persona non grata - Boaters Ed.

Jim Donohue

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Aug 5, 2001, 10:05:40 PM8/5/01

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To my everlasting shame I have apparently been banned for a WWW list -
Boaters Ed. I join the illustrious company of Karl D. (which also makes me
sad as I thought he and I covered all possible sides of any argument) in
this exile. This is the first time since detention 45 years ago.

Les Hall, The chief tow truck driver in Boaters Ed. has decided that my
attitude is wrong and, as it is clear I won't change it he thinks I should
"haunt" elsewhere. As they do own the site they can do it but, as they are
also a public site on the net and claim authority on boaters education I
think it only fair that they receive suitable assistance.

The case under discussion is a wonderful one. Sea Tow, Les Hall's outfit.
Goes out to rescue a guy up on a beach near Nantucket. This guy is a member
of Sea Tow. He is also a new boater who is dumb enough to get his boat onto
a beach with surf. Bright, sunshine day but with at least a couple of feet
of search. Goes ashore (probably with a 3:1 scope and comes back to
find the boat beached. Calls his outift SeaTow. Sea Tow tells him that
beachings (hard or soft or whatever) are excluded from their contract but
that they will come and pull him off. He says come. They do. Pulls him
off in a very few minutes...Sea Tow then files claim with Insurance company
for $28,000. That's right 28 foot Whaler off the beach for $28,000.

Les Hall, the chief tow truck driver, of course insists this is all on the
up and up. And of course it is under salvage law. He however ignores the
requirement to deal with your customer ethically... but, then again, he is a
tow truck driver.

Les of course has troubles with truth the following shows a little of Les's
apparent inability to understand buoy data. ..I am publishing it here so
that those on the list will be able to read it after Les removes it from
boaters Ed...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Les is of course right on the legailities. Salvage law allows the claim
made. The foolish and their money are soon parted. Experienced skippers, who
also know about the salvage laws, don't allow their boats into the surf on a
lee beach.

This is similar to any number of places where people have lost their houses
etc. do to particular quirks in the law. If enough people get screwed we fix
it - ala the "Truth in lending" laws and similar. I personally doubt that
there are enough victims to cause the necessary groundswell to change this
law. You basically have to do a couple or three dumb things to end up in
this problem. It is unlikely that enough of the population will screw up to
force a correction.

Remember the underlying purpose of this law... to make it lucrative to
rescue valuable ships at risk at sea... is still operative and still
desirable. Its misapplication to simple pulls off the beach or (the worst I
know of) collecting boats off their moorings in a protected harbor well
after a storm will still lead to outlandish awards.

I find it particularly disturbing that SeaTow reads this law against its own
membership. Maybe we need a boaters union?

Note by the way that this is a question of legality. The ethics or morality
of the position is pretty close to absurd. This is the "well its only your
insurance company that pays" sort of absurdity that can be used to justify
virtually any insurable transaction. I should forget about the fact that you
deliberately backed into me at the light because the matter is between you
and my insurance company? I think not.

Les is very comfortable with this as he is ethically challenged.

As a for instance he published a block of data purported to be the buoy data
for the Nantucket sea buoy. Well it may well have been the actually sea buoy
data but it was edited for the purpose of supporting the claim... reasonably
outrageously actually. Les observes A large drop in pressure for example -
without observing that it happened the day before the incident. The
pressures for the 12 hours before and after the incident are reasonable
consistent and the rises in wave height are moderate. All supporting
Slanty's position - not that of the sea tow captain. Note all of these
readings are at a sea buoy well offshore and are almost certainly worse than
the actuals. Those of you observing this fiasco should also be ashamed. How
can Les get away with lying about his key data and nobody says a word? None
of you have the skill required to get buoy data? You sure you should be out
without your mothers? Here is the actual data by the

As published by Les -

way.Date.......time....wind..gust. .W/H............... baro
2001 07 03 09 250 2.0 2.0 1.0 MM MM 1024.4
2001 07 02 08 200 4.0 5.0 2.4 MM MM 1009.4
2001 07 02 07 230 3.0 4.0 2.3 MM MM 1008.4
2001 07 02 06 250 3.0 4.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.0
2001 07 02 05 240 4.0 5.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.0
2001 07 02 04 220 5.0 6.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.6
2001 07 02 03 240 10.0 12.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.9
2001 07 02 02 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 MM MM 1008.4
2001 07 02 01 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 MM MM 1008.3
2001 07 02 00 210 9.0 11.0 1.7 MM MM 1008.2
2001 07 01 23 200 8.0 9.0 1.8 MM MM 1008.1
2001 07 01 22 200 8.0 9.0 1.9 MM MM 1008.2
2001 07 01 21 200 8.0 8.0 1.8 MM MM 1008.3
2001 07 01 20 200 7.0 7.0 1.6 MM MM 1008.7
2001 07 01 19 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 MM MM 1009.5
2001 07 01 18 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 MM MM 1010.3
2001 07 01 17 200 7.0 7.0 1.4 MM MM 1011.1
2001 07 01 16 210 6.0 7.0 1.4 MM MM 1011.7
2001 07 01 15 210 7.0 8.0 1.5 MM MM 1011.8
2001 06 30 02 150 4.0 5.0 0.5 MM MM 1019.5

The real data...

YYYY MM DD hh WD WSPD GST WVHT DPD APD MWD BARO ATMP WTMP DEWP VIS PTDY TIDE
2001 07 02 02 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 7 MM MM 1008.4 21.2 16.0 20.3 MM +0.3 MM
2001 07 02 01 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 7 MM MM 1008.3 21.4 16.5 20.4 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 02 00 210 9.0 11.0 1.7 7 MM MM 1008.2 20.6 12.8 20.3 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 01 23 200 8.0 9.0 1.8 7 MM MM 1008.1 19.6 13.2 19.5 MM -0.6 MM
2001 07 01 22 200 8.0 9.0 1.9 7 MM MM 1008.2 19.1 14.1 19.0 MM -1.3 MM
2001 07 01 21 200 8.0 8.0 1.8 6 MM MM 1008.3 19.1 14.1 19.0 MM -2.0 MM
2001 07 01 20 200 7.0 7.0 1.6 7 MM MM 1008.7 18.8 12.9 18.7 MM -2.4 MM
2001 07 01 19 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 7 MM MM 1009.5 18.8 12.5 18.7 MM -2.2 MM
2001 07 01 18 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 7 MM MM 1010.3 19.1 12.5 19.0 MM -1.5 MM
2001 07 01 17 200 7.0 7.0 1.4 7 MM MM 1011.1 19.3 12.5 19.2 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 01 16 210 6.0 7.0 1.4 7 MM MM 1011.7 19.6 14.2 19.1 MM -0.0 MM
2001 07 01 15 210 7.0 8.0 1.5 7 MM MM 1011.8 20.3 14.4 19.4 MM -0.0 MM
2001 07 01 14 220 8.0 10.0 1.5 6 MM MM 1011.2 20.4 15.1 19.4 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 01 13 220 8.0 9.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.7 20.4 15.0 19.9 MM +0.5 MM
2001 07 01 12 210 8.0 9.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.7 19.9 12.2 19.8 MM +0.4 MM
2001 07 01 11 200 6.0 6.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.2 18.2 12.2 17.2 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 01 10 230 5.0 6.0 1.6 6 MM MM 1011.2 20.3 12.6 16.2 MM -0.5 MM
2001 07 01 09 230 6.0 7.0 1.5 6 MM MM 1011.3 18.0 12.0 17.9 MM -0.5 MM
2001 07 01 08 220 7.0 8.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.3 18.3 11.8 18.2 MM -0.6 MM
2001 07 01 07 220 8.0 8.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.7 18.8 11.8 18.5 MM -0.8 MM
2001 07 01 06 220 8.0 8.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.8 19.1 11.7 18.6 MM -0.8 MM
2001 07 01 05 220 8.0 10.0 1.2 6 MM MM 1011.9 20.6 11.6 19.4 MM -1.6 MM
2001 07 01 04 210 8.0 10.0 1.2 6 MM MM 1012.5 21.1 15.6 20.2 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 01 03 210 9.0 10.0 1.0 6 MM MM 1012.6 21.5 16.9 20.7 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 01 02 210 6.0 7.0 0.9 5 MM MM 1013.5 21.4 17.6 21.0 MM +0.8 MM
2001 07 01 01 210 7.0 8.0 0.9 5 MM MM 1012.7 21.7 17.8 21.3 MM +0.0 MM
2001 07 01 00 210 7.0 8.0 0.8 5 MM MM 1012.5 21.5 18.0 21.1 MM -0.4 MM
2001 06 30 23 200 7.0 8.0 0.9 4 MM MM 1012.7 21.9 18.0 21.1 MM -0.7 MM
2001 06 30 22 200 7.0 7.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1012.7 21.4 16.8 20.4 MM -1.5 MM
2001 06 30 21 200 7.0 8.0 0.9 4 MM MM 1012.9 21.1 14.2 20.0 MM -1.9 MM
2001 06 30 20 210 7.0 7.0 0.9 4 MM MM 1013.4 20.7 15.2 19.7 MM -1.6 MM
2001 06 30 19 210 7.0 8.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1014.2 20.7 15.7 19.7 MM -1.4 MM
2001 06 30 18 210 6.0 7.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1014.8 21.1 16.3 20.1 MM -0.9 MM
2001 06 30 17 220 7.0 8.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1015.0 21.2 16.5 20.2 MM -1.0 MM
2001 06 30 16 210 7.0 8.0 0.7 4 MM MM 1015.6 21.2 16.8 20.2 MM -0.9 MM
2001 06 30 15 220 7.0 8.0 0.7 4 MM MM 1015.7 21.4 17.6 20.6 MM -1.1 MM
2001 06 30 14 200 6.0 7.0 0.6 8 MM MM 1016.0 21.1 18.0 20.4 MM -0.6 MM
2001 06 30 13 200 6.0 7.0 0.6 9 MM MM 1016.5 20.7 18.0 19.8 MM -0.7 MM
2001 06 30 12 200 6.0 6.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1016.8 20.6 17.6 19.5 MM -0.3 MM
2001 06 30 11 200 6.0 6.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1016.6 20.3 17.1 19.5 MM -0.6 MM
2001 06 30 10 210 5.0 6.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.2 19.6 16.0 18.7 MM -0.4 MM
2001 06 30 09 200 5.0 5.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.1 19.0 12.3 18.0 MM -0.8 MM
2001 06 30 08 190 4.0 4.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.2 18.0 11.8 17.1 MM -1.5 MM
2001 06 30 07 190 4.0 4.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1017.6 17.9 11.8 16.9 MM -1.2 MM
2001 06 30 06 180 3.0 3.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.9 18.0 12.3 17.0 MM -1.1 MM
2001 06 30 05 160 3.0 3.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1018.7 18.3 15.1 16.7 MM -0.8 MM
2001 06 30 04 160 4.0 4.0 0.6 9 MM MM 1018.8 18.8 16.8 16.2 MM -0.6 MM
2001 06 30 03 160 4.0 5.0 0.6 9 MM MM 1019.0 19.1 17.6 15.4 MM -0.5 MM
2001 06 30 02 150 4.0 5.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1019.5 19.5 18.4 14.9 MM +0.0 MM
2001 06 30 01 150 5.0 5.0 0.5 4 MM MM 1019.4 MM 18.8 13.3 MM +0.3 MM
2001 06 30 00 140 5.0 6.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1019.5 19.1 18.8 14.7 MM -0.0 MM

Les has managed to leverage the position of VP of the tow truck company to
something close to guru status. I suggest you consider that he is still a
high level tow truck driver. When is the last time you consulted a tow truck
driver about your legal rights?

