OptiMax Engines
Beek
respectively. Has anyone else had a similar experience? They both seemed to
be running fine right up to the second that they lost power and started
knocking.
jrd
I have had 2 i/o, 4 outboards and have been around inboards.
The inboards never caused any problems.
Seems to me outboards are the most dependable when they are 40 hp and under.
John
"Beek" <be...@islc.net> wrote in message
news:9gbmp...@enews3.newsguy.com...
K. Smith
Bad design, not properly developed before market, similar probs to the
Fichts but not nearly as bad, they nurse them through the EPA requirements by
deliberately running them very lean from idle up to around 2000 rpm, trouble
is engines detonate when run on a lean mixture. (absolutely well known &
understood for well over 70 yrs)
Bigger engines, with lots of pitch to provide high top speed, on bigger
heavier boats can spend lots of time in that rev range (going through no wake
zones etc) & particularly bigger engines can be making quite some power
despite the lowish revs. So lean mixture, making power, over sustained periods
= detonation damage.
They know all about it, not that any real admissions have been made,
indeed apparently Merc have dropped supply of the 200-225 Optimaxes because of
the failure rate.
I hope you're still warranted, if so when they replace them, slightly
under prop them then,
(i) don't leave them in the lean burn rev range for extended
periods (either back right off or power through it quickly) &
(ii) because you'll be a bit under propped, make sure you don't
operate them at too high a sustained cruise revs or over rev them outright
obviously.
I they're not under warranty get 4 strokes or wait for the higher HP
Yamaha or Merc 4 strokes; 2 strokes trying to run clean are trouble waiting to
happen, although your wait is over.
Regards,
K
hkr...@capuantispam.net
>
>
> They know all about it, not that any real admissions have been made,
> indeed apparently Merc have dropped supply of the 200-225 Optimaxes because of
> the failure rate.
Wrong. Again.
--
Harry Krause
------------
That's Washington. That's the place where you find people getting ready to
jump
out of the foxholes before the first shot is fired. -GW Bush
BillS
Beek wrote:
I have 2 x 1998 135 Optis with close to 260 hrs each on a 23' Whaler Conquest.
No problems whatsoever other than an easily repaired minor oil leak when the
motor was tilted up. Usage is offshore at high load keeping a boat at minimal
planing speed through 3-4 foot gulf chop (2800-3200 Rpm) followed by a lot of
trolling and idle-->2000 rpm cycles to re-establish a drift over structure.
What year are your motors? Have they had the factory updates required for the
older motors? What kind of fuel do you use? What kind of oil? What is the
usage, trolling, mid range, high load, high speed? What has your dealer
support been for the problems you encountered? Were these two different motors
or the same problem with the same motor? Enquiring Opti owners want to know.
BillS
K. Smith
> "K. Smith" wrote:
> >
> >
> > They know all about it, not that any real admissions have been made,
> > indeed apparently Merc have dropped supply of the 200-225 Optimaxes because of
> > the failure rate.
>
> Wrong. Again.
>
If so my apologies, but as you know there have been several "reports" that
they've stopped deliveries of the larger motors with no explanations, but if this
is not correct or if you know anymore please post the details.
Best regards as always,
K
hkr...@capuantispam.net
Merc stopped deliveries of the big horse 2001 Optis in the last week of 2001
production...and switched over early to the 2002 run. There apparently was a
spark plug change. That's all.
--
Harry Krause
------------
It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it. -GW
K. Smith
> Beek wrote:
>
> > I recently had two Mercury, OptiMax 150's 'blow up' at 104 and 111 hours,
> > respectively. Has anyone else had a similar experience? They both seemed to
> > be running fine right up to the second that they lost power and started
> > knocking.
>
There might be a rational explanation as to why the lower powered motors give
"less" trouble, such as;
(i) the 135 HP Optis are just a very detuned 150 HP so they are essentially a 3
ltr engine putting out a max of 135 HP which is very very lazy (45HP/ltr most 4
stroke car engines are up over the 60HP/ltr range),
(ii) The 135s will be propped for the max HP(135) so at the lower revs when
running lean will not be requiring too much power to be made so even though
they're still detonating it's not enough to break anything,.........but please
worry anyway if the warranty is ended (hit anything with a hammer long enough &..)
(iii) Clearly not every Opti fails not even a significant minority but enough
that the design is flawed & the technology is a dead end as was Ficht pretty much
for the same reasons.
(iv) There are enough larger optis on larger fast boats failing to make it
prudent to deprop them a bit & avoid the lean burn rev range if at all possible
indeed;
(v) by having the same engines, running much less pitch & never giving them
enough load so they "need" to make power when at lean burn revs you've actually
proved it works as a tactic to try & ensure some reasonable life out of the hotted
up versions of your base engine.
Trouble is if the future is that it takes a very heavy, V6 3 ltr, complicated
(more complication/parts than a 4 stroke), expensive to make 2 stroke, needing
"special" expensive plugs just to try & ignite the lean mix, so you can maybe make
135 HP it's a sad thing, particularly when the 4 strokes do it much lighter,
cleaner & it's seems more reliably
Anyway "my brand is best" loyalty is a nice warn thing almost like religion
really, about as rational too.
Regards,
K
K. Smith
> "K. Smith" wrote:
> >
> > hkr...@capuantispam.net wrote:
> >
> > > "K. Smith" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > They know all about it, not that any real admissions have been made,
> > > > indeed apparently Merc have dropped supply of the 200-225 Optimaxes because of
> > > > the failure rate.
> > >
> > > Wrong. Again.
> > >
> >
> > If so my apologies, but as you know there have been several "reports" that
> > they've stopped deliveries of the larger motors with no explanations, but if this
> > is not correct or if you know anymore please post the details.
> >
> > Best regards as always,
> >
> > K
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Harry Krause
> > > ------------
> > >
> > > That's Washington. That's the place where you find people getting ready to
> > > jump
> > > out of the foxholes before the first shot is fired. -GW Bush
>
> Merc stopped deliveries of the big horse 2001 Optis in the last week of 2001
> production...and switched over early to the 2002 run. There apparently was a
> spark plug change. That's all.
>
Thanks for that Harry I truly appreciate it, needless to say I don't retreat from
my other comments but stand corrected on the "stopped delivery" question.
Apologies & thanks again.
Regards,
K
Brian
"K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3B2AA937...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
> BillS wrote:
>
> > Beek wrote:
> >
> > > I recently had two Mercury, OptiMax 150's 'blow up' at 104 and 111
hours,
> > > respectively. Has anyone else had a similar experience? They both
seemed to
> > > be running fine right up to the second that they lost power and
started
> > > knocking.
> >
>
> There might be a rational explanation as to why the lower powered
motors give
> "less" trouble, such as;
>
> (i) the 135 HP Optis are just a very detuned 150 HP so they are
essentially a 3
> ltr engine putting out a max of 135 HP which is very very lazy (45HP/ltr
most 4
> stroke car engines are up over the 60HP/ltr range),
2ltr not 3ltr. I haven't had the opportuity to run an OPTI 135, but the
standard 135 Mercs are outstanding in terms of smoothnes and performance in
their class.
>
> (ii) The 135s will be propped for the max HP(135) so at the lower revs
when
> running lean will not be requiring too much power to be made so even
though
> they're still detonating it's not enough to break anything,.........but
please
> worry anyway if the warranty is ended (hit anything with a hammer long
enough &..)
detonation detectors and are run 'on the edge' under some conditions. Don't
you think Merc (or Evinrude or Yamaha..) would use similar technology if
they needed it?
>
> (iii) Clearly not every Opti fails not even a significant minority but
enough
> that the design is flawed & the technology is a dead end as was Ficht
pretty much
> for the same reasons.
>
> (iv) There are enough larger optis on larger fast boats failing to make
it
> prudent to deprop them a bit & avoid the lean burn rev range if at all
possible
> indeed;
>
> (v) by having the same engines, running much less pitch & never giving
them
> enough load so they "need" to make power when at lean burn revs you've
actually
> proved it works as a tactic to try & ensure some reasonable life out of
the hotted
> up versions of your base engine.
>
> Trouble is if the future is that it takes a very heavy, V6 3 ltr,
complicated
> (more complication/parts than a 4 stroke), expensive to make 2 stroke,
needing
> "special" expensive plugs just to try & ignite the lean mix, so you can
maybe make
> 135 HP it's a sad thing, particularly when the 4 strokes do it much
lighter,
> cleaner & it's seems more reliably
behemoth.
It's nearly 100LB heavier, requires a heavy, bottom mounted flywheel and
balance shafts to dampen the shake inherent in the 4 stroke design, and
still requires computer controlled EFI and ignition so it can run with a
lean enough mixture to provide competitive fuel economy. And you claim that
a lean mixture is a problem for the OPTI?
>
> Anyway "my brand is best" loyalty is a nice warn thing almost like
religion
> really, about as rational too.
K. Smith
>
> "K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3B2AA937...@nospamiprimus.com.au..
> >
> > > Beek wrote:
> > >
> > > > I recently had two Mercury, OptiMax 150's 'blow up' at 104 and 111
> hours,
> > > > respectively. Has anyone else had a similar experience? They both
> seemed to
> > > > be running fine right up to the second that they lost power and
> started
> > > > knocking.
> > >
> >
> > There might be a rational explanation as to why the lower powered
> motors give
> > "less" trouble, such as;
> >
> > (i) the 135 HP Optis are just a very detuned 150 HP so they are
> essentially a 3
> > ltr engine putting out a max of 135 HP which is very very lazy (45HP/ltr
> most 4
> > stroke car engines are up over the 60HP/ltr range),
> You're probably right that that the 135 is a detuned 150 but I think it's
> 2ltr not 3ltr. I haven't had the opportuity to run an OPTI 135, but the
> standard 135 Mercs are outstanding in terms of smoothnes and performance in
> their class.
> >
Sorry not on my machine so if this not legible .......
Agree on the "old" Merc 135 it was a lovely 2 ltr motor well liked but I think
the 135 Hp Opti is 3ltrs again can I rely/impose upon Harry to verify for me???
> > (ii) The 135s will be propped for the max HP(135) so at the lower revs
> when
> > running lean will not be requiring too much power to be made so even
> though
> > they're still detonating it's not enough to break anything,.........but
> please
> > worry anyway if the warranty is ended (hit anything with a hammer long
> enough &..)
> I'm not sure what this means. Modern auto motors are equipped with
> detonation detectors and are run 'on the edge' under some conditions. Don't
> you think Merc (or Evinrude or Yamaha..) would use similar technology if
> they needed it?
Yes I agree but they don't; why??? I don't know but I can hasard a couple of
guesses, with explanations (any takers?);
(i) The Fichts probably couldn't because the banging of the impact injectors would
make a Knock all the time anyway, maybe they could have differentiated.... they did try
to sense the condition I describe with their much promoted exhaust pressure sensor, then
what? an engine at power on a lean mixture will detonate, they couldn't tell the ECU to
richen because then they fail the EPA;........ but well that's history;
(ii) The Optis? hmmmm.... a good question; all the knock sensors are usually on 4
strokes so maybe there's a difficulty there or maybe they accept some detonation when
lean as part of the design so "knock" will occur as part of the price for having a
crankcase transferred 2 stroke comply.
(iii) Tehn say a knock sensor were fitted & it did detect detonation at the lean burn
revs???; what's it going to do??? at low revs most of the engines speed control is
carried out by manipulating the spark timing so if it retarded the spark in an effort to
mitigate against the detonation (the usual tactic in 4 strokes) the engine would just
slow down, indeed that's part of the lean burn problem they already have the spark
timing as retarded as far as practicable so what then??
(iv) Certainly the Optis are better than the Fichts were in that they can at least
try to keep a puff of nearly correct mixture around (but not on) the plug, even so they
need "special" plugs & high energy ignition to get reliable ignition of the lean
mixtures (Ficht just multiple fired the plug, honestly ;-))
Anyway just a guess as I said but I don't think in the 2 stroke premises a knock
sensor will help because there's not much to be done, just hope the piston/rings setup
is strong enough, the detonation doesn't continue too long so heat builds up & it
becomes self sustaining even after the engine goes on past lean burn mode.
True the Honda is heavy & heavier thats why I mentioned the new big 4 strokes
which are apparently coming soon. (why would Merc be going to a 4 stroke in the higher
HP if the Optis were successful?)
requires a heavy, bottom mounted flywheel and
> balance shafts to dampen the shake inherent in the 4 stroke design, and
> still requires computer controlled EFI and ignition so it can run with a
> lean enough mixture to provide competitive fuel economy.
That I don't agree with the Honda doesn't run a "lean" mixture but the "correct"
mixture as do all other EFI systems I know of. The only deliberate lean burn systems are
the ficht (didn't work) the Optis (hmmm we'll see) & the 4 stroke DFI systems like
Mitsubishi which ONLY run lean in specified circumstances like idle, overrun & very
light load high speed cruise; other than idle in neutral, these are situations an
outboard never sees.
And you claim that
> a lean mixture is a problem for the OPTI?
Yes I do & have for a very long time & I've been stoned many times (well not
literally since the 60s, hmm maybe the 70s but definitely not in the 80s well other
than that time........ but that was diferent;-)) but I'm sticking with it although the
demise of OMC mostly on account of the Ficht debacle has given me heart & while I
totally accept what Harry says about reasons for the non shipment of big Optis being
down to "plug" problems & certainly I don't claim any better information, equally it
is worht considering; what are they going to say?? Once the fact was out, they had to
say something or their dealer teams, the share market, the potential buyers etc all get
stoppy imagine if Amway stopped supplying their "special very expensive but worth it"
toilet cleaner to the troops they'd have to come up with some excuse, is it the true
reason?? Sans any real independent facts, I say "probably" but no higher than that.
> >
> > Anyway "my brand is best" loyalty is a nice warn thing almost like
> religion
> > really, about as rational too.
> I am certainly not a Merc fan.
Gee I & my cronies are!!! always better than OMC & till lately Yamaha.
Thanks for the response
Best Regards
K
K. Smith
> Brian wrote:
all snipped
Sorry Brian?
I have just been reminded that Orbital announced a knock sensing system for their
technology late last year, no details yet (of course ;-)) & no indication of if or when it
might work it's way through to Optimaxes.
Again I guess sensing the knock is not really the issue, what to do about it????: if
you can't richen fuel or retard spark timing???? variable compression ratio???? Yamaha DFI
shuts cyls down selectively so the remaining can run proper mixture & have better spark
timimg, but then why not just have a 4 stroke & run the correct mixture & spark timing like
everybody else??
Sorry dinner Saturday night here ;-)
Regards,
K
Beek
problems. Couple of days later we went out dolphin fishing for the day.
Motors ran fine. On the way back in, running at 3600, the port engine lost
power and immediately started knocking loudly. Shut it down and made the
dock on the starboard. A compression check showed 30# on the top stbd cyl
and alum filings on the plug. After lots of difficulty contacting Mercury,
we took off for the closest dealer (Spanish Wells). Had been running about 3
hours at 4000 when the stbd engine did the same thing. Managed to get it to
idle in forward and limp into Hatchet Bay. Next day we were towed 6 hours to
Spanish Wells where the Merc dealer who had earlier told us he could work on
them, made lots of excuses re the beginning lobster season, shortage of
mechanics, etc, etc. I arranged to have my boat returned to the US on
shipboard and flew home. Am awaiting its return and that's where it now
stands. The motors are 99 year models, I use the best fuel I can find (this
was in the Bahamas) and the oil was Havoline 2-cycle.
"BillS" <BillSEATS...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3B2A1AB3...@austin.rr.com...
Bill Gran
>
> hkr...@capuantispam.net wrote:
>
> > "K. Smith" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > They know all about it, not that any real admissions have been made,
> > > indeed apparently Merc have dropped supply of the 200-225 Optimaxes because of
> > > the failure rate.
> >
> > Wrong. Again.
> >
>
> If so my apologies, but as you know there have been several "reports" that
> they've stopped deliveries of the larger motors with no explanations, but if this
> is not correct or if you know anymore please post the details.
>
>
Mercury Pulls Large, DFI
Outboards from the Market
Mercury Marine has informed some of
its dealers that it will no longer ship
its large, V-6, 2001 model OptiMax
direct fuel injected engines because
of performance problems that are as
yet not understood.
