Precautionary tale about Fischer Panda generators
Geoffrey W. Schultz
figure out what equipment to use and maybe more importantly, which
equipment NOT to use. In this vein I'll provide input on my experience
with a Fischer Panda generator. Take what you may from this.
I installed a Fisher Panda 4.2 KW raw water cooled generator in my 40'
Freedom sloop named BlueJacket per the recommendation of Freedom. New
England Boatworks (NEB) of Portsmouth, RI installed it in September of
1999. NEB is an authorized Fischer Panda dealer and installer. While NEB
was installing the unit they dropped it. The unit was shipped back to
Fischer Panda in Ft. Lauderdale, FL for repair and came back supposedly
having been fully repaired.
In October of 1999 the unit was burned-in at the dock and had the 35-hour
maintenance performed by NEB. That fall, on a trip from Portsmouth, RI to
the BVIs, the generator stopped running and wouldn't start. At this point
it had about 60 hours on it. After many e-mails with tech support I
determined that the fuel solenoid valve connector was faulty. This was
replaced on January 18, 2000.
On January 25, 2000 the generator suddenly began running too fast, or at
least that was my assessment. Many e-mails were exchanged with tech
support and many hours were spent on my part trying to diagnose the
problem. I finally gave up as this was beyond my level of expertise.
In June of 2000, which is 9 months after having the genset installed, I
returned to RI where NEB looked at the genset. They spent a lot of time and
finally gave up and shipped it back to Ft. Lauderdale where it was
determined that the some of the governor weights had come loose or off. I
was also informed that they had found that the piston rings and cylinder
were rusted so they re-bored the engine. Finally in November of 2000 it was
re-installed in BlueJacket. Once again it was burned in at the dock and had
another "35 hour" maintenance performed on it. This was just in time for a
return trip to the BVIs. The unit had less than 100 hours on it, most of
those burning it in.
During my trip from Portsmouth, RI to the BVIs the unit began to leak
diesel at the fuel solenoid valve. Somehow the solenoid shaft had broken
lose from the base. Fischer Panda stated that they had seen this before
and replaced the part for me, even though it was "out of warranty", having
passed the 1 year mark. This was mid-December, 2000.
From January to April, 2001 the unit ran relatively well. I continued to
have problems with the fuel solenoid electrical connector losing
connection. In April I put BlueJacket onto the hard in Grenada where was
Awl Gripped. Before doing so I ran the system using fresh water at the raw
water intake. The genset had 550 hours on it.
When I returned in September of 2001, the genset would not start. A local
diesel/genset dealer determined that the reason that it wouldn't start was
due to a lack of compression as evidenced by a large amount of blow-back
through the crankcase. I had seen this while I was cruising during the
winter, but hadn't understood the implications. I religiously maintained
oil levels and changed oil per schedule.
After a day or so of trying to get the engine to start, it finally started.
However, it blows a ton of soot and black smoke when loaded above 15A,
whereas it's rated for 34A. I continued to run the generator for a 2.5
month trip from Grenada to Curacao, where the boat is currently sitting.
Other than the starter solenoid failing, the unit ran OK, but was limited
to 15A.
I determined that Tony Rushton was the president of Fischer Panda in Ft.
Lauderdale and he provided me with his e-mail address. Hoping that he
would help me resolve these issues, I sent a detailed e-mail to him
describing my problems. After a week of not hearing anything, I sent
another e-mail. Two weeks later, still nothing. Clearly he has no
interest in attempting to resolve my problems.
After it became apparent that Fischer Panda wasn't going to provide any
support I had a diesel mechanic in Curacao pull the genset to determine the
root cause of the problem. It turns out that the block is cracked. Now I
have no way of determining when, where, or how this occurred, but I would
guess that it occurred when the engine was dropped. This certainly
explains the rusted cylinder which was found before. How they missed the
crack is beyond me. It also explains why it wouldn't start in Grenada as
the rings were rusted again and this time the rust is sufficient to cause
the blow-by, lack of compression, and associated soot & black smoke.
