EVINRUDE 225 Fitch Ram Year 2003
Sam Marcum
repeats then "Check Engine" light comes on. If advancing trottle
quickly to higher than 3200 RPM then no problem. Any ideas as to what
is happening? This is easily repeatable and does this with any fuel
(87 or 89 Octane).
Billgran
its memory that tells what malfunction occured, just like a late model car.
A trained tech with a Palm Pilot or laptop with the diagnostic software can
figure it out easily. You are in warranty, see your dealer. My guess would
be there are loose or intermittent battery connections somewhere, or the
crankshaft position sensor flakey, out of adjustment, or loose. An
intermittent throttle position sensor can also give a similar symptom.
Bill Grannis
service manager
K. Smith
I assume being a brand new expensive still under warranty engine
you've already tried dealers & not got an answer???
So it might be that you are experiencing what people have been
putting up with since Ficht was first released over 5 years ago?? So
far it's cost 7000 jobs, 1.3 billion of retirees money & countless
peoples' boating enjoyment.
Our opinion is;
(i) The Fichts deliberately run very very lean at low revs to get
through the EPA regs, lean mixtures create extraordinary chamber
temps, in a 2 stroke particularly the piston & rings.
(ii) A further aggravation is the lack of atomisation. OMC claimed
250 psi when they first released Ficht then in late 99 completely
changed the system & claimed a doubling of the injection pressure to
450-500 psi, now Bombardier have simultaneously claimed they haven't
changed the Ficht system yet the claim is back down to 250 psi.
Whatever the truth?? an impact injector pump like a ficht injector
cannot supply enough pressure to properly atomise the fuel. So add
that to the lean mixture & even more chamber temps follow.
(iii) The Fichts run lean at low to mid revs, say under 1800 to 2000
& normally at the claimed levels of lean (as much as 40-1 was
originally spruiked) & with poor atomisation it would surprise
nobody if they were detonating whenever at these revs in that mode,
however we feel they are so lean that they're not. This is because
on the information so far there just isn't enough fuel there to even
sustain detonation. So lean they need to repeatedly fire the plug
just to hopefully get ignition!!!
(iv) The lack of detonation in para (iii) is a two edged sword
because the heat is still being built in the chamber, the piston
being totally uncooled in any manner particularly so.
(v) Once you spool up out of the lean mode then the ecu delivers a
"proper" mixture close to 14-1 & suddenly there is enough fuel in a
hot chamber to sustain detonation & once detonation starts under
power it can quickly become self sustaining.
(vi) I hope your troubles are just some widget gone screwy however
your description is not much different from the complaints of 99
onwards & as we all know Ficht failed. The head bozo at OMC actually
admitted a 1 in 5 failure rate!!!
(vii) A likely scenario is you are getting a glitch at 3200 because
around there the engine is in severe detonation (you won't hear it)
& the vibrations are causing all sorts of ancillary symptoms.
Remember earlier ones were detonating so fiercely, spark plugs
broke, the injectors & plumbing started to come adrift from the cyl
heads!!! till the USCG made them recall them for safety. The fact
that a sensor here & there gets triggered is not a surprise & as
expected the dealer can replace whatever only to have the same
"apparent" problem recur, the problem is the detonation which will
over time wreck the engine if you don't drive it very carefully;
(a) Under prop it so it can't see any real load at low to middle
revs. Yes less top end & more fuel but it might save you lots of
grief.
(b) Within reason try to avoid long periods in they dangerous lean
heat buildup mode say in no wake zones, either back right off or
power straight through.
(c) Be aware the dealers have no clue about any of this they only
know what they're fed by the sellers & that's just BS, this is a
design fault pure & simple which has killed all the previous Ficht
attempts. Until Bombardier announce how they have managed to run
engines lean at power when the rest of the engine world can't, then
alas Ficht Evinrude engines are doomed to being very unreliable &
having all that goes with that.
Good Luck
K
Harry Krause
> Sam Marcum wrote:
>>
>> At 3200 RPM hesitates or stops for instant, catches up instantly and
>> repeats then "Check Engine" light comes on. If advancing trottle
>> quickly to higher than 3200 RPM then no problem. Any ideas as to what
>> is happening? This is easily repeatable and does this with any fuel
>> (87 or 89 Octane).
>
> I assume being a brand new expensive still under warranty engine
> you've already tried dealers & not got an answer???
>
> So it might be that you are experiencing what people have been
> putting up with since Ficht was first released over 5 years ago?? So
> far it's cost 7000 jobs, 1.3 billion of retirees money & countless
> peoples' boating enjoyment.
>
> Our opinion is;
You mean, *your* opinion and *your* opinion isn't worth the price of a
cigarette butt.
JDavis1277
someone with "knowledge". Of course, "The K" has no direct knowledge of the
FICHT family of outboards. However, you can bet she'll never miss an
opportunity to bad mouth, at extremely great length, any OMC product. Perhaps
she was badly frightened by an OMC product while a child???
Do you think "The K" missed the response to Sam's question from Bill Grannis?
Not bloody likely... yet she responds????? anyway.
Butch
1999 FICHT Just Keeps on Running Perfectly
Skipper
> Another hare brained "The K of Oz" response to someone seeking assistance
> from someone with "knowledge". Of course, "The K" has no direct knowledge
> of the FICHT family of outboards. However, you can bet she'll never miss an
> opportunity to bad mouth, at extremely great length, any OMC product.
> Perhaps she was badly frightened by an OMC product while a child???
> Do you think "The K" missed the response to Sam's question from Bill
> Grannis? Not bloody likely... yet she responds????? anyway.
> 1999 FICHT Just Keeps on Running Perfectly
Karen should be congratulated for warning NG subscribers of the flawed
Ficht technology and predicting that it would bring OMC down. She was
*proven* correct in her assumptions. Too bad you were unable to benefit
from her wisdom.
--
Skipper
Joe
> Karen should be congratulated for warning NG subscribers of the flawed
> Ficht technology and predicting that it would bring OMC down. She was
> *proven* correct in her assumptions. Too bad you were unable to benefit
> from her wisdom.
Up until recently they have been pure junk.
Parts obtained by Bombardier after the buy out were found to be outside of
accept tolerances and most scraped.
Anybody running a pre buyout Fict is on borrowed time. The defects went far
deeper than just the well published fuel problems.
del cecchi
"Joe" <J...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:BKjha.7173$gp1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Hey Joe, how come none of the boating groups or the dealers or anyone
let anyone know that the OMC stuff was "junk"? How come OMC wasn't
honest with the public? I never saw anything that said "Our motors
haven't been reliable because we lost control of our manufacturing
process. We are extending our warrantee to make it up to the folks that
trusted us."
Or is this just another "They used to be crap but all fixed now, trust
us" story? And how would you know any of this in the first place? Why
should we believe you? Me I own a Merc, but am fascinated by the whole
story.
Del Cecchi
>
>
Clams Canino
Well that's what we wait to see. There is no doubt that the earlier
FICHT's were somewhat fucht up, suffering from both design flaws and
workmanship issues. Bombadier claims to be building a good product now
<shrug> time will tell.
Me? If I had to go new I'd stick with Mercury. I'm not saying there *as
good* a product since Brunswick got a hold of them,. but I still feel
they've always been better than OMC.
-W
"del cecchi" <dce...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:H3mha.40$ie2....@eagle.america.net...
Harry Krause
Methiks Karen of Oz got a bad batch of batteries for her vibrator.
Joe
> Hey Joe, how come none of the boating groups or the dealers or anyone
> let anyone know that the OMC stuff was "junk"?
Are you kidding? The problems are documented everywhere. Just look around.
I personally know of two dealers that have switched to Merc.
They have both told me numerous horror stories. Not just the fuel problem
but deep engine problems (cranks, rods, pistons, badly machined cases, etc.
Supposedly Bombardier now has a handle on it and they are now a top notch
engine.
> How come OMC wasn't
> honest with the public? I never saw anything that said "Our motors
> haven't been reliable because we lost control of our manufacturing
> process.
Of course not, they were going bankrupt.
> Or is this just another "They used to be crap but all fixed now, trust
> us" story? And how would you know any of this in the first place? Why
> should we believe you?
Like I said, look around, the problems people have had with them are all
over the internet.
Try talking to some people that have owned them.
Very few that I have spoken to are happy with the FICHT
Skipper
>> Hey Joe, how come none of the boating groups or the dealers or anyone
>> let anyone know that the OMC stuff was "junk"?
> Are you kidding? The problems are documented everywhere. Just look around.
> I personally know of two dealers that have switched to Merc.
> They have both told me numerous horror stories. Not just the fuel problem
> but deep engine problems (cranks, rods, pistons, badly machined cases, etc.
> Supposedly Bombardier now has a handle on it and they are now a top notch
> engine.
Because of serious design, quality and management problems in its
aircraft divisions, Bombardier is a good bet to go belly up.
--
Skipper
del cecchi
consistently and have never seen anyone with any official connection to
OMC say anything significantly negative about the OMC motors in general
or Ficht in particular. Not Dave Brown, not Bill Grannis, not Joe(30
years with OMC), nobody. They didn't necessarily say much positive in
some cases but they didn't say "run away, buy something else".
Karen was the only one, whether her reasons were correct or not.
It is only now that it is starting to leak out in the columns in the
magazines "Oh yeah, those 98 Fichts had a lot of problems."
There are some folks out there, not necessarily the ones named above,
but those in the boating media who must have a hard time shaving in the
morning for they shouldn't be able to look at themselves in the mirror
if things were really as bad as it is beginning to seem.
I'm still an agnostic on the whole affair because of lack of data.
del cecchi
>
Joe
> years with OMC), nobody.
I'd like to hear from Joe(30 years with OMC) on this subject myself. I have
personal dealt with him and I know he is a straight shooter.
I think he retired prior to the FICHT's though.
K. Smith
There ya go the sexist nasty Harry we all know.
If you or anyone wants to discuss the nitty gritty of why Ficht
can't work I'm still waiting over 5 yrs now & gee all I've ever got
from you & the dealers is personal abuse. Seems to me they & you
should be asking me more questions on why I say what I say about
Ficht rather than trying to censor me into silence... again.
Remember Harry I never just said it's crap I always explained
exactly why. Till Bombardier actually admit what they've done to get
engines to run lean at power successfully they will be a DON'T BUY &
already the 2003 model complaints have begun.
K
K
K. Smith
>
> > Hey Joe, how come none of the boating groups or the dealers or anyone
> > let anyone know that the OMC stuff was "junk"?
>
> Are you kidding? The problems are documented everywhere. Just look around.
> I personally know of two dealers that have switched to Merc.
> They have both told me numerous horror stories. Not just the fuel problem
> but deep engine problems (cranks, rods, pistons, badly machined cases, etc.
> Supposedly Bombardier now has a handle on it and they are now a top notch
> engine.
>
Joe all this is consistent with detonation damage. In Aero 4
strokes they can even tulip the valves with cyl pressure spikes
going as high as 1800 psi!! After the engine is wrecked yes the
pistons & other components will be trashed but it doesn't follow
they casued the problem, what does is running lean at any sort of
power.
