So how hard is a 5.11+ anyway?
Lei Wang
I've been asked by many people interested in climbing just what these
numbers actually mean. While there are conversion charts galore available
to convert from YDS to French to German to Southwestern Swahili, I've
yet to come across a short article to actually tell the non-climber just
how hard a 5.11 is. So I typed one up, and here I offer it for your
critique:
===========================================================================
\What's 5.11+? Those holds look pretty small to me./
---------------------------------------------------
Easier climbs.
The majority of climbers can do these.
5.6
5.7 A reasonably fit person can do this grade in the beginning.
5.8 A reasonably fit person can do this grade after a month or two of
5.9 climbing.
A gifted or very gifted person can do this grade in the
beginning.
An absolute genetic mutant can do these routes first try, the first
time they climb.
5.10, (V0-V1)
Moderate climbs, climbing gets very fun and challenging here.
Many weekend warriors can do these.
Most regular climbers can do these.
A reasonably fit person can do this grade after quite a few months
of climbing and training, but it still will be difficult.
A very gifted person can do this grade after a month or two of
climbing.
A mutant can sometimes do an easier route of this difficulty their
first time climbing.
5.11, (V2-V4)
Difficult climbs, only the experienced climber succeed. Things get serious.
Many regular climbers can do these. You will be able to teach climbing
basics to others at this stage. A few weekend warriors can do these.
A reasonably fit person can do this grade after they become very
experienced climbers and much practice, many may be able to
do lower .11s, but not be able to do mid and high .11s.
A very gifted person can do this grade after 4 or 5 months of
climbing, the lower .11s anyway.
A mutant can do this grade after only 2 or 3 months of climbing.
5.12, (V5-V7)
Advanced climbs. Climbing becomes a major part of your life.
The climber becomes the 'expert' in their local group. Many gym regulars
can do these indoors. You are the center of attention if you can do
one of these outdoors.
A reasonably fit person can do a route of this grade only if they
are dedicated and spent most of their spare time training, and only
after many years of climbing.
A very gifted person can do this grade after a year of climbing,
if they stick to their schedule and average at least twice a week
climbing.
A mutant can do this grade in little more than 6 months if they
climb twice a week or more, or only 4-5 months if they throw
themselves into it.
5.13, (V8-V10)
Expert level, only the elite athletes succeed.
The climber becomes the person that others refer to with envy. You are the
resident climbing master at any local gym or gathering. If you enter
competitions you will win or finish in the top few. It is a rare sight
to see anyone even attempting one of these climbs outdoors, unless it's
a well known national area.
A reasonably fit person can probably never hope to do a route of
this difficulty, or perhaps one only after a lifetime of climbing.
A very gifted person can succeed if they are dedicated and let
climbing become a large part of their life, after perhaps 2 years
or more climbing.
A mutant can do this grade after a year and much hard work, and
after they learn decent climbing technique instead of just relying
on their immense power.
5.14, (V11-V14)
World class climbs, you will get your name and picture published in national
books and magazines if you succeed on a single one of these climbs.
Perhaps only two dozen people and two dozen routes in North America can lay
claim to this number. Average climbers will be very lucky if they witnesses
the actual ascent of one of these routes. One finger pull ups are the party
trick of choice.
A very gifted person can succeed if they climbing let becomes their
life, and climbing is their only aim. After a lifetime of total
dedication, perhaps they can see the faint light at the end of the
tunnel.
A mutant can do this grade after a few years and much hard work,
if they let climbing become a large part of their life.
5.15a, (V15+)
The mystical grade, no one is sure what these climbs are like, but there
have been guesses and attempts to claim this.
Only the absolute genetic mutant can even hope to achieve this, the
holy grail of climbing, after years or a lifetime of total dedication.
Phaedrus
Lei Wang wrote:
> <snip huge load of considered nonsense>
Your life must be a clanging void.
--
Phaedrus
Mad Dog
Lei Wang wrote:
>I've been asked by many people interested in climbing just what
Had you been reading this newsgroup a year or two ago, you would have
learned that 5.11 is easy for a newbie gym rat. Dude.
Mad "then why do old 5.9 routes seem so hard?" Dog
Mat Butler
Still doesn't mean a great deal to me. How's about a reference to some
Brit grades.
A. Brit
Chris Weaver
Phaedrus <gra...@dth.scot.nhs.uk> wrote in article
<348CF4...@dth.scot.nhs.uk>...
> Your life must be a clanging void.
Go back to boring the brits on uk.rec.climbing please.
