I'm wondering why the ice chest? Just to pump hot air in and suck cold
out, might as well use a cardboard box.
How are you gonna get 20lbs of ice per hour on a boat? You'll have to
stay at the marina, where you might as well plug in a regular air
conditioner.
Steve
You're not really that dumb, are you?
What difference would it make? The function of an ice chest is to
insulate. If you are pumping hot air into it, why would you need to
insulate it? If you think different, show me the science.
I don't think the insulated cooler is as necessary as something that
will hold the water after the ice melts. This is besides the fact I'm
just wondering if this thing works well and if it really requires that
much ice. 20 lbs an hour is not really an option when you are on a
boat, but if 20lbs would cool the cabin for a night that would be cool.
I like the testimonials:
Mitchell Oates of Mooresville, NC. (President, Charlotte Chapter of the
Electric Auto Association e-mailed:
"Last summer, on days when temperatures were in the 80's, having the
Icester on medium and blowing out into the cab kept the cab comfortable
on the way to work. Running on high this same way actually made it very
cool in the cab and I would have to direct air flow away from me as it
would start to get uncomfortably cool on exposed skin. On days when
temperatures were in the 90's, I would turn the Icester so that it was
blowing directly on me.While the cab itself was on the muggy side,
having the air blow directly on me kept me comfortable. Two bags of ice
from a local store fill the ice chest to capacity, and even on high on
the hottest days, on arrival at work, more than half the ice was still
left.
Why didn't the "President" of the Auto Electric Association, jsut get
his auto air conditioner fixed?
Waterproof cardboard. I'm sure it uses that much ice. Just think you
have to exchange thermal energy. So, you have to put a lot of heat into
the thing to get cool air out. That is exactly why an insulated cooler
is useless. You are blowing hot air directly into the thing, and it is
immediately expelled out as cool air. The replier that said I was
stupid must fail to understand this.
> Does anybody besides me:
>
> 1 - think this is a little obvious?
>
> 2 - Is reminded of the classic cartoon air conditions - a block of ice
> and a rotating fan? :>)
Putting a fan in an open refrigerator door and sitting in front of it..
Yes!
That's what I was thinking...and how humid that would be in a boat cabin.
This unit works by pumping cold *water* through a heat exchanger, not air
across ice.
>If you think different, show me the science.
The science is basic- heat always moves to cold.
The cooler is insulating the ice from absorbing heat from whatever it is
resting on, thus saving the ice for where it can be used more efficiently-
in the heat exchanger.
Horseshit!!! The science is cold is simply lack of heat. You are
blowing the same exact air across the ice that the ice would be exposed
to. If you are pumping 90 degree air into that cooler, what difference
would it make whether or not the container was insulated??? Try it.
Take a given amount of ice and put in a ice chest. Place another in a
cardboard box. Blow the same exact amount of air into each, with the
same exact equipment, and the same exact exhaust. Measure the
temperature of the exhaust. Guess what? They'll be the same.
You really are that dumb.
\Well, damn! Tell me HOW in the hell insulation would help if you are
pumping the exact same are that you are trying to insulate FROM right
into the cooler!!??? Again, see my last two sentences above. Try it.
Everything exactly the same except for the container. And again, if you
are pumping the same exact air into the chest that you are trying to
insulate from, just what IS the insulation doing? Take this for
instance. Take a piece of isopolycyanurate insulation outdoors. Take
the temperature on one side of the piece. Take the temperature on the
other side of the piece. Huh? They are the same? Imagine THAT! That is
exactly the scenario you'll see with the ice chest. You are pumping air
into it that is exactly the same temperature as that that you are
trying to insulate against. Dumb indeed!
Lets make this easier for you. I'll just repost 1 sentence. Try and
comprehend it then get back to me.
And it will work the same exact way whether it's water, air whatever.
What you are failing to understand is that once water (or air, or
whatever) goes through the heat exchanger, it's what? HOT. So, you
force water (or air or whatever) through an ice chest. How does the ice
chest help? In order for this thing to work, then the water would be at
a higher temperature going back into the thing than the ambient air
temperature. Ergo, again, the ice chest is useless except for a holding
vessel.
Wow... he really is.