Those dealers you mentioon?? they've been making good many for many
years fixing 2 stroke old style OBs they somehow went lean at power,
so why can't anyone even consider that excactly the same problem is
the root cause of the Ficht debacle??
> > How come OMC wasn't
> > honest with the public? I never saw anything that said "Our motors
> > haven't been reliable because we lost control of our manufacturing
> > process.
>
> Of course not, they were going bankrupt.
>
> > Or is this just another "They used to be crap but all fixed now, trust
> > us" story? And how would you know any of this in the first place? Why
> > should we believe you?
>
> Like I said, look around, the problems people have had with them are all
> over the internet.
> Try talking to some people that have owned them.
> Very few that I have spoken to are happy with the FICHT
So why would the Bombardier version be any different?? they have
actually boasted that they've NOT changed the Ficht injection
system. Which again is curious seeing they only claim 250 psi when
OMC claimed 450 to 500 psi???
No matter Bill tells me that's just the advertising department; but
which one??? ;-)
K
K. Smith
But I bet you'd "stick with" a Merc EFI or 4 stoke & not a lean
mixture Optimax;-)
K
K. Smith
Del?? is that really you Del??
I totally agree with you of course but you are usually such a
gentelman I'm chuffed even you think enough is enough.
Well done.
K
K. Smith
>
> > Karen should be congratulated for warning NG subscribers of the flawed
> > Ficht technology and predicting that it would bring OMC down. She was
> > *proven* correct in her assumptions. Too bad you were unable to benefit
> > from her wisdom.
>
> Up until recently they have been pure junk.
>
> Parts obtained by Bombardier after the buy out were found to be outside of
> accept tolerances and most scraped.
Nothing to do with "parts" this is just a cover for a known design
defect.
>
> Anybody running a pre buyout Fict is on borrowed time. The defects went far
> deeper than just the well published fuel problems.
Nothing to do with fuel, oil, plugs nor any of the other bogus
excuses.
The holy grail of IC engines is to get them to run lean at any sort
of power & not destroy themselves with detonation, lots of the big
engine builders have tried & all have conceded defeat.
Bombardier are just about to try another deceptive marketing
campaign but think it matters they've dropped the word Ficht.
It won't work for exactly the same reasons we explained in early
99, because it can't work.
K
K. Smith
>
> Another hare brained "The K of Oz" response to someone seeking assistance from
> someone with "knowledge". Of course, "The K" has no direct knowledge of the
> FICHT family of outboards. However, you can bet she'll never miss an
> opportunity to bad mouth, at extremely great length, any OMC product. Perhaps
> she was badly frightened by an OMC product while a child???
>
> Do you think "The K" missed the response to Sam's question from Bill Grannis?
> Not bloody likely... yet she responds????? anyway.
>
> Butch
> 1999 FICHT Just Keeps on Running Perfectly
Hi Butch a little bit of pre-season personal abuse hey, but gee
still no rejoinder on the technical issues???
Despite your engine running fine your boat value has been trashed
just because it's got a dreaded Ficht on the back. Don't be bitter
with me I specifically told "you" all about it as soon as they were
released & you still listened to the spam NG dealers.
As for Bill's advice??? what you actually consider "take it to a
dealer" to be advice??? Hmmm you have been bitten & still don't
realise it.
Best Regards,
K
Harry Krause
> Harry Krause wrote:
>>
>> JDavis1277 wrote:
>>
>> > Another hare brained "The K of Oz" response to someone seeking assistance from
>> > someone with "knowledge". Of course, "The K" has no direct knowledge of the
>> > FICHT family of outboards. However, you can bet she'll never miss an
>> > opportunity to bad mouth, at extremely great length, any OMC product. Perhaps
>> > she was badly frightened by an OMC product while a child???
>> >
>> > Do you think "The K" missed the response to Sam's question from Bill Grannis?
>> > Not bloody likely... yet she responds????? anyway.
>> >
>> > Butch
>> > 1999 FICHT Just Keeps on Running Perfectly
>> >
>> > The K of Oz wrote: Undiluted crap snipped >Sam Marcum wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> At 3200 RPM hesitates or stops for instant, catches up instantly and
>> >>> repeats then "Check Engine" light comes on. If advancing trottle
>> >>> quickly to higher than 3200 RPM then no problem. Any ideas as to what
>> >>> is happening? This is easily repeatable and does this with any fuel
>> >>> (87 or 89 Octane).
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Methiks Karen of Oz got a bad batch of batteries for her vibrator.
>
>
> There ya go the sexist nasty Harry we all know.
Vibrators are fun in sex play, Karen. Read a book about sex play sometime.
> Remember Harry I never just said it's crap I always explained
> exactly why. Till Bombardier actually admit what they've done to get
> engines to run lean at power successfully they will be a DON'T BUY &
> already the 2003 model complaints have begun.
>
> K
Really? Got a statistically significant source of information on 2003
Bombardier outboards? Care to cite it?
Harry Krause
>
> Despite your engine running fine your boat value has been trashed
> just because it's got a dreaded Ficht on the back.
Are you now posing as an expert on boat resale prices?
Idiot.
Skipper
>>> Methiks Karen of Oz got a bad batch of batteries for her vibrator.
>> There ya go, the sexist nasty Harry we all know.
> Vibrators are fun in sex play, Karen. Read a book about sex play sometime.
And once more Harry takes a position of authority on a subject for which
he has no personal experience. Methinks Harry's most profound
experiences have been with 'methicks'.
--
Skipper
Fredo
Fredo
"JDavis1277" <jdavi...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030329104753...@mb-fp.aol.com...
Mark - boatbasin.com
The mechanics were amazed at the lack of quality control displayed. My lead
mechanic commented that it looked like the engine was just thrown together
to get it out the door. I've heard this same line of comments from my
mechanics, and other mechanics at other nearby yards at least a dozen times.
I've seen some quality control issues with Mercs and Yamaha's also, but
usually one goof on simple items, not a half a dozen problems on a single
engine.
"del cecchi" <dce...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:H3mha.40$ie2....@eagle.america.net...
>
Mark - boatbasin.com
engine in the last couple of years before OMC's demise, it has become very
hard to sell boats with one of them bolted to it. Whether or not the engine
is a lemon, because of peoples perception of the engine as problematic, the
resale value of the boats has suffered.
As far as Bombardier working out the problems, I have had personal
experiences with them lying and cheating there way out of past design
defects. Bombardier is in my opinion the worst company in regards to
solving customers problems with defective products. The problems with
Sea-Doo's 951 motor had to be dragged into a class action lawsuit to get
them to change the design. They still never admitted there was a problem.
I have owned 6 Bombardier products over the last few years, three of them
failed.
"Harry Krause" <harry...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wkadnYBmFZp...@comcast.com...
JDavis1277
capacity to read and think is lower even than Harry has stated.
Butch
Skipper said: Jeez, never mind. B
JDavis1277
The debate, if you can all it a debate, rages on.
I can only go by my personal experience, which is:
Bought a boat with a new 1999 115 hp FICHT four years ago this month.
Had it back to the dealer once for a remapping(??) of the computer.
Have had it serviced every year by an authorized dealer.
Had to replace the plugs annually.
Performance has been faultless and have never needed repairs.
Boat is used year round and engine now has approximately 400 hours of hard
use.
Engine is flushed after every use.
I can't speak to resale value, but everyone who has been out on the boat with
me has admired the engine's performance and lack of smelly exhaust. I owned my
last boat for over 20 years and expect that my widow will be disposing of this
boat. Resale value is simply not an issue for me. If it was a factor I'd
always buy only used late model boat/motor/trailer combinations of the greatest
popularity. Instead I buy what I like best and use it virtually forever.
Shucks, my pickup is a 90 Ford diesel.
If what I bought is an old Lawn-Boy lawn mower I'd like to corner the market.
;=)
Butch
Fredo wrote: >Yeah it was probably an old Lawn-Boy Lawn mower.
Skipper
> The debate, if you can all it a debate, rages on. I can only go by my
> personal experience, which is: Bought a boat with a new 1999 115 hp FICHT
> four years ago this month.
Jeeze, such an ignorant opinionated newbie!
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Well Skipper, if you've concluded that "The K's" spewing was/is wisdom, your
> capacity to read and think is lower even than Harry has stated.
Suggest you Google Karen's warnings about the Ficht issue if you have
the capacity. Even you might learn.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
> Actually Harry, because the public has become informed and fearful of this
> engine in the last couple of years before OMC's demise, it has become very
> hard to sell boats with one of them bolted to it. Whether or not the engine
> is a lemon, because of peoples perception of the engine as problematic, the
> resale value of the boats has suffered.
My points of contention with the Bitch of Oz:
She has no hands-on experience with these or any other modern outboards.
She condemns entire lines and model years of model outboards.
She's never attended a training school to work on modern outboards.
Her statements fly in the face of the actual experience of owners.
I had a 1998 Merc Opti. I got four years of relatively trouble-free
service out of it. It never failed to start quickly and run well. When I
disposed of the rig, I got precisely what I thought for it, within a
couple of hundred dollars. The fact that it had an Opti on the stern had
no negative impact.
Anecdotal, to be sure, but based on experience and reality.
>
> As far as Bombardier working out the problems, I have had personal
> experiences with them lying and cheating there way out of past design
> defects. Bombardier is in my opinion the worst company in regards to
> solving customers problems with defective products. The problems with
> Sea-Doo's 951 motor had to be dragged into a class action lawsuit to get
> them to change the design. They still never admitted there was a problem.
> I have owned 6 Bombardier products over the last few years, three of them
> failed.
>
>
I have no opinion on Bombardier.
Sam Marcum
I appreciate your input. I just wanted to have an idea of what is
going on before trailering it 50 miles back to the Marina.
Cheers !!!
"Billgran" <bill...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<e8Wga.64028$M7.13...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
> Since the check engine lite comes on, the computer stores a "fault code" in
> its memory that tells what malfunction occured, just like a late model car.
> A trained tech with a Palm Pilot or laptop with the diagnostic software can
> figure it out easily. You are in warranty, see your dealer. My guess would
> be there are loose or intermittent battery connections somewhere, or the
> crankshaft position sensor flakey, out of adjustment, or loose. An
> intermittent throttle position sensor can also give a similar symptom.
>
> Bill Grannis
> service manager
del cecchi
"K. Smith" <ksm...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3E86A9AC...@tpg.com.au...
That last part was me. I think you have to watch the quoting and
attributions.
And I am always a gentleman.
del cecchi
del cecchi
"Mark - boatbasin.com" <boat...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:JlDha.16139$VM3.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> Del, we just had to do an insurance job on a 99 OMC ficht for a
customer.
> The mechanics were amazed at the lack of quality control displayed.
My lead
> mechanic commented that it looked like the engine was just thrown
together
> to get it out the door. I've heard this same line of comments from my
> mechanics, and other mechanics at other nearby yards at least a dozen
times.