All in all my experience with Fischer Panda has been very negative. I
could never recommend one of their generators to anyone. Maybe the cause
of the problem was the initial drop, but the fact that they didn't detect
the cracked block on any of the two occasions that the unit was back to the
factory is inexcusable. And the fact that they are ignoring my e-mails
simply can't be forgiven.
-- Geoff Schultz
S/V BlueJacket
P.S. I just got the quote for a replacement Ferryman diesel. $3100...
Rob Howes
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9177644D65560s...@207.172.3.51...
> One of the things that I enjoy about using news groups is my ability to
> figure out what equipment to use and maybe more importantly, which
Phew!!! Don't you just hate it when that happens?
Doug Dotson
they tend to burn out either a diode or capacitor (can't remember
which) and the replacement is $200. Sounds to me like you have
a case against the folks that dropped it in the first place. The rust
in the cylinders should have sent up a red flag to any competent
mechanic. I just bought an Entec-West and am in the process
of installing it. We'll see how that goes.
doug
Gould 0738
with a
re-work on a generator that was dropped during installation.
You paid for a new generator, not a bust-up
disaster that was so wounded it had to go back for "remanufacture." Too bad
about the drop, but at that point it should have been the shop's problem and
they should have provided you with a brand new, undamaged generator.
Brian Mitchell
news:Xns9177644D65560s...@207.172.3.51...
> figure out what equipment to use and maybe more importantly, which
> equipment NOT to use. In this vein I'll provide input on my experience
> with a Fischer Panda generator. Take what you may from this.
> believeable stuff about Fisher Panda generator snipped ......<
Friends of mine fitted a FP genny to their Oyster 435, spent a fortune on it
with a professional installation then spent a second fortune on subsequent
repairs over the next 3 years culminating in a small fire in the lazarette
where it lived which was the final straw and they sold it for spares for
$100.
Cheers, Brian.
Seahag
know.
My parents had all sorts of problems with their Mainship engines a few
years ago and Mainship was really fantastic about their customer
support. My folks took the boat to Florida to be repaired, ended up
with a new engine, gas for the trip, new carpeting, new tranny (IIRC),
and new upholstery....all free!
Seahag
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9177644D65560s...@207.172.3.51...
Arnold
You should invest some time in yourself. Learn about generators so
that you could avoid falling victim to other's stupidity. Secondly,
why are you putting a cheap Chinese generator in a rather nice boat?
Why are you skimping? It sounds to me like you set yourself up for
this one.
The big lesson here is: Think for yourself, you can't pay others to do
it for you.
Arny
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9177644D65560s...@207.172.3.51>...
Geoffrey W. Schultz
I'm back in the States for the holidays. Sound pretty grim...
-------------------------------
I asked (the mechanic) to see the crack in the block before I told them to
go ahead with the new engine. Leslie couldn't really show me the crack.
However the cylinder walls are very deeply scored (gouged might be a better
word), the cylinder rod bearings are also very scored, the head gasket was
burned away and the side of the engine is solid carbon - it almost looks
melted but I didn't get into that. When you turn the crank shaft by hand
there is a tight spot you can hardly get past. If there is not a crack then
the block is distorted from being dropped. Only thing that could cause it
according to the mechanic. With so few hours on the engine there is no way
that it should be scored the way it is.
It could possibly be repaired but the hours to do so and the parts and
machining required would probably equal the cost of a new engine. Then
there is no guarantee that the block distortion wouldn't cause the same
problems all over again.
David Smalley
>
> When you turn the crank shaft by hand
> there is a tight spot you can hardly get past. If there is not a crack then
> the block is distorted from being dropped. Only thing that could cause it
> according to the mechanic.
Actually that sounds more like a twisted crankshaft than a cracked block
to me.
Rod McInnis
Karl Denninger wrote:
>
>
> The people who dropped the unit should be required to make good on this and
> give you a new engine. Period.
It sounds like the dealer did make an honest attempt to correct the
situation. They dropped it, then returned it to the manufacturer for
repair. If the manufacture claims to have made it "like new" again,
then the dealer did their job. There is certainly no reason to believe
that the failure of the fuel solenoid valve was related to dropping, and
the governor would seem rather questionable as well (how far was this
engine dropped??). The cracked block, well, that could be from being
dropped, but there is not any way to prove that.