In a fax from John S. Ward, vice
president of Outboard Sales and
Service, the company told dealers,
"We are currently assessing some
performance related problems on the
2001 model year 3.0 liter 200 and
225 horsepower OptiMax engines.
Regrettably we have decided to
discontinue shipment of these
engines for the balance of the 2001
model year."
This is in addition to the recent injector recall (tips came off in
combustion chamber) and the spark plug debacle.
All companies have problems from time to time. Even the Yamaha HPDI had
fouling problems when it was released (tested?) on the public. It
required a computer, ignition system, and spark plug redesign. It now
uses a $10 special plug with dual ground electrodes instead of a
"standard" plug that they advertised.
Bill Grannis
service manual
Tony Thomas
Usually when two engines go down within a close timeframe it is either fuel
or oil related.
Could be water in the gas on the last fillup or one that you had to do on
the water.
Could be cheap oil - maybe that you had to buy on the last outing.
Any number of things but for two engines to go down within a close amount of
time indicates another problem and not the engine design.
Tony Thomas
My boats at http://members.home.net/thomastl1
"Beek" <be...@islc.net> wrote in message
news:9gbmp...@enews3.newsguy.com...
ref
right on thye label that it's for heavy duty applications such
as "high horsepower motors and DFI" systems. So Premium Plus is
NOT an effort by Merc to make a new, improved oil, it's a last
ditch attempt to get their butts out of the fire with a
quick-fix for this Optimax problem. Man, Merc really screwed
up this time.
Ron M.
Beek
of the fuel filters and the oil was clean. It was Havoline 2-cycle oil.
"Tony Thomas" <Thom...@home.com> wrote in message
news:8wIW6.157237$I5.45...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
Tony Thomas
twin 150 optimax engines and then try and save a few dollars a gallon on oil
by using Havoline instead of the Merc oil designed for these engines?
The only engine I ever had go down was due to water in the gas I got on the
river one day (when I had no choice since we were on a 200 mile river
cruise). I have always run the manufacturers oil recommended for my
particular engine and never had a problem. Maybe you can call it cheap
insurance.
--
Tony Thomas
My boats at http://members.home.net/thomastl1
"Beek" <be...@islc.net> wrote in message
news:9gg0b...@enews2.newsguy.com...
K. Smith
> "K. Smith" wrote:
> >
> > hkr...@capuantispam.net wrote:
> >
> > > "K. Smith" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > They know all about it, not that any real admissions have been made,
> > > > indeed apparently Merc have dropped supply of the 200-225 Optimaxes because of
> > > > the failure rate.
> > >
> > > Wrong. Again.
> > >
> >
> > If so my apologies, but as you know there have been several "reports" that
> > they've stopped deliveries of the larger motors with no explanations, but if this
> > is not correct or if you know anymore please post the details.
> >
> >
>
As always I'm indebted to you Bill & thanks.
The issues "not understood"?? hmmmm I guess an admission of sorts although they
only need to ask any of the real engine builders or fuel injection suppliers & they'd
have a crystal clear "understanding" of the pitfalls when you try to run a petrol motor
lean at power. (end gasses self ignite)
As you know I (well "we" here in the colonies actually;-)) have a different spin on
this "fouled" plug thing, that's just a symptom of troubles trying to ignite a too lean
mix, it misses so raw fuel can get directly on the plug then it will no longer fire at
all, so yes it looks like "fouling" stopped it firing & that's sorta true after the
fact, but it never happens in engines that don't run lean (& that's all engines apart
from theses) when you'd expect it to be the opposite. Anyway as always notwithstanding
we rarely agree I appreciate your help & thanks.
Again the natural protection against lean mixture damage is that the engine starts
to miss beforehand but now it seems all 3 have gone to extraordinary lengths to bypass
this natural safety (Ficht multiple firings & special plugs, Opti small "puff" of rich
around the plug & "special" plugs & now on your info even the Yamahas need the special
expensive plugs) so regardless they can get ignition & then they join the lottery of
possible lean burn detonation damage.
I guess I'm on the bludge as usual ;-) but do you have any info on how Bombardier
are coming along with getting the engines flowing again??? technical changes to Ficht
etc ???
Best regards,
K
>
> Bill Grannis
> service manual
Brian
"K. Smith" <Drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3B2B8D...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
The only point here that's unique to 2 stroke engines is (i) possible Ficht
clatter. I think you underestimate the leanness of the mixture used in
modern 4 stroke motors.
Rumor has it that the new big 4 stroke Yamaha or Merc (are they the same?)
will weigh close to 700LB.
K. Smith
Well this will surprise you I know but I'm a cynic, yes yes you find
that hard to believe ;-)
I still say all this "special" oil malarkey is just that, it's just
another Amway scam to get money into the dealers.
Before the end, Ficht did the same thing but it didn't help.
It's just not possible at this stage that they think the failures
are related to lack of lubrication, the pistons scuff the bores, the
ring lands crack, the rings break etc etc all classic detonation damage.
It just sadly cost 8 people their lives including the young pilot
learning again the long term dangers of running engines too lean over
time, they blamed Lycoming at first of course (twins failing together
is not supposed to happen & rarely does) but when they salvaged the
wreck Lycoming & others confirmed that the engines had been run lean
over a long period of time. One of them had suffered serious damage from
lean burn detonation up to 50 flights ahead of the final one so one
engine scuffed pistons rings etc & stopped with the other breaking it's
crankshaft, I presume but don't know when it was called into heavy
service trying to limp back to the coast, but whatever the investigation
found it was all down to "sustained too lean a mixture at power"
detonation damage.
Regards,
K
>
> Ron M.
K. Smith
Snipped a bit is this OK?
   Yes maybe but as you alluded in your original
comment, the cars now run the spark up till it knocks then keep it on the
edge so they still detonate a bit, so it probably pays to remember that
a 2 stroke's piston sees twice as many "fires/hits" as a 4 stroke for any
given running time so the tolerance is lower because the real issue is
that it builds heat then the detonation becomes self sustaining.
Â
I think you underestimate the leanness of the mixture used in
modern 4 stroke motors.
   No I'd be interested if you have any hard evidence
on this, as far as I know the modern efi systems all try to run the correct
amount of fuel to air by weight in all circumstances, again I agree like
the spark timing they run it down to the wire then try & hold it right
on the edge but never deliberately very lean or rich. (the oxygen sensor
once closed loop is constantly saying, "there's no oxygen left in the exhaust
so I'm rich, lean please" an instant later it says "there's oxygen in the
exhaust so I'm lean richen please" & this is on target mixtures written
to the ECU of between 12:1 & 17:1. whereas
   Both Ficht & Opti in their early days were only too happy to boast at full volume of running mixtures as lean as 40:1 which is just not possible in a normal environment, as I said it won't ignite so they both went to extreme lengths to attain ignition only to confirm the long known & understood reality that "if" you do manage to get a lean mix to ignite it will detonate.
   The only question left then is how long will it be before the engine fails from repeatedly being subjected to detonation or even a singe episode where the heat builds enough to make the detonation self sustaining then when the engine powers out of lean burn mode it just gets wrecked on the spot by the detonation.
   The "damage" is cumulative & as you see from repeated horror stories in this group & the fishing boards the engines sometimes fail when they are required to perform for sustain periods, not because they're detonating at high power but because the damage has been done previously just a long hard run brought it into the light. Optimaxes a black for a reason you know;........... "the Prince formerly known as darkness".
lots more snipped
Â
Rumor has it that the new big 4 stroke Yamaha or Merc (are they the same?)
will weigh close to 700LB.
Yes that seems to be a rumour & I hope it's not true because then the US will have no native designed & built OBs 2 or 4 stroke which considering you invented them & changed the world of boating with them is sad.
   As for the weight; well what can I say I don't know
what the new big 4 strokes will weigh but, if your comment is right then
it just confirms how much Merc & I guess Yamaha want to get away from
2 strokes, the warranty claims must be really hurting them, their "stopped
supply because of not understood problems" would also be causing grief
surely.
Â
more snipped
although the
> demise of OMC mostly on account of the Ficht debacle has given me heart &
while I
> totally accept what Harry says about reasons for the non shipment of big
Optis being
> down to "plug" problems & certainly I don't claim any better information,
equally it
   After Bill's posting of the "not understood"
reasons for the Optis stopping deliveries it seems my trust in Harry was
well out of order.
More snipped
Best Regards,
K
del cecchi
"ref" <r...@sullivan.realtime.net> wrote in message
news:9gfnct$44f$1...@sullivan.realtime.net...
I've been running premium plus in my carb'd merc since 98, and I don't
think it was new then.
Paranoia runs deep, into your mind it will creep.....
del cecchi
ref
Two questions about this:
1. It's hard to believe Merc didn't pick this up during
the engine testing.
2. Why is this happening to some people, but not others,
if it's design-caused?
Ron M.
Brian
A few thoughts:
Why would a DFI 2stroke need a leaner mixture than a 4stroke to meet EPA
requirements?
Why would an extremely lean mixture be more likely to detonate than a
stoichiometrically balanced mixture? It seems like the opposite would be
the case. Conventional wisdom is that lean mixtures cause high temperatures
and hot internal parts contribute to detonation, but would all this be true
for an extremely lean mixture?
You have point about heat dissipation. This is a big problem for air cooled
2 strokes. Consider the following points though:
1. Outboards have an unlimited supply of water available for cooling.
2. 2 strokes don't actually produce twice as much power or heat per unit of
displacement as 4 strokes.
3. Given 1 and 2, 2 strokes can actually dissipate heat somewhat better than
4strokes since the head is almost completely surrounded by the water jacket
whereas the head in a 4 stroke is surrounded by valves and intake and
exhaust passages.
4. The head in modern 2 strokes is typically a smooth hemispherical design
whereas the head in 4 strokes is typically an irregular wedge or pup tent
shape required to accommodate the valves and irregularities are reputed to
promote detonation.
I checked the Merc web site, the 135 and 150 Optis are 2.5ltr, the 200 and
225 Optis are 3ltr.
I share concerns about the future of pleasure boating power sources. US
native or otherwise, it doesn't look like there will be anything the can
match the performance of my 150 Evirude or a similar Black Max after 2006.
"K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3B2C1353...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
K. Smith
> <snip>
>
> Two questions about this:
>
> 1. It's hard to believe Merc didn't pick this up during
> the engine testing.
Great question ? Has to be asked & answered so similar mistakes
don't happen again, it applies to both US OB engines builders when
confronted with the EPA regs;
(i) Ficht; I did read somewhere from OMC itself, the TOTAL engine
testing done before the release of Ficht was a bit over 4000 hrs which
is pathetic for a brand new technology, which had been hawked around the
motor Cos as a world beater but none not one had picked up on it, it had
never before been released to the public in any application yet they
bought a majority interest in the Co (Ficht) then put the totally
untried new technology into the demanding marine market place.
(ii) Brunswick; again they seem to have done very little testing &
it's almost the same story a new technology which had been hawked to all
the big motor Cos over a long time yet again none had really taken it
up, lots of spruiking about how great it was but lots of pointers to
trouble. Ford had a test fleet of UK police cars on Orbital & according
to orbital it was a huge success but Ford said very little & it
certainly hasn't been taken up by them, a truly ominous sign I say &
well known before Merc accepted ti for the OBs. I did see some patents
go after the UK police car tests, they were clearly fixes for problems
of their own making & in hindsight pointers to an untried technology not
properly thought through (I'm being a bit unfair here because I am
saying this with hindsight, at the time I didn't take much notice
either, but I'm not some hugely paid director of technology at a big
public Co were I, then I would certainly would have put someone
knowledgeable AND independent onto it)
I guess I have to say that the OB marine industry is built on
deceptive marketing, in house non trained mechanics where the tech
training is as much marketing hype as technical material & I say mostly
bullshit so they get away with charging more than the price of a similar
powered car for their glorified lawn mower engines but as you know the
easiest people to bullshit are the bullshitters & they both seemed to
have just been taken in by not much more than spruiking, it seems
neither even had the technologies properly evaluated by outside people
prior to commitment. (Again hindsight, wonderful isn't it;-))
>
>
> 2. Why is this happening to some people, but not others,
> if it's design-caused?
It's related to the engines getting cumulative damage from being
operated at too much power when in lean burn mode so subject to
detonation. Most engines 2 & 4 stroke experience some detonation from
time to time it's not fatal & indeed I say they are well aware the
engines on lean mixtures detonate. In 98 when the fichts first started
dying I couldn't believe the gaggle of NG OMC dealers who previously had
always warned people (usually with their standard "take it to a trained
OMC dealer" type advice ;-)) not to change the carbs or even the jets on
their OBs because if they set them up to run even just slightly lean at
power the engine would be wrecked, suddenly ran around telling anyone
who would listen how great it was they could run the new engines as lean
as 40:1 without even questioning how or if the "detonation when lean"
had been dealt with.
The other thing that helps make this a bit of a lottery is unlike
car engines where the loads can be accurately predicted & gearing etc
taken into account, OBs go on all sorts of boats, with many different
pitched props & then get all sorts of usage; say a weekend fisherman who
just gets the boat on the plane then high speed cruises to his spots &
back, or the other heavy high speed boat that spends lots of time in no
wake areas or the ski enthusiast who goes from idle to WOT all day
long, the same engine might be fine in one application & not in
another.
My argument has been & remains that these engines must be detonating
when in lean mode, "if" that's correct then it's a question of how long
in any one episode or cumulatively over the life of the engine does it
spend in lean burn mode suffering detonation & does it eventually break
a ring land, scuff a piston or whatever. I say, the fisherman is
probably OK, but the bigger boats with very powerful engines that have
high top speeds so need a prop with lots of pitch are at risk if they
spend lots of time in no wake zones at a speed where they are making
power yet still in that lean burn mode (mostly below 2000)
Thanks for this discussion I enjoyed it, I guess the new 4 stroke
big OBs will be interesting in the extreme, weight, performance, fuel
consumption, reliability & price.
Regards,
K
>
>
> Ron M.
K. Smith
> Snipping is good...
> A few thoughts:
> Why would a DFI 2stroke need a leaner mixture than a 4stroke to meet EPA
> requirements?
(i) The 2 strokes can't just slow to a smooth idle by shutting the throttle
plate(s) in front of the intake (reed) valve like a 4 stroke, it would create
too high a vacuum in the crankcase so combined with the high restriction
underwater exhaust (notwithstanding the bleed holes) the exhaust would tend to
back flow down the transfer ports when the piston uncovers so the idle would be
rough & unstable.
(ii) The way 2 stroke OBs have achieved a smooth slow idle has been to
(a) have the throttle stops designed so even when notionally fully
closed there is still plenty of air going through the engine,
(b) because the extra air has fuel it means the engine would not
idle at all but speed up, so they control the idle speed slow the engine, by
severely retarding the spark timing. (normally a retarded spark timing will
lead to overheating but with an OB having a good supply of cooling water apart
from the piston they can get away with it, whereas the 2 stroke motor mowers
etc just have to live with an iffy idle),
(c) because fuel mixture needs to be within a fairly tight range,
they have lots of fuel going through them at idle, it's often mistakenly said
they're rich at idle but that's not quite true they're as lean as the
adjustment can be made before they stumble (miss) so they're not rish as such,
but there's fuel everywhere because there's so much air going through them.
(d) most of the extra air & fuel doesn't get burnt because the spark
is so retarded so they're particularly dirty (unburned fuel going straight out
the exhaust) at idle & lower speeds.
(iii) The only way the 2 stroke OBs could hope to pass the EPA regs was to
stop the excess fuel getting out the exhaust at idle/slow speed so they just
decided to inject a lesser amount of fuel into the same amount of air (in some
case even more air just to smooth the idle further) this meant that they idle &
run up to the lower mid rev range on a very lean mixture, which detonates.
(iv) The 4 strokes idle by just closing the throttle plate as an auto 4
stroke does so the engine gets less air & the efi gives it the correct amount
of fuel for the particular weight of air going through the engine, the
underwater exhaust back pressure etc doesn't matter because they have an
exhaust stroke to clear the chamber
>
> Why would an extremely lean mixture be more likely to detonate than a
> stoichiometrically balanced mixture? It seems like the opposite would be
> the case. Conventional wisdom is that lean mixtures cause high temperatures
> and hot internal parts contribute to detonation, but would all this be true
> for an extremely lean mixture?
