New Honda troubles (2)
cbetts
>> A couple weeks ago, I finally bought a new Honda 5 hp (4-stroke). My
wife
>> wanted a 100% reliable motor she could put on and off in the winter
(Maine).
>> Unfortunately, it's been less than reliable in the first few uses.
Tougher
>> to start than we expected (generally 5-6 pulls) and all but impossible to
>> re-start when warm. The second use I went about a mile (at half speed,
>> per break-in instructions), stopped it to show off to a neighbor, and
>> couldn't get it going again drifting away in the current, pulling away,
even with
>> fuel line disconnected (assumed flooding). Finally rowed back to
neighbors,
>> visited for a while, and it started right up.
>> Since then, this flooding has been consistent. I discovered the
carbdrain,
<snip>
>> I tried to contact Honda, but their website doesn't have email or
(correct)
>> phone number.
To update the saga, I took the motor to the closest authorized shop (about
1.5 hours each way), Strout's Point Wharf Company, of South Freeport, Maine
[gratuitous mention of the company, just to be sure anybody looking them up
on the web sees this posting]. They couldn't duplicate the problem -
therefore, for them, there is no problem.
Since that time, we use the motor infrequently (we have two other boats just
as convenient, with patched-together old Johnson/Evinrude hybrids) As it
gets broken in, it starts easier; we just follow these procedures:
1) Always disconnect the fuel line when not running.
2) Never try to restart if warm.
3) If you forget either (1) or (2), then remove the cover, drain the
carb overboard, replace the cover, and start.
Today, 7 weeks after the service, I got an invoice from the shop, for 1.5
hours work, at $48/hr: "...suspect motor was carried improperly at one
time. Checked and cleaned plug and carb. Runs fine. "
I called Honda to inquire about warranty coverage (the phone # on their
website now works) and they informed me that "there is a known problem with
flooding"; they "recommend draining the carburetor after each use."
Question: is deliberately draining an ounce of gasoline into the water,
with every use, OK?
What would you do, if you were me?
Thanks
Curtis
nob...@nowhere.net
motor running, (or shut off the fuel valve if it has a tank built on
top of it), and let the engine consume the gas in the carb(s) before
pulling it off the boat. Empty carbs won't get all gummy from
evaporating gas when stored.
larry
cbetts
dealer. Will probably do it dozens of times this winter, though. In the
winter, when use can be sporadic, I usually use StaBil and dri-gas (or some
kind of anti-freeze). Unfortunately, in very cold weather, it's impractical
to run the motor dry every time.
Tony Thomas
into the water. That would be illegal and definitely does not meet the 2006
emissions requirement
My suggestions:
1. Ask them to put their statement in writing about the problem w/ flooding
and to drain each time. Or see if you can get a copy of a service bulletin
from a dealer.
2. Then call them back and ask for your money back on the engine due to a
systemic defect.
Seems ridiculous to have a brand new engine that has a known flooding
problem that they cannot fix w/ a rejetting or float adjustment.
So much for Honda perfection.
--
Tony Thomas
My boats at http://members.home.net/thomastl1
"cbetts" <curtisbet...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:JkIu7.16586$xG6.7...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Don White
1960 British Seagull. During the season I don't do anything special.
No draining the carb......it starts 1st or 2nd try, hot or cold.
During the winter I do the usual winterising plus take the gas tank off
and put a bit of motor oil in it to prevent rusting.
RichG
Yes, it was pull start and I should have known better, but I had the
boat..and I had the motor. The lake had a 7.5 hp limit.
It seems that the Honda can't take any pull to start unless the pull is
straight out the front. I managed to jump the pulley inside nearly every
time I tried to start it up. The jumped pulley needed a wrench and a
screwdriver to re-position the rope!
Honda and the dealer gave me the run-around. They "couldn't duplicate the
problem" Not when the stood in front of the engine on the dealer's floor
and pulled straight they couldn't!
I know my application was wrong for the motor, but the motor jumped it's
pulley nearly every time with an angled upwards pull, even though it had a
round hole designed to allow for indirect pulling! The dealer said many
other motors make a device for upwards pulling, with applications such as a
kicker for a sailboat, but Honda didn't, even though it was a 4 cycle long
shaft.
I finally traded it in and got a Suziki electric start. I know I should have
done that first..but they sure didn't increase my confidence in "dealer
support", even after calling the regional guy. He said "no way we are going
to even look at a 5 hp...too many bigger problems to deal with " So much
for Honda....
If there is any way you can get out of the deal, do it now!
--
rich...@yahoo.com
John
First off, never heard of having to disconnect a fuel line and running
out the fuel. Maybe years ago, but fuel gumming is a thing of the
past, unless you store the engine for extended periods of time.