--Mike
"Sam" <S...@no.com> wrote in message news:DWzeh.628$Ft4.14@trnddc02...
Prove me wrong, then! You do realize that you are flowing hot water
back into the system, don't you? You do realize that for that water to
have a cooling affect on the air, that the air has transferred heat to
that water, don't you? So, you do realize that that water, in order to
cool with any noticeable amount, would be quite warm, usually warming
than the ambient air temperature, don't you?
That too, real AC does a lot more than just cool, it removes humidity.
That's responsible for as much comfort as the cool air is.
And you do realize the water returns to the "box" where the heat is
extracted by the ice as it circulates, right?
Now if you can grasp that, which "box" will be more efficient at this heat
transfer- The cooler, or the cardboard box?
>So, you do realize that that water, in order to cool with any noticeable
>amount, would be quite warm, usually warming
> than the ambient air temperature, don't you?
LOL!
The Laws of Thermodynamics be damned! Basskisser says so.
Just killfile him like I did. He's really not the effort, and the noise
ratio goes way down. :->
--Mike
"Sam" <S...@no.com> wrote in message news:tYGeh.1013$LL4.149@trnddc04...
You have no idea what you are talking about. If you cite the laws of
thermodynamics, you'd know that the water MUST warm up in order to
"HEAT EXCHANGE". How else would it cool the air? Now, since you've
cited the laws, SHOW ME. I'll be waiting.......
Next, show me where anything I've stated in this thread goes against
the laws of thermodynamics. I'll be waiting for that, too. Unless you
want to admit you don't know what you're talking about. One of the
other.
Awe.....don't cry and whine.....
>> LOL!
>> The Laws of Thermodynamics be damned! Basskisser says so.
>
> You have no idea what you are talking about. If you cite the laws of
> thermodynamics, you'd know that the water MUST warm up in order to
> "HEAT EXCHANGE". How else would it cool the air? Now, since you've
> cited the laws, SHOW ME. I'll be waiting.......
Of course I do, I never said it didn't.
> Next, show me where anything I've stated in this thread goes against
> the laws of thermodynamics. I'll be waiting for that, too. Unless you
> want to admit you don't know what you're talking about. One of the
> other.
Here ya go-
" So, you do realize that that water, in order to cool with any noticeable
amount, would be quite warm, usually warmer than the ambient air
temperature, don't you?"
Oh, so above, you're admitting that I'm correct. The water MUST warm up
in order to "HEAT EXCHANGE". Thanks!
Where did I ever say that the cold water didn't absorb heat to cool the air?
Of course it does dimbulb.
> Next, show me where anything I've stated in this thread goes against
> the laws of thermodynamics. I'll be waiting for that, too. Unless you
> want to admit you don't know what you're talking about. One of the
> other.
Here it is again in case you missed it the first time-
" So, you do realize that that water, in order to cool with any noticeable
amount, would be quite warm, usually warmer than the ambient air
temperature, don't you?"
So, please explain how the cold water in the heat exchanger becomes warmer
than the ambient air.
I'll be waiting.
Uh, perhaps by EXCHANGE of HEAT?
Now, please show which law of thermodynamics I've broken by what I've
stated.
Again, thanks for agreeing with me. I at first thought that you didn't.
Oh, and your petty and childish name calling shows that you aren't
credible, and also that you don't know what you're talking about. If
you did, you could do so in a manner that would make one think that you
are actually able to carry on a decent conversation.
So long as it has ice in it, the temperature will remain quite constant.
The energy is absorbed by the state change from solid to liquid water.
As soon as all the ice is gone, the temperature will start to rise
pretty quickly, but it will never go over ambient air temperature.
Go turn on your A/C for awhile, feel the return line. It will be quite
a bit warmer than ambient temperature. And again, if you are pumping
warm water back into the ice chest, let's just say AT ambient
temperature, the insulation of the chest will do no good.