(i) The lean mixture burns very slowly (the droplets are further apart) &
irregularly because despite the spruiking about "stratified" charge etc it's
never uniformly lean so has part which are about right & others that are very
lean.
(ii) fuel usually burns with a flame front at around 16m/sec. (give or take
it varies with heat/pressure but that's about it)
(iii) The combustion chamber needs to be designed so as the flame front
propagates from the spark & the heat/pressure in the chamber rises the flame
front will get to the extremities of the fuel air charge before the chamber's
heat/pressure rises enough that the remaining fuel self ignites (the "end
gasses" detonate)
(iv) Ideally the burn should be finished before he piston leaves TDC so the
max cyl pressure occurs just as the piston starts back down the bore but with
auto ignition of the end gasses the chamber heat/pressure rises very sharply
when the piston is not in a position to react (before or at tdc) so there's a
severe internal shock on the components & the excess heat instead of driving
the piston down, just heats it.
(v) Sustained detonation can cause a hot spot (say a piece of carbon might
begin to glow) so then the detonation is self sustaining even after the engine
goes back to a normal mixture & is doomed.
>
> You have point about heat dissipation. This is a big problem for air cooled
> 2 strokes. Consider the following points though:
> 1. Outboards have an unlimited supply of water available for cooling.
True & no bill but the piston/rings is the problem it doesn't benefit from the
water cooling & is the only part of the engine that is exposed to all the
combustion heat & has no cooling at all. There is oil cooling of the piston in
4 strokes & there might be some cooling by the air getting transferred through
the crankcase, but that heat just gets transferred onto the top of the piston
so doesn't cool at all.
>
> 2. 2 strokes don't actually produce twice as much power or heat per unit of
> displacement as 4 strokes.
No that's also true because most of their cycle is wasted while they try to
drop the pressure in the crankcase enough to overcome the spring force of the
reed valves before air can flow in then the bottom part of the stroke is
totally lost because the transfer & exhaust ports are open spilling pressure in
both directions depending on the revs/power. so their lack of efficiency is not
a saving grace just the opposite, because when the piston is at/near TDC it
still sees exactly the same "fire" as the 4 stroke but at any given speed the
piston sees it twice as often.
>
> 3. Given 1 and 2, 2 strokes can actually dissipate heat somewhat better than
> 4strokes since the head is almost completely surrounded by the water jacket
> whereas the head in a 4 stroke is surrounded by valves and intake and
> exhaust passages.
Most heads are aluminum to dissipate heat without creating hot spots etc
but as above the piston in a 2 stroke is the real issue it gets hot & the heat
can only get into the water jacket by crossing the heat bridge created by the
rings, so the rings get very hot & bake the oil then jam in their lands so
there's blowby so they get hotter so there's more baking & more blowby & more
heat & so on & on & then............;-)
That's one of the reasons that 2 strokes try to have lots of small pistons
rather than fewer bigger, so about 500cc per cyl is the max. As the piston diam
goes up the circum or ring area to transfer heat into the bore/waterjacket goes
up directly (22/7X diam) whereas the area of the piston available/exposed to
the heat of combustion goes up by the square of the radius (22/7X rad. sqd) so
the piston gets hotter quicker than it can dissipate
>
> 4. The head in modern 2 strokes is typically a smooth hemispherical design
> whereas the head in 4 strokes is typically an irregular wedge or pup tent
> shape required to accommodate the valves and irregularities are reputed to
> promote detonation.
Doesn't matter much, the head can be flat in a 4 stroke with a bowl in the
piston (can do that because the piston is oil cooled & only sees fire half as
many times) or the 2 stroke can have a flat top piston (with deflector wall) &
a bowl shaped head (trying to minimise the area of the piston that can get
heated vs the area of the rings to transfer it).
>
> I checked the Merc web site, the 135 and 150 Optis are 2.5ltr, the 200 and
> 225 Optis are 3ltr.
Thanks for that clearly my mistake I stand corrected & apologies.
>
> I share concerns about the future of pleasure boating power sources. US
> native or otherwise, it doesn't look like there will be anything the can
> match the performance of my 150 Evirude or a similar Black Max after 2006.
It's a long time till 2006 (in 95 would anyone have seen the demise of OMC
even though they did have problems they were a big Co) & the 4 strokes are
already established in the sub 100 hp range & doing very well, everybody seems
happy with them, the really big ones are going 4 stroke if the Yamaha & Mercs
engines turn out OK so I can see the middle ground being filled easily by the 4
strokes, but yes they will be heavier I think & probably have a little less mid
range pickup but they'll be reliable, have resale value & use less fuel.
Again thanks for this thread, I wish Del & Marcus could get back together
for just one session so we could get their perspective on how this DFI lean
burn stuff has panned out & what might be going to happen now that Del has
taken the free Delphion site from us ;-) (will the big 4 strokes have variable
valve timing? ideal for OBs)
Best regards,
K
Chris MacClellan
dealer said he got a letter from Mercury to stop selling the larger
optimax's due to them blowing up!!.
Mac
"K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3B2AA47F...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
Beek
OptiMax manual and because I was not aware that Mercury made a specific oil
for that engine. It seems that if a certain oil is required to keep the
engine together, Mercury would certainly let new owners know. By the way, do
you work for Mercury?news:rhPW6.159849$I5.45...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
del cecchi
snip
>
> Again thanks for this thread, I wish Del & Marcus could get back
together
> for just one session so we could get their perspective on how this DFI
lean
> burn stuff has panned out & what might be going to happen now that
Del has
> taken the free Delphion site from us ;-) (will the big 4 strokes have
variable
> valve timing? ideal for OBs)
>
> Best regards,
>
> K
I'm here. I think I still even have free access to the delphion site.
:-)
I think the US patent office also has a site with stuff on line.
Seems to me that OMC went under for a variety of reasons, including poor
management during a cost reduction drive to outsource parts production.
The Ficht problems, whatever they were and however extensive they were,
didn't help.
Makes me glad I bought carb'd engine. In a few years if I should decide
to replace it the merc 115 4 stroke looks nice.
del cecchi
Tony Thomas
I have had Merc and OMC products over the years. I have just always used
the factory oil. Have had friends who used the other oils and had problems.
I had an Optimax 135 2000 model last year that I put probably 150 hours on
and never had a problem with it. But I always used the new Merc TCW 3 red
label oil which is what my dealer recommended. I was talking to my dealer a
few days ago and he said that they were not having any problems w/ the
Optimax engines.
However, they are a big pontoon dealer and don't sell many larger engines.
So their experience may not be statistically accurate.
Forgot to ask about the oil though. Next time I talk to him I will ask and
let you know what he says.
--
Tony Thomas
My boats at http://members.home.net/thomastl1
"Beek" <be...@islc.net> wrote in message
news:9gimh...@enews3.newsguy.com...
d-hlaw
single 2000 200 opti on a 21 Whaler Outrage. I have experienced a few
minor glitches due to an injector that fouled, and a injector
electronic plug clip that fell off. Both were fixed in a short time.
I regularly go long distances with my big boat, 120 miles offshore one
way, and have complete confidence in these motors. I must point out
though......I have always used the Mercury Optimax/DFI specific oil,
period. Why someone would pay top dollar for an outboard and just put
any oil that meets the minimum requirements just baffles me.......put
the right oil in it, get it serviced according to the manufacturers
suggestion, and treat it with TLC and you will get years of use and
enjoyment. Treat it like a lawn mower or your family grocery getter
and you will get what you deserve. Off my soapbox now.
Brian
> Brian wrote:
>
> > Snipping is good...
> > A few thoughts:
> > Why would a DFI 2stroke need a leaner mixture than a 4stroke to meet
EPA
> > requirements?
>
> (i) The 2 strokes can't just slow to a smooth idle by shutting the
throttle
> plate(s) in front of the intake (reed) valve like a 4 stroke, it would
create
> too high a vacuum in the crankcase so combined with the high restriction
> underwater exhaust (notwithstanding the bleed holes) the exhaust would
tend to
> back flow down the transfer ports when the piston uncovers so the idle
would be
> rough & unstable.
Exhaust restriction is certanly more of a problem for 2 strokes than 4
strokes. In general, they just don't breath as well.
>
> (ii) The way 2 stroke OBs have achieved a smooth slow idle has been to
> (a) have the throttle stops designed so even when notionally
fully
> closed there is still plenty of air going through the engine,
Butterflys in 2 strokes I've seen seem to close all the way.
> (b) because the extra air has fuel it means the engine would
not
> idle at all but speed up, so they control the idle speed slow the engine,
by
> severely retarding the spark timing. (normally a retarded spark timing
will
> lead to overheating but with an OB having a good supply of cooling water
apart
> from the piston they can get away with it, whereas the 2 stroke motor
mowers
> etc just have to live with an iffy idle),
Don't they advance and retard the spark in 4 stroke OBs. I know they do in
auto motors and I/Os. Lawn mowers generally have fixed timing, many,
including 4 strokes, don't even have a throttle.
(c) because fuel mixture needs to be within a fairly tight range,
> they have lots of fuel going through them at idle, it's often mistakenly
said
> they're rich at idle but that's not quite true they're as lean as the
> adjustment can be made before they stumble (miss) so they're not rish as
such,
> but there's fuel everywhere because there's so much air going through
them.
> (d) most of the extra air & fuel doesn't get burnt because the
spark
> is so retarded so they're particularly dirty (unburned fuel going straight
out
> the exhaust) at idle & lower speeds.
I thought most of unburned fuel dumped was due to blow threw. This
condition is mostly unique to 2 stroke motors.
only way the 2 stroke OBs could hope to pass the EPA regs was to
> stop the excess fuel getting out the exhaust at idle/slow speed so they
just
> decided to inject a lesser amount of fuel into the same amount of air (in
some
> case even more air just to smooth the idle further) this meant that they
idle &
> run up to the lower mid rev range on a very lean mixture, which detonates.
You may have hit the nail on the head here. I still think you are
underestimating how lean modern auto motors run under similar conditions.
You can actually hear detonation clatter in some autos at idle. Autos
actually cruise at not much more than idle. In auto motors they actually
dump exhaust gas into the intake to allow the motor to run lean and clean
under these conditions. I suspect you have some ideas as to why this
technique wouldn't work on 2 strokes.
>
> (iv) The 4 strokes idle by just closing the throttle plate as an auto 4
> stroke does so the engine gets less air & the efi gives it the correct
amount
> of fuel for the particular weight of air going through the engine, the
> underwater exhaust back pressure etc doesn't matter because they have an
> exhaust stroke to clear the chamber
The computer in modern autos controls fuel, spark timing and exhaust gas
recirculation.
>
>
>
> >
> > Why would an extremely lean mixture be more likely to detonate than a
> > stoichiometrically balanced mixture? It seems like the opposite would
be
> > the case. Conventional wisdom is that lean mixtures cause high
temperatures
> > and hot internal parts contribute to detonation, but would all this be
true
> > for an extremely lean mixture?
>
> (i) The lean mixture burns very slowly (the droplets are further apart)
&
> irregularly because despite the spruiking about "stratified" charge etc
it's
> never uniformly lean so has part which are about right & others that are
very
> lean.
Stratified dosn't mean uniformly lean. It means they selectivly provide a
richer mixture in some areas and leaner in others. I've always had my
doubts about this technology. I guess it worked to some extend in the Honda
CVCC motors of the 70s.
> (ii) fuel usually burns with a flame front at around 16m/sec. (give or
take
> it varies with heat/pressure but that's about it)
>
Yes.
> (iii) The combustion chamber needs to be designed so as the flame front
> propagates from the spark & the heat/pressure in the chamber rises the
flame
> front will get to the extremities of the fuel air charge before the
chamber's
> heat/pressure rises enough that the remaining fuel self ignites (the "end
> gasses" detonate)
>
Yes
> (iv) Ideally the burn should be finished before he piston leaves TDC so
the
> max cyl pressure occurs just as the piston starts back down the bore but
with
> auto ignition of the end gasses the chamber heat/pressure rises very
sharply
> when the piston is not in a position to react (before or at tdc) so
there's a
> severe internal shock on the components & the excess heat instead of
driving
> the piston down, just heats it.
>
Yes
> (v) Sustained detonation can cause a hot spot (say a piece of carbon
might
> begin to glow) so then the detonation is self sustaining even after the
engine
> goes back to a normal mixture & is doomed.
>
It might not require detonation to inititate this problem.
> >
> > You have point about heat dissipation. This is a big problem for air
cooled
> > 2 strokes. Consider the following points though:
> > 1. Outboards have an unlimited supply of water available for cooling.
>
> True & no bill but the piston/rings is the problem it doesn't benefit from
the
> water cooling & is the only part of the engine that is exposed to all the
> combustion heat & has no cooling at all. There is oil cooling of the
piston in
> 4 strokes & there might be some cooling by the air getting transferred
through
> the crankcase, but that heat just gets transferred onto the top of the
piston
> so doesn't cool at all.
I don't think there is a significant amount of oil cooling of the pistons in
auto motors. The technique is used in some motorcycles though.
>
> >
> > 2. 2 strokes don't actually produce twice as much power or heat per unit
of
> > displacement as 4 strokes.
>
> No that's also true because most of their cycle is wasted while they
try to
> drop the pressure in the crankcase enough to overcome the spring force of
the
> reed valves before air can flow in then the bottom part of the stroke is
> totally lost because the transfer & exhaust ports are open spilling
pressure in
> both directions depending on the revs/power. so their lack of efficiency
is not
> a saving grace just the opposite, because when the piston is at/near TDC
it
> still sees exactly the same "fire" as the 4 stroke but at any given speed
the
> piston sees it twice as often.
As I mentioned above, 2 strokes basically just don't breath as well. For
each power stroke there is less air, less fuel and less heat. The fact that
they fire more often allows them to produce competitive power/displacement
and probably makes heat dissipation somewhat more of a problem not twice as
bad though.
High performance 4 strokes seem to face a similar limitation.
>
> >
> > 4. The head in modern 2 strokes is typically a smooth hemispherical
design
> > whereas the head in 4 strokes is typically an irregular wedge or pup
tent
> > shape required to accommodate the valves and irregularities are reputed
to
> > promote detonation.
>
> Doesn't matter much, the head can be flat in a 4 stroke with a bowl in
the
> piston (can do that because the piston is oil cooled & only sees fire half
as
> many times) or the 2 stroke can have a flat top piston (with deflector
wall) &
> a bowl shaped head (trying to minimise the area of the piston that can get
> heated vs the area of the rings to transfer it).
I'm sure you know that modern 2 strokes don't have a "deflector wall". Some
4strokes do have a kind of hollowed out piston but not a clean hemisherical
shape. I'm not aware of any OHV flat heads though.
>
> >
> > I checked the Merc web site, the 135 and 150 Optis are 2.5ltr, the 200
and
> > 225 Optis are 3ltr.
>
> Thanks for that clearly my mistake I stand corrected & apologies.
I really thought they just bolted some Orbital stuff on the old motors.
VVT could be just what's needed for motors in the 50-100HP range. It could
also make something that's already complex, heavy and expensive even worse.
VVT is finding it's way into less expensive cars such as the Toyota Corolla
and Ford Focus so there is hope for this technology. Bombardier seems to
have a lot riding on Fich/Orbital technology. I don't think they have much
in the way or 4 stroke technology inhouse where most of their competitors in
the OB, PWC and snowmobile industries do.
Interested in I/Os?
Chevrolet recently introduced a vehicle call a Trail Blazer. It's powered
by a 270HP 4.2L inline 6. How long do you think they'll keep the 4.3L V6
around? The 4.3 makes a decent boat motor but there are better truck motors
in it's class (I had an Astro van for a while).
K. Smith
> I was looking for a new motor yesterday calling around and one of the Merc
> dealer said he got a letter from Mercury to stop selling the larger
> optimax's due to them blowing up!!.
>
Thanks for that Chris, but I think it needs to be said again I don't think
it's every single large Opti, now even a sizable minority, but more Merc have
the market to themselves in that range why continue to take the risks to their
reputation.