>
> I've seen some quality control issues with Mercs and Yamaha's also,
but
> usually one goof on simple items, not a half a dozen problems on a
single
> engine.
>
>
never whispered a word about quality problems two years ago. As a wise
man once asked "what did they know and when did they know it?"
This is a fascinating story to watch. Again I have no opinion on design
or reliablity, because I have no data.
del cecchi
Sam Marcum
bought it from wasn't participating in the 7-year warranty so I only
have a three year.
Any way, I'll quit easing along at 1 to 3 k RPM thanks to you input.
sam
Harry Krause <harry...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ErSdnU90MI8...@comcast.com>...
> K. Smith wrote:
>
> > Sam Marcum wrote:
> >>
> >> At 3200 RPM hesitates or stops for instant, catches up instantly and
> >> repeats then "Check Engine" light comes on. If advancing trottle
> >> quickly to higher than 3200 RPM then no problem. Any ideas as to what
> >> is happening? This is easily repeatable and does this with any fuel
> >> (87 or 89 Octane).
> >
> > I assume being a brand new expensive still under warranty engine
> > you've already tried dealers & not got an answer???
> >
> > So it might be that you are experiencing what people have been
> > putting up with since Ficht was first released over 5 years ago?? So
> > far it's cost 7000 jobs, 1.3 billion of retirees money & countless
> > peoples' boating enjoyment.
> >
> > Our opinion is;
>
>
> You mean, *your* opinion and *your* opinion isn't worth the price of a
> cigarette butt.
>
>
>
> >
> > (i) The Fichts deliberately run very very lean at low revs to get
> > through the EPA regs, lean mixtures create extraordinary chamber
> > temps, in a 2 stroke particularly the piston & rings.
> >
> > (ii) A further aggravation is the lack of atomisation. OMC claimed
> > 250 psi when they first released Ficht then in late 99 completely
> > changed the system & claimed a doubling of the injection pressure to
> > 450-500 psi, now Bombardier have simultaneously claimed they haven't
> > changed the Ficht system yet the claim is back down to 250 psi.
> > Whatever the truth?? an impact injector pump like a ficht injector
> > cannot supply enough pressure to properly atomise the fuel. So add
> > that to the lean mixture & even more chamber temps follow.
> >
> > (iii) The Fichts run lean at low to mid revs, say under 1800 to 2000
> > & normally at the claimed levels of lean (as much as 40-1 was
> > originally spruiked) & with poor atomisation it would surprise
> > nobody if they were detonating whenever at these revs in that mode,
> > however we feel they are so lean that they're not. This is because
> > on the information so far there just isn't enough fuel there to even
> > sustain detonation. So lean they need to repeatedly fire the plug
> > just to hopefully get ignition!!!
> >
> > (iv) The lack of detonation in para (iii) is a two edged sword
> > because the heat is still being built in the chamber, the piston
> > being totally uncooled in any manner particularly so.
> >
> > (v) Once you spool up out of the lean mode then the ecu delivers a
> > "proper" mixture close to 14-1 & suddenly there is enough fuel in a
> > hot chamber to sustain detonation & once detonation starts under
> > power it can quickly become self sustaining.
> >
> > (vi) I hope your troubles are just some widget gone screwy however
> > your description is not much different from the complaints of 99
> > onwards & as we all know Ficht failed. The head bozo at OMC actually
> > admitted a 1 in 5 failure rate!!!
> >
> > (vii) A likely scenario is you are getting a glitch at 3200 because
> > around there the engine is in severe detonation (you won't hear it)
> > & the vibrations are causing all sorts of ancillary symptoms.
> > Remember earlier ones were detonating so fiercely, spark plugs
> > broke, the injectors & plumbing started to come adrift from the cyl
> > heads!!! till the USCG made them recall them for safety. The fact
> > that a sensor here & there gets triggered is not a surprise & as
> > expected the dealer can replace whatever only to have the same
> > "apparent" problem recur, the problem is the detonation which will
> > over time wreck the engine if you don't drive it very carefully;
> >
> > (a) Under prop it so it can't see any real load at low to middle
> > revs. Yes less top end & more fuel but it might save you lots of
> > grief.
> > (b) Within reason try to avoid long periods in they dangerous lean
> > heat buildup mode say in no wake zones, either back right off or
> > power straight through.
> > (c) Be aware the dealers have no clue about any of this they only
> > know what they're fed by the sellers & that's just BS, this is a
> > design fault pure & simple which has killed all the previous Ficht
> > attempts. Until Bombardier announce how they have managed to run
> > engines lean at power when the rest of the engine world can't, then
> > alas Ficht Evinrude engines are doomed to being very unreliable &
> > having all that goes with that.
> >
> >
> > Good Luck
> >
> >
> > K
Harry Krause
> "Mark - boatbasin.com" <boat...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:JlDha.16139$VM3.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>> Del, we just had to do an insurance job on a 99 OMC ficht for a
> customer.
>> The mechanics were amazed at the lack of quality control displayed.
> My lead
>> mechanic commented that it looked like the engine was just thrown
> together
>> to get it out the door. I've heard this same line of comments from my
>> mechanics, and other mechanics at other nearby yards at least a dozen
> times.
>>
>> I've seen some quality control issues with Mercs and Yamaha's also,
> but
>> usually one goof on simple items, not a half a dozen problems on a
> single
>> engine.
>>
>>
> Thanks for the post. It makes me sad that the press and the dealers
> never whispered a word about quality problems two years ago. As a wise
> man once asked "what did they know and when did they know it?"
What makes you conclude that neither the press nor dealers commented on
OMC quality issues two years ago? It's not something you'd necessarily
find in a google search.
Billgran
Are you sure it is a 2003 and not a 2002 model? What is the model number on
the engine?
Bill Grannis
service manager
"Sam Marcum" <Sam_M...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:84251114.03033...@posting.google.com...
Skipper
> What makes you conclude that neither the press nor dealers commented on
> OMC quality issues two years ago? It's not something you'd necessarily
> find in a google search.
A quick Google search will show Karen was detailing Ficht problems and
taking on the dealers two years ago. You disagreed with her and she ate
your lunch over this subject. Dave Brown argued the subject with her and
ended up taking a two year hiatus from the group. She was proven
correct. Give Karen her due.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> My points of contention with the Bitch of Oz:
> I had a 1998 Merc Opti. I got four years of relatively trouble-free
> service out of it. It never failed to start quickly and run well. When I
> disposed of the rig, I got precisely what I thought for it, within a
> couple of hundred dollars. The fact that it had an Opti on the stern had
> no negative impact.
Can we assume you used that 17' Sea Pro in trade for the Parker and that
your "$300,000 custom lobstaboat" tales were fabrications?
> I have no opinion on Bombardier.
That's a relief.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
It's amazing the conclusions to which your mind leaps. You should have
had it replaced, along with your knees. It would have been a lot less
painful, too.
Such a pleasure to watch Skipper and Karen of Oz agree with each other
on politics and "technical" matters, since neither of them have
credentials in either.
Danny Dickerson
> >
> > > Hey Joe, how come none of the boating groups or the dealers or
> anyone
> > > let anyone know that the OMC stuff was "junk"?
> >
> around.
> > I personally know of two dealers that have switched to Merc.
> > They have both told me numerous horror stories. Not just the fuel
> problem
> > but deep engine problems (cranks, rods, pistons, badly machined cases,
> etc.
> > Supposedly Bombardier now has a handle on it and they are now a top
> notch
> > engine.
> >
> >
> > > honest with the public? I never saw anything that said "Our motors
> > > haven't been reliable because we lost control of our manufacturing
> > > process.
> >
> >
> trust
> > > us" story? And how would you know any of this in the first place?
> Why
> > > should we believe you?
> >
> all
> > over the internet.
> > Try talking to some people that have owned them.
> > Very few that I have spoken to are happy with the FICHT
> >
> consistently and have never seen anyone with any official connection to
> OMC say anything significantly negative about the OMC motors in general
> or Ficht in particular. Not Dave Brown, not Bill Grannis, not Joe(30
> years with OMC), nobody. They didn't necessarily say much positive in
> some cases but they didn't say "run away, buy something else".
>
> Karen was the only one, whether her reasons were correct or not.
>
> It is only now that it is starting to leak out in the columns in the
> magazines "Oh yeah, those 98 Fichts had a lot of problems."
>
> There are some folks out there, not necessarily the ones named above,
> but those in the boating media who must have a hard time shaving in the
> morning for they shouldn't be able to look at themselves in the mirror
> if things were really as bad as it is beginning to seem.
>
> I'm still an agnostic on the whole affair because of lack of data.
>
> del cecchi
> >
>
>
I remember reading an article about Ficht failures about two years ago, but
I forget
the magazine. I read it after hearing about the problems in this newsgroup,
so I paid
close attention. The article mentioned the plug fouling and head blowing
problems. It tied them to carbon build up and stated the problem had been
fixed. It also stated that the problem seemed to be more common in
saltwater usage than fresh, probably because the buildup was primarily
caused during extended low speed running while trolling.
That said, I do not know anyone with a Ficht.
Danny
Harry Krause
> del cecchi <dce...@msn.com> wrote in message
>
>> >
>> > > How come OMC wasn't
>> > > honest with the public? I never saw anything that said "Our motors
>> > > haven't been reliable because we lost control of our manufacturing
>> > > process.
Kinda naive, eh? Name the manufacturers in any industry who do that
without government prodding...
>
>> >
>> Been reading the Bass Fishing board intermittently, and this newsgroup
>> consistently and have never seen anyone with any official connection to
>> OMC say anything significantly negative about the OMC motors in general
>> or Ficht in particular.
On the other hand, I don't recall anyone officially connected to the
factory and therefore in the know at Mercury, Yahama, Honda, Suzuki
making regular "appearances" in this newsgroup or any of the public,
non-branded message boards. I don't consider "dealers" officially
connected to the factory in the way they'd be "in the know."
Boat and motor manufacturers of all sorts avoid posting in newsgroups
like the plague. Haven't you noticed? How many would want to, say,
encounter an idiot like Skipper?
Skipper
> Boat and motor manufacturers of all sorts avoid posting in newsgroups
> like the plague. Haven't you noticed? How many would want to, say,
> encounter an idiot like Skipper?
You've not posted much during the last six months about that fabulous
custom $300,000 "lobstaboat" you claim to own. Did you trade it in for
that Parker? Are you upset that you've been outed?
--
Skipper
Sam Marcum
Thank you all for your information. I just returned this week from
taking the Evinrude 225 on a 200 mile trip from Fredericksburg,
Virginia to the Chesapeake Bay and back on the Rappahannock River.
About half way down I ran aground in the middle of the river with the
3,000 lb. (loaded with gear, tools, food & stuff) TriPhoon. The
Evinrude was tilted up so the prop was just covered with water. The
water temp light came on twice and twice I had to shut it down and
clean the intakes, but it dug it's way out and we made it to Belle
Isle State Park docks that day (Our "homebase" for the week).