Chris Weaver
Phaedrus
>
> Chris Weaver
--
Phaedrus
Chris Weaver
Phaedrus <gra...@dth.scot.nhs.uk> wrote in article
<348D5F...@dth.scot.nhs.uk>...
> Chris Weaver wrote:
> >
> > Phaedrus wrote:
> > > Your life must be a clanging void.
> >
> > Go back to boring the brits on uk.rec.climbing please.
>
> Nah
Oh well. It was worth a try.
CW
Steve Gray
Lei Wang <lei...@nortel.ca> said...
> I've been asked by many people interested in climbing just what these
>yet to come across a short article to actually tell the non-climber just
>critique:
>
>===========================================================================
> \What's 5.11+? Those holds look pretty small to me./
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>Easier climbs.
>The majority of climbers can do these.
>5.6
>5.7 A reasonably fit person can do this grade in the beginning.
Shit. I couldn't...
>5.8 A reasonably fit person can do this grade after a month or two of
>5.9 climbing.
Oh, bugger. Are you talking about toproping ? I bloody hope so... I've
never met anybody who could lead HVS/E1 in their second month of
climbing (to my knowledge), and if I did, they'd have to be re-
classified as belonging to your 'mutant' category.
--
Steve "Ego just imploded" Gray
Remove _xxx to email me.
VrticlVice
Mad Dog wrote:
>Had you been reading this newsgroup a year or two ago, you >would have learned
that 5.11 is easy for a newbie gym rat. >Dude.
Exactly Dude, we don't even bother with them anymore!
>Mad "then why do old 5.9 routes seem so hard?" Dog
You're just tired man, take a rest day.
John Henley
Buffalo Hard, MN
John R. Black
Lei Wang (lei...@nortel.ca) wrote:
: Easier climbs.
: The majority of climbers can do these.
:
I guess that means I'm "special"?
: 5.9 A gifted or very gifted person can do this grade in the
: beginning.
:
I'd say this is accurate; I teach climbing for UCD and once in a great
while someone gets up a 5.9 on their first day. These are usually thuggish
grunts by males with good strength/weight. Technique of course comes later.
: 5.10, (V0-V1)
: Most regular climbers can do these.
:
I'm even more special than I thought.
: 5.11, (V2-V4)
: Difficult climbs, only the experienced climber succeed. Things get serious.
: Many regular climbers can do these. You will be able to teach climbing
: basics to others at this stage. A few weekend warriors can do these.
:
I've been known to teach climbing even though I'm not at this stage (or
anywhere near it).
: A mutant can do this grade after only 2 or 3 months of climbing.
:
Actually, Ingar Shu reputedly did 5.11 his first day out. A mutant to
be sure, his first lead came about a year later in the 1990 World Cup at
Berkeley.
For the most part, I think your outline was pretty good.
john//
David Newton
Lei Wang wrote:
> 5.15a, (V15+)
> The mystical grade, no one is sure what these climbs are like, but there
> have been guesses and attempts to claim this.
> Only the absolute genetic mutant can even hope to achieve this, the
> holy grail of climbing, after years or a lifetime of total dedication.
Like Sharma, who, according to this, has been alive about two-three
years.
(Granted he's a mutant.)
d
BCLIMBIN
Who cares. Just eat, drink, and climb.
EG
Tim
I will say (from my limited experience trying 5.11- to 5.11+ on toprope)
that it's hard enough to give me myositis for two weeks in one case, and
pop me off in excess of 30 times in another. Friction 5.11's weren't as
bad, but then again that was on toprope.
One other thing - I'm pretty oafish (like cracks, hate sporty moves) so
my opinions are worth what you paid for them. :-)
--
Tim
"I want to be so HAPPY, the VEINS in my neck STAND OUT!!"
-- meta-x-psychoanalyze-pinhead
Lei Wang
I wrote:
> So how hard is a 5.11+ anyway? [lots of stuff deleted]
Oops, how silly of me. I forgot the Sherman disclaimer:
The stated comments are only accurate for sport climbing outdoors on
lead with amply bolted routes and a climber between 140 and 165 lbs
within 2 deltaV of the average ape index, who goes to the gym between
1 and 3 times a week, climbing semi-hard, supported by friends who
give him/her constant unwanted beta, with little previous gymnastic
experience and who doesn't go outdoors more than 6 times in the first
6 months of climbing.
A detailing of the exact modifiers of non-conforming climbers/rock
type/protection/environment will be given in a later article.
But seriously, I suppose even a normally gifted gym rat can redpoint
real .11s(not the jokes that all gyms put up once in a while) indoors
after 2 months if they climb 4-5 times a week and push hard. It all
depends on whether they want a life.