Unlike previous times (like OMC's VRO) now with the internet it's not
possible to stop the unhappy campers saying what they say publicly nor for the
spruiker dealers to get away with their standard "Gee this is unusual these
engines are great" or the "I know a bloke who's engine didn't blow up so they
must be good".
OMC might well go into history as the first big Corp brought down by the
net.
If you do a google search using "Optimax problems" you'll find case after
case of first hand reporting of powerhead failures not every failure gets
posted but equally it's not many compared to the number of engines sold but
enough to say the technology itself is under a cloud. I get a bit pissed when
just like Ficht nobody seems willing to even try & discuss the reasons why this
happens, it seems we're so in awe of big corps we just say it's an act of god.
All a bit scary bananas really.
Regards,
K
K. Smith
> "K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3B2CAD57...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
> snip
> >
> > Again thanks for this thread, I wish Del & Marcus could get back
> together
> > for just one session so we could get their perspective on how this DFI
> lean
> > burn stuff has panned out & what might be going to happen now that
> Del has
> > taken the free Delphion site from us ;-) (will the big 4 strokes have
> variable
> > valve timing? ideal for OBs)
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > K
>
> I'm here.
& that's good obviously, but you 2 were a team & lots of totally
unexpected confronting stuff came out, nobody actually read it mind you
;-), but it was good all the same,
> I think I still even have free access to the delphion site.
> :-)
Go on rub it in have a nice time ;-)
>
> I think the US patent office also has a site with stuff on line.
Yes they do & that's why most of us are on linux so we can deal with
the tiff files but I guess you've notice the uspto has now started to clamp
a bit on "automated" downloads so alas I get scared using my patmailer
program. (don't want to get banned, gee I even behave in rec.boats these
days;-))
Besides I'm sure you've heard but there are other parts of the world we
need to look at & that was the biggy as far as Delphion was concerned for
me.
>
>
> Seems to me that OMC went under for a variety of reasons, including poor
> management during a cost reduction drive to outsource parts production.
> The Ficht problems, whatever they were and however extensive they were,
> didn't help.
>
> Makes me glad I bought carb'd engine. In a few years if I should decide
> to replace it the merc 115 4 stroke looks nice.
Hmmm smug bastard; you knew all about the 2 stroke probs so sat back a
watched ;-)
Best regards,
K
>
>
> del cecchi
hkr...@capuantispam.net
>
> Chris MacClellan wrote:
>
> > I was looking for a new motor yesterday calling around and one of the Merc
> > dealer said he got a letter from Mercury to stop selling the larger
> > optimax's due to them blowing up!!.
> >
>
> Thanks for that Chris, but I think it needs to be said again I don't think
> it's every single large Opti, now even a sizable minority, but more Merc have
> the market to themselves in that range why continue to take the risks to their
> reputation.
What needs to be said is that *you* don't know, and what you have been doing
(again) the last few days here is venting your spleen with your guesses.
--
Harry Krause
------------
The students at Yale came from all different backgrounds and all parts of the
country. Within months, I knew many of them. -GW Bush
K. Smith
> "K. Smith" wrote:
> >
> > Chris MacClellan wrote:
> >
> > > I was looking for a new motor yesterday calling around and one of the Merc
> > > dealer said he got a letter from Mercury to stop selling the larger
> > > optimax's due to them blowing up!!.
> > >
> >
> > Thanks for that Chris, but I think it needs to be said again I don't think
> > it's every single large Opti, now even a sizable minority, but more Merc have
> > the market to themselves in that range why continue to take the risks to their
> > reputation.
>
> What needs to be said is that *you* don't know, and what you have been doing
> (again) the last few days here is venting your spleen with your guesses.
Yeah I guess :-) you're right although even you must start to wonder after the
ficht thing went almost exactly as we said it would.
I does seem despite your somewhat deceptive brand loyalty defenses that at least
Merc have the good sense to stop & have a rethink but most importantly not subject
more consumers to the stress of a potential failure.
It's truly pathetic to still see them saying "my" dealer says use the "special"
oil etc the old it's the owners fault, really !!
Anyway I've said what I say & busy busy; so till next time.
Regards,
K
hkr...@capuantispam.net
>
> hkr...@capuantispam.net wrote:
>
> > "K. Smith" wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris MacClellan wrote:
> > >
> > > > I was looking for a new motor yesterday calling around and one of the Merc
> > > > dealer said he got a letter from Mercury to stop selling the larger
> > > > optimax's due to them blowing up!!.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for that Chris, but I think it needs to be said again I don't think
> > > it's every single large Opti, now even a sizable minority, but more Merc have
> > > the market to themselves in that range why continue to take the risks to their
> > > reputation.
> >
> > What needs to be said is that *you* don't know, and what you have been doing
> > (again) the last few days here is venting your spleen with your guesses.
>
> Yeah I guess :-) you're right although even you must start to wonder after the
> ficht thing went almost exactly as we said it would.
>
> I does seem despite your somewhat deceptive brand loyalty defenses that at least
> Merc have the good sense to stop & have a rethink but most importantly not subject
> more consumers to the stress of a potential failure.
It's not a matter of brand loyalty; it's a matter of annoyance with your
wild-assed guesses.
--
Harry Krause
------------
"But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think
beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up,
the world would be safe."Bush é‚‘ashington, D.C., May 1, 2001
K. Smith
> THanks for your insight. More thoughts though:
>
more snipped?
> > (b) because the extra air has fuel it means the engine would
> not
> > idle at all but speed up, so they control the idle speed slow the engine,
> by
> > severely retarding the spark timing. (normally a retarded spark timing
> will
> > lead to overheating but with an OB having a good supply of cooling water
> apart
> > from the piston they can get away with it, whereas the 2 stroke motor
> mowers
> > etc just have to live with an iffy idle),
>
> Don't they advance and retard the spark in 4 stroke OBs. I know they do in
> auto motors and I/Os. Lawn mowers generally have fixed timing, many,
> including 4 strokes, don't even have a throttle.
Yes absolutely but most spark timing (2 or 4 stroke) which doesn't cause
heat etc is in the range 10 to 50+ deg BTDC the 2 stroke OBs idle as around TDC
& some even actually ATDC. If you put the timing of your car back to TDC
(assuming you upped the idle so it didn't just stop) it would very quickly
overheat even just idling if you operated it in that mode apart from there
being no performance at all again it would get very hot very quickly, as in the
exhaust manifold would glow!
more snipped.
> > (d) most of the extra air & fuel doesn't get burnt because the
> spark
> > is so retarded so they're particularly dirty (unburned fuel going straight
> out
> > the exhaust) at idle & lower speeds.
>
> I thought most of unburned fuel dumped was due to blow threw. This
> condition is mostly unique to 2 stroke motors.
>
Again yes we agree & as you allude there's no fix it seems other than to
reduce the fuel but they can't reduce the air for the reason previously
mentioned. An exhaust port valve/slide does work but it seems is too
problematic for production.
>
> only way the 2 stroke OBs could hope to pass the EPA regs was to
> > stop the excess fuel getting out the exhaust at idle/slow speed so they
> just
> > decided to inject a lesser amount of fuel into the same amount of air (in
> some
> > case even more air just to smooth the idle further) this meant that they
> idle &
> > run up to the lower mid rev range on a very lean mixture, which detonates.
>
> You may have hit the nail on the head here. I still think you are
> underestimating how lean modern auto motors run under similar conditions.
> You can actually hear detonation clatter in some autos at idle. Autos
> actually cruise at not much more than idle. In auto motors they actually
> dump exhaust gas into the intake to allow the motor to run lean and clean
> under these conditions. I suspect you have some ideas as to why this
> technique wouldn't work on 2 strokes.
Well we agree again as I mentioned earlier they run them right on the edge,
but they control "when", at idle no harm really at overrun & very light load
high speed cruise again OK. The cars can have all this written into the ECU so
like the Mitsubishis they can get away with it but not the OBs they rarely see
much in neutral idle & never see the other conditions.
>
> >
> > (iv) The 4 strokes idle by just closing the throttle plate as an auto 4
> > stroke does so the engine gets less air & the efi gives it the correct
> amount
> > of fuel for the particular weight of air going through the engine, the
> > underwater exhaust back pressure etc doesn't matter because they have an
> > exhaust stroke to clear the chamber
>
> The computer in modern autos controls fuel, spark timing and exhaust gas
> recirculation.
Yes but the EGR is to cool the chamber at high speed low load conditions &
reduce NOX but the OB epa regs don't require it besides again the OBs never see
this condition.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Why would an extremely lean mixture be more likely to detonate than a
> > > stoichiometrically balanced mixture? It seems like the opposite would
> be
> > > the case. Conventional wisdom is that lean mixtures cause high
> temperatures
> > > and hot internal parts contribute to detonation, but would all this be
> true
> > > for an extremely lean mixture?
> >
> > (i) The lean mixture burns very slowly (the droplets are further apart)
> &
> > irregularly because despite the spruiking about "stratified" charge etc
> it's
> > never uniformly lean so has part which are about right & others that are
> very
> > lean.
>
> Stratified dosn't mean uniformly lean. It means they selectivly provide a
> richer mixture in some areas and leaner in others. I've always had my
> doubts about this technology. I guess it worked to some extend in the Honda
> CVCC motors of the 70s.
No it didn't in the 70s that's why the Hondas had I think Marcus said 50
hoses?? all trying to sense conditions (no load) when it was safe to give the
engine a lean mixture & even then the Hondas developed "ring problems" which is
code for detonation damage. Honda dropped lean burn as has every other engine
manufacturer that's tried & the latest Honda Sports certainly doesn't use it
yet it complies with the LEV rules & goes like dealer talk off a shovel.
>
> more snipped
>
> > > 1. Outboards have an unlimited supply of water available for cooling.
> >
> > True & no bill but the piston/rings is the problem it doesn't benefit from
> the
> > water cooling & is the only part of the engine that is exposed to all the
> > combustion heat & has no cooling at all. There is oil cooling of the
> piston in
> > 4 strokes & there might be some cooling by the air getting transferred
> through
> > the crankcase, but that heat just gets transferred onto the top of the
> piston
> > so doesn't cool at all.
>
> I don't think there is a significant amount of oil cooling of the pistons in
> auto motors. The technique is used in some motorcycles though.
It's fine just to say you don't think something I guess, but it's better if
you say why??? if you think about what happens to oil in a 4 stroke you'll see
it's much much hotter than the block.
There's heaps of heat transfer done by the oil in a 4 stroke, indeed the
oil can boil (what up around 300C?) if not properly managed. I hope you don't
think that sort of heat is being generated by what? friction? in the bottom of
the engine. No the heat gets into the oil from below the piston then the oil
usually transfers it into the block/waterjacket etc or sometimes particularly
with marine constantly under load engines into a dedicated oil cooler. Some
petrol & nearly all diesels have oil sprayers at the base of the bore
constantly spraying oil under the pistons just to cool the piston.
>
> >
> > >
> > > 2. 2 strokes don't actually produce twice as much power or heat per unit
> of
> > > displacement as 4 strokes.
> >
> > No that's also true because most of their cycle is wasted while they
> try to
> > drop the pressure in the crankcase enough to overcome the spring force of
> the
> > reed valves before air can flow in then the bottom part of the stroke is
> > totally lost because the transfer & exhaust ports are open spilling
> pressure in
> > both directions depending on the revs/power. so their lack of efficiency
> is not
> > a saving grace just the opposite, because when the piston is at/near TDC
> it
> > still sees exactly the same "fire" as the 4 stroke but at any given speed
> the
> > piston sees it twice as often.
>
> As I mentioned above, 2 strokes basically just don't breath as well. For
> each power stroke there is less air, less fuel and less heat. The fact that
> they fire more often allows them to produce competitive power/displacement
> and probably makes heat dissipation somewhat more of a problem not twice as
> bad though.
OK seeing you concede the twice as many burns thing I'll see that I guess,
but then take the oil cooling from under the piston & ???
more snipped
> > That's one of the reasons that 2 strokes try to have lots of small
> pistons
> > rather than fewer bigger, so about 500cc per cyl is the max. As the piston
> diam
> > goes up the circum or ring area to transfer heat into the bore/waterjacket
> goes
> > up directly (22/7X diam) whereas the area of the piston available/exposed
> to
> > the heat of combustion goes up by the square of the radius (22/7X rad.
> sqd) so
> > the piston gets hotter quicker than it can dissipate
>
> High performance 4 strokes seem to face a similar limitation.
Granted
> snipped
>
> > Doesn't matter much, the head can be flat in a 4 stroke with a bowl in
> the
> > piston (can do that because the piston is oil cooled & only sees fire half
> as
> > many times) or the 2 stroke can have a flat top piston (with deflector
> wall) &
> > a bowl shaped head (trying to minimise the area of the piston that can get
> > heated vs the area of the rings to transfer it).
>
> I'm sure you know that modern 2 strokes don't have a "deflector wall". Some
> 4strokes do have a kind of hollowed out piston but not a clean hemisherical
> shape. I'm not aware of any OHV flat heads though.
Whether loop charged or no the point I was making is that you want to make an
issue of the 4 strokes for having the valves/ports in the way on an aluminium
water cooled head but don't want to see the totally uncooled piston as an issue
in the 2 stroke.
Lots of 4 strokes have the chamber cast into the piston others don't they
need to shape/dimension it so the flame front can get to the end of the charge
before the heat/pressure rises such that it self ignites.
>
> >
> > >
> > > I checked the Merc web site, the 135 and 150 Optis are 2.5ltr, the 200
> and
> > > 225 Optis are 3ltr.
> >
> > Thanks for that clearly my mistake I stand corrected & apologies.
> I really thought they just bolted some Orbital stuff on the old motors.
>
snipped
> >
> >
> > Again thanks for this thread, I wish Del & Marcus could get back
> together
> > for just one session so we could get their perspective on how this DFI
> lean
> > burn stuff has panned out & what might be going to happen now that Del
> has
> > taken the free Delphion site from us ;-) (will the big 4 strokes have
> variable
> > valve timing? ideal for OBs)
> VVT could be just what's needed for motors in the 50-100HP range. It could
> also make something that's already complex, heavy and expensive even worse.
> VVT is finding it's way into less expensive cars such as the Toyota Corolla
> and Ford Focus so there is hope for this technology.
Lots of production engines big & small are using variable valve timing &
significantly the high performance low emission ones. ( 4 ltr Fords have it)
> Bombardier seems to
> have a lot riding on Fich/Orbital technology. I don't think they have much
> in the way or 4 stroke technology inhouse where most of their competitors in
> the OB, PWC and snowmobile industries do.
I guess it's tricky to speculate but I say they are being very cautious
they got burnt (little play on words there) with Ficht once before, they must
be seeing the downside of Orbital by now so maybe they are actually dealing
with the issues before letting them out to the public, refreshing. As for
in-house they own the aero engines (Rotax) used in most ultralights & they have
had to make some of them into 4 strokes to survive so hopefully they will do
likewise with the OBs.
>
>
> Interested in I/Os?
> Chevrolet recently introduced a vehicle call a Trail Blazer. It's powered
> by a 270HP 4.2L inline 6. How long do you think they'll keep the 4.3L V6
> around? The 4.3 makes a decent boat motor but there are better truck motors
> in it's class (I had an Astro van for a while).
That 4. something ltr Ford I mentioned is now OHC etc but the basic inline
6 it's based on I think goes back to at least the 60s, if they make power &
money why not?
Best Regards,
K
del cecchi
> del cecchi wrote:
>
>
> > I think I still even have free access to the delphion site.
> > :-)
>
> Go on rub it in have a nice time ;-)
>
> >
> > I think the US patent office also has a site with stuff on line.
>
> Yes they do & that's why most of us are on linux so we can deal
with
> the tiff files but I guess you've notice the uspto has now started to
clamp
> a bit on "automated" downloads so alas I get scared using my patmailer
> program. (don't want to get banned, gee I even behave in rec.boats
these
> days;-))
>
> Besides I'm sure you've heard but there are other parts of the
world we
> need to look at & that was the biggy as far as Delphion was concerned
for
> me.
Haven't noticed. What is the problem? robo-downloading everything in
sight?