After a week of fishing in the Bay area, we headed back up river. I
took a wrong turn and ended up staying the night in a wild, wild
marsh. This time my wife and I were stuck in a half foot of water for
the night. Finally the tide peaked about 0430 Hours and at the very
crack of dawn the Evinrude 225 dug its way out of the swamp and this
time it didn't get clogged. When we arrived back at City Dock in
Fredericksburg and I put it on the trailer I was agast at what was
left of the aluminum 14.5 by 19 prop. The 225 never complained. All
the new paint was gone off the prop guard. We were safe and sound.
I did notice that 3,000 RPM kept us moving down the river at 20 MPH
and it took 4,000 RPM to do 20 MPH going up river. The trip back took
35 gallons of fuel and the 200 mile trip used about one gallon of oil.
The 25 foot Odyssey Millinium TriPhoon and the Evinrude 225 with
SeaStar performed well. This boat/motor combination with just me and
no gear, clocks on GPS at 58 MPH at full throttle.
Cheers !!!
Harry Krause
I discussed the boat in great deal while it was under construction and
after it was launched, and that's about when I stopped. For four of the
last six months, the boat's been on the hard. I see no need to discuss
the placement of vents in shrinkwrap.
You're not Jiminy Cricket, Snippy. No matter how hard you wish upon a
star, your hopes for me will not come true.
Charles
Harry Krause wrote:
> Methiks Karen of Oz got a bad batch of batteries for her vibrator.
Ah, the sexism rears its feral head again.
Tell us krause, what makes you *so* bitter towards women? Your first marriage?
-- Charlie
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Charles
Harry Krause wrote:
> My points of contention with the Bitch of Oz:
Need not read anything more.
Your points of contention are with females, and all the worse if they
*dare* to disagree with you.
Imagine some poor Australian slob of a woman eliciting a response from
the exalted krause to *each* and *every* post she makes.
(((With sincere apologies to Karen, who I consider neither poor nor a
slob, while krause is a sexist, racist, POS.)))
Charles
Harry Krause wrote:
> No matter how hard you wish upon a
> star, your hopes for me will not come true.
Wow, a morsel of truth from the king of vicarious internet boating.
True: No lie can ever become truth.
Skipper
>> You've not posted much during the last six months about that fabulous
>> custom $300,000 "lobstaboat" you claim to own. Did you trade it in for
>> that Parker? Are you upset that you've been outed?
> I discussed the boat in great deal while it was under construction and
> after it was launched, and that's about when I stopped. For four of the
> last six months, the boat's been on the hard. I see no need to discuss
> the placement of vents in shrinkwrap.
Pleased you are taking being outed so well. So, is a little honesty
about your "lobstaboat" tales beyond you? Do you really think your OT
obfuscations really mask the truth?
--
Skipper
del cecchi
news:<3E874BD4...@cox.net>...
> > Harry Krause wrote:
> >
> > > What makes you conclude that neither the press nor dealers
commented on
> > > OMC quality issues two years ago? It's not something you'd
necessarily
> > > find in a google search.
> >
Harry, o kill filed one, if that was directed at me, I have been reading
this group and occasionally commenting for years. Never once did I see
any of the OMC dealers say anything negative, except for an occasional
hint years later. I just put it down to, as my folks used to say,
"don't crap where you eat" or something like that. As for the press,
I've been reading Bass and Walleye Boats as a subscriber, and scanning
the others at the newstand since 97. Zip, Nada. Zilch. But they never
say anything bad about anything, except perhaps by laying it between the
lines. Sort of like Motor Trend.
del cecchi
K. Smith
But so what!!! just means you are one of the lucky 4 out of 5,
certainly doesn't make the fifth person feel any better & 100% of
owners have had the boat's value trashed.
1 in 5 failed Butch!!! that was publicly admitted by the head
honcho at OMC, write it on a bit of paper & look at it a while,
imagine if 1 in 5 Chevs or Fords failed?? No recall no admissions
of the design defect & now the very same players expect to scam &
spam them here again???? Come on even you have to accept this time
it's too much. There's only so much a Koala can bear.
K
K. Smith
He's been chasing me & Madcow around the NG for years & then in
real life stalking Madcow so, I suspect he's just a seriously sad
pervert.
He's a liar of the first order & Skip:- he never "owned" any boat
much less a boat with an Opti this was proven & admitted as fact
when someone searched the records years ago. He's just a lying
simpleton.
Can you imagine that people still even today seek to say there is
nothing wrong with Ficht?? ;-) honestly how stupid can people be &
survive without life support??? Anyway I've said what I say for this
thread however will always speak up as the dealers crawl back out
from under their rocks & try to sell this same crap yet again.
K
K. Smith
>
> Del, we just had to do an insurance job on a 99 OMC ficht for a customer.
> The mechanics were amazed at the lack of quality control displayed. My lead
> mechanic commented that it looked like the engine was just thrown together
> to get it out the door. I've heard this same line of comments from my
>
But don't you think this is sorta just playing to the Co line??? I
mean what exactly did your blokes see???
Oversized bores or undersized pistons?? not likely there's little
human input to that these days.
the crank journals were out of round &/or wrong size from new,
again not likely for the same as above
OMC had been building 2 stroke high output engines for a long time
& most of the process was automated, yet suddenly only the ficht
injected engines got bad fuel, bad oil, bad outside supplied pistons
etc the very same engines & year model but still carbed, were &
mostly still are fine. So what?? it's just bad karma that only the
Ficht engines suffered from these supposed "quality control issues".
Honestly save clocking the components what can they tell at a strip
down??? the crank has big tolerances anyway the bore vs pistons
again should be no better nor worse than any other OMC 2 stroke & it
seems whatever the QA the carbed engines are fine. Again for Bomb to
be talking about "tolerances" this is just more fairies at the
bottom of the garden it's the marketing line the dealers have been
setting up for some time to try & sell more design defective engines
just like these very same dealers have been selling VRO for 20
years. The old "yes yes we did have a problem but it's all fixed
now" the real question is why didn't you have a full recall then!!!
DON'T BUY FICHT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!
K
> I've seen some quality control issues with Mercs and Yamaha's also, but
> usually one goof on simple items, not a half a dozen problems on a single
> engine.
>
> "del cecchi" <dce...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:H3mha.40$ie2....@eagle.america.net...
> >
> > "Joe" <J...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:BKjha.7173$gp1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > >
> > > > Karen should be congratulated for warning NG subscribers of the
> > flawed
> > > > Ficht technology and predicting that it would bring OMC down. She
> > was
> > > > *proven* correct in her assumptions. Too bad you were unable to
> > benefit
> > > > from her wisdom.
> > >
> > >
> > > Up until recently they have been pure junk.
> > >
> > > Parts obtained by Bombardier after the buy out were found to be
> > outside of
> > > accept tolerances and most scraped.
> > >
> > > Anybody running a pre buyout Fict is on borrowed time. The defects
> > went far
> > > deeper than just the well published fuel problems.
> >
> > Hey Joe, how come none of the boating groups or the dealers or anyone
> > let anyone know that the OMC stuff was "junk"? How come OMC wasn't
> > honest with the public? I never saw anything that said "Our motors
> > haven't been reliable because we lost control of our manufacturing
> > process. We are extending our warrantee to make it up to the folks that
> > trusted us."
> >
> > Or is this just another "They used to be crap but all fixed now, trust
> > us" story? And how would you know any of this in the first place? Why
JDavis1277
That is possibly meaningful if OMC said what you claim.
What all of these threads have said, with the exception of one or two people
are purely hearsay. Mark says his "people" were disappointed in the quality of
the internals of one engine they disassembled. One other dealer type guy said
OMCs parts were mostly poorly made and did not meet specs. Habbi(??), I
believe, said his experience was unfortunate but I believe he got new FICHTs??.
I, of course, have had nothing but rave reviews for my small FICHT.
So, why not get feedback from those who really know.... the owners of FICHTs
and those who actually have a good bit of experience working on them???
Butch
The K said: snip >1 in 5 failed Butch!!! that was publicly admitted by the
head
>honcho at OMC> snip
Skipper
> Don't know how you define or, more importantly, how OMC defined a failure.
> I, of course, have had nothing but rave reviews for my small FICHT.
> So, why not get feedback from those who really know....
OMC went belly up defending Ficht technology. That would make pretty
good feedback for most...
--
Skipper
Habbi
more responses relating to the question.
http://www.wmi.org/bassfish/bassboard/boats_motors/index.html?a=732733
or
http://www.boatsetup.com/cgi-bin/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=6
or
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=497063aa2a57199bf3f
f776d801ed1b2&forumid=20
"Sam Marcum" <Sam_M...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:84251114.03032...@posting.google.com...
Harry Krause
Please provide a reliable business news or legal source that states that
OMC went belly up because of its FICHT technology.
JDavis1277
Skipper seemed to me to be a bit less stupid before he fell in love with The K
of Oz. :=)
Can you imagine the offspring? Good grief!!
Butch
del cecchi
"JDavis1277" <jdavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030331090212...@mb-cf.aol.com...
surveys, no JD Powers, no OMC info on Warrantee claims, no EPA making
the data public.
Makes a guy wonder. Reminds me of an old joke
"Listen to that"
"I don't hear anything"
"Been like that all night"
del cecchi
K. Smith
>
> K. Smith wrote:
>
> > Harry Krause wrote:
> > >
> > > JDavis1277 wrote:
> > >
> > > > Another hare brained "The K of Oz" response to someone seeking
> assistance from
> > > > someone with "knowledge". Of course, "The K" has no direct
> knowledge of the
> > > > FICHT family of outboards. However, you can bet she'll never miss an
> > > > opportunity to bad mouth, at extremely great length, any OMC
> product. Perhaps
> > > > she was badly frightened by an OMC product while a child???
> > > >
> > > > Do you think "The K" missed the response to Sam's question from
> Bill Grannis?
> > > > Not bloody likely... yet she responds????? anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Butch
> > > > 1999 FICHT Just Keeps on Running Perfectly
> > > >
> > > > The K of Oz wrote: Undiluted crap snipped >Sam Marcum wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> At 3200 RPM hesitates or stops for instant, catches up instantly and
> > > >>> repeats then "Check Engine" light comes on. If advancing trottle
> > > >>> quickly to higher than 3200 RPM then no problem. Any ideas as
> to what
> > > >>> is happening? This is easily repeatable and does this with any fuel
> > > >>> (87 or 89 Octane).
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > If you or anyone wants to discuss the nitty gritty of why Ficht
> > can't work
>
> Out of curiosity and I am sure I will be sorry I asked but ask I must.
> Do you have any particular credentials? Are you a mechanical engineer or
> something like that? Or a boat dealer? I ask because it seems like you
> like to knock a lot of products, but in the handful of posts of yours I
> have managed to get through, I have seen no reference to your specific
> credentials.
>
> What are they?
At least I can work a computer!!!
You're the dumbest simpleton the world has seen, you can't even
spoof your ID without leaving a full trail back to your rock,
simpleton.
K
K. Smith
>
> Don't know how you define or, more importantly, how OMC defined a failure.
