RFD: rec.boats.engines
t.r.mcloughlin
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
unmoderated group rec.boats.engines
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a
world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup rec.boats.engines. This is
not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural
details are below.
Newsgroup line:
rec.boats.engines Boat engines, drive trains, propellers, etc.
RATIONALE: all groups
In the beginning, rec.boats was alone. Boaters of all propulsions
discussed everything about boats there, and when they weren't
discussing boats they were discussing splitting rec.boats. Over time,
rec.boats has successfully spawned many sub-groups (r.b.cruising,
r.b.racing, r.b.building, etc.), and this proposal continues in that
"split by function" tradition.
Mechanical propulsion systems play an important role for both the
power and the sail boater. Currently, discussion of engines and
mechanical propulsion is concentrated in rec.boats and accounts for
a significant portion of the total traffic in the group. The volume
of engine-related traffic tends to overpower other general interest
boating discussions. Also, engine discussion is often duplicated in
rec.boats.cruising. So, two major reasons support this proposal:
1) there is sufficient overall posting volume to support an
engine-specific group, and 2) consolidating this traffic from
rec.boats and rec.boats.cruising will help improve both the
engine-specific discussion and the general and cruising discussions
in the other groups.
CHARTER: rec.boats.engines
The rec.boats.engines newsgroup is chartered for discussion of all
aspects of mechanical marine propulsion systems.
The newsgroup is open to discussion of all marine and boating-
related mechanical propulsion systems. This includes their use, care
and feeding, troubleshooting and repairs, etc. These systems include
inboard, outboard, I/O, gas/diesel/electric, controls, transmissions,
propellers, jet drives, sailboat auxiliary engines, gensets, etc.
Discussion of high performance engines, propellers, and other
advanced performance issues should remain in rec.boats.racing.power.
Commercial advertisements and personal "For Sale" and "Wanted To Buy"
postings are not appropriate in this group (rec.boats.marketplace
exists for that purpose), but new product announcements and
discussions are appropriate. The general "nettiquete" FAQs
posted in news.announce.newusers and news.answers all apply to
rec.boats.engines.
END CHARTER.
PROCEDURE:
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue
for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion
warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.
All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and
"How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to
these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have
any questions about the process.
DISTRIBUTION:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
rec.boats
rec.boats.cruising
rec.boats.racing.power
rec.boats.racing
rec.boats.building
rec.boats.electronics
alt.sailing.asa
Proponent: t.r.mcloughlin <tmcl...@erols.com>
Proponent: Walt Bilofsky <bilo...@toolworks.com>
Proponent: Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca>
Proponent: Peggie Hall <peg...@worldnet.att.net>
Proponent: Paul Kamen <fish...@netcom.com>
Proponent: Rod McInnis <rmci...@lsil.com>
Proponent: Peter W. Meek <pwm...@mail.msen.com>
David Bostwick
FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group rec.boats.engines
Instructions for voting are just before the ballot itself. Read the
instructions before voting. If you have questions about the voting process,
ask the votetaker.
This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be
posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by
the votetaker. Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid.
Newsgroups line:
rec.boats.engines Boat engines, drive trains, propellers, etc.
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 30 Oct 1997.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: T. R. McLoughlin <tmcl...@erols.com>
Proponent: Walt Bilofsky <bilo...@toolworks.com>
Proponent: Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca>
Proponent: Peggie Hall <peg...@worldnet.att.net>
Proponent: Paul Kamen <fish...@netcom.com>
Proponent: Rod McInnis <rmci...@lsil.com>
Proponent: Peter W. Meek <pwm...@mail.msen.com>
Votetaker: David Bostwick <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>
RATIONALE: rec.boats.engines
CHARTER: rec.boats.engines
END CHARTER.
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======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line =======
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: rec.boats.engines
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <RBE-0001> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------- -----------------------------------------------------------
[ ] rec.boats.engines
======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 27 1997).
PQ datestamp: 970324
--
Voting address : bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu
rmci...@lsil.com
OK, it's time to stop griping and vote!
Marcus G Bell
hidda (hi...@mauigateway.com) wrote:
> No.
By this, I take it Dennis means "No. It is NOT time to stop griping
and vote." Gripe away, then.
The method for voting is outlined in the CFV document itself, which I
saw on news.groups and rec.boats.* groups as well.
--
--
Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
hidda
hidda
Marcus G Bell wrote:
> and vote." Gripe away, then.
>
> The method for voting is outlined in the CFV document itself, which I
> saw on news.groups and rec.boats.* groups as well.