It sounds like the dealer made a reasonable attempt to make things
right, and very little proof that the problems are related, so there
would be little chance of winning a court case against them.
Rod
Geoffrey W. Schultz
> It sounds like the dealer did make an honest attempt to correct the
> situation. They dropped it, then returned it to the manufacturer for
> repair. If the manufacture claims to have made it "like new" again,
> then the dealer did their job. There is certainly no reason to believe
> that the failure of the fuel solenoid valve was related to dropping,
> and the governor would seem rather questionable as well (how far was
> this engine dropped??). The cracked block, well, that could be from
> being dropped, but there is not any way to prove that.
>
> It sounds like the dealer made a reasonable attempt to make things
> right, and very little proof that the problems are related, so there
> would be little chance of winning a court case against them.
It was dropped off a forklift while the boat was on the hard. I don't know
how high up it was when dropped.
-- Geoff
Dale Anderson
wrote:
>
>
>Karl Denninger wrote:
>>
>>
>> The people who dropped the unit should be required to make good on this and
>> give you a new engine. Period.
>
>
> It sounds like the dealer did make an honest attempt to correct the
>situation. They dropped it, then returned it to the manufacturer for
>repair. If the manufacture claims to have made it "like new" again,
>then the dealer did their job.
But, he paid for a "new" unit and the dealer (the manufacturer's
representative) damaged it during installation. When a manufacturer
fixes a damaged product, it is not new anymore, so there should have
been an adjustment of the price or an offer to replace it with a new
unit, as was contracted for and paid for. All you have to do is look at
all the 'factory refurbished" tools on the market that are available at
a discount from the new price to see how it should be handled.
Dale Anderson
spec...@frontier.net
Durango, Colorado
Gould 0738
>
>Unless he received some kind of adjustment for it being a refurbished unit
>I bet he can still go back after them.
>
There's one other possibility here. Not saying it's so, but it might be.
Shopper walks into boatyard.
"What would you charge me to install a generator?"
"Well, it looks like it will run right around $xxxxx."
"Oh, dear. I'm really not prepared for that.
Any chance a guy could find a used one in good condition?"
"These things are usually shot before somebody else pulls one out, but we do
have a deal on this unit that was dropped off a forklift and had to be sent
back to the factory for repairs......."
In that particular case, if the yard fully disclosed everything they knew about
the unit at the beginning of the transaction, the yard would have a fairly
defensible position. The consumer pays his money, takes his chances, and
sometimes he'll win. Othertimes, not.
Geoffrey W. Schultz
news:9vegc0$rmk$0...@dosa.alt.net:
>
> In article <3C1A6C53...@TiVo.com>,
> Doesn't make a bit of difference.
>
> New != refurbished.
>
> He was sold new.
>
> Unless he received some kind of adjustment for it being a refurbished
> unit I bet he can still go back after them.
I just sent e-mail off to my lawyer asking what my options are. While I
agree that an attempt was made to make things right, it's clear that the
combined effort failed. While there's no clear blame on either the dealers
part or Fischer Panda's part, the fault lies between them. It's just
finger pointing. I think that a judge can figure out the percentage blame
and apportion it.
-- Geoff
AP
he did not insist on a new unit day 1 knowing that this one was
dropped. Heck, if you think about it, most people demand a discount on
a something as stupid as a coffee maker if the box has been opened or
insist on an unopened box.
Hind site is 20/20 and I don't mean to add salt to the wound, I hope
this is a learning experiance for all of us though.
On 14 Dec 2001 18:14:07 -0600, Anonymous
<anon...@anonymous.anonymous> wrote:
>They dropped it and broke it before it was ever installed. He didn't even have
>title to t yet. It should have been replaced with a pristine new unit. Period.
>Simple as that.