> That is possibly meaningful if OMC said what you claim.
They had just announced a complete redesign of the injection system
& the electrics that drive it. The original system had a claimed
injection pressure of 250 psi, they announced in late 99 that they'd
doubled it, added the exhaust pressure sensor, water cooled ECU & of
course yet another rewrite of the ecu program.
>
> What all of these threads have said, with the exception of one or two people
> are purely hearsay.
No the failures are first hand in this NG & all the fishing boards
& the announcement that it's all fixed now when the boss announced
the 1 in 5 failure rate was as first hand as you can get.
Mark says his "people" were disappointed in the quality of
> the internals of one engine they disassembled. One other dealer type guy said
> OMCs parts were mostly poorly made and did not meet specs. Habbi(??), I
> believe, said his experience was unfortunate but I believe he got new FICHTs??.
> I, of course, have had nothing but rave reviews for my small FICHT.
I also think the smaller Fichts had a much better outcome, probably
because of their smaller size & the type of boats they go on, so
less likely to be making big power when still in lean mode.
>
> So, why not get feedback from those who really know.... the owners of FICHTs
> and those who actually have a good bit of experience working on them???
But in 98 - till now all we've had is owners complaining about
blown Fichts & never once have they got a real answer as to why. Say
what you like about me it's fact I have at least tried to explain
the reasons we say they fail & so far not one rejoinder has even
thrown doubt upon it.
When OMC rolled over Ficht owners got left totally in the lurch,
the NG spam dealers just ram away & hid like the cowards they are.
As for "working" on them why?? what can that tell anyone it's a
design defect in trying to run lean at power with no where near
enough atomisation which builds chamber heat in some (NB only some)
circumstances till detonation causes damage. Even as it happens
there is nothing a service mechanic can know or do. Lots of the
other things are related directly back to this & are totally
consistent with detonation damage, even the plumbing & injectors
getting pounded out of the heads, the broken spark plugs, endless
sensor failures etc etc .
I know you don't like me & that's fine but honestly none of Ficht's
failure is related to me, nor any of the old crowd who spent months
in the NG researching the technology.
In the bankruptcy hearing the "cause" of the failure put forward by
OMC was the cost of the Ficht failures. Remember Butch this was a
long time & despite what I thought of it, "icon" US Co that went
legs in the air in a table drain during the biggest consumer
recreational spending spree in history. This wasn't the tea lady
making off with the biscuit money, it was Ficht.
By all means argue the issues please, but just abuse of me doesn't
help anyone.
K
Billgran
>
> >
> Sorry, data not available. Nobody talking. No consumer reports
> surveys, no JD Powers, no OMC info on Warrantee claims, no EPA making
> the data public.
According to the JD Powers surveys, Evinrude FICHT is a close second to
Yamaha while Merc was third. In the first survey some years back, the FICHT
got an honorable mention along with the Honda 130.
I don't remember the exact numbers at the moment, but out of 1000 possible
points, Yamaha got somewhere around 860 and Evinrude FICHT about 830. Merc
was somewhere in the 780 range.
The EPA data is public record and available on its web site. The recorded
emission levels show FICHT emits fewer total emissions than the 4-stroke
Hondas and Yamahas in the same horsepower range.
Bill Grannis
service manager
Del Cecchi
98-2000 time frame, specifically for the Ficht models.
I don't know what to think. There were an awful lot of "engineering changes" or
updates for whatever reason. And we all have seen examples of new technologies
that have had significant problems in automobiles for example.
Were the early Ficht 150s as unreliable as folklore would have it? If they were,
was any root cause ever disclosed? There have been theories and allegations in
the newsgroup but as an engineer I am interested in data. OMC must have had
information on major warrantee claims, and done analysis of failed motors to see
if there was a common cause.
Sloppy tolerances and lack of attention to detail on the assembly line is a
possible cause of high failure rates for sure. Presumably this would have shown
up in the carb'd engines as well.
Are blown engines reported to EPA?
|>
--
Del Cecchi
cec...@us.ibm.com
Personal Opinions Only
Billgran
"Del Cecchi" <cec...@signa.rchland.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:b6cfqb$tf6$1...@news.rchland.ibm.com...
>
> Were the early Ficht 150s as unreliable as folklore would have it? If
they were,
> was any root cause ever disclosed? There have been theories and
allegations in
> the newsgroup but as an engineer I am interested in data. OMC must have
had
> information on major warrantee claims, and done analysis of failed motors
to see
> if there was a common cause.
>
The first FICHT introduced in late '96 was a 20" shaft 150 and performed
pretty well. In '98 they introduced the extra long shaft version and a 175hp
version. These were the ones that gave FICHT the bad reputation since they
were installed on heavier boats and had a different duty cycle than bass
boats and runabouts. David Jones, the then head of OMC, stated that about
20% of the motors had major problems due to a number of causes. None of my
customers had major problems, but I did see a few from other dealers. Most
problems were related to application and running in the 1200-2000 rpm range
and soot buildup. It wasn't a lean running problem, but a rich running one
due to incomplete combustion. The factory sent out teams nationwide to
upgrade the motors, and select 1999 models, with new cylinder head designs
and software improvements. All the boating magazines talked about this and
published interviews with factory officials and how to get your motor
updated. You can check back issues for the complete story and all the tech
info. The factory was very forthright in saying there was a problem and they
were doing what they could to remedy it. Even Austrailian boating magazines
had articles about this. I emailed a link for Karen to read, several years
ago. The V4 motors since '98 and the 200 and 225's of '99 and later did not
have the problems like the 150-175hp of '98 and '99 did.
In 2000 they improved FICHT and called it FICHT Ram with fewer emissions and
better drivablilty and technology. The Ram system has worked well. In 2001,
they made a bigger V6 block from 3.0L to 3.3L. Like any new technology,
there is a learning curve and mid-year changes. Bombardier made some
improvements in the design for 2002 and increased reliabiltiy and
performance. I service FICHTS with well over 1000 hours on them on SeaTow
boats, commercial fisherman and crabber set ups, and on law enforcement
boats. The customers do like them and most I only see for the routine
servicing.
Most of the bad stuff you hear about FICHTS are about 4 year old motors, not
recent ones, and many are due to incorrect setup and servicing and from
listening to advice from unqualified people. If you have an opportunity, run
one of the newer ones and tell us what you think. I get to service the
FICHTS, OptiMaxes and the HPDI's, and am one of the few that have factory
training in all 3 technologies. They all do well, but for drivability,
quietness, and smooth operation, Evinrude beats them all.
Check out my Optimax servicing article in the latest Bass and Walleye Boats
magazine.
Bill Grannis
service manager
Harry Krause
As a professional writer, I highly recommend Bill's articles. He writes
to his audience, he provides *lots* of really useful information, he's
very careful in his explanations and as complete as the space he is
allocated allows. And his stuff is subject to peer review.
Bill has lots of credibility with me. I believe his explanation of FICHT
history and shortcomings.
I do not believe Karen of Oz's account of anything. She's been nailed
any number of times on technical issues, and her response typically is
to sort of giggle, sometimes admit she's made a boo-boo but, more
typically, go after whomever has pulled her up by the short hairs.
Further, Bill is a professional, trained mechanic, someone who actually
works on the engines many of us know and some of us love.
Karen does NOT work on any of these engines. She has had no training on
them. She sweeps the web, vacuuming up tidbits and tries to package them
and herself as "the skinny."
In my opinion, Karen of Oz should be firebranded on her forehead with a
"Caveat Emptor" mark. She's got lots of axes to grind and she's using
this newsgroup to do it.
Skipper is one of her supporters. What else do you need to know?
I don't see Bass & Walleye Boats on my newsstand, but I'll make the
effort to find Bill's article.
Mark - boatbasin.com
"JDavis1277" <jdavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
> are purely hearsay. Mark says his "people" were disappointed in the
quality of
> the internals of one engine they disassembled.
That is not quite what I said. I said that when my mechanics were working
on a particular OMC engine, they pointed out to me several instances of poor
quality control that was evident. They were not disassembling the engine,
just some of the wiring, starter, stator, etc. The engine was immersed
while hooked up to the battery and we were doing the standard clean up. The
deficiencies we noted were not particular to the Ficht design, but
symptomatic of the poor Q.C. of OMC in general. We noticed a few things in
a carbed Johnson of the same vintage. Perhaps they were both "Friday or
Monday" problems, perhaps they were representative of all OMC products of
those years. I do not know as I only reported what I had seen from a
limited perspective.
As far as Ficht goes, OMC is not the only company who has licensed the
technology. I have several Kawasaki Fichts around, (STX-DI) and except for
one instance, they have all performed flawlessly. The Kawasaki version of
the Ficht has a very good industry-wide track record, which makes me think
that OMC's problems with Ficht was a result of their application of it,
rather than the technology itself. The single instance of one of our
Kawasaki Ficht's failing was due to a clogged injector from water in the
fuel.
Skipper
> As a professional writer, I highly recommend Bill's articles. He writes
> to his audience, he provides *lots* of really useful information, he's
> very careful in his explanations and as complete as the space he is
> allocated allows. And his stuff is subject to peer review.
> Bill has lots of credibility with me. I believe his explanation of FICHT
> history and shortcomings.
> I do not believe Karen of Oz's account of anything. She's been nailed
> any number of times on technical issues, and her response typically is
> to sort of giggle, sometimes admit she's made a boo-boo but, more
> typically, go after whomever has pulled her up by the short hairs.
> Further, Bill is a professional, trained mechanic, someone who actually
> works on the engines many of us know and some of us love.
> Karen does NOT work on any of these engines. She has had no training on
> them. She sweeps the web, vacuuming up tidbits and tries to package them
> and herself as "the skinny."
> In my opinion, Karen of Oz should be firebranded on her forehead with a
> "Caveat Emptor" mark. She's got lots of axes to grind and she's using
> this newsgroup to do it.
Bill is a good technical resource, as is Karen. Check out
http://tinyurl.com/8muk, or more precisely, http://tinyurl.com/8muy.
Credibility is something you lost long ago, Krause.
--
Skipper
del cecchi
<anonanon...@cotse.net> wrote in message
news:YW5vbmFub24=.fac12d0da4dc00c4...@1049207133.cotse.net.
..
> credentials, your response is that you can work a computer. Do you
have
> a drinking problem?
>
>
Big talk for someone posting from an anonymiser with a made up ID.
What are your credentials? Your daddy once saw an outboard motor with
the cowl off? You pass water in emergencies?
del cecchi
K. Smith
>
> "Del Cecchi" <cec...@signa.rchland.ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:b6cfqb$tf6$1...@news.rchland.ibm.com...
>
> >
> > Were the early Ficht 150s as unreliable as folklore would have it? If
> they were,
> > was any root cause ever disclosed? There have been theories and
> allegations in
> > the newsgroup but as an engineer I am interested in data. OMC must have
> had
> > information on major warrantee claims, and done analysis of failed motors
> to see
> > if there was a common cause.