>
> --
> --
> Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
Since when does anybody listen to me? After all, I'm a Harry Hugg'n
Bayliner Bash'n Know Nuth'n from Hawaii.
Dennis
Marcus G Bell
hidda (hi...@mauigateway.com) wrote:
> Since when does anybody listen to me? After all, I'm a Harry Hugg'n
> Bayliner Bash'n Know Nuth'n from Hawaii.
> Dennis
Well, I for one enjoyed discussing with you and others the losses
associated with the drivetrain of outboards, i/o's, and inboards. You
know, the physics of gears pumping oil and stuff. I think I learned
something from it. Wouldn't mind doing it again. Maybe the proposed
new group would be a good place to do it.
Peter W. Meek
On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:54:59 -1000, hidda <hi...@mauigateway.com>
wrote:
>Since when does anybody listen to me? After all, I'm a Harry Hugg'n
>Bayliner Bash'n Know Nuth'n from Hawaii.
The vote-taker will listen if you follow
the instructions in the CFV.
--Pete
pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/
David Bostwick
LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group rec.boats.engines
Votetaker: David Bostwick <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>
RATIONALE: rec.boats.engines
CHARTER: rec.boats.engines
END CHARTER.
HOW TO VOTE:
| 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: rec.boats.engines
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <RBE-0002> (Do not remove this line!)
David Bostwick
RESULT
unmoderated group rec.boats.engines fails 104:21
There were 104 YES votes and 21 NO votes, for a total of 125 valid votes.
There were 2 abstains and 2 invalid ballots.
For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.
Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may
not be voted on again for six months.
Newsgroups line:
rec.boats.engines Boat engines, drive trains, propellers, etc.
The voting period ended at 23:59:59 UTC, 30 Oct 1997.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
Votetaker: David Bostwick <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>
RATIONALE: rec.boats.engines
CHARTER: rec.boats.engines
END CHARTER.
rec.boats.engines Final Vote Ack
Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?pa...@gateway.net.au Paul Jacobs
ad...@harborcom.net Adam Mackey
alas...@law-home.demon.co.uk Alastair Law
ale...@australia.net.au Alexander S Taylor
andy...@algorithms.com Andy Wolfe
ari...@taronga.com Stephanie da Silva
atmo...@sandymillport.demon.co.uk Sandy Morton
be...@mail.med.upenn.edu Marcus Bell
ben...@grieg.holmsjoen.com Randolph Bentson
bill...@orbiter.com bill grannis
bilo...@toolworks.com Walt Bilofsky
Bl...@nospam.com Blake Marriner
BLU...@CAPECOD.NET Mark E. Poirier
brg...@mindspring.com Bill Gough
bru...@pacific.net.sg Bruce P. Barden
Budn...@aol.com Bud Puch
bw...@Lehigh.EDU Brent Benson
bz...@freenet.toronto.on.ca Ron K Walker
capq...@capquest.com Capt. David Pierucci
capt...@eagle.cc.ukans.edu Donald E. Chambers
char...@risc.sps.mot.com Charlie Mayne
Chr...@Mindspring.com Chris Lefkaditis
cl...@sonic.net Clay Buccellato
cm...@auracom.com Colin Mann
cmi...@beaches.net Charles E. Miller
COR...@pfizer.com Michael Corman
cu...@hotcoco.infi.net Curtis Johnson
cwi...@m4.sprynet.com Chris Wigley
dank...@southwind.net Daniel R. Kalal
dave....@sympatico.ca Dave Brown
der...@flash.net Roger M. Derby
dhal...@total.net Maurice d'Halewyn
dj...@juno.com Geronimo Mockingbird
DPo...@matrixgroup.com David Ponder
dsto...@csc.com David Stokely
ehs...@aom.ericsson.se Hans Hagberg
en...@lainet.com Art Engel
floria...@ki.comcity.de Florian Baier
fran...@imaginet.fr Franckey Rougane
fr...@frolix8.demon.co.uk Fred Barber
fth...@aol.com Frank Thoma
ftl...@aol.com Lee Lamb
GEC...@aol.com Grace E. Cross
g...@csd.uwm.edu George Fischer
girlh...@nospamyahoo.com Shaunna
gshe...@kichwa.com Gregory Sherwood
hf...@lerami.lerctr.org Hank Fung
hi...@vnet.es Paloma EGUIAGARAY
icl...@infi.net Ivan Clark