Today's gas is not what it was.
Second. I would never feel good about running any engine dry, I know
this one you have is a four cycle but especially a two cycle engine
(remember where they get their lubrication from). I'd rather have the
fuel where it belongs, keeps things from drying out (personal
preferance).
And last, we have a 2 year old Mercury 25, we never drain fuel, never
do anything but shut it off and disconnect the fuel line to put the
tank away and it starts every time by, at least, the 3rd pull and
their not hard pulls from any angle.
My only question is, why would anyone buy a small Honda outboard in
the first place, probably paying a lot more for it, when the small
Mercury outboards and OMC's (only their small one's) are very
reliable, and have proven so over the years? Why go for a product of
unknown quality unless their is a significant price savings, do you
enjoy being someone's guinea pig and paying for the honor? Honda just
hasn't been around that long, drive 1.5 hours to get to a dealer, get
real. We're talking about a boat engine here, not a car engine,
differant animals. I've seen their engines, their nice, they generally
run OK, but their nothing special. I've heard all about how little
fuel they supposedly burn, I haven't seen their owners buying any less
fuel than anyone else. And I've seen the power they produce, not
impressive.
I'm from the north east coast, their not common here, I wonder why?
cbetts
state. Word is, the email is already making the rounds in the statehouse.
> I have a new Honda 5hp outboard motor, and have been in touch with the
manufacturer
> and a local authorized service center about service issues.
>
> (Honda Power Equipment 770-497-6400, Theresa in Customer Service)
> (Strout's Point Wharf Co in South Freeport, 865 3899, Peter Barnes)
>
> They have recommended that the carburetor of this engine be drained after
each use, and,
> if necessary, before starting the engine. The carburetor is set up with a
drain valve, with a
> hose leading directly overboard.
>
> I asked whether draining gasoline directly into the water is appropriate,
and the company
> replied that I should drain it "into a tuna can or something".
>
> I have two concerns with this: First, it is not always practical to lean
over the transom of a
> small boat with a tuna can, particularly in rough conditions, and second,
I do not generally
> carry a container to dump the fuel into.
>
> Can you suggest another approach, or recommend a commercial "spill
response kit" to
> clean up the fuel that will inevitably spill both inside and outside of
the boat?
>
> Thank you for your assistance
nob...@nowhere.net
spray out of the top of the float bowl where the little pin stuck out
of it so you could flood it to start it in cold weather. It used to
make a helluva mess in the bilge of my old rowboat, what with all the
Flying 'A' SAE 30 motor oil in the gas at 16:1.......
From all the oil dumped by old outboards into every lake in the
country, they should ALL be knee deep in unburned motor oil!
Funny, the last time I looked, the lakes were sparkling clean! Wonder
where all that unburned motor oil and gas went to that spewed out the
back of all the old outboards covered in oil/grease??
larry
Hell, wonder where all that jet 'A' and Avgas dumped directly out of
aircraft went, too??
Must be magic.....(c;
RichG
to back up their products! Do boat motors have some sort of "lemon laws"????
If they do, they are probably State by State.
--
rich...@yahoo.com
"cbetts" <curtisbet...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:TZ2v7.562$f6.2...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
nob...@nowhere.net
wrote:
>That letter probably won't make Honda very happy. Maybe it's what they need
>to back up their products! Do boat motors have some sort of "lemon laws"????
>If they do, they are probably State by State.
>--
Nope! It's called the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Protection Act (15USC50
section 2304) of FEDERAL law. There's two great websites for you to
read....
The Businessman's Guide to Warranty Law tells them what their
responsibilities are to comply with this law. YOU can get it on:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty/index.htm
As you can see it comes straight from the Federal Trade Commission.
It describes, in great detail, exactly what their requirements are and
what your (consumer) requirements are....which aren't much. Every
product sold with a written warranty to a consumer (you) is covered
unless the manufacturer goes through a lengthy process for an
exemption. NO boat manufacturer or engine manufacturer has an
exemption. I asked 'em!
Print it out for your reference. If the dealer starts with the BS he
owes you nothing, FAX it to him straight from your computer about
midnight....I did...(c;
The law and related information is available from the great resources
at Cornell University School of Law at:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/sales.html
Every state, except curiously Louisiana, subscribes to the Uniform
Commercial Code, of which Magnusson-Moss is a part. This website has
the complete code, including Mag-Moss, with pointers to the various
parts.