> >
>
> The first FICHT introduced in late '96 was a 20" shaft 150 and performed
> pretty well. In '98 they introduced the extra long shaft version and a 175hp
> version. These were the ones that gave FICHT the bad reputation since they
> were installed on heavier boats and had a different duty cycle than bass
> boats and runabouts. David Jones, the then head of OMC, stated that about
> 20% of the motors had major problems due to a number of causes. None of my
> customers had major problems, but I did see a few from other dealers. Most
> problems were related to application and running in the 1200-2000 rpm range
> and soot buildup.
This is just BS of the first order. The reason these engines fail
when run in that range is they're still lean but are also making
considerable power, which means they are in the first instance
overly heating the combustion chamber, however once normal mixture
is returned there is plenty of fuel to allow full detonation in
"some" situations. You are not much more than a salesman Bill for
this now proven faulty design.
It wasn't a lean running problem, but a rich running one
> due to incomplete combustion.
Have you lost your mind or do you think everybody else has??? It's
in that very rev range where the Ficht's run lean & very lean to
boot. The reason the combustion is abnormal is because the fuel is
so poorly atomised (lack of a proper fuel pump & lack of injection
pressure). To be trying to now say they're "rich" at those revs is
rich indeed. Has to be said that this is now your dishonesty in
spamming the fichts again Bill.
Go re read your own spam, all your so called fuel economy is only
in that rev range, just as your claims regards EPA are also & it's
because they deliberately run lean. The poor atomisation is because
the impact injector just doesn't have sufficient power to make the
real pressure needed.
The factory sent out teams nationwide to
> upgrade the motors, and select 1999 models, with new cylinder head designs
Well a stolen patent design from the Optis which was part of the
bankruptcy settlement, that's how desperate you were & ignorant of
what the real problem was.
> and software improvements. All the boating magazines talked about this and
> published interviews with factory officials and how to get your motor
> updated. You can check back issues for the complete story and all the tech
> info. The factory was very forthright in saying there was a problem and they
> were doing what they could to remedy it. Even Austrailian boating magazines
> had articles about this. I emailed a link for Karen to read, several years
> ago. The V4 motors since '98 and the 200 and 225's of '99 and later did not
> have the problems like the 150-175hp of '98 and '99 did.
Gee this is the very complaint we make Bill. You tell all sorts of
lies about the product them when it turns out it doesn't work
(exactly as we told you it wouldn't) you say yes we had a problem
but it's all fixed now, trouble is that's a lie also because you
never fixed the real issue. This is the tactic you got away with
over VRO but not these days, people can actually talk to each other.
>
> In 2000 they improved FICHT and called it FICHT Ram with fewer emissions and
> better drivablilty and technology. The Ram system has worked well. In 2001,
> they made a bigger V6 block from 3.0L to 3.3L. Like any new technology,
> there is a learning curve and mid-year changes.
Are you insane??? you can't just use the public & charge them extra
to boot, to do your testing for you!!! You can't really think this
is OK?? Even in 2001 you accept then they still didn't work??
Bombardier made some
> improvements in the design for 2002 and increased reliabiltiy and
> performance. I service FICHTS with well over 1000 hours on them on SeaTow
> boats, commercial fisherman and crabber set ups, and on law enforcement
> boats. The customers do like them and most I only see for the routine
> servicing.
This is deceptive testimonial stuff & I suggest you type "Ficht
problems" into google, then sit back & read a while. You'll find the
usual dealers like you trying to put gloss on it but in general
terms there's no shortage of real people having real problems with
ALL versions of Ficht & those that are lucky enough not to??? they
are complaining they can't even get offers when they try to sell
their boats!!! Your 1 in 5 failure rate is bad enough for the 1 out
of 5 but it's 5 out of 5 who have had their boating investment
wrecked well & truly.
>
> Most of the bad stuff you hear about FICHTS are about 4 year old motors, not
> recent ones, and many are due to incorrect setup and servicing and from
> listening to advice from unqualified people.
Classic take it to a dealer advice. There are plenty of faulty new
fichts if you do the search & even the one in this NG is a 2003
model. You need to face up to the reality that a high output engine
when detonating will not just damage the pistons/rings etc but the
vibration is so violent that most of the endless sensors & other
ancillaries that ONLY seem to fail on fichts are getting the bejesus
shaken out of them. The injectors & plumbing were coming adrift till
the USCG got so concerned about peoples' safety or have you
forgotten that also??? The best evidence that your fairy tale about
poor parts is just that, is that the very same engines when carbed
performed pretty much as they always have, even down to having
faulty VRO problems. They never had a failure rate anything like the
fichts, if it really was "parts" why not??? Same engine same outputs
same revs, fuel, oil, boats, water.
If you have an opportunity, run
> one of the newer ones and tell us what you think. I get to service the
> FICHTS, OptiMaxes and the HPDI's, and am one of the few that have factory
> training in all 3 technologies. They all do well, but for drivability,
> quietness, and smooth operation, Evinrude beats them all.
So what??? they're unreliable & people now know they're unreliable.
You can't have it both ways & say you don't see problems because
you're a small dealer, then want to say the whole of southern USA
were lying about Ficht when; 7000 people got chucked, US$1.3 billion
of pensioners money got pissed against the wall. It was you blokes
that were deceiving people & you want to try it again with the BOMB
goes BOOM fichts. No doubt with liars like Harry on your team,
you'll suck a few more in but I'll be a noisy & detailed about it as
I was the first time.
>
> Check out my Optimax servicing article in the latest Bass and Walleye Boats
> magazine.
And they have a bad service history also for about the same
reasons, yet the technologies & their execution is totally
different. The only common denominator is they both try to run lean
at power. Bloody spam from a spruiker.
K
>
> Bill Grannis
> service manager
Del Cecchi
Now Karen, it must be said again that, while your theory is interesting and
perhaps even plausable, it has not been tested, and data has not been made
available to prove or disprove.
In fairness to part of your theory, improper atomization could cause carbon
deposition due to localized richness I would think.
On the other hand, if your theory about detonation were totally true,
there would be a killer
operational profile that would kill any Ficht dead in an hour or two, although
the killer profile might be model dependent.
Whereas the "get coked up" profile of destruction would take much longer, right?
But as I have said, there isn't really much public data that would allow one to
decide. Although the Bass Boat guys don't seem to think much of Ficht either.
If the problem is due to service and setup being done poorly, it would seem as if
OMC dropped the ball in dealer relations by allowing poorly trained dealers to
set up these motors.
Harry Krause
> The wind blew, the shit flew, and in walked someone who claims to be
> K.Smith, a person who makes outrageous claims on a number of
> boat-related subjects but from a casual read of this newsgroup has no
> credentials other than an ability to sling crap in every direction.
>
> Ms. Smith, if you are a Ms., I suggest BS of the first order, what you
> refer to above in your post, is the only thing you know about.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Actually, Smith's gender is unknown, but it portrays a female on USENET.
Charles
Harry Krause wrote:
> Actually, Smith's gender is unknown, but it portrays a female on USENET.
Actually, you constantly refer to Karen as female. It's therefore
disingenuous for you to say that her gender is unknown, for, in your
mind, it's well known, and is an integral part of why you incessantly
deride and disparage her.
JDavis1277
I clearly misunderstood your earlier remarks on the subject. I guess I assumed
you were talking internals. An old boss of mine while trying to get me to stop
making assumptions once said "to assume is to make an ass out of u and me".
Guess it didn't take.
Butch
K. Smith
I'd submit it's been tested & found correct by the way the engines
failed exactly as predicted, prior to the failures going through the
roof.
>
> In fairness to part of your theory, improper atomization could cause carbon
> deposition due to localized richness I would think.
Seriously though Del, Bill is actually trying to run the line that
Fichts are RICH at low revs, what about all the published material,
the EPA claims & how they met them. Honestly again there's only so
much a K can bear.
>
> On the other hand, if your theory about detonation were totally true,
> there would be a killer
> operational profile that would kill any Ficht dead in an hour or two, although
> the killer profile might be model dependent.
I'd submit there is;-) I'll further say I think they have known all
about it since 98. The changes they made to the 99 models were an
admission of same
(a) Doubled the injection pressure ? (another lie as it turns out
but whatever) Why?? better atomisation??
(b) The Exhaust pressure sensor?? to try to tell when the engine is
under load in that nose high stern low but still lean attitude??
>
> Whereas the "get coked up" profile of destruction would take much longer, right?
Again why would a ficht "get coked up"??? Much much less oil
getting burnt than the carbed exact same engines & claiming an 80%
fuel saving at low to mid revs??? The fact that there is carbon
there is proof of "abnormal combustion" which is the usual euphemism
for detonation;-)
>
> But as I have said, there isn't really much public data that would allow one to
> decide. Although the Bass Boat guys don't seem to think much of Ficht either.
I'm really surprised to be honest, the US is a real consumer
sensitive place & the most technology driven on earth yet you as a
nation seem to have just put this in the too hard basket. Forget me
because all I've said is what ANY IC engine engineer will tell
anyone who bothers to ask, yet these dealers still get away with
spruiking BS. It doesn't work (proven?? yes??) because it "can't"
work.
If Ficht, OMC or Bomb really did discover a manner in which IC
petrol engines could be run lean at power it would be the biggest
news, as it is they claimed all sorts of things but then had exactly
the same problems everyone who has tried it has had, including Opti.
>
> If the problem is due to service and setup being done poorly, it would seem as if
> OMC dropped the ball in dealer relations by allowing poorly trained dealers to
> set up these motors.
The dealers are simpletons who are part of a dishonest resale price
maintenance scheme.
K
Harry Krause
>
> The dealers are simpletons who are part of a dishonest resale price
> maintenance scheme.
>
> K
>
>
Poor pitiful Karen Smith of Oz...turned down for a boating dealership
because she only had $1.98 in assets and no business sense whatsoever,
and reduced to taking potshots at those in the biz.
del cecchi
"K. Smith" <ksm...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3E8C1F53...@tpg.com.au...
I guess we have different ideas of the meaning of "tested". How did
they fail?
Where did you get your data, and can I see it too? I know only that a
significant number did fail. I don't even know the distribution of
failures by application, region of the country, or operating hours.
>
> >
> > In fairness to part of your theory, improper atomization could cause
carbon
> > deposition due to localized richness I would think.
>
> Seriously though Del, Bill is actually trying to run the line that
> Fichts are RICH at low revs, what about all the published material,
> the EPA claims & how they met them. Honestly again there's only so
> much a K can bear.
Bull. you put up with harry and his new alter ego. This is nothing.
And it seems plausable to me that if, for example, the fuel droplets
were too big then they would burn sooty. After all if I pour gas on the
ground and light it, doesn't it give black smoke?
>
> >
> > On the other hand, if your theory about detonation were totally
true,
> > there would be a killer
> > operational profile that would kill any Ficht dead in an hour or
two, although
> > the killer profile might be model dependent.
>
> I'd submit there is;-) I'll further say I think they have known all
> about it since 98. The changes they made to the 99 models were an
> admission of same
> (a) Doubled the injection pressure ? (another lie as it turns out
> but whatever) Why?? better atomisation??