The return (suction) line is quite a bit cooler than ambient. A properly
charged system will return a small amount of refrigerant to the
condensing unit in a liquid state to help cool the compressor. The
liquid line however will be warmer than ambient, this is because when
the refrigerant is compressed it will turn to a superheated gas which
then flows through the condenser where it is cooled by ambient air and
condenses to a liquid, no matter how efficient the condenser it will
still never be dropped quite down to ambient temperature, nothing is
ever 100% efficient. When it gets to the evaporator, it is metered in
though either a fixed orifice or (ideally) a thermostatic valve which
allows just the right amount into the evaporator so that it absorbs heat
and boils almost entirely away, leaving just enough liquid to cool the
compressor without wasting energy flooding the evaporator. I'm a
certified HVAC tech and have done quite a bit of work on domestic stuff
so I'm quite familiar with this. We're talking about two different
things here, a closed loop phase change refrigeration system is not the
same principal as a bucket of ice water.
At least the first law- energy cannot be created or destroyed.
You stated that the water in the heat exchanger will become warmer than
ambient.
If this were true the heat exchanger would be working in excess of 100%
efficiency, thus creating energy.
LOL!
You're a joke a minute.
Sam,
You are new here, it is best if you don't try to "win" an argument with
Bassy.
Consider who you are responding to.......the "King of the NG idiots".
He is not the brightest bulb in the marquee........most likely form
drinking too much of that "schnapps whiskey"
You are responding to a person who believes that "schanpps" is "whiskey"
Beware.....he may try to "cow down" you next.
In this type of system, where the working fluid does not undergo phase
changes or significant changes of pressure during it's cycle, it would
be impossible for the working fluid to become warmer than the ambient
air temperature and still cool the ambient air. Doing so would violate
the 2nd law of thermodynamics. One of the many equivalent statements
of that law is by Clausius, which is "Heat cannot of itself pass from a
colder to a hotter body."
For this system, if the working fluid became hotter than the air and is
still cooling the air, then heat is passing from a colder to a hotter
body, thus violating the 2nd law.
"isopolycyanurate"? Let me help you with that big word...
Polyisocyanurate. It's sold at your local Home Depot under a variety of
brand names. IIRC, the R-value is 7.2 per inch - one of the best for
home sheathing.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Sam, this guy is a serious joke. He argues for the sake of an argument. He's
a moron... don't waste your energy.
--Mike
"Sam" <S...@no.com> wrote in message news:Y52fh.883$IO5.733@trnddc01...
> And again, if you are pumping warm water back into the ice chest, let's
> just say AT ambient
> temperature, the insulation of the chest will do no good.
Good for you, you finally made a statement that is true! *Once* the water
reaches ambient the insulation of the chest is worthless.
What you're failing to grasp is that up until that point the cooler is
focusing the heat gain at the heat exchanger where it is useful, whereas the
cardboard box will allow much more heat to be absorbed from the box itself,
the floor the box is sitting on, and the air around the box.
>
> In this type of system, where the working fluid does not undergo phase
> changes or significant changes of pressure during it's cycle, it would
> be impossible for the working fluid to become warmer than the ambient
> air temperature and still cool the ambient air. Doing so would violate
> the 2nd law of thermodynamics. One of the many equivalent statements
> of that law is by Clausius, which is "Heat cannot of itself pass from a
> colder to a hotter body."
>
> For this system, if the working fluid became hotter than the air and is
> still cooling the air, then heat is passing from a colder to a hotter
> body, thus violating the 2nd law.
>
Just to add to the confusion ....
When there *is* a phase change (i.e. water going from a liquid to a vapor
or visa versa) ... energy is consumed and is called the latent heat of
evaporation or, in the case of vapor to solid, the latent heat of
deposition. Whatever source provided that energy will become cooler. That
source could be ambient air temp, humans, whatever. It's why you may feel a
chill from a breeze on a hot, humid day when you are sweating or when you
first getting out of a hot shower. There are evaporative coolers made using
this principle although they are not as effective as AC units.
Eisboch
No track record of lying.
How? It's transferred, not created. That is why they call it HEAT
EXCHANGE.
>
> You stated that the water in the heat exchanger will become warmer than
> ambient.
> If this were true the heat exchanger would be working in excess of 100%
> efficiency, thus creating energy.
Uh, no it wouldn't. It would simply be EXCHANGING HEAT.
You keep forgetting that heat is nothing more than energy, and can be
stored.
Your petty insults prove without a doubt that you are unable to give an
explanation or proof of why the ice in the ice chest would be more
efficient at cooling the ambient air with this particular system, than
when it was in a cardboard box, or other vessel.