il...@ncar.ucar.edu Ilana Stern
J.van-d...@tu-bs.de Jan C. van der Veen
jackm...@aol.com Jack Morley
jas...@fl.net.au Jasmine Taylor
j...@worf.evms.edu John Ullian
jcgo...@mail.telepac.pt Jose Carlos Godinho
jged...@lcc.net James G. Edmondson
j...@grcmail.grc.uri.edu Jim David
ji...@w8hd.org James W. Hebert
j...@jre.com Joseph Engel
John.P...@mail.tju.edu John P Reber
jsta...@palmnet.net Jeff Stannard
jvan...@orednet.org John Vandiver
k.su...@alpha2.curtin.edu.au K.N.Sussenbach
ka...@isracom.co.il Ian Kazin,
kev...@bellatlantic.net Kevin O'Melia
ki...@best.com Kim DeVaughn
lilg...@mill.tds.net eric galant
lot...@lut.fi Timo Lotila
mar...@eskimo.com Martin Mikelsons
m...@meltzer.net Michael Meltzer
mlt.so...@class.orednet.org Michael Trigoboff
mr...@netvision.net.il maoz daniel
mwha...@micro.lucent.com Mark Whatman
pgso...@wolfenet.com Paul Sommers
plu...@skate.demon.co.uk Iain Hibbert
pwm...@mail.msen.com Peter W. Meek
rcl...@mmicsrv1.dseg.ti.com Richard Clark
redm...@ccc.it John REDMAYNE
redm...@mcimail.com Rex Edmiston
RICHAR...@HP-Chelmsford-om1.om.hp.com RICHARD_EAGER
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller
rmc...@techplus.com Russ McBean
rmci...@lsil.com Rod McInnis
ross...@u.washington.edu Ross Fleming
rql...@olypen.com Richard Lane
rrob...@fix.net Robert Robinson
ruf...@e-math.ams.org J Rufinus
sa...@istar.ca J. Scott
sc...@flash.net Joseph C. Holzschuh
smit...@uidaho.edu Phil Smith
Smi...@corning.com Smith, Nolan D
sta...@stamper.com Chris Stamper
St...@chubs.demon.co.uk Steve Simpson
sw...@open.org Stephen Yoder
t...@psp.co.uk T F Lee
tmcl...@erols.com t.r.mcloughlin
tomj...@gnv.fdt.net Tom Jefferson
tsp...@az.com Thomas Spoto
uli...@entrenet.com Bob Uline
vic...@sprynet.com Victor DeNoia
vpd...@hiwaay.net Vic Dura
wal...@RedBrick.COM Walter Wilson
Wes_...@prodigy.com Richard W. Gates
whit...@clear.net.nz Roger Whitwell
Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
agi...@IDT.NET Bob Sengstacken
bo...@datasync.com Martin H. Booda
cala...@chass.utoronto.ca T.Calabrese
chr...@nortel.ca Chris Ebenezer
demers@{spammer}cray.com Larry DeMers
fu...@gl.umbc.edu Francis Uy
gba...@adtran.com Greg Bacon
jcha...@ns.net Jack Chalais
jeffer...@ns.sympatico.ca Jeffery D. Hunt
jere...@dca.net Jere Lull
jim...@earthlink.net Jim Hill
ktsl...@concentric.net Katherine Slaughter
ol...@viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar
pa...@cag.lcs.mit.edu Patrick J. LoPresti
Paul.Be...@m.cc.utah.edu Paul Bernhardt
rob...@iea.com Bob Blanchard
Spa...@larrrrrd.demon.co.uk Chris Hayes
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown
tla...@amug.org Todd C. Lawson
to...@null.net Tony Basoglu
xpres...@worldnet.att.net Ron McFarland
Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ch...@aimnet.net Christopher Robin Zimmerman
guym...@deltanet.com Guy Macon
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HRMa...@execpc.com Rick Mackie
! No vote statement in message
ne...@freeway.net Jim Cook
! Invalid address
rmci...@teleworld.com
In article <8786977...@isc.org>, David says...
>
> RESULT
> unmoderated group rec.boats.engines fails 104:21
>
>There were 104 YES votes and 21 NO votes, for a total of 125 valid votes.
Losing the vote doesn't bother me nearyly as much as the poor turnout in the
voting. It seems that with all the "we need a new group" griping that was going
on a short while ago there would be a better turn out, even if it was to vote
NO.
Based on the scarcity of discussion that followed the RFD for the
rec.boats.daysailing proposal, I would expect a similar poor voting turn out for
that group as well.
Rod McInnis
George Jefferson
:
:Losing the vote doesn't bother me nearyly as much as the poor turnout in the
:voting.
I'll tell you what, I read this group daily and this is the first
I've heard of it.
:Based on the scarcity of discussion that followed the RFD for the
:rec.boats.daysailing proposal
missed that as well, is the voting closed?