Of most interest on:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/2304.html
in Section 2304 (a)(4) is plain English I'd bet dealers and
manufacturers would rather you were ignorant. It says:
"(4) if the product (or a component part thereof) contains a
defect or malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by
the warrantor to remedy defects or malfunctions in such product,
such
WARRANTOR MUST PERMIT THE CONSUMER
to elect either a refund
for, or replacement without charge of, such product or part (as
the case may be). The Commission may by rule specify for
purposes of this paragraph, what constitutes a reasonable number
of attempts to remedy particular kinds of defects or malfunctions
under different circumstances. If the warrantor replaces a
component part of a consumer product, such replacement shall
include installing the part in the product without charge. "
I've capitalized a little piece, here, so you don't miss it. It
DOESN'T say the dealer or manufacturer or moneychanger or anyone else
has a say in whether you get a FULL REFUND or FULL REPLACEMENT when
they can't....or won't.....fix it in a reasonable number of attempts
or length of time. (Courts give them 3 attempts or 30 days, I found
out.)
Somewhere around a price of $1000, "they" seem to think this law
doesn't apply to them. It's bullshit. FTC told me it applies to
EVERY written warrantied product sold directly to the consumer! It
applies to the toaster you bought from WalMart that failed. It
applies to the BigBoat 3600 with the MassiveMax 505hp outboard, too!
Help yourself....(c;
larry
PS - Yamaha didn't think it applied to them in '97. It did....
RichG
file away the references for ( I hope - not ) any future need!
--
rich...@yahoo.com
<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3bbd0ead...@isp-east.usenetserver.com...
nob...@nowhere.net
wrote:
>Wow Larry, thanks...I'm not even the one with the current complaint. I will
>file away the references for ( I hope - not ) any future need!
>--
>rich...@yahoo.com
>
I simply returned my '97 Yamaha GP1200 Waverunner to its dealer and
refused to pay for it. They didn't dare trash my spotless 37-year
credit rating which would result in an expensive lawsuit. They never
complied with this law, but repo'ed the boat from the dealer. It was
VERY important to them that I pick the boat up, broken, which I
refused to do having a 4-year extended warranty. Common body parts
were not available on a brand new boat. The crankshaft twisted at 22
hours and it went back and forth, every week, to the incompetent
dealer for a month and a half before I'd finally had enough of his
snobbery. Yamaha's Laurie Combellick, supervisor of tech support (a
job, not an attitude) was, "Larry, there is no WAY we're EVER gonna
take back that boat!". She never did. Had I been stuck with a dead
$8400 PWC and them holding the money, I would have sued using this
law. I never had to. I let them talk me into the bogus Yamaha Credit
Card, which sets off another set of consumer protective laws. I say
it's bogus because, in reality, it's nothing more than a Household
(Finance) Retail Services revolving charge account in disguise. HRSI
threatened my deaf ears for a year or two then sold the dead account
to some suckers in California who only sent me one letter. I sent all
of them a boiler plate letter explaining this law, my return of the
defective product and an apology they got screwed buying the dead
account. I never heard from them again.
This law is written in plain English even Yamaha can understand. Boat
and engine manufacturers selling products to consumers (The magic word
is "consumers" and "written warranty") are NOT exempt from this
Federal law. One needs a good attorney who knows warranty law. He
was my best $75 investment, only sending out one letter to them
explaining the alternatives.
Best of luck to you on getting a refund or replacement. IT IS YOUR
CHOICE!
larry
Mike Moses
email response to a post on this forum re my 45hp Honda Carb problems.
I bought the Honda in '95 to replace a 25hp Evinrude that was always
sounding an overheat alarm after trolling for about 10 minutes. The best
Evinrude guy in the area could not duplicate the problem in the test tank.
Honda had this great reputation for quality and performance. I figured it
would be worth the cost. After 250 hours of use of the motor, I am of the
opinion that Honda Marine, as a product, and the service thereof, do not
offer a quality improvement over other manufacturers.
I had the motor in for a 200 hour service. I also asked that the problem I
had with the steering binding be checked out. Weeks later they were not
finished with the service. They said I had no binding problem (I must
have been hallucinating). I had to reroute and reconnect my control cable
myself after they left in a heap and I could no longer wait for them as I
was moving to Florida. And the hesitation problem I asked them to check out
was still there. They said they fired their tech but they charged me for a
service that I very much doubt they did. That was the J and I power shop in
Olympia, WA. I now live in Port Charlotte, Florida. I brought my motor in
to the local shop after my engine would not run. The told me that the
needle valves for each of the carbs (three of them) had micro cracks and
needed to be replaced. The engine ran after they fixed it but not at full
power and with a high idle after running for awhile (I suspect a vacuum
leak t hat seals after the engine heats up. They did not replace the
gaskets indicating that they probably were okay to use again). Three
cracked valves? what gives with that after 250 hours. The local shop people
seem nice enough. I figure that they calculate what I could afford in
deciding how thorough they are in their repairs. They are right. I expect
that I would be going through the roof if they charged me 1000 or 1500
dollars for full repairs and adjustments.