Jim Donohue - I use my name freely as Les gave it out, in violation of the
site privacy rules, the last time he was annoyed with me. I am easy to find
on any number of lists including rec.boats and rec.boats.cruising.

Come try an open forum and see how well your ideas do without "mother"
shepherding them into the commercially desired channels.

ps - I will post this in all sorts of threads for a while- or at least a
reference to it and will put it up on rec.boats or somewhere so I don't have
to keep making this long post as Les wipes it out.

Don't miss the point - Les removes all posts that indicate he is wrong in
any serious way. So there are never any competent counter opinions.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>

So lets be careful to keep the newbees away from this den of
mis-information.

You know Harry you ought to go over there and contribute. Bet $10 (to your
favorite charity) that you can't last a month.

Jim

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Aug 6, 2001, 7:49:39 AM8/6/01

to

Dave wrote:
>
> Greetings All,

>
> Having been a moderator at BoaterEd for better than a year now, it is my
> experience that as long as you act like you have some sense and act
> constructively the posts are not touched. The things that "we" do not
> tolerate are the name-calling and generally pissing contests that are so
> prevalent in other places. Some people ..including me, like it that way.
> If you do not...then by all means feel free to participate some where else
> in some other way.
>
> Dave T.
> Fishing Host

What he means is as long as you don't post anything that interferes with the
"advice" or sales opportunities of the hosts, and don't post anything that
upsets them any morning the coffee was bad, and so forth and so on... And
sometimes the "advice" on BoaterEd is *real* bad.

BoaterEd is little more than a commercial BBS whose owners try to practice
thought control and create an atmosphere in which they can sell their products
and services.

--
Harry Krause
------------

Stop that, son! You'll go blind -- I'm over here, Dad

Wayne Canino

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Aug 6, 2001, 8:53:09 AM8/6/01

to

Seen it for a while and that's my take too. It's a commercial enterprise in
BBS clothing.

-W

<hkr...@capu.net> wrote in message news:3B6E8453...@capu.net...

Giles Morris

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Aug 6, 2001, 9:24:37 AM8/6/01

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"Dave" <wil...@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote

> You got some sort of penis envy thing going on

and

> The things that "we" do not
> tolerate are the name-calling

Hmmm.

Giles Morris

hkr...@capu.net

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Aug 6, 2001, 9:39:19 AM8/6/01

to

I love the "we" part. "We" are in control of what you post.
Even more interesting are the folks who post there who complain about SPAM
here. Boater's Ed is nothing but SPAM.

--
Harry Krause
------------

Peace, in International terms, is a period of cheating in between two periods
of fighting

Rich Stern

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Aug 6, 2001, 11:46:38 AM8/6/01

to

> Pulls him
>off in a very few minutes...Sea Tow then files claim with Insurance company
>for $28,000. That's right 28 foot Whaler off the beach for $28,000.
>

This sounds pretty frivolous. I found this reference in a search for maritime
salvage law:

"For what concerns the amount of a salvage award, a court opinion from The
Blacwall is often cited:

Courts of admiralty usually consider the following circumstances as the main
ingredients in determining the amount of the award to be decreed for a salvage
service:
(1) The labor expended by the salvors in rendering the salvage service.
(2) The promptness, skill and energy displayed in rendering the service and
saving the property.
(3) The value of the property employed by the salvors in rendering the service,
and the dangers to which such property was exposed.
(4) The risk incurred by the salvors in securing the property from the
impending peril.
(5) The value of the property saved.
(6) The degree of danger from which the property was rescued."

Another reference I found:

"The formal requisites of an act of salvage, in a way similar to those required
for general average, are the following:
1) there must be a serious peril from which the vessel or property could not
have been rescued without the salvor's assistance;
2) the salvor's act must be voluntary (no legal or official duty to render
assistance);
3) the act must be successful in saving all or part of the property at risk."

In other words, a tow company performing service in the ordinary course of
business for an established customer whose property or life are not in danger
would not seem to warrant a claim for the value of the entire vessel.

Just silly b.s. Hope the insurance company plans to defend itself, as they
clearly should.

-- Rich Stern

Rich Stern

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Aug 6, 2001, 12:04:26 PM8/6/01

to

>BoaterEd is little more than a commercial BBS whose owners try to practice
>thought control and create an atmosphere in which they can sell their
>products
>and services.

Harry, your description is an accurate depiction of product marketing. I don't
see anything wrong with that. If the web site is a business, and the business
to promote the products of their sponsors, they *should* control the content.
It's not a public service.

-- Rich Stern

Jim Donohue

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Aug 6, 2001, 12:14:19 PM8/6/01

to

Actually I think the legality of the claim is on good grounds. The ethics
involved in blind siding your customer is a little different. The boat is a
new one and worth about 140000. So the salvage claim is 20% of real value.
It would however appear that the customer had options that he could
potentially have exercised if Sea Tow had indicated a salvage deal. In fact
the guy found out it was to be salvage only one his insurance company
notified him of the claim. He actually tipped the tow boat driver $100.

Sea Tow HQ is covering like mad - talking only of the legalities and
distorting the data from a nearby buoy and the weather forecast to make it
appear a more hazardous pull then the facts would otherwise indicate. They
have banned any discussion of the "fairness" of the salvage claim from the
Boater (Mis)Education site.

The message though is clear. Don't let anybody put a line on your boat
unless the T&Cs are agreed to or you are in bad enough shape that you really
need salvage.

Jim

"Rich Stern" <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010806114638...@ng-fo1.aol.com...

hkr...@capu.net

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Aug 6, 2001, 12:30:52 PM8/6/01

to

Which, of course, explains why a number of their posters who post here and
complain about the occasional "spam" here never bring it up on Boatered, eh?

A "problem" with the site is that its controllers deny their are controlling
and censoring. There are other problems with the site that I see no reason to
discuss.

--
Harry Krause
------------

Never play favoriteslong shots pay more if they win

Rich Stern

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Aug 6, 2001, 12:57:19 PM8/6/01

to

>The problem is not with what it is.
>
>--
>--
>Karl Denninger

OK, I give: What does that particular piece of cryptology mean?

-- Rich Stern

hkr...@capu.net

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Aug 6, 2001, 12:41:21 PM8/6/01

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Les.th...@rides.again wrote:
>
> Well what do you expect Jim?
>
> C'mon, pointing out that ungrounding a beached boat is not worth $28,000
> would mean that his franchise would make less money overall.
>
> After all, is not a BIG part of the inducment to take a SeaTow (or any other
> tow boat) franchise the very real opportunity to rape, er, make that kind of
> money?
>
> I read that thread. In fact, its stated as such - the Azimut case that went
> aground off Hillsboro was cited, with one of the SeaTow boats being lost as
> well - was pretty clearly cited by that operator as one of "ambulance
> chasing" - they were after a VERY hefty payoff and lost the bet.
>
> Trying to protect a franchise is a common thing. Where it becomes a
> problem is when opinions are censored to the point that misleading
> information is offered and both businesses and items are painted in a
> false light due to the censorship.
>
> While this kind of "newsspeak" may not be actionable, perhaps it should
> be. Perhaps, just perhaps, someone who purchased one of the products
> "touted" - and then found worthless or less than useful - ought to consider
> that the misleading advice offered due to that censorship might give them a
> claim.
>
> The outright misleading - and edited - buoy data is EXACTLY the kind of
> thing I'm talking about here.
>
> Oh, Jim, you do know that Les actually *publically* RETRACTED his position
> that got Karl in trouble on the EPIRB, right? AFTER, that is, ACR started
> selling an integrated GPS and EPIRB - both devices in one unit!
>
> That is, he took *Karl's position* - that a non-integrated system was less
> desirable (presumably due to the potential failures Karl identified) ONLY
> AFTER HIS AFFILIATE WAS ABLE TO SELL THE INTEGRATED SYSTEM, yet he blasted
> and in fact CENSORED Karl's position UP TO THAT POINT.
>
> Why? Well, you might consider that there was, in fact, ANOTHER manufacturer
> making integrated units when Karl took the position that he took......
>
> You might also note that the thread that apparently got Karl thrown off -
> the Interphase "forward scan" sonar deal - has some mud on it too. Les has
> recently SUPPORTED the unit and posted to Boatered that support (which they
> sell) - DESPITE the fact that his position on Karl's point of view for the
> unit was that he HAD TO OWN ONE to have a valid opinion to express on the
> forum - and Les has ADMITTED that he has NEVER ACTUALLY USED ONE, say much
> less OWN one.
>
> Les has never honored that very same restriction.
>
> Ethically challenged? You're being too kind.
>
> Hypocrite is the "nicest" word I can come up with.
>
> Perhaps you need to find Karl and see if a posse' can be put together to
> show up at boat shows with T-shirts exposing this stuff. Perhaps the guy
> who got RAPED by SeaTow would allow you to put an appropriate graphic on
> a T-shirt - for wearing at boat-shows, of course - depicting what he
> thinks of them. Perhaps a few political cartoons - carictures - of the
> SeaTow "president" (have you seen this guy's picture? You could have a
> field day with it in political cartoon mode) and Les on some T-shirts
> would be a good thing? Perhaps some Boatered *extracts* (like that Buoy
> daya) on those shirts would be a GOOD THING.
>
> After all, boat show season IS coming up, isn't it?
>
> Widespread disseminiation of the TRUTH is what "Boatered" claims to be
> about, is it not?
>

Sounds like some of the folks running Boatered are...whores.

--
Harry Krause
------------

Teddy Bear Usage Instructions (6): If on second hug, Teddy squeals and licks
you ear, you have picked up the dog

Dave

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Aug 6, 2001, 12:48:10 PM8/6/01

to

Greetings All,

This is a Quote from Jim:

> "The message though is clear. Don't let anybody put a line on your boat
> unless the T&Cs are agreed to or you are in bad enough shape that you
really
> need salvage."

You have hit the nail directly on the head. This is the point of the entire
thread and the reason that we took a large amount of time with it.

Most excellent!

Salvage Law is a very important issue, especially if you are a new boater
with a large investment. I would bet that most boaters have never even
given serious thought about the Marine Salvage Laws. This thread is an in
depth look at Marine Salvage Laws and how they work. 280 posts and 3300
reads. It would be my bet that more than one person walked away from this
discussion with information that can and will be used should the need arise.

Dave T.

Wayne Canino

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Aug 6, 2001, 1:11:18 PM8/6/01

to

Ya Dave, he got fucked up the ass but it's all "OK" because everyone learned
something from it?