--
george jefferson : geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
to reply simply press "r"
-- I hate editing addresses more than I hate the spam!
t.r.mcloughlin
George Jefferson wrote:
>
> :
> :Losing the vote doesn't bother me nearyly as much as the poor turnout in the
> :voting.
>
> I'll tell you what, I read this group daily and this is the first
> I've heard of it.
Well, the RESULT hasn't made it to my server yet, but I'm disappointed.
Anyway, set the alarm for six months and we can try again and we'll
do it again.
I have a feeling that the news about the RFD got lost in the
noise. Next time, we'll have to SHOUT A LOT MORE ABOUT THE
FORMAL RFD AND CFV.
trm
Marcus G Bell
(Followups-to: news.groups to connect to the threads in progress
there.)
Rod McInnis wrote:
> :Losing the vote doesn't bother me nearyly as much as the poor turnout in the
> :voting.
George Jefferson (geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu) wrote:
> I'll tell you what, I read this group daily and this is the first
> I've heard of it.
> :Based on the scarcity of discussion that followed the RFD for the
> :rec.boats.daysailing proposal
> missed that as well, is the voting closed?
Rod had written, but George snipped:
> It seems that with all the "we need a new group" griping that was
> going on a short while ago there would be a better turn out, even if
> it was to vote NO.
I see what may have happened here. There was little publicizing of the
RFD while it was in progress. Also, there was not much effort to
connect the RFD to the thread about the need for a 'sailors only'
group. The "We need a sailing group" thread existed almost unto
itself, even though it spilled into news.groups where the RFD for
rec.boats.engines and rec.boats.daysailing were taking place. "We need
a sailing group" might have been taken as a substitute for the formal
response to the RFD's, might have exhausted everyones efforts, or
might have distracted folks from the real matter at hand (3 subtly
different possibilities).
A quick scan of the list of YES voters indicated that several who
wanted a sailing group voted YES to an engines group. I think we
should not categorically state that "griping sailors" were silent on
the vote for a non-sailing group. It seems there was a need to involve
everybody to a greater degree both in the RFD stage and especially in
the CFV.
Should we confine further conversation on this to news.groups where we
benefit from news.groupies' combined experience?
Peter W. Meek
> RESULT
> unmoderated group rec.boats.engines fails 104:21
>
>There were 104 YES votes and 21 NO votes, for a total of 125 valid votes.
>There were 2 abstains and 2 invalid ballots.
>
>For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
>votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
>
Democracy in action indeed. In a way, I think it's better than
the way it goes in politics. Wouldn't it be nice if NO ONE was
elected when apathy keeps 90% of the voters away from the polls;
just do without that office until the next election.
See you all when r.b.e is eligible for another try.
Rod McInnis
Marcus G Bell wrote:
>
>
> Should we confine further conversation on this to news.groups where we
> benefit from news.groupies' combined experience?
>
No, because I am hoping that what little discussion we can generate on the
failed vote will alert those who might be interested to the fact that there is
another vote coming up.
So, if you are unaware of the proposal for the rec.boats.daysailing, then go
find the RFD and read it! It will probably have expired from your news server by
now, but you should be able to get a copy from Deja News.
Rod McInnis
Rod McInnis
George Jefferson wrote:
> :
> :Losing the vote doesn't bother me nearyly as much as the poor turnout in the
> :voting.
>
> I'll tell you what, I read this group daily and this is the first
> I've heard of it.
>
The RFD (Request for discussion) was posted on 8/27/97, to rec.boats, as well
as the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising,rec.boats.racing.power,rec.boats.racing,
rec.boats.building,rec.boats.electronics,alt.sailing.asa. There were at least
(the ones that Deja News archived) 42 follow up posts
("re:RFD:rec.boats.engines") that followed, most of which were posted by the
proponents.
> :Based on the scarcity of discussion that followed the RFD for the
> :rec.boats.daysailing proposal
>
> missed that as well, is the voting closed?
The voting period ended, the votes tallied, and the proposal lost. Only 125
votes were cast, 104 for, 21 against.
It should be noted that the number of NO votes was expected. There are always
a bunch of people who vote NO on the creation of any new group, for reasons that
only they could explain. For rec.boats.engins, I counted 12 votes from people
that I can't find any posting to rec.boats.*
But the NO votes doesn't really matter. We only got four votes past the
minimum for the case where nobody had voted no. The groups that I have seen
succeed, and then flourished afterwards, have had YES votes in the 300 and up
range.
So, what does everyone think about the rec.boats.daysailing proposal?
Rod McInnis