If they Onsight a .11 their first day, now That I would find hard
to believe unless I saw it with my own eyes.
If anyone is looking for the US/British/French/whatever difficulty
conversion chart, there's a good page at:
http://www.rockandice.com/beta/newblood/begcorner/begcorner.2.stml
Lei
Mike Faff
Steve Gray (St...@wcompsys.demon.co.uk_xxx) wrote:
: Oh, bugger. Are you talking about toproping ? I bloody hope so... I've
: never met anybody who could lead HVS/E1 in their second month of
: climbing (to my knowledge), and if I did, they'd have to be re-
: classified as belonging to your 'mutant' category.
I dunno.... I know people who could lead 5.10 SPORT in only a few
months. However, I am a trad climber and can barely lead 5.9 after
years (on and off...). I guess a lot of sport climbers can jump
through the 'easy' grades really quickly.
Mike
JAG
Lei Wang wrote:
>
> I wrote:
> > So how hard is a 5.11+ anyway? [lots of stuff deleted]
>
> Oops, how silly of me. I forgot the Sherman disclaimer:
> Lei
It's amazing how many people ripped on you for that good post.
Gyms flat out don't count, the nature of the holds are sufficiantly
different than most real rock and the foot work is definantly more
forgiving on the easier gym routes than real rock (flames expected).
Plus, real rock is more featured (read: confusing to the beginner), this
usually causes descision delays, weakening them as they go.
And, depending on the gym you go to, their ratings might be a joke.
Kiddie gyms, as we call them have bunches of "5.10" jug hauls, perfectly
laid out for beginners with strength. Half the gyms I visited fall into
this category.
I've taken over 3 dozen people out over the years. (i'm not a guide)
And, many when there were NO gyms. Imagine that! I must be an old fart!
These were just average Joes at my work, all were fit. Only 4 onsighted
5.7 at the local crag. Most did 5.6, several were tossed off of 5's.
One dude was 140lbs and perfectly ripped, yet could not do a 5.6!
My local beginner crag is Ralph Stover(Pa.) - home of some unusally hard
5.8's. I once seen a guy on sight the "Phone Booth" a pumpy 5.10a bulge
on his first day (but it's short, well chalked at the right places and
has very friendly holds).
I'm not bragging, merely assessing what I did in comparison to the guys
post.
Myself, started at Ralph Stover and I onsighted every 5.7 i tried since
day one. On sighted "Neanderthal" 5.8+++ as my 3rd 5.8 and did
"Obnoxious Partner" 5.8+++ on my 3rd attempt. (Think "modern times" of
Gunks fame for these two!!!)
These both occured within 3 weeks of me seeing a rope for the first
time. I did 5.10 in 12 weeks (hey, I kept a journal)
I did 5.12 in 3 years (still no gyms existed, and Stover didn't have any
12's when I started!). I lead trad 10 in 4yrs and lead trad 5.11 in
7yrs. I'm at this now for 9yrs and am beginning to give up hope on 5.13.
But then again i climb ONE time a week.
Being married with kids and starting when you're 25 doesn't help!
From my experience your assessment was very correct.
I will consider myself lucky if i ever do a 13 and as I always
suspected, 13a/b will be MY absolute limit.
Steve M.
Lei Wang wrote:
>
> I've been asked by many people interested in climbing just what these
> numbers actually mean.
<snip>
I like a three grade system myself.
1. I climbed it.
2. It kicked my butt.
3. I havn't tried it yet.
Steve M.
Krishnan N (Shyam)
Lei Wang (lei...@nortel.ca) wrote:
: If they Onsight a .11 their first day, now That I would find hard
: to believe unless I saw it with my own eyes.
I've seen it. There is a guy here who did a 6a boulder problem first
day. It was unbelievable watching him. Stupid guy kept getting injured
and slowly lost interest.
krishnan
kr...@india.hp.com
John R. Black
Steve M. (sfm...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Lei Wang wrote:
: >
: > I've been asked by many people interested in climbing just what these
: > numbers actually mean.
: I like a three grade system myself.
:
I've noticed a lot of folks seem averse to rating climbs. At my local
gym (the campus rec hall at UC Davis) most people don't rate the climbs
they put up. I guess the prevailing sentiment is that rating get people
caught up in a numbers game.
I can see where this is coming from, but personally I strongly prefer having
routes rated: it lets me know which routes I should bother attempting, and
it lets me know if/when I'm improving. Is that wrong?
john//
Todd Dibble
In article <66qo1i$or1$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, John R. Black wrote:
< Snip Snip >
>I've noticed a lot of folks seem averse to rating climbs. At my local
>gym (the campus rec hall at UC Davis) most people don't rate the climbs
>they put up. I guess the prevailing sentiment is that rating get people
>caught up in a numbers game.