Glad we cleared THAT up.

-W

Dave <wil...@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:oQzb7.138$V43....@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...

Rich Stern

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Aug 6, 2001, 1:15:33 PM8/6/01

to

>Which, of course, explains why a number of their posters who post here and
>complain about the occasional "spam" here never bring it up on Boatered, eh?
>

It's a commercial endeavor and serve's its own, highly processed spam.

>A "problem" with the site is that its controllers deny their are controlling
>and censoring.

Kinda silly. The site is self-described as moderated. They have rules
outlining acceptable posting behavior, which they apparently enforce, since a
couple of people appear to be outcast. How can they have moderators, banned
users and still deny control and censorship?

-- Rich Stern

Dave

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Aug 6, 2001, 1:14:54 PM8/6/01

to

Greetings,
Maybe we just kept you or your friend or your friends, friend from getting
............................one day. I can live with that.

Have a Nice Day!

;)

Dave T.
Fishing Host
www.BoaterEd.com

"Wayne Canino" <b17of...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:WcAb7.25122$bm5.9...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...

Wayne Canino

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Aug 6, 2001, 1:21:46 PM8/6/01

to

Considering Les's outfit *did* the _ _ _ _ ing - what does THAT say about
it?
People aren't stupid.

-W

Dave <wil...@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:tdAb7.162$V43....@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...

Dave

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Aug 6, 2001, 1:34:49 PM8/6/01

to

Greetings,
The only position that I have taken, is that the bill, as I understand it,
is acceptable under the laws as I understand them. I am sure that the
lawyers from the insurance company will be the ones to decide where or not
the bill is correct as stands. IMHO it is between the owner, the insurance
company and the towing company.

The real issue that I see, is the laws of Maritime Salvage and how they work
in the real world. If you are interested in a discussion on how they work,
look for yourself. www.boatered.com
I think people are smart enough to make up their own minds.

Dave T.
Fishing Host
BoaterEd.com

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Aug 6, 2001, 3:10:48 PM8/6/01

to

Karl Denninger wrote:
>
> We need a law that all SeaTow boats must hoist the Jolly Roger BEFORE
> providing any "non covered" service.
>
> Failure to display the proper signal should negate any future attempt to
> make a claim for salvage. After all, if you're going to act like a pirate
> you should declare yourself as one, right?
>
> A far more enforcable (and very effective) change would be to change the
> law so that commencing salvage operations without the skippers documented
> and PROVEN consent *TO SALVAGE* voids the claim and subjects the claimant
> to punitive damages (for fraud) and prosecution for attempted theft by
> conversion.
>
> The only allowable defense would be that communication was impossible (not
> difficult, impossible) due to abandonment or other serious exigent
> circumstances.
>
> A claiming salvor who is in communication with the vessel's master BY CELL
> PHONE on the beach (since the master called him that way originally) would
> obviously not be able to meet that burden unless he or she could produce
> either a tape of the call agreeing to salvage or a signed agreement for
> same.
>
> Even without a change in the law, there may still be recourse available to
> this guy.
>
> There is a potential issue here of attempting to "steer" business to
> yourself under false and misleading pretense; specifically, selling
> "memberships" for services to people that will generate calls for UNRELATED
> business transactions that are then negotiated under duress - or, as appears
> to potentially be case here, that were not actually negotiated at all!
>
> There does appear to be a valid question in this situation as to whether the
> raped skipper actually gave consent to the line being affixed - he IS
> affirmatively claiming he was not told that this was a salvage operation.
>
> If he was misled to believe that this was a TOWING situation, even if it
> was based on a per-foot charge (for example, $100/foot as some others have
> posited) and NOT covered by the membership, while the SeaTow operator has
> a claim for salvage he has an ofsetting claim for fraud - the latter carrying
> punitive damages that could not only negate the salvage claim but also put the
> SeaTow pirate out of business.
>
> This "SeaTow Member" needs to talk to an attorney skilled in consumer fraud
> and related legal issues. There might be something here, and this apparently
> happens often enough that a class action could be called for.
>
> Certainly, there is enough money on the table here to make it worthwhile for
> a landshark to take this one on.
>
> Spend a couple hundred bucks on a consultation with a good lawyer. I ain't
> one, but this non-lawyer smells blood in the water, and me thinks the color
> of the blood is yellow.
>
> Wouldn't that be deliciously tasty desserts to watch from the sidelines if
> indeed such a case can be brought to bear?
>
> I think so.
>

Damn, I hate it when I agree with Karl.

Harry.

Skipper

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 3:43:49 PM8/6/01

to

Re: persona non grata - Boaters Ed.

"Dave" wrote:

> Jim Donohue wrote:

>> To my everlasting shame I have apparently been banned for a WWW list -
>> Boaters Ed. I join the illustrious company of Karl D. (which also makes
>> me sad as I thought he and I covered all possible sides of any argument) in
>> this exile. This is the first time since detention 45 years ago.

>> Les Hall, The chief tow truck driver in Boaters Ed. has decided that my
>> attitude is wrong and, as it is clear I won't change it he thinks I should
>> "haunt" elsewhere. As they do own the site they can do it but, as they are
>> also a public site on the net and claim authority on boaters education I
>> think it only fair that they receive suitable assistance.

> Greetings All,

> You know Jim, I personally have nothing against you but the name-calling

> does tend to show your true colors. You know very little...

> Having been a moderator at BoaterEd for better than a year now, it is my
> experience that as long as you act like you have some sense and act

> constructively the posts are not touched. ... Some people ..including me,

> like it that way. If you do not...then by all means feel free to participate
> some where else in some other way.

> Dave T.
> Fishing Host
> BoaterEd.com

Jim Donohue has provided far more knowledgeable and vastly more useful
information to boaters than can ever be found at BoaterEd, Dave.
BoaterEd is a site dedicated to promoting the products of its creators
and not to promoting open discussion and education of boaters. BoaterEd
is a spawning ground for misinformation and a launch pad for
infomercials as has been documented many times. It is also a hiding
place for panty-waisted scoundrels like David Pascoe and yourself. I am
pleased that your dot com will no longer be able to take advantage of
Mr. Donohue's expertise and the air of respectability that his
participation provides. Just imagine, a website supposedly dedicated to
"boater education" founded by a tow truck driver by the name of Less
Haul. It's just too funny.

BTW, for someone who claims to know so much, "some where", in the
context used above, is just one word, Dave. No charge for the BoaterEd
Fishing Host assistance.

As a side note, I do wonder what an experienced and knowledgeable boater
like Jim Donohue was doing in a pit like BoaterEd.com. That's a place
for goody two-shoes no-nothings like...well like Fussel...or that
Dingleberry character. I would also expect to find Big Tuna Bill there
as the fishing moderator...that is, when they let him out on parole.

--
Skipper

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 5:41:49 PM8/6/01

to

>BoaterEd
>is a spawning ground for misinformation and a launch pad for
>infomercials as has been documented many times. It is also a hiding
>place for panty-waisted scoundrels like David Pascoe and yourself

The irony here is thick.

A group of individuals who routinely foul the water of this NG, ranting and
raving over the content and control of a commercial web site with moderated
forums.

How do you guys manage to not laugh at yourselves when you look in the mirror?

-- Rich Stern

Wayne Canino

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 6:07:39 PM8/6/01

to

Easy - all we have to do is look at your site.

-W

Rich Stern <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010806174149.17844.00003424@mb-

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 6:25:50 PM8/6/01

to

Rich has a site? I need a laugh...where is it?

--
Harry Krause
------------

Support the right to arm bears!

Wayne Canino

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 6:34:49 PM8/6/01

to

No no.... I meant the site he was defending and moderates on.

-W

<hkr...@capu.net> wrote in message news:3B6F196E...@capu.net...

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 6:42:29 PM8/6/01

to

Ahh. I get it (finally). I had no idea Rich was a moderator there. I haven't
looked at that site in months, after concluding it was run by control freaks
who wanted to sell their own merchandise and services to a captured audience.
Lots of really bad advice there at that time and, of course, if you disagreed
with one of the proprietors, your posts were deleted and, in some cases, so
were you.

If you're a fan of the kinds of purges performed under Stalin, I suppose it's
a kewl site.

Harry Krause
------------

I brake for hallucinations

Jim Donohue

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 6:43:56 PM8/6/01

to

Hey Dave - Let see if you really approve of how Les operated on this thread.
No ducking now as you have held yourself out to be an honorable man and not
in any way under Les's control:

Let's see in his post of 8/3/2001 at 16:14:50 Les writes:

The above table shows the wind speed increasing to 11 m/s or 24.6 MPH. Note
how the barometer drops from 1119.5 millibars to the 1008 millibars range -
guess when? Right when they said it would and two hours after the
ungrounding. Tropical Storm Barry was at 1008 millibars this morning. It
also shows the seas building to 2.4 meters or nearly 8'

Les Hall, ATC Forum Host

referring to the following table which was in his prior post:

Date......time....wind..gust..W/H...............baro

2001 07 03 09 250 2.0 2.0 1.0 MM MM 1024.4
2001 07 02 08 200 4.0 5.0 2.4 MM MM 1009.4
2001 07 02 07 230 3.0 4.0 2.3 MM MM 1008.4
2001 07 02 06 250 3.0 4.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.0
2001 07 02 05 240 4.0 5.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.0
2001 07 02 04 220 5.0 6.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.6
2001 07 02 03 240 10.0 12.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.9
2001 07 02 02 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 MM MM 1008.4
2001 07 02 01 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 MM MM 1008.3
2001 07 02 00 210 9.0 11.0 1.7 MM MM 1008.2
2001 07 01 23 200 8.0 9.0 1.8 MM MM 1008.1
2001 07 01 22 200 8.0 9.0 1.9 MM MM 1008.2
2001 07 01 21 200 8.0 8.0 1.8 MM MM 1008.3
2001 07 01 20 200 7.0 7.0 1.6 MM MM 1008.7
2001 07 01 19 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 MM MM 1009.5
2001 07 01 18 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 MM MM 1010.3
2001 07 01 17 200 7.0 7.0 1.4 MM MM 1011.1
2001 07 01 16 210 6.0 7.0 1.4 MM MM 1011.7
2001 07 01 15 210 7.0 8.0 1.5 MM MM 1011.8
2001 06 30 02 150 4.0 5.0 0.5 MM MM 1019.5

Now what is wrong with all this... well where is the change from 1119.5
millibars to 1008. range that Les finds so striking? Well Let's presume that
Les is merely a crummy typist and really meant 1019.5 to 1008 still a
substantial change - Ahh but there is still something a little weird about
the data - let's look at the date and time on the last two entries.. son of
a gun.. The second last entry is 7/1/2001 1500 UTC. The last entry is
6/30/2001 0200 UTC. Now as an exercise can the student discover the period
of time seperating those two entries? A mere 37 hours. So Les says this
occured two hours after the grounding or roughly 00 on July 2. So Les is
comparing a barometer almost two days old to a current one and finding that
some event was predicted based on the same. Mind boggling.