>
> >
> >
> > Seems to me that OMC went under for a variety of reasons, including
poor
> > management during a cost reduction drive to outsource parts
production.
> > The Ficht problems, whatever they were and however extensive they
were,
> > didn't help.
> >
> > Makes me glad I bought carb'd engine. In a few years if I should
decide
> > to replace it the merc 115 4 stroke looks nice.
>
> Hmmm smug bastard; you knew all about the 2 stroke probs so sat
back a
> watched ;-)
Nah, but I have seen enough new technology introductions to want to
watch a few years first. So got a nice 115 with carbs. Run 92 octane
Minnesota off road boat gas (no alcohol). And Merc Premium Plus.
>
> Best regards,
>
> K
>
> >
del cecchi
PS. could you guys snip a little? really hard to find the wheat among
the chaff.
>
K. Smith
> "K. Smith" wrote:
> >
> > hkr...@capuantispam.net wrote:
> >
> > > "K. Smith" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chris MacClellan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I was looking for a new motor yesterday calling around and one of the Merc
> > > > > dealer said he got a letter from Mercury to stop selling the larger
> > > > > optimax's due to them blowing up!!.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for that Chris, but I think it needs to be said again I don't think
> > > > it's every single large Opti, now even a sizable minority, but more Merc have
> > > > the market to themselves in that range why continue to take the risks to their
> > > > reputation.
> > >
> > > What needs to be said is that *you* don't know, and what you have been doing
> > > (again) the last few days here is venting your spleen with your guesses.
> >
> > Yeah I guess :-) you're right although even you must start to wonder after the
> > ficht thing went almost exactly as we said it would.
> >
> > I does seem despite your somewhat deceptive brand loyalty defenses that at least
> > Merc have the good sense to stop & have a rethink but most importantly not subject
> > more consumers to the stress of a potential failure.
>
> It's not a matter of brand loyalty; it's a matter of annoyance with your
> wild-assed guesses.
Gee arsey certainly but certainly not too wild where have all the Ficht fighters gone
??? along with their failed engines I guess ;-) Certainly glad I didn't yield to your
bashing & be quiet about them not likely to run away on the Optis when I'm on a roll here
with this "lean at power" stuff.
Sorry that I annoy but I can see your point I guess ;-) I'm chuffed that you think I
care if I annoy you or no, so to return the compliment I should advise you that your
endless pursuit of Bayliner posts on occasions can be annoying so I guess ;-) if you
cease & desist I'll consider doing the same; fair enough???
A bit more of your censorship Harry??
Oops before I go I have a bone to pick with you, you deliberately misled me over the
big Optis stopping delivery, it seems from the other posts there's much more to it than
"plugs" (you are really gullible sometimes Harry just keep handing that money over to the
smiling dealers).
best regards,
K
>
> --
> Harry Krause
> ------------
>
> "But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think
> beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up,
> the world would be safe."Bush -Washington, D.C., May 1, 2001
hkr...@capuantispam.net
Merc issued a very specific announcement regarding the spark plug problem.
Sorry you missed it.
And my comments about Bayliners are based upon specific observation. Your
comments about Optis are based upon...nothing.
--
Harry Krause
------------
I think we agree, the past is over. -GW Bush
Jakdawak
bringing her in again for the port engine, what I believe is another blown
piston. I'll find out in the next couple of days. This is the 2nd powerhead on
this engine. All run with Merc PP oil. For what it's worth, my slip mate has a
26 Regulator w/t Yamaha's HPDI and he's had problems too. My other buddy has
his w/t/ Suzuki EFI's and he never had a single prob. They are coming out with
their own Optimax version soon. Apparently they are one of the only companies
that has products completed, but will not release them until they are pretty
sure the kinks are out. Dam no fishing for another week! Well there's always
bass fishing.
hkr...@capuantispam.net
Jad:
It would be helpful to know precisely what the problem is, beside the
"broken-ness" of the powerheads.
Can you get a real report from the mechanics who fix you up and then post it?
--
Harry Krause
------------
This is what I'm good at. I like meeting people, my fellow citizens, I like
interfacing with them. -GW Bush
Beek
factory-recommended "upgrades"). I wish you continued good luck with your
OptiMax's. When you go offshore you would be wise to go with a buddy boat.
"d-hlaw" <bret...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3b2d1e7e...@news.mindspring.com...
JeffC
I'm sure you could just lay around the house and make $10,000 a day...
--
I've spoofed my email in an attempt to reduce spam.
Please remove the "carrot" when replying via email. Thanks!
K. Smith
Again!!! seriously what could be repeatedly breaking pistons??? Harry still
thinks it's the fairies but almost certainly it can only be by having them
subjected to sustained detonation. (making power when lean)
De-prop them a bit, either power straight through the lean burn zone or back
right off.
I'm assuming you're the bloke who posted a yr or so ago about being towed back
from somewhere called "treasure cay" sorry to be nosey but my blokes wanted to
know what & what powered the boat that towed your fairly big boat 125 NM in open
water in under 4 hrs??
Regards,
K
node
snip
>(i) the 135 HP Optis are just a very detuned 150 HP so they are essentially a 3
>ltr engine putting out a max of 135 HP which is very very lazy (45HP/ltr most 4
>stroke car engines are up over the 60HP/ltr range),
Neat stuff in this thread, but I thought I'd comment on the above.
a) The Optimax 135 (and 150) is based on a Merc 2.5 liter engine with the Orbital
injection paraphernalia bolted on. 3.0 liters is for the 200+ hp Optimaxes. This
would modify the hp/liter figures given above.
b) It seems a tad unfair to compare outboards to car engines. Much better I think
to compare marine engines to marine engines, better still outboard to outboard.
That said, 4 stroke outboards are doing pretty well in the hp/liter department.
--
--
node.
Tony Thomas
marina and use the same fuel?
Just wandering since it is not clear.
--
Tony Thomas
My boats at http://members.home.net/thomastl1
"Jakdawak" <jakd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618080054...@ng-mh1.aol.com...
K. Smith
Yes Brian correctly pinged me on that also, again sorry & it's a no bill. I get a bit
carried away when the cannon balls start to carry the rigging away ;-)
Regards,
K
>
> --
> --
> node.
Jakdawak
"broken-ness" of the powerheads.
Can you get a real report from the mechanics who fix you up and then post it?
Harry, on the first powerhead the head of the injector broke off and scored and
destroyed the piston. I will be bringing the boat in tommorow hopefully, and
will give you details on the second powerhead when they determine the exact
cause. I also have had temp sensor go out. When the temp sensor went out, it
tells the cpu that the engine is getting too hot, it then automatically reduces
the power, I could only get 1000 rpms, although the engine wasn't really
getting hot at all. Of course we tried to bypass the sensor, but technology
caught up with us, and the cpu senses that the sensor is not there ans still
would not give us power. I also had the injectors replaced on both engines. I
also had smart gauge problems with reading oil levels and gas readings. I also
had a problem with the reserve oil tank magnetic sensor took a ump and the dam
smart gauges would sound an alarm every 5 minutes. Now that was annoying. Whats
a fisherman to do?? LOL Jak
Tony Thomas
uses Mobil fuel (boat is trailered) from a different location.
Now is that coincidence or what.
4 DFI engines from the same marina blow up.
2 EFI engines running on different fuel still good.
I have always used 93 octane fuel in my outboards. I know, it is not
necessary you will say. But amazingly I have never had a problem. And my
optimax ran great.
You must remember your dealing w/ aluminum pistons that don't hold up to
predetination like car steel pistons do.
Curious to see if most that are not having problems are using factory oil
and good known 89 or 93 fuel. Most that are having a problem are using
aftermarket oil and 86 octane or marina fuel that may be questionable.
Just a question for the group.
Tony Thomas
My boats at http://members.home.net/thomastl1
"Jakdawak" <jakd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618080054...@ng-mh1.aol.com...
Jakdawak
Wish I could, but of course that would leave no time for fishing. Trading is a
full time game. Jealousy will get you nowhere.
Jakdawak
from somewhere called "treasure cay" sorry to be nosey but my blokes wanted to
know what & what powered the boat that towed your fairly big boat 125 NM in
open
water in under 4 hrs??
No not me, also I wanted to let all know that I use only 89 or 93 good name
brand gas and Merc pp oil.
Harry Krause
Thanks...bad as your problems are, they don't appear to be related to "too
lean running," as certain naysayers have been predicting.
Scott J. McFadden
>I have always used 93 octane fuel in my outboards. I know, it is not
>necessary you will say. But amazingly I have never had a problem. And my
>optimax ran great.
>You must remember your dealing w/ aluminum pistons that don't hold up to
>predetination like car steel pistons do.
Ditto on both counts for me. (w/a yammy and a jonnyrude)
But, my boats are trailered and it is not a problem to do so.
However, I could not tell you of a Marina where I have seen 93 octane fuel
available.
--
SJM
K. Smith
Thanks for at least saying something in the debate Harry, probably the temp
sensor troubles etc. I'd "probably" agree with you but the broken "injector"
tips well I say that's a consistent symptom of detonation damage?????
Can I submit the following in good faith I know you get well pissed with me
for criticism of "your" engines & think I'm a total idiot & you could well be
right;-) but equally given the anxiety these failed engines cause people the
total absence or any rational explanation from anyone else (I don't consider
the dealer brand oil use as rational;-)) & my priors on the Ficht (if you'd
actually entered the Marcus, Del debate instead of just throwing rocks, I
honestly believe you would have seen the OMC debacle coming as we certainly
did.). I accept we might have had some dumb luck indeed I freely admit same as
I'm sure Del does & know sensible Marcus would, but equally for a bunch of
people in a NG with no real backup or resources & having to duck constant rock
throwing from the gallery we did OK, so at least try to join this one or if not
let it run it's course without constant name calling just ignore any related
posts or better put me in your kill file I know you don't like them as I don't
but even just temporarily. I'm not into censorship in any shape or form so I'd
prefer you said useful stuff like yu have above.
So bouncing ball time;-)
(i) Both Ficht & Merc have admitted to making piston/ring modifications
(stronger) & plugs falling to pieces & in Mercs case the recall injector tips
thing.
(ii) This injector tip falling off has been a real issue with the Mercs &
is certainly at least circumstantial evidence in support of my case.
(iii) When the engine is subjected to sustained detonation & the heat builds
up mainly in the piston, it then can become self sustaining, that's;
(a) even after the engine has changed over from lean mode so now has a
normal mix & is well into power,
(b) either a hot spot (glowing carbon say) or the piston is just so hot
the charge self ignites regardless.
(c) the detonation leaves lots of heat in the piston so it becomes worse
& worse,
(d) if it were a single cyl engine you'd know because the power would
drop but in a big multi cyl engine if this is in one maybe two cyls there will
be no "symptoms" you won't know you've advanced the throttle a tiny bit more to
maintain you "usual" revs so the detonating cyl or cyls just get hotter &
hotter till..............
(iii) Till what ?? well that's also well known & understood mainly in the
piston aircraft field & that's probably because apart from the racers who also
know lots about the perils of lean at power, they're about the only other
engines that can actually be allowed to run lean at power (the pilots are
trained not to & indeed the engines miss & stumble long before they do any real
damage but because humans are involved they persist &......) when they are
subjected to sustained lean mixtures at power the list of potential damage the
investigators look for reads;
(a) Crank connecting rod; the impact shock of the charge literally
exploding when the piston is either still coming up or is still at TDC is so
sudden that it can bend/deform the connecting rod or with the momentum of a big
prop directly on it, break the crankshaft. One of the engines in the 8 people
recently died story I mentioned had a broken/cracked crankshaft for some time
before the crash & it was determined that the cause was not a design fault, a
fault in the metallurgy, bearings lubrication etc. etc. but sustained impact
shock from operating at power when lean.
(b) Pistons & rings; again the impact shock is like hitting the piston
with a big hammer, but they get an extra problem the heat of the detonation is
trapped, instead of the piston retreating down the bore just as the cyl
pressure peaks which means the heat drops away, it gets & stays hotter so the
whole chamber gets much hotter than designed, the "extra" heat can mostly get
away through the head but not the piston it has little/no margin so gets hotter
& hotter. So the pistons get bigger & scuff the bore they break chips out of
the ring lands, they melt out of shape particularly in way of the exhaust valve
or (port), the rings crack, then try to get out of their grooves & destroy the
bore etc. in other words all the stuff you'd expect to see if the engine were
severely overheated & the piston was being bashed with a hammer at the same
time, except the engine hasn't been generally overheated no discolouration of
other bits, melted add-ons, paint lifting off none of that, it's as if just the
piston was in another engine/world.
(c) Cyl. head damage; the head can crack like the piston from the
impacts & the extra heat trying to escape into the water jacket or the fins,
the head bore connection can fail, again the cyl pressure is way above what was
designed (usually not much more than 4 X static) & not only that it arrives
instantly so if the engine has a head gasket it can blow or in the aero engines
they thread & screw the head onto the barrels so the fine threads can show
signs of stretching (some indication of the extreme stuff happening when a big
engine is detonating under power)
(d) Valve & seat damage; STICK WITH IT THIS IS MY PUNCH LINE HARRY!! in
the 4 strokes the valves like the piston & head are also subjected to this well
over design abuse, so the extra heat can crack valve & seat, the extra heat &
sudden extreme pressure can make any slight leak in a hot exhaust valve quickly
develop into a gaping burnt hole, the combination of heat/pressure can actually
"mushroom" the valves; that's big valves start to get deformed & get pushed
into the port so the valve head looks slightly concave shaped instead of say
flat (again some insight into the environment), of course when this happens the
valve train clearance is gone so then the valve starts to leak & quickly burns
a hole.
The "injectors" they talk of in the Optimaxes are the big combined air/fuel
injector in the cyl head, it's essentially a small electronically operated
inlet valve it even looks like an inlet valve with a port & a mushroom shaped
head., so suddenly they start having "problems" they've already beefed up the
piston strength (I say to try & withstand the detonation damage) so what will
give next, it seems the inlet valve. Not that unexpected really & the way they
fail is more circumstantial evidence, they don't start to leak because the seat
or valve are worn, they don't electronically stop opening.
They let the fuel/air mix into the chamber at or near TDC but they break!!
the valve tip breaks off!! this is the sort of thing consistent with it being
slammed shut way too hard by what??? detonation??? Like the Fichts once out of
lean mode the injection begins very early in the timing cycle so having one
open when the piston is still rising & there's a detonation is not hard to see
at all.
The big Fichts started to spit the whole injector out of the head
(Bombardier recall??) again a sympton of the real problem, the injector to head
union failure was not the problem just part of the symptom. (I'm confident
someone at Bombardier will put an end to this stuff)
I'm sure Merc'll overcome the lost injector tip trouble but what's next?
it's a design that acknowledges there will be some detonation at lower power as
do some other designs (the Mitsubishi DFIs) but unlike the auto engines they
can't manage the "lean but only when" parameter so depending on the boat, prop
or usage they're at risk.
Never as bad as the Ficht design I accept but still enough for me to have
my very long say & thanks for letting me ;-)
I do miss Marcus.
-rick-
>I accept we might have had some dumb luck indeed I freely admit same as
>I'm sure Del does & know sensible Marcus would, but equally for a bunch of
>people in a NG with no real backup or resources & having to duck constant rock
>throwing from the gallery we did OK, so at least try to join this one or if not
>let it run it's course without constant name calling just ignore any related
>posts or better put me in your kill file I know you don't like them as I don't
>but even just temporarily.
That was quite a sentence. ;)
I'm not into censorship in any shape or form so I'd
>prefer you said useful stuff like yu have above.
I for one am appreciative of your analysis and comments. They stand
or fall on their merits and I wouldn't worry about potshots. When
there are substantive objections they too will add to our collective
knowledge. Reality wins... BTW, I miss Marcus' comments also.
-rick-
del cecchi
snip
"If your engine is in the update group
Mercury has solved the problem and has kits for certain engines... if
your engine is in the recalled group you will recieve a letter from
Mercury about it... the problems they were having is cylinders running
too rich and fouling out plugs.... the fix is a new ECU... another issue
they had was a screen on the fuel presure regulator, this is corrected
in the update kit with a new port fuel rail...."
and
"as 6/16, there was a campaign on certain 2001 optimaxes to replace EMM
and fuel rail with regulators in it, and to replace thermostats with
units that were pretested.( supplier problem with thermostats caused
engine production to be stopped at one point) ....I did learn that there
should be NO fuel filter/ water separator installed in boat(there is one
on engine) as this can affect operation. Many boat companies are
incorrectly installing these filters at the factory. Only regular gas
should be used and the engine should be propped close to the redline.