I am disappointed with this Honda engine and would not buy another. I also
am glad I can use a forum like this to add my experiences to those of others
having problems with the service centers who do not appear to have the same
customer satisfaction focus of the automotive service centers.
Mike
"cbetts" <curtisbet...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:JkIu7.16586$xG6.7...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
The Coach
I experience of this. I could not belive the mess a carburettor can get
into with gummy stuff which I presume was additive left over once
everything else had evaporated. Happened to me on two seperate motors at
the same time. They had been left for a couple of months without use. I
always drain the carbs by disconecting the fuel line and let the motor
use up the remaining fuel. The gumming problem has never reoccurred.
Silver Fox
nob...@nowhere.net
wrote:
In a 2-stroke, what's left is TC-W3 lube oil, which doesn't evaporate
so's you'd notice. The oil will dissolve when it gets gas again,
unless it's congealed into a too-hard mass.
The simple solution is to cut off the gas valve and run the engine
dry. Everything inside the carb is coated in TC-W3. It won't rust if
stored dry of gas. It just won't get all gummed up.
Of course, most don't do this. They're too lazy.
larry
QL
> My only question is, why would anyone buy a small Honda outboard in the
first place, probably paying a lot more for it,>
I bought my first Honda 4 stroke in the mid 80s and am still using one of
them today. In general they are much more quiet and use about half the fuel
of a two strike. They start easier and I don't have to mess with the cost
and inconvenience of mixing gas and oil. Other than routine maintenance, my
Honda's have been trouble free. BTW, they are used primarily in salt water
and have lasted much longer than I expected. I recently bought a Yamaha 4
stroke and am well pleased with it as well. The Yamaha 6 was bought for one
of my sail boats but I recently put in on a 16' x 6' Jon boat and it got the
boat on plane quicker and ran at least as fast as the 9.9 Johnson that had
been on there before. I have a 16' Carolina Skiff that presently has a 2
year old 2 stroke Johnson 25 and I am in the process of finding the best
price for a 4 stroke to replace it. I typically run 2 to 3 tanks of gas
through this engine each week and I will pay for the 4 stroke with fuel and
oil savings.
--
Quinton
"They that can give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety." Benjamin Franklin
"John" <jsca...@parker.com> wrote in message
news:177be6e6.01100...@posting.google.com...
> "cbetts" <curtisbet...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:<cBIu7.16587$xG6.7...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...
> My only question is, why would anyone buy a small Honda outboard in the
K. Smith
nob...@nowhere.net
<drift...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>nob...@nowhere.net wrote:
>
> Invaluable stuff Larry & thanks !!
>
>K
>
Do they have a similar law down in Oz?
larry
K. Smith
Not as comprehensive & it varies lots from state to state. Alas,
it takes us a while to get the idea but we're trying;-)
I have an interest in your rules so was especially glad to save
all your stuff.
Thanks again.
K
>
>
> larry
JimDandy
> The float in my 1938 Elco used to get stuck, sometimes and gas would
> spray out of the top of the float bowl where the little pin stuck out
> of it so you could flood it to start it in cold weather. It used to
> make a helluva mess in the bilge of my old rowboat, what with all the
> Flying 'A' SAE 30 motor oil in the gas at 16:1.......
>
> From all the oil dumped by old outboards into every lake in the
> country, they should ALL be knee deep in unburned motor oil!
>
> Funny, the last time I looked, the lakes were sparkling clean! Wonder
> where all that unburned motor oil and gas went to that spewed out the
> back of all the old outboards covered in oil/grease??
>
Uh, yeah, right. And the Exxon Valdez did no long term harm, I
suppose?
> larry
>
> Hell, wonder where all that jet 'A' and Avgas dumped directly out of
> aircraft went, too??
>
> Must be magic.....(c;
It evaporates, then because of so little fuel in the atmosphere
compared with other fluid particulates, isn't noticed. At least until
the rain is acidic enough to start killing trees and peeling the paint
off of your house.
nob...@nowhere.net
<drift...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> Not as comprehensive & it varies lots from state to state. Alas,
>it takes us a while to get the idea but we're trying;-)
>
> I have an interest in your rules so was especially glad to save
>all your stuff.
>
>Thanks again.
>
>K
>
Print our law out and get the attention of your elected officials.
Worth a try...on the national level.