If poor atomization were causing sooting and sooting was killing the
motors? So they jack up the voltage on the solenoids, make the rods
heavier, make the holes smaller. presto, little drops. :-)
>
> (b) The Exhaust pressure sensor?? to try to tell when the engine is
> under load in that nose high stern low but still lean attitude??
Or maybe to run leaner in that low RPM wide open throttle steady state
condition? After all, it is documented that motors with exhaust back
pressure make less HP. That was shown in a dyno test in Bass and
Walleye Boats. Makes theoretical sense too.
>
>
> >
> > Whereas the "get coked up" profile of destruction would take much
longer, right?
>
> Again why would a ficht "get coked up"??? Much much less oil
> getting burnt than the carbed exact same engines & claiming an 80%
> fuel saving at low to mid revs??? The fact that there is carbon
> there is proof of "abnormal combustion" which is the usual euphemism
> for detonation;-)
See above.
>
> >
> > But as I have said, there isn't really much public data that would
allow one to
> > decide. Although the Bass Boat guys don't seem to think much of
Ficht either.
>
> I'm really surprised to be honest, the US is a real consumer
> sensitive place & the most technology driven on earth yet you as a
> nation seem to have just put this in the too hard basket. Forget me
> because all I've said is what ANY IC engine engineer will tell
> anyone who bothers to ask, yet these dealers still get away with
> spruiking BS. It doesn't work (proven?? yes??) because it "can't"
> work.
>
> If Ficht, OMC or Bomb really did discover a manner in which IC
> petrol engines could be run lean at power it would be the biggest
> news, as it is they claimed all sorts of things but then had exactly
> the same problems everyone who has tried it has had, including Opti.
They filed Bankruptcy before the lawyers could get rolling.
>
> >
> > If the problem is due to service and setup being done poorly, it
would seem as if
> > OMC dropped the ball in dealer relations by allowing poorly trained
dealers to
> > set up these motors.
>
> The dealers are simpletons who are part of a dishonest resale price
> maintenance scheme.
>
> K
The retail system isn't dishonest just because the buyer doesn't know
how much something costs the seller.
What does a can of beer cost the brewery? :-)
del
K. Smith
No I think I have to accept this & certainly if you or I were in
OMCs position we would know exactly the answers you seek. That
given, what we have witnessed since 98 is a sort of test program
using consumers as the testers & even charging them extra to
participate, I suppose a sort of reverse lottery?? Tests are always
easy to set up with hindsight, however the one we've witnessed is
not all that bad & given the way the dealers were lying in 98 we
probably wouldn't, couldn't have set it up much better???
I suggest as bizarre as this 5 year test program has been there is
still a fair bit we do "know" from it, although you might see it
differently.
e.g. we "know"
(a) The basic 2 stroke mostly V6 that Ficht & optimax were bolted
onto was the standard V6 2 stroke that had performed to a user
acceptable standard for probably 30 years.
(b) The engine structures were almost identical, same castings &
internals, bearings, pistons, rings, head fixtures, reed valves,
ports etc etc
(c) In both cases, Ficht & opti the suppliers continued to produce
the no DFI or DAFI engines at the same time on if not the exact same
production lines, then the same factories, so it is a fairly good
blind blind study??
(d) The only differences between the carbed (OMC) & EFI (Merc)
engines & their newer much more expensive Ficht & Opti were the fuel
injection systems themselves, to a lesser degree the way the spark
plugs were fired & oil injection worked.
(e) It should also be noted that in this 5 year long consumer funded
experiment they cleverly made the Ficht & Opti systems as different
as you could possible imagine. The Ficht is real DFI with very lean
mixtures, so lean they need to repeatedly fire the plug to ensure
ignition, whereas the Optis are not real DFI but use almost normal
injection into a secondary inlet air manifold, but again they use
very lean mixtures at low revs, even the oil injection systems were
totally different. The ONLY common denominator between the two
systems is they both use very lean mixtures, to prevent the fuel
getting out the exhaust at low revs, therefor they can pass the EPA
tests.
(f) What we do know is that Ficht has a terrible reputation for
reliability & this is admitted, firstly by OMC itself & now by the
very same dealers who promised it was all a conspiracy in 98-2000,
now they admit it & use that admission to claim "it's all fixed",
the Optis had a better outcome but still not good enough to be known
as reliable & they will be abandoned just as soon as Brunswick can
get the replacement 4 strokes in place.
(g) We also know that the non Ficht or Opti almost identical carbed
or EFI engines have the same reliability they've always had, indeed
around here lots of people have changed back to the non Ficht or
Opti versions when the so called warranties became untenable.
(h) Is it a stretch for me to suggest we know that the problems lie
in the new fuel injection systems??? Proof?? no I accept it's not,
but given we're looking at a dishonest bunch od scam merchants we
will never be given it. They never let any of the many court cases
go through but if they had I'd suggest the litigants would have
romped it in. Even the dealer case in the bankruptcy brought
scathing comments from Her Honour about the marketing practices.
(i) My side doesn't need to "prove" anything really, the Dealers
have been caught red handed lying & the engines have failed on mass
exactly as predicted. OMC went under when the biggest recreational
spending spree was at it's peak & Brunswick is well damaged by
Optimax (gee Dave even knows of warehouses full of blown Optimax
powerheads;-) in new mexico I'm guessing ??)
Anyway I'm heartened to see you at least be a little more skeptical
of our friendly spam & scam merchants, well done.
>
> >
> > >
> > > In fairness to part of your theory, improper atomization could cause
> carbon
> > > deposition due to localized richness I would think.
> >
> > Seriously though Del, Bill is actually trying to run the line that
> > Fichts are RICH at low revs, what about all the published material,
> > the EPA claims & how they met them. Honestly again there's only so
> > much a K can bear.
>
> Bull. you put up with harry and his new alter ego. This is nothing.
> And it seems plausable to me that if, for example, the fuel droplets
> were too big then they would burn sooty. After all if I pour gas on the
> ground and light it, doesn't it give black smoke?
Hmmm you can't ever burn any liquid not ever. All you can ever burn
is the vapour as the liquid vapourises.
In detonation, the residual endgases contain unburnt fuel which
just self ignites as the chamber pressure/heat goes past its
ignition point, in the extreme "abnormal" combustion, any unburnt
fuel gets converted to carbon. It's not because it's rich in any
manner it's because it's detonation. Again if it's rich, why don't
the carbed or EFI engine carbon up much quicker???
You say I put up with Harry, please please tell me what else I can
do?? & I'll do it in a heart beat.
>
> >
> > >
> > > On the other hand, if your theory about detonation were totally
> true,
> > > there would be a killer
> > > operational profile that would kill any Ficht dead in an hour or
> two, although
> > > the killer profile might be model dependent.
> >
> > I'd submit there is;-) I'll further say I think they have known all
> > about it since 98. The changes they made to the 99 models were an
> > admission of same
> > (a) Doubled the injection pressure ? (another lie as it turns out
> > but whatever) Why?? better atomisation??
>
> If poor atomization were causing sooting and sooting was killing the
> motors? So they jack up the voltage on the solenoids, make the rods
> heavier, make the holes smaller. presto, little drops. :-)
See this is where you & Marcus were going when Marcus dropped out
(I hope he's OK & I still miss him & you two were a good pair). As I
recall we had even started to try to calculate the energy &
therefore power needed to take the fuel from circulation pressure to
injection pressure in the tiny period available. We got bogged on
our arguments about defining the time, but no matter we were well &
truly onto it & remember this was very early 98, long before Ficht
completely replaced the electrics to try to drive the bigger
injectors.
The idea of just having a solenoid drive an injector has been
around since the 50s & has always fallen when the power needed in
the time available was found to be huge. They've tried various ways
to extend the "time" part, by using solenoids to compress springs
then triggering them at the right instant, or the Ficht method which
was to have fuel circulating at high velocity then suddenly stop it
so the pressure shock made a short burst of pressure & lately we've
noticed that Ficht have been working on capacitors, to try to store
electrical power & release it with a bang. Bomb goes bang.
It's a big ask power wise & as demonstrated by Yamaha it takes lots
& lots of pressure to achieve atomisation suitable for DFI, they've
even increased the latest to 1000 psi of petrol!!! Scary bananas
indeed!!.
In manifold injection the problem goes away because the fuel can
vapourise in the inlet manifold before the inlet valve opens,
sequential injection doesn't try to inject when the valve is open
but only when it's shut so raw un-atomised fuel can't get in there.
Opti has the defacto inlet manifold to provide some better
atomisation & this is reflected in it faring better, but still lean
at low revs so still unreliable.
> >
> > (b) The Exhaust pressure sensor?? to try to tell when the engine is
> > under load in that nose high stern low but still lean attitude??
>
> Or maybe to run leaner in that low RPM wide open throttle steady state
> condition? After all, it is documented that motors with exhaust back
> pressure make less HP. That was shown in a dyno test in Bass and
> Walleye Boats. Makes theoretical sense too.
I know you have regard for the magazines Del but I don't. They just
spruik the advertisers line & to date have you seen one buck the
marketing line??? Gee look at the standards of the people they
publish ;-)
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Whereas the "get coked up" profile of destruction would take much
> longer, right?
> >
> > Again why would a ficht "get coked up"??? Much much less oil
> > getting burnt than the carbed exact same engines & claiming an 80%
> > fuel saving at low to mid revs??? The fact that there is carbon
> > there is proof of "abnormal combustion" which is the usual euphemism
> > for detonation;-)
>
> See above.
You too ;-)
> >
> > >
> > > But as I have said, there isn't really much public data that would
> allow one to
> > > decide. Although the Bass Boat guys don't seem to think much of
> Ficht either.
> >
> > I'm really surprised to be honest, the US is a real consumer
> > sensitive place & the most technology driven on earth yet you as a
> > nation seem to have just put this in the too hard basket. Forget me
> > because all I've said is what ANY IC engine engineer will tell
> > anyone who bothers to ask, yet these dealers still get away with
> > spruiking BS. It doesn't work (proven?? yes??) because it "can't"
> > work.
> >
> > If Ficht, OMC or Bomb really did discover a manner in which IC
> > petrol engines could be run lean at power it would be the biggest
> > news, as it is they claimed all sorts of things but then had exactly
> > the same problems everyone who has tried it has had, including Opti.
>
> They filed Bankruptcy before the lawyers could get rolling.
> >
> > >
> > > If the problem is due to service and setup being done poorly, it
> would seem as if
> > > OMC dropped the ball in dealer relations by allowing poorly trained
> dealers to
> > > set up these motors.
They are not "trained" in anything except to spruik BS. The amount
of knowledge & skill needed to work on the modern ECU engines is
much less than the old carbed link & synch engines. Once the tech
has the equipment (in Brunswick's case deliberately proprietary so
you're wed to the dealers if you buy an Optimax) then there is no
"knowledge" at all needed, literally follow the bouncing ball.