Break-in on Optimax powerheads is absolutley critical and i think Merc
could put better instructions in the owners manual. the first 10-15
hours are very critcal. "
Sorry Karen, no scandal.
del
K. Smith
del cecchi wrote:
No & there wasn't with Ficht either. Gee Del are you still listening to
what these dealers say I do worry at times.
Just a comment if I may ;-) Rich!!!! they've got to be kidding on the
one hand they say the engines save 80% of fuel BECAUSE they are lean; then
say well yes the plugs are fouling because they're rich, come on???? be a
bit skeptical what are they really likely to say?
"Sorry folks, these engines are blowing up & we don't want to tell you
the design is defective, so we'll go back to the 50s & tell you it's the
spark plugs or you should have used our twice the price dealer oil or wait
for it; bad fuel" a joke.
People used to run OBs on by today's standards questionable, fuel at
very rich mixtures, full of 25:1 engine oil & normal plugs & there was
never the fouling seen on these so called lean burn, claimed 400:1
"special" dealer only TCW3 & plugs that cost at least twice if not 3 times
the normal price & then they say if you get 100 hrs out of them that's
"normal" & you're lucky, that's 100 hrs from the powerhead more likely.
K
>
>
> del
K. Smith
-rick- wrote:
"K. Smith"Â wrote:>I accept we might have had some dumb luck indeed I freely admit same as
>I'm sure Del does & know sensible Marcus would, but equally for a bunch of
>people in a NG with no real backup or resources & having to duck constant rock
>throwing from the gallery we did OK, so at least try to join this one or if not
>let it run it's course without constant name calling just ignore any related
>posts or better put me in your kill file I know you don't like them as I don't
>but even just temporarily.That was quite a sentence. ;)
K
Bruce C. Patterson
"Tony Thomas" <Thom...@home.com> wrote in message
news:VozX6.168761$I5.48...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
Harry Krause
>
>
> No & there wasn't with Ficht either. Gee Del are you still listening
to
> what these dealers say I do worry at times.
And just how many OptiMax engines have you taken apart?
And just how many OptiMax training classes have you attended?
And just how many OptiMax engines have you repaired?
And just how much destructive testing of OptiMax engines have you performed?
And, finally, just how many OptiMax engines have you seen?
--
Harry Krause
------------
The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to
interpret law. -GW Bush
del cecchi
>
> del cecchi wrote:
>
snip
Now Karen, there you go again. Reading the Bass Board there haven't
been that many reports of blown Optimaxes. A year ago there was some
complaining about the oil consumption, but no epidemic of blown motors.
Is there anyplace that keeps track that has real numbers? Or are you
just pulling them out of your ... nose? You were posting that the
stop-ship on the big Opti's was because of an epidemic of blown power
heads, and went off into your detonation sermon.
There are a lot of reasons why there would be a stop ship. For example
do you know the fine for shipping non-compliant motors? Or motors that
have some significant difference from the ones that were tested? Maybe
we ought to send some of our american bureacrats to Oz. :-)
>
> Just a comment if I may ;-) Rich!!!! they've got to be kidding on
the
> one hand they say the engines save 80% of fuel BECAUSE they are lean;
then
> say well yes the plugs are fouling because they're rich, come on????
be a
> bit skeptical what are they really likely to say?
designed to run lean at low speed. maybe a bad idea or not, but that is
what the EPA wants. Screw up the code in the computer, oops fouls
plugs. Maybe they were trying to fix some sort of break in problem and
bingo. Likewise it is possible to get a batch of bad parts.
Ever hear about the bad spindle bearings in IBM Mainframe disk drives in
the 80's? One would think that bearings would be no big deal, eh?
>
> "Sorry folks, these engines are blowing up & we don't want to tell
you
> the design is defective, so we'll go back to the 50s & tell you it's
the
> spark plugs or you should have used our twice the price dealer oil or
wait
> for it; bad fuel" a joke.
>
> People used to run OBs on by today's standards questionable, fuel
at
> very rich mixtures, full of 25:1 engine oil & normal plugs & there was
> never the fouling seen on these so called lean burn, claimed 400:1
> "special" dealer only TCW3 & plugs that cost at least twice if not 3
times
> the normal price & then they say if you get 100 hrs out of them that's
> "normal" & you're lucky, that's 100 hrs from the powerhead more
likely.
And a big motor in those days was a 20 hp. The gas didn't have alcohol
in it either. Better gas than you get today, fer sure. At least in the
US. You have all that clean air oxygenated rots in 3 weeks gas in Oz?
>
> K
>
> >
> >
> > del
>
>
>
K. Smith
Harry Krause wrote:
> "K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3B31AC99...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
> >
> >
> > No & there wasn't with Ficht either. Gee Del are you still listening
> to
> > what these dealers say I do worry at times.
>
> And just how many OptiMax engines have you taken apart?
None
>
> And just how many OptiMax training classes have you attended?
None
>
> And just how many OptiMax engines have you repaired?
None
>
> And just how much destructive testing of OptiMax engines have you performed?
None (thankfully & not like many in this & many other groups, I concede)
>
>
> And, finally, just how many OptiMax engines have you seen?
Many
>
Happy now???? so what?? I admit I'm alone on this Harry if it's a vote
thing I loose outright no bill. But given the company I'm glad to stand alone.
Now run along & do your handstands & I know you won't read what I say below
indeed I don't think you have the wherewith all to even try to understand this
stuff & that's why you constantly try to close any discussion that isn't just
snippy one liners. So don't read it but I do need to put it on the record for
the future. It's poorly written, badly spelt, not proof read & if you could
understand the issues you would probably do a good editing job on it
but................
(i) I say the dealer mechanics are not real mechanics let alone engineers
they have in-house training from the suppliers from day one, so it's mainly rah
rah marketing stuff about this new "improvement" or that.
Getting dirty & pulling broken engines to bits is fine & I make no
criticism of those that do that, but equally as we've seen here time & again
that gives them absolutely no insight into how the engines actually work. Sure
they can see the piston go up & down the valves open or uncover & get a very
basic idea of it all but even before the electronics they could get no idea
about the things like;
(a) the spark timing rational, sure they can tell you which screw to
turn to adjust it & what the max should read on a timing light but have no clue
as to it's marriage with the changeover from the idle jets to the main jet,
(b) As even you have seen in this NG they didn't even understand the
design rational behind obtaining a slow smooth idle, but they certainly thought
they did enough to join you in calling me some awful things, but in the end the
facts came out & it took a mate of Dave's to confirm what I was saying was
correct before it was accepted, again the dealer mechanics have the lightest of
understandings of how these engines work,
(c) None of them could even begin to talk about the shape/dimensions of
the combustion chambers related the inevitable design compromises that are
struck in favour of an answer that allows the flame front to get to the end of
the charge before self ignition at a certain rev /power range; given the
calculated chamber pressure/heat/flame front speed combination.
(d) The dealer mechanics are mainly just spruikers for their brand &
know a few things about pulling them to bits, they also like you, tend to be
spammers of their brands in the NGs or Boards but it would be nice if they knew
what they were talking about rather than parroting the market spruik they've
been fed at "tech" school.
(ii) Try to look at the facts the fichts were a disaster & you defended them
over & over so people still bought them, the bigger Optis are going the same
way now try to just look at the basic evidence/facts, I've already conceded
it's circumstantial but if the dealers can't find out the truth how do you
expect me to? but regardless try to consider this in a rational manner if you
do maybe like me, you'll see it's compelling;
(iii) Both Ficht & Opti were launched in a blase making exactly the same
claims related to there ability to run on lean mixtures, they both made absurd
fuel saving claims which were not only false but a clear indication that the
marketing people had seized control of the tech department & these mechanics
you put so much trust in just got led along.
(iv) Notwithstanding exactly the same extravagant claims from both Ficht &
Opti they were totally different designs in achieving the lean burn (Fichts
used their own impact injector, multiple firing of a special plug & 1 into 6
lubrication, Opti uses an air pump to blow a puff of premixed air/fuel around a
special single fire plug & 7 into 7 lubrication) so;
(v) Say just the Fichts gave trouble with scuffed/broken pistons, cracked
ring lands/rings, fouled/damaged plugs, injectors suffering physical damage,
the injectors trying to get out of the cyl heads (by the way that method of
injector to head fastening has been successful in some diesel engines for many
yrs so what's happening that it can't hold injectors in a poxy petrol aluminium
2 stroke), then clearly given the absence of any real explanation from the
suppliers, a case could/should be mounted for the real reasons ;
(a) That's what Del, Marcus & a few others did in late 98, very early 99
& the results were that there was not enough atomisation because of low
injection pressure (a problem it seems the Optis overcame by the premixing in
the 2nd inlet manifold before "injection"), the engines were detonating because
of the lean mixture & the "impact" pulse of pressure did not have enough
duration (again a problem not apparent in the Optis). Despite the vitriol from
the NG masters like you, Dave, that idiot dealer from Norway etc etc our
findings of fact were not absolutely confirmed until late 99 when OMC
"announced" a doubling of the injection pressure & an exhaust pressure sensor
to try & sense when the engine was lean at power so subject to detonation.
(b) I distinctly remember warning Bill who suddenly admitted "there were
problems but they're all fixed now" that it wouldn't work & why because even if
they could sense the detonation they couldn't do anythng about it (retard spark
= slow engine, richen mix = fail epa)
(c) Ficht brought OMC down, 7000 innocents lost work, yes you can argue
there were other problems at OMC & I agree but the "final" straw was definitely
Ficht & the looming coast guard recall. (still related to detonation I say by
the way;-))
(vi) BUT it's not just the Fichts that gave trouble as the OMC dealers were
only too happy to repeatedly tell you in this NG from day one, the Optis have
been loosing power heads also & guess what???? the symptoms are all but
identical to the Ficht failures, scuffed/broken pistons, cracked ring
lands/rings, fouled/damaged plugs, injectors suffering physical damage, the
injectors trying to get out of the cyl heads,
(vii) Surely even you Harry must raise an eyebrow??? the fuel delivery &
ignition & even the lubrication systems in these 2 strokes could not be more
different, they are both new & "unique" in that neither is really used by any
other big engine builders in the world despite them being hawked/tested around
for years, yet BOTH engines suffer EXACTLY the same failure modes.????? The
ONLY common denominator is the lean burn at low revs. (see (iv) above)
(viii) BOTH have introduced new piston designs, (remember Ficht stopped
production because of a "bad" batch of pistons??? come on Harry; they were
trying to stop them falling to pieces when repeatedly subjected to detonation)
& Optis have claimed "new" pistons; coincidence??? both manufacturers have been
building 2 stroke OBs for many years & never had "piston" failures again the
ONLY common denominator is the lean burn at power.
(ix) I don't expect to change you mind but I do wish just one person would
come back with more than personal abuse for even putting my case, I've never
got one proper critical review since Marcus went. If it's such a preposterous
position why doesn't just one dealer tech try to deal with it???? I can't
"prove" any of it I totally accept, just as I can't "prove" smoking "causes"
lung or other cancer.
At least I'm trying to give a rational explanation to those poor sods who
have paid premium prices for their engines only to be fed bullshit by the
dealers after failure, they know it's bullshit but can't say much because well
gee, they are bad people because all they did was use the TCW3 oil recommended
by the supplier & not seek out the "special" secret twice the price dealer
blend.
Anyway thanks for the response as always.
Regards,
K
K. Smith
Well a while back I just kept posting for Harry, literally dozens &
dozens but if you're now saying there's no problems & you rely upon dealers
in any manner go for it fine, they'll hang you out to dry just like the
Ficht dealers did.
>
>
> Is there anyplace that keeps track that has real numbers? Or are you
> just pulling them out of your ... nose? You were posting that the
> stop-ship on the big Opti's was because of an epidemic of blown power
> heads, and went off into your detonation sermon.
No of course I have no "numbers" but I admit I don't think as a total
of all shipped it could/would be even a serious minority but why would
anyone buy a lottery ticket for 15000 even if the odds are pretty good, the
risk is too high.
>
>
> There are a lot of reasons why there would be a stop ship. For example
> do you know the fine for shipping non-compliant motors? Or motors that
> have some significant difference from the ones that were tested? Maybe
> we ought to send some of our american bureacrats to Oz. :-)
Well that's correct but I guess all they've got to do is say that &
they haven't. The best I've seen is Bill's post where they admitted
stopping shipment because of issues not fully understood, damn Del is that
design worries or what?
I try to honestly explain why they fail; I'm certainly not the one
saying they are failing, the owners & Merc themselves are saying that.
Over the yrs now I've never been technically taken on over the fichts &
now it seems the Optis, I have to keep repeating to myself; "it's the lean
burn at power dopey"!
>
> >
> > Just a comment if I may ;-) Rich!!!! they've got to be kidding on
> the
> > one hand they say the engines save 80% of fuel BECAUSE they are lean;
> then
> > say well yes the plugs are fouling because they're rich, come on????
> be a
> > bit skeptical what are they really likely to say?
>
> designed to run lean at low speed. maybe a bad idea or not, but that is
> what the EPA wants.
That's not correct the EPA just wants the motors to stop spewing raw
unburnt fuel out & that's a fair ask these days. The EPA doesn't care how
they do it just so long as they do it, the 4 strokes seem to comply just
fine to what are pretty tame requirements really.
> Screw up the code in the computer, oops fouls
> plugs. Maybe they were trying to fix some sort of break in problem and
> bingo. Likewise it is possible to get a batch of bad parts.
>
Well I have to accept your guesses if I want to be able to put mine so
fine, but I can also comment that these things have been sold to the public
since 98 now & as for the actual physical engine making process Merc have
been doing that a pretty long time now, suddenly they forgot how??? a
detonation blow to the head maybe???
>
> Ever hear about the bad spindle bearings in IBM Mainframe disk drives in
> the 80's? One would think that bearings would be no big deal, eh?
Yes & they admitted it & fixed it but this has been going on for coming
up 5 yrs & they still charge a premium to the public to do their testing
for them.
>
> >
> > "Sorry folks, these engines are blowing up & we don't want to tell
> you
> > the design is defective, so we'll go back to the 50s & tell you it's
> the
> > spark plugs or you should have used our twice the price dealer oil or
> wait
> > for it; bad fuel" a joke.
> >
> > People used to run OBs on by today's standards questionable, fuel
> at
> > very rich mixtures, full of 25:1 engine oil & normal plugs & there was
> > never the fouling seen on these so called lean burn, claimed 400:1
> > "special" dealer only TCW3 & plugs that cost at least twice if not 3
> times
> > the normal price & then they say if you get 100 hrs out of them that's
> > "normal" & you're lucky, that's 100 hrs from the powerhead more
> likely.
>
> And a big motor in those days was a 20 hp. The gas didn't have alcohol
> in it either. Better gas than you get today, fer sure. At least in the
> US. You have all that clean air oxygenated rots in 3 weeks gas in Oz?
No the older OBs were more than 20 HP & this "it's the fuel" thing
doesn't fly, thats like saying they've designed AND they're marketing
engines to the public with no warning when they know they'll not be
reliable on the fuel legally available. Gee del don't give them ideas,
what's next it's the user's fault because they didn't know about or use the
special twice the price dealer only fuel ????
Regards & thanks for the answer
K
>
> >
> > K
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > del
> >
> >
> >
K. Smith
> del cecchi wrote:
>
lots snipped
>
> >
> > Now Karen, there you go again. Reading the Bass Board there haven't
> > been that many reports of blown Optimaxes. A year ago there was some
> > complaining about the oil consumption, but no epidemic of blown motors.
>
> Well a while back I just kept posting for Harry, literally dozens &
> dozens but if you're now saying there's no problems & you rely upon dealers
> in any manner go for it fine, they'll hang you out to dry just like the
> Ficht dealers did.