Did he agreed that he modified the data - sure in his message of 8/6/2001
at 8:18:22 he says -

If anyone would like to review the buoy data, it is here:
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/Maps/Northeast.shtml You will find that the data I
posted matches that data exactly. All I did is "cut and paste" and remove
the extra stuff like dew points and water temperature.

If anyone is concerned about their post being removed, I stated, on Friday,
that any addtional posts discussing the "fairness" of the claim would be
deleted. That has been discussed at length and is contrary to what we are
attempting to accomplish here. If anyone has any issues with me or the data
that I posted, I invite them to pick up the phone and call me, like a man
and not some wimpy weasel hiding behind a ficticious user name - here's even
a toll free number, 1 800 4SEATOW.

Again, the object of this discussion is to help educate the boating public
so that everyone can get a little understanding of the "laws of the sea" and
how they may be affected by them.

Les Hall, ATC Forum Host

Yeah right removed the extra stuff and 37 hours of data. Note by the way
the lack of name calling.

And note that this is all back up stuff trying to prove the Sea Tow Captain
at least rationale in his reading of the situation.

Come on Dave own up. Les cooks the data to support his position. I really
don't think you can get caught much more red handed.

And actually at the period of the incident pressure was slowing rising -
generally an indication of the weather getting better.

Jim

"Dave" <wil...@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:oQzb7.138$V43....@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...

>

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 6:52:37 PM8/6/01

to

Jim Donohue wrote:
>
> Hey Dave - Let see if you really approve of how Les operated on this thread.
> No ducking now as you have held yourself out to be an honorable man and not
> in any way under Les's control:
>
> Let's see in his post of 8/3/2001 at 16:14:50 Les writes:
>
> The above table shows the wind speed increasing to 11 m/s or 24.6 MPH. Note
> how the barometer drops from 1119.5 millibars to the 1008 millibars range -
> guess when? Right when they said it would and two hours after the
> ungrounding. Tropical Storm Barry was at 1008 millibars this morning. It
> also shows the seas building to 2.4 meters or nearly 8'
>
> Les Hall, ATC Forum Host
>
> referring to the following table which was in his prior post:
>
> Date......time....wind..gust..W/H...............baro
>
> 2001 07 03 09 250 2.0 2.0 1.0 MM MM 1024.4
> 2001 07 02 08 200 4.0 5.0 2.4 MM MM 1009.4
> 2001 07 02 07 230 3.0 4.0 2.3 MM MM 1008.4

Perhaps we should award Les, Sea Tow and Boater Ed, the Order of the Jolly
Roger...

--
Harry Krause
------------

Helicopter: 25,000 parts flying in close formation

Wayne Canino

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 6:58:54 PM8/6/01

to

My bad - I think I crossed up Rich and Dave. too Many threads so little
time.

-W

<hkr...@capu.net> wrote in message news:3B6F1D55...@capu.net...

Wayne Canino

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 7:02:41 PM8/6/01

to

The one that Les killed me with over there was the "we have to go by the
law".
Loosly translated: Our profession is obligated to PORK you to the fullest
extent the law will allow. COD FORBID we treat you fairly...

-W

Jim Donohue <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message
news:tmu7jij...@corp.supernews.com...

K. Smith

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 7:53:42 PM8/6/01

Rich Stern was a flamin' numbnutz here. Figures he'd be a moderator on
that lame site.

--
Skipper

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 10:28:29 PM8/6/01

to

>My bad - I think I crossed up Rich and Dave. too Many threads so little
>time.
>
>-W

Correct. I am not associated with BoaterEd.com. I'd only visited once prior to
today's controversy. I spent some time there today. I find the content no
more or less good than the on-topic content here. There are plenty of
legitimate experts there, worth hearing from.

I keenly understand the need to maintain control over a forum whose purpose is
to promote sponsor interests. I also understand how easy it is to take that
one step further into arbitrary censorship.

I am amused that the schoolyard bullies here, who won't be tolerated there, are
among the harshest critics of the site. Frustrated that they can't ply their
trade in trolling. Further frustrated that their audience for trolling is
reduced by the many people who defected from this NG.

Harry disdains the Stalin-like quality of control excercised over there, while
his own, proudly adopted and decidedly uncivil behavior in this forum is
somehow justified.

Skipper belittles BoaterEd contributors, whose crimes (in his mind) seem to be
their unwillingness to engage him in a professional-to-amatuer debate in this
forum, where he has repeatedly proven that he will not remain civil or rational
in his quest to somehow embarrass them.

It's just ironic. That's all.

As for the towing controversy, sounds to me like the Sea Tow operator is taking
a bit too much license with the circumstances, trying to gain salvage
compensation in somewhat ordinary service conditions. But am I surprised that
Les is defending him? No! It's a commercial enterprise, with a heavy
obligation to profit, and loyalty to truth only as conscience dictates. In
business, conscience is a very selective trait.

-- Rich Stern

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 10:41:01 PM8/6/01

to

>Rich Stern was a flamin' numbnutz here. Figures he'd be a moderator on
>that lame site.
>
>--
>Skipper

Nobly spoken, Skipper.

I do appreciate you writing that. I was feeling slightly guilty about what I
wrote in my last post about you. I was thinking maybe I had been too harsh.

Thanks for underscoring the point I was trying to make.

Henceforth, my new nickname for you will be "Pavlov" (in honor of the dog, not
the scientist).

-- Rich Stern

Skipper

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 10:46:35 PM8/6/01

to

Rich Stern wrote:

>> Rich Stern was a flamin' numbnutz here. Figures he'd be a moderator on
>> that lame site.

> Nobly spoken, Skipper.

> I do appreciate you writing that. I was feeling slightly guilty about what I
> wrote in my last post about you. I was thinking maybe I had been too harsh.

> Thanks for underscoring the point I was trying to make.

> Henceforth, my new nickname for you will be "Pavlov" (in honor of the dog,
> not the scientist).

And thank you for proving my aim was not faulty.

--
Skipper

Butch Ammon

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:00:38 PM8/6/01

to

Hey Rich,

I though *I* was the only one getting slammed by Skipper!

Butch Ammon
My web page:
http://members.aol.com/ammonc/butch.html

Kevin in San Diego

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:02:05 PM8/6/01

to

Actually the site is not a sham. I cant speak for sea tow but my experiences
with parts and help on installation was pleasant. I ordered parts at great
prices, got help with them and was allowed to return some of the parts I
didnt use, no questions asked. I have made thousands of dollars worth of
purchases from them. Contrary to popular belief I was even told by them to
purchase a few products locally and not from them in order to save me money.
Just because you are mad that you can't voice your opinion and displeasure
doesn't mean they are a sham. I would edit you out of my board if I had one
and you were attacking me.
It was kind of silly of you to waste your time posting there, its kinda like
marching into the Whitehouse yelling, "Capitolist pigs." It just made them
rally together against you. I think you actually may have helped them become
stronger and add a few members. The whole Sea Tow thread probably added
another few dozen members alone.
<vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3B6F44E4...@verizon.net...

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:21:08 PM8/6/01

to

>Hey Rich,
>
>I though *I* was the only one getting slammed by Skipper!
>
>Butch Ammon

Butch, there's plenty enough drool left in old Pavlov to go 'round.

-- Rich Stern

Jim Donohue

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:20:55 PM8/6/01

to

Actually I originated this thread with the deliberate intent to embarass the
"Ask the Captain" forum of the Boater Ed. site. That particualar site, is,
I believe run by a guy who is a control freak and not very good at the truth
of this particular art.

He is not, in any sense a moderator. He is in fact a self promotor who does
not let facts, truth or ethics get in his way. He really believes he is
expert even when he is not even close. With the exception of the few things
dealing directly with Sea Tow he has no particular commercial bias - other
than some that tend to indicate he does not know much about equipment.

He is however opinionated to the point of being unwilling to accept other
opinion even if it happens to be correct. Ohh I suppose if you hunker up
careful and suggest he reconsider his opinion in light of... He might think
about it.. But screw that.

I think it is useful to boaters and to knowledge in general to pull these
guys from their pedestal. If they want to give advice to the unwashed
public, be it boaters or others, those of us with the skills to know whether
the correct product is being delivered should step up and keep the system
honest.

I, by the way, after significant exposure believe the input is similar to
this list except when Les pontificates - then we have the opinionated and
likely wrong blocking all of the corrective opinion that would occur here or
in any reasonably moderated net.

Maybe you think it is OK for Les to propogate less than fact as he sees it.
I don't. If he wants to run a private forum espousing the particular
strange views he likes - I support his right to do so. If he wants to sell
it as Boaters Ed. - nah I don't think so.

I will now mount Rocinante and ride away.

Jim

"Rich Stern" <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010806222829...@mb-fc.aol.com...

Dave

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:22:14 PM8/6/01

to

Greetings All,
Jim, I started to look at the data today and stopped, why.....Because I
don't know that I really care enough to spend the time and energy to find
out. Consider it laziness if you like.

I am afraid you are missing the forest for the trees. The value in the
thread is not weather or not any one person got screwed and I might add that
as far as I know SeaTow has nothing to do with BoaterEd other than that's
where Les works. Why was the thread not deleted right off the bat? Because
it was a valuable opportunity to educate less experienced boaters about
Marine Salvage laws how they work in the real day to day world. It would be
my guess that if we really went and looked at all the towing companies, they
would all have about the same incident rate. If through this long drawn out
discussion, we make one boater that reads this question weather or not
Salvage Law applies, then we have accomplished something worthwhile and I
can live with that.

To all the regular folks that read this, count the number of relies in this
thread...now read each and every one. What do think the signal to noise
ratio is? I bet that it is high.

Dave T.
Fishing Forum Host
BoaterEd.com

"Jim Donohue" <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message
news:tmu7jij...@corp.supernews.com...

Dave

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:29:08 PM8/6/01

to

Greetings All,
Jim, I started to look at the data today and stopped, why.....Because I
don't know that I really care enough to spend the time and energy to find
out. Consider it laziness if you like.

I am afraid you are missing the forest for the trees. The value in the
thread is not weather or not any one person got screwed and I might add that
as far as I know SeaTow has nothing to do with BoaterEd other than that's
where Les works. Why was the thread not deleted right off the bat? Because
it was a valuable opportunity to educate less experienced boaters about
Marine Salvage laws how they work in the real day to day world. It would be
my guess that if we really went and looked at all the towing companies, they
would all have about the same incident rate. If through this long drawn out
discussion, we make one boater that reads this question weather or not
Salvage Law applies, then we have accomplished something worthwhile and I
can live with that.

To all the regular folks that read this, count the number of relies in this
thread...now read each and every one. What do think the signal to noise
ratio is? I bet that it is high.

Dave T.
Fishing Forum Host
BoaterEd.com

"Jim Donohue" <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message
news:tmu7jij...@corp.supernews.com...

Skipper

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:42:19 PM8/6/01

to

Dave wrote:

> Greetings All,
> Jim, I started to look at the data today and stopped, why.....Because I
> don't know that I really care enough to spend the time and energy to find
> out. Consider it laziness if you like.

Laziness? More likely EVASION?