>
>
>
>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
>http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
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TAWill s/v Lucky Strike
> Freedom sloop named BlueJacket per the recommendation of Freedom. New
> England Boatworks (NEB) of Portsmouth, RI installed it in September of
> 1999. NEB is an authorized Fischer Panda dealer and installer. While NEB
> was installing the unit they dropped it. The unit was shipped back to
> Fischer Panda in Ft. Lauderdale, FL for repair and came back supposedly
> having been fully repaired.
Pretty bad deal, Geoff. My thought is that your only claim would be
with the dealer, NEB, and the best you could expect of them would be
to pay you what you paid them initially. Although you had expense,
inconvenience etc as a result of what is clearly their problem, there
is generally no contingent liability created in the sale of goods. The
manufacturer in Florida, probably just an importer/dealer, would have
a very difficult time finding a hairline crack, or any other of the
many deficiencies that could result from NEB's freefall drop of the
unit, and could not reasonably be expected to do so. Their lack of
response to your e-mails is inexcuseable though. It seems to me they
should be just as interested in helping you recover from NEB as are
you. You might consider talking with them and asking for their help to
pressure NEB to settle up before you get additional expense wrapped up
in legal costs.
Your fellow helmsman ... TOwel
JDavis1277
quality product from China? Shoes and shirts, maybe. But engine driven
equipment?
Butch
Gould 0738
Did they drop it when they were intially attempting to install it for *you*, or
had they dropped it previously and then sold it to you with a discount and a
disclosure?
Geoffrey W. Schultz
-- Geoff
ap...@roers.com (AP) wrote in
news:3c1b925c....@news.bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com:
w4...@home.com
<schu...@ultranet.com> wrote:
>
>I just sent e-mail off to my lawyer asking what my options are. While I
>agree that an attempt was made to make things right, it's clear that the
>combined effort failed. While there's no clear blame on either the dealers
>part or Fischer Panda's part, the fault lies between them. It's just
>finger pointing. I think that a judge can figure out the percentage blame
>and apportion it.
>
>-- Geoff
Geoff, just so you have first hand warranty protection information,
you might like to read the FTC manual to businesspersons at:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty/index.htm
Click on the page to open to the table of contents. Great reference
for what business owes the consumer and doesn't owe the consumer. He
owes you. Read, carefully the parts about "Implied warranty of
Merchantability" and "Implied warranty of suitability for a particular
purpose". As much as they lie through their teeth trying to weasle
out of these two important parts of the LAW, they CANNOT weasle out of
these no matter what it says in the written warranty. Read these
parts for yourself....(c;
The whole law and lots of information about the laws are available at
the Cornell University Law School's website on:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/sales.html
Every state except Louisiana, not exactly noted for its honest
politics, has accepted the UCC, the Uniform Commercial Code. The
state laws say it....The FEDERAL laws say it. I returned a defective
piece of Yamaha Waverunner crap I bought in 1997 which never ran
right. They have 3 attempts and/or 30 days to complete repairs to
YOUR satisfaction, not theirs! If YOU are not satisfied the law they
can't weasle out of says it's the CONSUMER's option to replace the
unit or get a full refund! Don't let them bullshit you into some
tradeup scheme boat dealers always try to pull when they are cornered
to suck up even more of the consumer's money on defective products.
As these problems ARE related to when the unit was in warranty, these
laws ARE in force, in full. That unit was NOT "ready for sale" after
it was dropped. It's up to YOU, not them.....
larry
been there, done that.......dammit.
Steve
mechanic couldn't show you the crack then how do you know it is cracked.
Some Dye Pentetrant or Magnetic Partical inspection could easily prove that
is cracked. If it isn't cracked then I don't think you have a claim since so
much time and operating hours has gone by.
BTW. The yard that was handling and dropped the gen. set must have had some
kind of liability insurance. I've been in the business and any yard or
business worth their salt wouldn't operate without insurance against such
accidental damage. It may be too late to file a claim against their
insurance. On second thought, a fix 'on the cheap' kinda sounds like
something that an insurance adjuster might have recommend. He wouldn't be at
all concerned about the soiled reputation of the yard or the equipment
manufacturer.
My opinion, FWIW
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Geoffrey W. Schultz
Wonderful amo for my fight...