>
You got me thinking (you're good at that) & although I'm too busy I had a
quick look, now knowing you're much much better at this than me I get worried
when you say you can't find any unhappy campers. As always I respect other
peoples' rights so trust this pasting is fair usage in the premises.
Subject: Lake Lanier, Georgia
Submitted by Striper Sniper (ip 63.124.242.42)
Date Fished: 4/22/01
Water Temperature: 65
Water Clarity: 2-3 feet
Fished off the dock and caught 1 LM and 2 crappie because my new Merc OPTIMAX
225 BLEW UP. I've heard lots
of stories now about these engines blowing power heads. Mine appears to have
had a stuck injector which caused the
cyliner to heat up, burned a hole in the piston and broke a rod. It doesn't
look like the rod went through the block like
the other one the repair shop showed me. The local Ranger/Merc repair shop
said it would be 8 weeks before I see my
boat again.
Starting to see morning and evening topwater striper action in my cove off Six
Mile (JoeR - I think you know where
this is). Morning activity is around 7A-8A and the stronger evening action is
around 7P-8PM.
american outboards From: Dominator (209.86.140.36), GEORGIA
Hey Sniper, let me tell you something man, to hell with these american
products. $#@$-em ! I'm on my
second oMC in 2 years and I'm here to tell you my next motor WILL BE a
HONDA 4 stroker. Let me
give you a damn good piece of advice. When you get that piece of $%$#
motor back, sell the hell out of it
while you can and by you a good jap machine and you'l be able to forget
about problems- motor
problems..Trust me on this one pal. www.biglanierstripers.com
I almost got a Yamaha From: Striper Sniper (63.124.242.42), GEORGIA
When I went to buy this boat at the local Ranger dealer, he didn't have
the model I wanted in stock or
available anytime soon but they commonly rigged them with Yamahas. I
checked around and found
exactly what I wanted in another state except that it had the Optimax in
it. Not knowing better at the
time, I bought it anyway. It treated me well for almost 6 months but
this epislode and everything I've
heard about Optimax problems since then has given me "buyers remorse". I
always give a company a
chance to redeem themselves with good service after the fact when a
problem arises but the 8 weeks
this is going to take is well beyond what I consider acceptable.
Any word, good or bad, on the Yamaha?
Hi Guys!
Hope all had a Happy New Year!!
I wanted to post a message to find out if anyone is having some of the same
problems I have had with my 1999 Mercury Optimax 200.
I bought a Proline 221 back last May and even though I wanted a Yamaha Engine,
I was told by the dealership that Proline only packaged their boats with
Mercury's.
What a mistake. Should have bought another boat.
I have 60 hours or so on the engine and I get Check Engine lights, Overheating
lights, the engine stalls when lowering throttle and though it may be my
imagination does not sound smooth while idling. I have yet to go out in the
boat and not have any engine problems.
Immediately after having my dealer do the "50 Hour" service on the engine, I
went out into the Intercoastal and got an engine overheat indication 7 times
in the first 1/2 hour. I turned around and went home.
The dealer just told me to bring it in again and then I called Mercury. What a
bunch of cold fish! Mercury Customer Service couldn't have been more uncaring.
And to top it all off, If I want to pay $3100.00, I can buy an extended
warranty just so I will not have to pay for the inherent problems that this
engine has.
In closing, I would like to find out if anyone has experienced any Optimax
problems and does anyone know if there is a Marine Lemon Law?
Thanks for your time.
Marc Schlesinger
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
mar...@bellsouth.net
Maybe one of the OptiMAX owners could direct you to the OptiMAX owner's
registry
www site.
On the boating and bassboating boards at
http://www.wmi.org/www/boating/boatboard/index.html
there have been a number of reports of these alarms, but other than destroying
confidence in the motor and or dealer, it seems to be easily resolved. There
have
been numerous reports of excessive oil consumption in the 200/225, and a few
isolated compressor or powerhead failures. It should be a low stress motor,
given
the porky 440 lb weight, hopefully that will translate into durability.
There are many many more, do you want me to start posting them I did it
for Harry a while back then he got even snakier with me;-) you know you just
can't please some people. Anyway happy to do the research for you or just type
Optimax problems into the Google search engine that gets lots then, do it
again into the Google Groups engine & get lots more.
Again not every engine sure not even a serious minority but if it were
your money you'd rightly be worried, I note as nicely as possible that despite
all your support for this scam when it came time to use your own money you
bought carbs, good decision I say. As for your the problems have gone
away...........are there colours in your world or is it like most dreams black
& white??
Best regards,
K
Del Cecchi
"K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> writes:
|> "K. Smith" wrote:
|>
|>
|>
|> There are many many more, do you want me to start posting them I did it
|> for Harry a while back then he got even snakier with me;-) you know you just
|> can't please some people. Anyway happy to do the research for you or just type
|> Optimax problems into the Google search engine that gets lots then, do it
|> again into the Google Groups engine & get lots more.
|>
|> Again not every engine sure not even a serious minority but if it were
|> your money you'd rightly be worried, I note as nicely as possible that despite
|> all your support for this scam when it came time to use your own money you
|> bought carbs, good decision I say. As for your the problems have gone
|> away...........are there colours in your world or is it like most dreams black
|> & white??
|>
|> Best regards,
|>
|> K
|>
One guy had a stuck injector and fried his motor. Another guy took his to the
dealer and right afterward he got an overheat indicator (7 times in 1/2 hour), so
the dealer said "bring it back" and when he called Merc to rip them a new one
they didn't kiss up.
Is the failure rate of Optimax higher than the carb'd motors? Seems like it.
And my explanation is that it is a very complicated thing compared to the carb
and EFI motors. Did the advertising gloss over the potential for teething
problems? Of course, what would you expect.
And I'm sure you could find dozens more to post. But I will continue to say that
it proves nothing one way or another about the soundness of the technology. I
worried more about longevity and suitability for long periods of frozen storage
personally, although I also realized that even good technologies take a while to
iron out. So I am an agnostic on this technology. After all I have had no
access to the kind of information that would be needed to make an independent
engineering evaluation.
As for OMC, it appears they had at a minimum some design problems with a
technology they didn't understand very well, compounded by a late start. The
late start may have contributed to inadequate testing, as perhaps did a
misunderstanding
of how customers used their motors. It was topped off with a helping of poor
management.
The shot about the colors in my world was uncalled for.
--
Del Cecchi
K. Smith
> On 22 Jun 2001 12:59:53 GMT, cec...@signa.rchland.ibm.com (Del Cecchi)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <3B32B6CC...@nospamiprimus.com.au>,
> > "K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> writes:
> >|> "K. Smith" wrote:
> >|>
> >
> >|>
> >|>
> >|> There are many many more, do you want me to start posting them I did it
> >|> for Harry a while back then he got even snakier with me;-) you know you just
> >|> can't please some people. Anyway happy to do the research for you or just type
> >|> Optimax problems into the Google search engine that gets lots then, do it
> >|> again into the Google Groups engine & get lots more.
> >|>
> >|> Again not every engine sure not even a serious minority but if it were
> >|> your money you'd rightly be worried, I note as nicely as possible that despite
> >|> all your support for this scam when it came time to use your own money you
> >|> bought carbs, good decision I say. As for your the problems have gone
> >|> away...........are there colours in your world or is it like most dreams black
> >|> & white??
> >|>
> >|> Best regards,
> >|>
> >|> K
>
> The point is, you're not sure about anything in relation to these
> engines.
Admitted indeed Merc themselves have said the same. Read Bill's post;-)
Gee another personal attack how new & novel from you Harry!! What nothing
substantive to say about the thread????, what poor puppy couldn't understand again
??? come at least have a try Harry, I will honestly assist in any manner possible &
I'm sure Del will help you also if you want a balanced/contrary view, so at the end
even you will have some rational questions to resolve.
Let me say up front so even you might understand; I'm saying the dealers that's
your mates Harry, are at best stupid but more likely outright liars & they're ripping
people off continuing to sell very expensive OBs that are at best defective but I say
worse have a well known & understood design fault.
>
>
>
> "Not even a serious minority" indeed.
>
> I'd still like to know:
>
> What's your tie to Japanese engine companies?
None at all, well I buy a few Japanese engines if that's what you mean, I'm told
I prefer GM through.
Can I ask what's your share holding in Garmin & when did you get it??? & is that
when/why you started constantly spamming the NG over their lightweight, amateur,
overpriced, GPS systems; the ones the pros rightly laugh at & won't go near? It's
around the bay sailor/yacht club & hiker stuff Harry not proper marine gear; but spam
away by all means everybody else does ;-).
>
> How many Optimax engines have you seen?
Lots & lots they "were" getting popular here because of the Ficht debacle but now
they getting their getting a reputation all on their own. But you can't see much of
how the ECU works it would take a Del to make any sort of sense of that. but I do
know they're lean at power because Merc advertised same over & over & over in the
early days, a bit quiet on it now though hmmmmmm wonder why?.
>
> How many have you disassembled?
I already answered None indeed it seems they disassemble themselves.
>
> How many have you run?
I don't own any & won't. I bet lots of people who do wish they didn't also.
>
> What's your personal experience with high horsepower modern outboards?
Hmmm a bit more than I'd like to say ;-) 4 stroke of course. ;-)
What's your point Harry is there an admission test now before I can enter a
particular thread ??? the dealers would pass---yes??? but oops; they turned out to be
lying regards Ficht.
So post when you were elected/appointed by Tony Soprano? NG captain & how/when
these rules came into being because I missed it. Needless to say there's nothing
independent about me I'm a real team player right down the line, so if it turns out
to be the case that you're in charge I'll be quiet of course, as I'm sure you'll
silence a few others who don't accept your bully boy tactics.
I guess you've gotten so used to being right about everything all the time the
mere thought of publicly risking taking a contrary view to the majority is more than
you can contemplate hey.
Best Regards,
K
>
>
> Harry Krause
> ------------
>
> It's evolutionary, going from governor to president, and this is a
> significant
> step, to be able to vote for yourself on the ballot, and I'll be able
> to do so
> next fall, I hope. -GW Bush
K. Smith
Del Cecchi wrote:
In article <3B32B6CC...@nospamiprimus.com.au>,
 "K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> writes:
|> "K. Smith" wrote:
|>|>
|>
|>Â Â Â Â There are many many more, do you want me to start posting them I did it
|> for Harry a while back then he got even snakier with me;-) you know you just
|> can't please some people. Anyway happy to do the research for you or just type
|> Optimax problems into the Google search engine that gets lots then, do it
|> again into the Google Groups engine & get lots more.
|>
|>Â Â Â Â Again not every engine sure not even a serious minority but if it were
|> your money you'd rightly be worried, I note as nicely as possible that despite
|> all your support for this scam when it came time to use your own money you
|> bought carbs, good decision I say. As for your the problems have gone
|> away...........are there colours in your world or is it like most dreams black
|> & white??
|>
|> Best regards,
|>
|> K
|>One guy had a stuck injector and fried his motor. Another guy took his to the
dealer and right afterward he got an overheat indicator (7 times in 1/2 hour), so
the dealer said "bring it back" and when he called Merc to rip them a new one
they didn't kiss up.
Â
Â
Is the failure rate of Optimax higher than the carb'd motors? Seems like it.
   A concession?? Come on you'll make me soft ;-)
Â
And my explanation is that it is a very complicated thing compared to the carb
and EFI motors. Did the advertising gloss over the potential for teething
problems? Of course, what would you expect.
   Yeah I see your point they increase the price of OBs then deceptively hide the known problems but continue to let the spruiker dealers tell anything that comes into their heads so they can sell ! sell ! sell !!
Â
And I'm sure you could find dozens more to post. But I will continue to say that
it proves nothing one way or another about the soundness of the technology.
   Gee in one embodiment it kills a huge Co that
has been around since spot was a pup so bad it just walks away & leaves
the carcass in a table drain, the continuing embodiment is I concede a
bit better but the buyers are suffering all sorts of stress from no boat
available, the danger from being stranded half way between this & that,
but..........
 I
worried more about longevity and suitability for long periods of frozen storage
personally, although I also realized that even good technologies take a while to
iron out. So I am an agnostic on this technology. After all I have had no
access to the kind of information that would be needed to make an independent
engineering evaluation.
   Gee guess what we've had this discussion 3 yrs
ago & it's your standard excuse to try & not to even discuss it
!!! The same complaints I made about ficht apply here & have never
been even answered with let alone dealt with.
   It's simple Del this has been around long enough now that some dumb dealer must have said gee ;
(i)Â Â Â We were always taught at dealer training school to be very careful changing jets in the carbed engines because they said it was "dangerous" to run the engine lean
(ii)Â Â Â These engines keep blowing up & look just like the old OBs we used to race after they've suffered a lean mix in one or other carbs, hmmmmmmmmmmmm ticking ticking.
(iii)Â Â Â At my dealer tech school I'll ask how come it's OK now to run these engines lean when it's always been the biggest of no no's
   Must have happened even the dealer team can't be that stupid (can they?) what was the answer ??? 42
Â
As for OMC, it appears they had at a minimum some design problems with a
technology they didn't understand very well, compounded by a late start.
   That's exactly the same words Merc themselves
used to justify stopping delivery of the big Optis, "not fully understood"
same problem as I said totally different methodology but ended at the same
problem, lean @ power = detonation.
The
late start may have contributed to inadequate testing, as perhaps did a
 misunderstanding
of how customers used their motors. It was topped off with a helping of poor
management.The shot about the colors in my world was uncalled for.
   Yes I know!! just as you know I don't mean it;-)
but when the Krause hound is baying for blood the adrenaline makes me jumpy,
if I ever need to apologise to you; I do. (you're getting DELicate)
Regards,
K
Â--
Del Cecchi
Harry Krause
> > Gee another personal attack how new & novel from you Harry!! What
nothing
> substantive to say about the thread
I should make a substantive comment about your uninformed diarrhea about
Optimax engines?.
>
> Let me say up front so even you might understand; I'm saying the
dealers that's
> your mates Harry, are at best stupid but more likely outright liars &
they're ripping
> people off continuing to sell very expensive OBs that are at best
defective but I say
> worse have a well known & understood design fault.
You've been involved in a scientifically conducted research study of Optimax
dealers? Please email me the questionnaire, the methodology and the
responses...
> >
> > What's your tie to Japanese engine companies?
>
> None at all, well I buy a few Japanese engines if that's what you
mean, I'm told
> I prefer GM through.
>
> Can I ask what's your share holding in Garmin & when did you get it???
& is that
> when/why you started constantly spamming the NG over their lightweight,
amateur,
> overpriced, GPS systems; the ones the pros rightly laugh at & won't go
near? It's
> around the bay sailor/yacht club & hiker stuff Harry not proper marine
gear; but spam
> away by all means everybody else does ;-).
I bought my shares in Garmin the same week the company went public, but I've
been a fan of the company's low-cost units for years. Garmin has done more
to popularize GPS use on small boats than any other company. What's proper
marine gear, Karen, the galvanized nails that hold together that ugly POS
"diesel" outboard you have?
>
> >
> > How many Optimax engines have you seen?
>
> Lots & lots they "were" getting popular here because of the Ficht
debacle but now
> they getting their getting a reputation all on their own. But you can't
see much of
> how the ECU works it would take a Del to make any sort of sense of that.
but I do
> know they're lean at power because Merc advertised same over & over & over
in the
> early days, a bit quiet on it now though hmmmmmm wonder why?.
I know exactly what the ECU does, at least for the 98 vintage engines.
>
> >
> > How many have you disassembled?
>
> I already answered None indeed it seems they disassemble themselves.
As I suspected.
> >
> > How many have you run?
>
> I don't own any & won't. I bet lots of people who do wish they didn't
also.
As I suspected.
>
> >
> > What's your personal experience with high horsepower modern outboards?
>
> Hmmm a bit more than I'd like to say ;-) 4 stroke of course. ;-)
There are no high horsepower four stroke engines available at the moment,
though Yamaha seems close.
> What's your point Harry is there an admission test now before I can
enter a
> particular thread ??? the dealers would pass---yes??? but oops; they
turned out to be
> lying regards Ficht.
Some Ficht dealers apparently did lie. But on the other hand you don't have
any experience with Optimax engines and only seem to regurgitate what you
pick up off of newsgroups. Yawn.