> I am afraid you are missing the forest for the trees. The value in the

> thread is not weather or not any one person got screwed...

> To all the regular folks that read this, count the number of relies in this
> thread...now read each and every one. What do think the signal to noise
> ratio is? I bet that it is high.

> Dave T.
> Fishing Forum Host
> BoaterEd.com

And just HOW did YOU respond to the specific points Jim illustrated?
With noise, tap dancing and misdirection. Both you and Less evaded the
questions raised. You failed miserably in this open forum.

--
Skipper

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 6, 2001, 11:59:39 PM8/6/01

to

>If he wants to run a private forum espousing the particular
>strange views he likes - I support his right to do so. If he wants to sell
>it as Boaters Ed. - nah I don't think so.

Why?

BoatUS isn't really the U.S. government's boating outlet, is it?

American Airlines isn't a national airline, is it?

U.S. Steel isn't state run, is it?

Best Buy isn't truly that in every case, is it?

PetSmart isn't always, is it?

If you drive a Volvo off a 100 foot elevated highway, you'll be fine, won't
you?

It's not a newsgroup or a .org based forum. It's a business. Regardless of
what it sells or how it sells it, you should expect fundamentally self-serving
behavior.

I'd also say that the credentials of the moderators are substantial, regardless
of particular quirks. Perhaps their long experience gives them a license to be
quirky and opinionated.

-- Rich Stern

Bill Stockstill

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 8:15:34 AM8/7/01

to

"Skipper" <Ski...@kscable.com> wrote in message
news:3B6EF305...@kscable.com...
> Re: persona non grata - Boaters Ed.

>Just imagine, a website supposedly dedicated to
> "boater education" founded by a tow truck driver by the name of Less
> Haul. It's just too funny.

LMAO Bill

Bill Stockstill

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 8:23:43 AM8/7/01

to

You may want to give Boat/US a try. They seem to be more conscience
orientated. They recently had an article educating their readers of their
membership magazine the difference of a salvage versus tow and on the
necessity of clarifying if an operation is going to be a salvage or tow
BEFORE any action is taken by a tow operator.

"Rich Stern" <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010806222829...@mb-fc.aol.com...

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 8:29:45 AM8/7/01

to

Rich Stern wrote:

>
> I keenly understand the need to maintain control over a forum whose purpose is
> to promote sponsor interests. I also understand how easy it is to take that
> one step further into arbitrary censorship.
>
> I am amused that the schoolyard bullies here, who won't be tolerated there, are
> among the harshest critics of the site. Frustrated that they can't ply their
> trade in trolling. Further frustrated that their audience for trolling is
> reduced by the many people who defected from this NG.
>

It's wonderful that you stopped off here to dump your trash on your way to
wherever it is you hang these days, Rich. As usual, the newsgroup benefits
greatly from the contents of your spleen and, of course, your dimwitted
psychological profiling.

I spent a few days reading posts on the site in question. I found the place
dull, full of "me-too-ers" and self-congratulators and folks going that extra
mile so as not to offend the "sponsors" who use the site as a sales tool. The
place is stifling.

As for the "experts" you claim who frequent that site, well...after reading
through about 20 different headers and their contents over there on various
aspects of boating electronics, I concluded that most of them didn't know
scheiss from shine-ola, but, by gummy, they sho' did like whatever Les was
selling. About every fifth post was an apology to Les for some imaginary
offense.

What's *your* area of expertise, Rich, other than posting snotty comments in
here?

Paul Schilter

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 7:58:31 AM8/7/01

to

Wayne,
What site?
Paul

"Wayne Canino" <b17of...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LyEb7.25352$bm5.9...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...

> Easy - all we have to do is look at your site.
>
> -W
>

> Rich Stern <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message

Wayne Canino

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 9:16:46 AM8/7/01

to

Keep reading - it was an error on my part.

-W

Paul Schilter <psch...@ford.com> wrote in message
news:9kol4p$3f...@eccws12.dearborn.ford.com...

JFG

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 9:45:54 AM8/7/01

to

Rich Stern observed: >
> A group of individuals who routinely foul the water of this NG, ranting
and
> raving over the content and control of a commercial web site with
moderated
> forums.
>

LOL, your observation was right on the money.

Since I have bored with the repetitive and never ending trolling and bashing
that goes on in rec.boats, I have not been reading this NG for the past few
months. I am not sure if much has changed in the past few months, but from
the but from the 500 headers that I downloaded this morning, it appears that
the only change is that this NG no longer has some of the expert and
professional contributors that used to provide good, solid and on topic
information. While we may wish for an open non moderated group to discuss
mutual interests, all anyone needs to do is read a weeks worth of this NG's
posts and they will quickly see the benefit of a moderated group. Even an
openly commercial moderated group such as www.boatersed.com seems to be able
to provide a much better forum for discussing recreational boating topics
than rec.boats. If rec.boats posts were able to stay on topic or was able
to increase the signal to noise ratio, there would be no reason for a
commercial moderated NG or forum to exist. As long as the signal to noise
ratio remains high, www.boatersed.com will continue to grow.

This post did interest me enough to go visit www.boatersed.com and see
there "spawning ground for misinformation." In the past, I have not been
pleased with the topics or format of web based forums, but I was very
surprised with the new layout of boaters ed. What I saw was a great forum
for discussing boats and boating related issues. This thread of Salvage vs.
Towing was extremely educational for myself and many others. While Les was
quick to defend SEATOWS position, he also allowed others to post who felt
strongly that the SEATOW operator was a crook and should be hung from the
nearest yardarm.

It appeared to me that Les only stepped in and started to "edit" or delete
posts when the topic had been beat to death and had degraded to simple name
calling.

Before anyone makes a decision about the benefits of a moderated vs. "open"
forum I would recommend they read this thread at Boaters Ed.

http://www.boatered.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16420&FORUM_ID=28&CAT_ID=2&Topic_
Title=WARNING%3A+SEATOW&Forum_Title=Rules+of+the+Road%2C+Safe+Boating

Jim

ps - I have no interest in boaters ed or any other web based forum and am
making my comments about boaters ed after reading this one thread, but if
this thread is representative of the quality of discussions at boaters ed
they will continue to grow.

--

"Rich Stern" <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010806174149...@mb-md.aol.com...
> >BoaterEd
> >is a spawning ground for misinformation and a launch pad for
> >infomercials as has been documented many times. It is also a hiding
> >place for panty-waisted scoundrels like David Pascoe and yourself
>
> The irony here is thick.
>
> A group of individuals who routinely foul the water of this NG, ranting
and
> raving over the content and control of a commercial web site with
moderated
> forums.

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 10:07:13 AM8/7/01

to

JFG wrote:
>
> Rich Stern observed: >
> > A group of individuals who routinely foul the water of this NG, ranting
> and
> > raving over the content and control of a commercial web site with
> moderated
> > forums.
> >
>
> LOL, your observation was right on the money.
>
> Since I have bored with the repetitive and never ending trolling and bashing
> that goes on in rec.boats, I have not been reading this NG for the past few
> months. I am not sure if much has changed in the past few months, but from
> the but from the 500 headers that I downloaded this morning, it appears that
> the only change is that this NG no longer has some of the expert and
> professional contributors that used to provide good, solid and on topic
> information.

Ahh...the word is out...you fellas have an email alert system?

--
Harry Krause
------------

Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards

Kevin in San Diego

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 10:23:13 AM8/7/01

to

Harry wrote,

"About every fifth post was an apology to Les for some imaginary
offense. "

I have to admit this gave me a chuckle.

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 10:28:40 AM8/7/01

to

Tell you the truth, if I ever saw any of these Boater-Uneducated SeaTow Sharks
anywhere near my boats, I'd open fire with my imaginary deck cannon. If you
need a tow, and you are willing to pay a reasonable, albeit high, fee for
service, that's fine. But to turn a tow job into a blow job...well, they
should have to post consumer warnings.

--
Harry Krause
------------

In 1999, worldwide Linux revenues totaled just $63 million,
less than Microsoft's revenues on its USB mice products alone.

Keith

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 11:08:31 AM8/7/01

to

...and by responding you give credence to his position. Best to let it
lie.

Dave wrote:
>
> Greetings All,
> You know Jim, I personally have nothing against you but the name-calling
> does tend to show your true colors. You know very little about me but you
> insist on calling me names. You got some sort of penis envy thing going on
> or what? I read your post like I read any other. I came to rec.boats
> specifically because of a post that you made at BoaterEd to come read your
> thoughts here. So I did. I did not say one thing good or bad about your
> post, I simply posted a link so your readers could see for themselves
> instead of relying on your "condensed" version of what was going on. I
> personally think people are smart enough to read and make up their own minds
> in the world without the need for interpretation.
>
> Having been a moderator at BoaterEd for better than a year now, it is my
> experience that as long as you act like you have some sense and act
> constructively the posts are not touched. The things that "we" do not
> tolerate are the name-calling and generally pissing contests that are so
> prevalent in other places. Some people ..including me, like it that way.
> If you do not...then by all means feel free to participate some where else
> in some other way.
>
> Dave T.
> Fishing Host

> BoaterEd.com
>
> "Jim Donohue" <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message

> news:tmrv1bs...@corp.supernews.com...

> > To my everlasting shame I have apparently been banned for a WWW list -
> > Boaters Ed. I join the illustrious company of Karl D. (which also makes
> me
> > sad as I thought he and I covered all possible sides of any argument) in
> > this exile. This is the first time since detention 45 years ago.
> >