They've never been taught any understanding & certainly have none,
eg. they didn't even know how nor why the old engines manipulated
spark timing to get smooth idle, still don't understand (or won't)
why the single "O" ring in the VRO pump is a design flaw, & it seems
have always been quick to tell people why their 2 stroke failed when
run lean yet don't even question when the new ones claim degrees of
lean that normally won't even allow ignition.
> >
> > The dealers are simpletons who are part of a dishonest resale price
> > maintenance scheme.
> >
> > K
>
> The retail system isn't dishonest just because the buyer doesn't know
> how much something costs the seller.
> What does a can of beer cost the brewery? :-)
I agree but the deliberate claims that they actually pay the dealer
invoice & that really does represent their cost is a different
matter. The coming here of dealers then lying about the arrangements
is just ..... well .... plain lies.
K
>
> del
del cecchi
> del cecchi wrote:
> > I guess we have different ideas of the meaning of "tested". How did
> > they fail?
> > Where did you get your data, and can I see it too? I know only that
a
> > significant number did fail. I don't even know the distribution of
> > failures by application, region of the country, or operating hours.
>
> No I think I have to accept this & certainly if you or I were in
> OMCs position we would know exactly the answers you seek. That
> given, what we have witnessed since 98 is a sort of test program
> using consumers as the testers & even charging them extra to
> participate, I suppose a sort of reverse lottery?? Tests are always
> easy to set up with hindsight, however the one we've witnessed is
> not all that bad & given the way the dealers were lying in 98 we
> probably wouldn't, couldn't have set it up much better???
In my experience, wide usage will sometimes turn up flaws that were not
apparent in initial testing, no matter how thorough one attempts to be.
And if one is up against a money shortage and a government deadline, so
much the worse.
I have always been skeptical. trust me on that. :-)
And I don't argue with the fact that there have been many problems with
the Ficht and Optimax motors, although it seems like more with Ficht.
What we disagree on is the degree to which this is a fundamental
incurable problem characteristic of Ficht in particular, and EPA
compliant 2 strokes in general.
I would say that you and I don't have enough data to conclude anything
as to the truth of the above statement. It could be a fundamental
problem or it could be an implementation detail that caused high failure
rates. And it could be possible to resolve all the implementation
details and produce a reliable EPA compliant 2 stroke usable in all
applications, or maybe it is impossible. I am in no position to tell
which. It's a pretty interesting question however.
>
> >
>
> In detonation, the residual endgases contain unburnt fuel which
> just self ignites as the chamber pressure/heat goes past its
> ignition point, in the extreme "abnormal" combustion, any unburnt
> fuel gets converted to carbon. It's not because it's rich in any
> manner it's because it's detonation. Again if it's rich, why don't
> the carbed or EFI engine carbon up much quicker???
>
> You say I put up with Harry, please please tell me what else I can
> do?? & I'll do it in a heart beat.
>
Got a kill file? A block sender option? Use it. Makes the group a lot
more tolerable.
You say detonation leaves a carbon residue? Hmm. You sure about that?
Electronics has come a loooong ways since the 50's. Sure, use a step up
switching regulator to put a few hundred volts on a cap and fire it
through the solenoid. Just like a capacitive discharge ignition. cake.
>
> > The retail system isn't dishonest just because the buyer doesn't
know
> > how much something costs the seller.
> > What does a can of beer cost the brewery? :-)
>
> I agree but the deliberate claims that they actually pay the dealer
> invoice & that really does represent their cost is a different
> matter. The coming here of dealers then lying about the arrangements
> is just ..... well .... plain lies.
>
> K
all depends on your definition of cost :-) doesn't matter anyway, what
matters is price. After all what did it "cost" intel to make the
processor in your pc? It is just sand, aluminum, plastic, and a few
impurities. :-) can't be a dimes worth of stuff. :-)
> >
> > del
Raymond T. Lowe
recreation interests which includes Sea-doos and O/B motors. Anyone
hear any details?
RT
--
Correct the obvious to reply by email.
"Joe" <J...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:BKjha.7173$gp1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
> > Karen should be congratulated for warning NG subscribers of the flawed
> > Ficht technology and predicting that it would bring OMC down. She was
> > *proven* correct in her assumptions. Too bad you were unable to benefit
> > from her wisdom.
>
>
> Up until recently they have been pure junk.
>
> Parts obtained by Bombardier after the buy out were found to be outside of
> accept tolerances and most scraped.
>
> Anybody running a pre buyout Fict is on borrowed time. The defects went
far
> deeper than just the well published fuel problems.
>
>
K. Smith
Residues after detonation are a common symptom in aero engines that
have been run too lean at power. The "residues are all sorts of
chemical stuff caused by the extreme pressure/heat combos which
never occur in "normal" combustion.
Well as I said they (Ficht) have been filing on it for a couple of
years now but .... energy is still energy. As for the time we go
back to where we were arguing in the old days & it seems the raw
data is, that a Ficht injector in full flight actually starts
injection 340 degs+ BEFORE tdc. So the previous charge has only just
stopped burning!! Each cycle is only 10 ms at 6000 rpm. Sure you can
play with some limited storage (caps) & even manipulate the pressure
of delivery (volts) but in the end the real issue is that it takes
lots of energy to suddenly take the pressure up by a factor of say
15 & then drop it back down again so the injector can replenish. The
Yamahas don't have that issue they just have it 100% of the time
available so the injection is all they have to worry about & again
remember they are using 1000 psi in some circumstance which shows
just how critical atomisation is if DFI is to even have a chance.
Yamaha seem to be getting out of the 2 strokes in favour of the 4
strokes.
> >
> > > The retail system isn't dishonest just because the buyer doesn't
> know
> > > how much something costs the seller.
> > > What does a can of beer cost the brewery? :-)
> >
> > I agree but the deliberate claims that they actually pay the dealer
> > invoice & that really does represent their cost is a different
> > matter. The coming here of dealers then lying about the arrangements
> > is just ..... well .... plain lies.
> >
> > K
> all depends on your definition of cost :-) doesn't matter anyway, what
> matters is price. After all what did it "cost" intel to make the
> processor in your pc? It is just sand, aluminum, plastic, and a few
> impurities. :-) can't be a dimes worth of stuff. :-)
> > >
What even the pentium 100 in my ever faithful IBM 6576-57H???? ;-)
I have no great difficulty with that & good on them. I got a note
the other day from Red hat saying they'll no longer give me free
updates on my 7 system so I think I'll have to load the mandrake 9
discs, they will still give me "free" security updates etc. Redhat
seems to have caught some of uncle Bill's habits, sad ;-). I get all
the works & jerks & yes old faithful will still drive it, a little
slow at times but hey I love it. Back to the chips; if I order
enough I or anyone can buy them at the going rate, not so OB engines
they're area restricted & the price is artificially maintained.
K
> > > del
JDavis1277
No more than the usual speculation. Sure wish I had the resources to buy them
both.... and the smarts to keep them running.
Why would you use the term "dump" rather than "sell"?
Butch
Raymond wrote: >Someone at work mentioned that Bombardier is looking to dump
John Wentworth
the recreation division (Skidoo, Seadoo, OMC) was for sale. Bombardier has
had heavy losses in their aircraft and train division, and needs to take a
$1-$3 billion write-off and issue $1 billion in new stock.The recreation
division is expected to sell for about $1 billion. The recreation division
generated $66 million profits on sales of $745 million.
"JDavis1277" <jdavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030405095047...@mb-fh.aol.com...
Joseph Stachyra
Profit of 66 million on 750 some million vested.
I'd get a better return on Savings Bonds, No Wonder the Canadians are
selling it.... their not stupid !!!!!
Skipper
> At a press conference on Thursday the president of Bombardier announced that
> the recreation division (Skidoo, Seadoo, OMC) was for sale. Bombardier has
> had heavy losses in their aircraft and train division, and needs to take a
> $1-$3 billion write-off and issue $1 billion in new stock.The recreation
> division is expected to sell for about $1 billion. The recreation division
> generated $66 million profits on sales of $745 million.
The engineering and management defects are so severe in their aircraft
division that I believe they're insurmountable. Their current Tucson
management team is absurdly incompetent. Bombardier is an astonishly
poorly managed operation.
--
Skipper
Dan Krueger
years with many of their products. I haven't seen their financials but
I'm sure they are taking some rather large charges to depreciate their
R&D as well as writing off the goodwill from the OMC purchase. From
what I have seen, they have invested a lot of money in their new
facilites and manufacturing equipment.
Dan
del cecchi
snip
>
> Residues after detonation are a common symptom in aero engines that
> have been run too lean at power. The "residues are all sorts of
> chemical stuff caused by the extreme pressure/heat combos which
> never occur in "normal" combustion.
Do they look like carbon?
>
>
>
> Well as I said they (Ficht) have been filing on it for a couple of
> years now but .... energy is still energy. As for the time we go
> back to where we were arguing in the old days & it seems the raw
> data is, that a Ficht injector in full flight actually starts
> injection 340 degs+ BEFORE tdc. So the previous charge has only just
> stopped burning!! Each cycle is only 10 ms at 6000 rpm. Sure you can
> play with some limited storage (caps) & even manipulate the pressure
> of delivery (volts) but in the end the real issue is that it takes
> lots of energy to suddenly take the pressure up by a factor of say
> 15 & then drop it back down again so the injector can replenish. The
> Yamahas don't have that issue they just have it 100% of the time
> available so the injection is all they have to worry about & again
> remember they are using 1000 psi in some circumstance which shows
> just how critical atomisation is if DFI is to even have a chance.
> Yamaha seem to be getting out of the 2 strokes in favour of the 4
> strokes.
Ya sure, 4 strokes are the future. You betcha. uffda.
Just a little Minnesota dialect to counteract the oz. :-)
Meanwhile the struggles or efforts of the 2stroke guys are interesting.
I think the last couple of years, OMC was short enough on money that
retooling the whole electrical system was out of the question. Of
course we don't know if that would have helped.
As for energy, a 200 HP motor at WOT using 20 Gal/hr. call it 3 ft**3
of gas. 1000 psi is 144000 lb/sq foot. 144000 lb/ft**2 times 3 ft**3
is 500,000 ft-lb/hr, now a hp is 550 ft-lb/sec if I remember correctly
so since 500,000/hr is 140 ft-lb/sec or 1/3 hp or 250 watts. hmm, 20
amps at 12 volts. Maybe double to take into account inefficiencies.
500 watts isn't out of the question, although stuff would get warm
unless water cooled.
Of course you wouldn't get any of the data about the new parts until a
while after they were available publicly so your products would be a
year or two later than your competition. But you could buy the parts.
del cecchi
>
> > > > del
Harry Krause
> "K. Smith" <ksm...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3E8EA185...@tpg.com.au...
>
> snip
>>
>> Residues after detonation are a common symptom in aero engines that
>> have been run too lean at power. The "residues are all sorts of
>> chemical stuff caused by the extreme pressure/heat combos which
>> never occur in "normal" combustion.
>
> Do they look like carbon?
How the hell would K. Smith know? She/he has never seen the insides of
any of these engines. Ahh, maybe she/he read about it somewhere.