--
Harry Krause
------------
Help! I've fallen down, and I kind of like it down here!
K. Smith
I guess we disagree again that's OK by me. I probably shouldn't have tried
to bait you by having a go a Garmin I use it myself ;-) but the pros don't.
Hmmm..............???
>
> > What's your point Harry is there an admission test now before I can
> enter a
> > particular thread ??? the dealers would pass---yes??? but oops; they
> turned out to be
> > lying regards Ficht.
>
> Some Ficht dealers apparently did lie. But on the other hand you don't have
> any experience with Optimax engines and only seem to regurgitate what you
> pick up off of newsgroups. Yawn.
Hang on I've never seen what I say about the lean burn probs anywhere else,
I've seen some plagiarize long after I've posted stuff sure, but that's a
compliment really, but at least don't take my originality from me ;-) say I'm
wrong AND why by all means please but this is original work.
We've already had some say we copied the Ficht releases when we were at
least 9 mths ahead of them & as I said I just want the optimax stuff on the
record, it'll come in handy I'd guess in about 12-18 mths you'll see.;-)
Best regards,
K
Harry Krause
> Harry Krause wrote:
>
> I guess we disagree again that's OK by me. I probably shouldn't have
tried
> to bait you by having a go a Garmin I use it myself ;-) but the pros
don't.
The pro *whats* don't use Garmin? You mean, the guys who drive oil tankers?
I know plenty of pro fisherman who use Garmin instruments, also charter
captains and head boat captains. Since these fellas get paid for their
boating services, that makes them pros.
>
K. Smith
Gee Harry what you were saying was so obvious I didn't think I needed to
point it out.
The Garmin stuff is OK it's at the lower end of the scale & as you say
it's got lots of people using gps that otherwise probably wouldn't have.
Garmin like lots of others don't actually make gps they just make or more
like have made for them, the cases, buttons, screens & some programming but
they, like lots of others get their "chip" from one of the "real" electronics
Cos say Texas Inst.. I make not criticism there are lots of essentially gps
package/marketers lots & lots in Asia we even have a NZ made clone package
here which is much more marine oriented, more "usable" features & of course
easily romps all over Garmin for price.
For little boats going out fishing for a day maybe 2 they're all fine but
not the real deal. I hope you didn't think you were investing & now spamming
the NG for, a real electronics Co???? :-) You've put your money into the
standard US package/marketing stuff (Amway springs to mind), if say by some
slip up in the rules of nature Garmin actually did do something that gave them
& your investment a real advantage in the market, how long would it be before
they were cloned??? & brought back down to where they are just another
package/marketer of someone else's chip. (A bit like all the computers, they
mostly have an Intel chip, say a seagate HD etc etc but it's a cut throat
market where the retailers & marketing are more than any real technology)
anyway I'm sure the yuppy directors are taking good care of the non American
made sports cars you bought each of them; Gee thanks for the fish Mr. Krause.
Just as an observation if I may;
I guess it's interesting to see how you can justify/spam a product you
have shares in & like all good spammers in this NG you can't truck any
contrary views not even proper discussion, but imagine if you owned shares in
Brunswick's Bayliner division, all the probably technically true things you
say about "your" GPS Co probably apply to Bayliners;
(a) they're certainly adequate for the task (hundreds of thousands if
not millions around the world, some jurisdiction would have pinged them if
they were unsafe in any manner, but most likely the US coast guard),
(b) they have provided a way into boating at a size, cost & performance
that many would otherwise never have been able to do,
(c) they increased the size of the market generally so help the
industry enormously, some go onto "maybe better" but certainly more expensive
brands, some are perfectly happy & buy them again & again,
(d) they market market market, lots of under the counter "rebates" to
the retailers to push them (that's your money in those rebates Harry!!).
(e) Sure they're not the very best, the finish is a bit iffy, but
certainly they look shiny in the shop,
(f) some windows don't work, some jam or need lots of manipulation to
make them to sorta work & even then it's not worth the effort in the real
world on a real boat trip,
(g) they're sometimes under powered by some standards but deliberately
so, the market demands this so people can get into them anyway,
(h) their range in all senses is limited, but most users at this end of
the market don't really go far anyway,
(j) they offer a cheap basic package but watch out if you option or try
to extend/use the base units full claimed/spruiked capabilities
(k) they'll slug you mercilessly on pricing for every little "extra"
thing.
As I said, all this is as true of Bayliners as it is of your Garmin the
big difference is that Bayliner actually make something, have a huge amount of
capitol invested & actually employ lots & lots of real people on the ground
not just advertising agencies & sleazy retailers.
Always good to chat, thanks.
Best Regards,
K
>
>
> >
del cecchi
> Garmin like lots of others don't actually make gps they just make
or more
> like have made for them, the cases, buttons, screens & some
programming but
> they, like lots of others get their "chip" from one of the "real"
electronics
> Cos say Texas Inst.. I make not criticism there are lots of
essentially gps
> package/marketers lots & lots in Asia we even have a NZ made clone
package
> here which is much more marine oriented, more "usable" features & of
course
> easily romps all over Garmin for price.
>
> Always good to chat, thanks.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> K
>
> >
Rockwell. Rockwell is a large aerospace company.
del cecchi
hkr...@capuantispam.net
> "K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3B353915...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
> > Garmin like lots of others don't actually make gps they just make
> or more
> > like have made for them, the cases, buttons, screens & some
> programming but
> > they, like lots of others get their "chip" from one of the "real"
> electronics
> > Cos say Texas Inst.. I make not criticism there are lots of
> essentially gps
> > package/marketers lots & lots in Asia we even have a NZ made clone
> package
> > here which is much more marine oriented, more "usable" features & of
> course
> > easily romps all over Garmin for price.
Oh, I'm sure the NZ clone unit is much more marine oriented...it's so good
that I wonder why I can't find it at any of the marine stores I frequent.
You seem to have a real problem with products of American companies. I suppose
if I lived in a country where most of the land was unsuitable for habitation,
I'd be a mite testy, too.
K. Smith
Come on Harry we all know you're beyond that; you lost your testes years ago.
K
K. Smith
> >
> > K
> >
> > >
> I believe almost all the consumer gps boxes in the US use a chipset from
> Rockwell. Rockwell is a large aerospace company.
>
Thanks Del I wasn't sure who was the intel of gps chips, thanks again.
Now you say it I think I remember reading the NZ stuff uses Rockwell
chips, it seems about as good as the others just a bit cheaper here. e.g.
a Garmin 180 here that costs around A$1650 (US$841) their comparable is
about A$1170 (US$596) but lots of details so they can argue in the yacht
clubs about this & that as they get drunk.
Regards,
K
>
> del cecchi
Harry Krause
Tell you what...at various price points, from $100 US on up, why not take
the various Garmin marine models and compare them to the units *you* believe
are "the real deal." that sell for approximately the same, and I don't mean
units you can buy in OZ with OZ labels that get around any import duties.
Oh...and the units have to be widely available.
Here's a URL that shows most of the Garmin "marine" units. There are about
30 of them:
Let's see your comparison on a feature by feature and accuracy basis...
Or is this just more of your anti-US bullship.
--
Harry Krause
------------
Nothing spoils a vacation like an inter-galactic war
Harry Krause
I'll be at a West Marine today...I'll be sure to look for some of these
fine, inexpensive New Zealand electronics. What did you say the brand name
was?
--
Harry Krause
------------
Capitalism is what people do if you leave them alone
Harry Krause
"Harry Krause" <hkr...@capu.net> wrote in message
news:kWjZ6.310$jR.5...@news.abs.net...
An afterthought. I have three wristwatches, a Rolex, which was expensive, a
"diver's watch," which was a couple hundred dollars, and Seiko, which was
about $100. I suppose the "real pros" would wear only the Rolex, even though
the diver's watch and the Seiko are far more accurate and consistent.
I have a fairly expensive GPS unit on the new boat. It has a much larger
screen than the cheap Garmin unit I have on the small boat. It isn't any
more accurate. It has more features, of course, but it sold for a lot more.
Skipper
> An afterthought. I have three wristwatches, a Rolex, which was expensive, a
> "diver's watch," which was a couple hundred dollars, and Seiko, which was
> about $100. I suppose the "real pros" would wear only the Rolex, even though
> the diver's watch and the Seiko are far more accurate and consistent.
> I have a fairly expensive GPS unit on the new boat. It has a much larger
> screen than the cheap Garmin unit I have on the small boat. It isn't any
> more accurate. It has more features, of course, but it sold for a lot more.
Sorta like a Bayliner that is good to go vs. the expensive spread which
is not?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
"Skipper" <Ski...@kscable.com> wrote in message
news:3B35D60E...@kscable.com...
No, nothing at all like that. My inexpensive watches are competently made,
as is my Garmin GPS, and all are suitable for the kind of service they see
out on the ocean. A Bayliner would not be. I would go anywhere wearing my
Seiko, but I wouldn't go out of sight of land in a Bayliner.
--
Harry Krause
------------
I use original taglines; they just originate elsewhere!
Raymond T. Lowe
a
> "diver's watch," which was a couple hundred dollars, and Seiko, which was
> about $100. I suppose the "real pros" would wear only the Rolex, even
though
> the diver's watch and the Seiko are far more accurate and consistent.
>
> I have a fairly expensive GPS unit on the new boat. It has a much larger
> screen than the cheap Garmin unit I have on the small boat. It isn't any
> more accurate. It has more features, of course, but it sold for a lot
more.
>
I wear a Tissot. An excellent Swiss watch at a very reasonable price. It
keeps
precise time, as close to an atomic clock as any time-piece on the market.
Mine
has a sapphire crystal, water resistant to 50M, stainless, and you have to
manually advance the short months but I wouldn't trade it for a lifetime
supply of
Indigo's. They start around $200 U.S. but they last a lifetime. BTW, if you
don't
have this program on your 'puter, get it! (www.atomtime.com)
Price and value do not go hand in hand. GPS units are like any other
electronic
device such as computers and VCR's. The prices are dropping and new models
offer more for less. I've looked at the various handhelds last year and I'm
glad I
put it off. The Garmin 76 models for instance raises the bar for features
and value
in a hand-held. Doesn't it make those non-WAAS units somewhat obsolete?
RT
--
Remove "bogus" to send an email
K. Smith
Clearly I've struck a nerve again sorry Harry,
No the claimed features of all the marketing scams is how they do it, sorry
by real boaters on real trips don't play with the dinky little stuff.
I rechecked the pricing the Garmins have dropped 10% this year but are
still way more expensive than the NZ Navmans which have also dropped but only
3%, competition don't ya just love it???
I'm not against the US or anybody else (well the French but that's
different).
As with all scams the Garmin pricing has little to do with costs but how
many are in the pyramid just as the OB pricing is a wash between here & the US.
Anyway spam away to rec boats I'm sure you'll sell a few more to your
mates, who'll play with them in the driveway for a week or two then throw them
in the corner with all their other fads. Won't stop them telling any & all how
clever they were to buy them & how much they "need" a gps because after all
they're real passage makers.
Regards,
K
Harry Krause
> Harry Krause wrote:
>
>
> No the claimed features of all the marketing scams is how they do it,
sorry
> by real boaters on real trips don't play with the dinky little stuff.
You are sounding more and more like Skipper. What, pray tell, is a "real
boater" on a "real trip"?
>
> I rechecked the pricing the Garmins have dropped 10% this year but are
> still way more expensive than the NZ Navmans which have also dropped but
only
> 3%, competition don't ya just love it???
Navmans? Is that the brand name? They don't have much market share in the
biggest market of all.
Checked the company's website...looks like they market derivative products,
copies of some Garmin and Lowrance units. Yawn.
del cecchi
snip
> I rechecked the pricing the Garmins have dropped 10% this year but
are
> still way more expensive than the NZ Navmans which have also dropped
but only
> 3%, competition don't ya just love it???
>
> K
>
>
Well, I am not a passage maker, although canoeing in Quetico Provincial
Park is sort of the same thing on a small scale, except you can see
shore. The shore all looks pretty much alike, however.
Anyway, what do those NavMans cost? They use rockwell chips don't they?
I'm curious.
del cecchi
Del Cecchi
http://www.conexant.com and search on GPS.
--
Del Cecchi
cecchi@rchland
rochergc
Back in the early mid 90's I was involved in assisting a third party design group in
designing a down converter for Garmin for one of their GPS's.
Garry Burrell (Gar part of Gar-min) at the time wanted a US source for the silicon.
Fab'd up here on 8" wafers in IBM Burlington Vt. I doubt we (IBM) make anything for
them currently however. Gregg C.
K. Smith
Sorry for the delay & remember I don't "understand" this electronic
stuff so be careful with me please ;-) also it's just out of interest, you
asked & I certainly don't sell any of it or have any other interest in any
manner so I'm not spruiking/spamming Navman!!! There's not much difference
in quality etc (there really isn't ,although I better point out that Garmin
use Gmap charts which are like Beta tapes vs VHS, most of the commercial
stuff has gone C chart & it seems even Garmin now wish they were too, but
that's another yacht club argument:-). As they all use outside chips,
indeed having followed the link you kindly gave it seems Garmin make even
less than I thought they did, a true marketing scam nothing more. The
trouble Harry's investment has is that literally anyone can set up & drive
prices back down if Garmin ever even started to look remotely OK.
Again I don't "know" this but I think lots of those truck tracking
systems in the US are Navman based & I do know some of the plastimo stuff
in Europe is made by them but enough; -) to the prices;
From current winter full retail catalogues & at 0.52 exchange
(today's). On that it seems the US$ amounts never seem to be right , unless
most US Cos heavily discount or avoid lots of costs for exports because
time & again retail pricing seems a wash as if they've fixed a "world"
price. This is alot like the Japanese market some years ago where you could
nearly always buy their own things cheaper away from their own market.
Comparisons are a bit difficult because particularly people like Garmin
flood the market with "models" so they can confuse with mostly useless
features but then justify price differences;
(1) Navman don't advertise handhelds, Garmin seem to market basic hiker
units as marine, but the pricing is certainly marine dealer. e.g. they are
mostly sold battery powered which is not much use on a boat so you usually
need as a minimum the cigarette lighter lead & maybe the mounting bracket
so their cheap say eTrex is A$289 (US$150) + lighter lead A$68.90 (US$36),
bracket A$69.90 (US$36), so total before you'd probably want it on a boat =
A$427.80 (US$222)
(2) Navman Tracker 500 A$559 (US$291) is a basic proper track plotter it
seems it's a competitor to the Garmin 128 A$599 (US$311), a clear price
advantage but;
(3) the Tracker 500i is A$579 (US$301) is the same unit but it accepts
inputs & displays fuel consumption with a fuel flow sensor at A$109.90
(US$57) so you can finish up with a basic big screen readable GPS including
displayed fuel flow for much less than any other system that I've seen here
A$688.90 (US$358)
(4) Tracker 900 A$1199 (US$623) shows tides etc is at least a "same as"
Garmin 180 A$1479 (US$769) & I gave the price drops earlier, the Navman is
still something like 19% cheaper, big difference in a basic chart plotter.
The other basic chart plotter is Seiwa which is A$1599 (US$831). Just as an
aside the full colour 950 (much better) is A$2199 (US$1143)
(5) Here anyway Garmin aren't even in the proper equipment market they
seem to get eaten by people like Raytheon, Magellan, any of the many
Japanese/asian etc & of course as above the Gmap is a bummer.
I shouldn't have said anything should I Del now the Garmin spammer will
crack a complete wob.
Oh well; back under this cold rock,
K
del cecchi
300 US Dollars are the big sellers. Everything else seems to be sold at
a large premium. The chip set is almost certainly significantly less
than 50, although the 8 MB of flash memory to hold maps downloaded from
computer is probably another 20 or so.
del cecchi
"K. Smith" <drift...@nospamiprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3B392FCB...@nospamiprimus.com.au...
Harry Krause
> del cecchi wrote:
>
> > >
> I shouldn't have said anything should I Del now the Garmin spammer
will
> crack a complete wob.
Consider, if you still have it, your boat looks as if it barely floats, I
find it hard to imagine it makes a difference what GPS you have aboard.
--
Harry Krause
------------
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's intolerance