> > Les Hall, The chief tow truck driver in Boaters Ed. has decided that my
> > attitude is wrong and, as it is clear I won't change it he thinks I should
> > "haunt" elsewhere. As they do own the site they can do it but, as they
> are
> > also a public site on the net and claim authority on boaters education I
> > think it only fair that they receive suitable assistance.
> >
> > The case under discussion is a wonderful one. Sea Tow, Les Hall's outfit.
> > Goes out to rescue a guy up on a beach near Nantucket. This guy is a
> member
> > of Sea Tow. He is also a new boater who is dumb enough to get his boat
> onto
> > a beach with surf. Bright, sunshine day but with at least a couple of
> feet
> > of search. Goes ashore (probably with a 3:1 scope and comes back to
> > find the boat beached. Calls his outift SeaTow. Sea Tow tells him that
> > beachings (hard or soft or whatever) are excluded from their contract but
> > that they will come and pull him off. He says come. They do. Pulls him
> > off in a very few minutes...Sea Tow then files claim with Insurance
> company
> > for $28,000. That's right 28 foot Whaler off the beach for $28,000.
> >
> > Les Hall, the chief tow truck driver, of course insists this is all on the
> > up and up. And of course it is under salvage law. He however ignores the
> > requirement to deal with your customer ethically... but, then again, he is
> a
> > tow truck driver.
> >
> > Les of course has troubles with truth the following shows a little of
> Les's
> > apparent inability to understand buoy data. ..I am publishing it here so
> > that those on the list will be able to read it after Les removes it from
> > boaters Ed...
> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> > Les is of course right on the legailities. Salvage law allows the claim
> > made. The foolish and their money are soon parted. Experienced skippers,
> who
> > also know about the salvage laws, don't allow their boats into the surf on
> a
> > lee beach.
> >
> > This is similar to any number of places where people have lost their
> houses
> > etc. do to particular quirks in the law. If enough people get screwed we
> fix
> > it - ala the "Truth in lending" laws and similar. I personally doubt that
> > there are enough victims to cause the necessary groundswell to change this
> > law. You basically have to do a couple or three dumb things to end up in
> > this problem. It is unlikely that enough of the population will screw up
> to
> > force a correction.
> >
> > Remember the underlying purpose of this law... to make it lucrative to
> > rescue valuable ships at risk at sea... is still operative and still
> > desirable. Its misapplication to simple pulls off the beach or (the worst
> I
> > know of) collecting boats off their moorings in a protected harbor well
> > after a storm will still lead to outlandish awards.
> >
> > I find it particularly disturbing that SeaTow reads this law against its
> own
> > membership. Maybe we need a boaters union?
> >
> > Note by the way that this is a question of legality. The ethics or
> morality
> > of the position is pretty close to absurd. This is the "well its only your
> > insurance company that pays" sort of absurdity that can be used to justify
> > virtually any insurable transaction. I should forget about the fact that
> you
> > deliberately backed into me at the light because the matter is between you
> > and my insurance company? I think not.
> >
> > Les is very comfortable with this as he is ethically challenged.
> >
> > As a for instance he published a block of data purported to be the buoy
> data
> > for the Nantucket sea buoy. Well it may well have been the actually sea
> buoy
> > data but it was edited for the purpose of supporting the claim...
> reasonably
> > outrageously actually. Les observes A large drop in pressure for example -
> > without observing that it happened the day before the incident. The
> > pressures for the 12 hours before and after the incident are reasonable
> > consistent and the rises in wave height are moderate. All supporting
> > Slanty's position - not that of the sea tow captain. Note all of these
> > readings are at a sea buoy well offshore and are almost certainly worse
> than
> > the actuals. Those of you observing this fiasco should also be ashamed.
> How
> > can Les get away with lying about his key data and nobody says a word?
> None
> > of you have the skill required to get buoy data? You sure you should be
> out
> > without your mothers? Here is the actual data by the
> >
> > As published by Les -
> >
> > way.Date.......time....wind..gust. .W/H............... baro

> > 2001 07 03 09 250 2.0 2.0 1.0 MM MM 1024.4
> > 2001 07 02 08 200 4.0 5.0 2.4 MM MM 1009.4
> > 2001 07 02 07 230 3.0 4.0 2.3 MM MM 1008.4
> > 2001 07 02 06 250 3.0 4.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.0
> > 2001 07 02 05 240 4.0 5.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.0
> > 2001 07 02 04 220 5.0 6.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.6
> > 2001 07 02 03 240 10.0 12.0 2.2 MM MM 1008.9
> > 2001 07 02 02 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 MM MM 1008.4
> > 2001 07 02 01 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 MM MM 1008.3
> > 2001 07 02 00 210 9.0 11.0 1.7 MM MM 1008.2
> > 2001 07 01 23 200 8.0 9.0 1.8 MM MM 1008.1
> > 2001 07 01 22 200 8.0 9.0 1.9 MM MM 1008.2
> > 2001 07 01 21 200 8.0 8.0 1.8 MM MM 1008.3
> > 2001 07 01 20 200 7.0 7.0 1.6 MM MM 1008.7
> > 2001 07 01 19 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 MM MM 1009.5
> > 2001 07 01 18 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 MM MM 1010.3
> > 2001 07 01 17 200 7.0 7.0 1.4 MM MM 1011.1
> > 2001 07 01 16 210 6.0 7.0 1.4 MM MM 1011.7
> > 2001 07 01 15 210 7.0 8.0 1.5 MM MM 1011.8
> > 2001 06 30 02 150 4.0 5.0 0.5 MM MM 1019.5
> >

> > The real data...
> >
> > YYYY MM DD hh WD WSPD GST WVHT DPD APD MWD BARO ATMP WTMP DEWP VIS PTDY
> TIDE
> > 2001 07 02 02 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 7 MM MM 1008.4 21.2 16.0 20.3 MM +0.3 MM
> > 2001 07 02 01 210 11.0 12.0 2.0 7 MM MM 1008.3 21.4 16.5 20.4 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 02 00 210 9.0 11.0 1.7 7 MM MM 1008.2 20.6 12.8 20.3 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 23 200 8.0 9.0 1.8 7 MM MM 1008.1 19.6 13.2 19.5 MM -0.6 MM
> > 2001 07 01 22 200 8.0 9.0 1.9 7 MM MM 1008.2 19.1 14.1 19.0 MM -1.3 MM
> > 2001 07 01 21 200 8.0 8.0 1.8 6 MM MM 1008.3 19.1 14.1 19.0 MM -2.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 20 200 7.0 7.0 1.6 7 MM MM 1008.7 18.8 12.9 18.7 MM -2.4 MM
> > 2001 07 01 19 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 7 MM MM 1009.5 18.8 12.5 18.7 MM -2.2 MM
> > 2001 07 01 18 200 7.0 7.0 1.5 7 MM MM 1010.3 19.1 12.5 19.0 MM -1.5 MM
> > 2001 07 01 17 200 7.0 7.0 1.4 7 MM MM 1011.1 19.3 12.5 19.2 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 16 210 6.0 7.0 1.4 7 MM MM 1011.7 19.6 14.2 19.1 MM -0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 15 210 7.0 8.0 1.5 7 MM MM 1011.8 20.3 14.4 19.4 MM -0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 14 220 8.0 10.0 1.5 6 MM MM 1011.2 20.4 15.1 19.4 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 13 220 8.0 9.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.7 20.4 15.0 19.9 MM +0.5 MM
> > 2001 07 01 12 210 8.0 9.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.7 19.9 12.2 19.8 MM +0.4 MM
> > 2001 07 01 11 200 6.0 6.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.2 18.2 12.2 17.2 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 10 230 5.0 6.0 1.6 6 MM MM 1011.2 20.3 12.6 16.2 MM -0.5 MM
> > 2001 07 01 09 230 6.0 7.0 1.5 6 MM MM 1011.3 18.0 12.0 17.9 MM -0.5 MM
> > 2001 07 01 08 220 7.0 8.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.3 18.3 11.8 18.2 MM -0.6 MM
> > 2001 07 01 07 220 8.0 8.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.7 18.8 11.8 18.5 MM -0.8 MM
> > 2001 07 01 06 220 8.0 8.0 1.4 6 MM MM 1011.8 19.1 11.7 18.6 MM -0.8 MM
> > 2001 07 01 05 220 8.0 10.0 1.2 6 MM MM 1011.9 20.6 11.6 19.4 MM -1.6 MM
> > 2001 07 01 04 210 8.0 10.0 1.2 6 MM MM 1012.5 21.1 15.6 20.2 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 03 210 9.0 10.0 1.0 6 MM MM 1012.6 21.5 16.9 20.7 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 02 210 6.0 7.0 0.9 5 MM MM 1013.5 21.4 17.6 21.0 MM +0.8 MM
> > 2001 07 01 01 210 7.0 8.0 0.9 5 MM MM 1012.7 21.7 17.8 21.3 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 07 01 00 210 7.0 8.0 0.8 5 MM MM 1012.5 21.5 18.0 21.1 MM -0.4 MM
> > 2001 06 30 23 200 7.0 8.0 0.9 4 MM MM 1012.7 21.9 18.0 21.1 MM -0.7 MM
> > 2001 06 30 22 200 7.0 7.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1012.7 21.4 16.8 20.4 MM -1.5 MM
> > 2001 06 30 21 200 7.0 8.0 0.9 4 MM MM 1012.9 21.1 14.2 20.0 MM -1.9 MM
> > 2001 06 30 20 210 7.0 7.0 0.9 4 MM MM 1013.4 20.7 15.2 19.7 MM -1.6 MM
> > 2001 06 30 19 210 7.0 8.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1014.2 20.7 15.7 19.7 MM -1.4 MM
> > 2001 06 30 18 210 6.0 7.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1014.8 21.1 16.3 20.1 MM -0.9 MM
> > 2001 06 30 17 220 7.0 8.0 0.8 4 MM MM 1015.0 21.2 16.5 20.2 MM -1.0 MM
> > 2001 06 30 16 210 7.0 8.0 0.7 4 MM MM 1015.6 21.2 16.8 20.2 MM -0.9 MM
> > 2001 06 30 15 220 7.0 8.0 0.7 4 MM MM 1015.7 21.4 17.6 20.6 MM -1.1 MM
> > 2001 06 30 14 200 6.0 7.0 0.6 8 MM MM 1016.0 21.1 18.0 20.4 MM -0.6 MM
> > 2001 06 30 13 200 6.0 7.0 0.6 9 MM MM 1016.5 20.7 18.0 19.8 MM -0.7 MM
> > 2001 06 30 12 200 6.0 6.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1016.8 20.6 17.6 19.5 MM -0.3 MM
> > 2001 06 30 11 200 6.0 6.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1016.6 20.3 17.1 19.5 MM -0.6 MM
> > 2001 06 30 10 210 5.0 6.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.2 19.6 16.0 18.7 MM -0.4 MM
> > 2001 06 30 09 200 5.0 5.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.1 19.0 12.3 18.0 MM -0.8 MM
> > 2001 06 30 08 190 4.0 4.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.2 18.0 11.8 17.1 MM -1.5 MM
> > 2001 06 30 07 190 4.0 4.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1017.6 17.9 11.8 16.9 MM -1.2 MM
> > 2001 06 30 06 180 3.0 3.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1017.9 18.0 12.3 17.0 MM -1.1 MM
> > 2001 06 30 05 160 3.0 3.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1018.7 18.3 15.1 16.7 MM -0.8 MM
> > 2001 06 30 04 160 4.0 4.0 0.6 9 MM MM 1018.8 18.8 16.8 16.2 MM -0.6 MM
> > 2001 06 30 03 160 4.0 5.0 0.6 9 MM MM 1019.0 19.1 17.6 15.4 MM -0.5 MM
> > 2001 06 30 02 150 4.0 5.0 0.5 8 MM MM 1019.5 19.5 18.4 14.9 MM +0.0 MM
> > 2001 06 30 01 150 5.0 5.0 0.5 4 MM MM 1019.4 MM 18.8 13.3 MM +0.3 MM
> > 2001 06 30 00 140 5.0 6.0 0.5 9 MM MM 1019.5 19.1 18.8 14.7 MM -0.0 MM
> >
> > Les has managed to leverage the position of VP of the tow truck company to
> > something close to guru status. I suggest you consider that he is still a
> > high level tow truck driver. When is the last time you consulted a tow
> truck
> > driver about your legal rights?
> >
> > Jim Donohue - I use my name freely as Les gave it out, in violation of the
> > site privacy rules, the last time he was annoyed with me. I am easy to
> find
> > on any number of lists including rec.boats and rec.boats.cruising.
> >
> > Come try an open forum and see how well your ideas do without "mother"
> > shepherding them into the commercially desired channels.
> >
> > ps - I will post this in all sorts of threads for a while- or at least a
> > reference to it and will put it up on rec.boats or somewhere so I don't
> have
> > to keep making this long post as Les wipes it out.
> >
> > Don't miss the point - Les removes all posts that indicate he is wrong in
> > any serious way. So there are never any competent counter opinions.
> >
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>
> >
> >
> >
> > So lets be careful to keep the newbees away from this den of
> > mis-information.
> >
> > You know Harry you ought to go over there and contribute. Bet $10 (to
> your
> > favorite charity) that you can't last a month.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >

--
__________________
Keith
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

Keith

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 11:09:22 AM8/7/01

to

Besides... ALL the towing services are pirates. They almost always try
to get the salvage reward, no matter what.

hkr...@capu.net wrote:
>
> Giles Morris wrote:
> >
> > "Dave" <wil...@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote

> >
> > > You got some sort of penis envy thing going on
> >

> > and

> >
> > > The things that "we" do not
> > > tolerate are the name-calling
> >

> > Hmmm.
> >
> > Giles Morris
>
> I love the "we" part. "We" are in control of what you post.
> Even more interesting are the folks who post there who complain about SPAM
> here. Boater's Ed is nothing but SPAM.
>
> --
> Harry Krause
> ------------
>
> Peace, in International terms, is a period of cheating in between two periods
> of fighting

--
__________________
Keith
Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and skill

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 12:01:00 PM8/7/01

to

>It's wonderful that you stopped off here to dump your trash on your way to
>wherever it is you hang these days, Rich. As usual, the newsgroup benefits
>greatly from the contents of your spleen and, of course, your dimwitted
>psychological profiling.

Nicely penned! Actually, I don't dump the trash. I just stop by to see if I
can help sweep up your mess. Once again, the mess appears insurmountable. And
the smell...

I chuckled when you recently flattered yourself as Falstaff. The title role in
"The Emperor's New Clothes" is a more apt likeness.

>About every fifth post was an apology to Les for some imaginary
>offense.

And here, approximately every fifth post is by you, more often than not with an
actual offense. Certainly with no value to "boater education." Yes, indeed,
Boater Ed is sending boaters to hell in a handbasket. Good thing we've got you
to champion truth and bile in boater education.

>What's *your* area of expertise, Rich, other than posting snotty comments in
>here?

What's does it matter, Harry? I am out learning and enjoying as much as a busy
life allows. I'm grateful not to be locked into an ego-prison called
rec.boats.

Do you have a clue, any concept, any inkling of how pathetic the body of work
you've amassed here makes you look? Ever think that when you are gone, many
will only have known you as the persona here? Quite a legacy.

>through about 20 different headers and their contents over there on various
>aspects of boating electronics,
>I concluded that most of them didn't know
>scheiss from shine-ola, but, by gummy

Great, here's a chance for redemption: Clean up your act. Provide the boating
electronics expertise you claim is missing. People will thank you, think
highly of you, and say, "gee, that guy Harry was once less than useless, now,
we really depend on him for true 'boater ed'."

Doesn't that make you feel better already?

Nah.

-- Rich Stern

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 12:18:58 PM8/7/01

to

Rich Stern wrote:
>
> >It's wonderful that you stopped off here to dump your trash on your way to
> >wherever it is you hang these days, Rich. As usual, the newsgroup benefits
> >greatly from the contents of your spleen and, of course, your dimwitted
> >psychological profiling.
>
> Nicely penned! Actually, I don't dump the trash. I just stop by to see if I
> can help sweep up your mess. Once again, the mess appears insurmountable. And
> the smell...

> I chuckled when you recently flattered yourself as Falstaff. The title role in
> "The Emperor's New Clothes" is a more apt likeness.

Your knowledge of boats is exceeded only by your knowledge of English, Rich.
Do you understand the sentence you posted?

>
> >What's *your* area of expertise, Rich, other than posting snotty comments in
> >here?
>
> What's does it matter, Harry? I am out learning and enjoying as much as a busy
> life allows.

You need to find more time.

--
Harry Krause
------------

Strange behaviorweird costumes -- I must be at work

Jim Donohue

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 12:40:58 PM8/7/01

to

Dave -

And I think you miss the point. Les and I agreed as to the legality and the
existance of peril and all that from message one. We agreed that the tow
boat Captain was within his legal rights to do what he did. We could
probably have put that all to bed in 15% of the messages it actually took.
It is not the first time the subject has been worked in depth. The two
Block Island incidents have certainly been discussed. before - and they are,
in straight salvage issues terms, far more of an indictment of the salvage
industry than this beach incident. Going around after a storm is well over
and remooring the boats that broke lose and then claiming salvage - now that
is stretching the concept.

Les however understands that the ethics of a stealth salvage can be
questioned on grounds other than the legalities. Do you allow your
customers to be screwed by an operator sailing under your corporate flag?
And it is on those grounds that he removes messages. It is challenging the
ethics of Sea Tow that is not allowed. And Les takes the issue sufficiently
seriously that he manipulates data to support the Captain - who is really
undeserving of support.

On the issue of the ethics and whether one should do business with Sea Tow
there is, effectively, no information. So on this crucial issue the signal
to noise ratio on Boaters Ed is vastly worse than here. Sure we got noise
on rec.boats, but we have at least some information.

You apparently feel that it was OK because he delivers the basic message on
salvage... I think screwing with the data to mitiage an obvious wrong done
by your own company is reprehensible behaviour - and I think your defense of
Les in this matter indicates that my original view of your participation
here was correct.

And I am sorry that you don't care enough to help stop a charlatan from
preaching to the less knowledgable.

Jim

"Dave" <wil...@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:S6Jb7.1160$V43.1...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 1:30:52 PM8/7/01

to

>> I chuckled when you recently flattered yourself as Falstaff. The title
>role in
>> "The Emperor's New Clothes" is a more apt likeness.
>
>Your knowledge of boats is exceeded only by your knowledge of English, Rich.
>Do you understand the sentence you posted?

Since you quoted two sentences, but referred to them in the singular, I'm left
guessing as to which you meant.

Do you know which sentence you were referring to, Harry?

>You need to find more time.

Worldly advice from a man who so wisely invests much of his time here, in his
make-believe playpen.

-- Rich Stern

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 1:45:21 PM8/7/01

to

Rich Stern wrote:
>
> >> I chuckled when you recently flattered yourself as Falstaff. The title
> >role in
> >> "The Emperor's New Clothes" is a more apt likeness.
> >
> >Your knowledge of boats is exceeded only by your knowledge of English, Rich.
> >Do you understand the sentence you posted?
>
> Since you quoted two sentences, but referred to them in the singular, I'm left
> guessing as to which you meant.

No doubt. Okay. What is the title role in the story you cited?

--
Harry Krause
------------

Apathy error: Don't bother striking any key

Kevin in San Diego

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 1:51:44 PM8/7/01

to

Jim pointed out an error I made in a private, polite email. I respoded to a
post I thought he made when in reality it was two posts put together, his
and another.

To Jim:
I'm not sure how I misread it, maybe I saw part of someone else's editing
mess. I have to fix my mess as you pointed it out to me. My post to the
group showed a mixed up quote that was a mix of yours and
vze2...@verizon.net 's post.

You I now see, were expressing your regret at joining the ranks of the
censored and not calling anyone a sham. You did no name calling at all from
what I see.

My mistake completely, sorry Jim.

I frequent boater ed and a half dozen other forums and newsgroups. I see
this kind of mistake all of the time and am embarrassed it happened to me.
You have my respect for emailing me in private to point this out instead of
jumping on me here in public where I deserved it.

"Kevin in San Diego" <kevin_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:NSIb7.147684$%a.64...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 4:41:25 PM8/7/01

to

Phoenix wrote:

> Since I have bored with the repetitive and never ending trolling and bashing
> that goes on in rec.boats, I have not been reading this NG for the past few
> months.

Whoa there cowboy! You got bored? My recollection is that you got
*gored* after becoming one of this NG's worst flamers. Have you
forgotten so soon that you were ostracized and your insults ignored?

> I am not sure if much has changed in the past few months, but from the but
> from the 500 headers that I downloaded this morning, it appears that the
> only change is that this NG no longer has some of the expert and
> professional contributors that used to provide good, solid and on topic
> information.

Most of those experts and professionals are still around, they just
prefer to respond via email. Rec.boats is still a good source for boater
information, certainly a far better source than the misdirection
prevalent at BoaterEd.

> As long as the signal to noise ratio remains high, www.boatersed.com will

> continue to grow...

Have you forgotten that your contributions to this NG were all noise
with no signal? You really should go to BoaterEd, Phoenix. Hell, they'd
probably make you a moderator and then even you might just rise from the
ashes.

--
Skipper

Dave

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:05:06 PM8/7/01

to

Jim, I am not Les and I do not speak for Les. I can tell you what I
observed. After a good thrashing over the towing bill itself...100 plus
posts...

Les Wrote:

>If anyone is concerned about their post being removed, I stated, on Friday,

>that any additional posts discussing the "fairness" of the claim would be

>deleted. That has been discussed at length and is contrary to what we are
>attempting to accomplish here. If anyone has any issues with me or the data
>that I posted, I invite them to pick up the phone and call me, like a man

>and not some wimpy weasel hiding behind a fictitious user name - here's

even
>a toll free number, 1 800 4SEATOW.

Now I may be wrong but I believe that this was directed straight at you. If
you have a problem with the data posted.....call him up....He has stepped up
to plate, will you?

How many people here will sign their own name and phone number? Jim, Harry,
I will give you credit. At least you are not hiding behind a fake e-mail
address with a bogus name.

SeaTow, I do not work for or with SeaTow in ANY way, shape or form. Never
have.

Your issue with SeaTow:
I was not there. I don't know that any of you were there. Having worked
in and on the water for more than a few years, I would be inclined to
believe that the Captain of the boat had some reason outside of money to
have declared the vessel salvage. You are welcome to believe what ever you
like. I have seen boats in the surf on more than 5 occasions. 30 minutes
or less they bust at the seams. 2 hours or so they are filling of sand. It
is not pretty. In the thread mentioned I spoke of helping pick up the
pieces of a rather large sailboat and putting it in the back of my Toyota
SR5. I think that IF the insurance company has any problem with the bill
they will fight it or arbitrate it. If they think that the bill is
reasonable for what happened....I bet they pay with a smile on their face.
28 grand beats paying the full value of the boat.

I am not defending Les. Les is a big boy and can defend himself with out
the need of my assistance. I think BoaterEd.com is a great site. I think
that overall "We" do a great job of passing on much needed information to
the boating public. I think that the moderators there, myself included,
spend a lot of time helping allot of people. I might add we are NICE about
it or I should say we try to be nice about it, with some people, I will
admit, it is really hard to be nice, but we try. 99.5 % of the posts that I
have seen deleted were because of their argumentative nature or down right
flaming. The people that have been asked to leave have, for the most part,
deserved it. Name calling, flaming and/or ridiculing other people will get
you bared and your post deleted. Expect it. If you have a valid point,
post it, but be nice about. Conduct yourselves as gentlemen and you will be
treated as such. Likewise if you conduct yourself in less than gentlemanly
manner EXPECT to have your posts deleted and then expect to be banned.