-- Geoff
w4...@home.com wrote in news:3c1bd10f...@isp-east.usenetserver.com:
Geoffrey W. Schultz
news:u1nl6sf...@corp.supernews.com:
> I don't think you can distort a cast iron block without cracking it. If
> you mechanic couldn't show you the crack then how do you know it is
> cracked. Some Dye Pentetrant or Magnetic Partical inspection could
> easily prove that is cracked. If it isn't cracked then I don't think
> you have a claim since so much time and operating hours has gone by.
First off, the boat is in Curacao & I'm having the work done while I'm back
in the States for the holidays. Another boat that I'm travelling with is
overseeing this and providing the reports to me. I haven't personally seen
the damage. I've asked him to photograph it and e-mail the photos to me.
I'll post them here for viewing.
Secondly, the generator has basically never run. It was installed just
before I headed down to the BVIs in 1999. The govonor weights came off
within the first 100 hours of operation (of which 35 were burn-in). Since
there was no place to have it worked on in the BVIs, it wasn't repaired
until the summer of 2000. At that point they also found that the rings
were rusted in & Fischer Panda rebored the cylinder. I believe that this
was caused by the same problem that is plauging me now.
I then got about 450 hours of operation on the generator over 4 months. I
believe that I was having problems during this period as I was seeing
blowback. At one point I changed the oil & left the oil fill cap off when
I started the generator. Oil blew all over the place. I didn't realize
that this was incorrect, but I sure do now!
At that point the generator sat on the hard while the boat was being
repainted and when it was relaunched, the genset wouldn't start. When I
finally got it started it was blowing smoke & had poor compression.
As far as I'm concerned, the unit never ran during the first year of
operation. To include this in my warrenty period is rediculous. Then well
within the next year of operation the motor began failing and has ended up
where in the current start of repair.
People keep saying that I should go after the boat yard. I've decided to
only go after 1 entity...Fischer Panda. They were supposed to have made
the motor whole after New England Boatworks (NEB) initially dropped it. If
they couldn't do that, then they should never have shipped it back to NEB.
Fischer Panda holds the warrenty on the genset, not NEB. I think that it
would take a court to apportion blame and costs, and I don't have the time
or desire to go that route.
-- Geoff
w4...@home.com
<schu...@ultranet.com> wrote:
>Thanks so very much for this posting. The web sites listed are great.
>Wonderful amo for my fight...
>
>-- Geoff
>
After you've given up and your dealer starts to get nasty, FAX the
Businessperson's Guide to him at midnight to his office fax machine so
HE'LL have the copy........(c;.........I did.
My immediate recommendation is to contact an ATTORNEY skilled in
warrantee law. I spent $25/letter to get him to contact Yamahaha on
the law firms official-looking letterhead. It put a stop to a lot of
the nonsense when he told them he would be representing me and they
must only contact him in the future. Contact your local bar
association....no no, not the one at the yacht club, the lawyer's bar
association...to find an appropriate lawyer. Look for one with the
biggest waterfront mansions, palatial offices and expensive cars.
Nasty Lawyer is better....(c;
larry
Christopher Douglas
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9177644D65560s...@207.172.3.51...
Maui
>that this was incorrect, but I sure do now!
As much as I disliked dealing with Fischer Panda when I was evaluating
gensets last year (and bought a new 8 kw Northern Lights) - there's
some slightly fishy about all your whining - and the quote above is a
good example. So you blew the oil out and ran the genset for how many
hours before you shut it down - low oil pressure sender or not.
Interesting - they drop it and you accept it? then you install a
repaired-new genset, run it for just a few hours and head for BVI. In
BVI it craps out and you can't be bothered to take it over to the USVI
to get it looked at - knowing that it was dropped. Is that because it
was in charter ?? You knew it had a 1 year warranty and the clock was
ticking. You don't really seem to pay much attention to this till it
quits.
Why don't you tell us the whole story instead of the 60 Minutes
one-sided version.
As I said - I didn't like them, didn't like the engineering and didn't
buy one - but ....