Infatuation.......
Infatuation......
It's driving Dan crazy....
It's making Dan CRAAAZZZYYY....
> Sam, this guy is a serious joke. He argues for the sake of an argument. He's
> a moron... don't waste your energy.
>
> --Mike
Does mommy know you're on her computer calling people childish and
petty names?
If you check, you'll find cyanurate is a "real word".
If not a word, what is the correct grammatical term for polyisocyanurate
besides a collection of abbreviations?
Come on now, were waiting for a cite.
If you've read many, many documents with the "abbreviations" in both orders
how come at least one does not come up with a Google search of
"isopolycyanurate"? Google doesn't even offer an alternate spelling and I
believe Google is much more intelligent than you are.
Some folks here were giving you credit for being 12 years old. I believe
that is very generous.
Wonder if 'our Smithers' is similar to Waylon Smithers?
http://www.thesimpsons.com/characters/home.htm
Remember- "Heat cannot of itself pass from a colder to a hotter body."
So where is this additional energy coming from?
>Twin brothers, though I believe Waylon is his real name, and he has a boat.
But Bert *did* make a good point earlier. Did you notice?
--
******************************************
***** Have a super day! *****
******************************************
John
For some reason I am thinking of a little boy who lived next door, he
would cause trouble just to get attention, it didn't matter if it made
him look foolish, just so long as people paid attention to him.
I found if I ignore the little boy, he would not disrupt the adults as
much as when we said something to him.
It's coming from a hotter body to a colder body.......
So, you just DON'T get it at all do you? You keep forgetting about this
little piece of equipment in the way, the HEAT EXCHANGER.
Keep telling yourself that.
I've seen many, many documents with the
> abbreviations in both orders.
They were wrong, too.
> But, hey, you've followed me to another thread!!!!
>
> Infatuation.......
> Infatuation......
> It's driving Dan crazy....
> It's making Dan CRAAAZZZYYY....
>
I follow you to EVERY thread, remember? Got to keep your stories
straight, boy.
He was narcissistic.
>> Remember- "Heat cannot of itself pass from a colder to a hotter body."
>>
>> So where is this additional energy coming from?
>
> It's coming from a hotter body to a colder body.......
> So, you just DON'T get it at all do you? You keep forgetting about this
> little piece of equipment in the way, the HEAT EXCHANGER.
Yes, the ambient (hotter) is flowing to the chilled water (colder) up until
the point where (you say) the water can become warmer than the ambient.
Once you make the statement that the chilled water warms to the point that
it exceeds the ambient you have violated the 2nd law.
At that point you are saying that heat is passing from a colder to a hotter
body.
Care to share your recent contributions, Harry? Boating - not
alt.substitutionforeducation.ullico or "Ford wants me". You may find
your personal interests of value but there are dozens of other groups
for that.
For some reason I continue to credit Harry with a little more maturity than
a few of our other noteworthy 'little boys'. This is probably where I'm
making my mistake.
(But, Bert *did* have a good point!) :>)
--
John H
*Have a great Christmas and a spectacular New Year!*
"It is common for persons with an infatuation disorder to suddenly, and
without provocation, act as though they dislike the very person they
are stalking."
Infatuation......
Infatuation.....
It's driving Dan crazy....
It's making Dan CRAAAZZZYYY......
How much time did you spend on that? Sounds like a sickness.
20 pounds of ice @ 144 btus heat of fusion per pound is 2,880 btus.
Raising the temperature of cold water would provide a bit more cooling.
So it's about a 3000 btu air conditioner for one hour, assuming its
heat exchanger setup had enough throughput to melt all the ice in one
hour. An AC air conditioner, for example the "Marine Air Portable
dockside AC unit effectively cools cabins on boats 20'-30'; 6,720
btu" so it's half the cooling of a *small* air conditioner (ignoring
dehumidifying effects, we'll assume it's 100% humidity on a stifling
day in Panama). Pretty lame, I'd suggest putting the ice in bags and
sittin' on 'em.
Stretching it to last 10 hours would require 200 pounds of ice, or an
output drop to 300 btus an hour, typical cooling capacity of a 12 volt
Adler Barber Cold Machine air cooled reefer setup goin' full blast.