After as bumpy start Jim and I have had a wonderful conversation for the
most part. Harry you even came up with some worthwhile comments. ( I hope
you are trying to break new ground. I doubt it but...) I hope that we can in
the future enjoy more enlightening conversation.

Dave T.
Fishing Host
BoaterEd.com

"Jim Donohue" <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message

news:tn06l2t...@corp.supernews.com...

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:09:11 PM8/7/01

to

>Rec.boats is still a good source for boater
>information, certainly a far better source than the misdirection
>prevalent at BoaterEd.
>

That statement is easily debated. Better yet, it is easily tested.

I propose to do the following:

At various times in the next month, I will submit three questions each to
rec.boats and boatered.com, on diverse boating topics using currently unknown
email addresses from a PC unrelated to any of my own. The questions to each of
the two forums will be slightly changed in particulars (boat model, boating
location, etc.,), but not in the essence of the question itself.

At the same time I submit the questions, I will email them to a neutral third
party agreed to in this forum.

After all of the questions have been live for at least a week, I will disclose
them, and we can review the threads for quality of responses in both forums.

Of course, BoatersEd may object, but I would hope they would not.

Any takers?

-- Rich Stern

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:21:09 PM8/7/01

to

Not at all.

I think you have it wrong.

--
Harry Krause
------------

To remove dust from the eye, pull the eye down over the nose

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:23:25 PM8/7/01

to

Why would anyone trust you to conduct an honest test?

You get any takers over at Boater-Uned for your boat to rebuild quest?
I noticed you haven't responded to my recommendation...

--
Harry Krause
------------

Silence cannot be misquoted

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:27:06 PM8/7/01

to

>Name calling, flaming and/or ridiculing other people will get
>you bared and your post deleted. Expect it. If you have a valid point,
>post it, but be nice about. Conduct yourselves as gentlemen and you will be
>treated as such. Likewise if you conduct yourself in less than gentlemanly
>manner EXPECT to have your posts deleted and then expect to be banned.

That approach, if applied fairly, fosters a great message board. And it's
essential if the message board is a commercial enterprise.

-- Rich Stern

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:32:45 PM8/7/01

to

Surely you are not referring to boatered as a "great message board." The
entire place, including the software under which it operates, has had massive
doses of SOMA. And much of the "tech" info I saw there is b.s.

Plus, of course, the owners discourage and then ban open discussions about
what is good, bad or ugly about boating equipment and suppliers of same.

The place ought to be renamed "Boating Consumers Beware," and its symbol ought
to be the Jolly Roger.

--
Harry Krause
------------

I want a car phone so I can use my modem at stoplights!

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:33:54 PM8/7/01

to

>Rich Stern wrote:
>>
>> >No doubt. Okay. What is the title role in the story you cited?
>>
>> You're kidding, right?
>>
>> -- Rich Stern
>
>Not at all.
>
>I think you have it wrong.
>

Okay, to be fair: The emperor is the title role and the character I liken you
to.

I'm interested to read which part you feel I have wrong.

-- Rich Stern

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:53:18 PM8/7/01

to

In Andersen's story, "The Emperor's New Clothes," the star billing, the title
role, as it were, goes to...

...the "invisible" clothes, of course.

--
Harry Krause
------------

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:52:19 PM8/7/01

to

>Why would anyone trust you to conduct an honest test?
>

First, people that know me both in business and in person consider me honest.

Second, you won't find any evidence of me being dishonest here or anywhere else
because I'm not. If you looked through my posting history, you'd find that in
cases where I was proven wrong, I admitted so, hopefully with a measure of
grace.

Finally, I suggested a mechanism that would make my honesty a moot point. I
wouldn't even care if somebody else conducted the test.

But, as I expected, you seem to fear the results.

>You get any takers over at Boater-Uned for your boat to rebuild quest?

Never posed the question there. I don't have a working login (maybe I'm banned
and don't know it?)

>I noticed you haven't responded to my recommendation...

My apologies. When I first revisited rec.boats I had you filtered from my
previous sessions. That was a holdover from the Florida electrion controversy.
I missed your answer to my post. I just did a search and found it. It was
very good and I will follow up on your comments. Thank you.

-- Rich Stern

Wayne Canino

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:57:00 PM8/7/01

to

Umm, why would you even give them the *chance* to object? After all - it's a
blind test.
Don't empower people needlessly.

-W

Rich Stern <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010807170911.18701.00003487@mb-

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:57:47 PM8/7/01

to

Rich Stern wrote:
>
> >Why would anyone trust you to conduct an honest test?
> >
>
> First, people that know me both in business and in person consider me honest.
>
> Second, you won't find any evidence of me being dishonest here or anywhere else
> because I'm not. If you looked through my posting history, you'd find that in
> cases where I was proven wrong, I admitted so, hopefully with a measure of
> grace.
>
> Finally, I suggested a mechanism that would make my honesty a moot point. I
> wouldn't even care if somebody else conducted the test.
>
> But, as I expected, you seem to fear the results.

I don't fear the results. I just don't believe the test would prove a thing.

--
Harry Krause
------------

Bread making is finger painting for adults

LaBomba182

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 5:58:34 PM8/7/01

to

>Subject: Re: persona non grata - Boaters Ed.
>From: rbs...@aol.com (Rich Stern)

>Any takers?
>
>
>-- Rich Stern
>

Yes, by all means. I enjoy all forms of masturbation. Even mental masturbation.

Capt. Bill

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 6:08:17 PM8/7/01

to

>Yes, by all means. I enjoy all forms of masturbation. Even mental
>masturbation.
>
> Capt. Bill

Very open and honest of you, Bill. How's your eyesight?

-- Rich Stern

David S. Pendleton

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 6:35:48 PM8/7/01

to

What, pray tell, is SOMA?

<hkr...@capu.net> wrote in message news:3B705E7D...@capu.net...

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 6:40:45 PM8/7/01

to

>
>I don't fear the results. I just don't believe the test would prove a thing.
>

And the logic behind this statement is...

-- Rich Stern

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 6:43:36 PM8/7/01

to

>Umm, why would you even give them the *chance* to object? After all - it's a
>blind test.
>Don't empower people needlessly.
>
>-W

Because I respect the fact that it is their private property, and they have a
right to dictate how it is used.

-- Rich Stern

Avenging Disco Godfather

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 6:45:04 PM8/7/01

to

David S. Pendleton <dav...@mr.net> gave me something I can root to:

> What, pray tell, is SOMA?

http://www.huxley.net/soma/

--
I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!

Rich Stern

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 6:49:16 PM8/7/01

to

>In Andersen's story, "The Emperor's New Clothes," the star billing, the title
>role, as it were, goes to...
>
>...the "invisible" clothes, of course.
>

I concede the point.

Let me rephrase my original statement:

Harry, you seem more like the emperor in the children's fairy tale "The
Emperor's New Clothes," than Falstaff in Henry IV.

-- Rich Stern

Russ Glindmeier

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 7:04:31 PM8/7/01

to

Avenging Disco Godfather wrote in message
<9kpr1g$mjm$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>...

>David S. Pendleton <dav...@mr.net> gave me something I can root to:
>
>> What, pray tell, is SOMA?
>
>http://www.huxley.net/soma/
>

Gee, and I thought it was just a muscle relaxer.

Russ

Butch Ammon

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 7:05:40 PM8/7/01

to

Um, like, I *really* didn't need to know this!

Butch Ammon
My web page:
http://members.aol.com/ammonc/butch.html

Wayne Canino

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 7:13:03 PM8/7/01

to

Tell that to 60 minutes. :)

-W

Rich Stern <rbs...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010807184336...@mb-mq.aol.com...

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 7:28:55 PM8/7/01

to

"David S. Pendleton" wrote:
>
> What, pray tell, is SOMA?
>

You've not read Huxley's Brave New World? It was a drug the populace was to
take

"Two thousand pharmacologists and bio-chemists were subsidized. Six years
later it was being
produced commercially. The perfect drug. Euphoric, narcotic, pleasantly
hallucinant. All the
advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects. Take a holiday
from reality
whenever you like, and come back without so much as a headache or a mythology.
Stability
was practically assured."

Harry Krause
------------

Chef (n) -- any cook who swears in French

hkr...@capu.net

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 7:33:47 PM8/7/01

to

Too many variables, too many ways to fix the results, prior notification to
the control freaks at boaters-undeducated.

Here's a simpler test with simpler questions.

Of the mail order houses selling marine gear, which consistently have the
lowest prices for the following typical items (list of 10)?

If you and your boat are in distress and require a tow, how might you ensure
you are not taken advantage of by a towboat operator whose main interest is in
securing a "salvage" fee?

Do you believe a boating electronics store will recommend products it doesn't
sell if those products are superior to what it does sell?

I know those questions would be answered *here* without censorship. How long
might they last at boater-uneducated if the fix were not in? And, of course,
the fix is already in, right?

--
Harry Krause
------------

Cats know how we feelthey just don't give a damn

Jim Donohue

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 9:28:07 PM8/7/01

to

Les has had my email, including a private one I thnk for many months. We
have had siginifcant correspondence on this subject and others. I have
authorized Les in one of the recent ones to release the whole set if he
likes... He won't "like" as he is uncomfortable in the light. Some of its a
little ugly but it would fly as rationale discourse on usenet.

I think Les is aware of my position in full detail. If he had a refutation
of the technical arguments he would have used them.

I therefore presume that Les wants a non-documented interchange. I would
probably go for that to except that I believe he is capable of unreasonable
editing of data and therefore would not hesitate to misrepresent a telephone
conversation. And after he misrepresents the conversation he simply
prevents any refutation from appearing on his site.

When you deal with a charlatan you try to keep it all out and in the open
for all to see. Makes it simpler. Step behind the curtain and .... special
effects.

And Dave you by the way should know all this. This defense of Les via the
role of the "neutral mediator" does not become you. You got a simple data
set - all containable on one page. Did he misconstrue it or not? You
volunteered to be in the middle. You stoutly testified to the goodness of
Boaters Ed. But you continue to refuse to deal with the virtual certainty
that one of your fellow hosts deliberately screwed the duck for the
advantage of his company.

I continue to provide you the opportuinty to demonstrate that you are not
Les's "lackey". And you continue to duck. You don't defend or attack the
statement Les made... you simply refuse to deal with it.

Your signal to noise ratio is worsening rapidly Dave. As I continue to
point out, and Les full understands, Boater Ed folks come across pretty
light weight once not in control of the information flow.

Jim

"Dave" <wil...@NOSPAMbellsouth.net> wrote in message

news:eHYb7.2882$V43.2...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...

David S. Pendleton

unread,

Aug 7, 2001, 9:30:47 PM8/7/01

to

No, I haven't. I just did a little search and found it on the web at
huxley.net. Very interesting.

<hkr...@capu.net> wrote in message news:3B7079B7...@capu.net...