>
>I can see where this is coming from, but personally I strongly prefer having
>routes rated: it lets me know which routes I should bother attempting, and
>it lets me know if/when I'm improving. Is that wrong?
At my local climbing gym, the supervisors are intimidated to rate routes
they set. Not so much because of the whole numbers game, but because most
of the frequent climbers complain that the route is mis-rated, and I have
even seen some of the climbers throwing in holds here and there so they
can finish the route or make it harder.
I think rated routes are nice because it may give you a sense of accomplishment
if you are progressing in your climbing ability, as well as giving you some
idea of what the heck you are climing. Although, I know I would be more
inclined to try a non-rated route to see if I could do it, rather than if
it was rated at a level i didn't think I was ready for.
That and I've seen too many people assume that they can climb a 5.8 or 5.10
outside since they can do it with relative ease in the gym, however, in
my experince . . . rating does not hold the same outdoors as it does indoors.
me
Thomas Goller
In article <3485417D...@nis.lanl.gov>,
Walt Wehner <wwe...@nis.lanl.gov> wrote:
> Because when it comes right down to it,
>the originator of this "5.11+" thread is dead wrong, IMO. Your
>performance on your first day of climbing does not necessarily predict
>how good you will eventually be.
Perhaps you misunderstood my post. The meaning was, "If you are a
mutant, you can probably onsight a 5.9 on your first day," and not
"If you onsight a 5.9, then you are necessarily a mutant, then you will
necessarily love climbing and work out at least twice a week, then you will
steadily improve this way without losing interest, then you will stick to this
for at least 2 years and do a 5.13+.
There are no "100% satisfaction or your money back" guarantees. For proof
of non-liability for the female gymnast in question please refer to the
Sherman Disclaimer in my previous article in this thread.
Lei
(Ha-Ha, come on people, put a smile on your faces)
Rawdomg
In article <66koto$g...@crchh327.us.nortel.com>, "Lei Wang" <lei...@nortel.ca>
writes:
> But seriously, I suppose even a normally gifted gym rat can redpoint
real
>.11s(not the jokes that all gyms put up once in a while) indoors
I have a hard time with the pairing of the adjectives "real" and "indoors".
Unless somebody has built a roof over a rock face somewhere that I don't know
about.
Mike
Rawdomg
In article <66qo1i$or1$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, bla...@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu
(John R. Black) writes:
>I can see where this is coming from, but personally I strongly prefer
>having
routes rated: it lets me know which routes I should bother attempting,
>and
it lets me know if/when I'm improving. Is that wrong?
Not necessarily wrong. But you could be missing some fun and instructive
climbing on those "too hard" routes. And getting up a bigger number doesn't,
in and of itself, mean you're getting better. (But if you've been trying it
all winter and finally sent it, then yes).
Mike "Looking for a 12 step program to wean myself off the numbers"
Tim
> I have a hard time pairing the adjectives "real" and "indoors". Unless > somebody has built a roof over a rock face somewhere that I don't know
> about.
>
> Mike
Took the words right out of my keyboard.
--
Tim
"If voting could actually change anything, it would be illegal."
-- extraneous comments in someone's source code
Adam S. Toline
Thomas Goller wrote in message <66u90j$5...@crchh327.us.nortel.com>...
>In article <3485417D...@nis.lanl.gov>,
>Walt Wehner <wwe...@nis.lanl.gov> wrote:
>
>>
>
> Perhaps you misunderstood my post. The meaning was, "If you are a
>mutant, you can probably onsight a 5.9 on your first day,"
Gotta disagree somewhat. I have been climbing about 3 and a half years.
I onsighted several (toprope) routes rated 5.9 my very first day (it was'nt
pretty but I did it). Then some 10A's and B's about a week later.
I am no mutant! If i was I would be onsighting mid 12 by now. As It
is, I am only 50% in the 5.11 range. And I climb and train quite a bit.
My point is that everyone drops in on the learning curve differently,
and then progresses rapidly for a while, then flatlines some. I know people
who managed 5.6 at first, cruised into 5.10 then screeech....
I also know someone who managed hard 5.10 pretty quick and then stayed
at 5.10 for a year.
I do believe that anyone with average to above average athletic talent
can climb a 5.9 face route damn fast (if not immediately). I had a long
history of weight training before climbing but was never involved in any
"movement sports" to give me any heightened awareness of body positioning.
More than anything i think it was just simple desire to succeed at the
coolest thing I had ever started doing... :-)