Not much if you're trying to cool a boat, test by opening up your
reefer and blowing a fan on it.
Beware, they also make evaporative type "Swamp Coolers", which *do*
work great in low humidity areas like the desert. My Dad had one with
an intake cowl on it (no electrical wires) that fit in a partially
unrolled window on his '69 Jeep Wagoneer; you had to pull a cord
periodically to rewet the evaporative pad. At 60mph, pullin' that cord
resulted in a blast of cold air! Also had to refill it often if it was
ragin' hot and dry.
The only 12 volt AC I've heard of that might work is one that sucks up
water 10 feet below your boat, hopefully below a thermocline, and runs
air through a heat exchanger onboard. Pricey though, cupronickel
tubing.
About 10 seconds. Why? I know you are infatuated to the point of
stalking, but do you need to know every little detail of my life?
Sounds like a sickness.
>
> --
Yes, you DO have a "sickness" and there are professional people that
will help you with your infatuation complex.
10 seconds? You felt compelled to Google some quote and you did it in
10 seconds? Amazing. Good job, boy, now go clean your room.
I don't know about this unit but swamp coolers have been pointed out by
others as a possibility. They don't work if there is a lot of humidity but
in dryer areas they are great. A few things to note if you do go the way of
the swamp cooler. Keep all of your windows open, they need a lot of air
circulation and keep plenty fresh water in it. They sell small ones and most
of them out there today have all of the pumps and fans built in. They are
also relatively inexpensive and easy to repair plus they use less energy than
AC.
I used to work at Home Depot in So Cal and you wouldn't believe how many
people used these in their homes. I got one because of low energy usage for
a room that didn't have air conditioning in my house. It worked great.
--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com
Comical.....typical kevin doing exact;y what he has whined about others
doing to him......and he wonders why he is still "king of the ng idiots"
Every single thread, there you are stalking. Tell me, is your
infatuation due to the fact that you look up to me like a little boy
does his dad, or is it because your gay?
I'd say a 'school girl crush'!
Come on! I almost puked my lunch up.......
Did you get any on you?
Can't read YET can you? Notice the word "almost"???
Sorry..all the signs point that way. Good thing he doesn't live
anywhere near you. What's that song...'Looking for Love in all the
Wrong Places'..
> Dan wrote:
>>
>> 10 seconds? You felt compelled to Google some quote and you did it in
>> 10 seconds? Amazing. Good job, boy, now go clean your room.
>>
>
> Comical.....typical kevin doing exact;y what he has whined about others
> doing to him......and he wonders why he is still "king of the ng idiots"
>
He may never get it. His immaturity is inconsistent with someone who is
offended when he is referred to as a "boy".
Are you telling the newsgroup that I'm gay? Please be specific in your
response.
And that would be moronic, at best. Nice try. Did you giggle to
yourself when you hit "send" on that one, Donnie?
Excatly.
> Excatly.
Seeing how you think you are quite special when you point out someone
else's typos or misspellings, WTF is THAT??
Infatuation......
Infatuation.....
It's driving Dan crazy.....
It's making Dan CRRRAAAZZZYYY.....
Eggsactlie!
I don't take advice from little boys no matter how much experience they
have with mental ailments.
What are you saying? Please be specific.
That sure looks like a statement (with poor grammar). So what where you
implying? Be specific, please.
How to HELL is "Not even when you're on a date with one, stalker?" a
statement? It's a friggin' QUESTION. Can't get anymore specific than
that.
OK. It's an implication in a question. Like "Does your mother know you
are gay?", for example. Get it now? What are you implying? Be
specific, please.
--
Kevin still has problems with basic english......"how to hell" LMAO
Add to that how upset he got when asked the question "Had he stopped
beating his wife" he never could answer witha straight yes or no :-)
>
>Kevin still has problems with basic english......"how to hell" LMAO
>
>Add to that how upset he got when asked the question "Had he stopped
>beating his wife" he never could answer witha straight yes or no :-)
Animal, please don't agitate basskisser. It adds nothing to the group and
simply expands the name-calling.
I promise not to respond to him either.
--
John H
*Have a great Christmas and a spectacular New Year!*