On 16 Dec 2001 16:03:58 GMT, "Geoffrey W. Schultz"
Geoffrey W. Schultz
it, saw oil blowing out, and shut it down. Total time, maybe 30 seconds.
And it wasn't empty of oil. It just made a mess.
2) The genset should have been installed well before heading for the BVIs
the first year. However, due to all of the delay due to the initial damage
it wasn't installed until just before departing. This was not the way that
I wanted to have things happen, but when you have crew lined up and a
weather window, you leave.
3) There are no Fischer Panda authorized dealers in the BVIs or USVIs.
This is a big lesson that I learned. If you're going to extensively
cruise, make sure that there are dealers who can support you along the way.
The biggest problem is that they are relatively high tech due to their
compact size, and as a result require special training. A generator is
much more than just a motor.
I must admit that I had assumed that they would extend the warranty as it
basically was off-line for the entire first year. When they refused to do
that I was agast.
That same year I had a water maker installed which was not producing water
at the specified rate. I ran over to St. Thomas and had Reefco repair it.
I would have been glad to have the generator repaired at the same time.
And no, the boat has never been in charter.
4) I've been trying to represent this as fairly as possible. I've stated
the facts as precisely as I can. I have a ton of e-mail and ships/maint
logs that I've used to provide supporting detail. I'm trying to keep
emotion out of this. I just want the facts to speak for themselves.
-- Geoff
Ma...@FAKE-ADDRESS.com (Maui) wrote in
news:3c1ea520...@news.mminternet.com:
Doug Dotson
upon first use rather than date of purchase. I suppose that such
a thing could exist as long as there was some way of ascertaining
the date of first use.
doug
Geoffrey W. Schultz
me to discuss my problem. He was very apologetic for dropping the ball.
We had a very constructive conversation and we agreed that:
1) Fischer Panda will ship a new Farryman engine to Curacao.
2) I will ship my old unit back to them.
3) They will determine what the cause of the problem is
4) If it is determined that this isn't a Fischer Panda problem, I'll pay
for the new engine.
This was actually my proposal. You might think that I'm crazy for agreeing
to point 4, but I was about to buy a new engine from a distributor anyhow.
I believe that FP will be fair in their analysis, and with all of the
pressure coming from other organizations within FP (I e-mail blanketed the
US and German parent site), I think that they'll see things my way. Or at
least I hope that they will. I want to show them that I'm very willing to
work with them, and hopefully they'll respond in kind.
Things are looking up right now. I'll keep you posted.
-- Geoff
Rod McInnis
Dale Anderson wrote:
> But, he paid for a "new" unit and the dealer (the manufacturer's
> representative) damaged it during installation. When a manufacturer
> fixes a damaged product, it is not new anymore,
I am sure that lawyers can debate the fine points, but if a unit has
not been previously sold, installed or significantly used it can still
be called "new". Take cars as a good example. You go to a dealer and
test drive cars. The car you finally buy may have been test driven by
several other people and have a hundred miles on it. The car has been
obviously driven, yet it can still be sold as new because it has never
been sold.
As for damage, the car example is another excellent example. How many
cars are perfect when they leave the dealer? It is standard practice to
have the buyer bring the car back to the dealer to fix things that were
wrong when it went out the door in the first place. The fact that there
was some defect in the car doesn't change the cars "new" status.
> All you have to do is look at
> all the 'factory refurbished" tools on the market that are available at
> a discount from the new price to see how it should be handled.
Ah, the good old "factory refurbished" misnomer.
There are very few cases where the factory actually "refurbishes" a
unit. Let's take cell phones as an example. Modern electronic items
such as cell phones are not something that can effectively be repaired.
The technology changes so fast that a specific model is only made for a
short time and replacement parts become unavailable just a few months
after production of the unit stops. The case is not designed to be
opened, and the system so integrated that fixing it amounts to changing
most of the internal parts. If there is something wrong with them it is
cheaper to just throw it away and replace it with new.
Yet there is a large market for "refurbished" phones. Yeah, right.
They aren't refurbished, they are "used", although generally only
lightly and usually there is nothing wrong with the phone. You will
usually see this "refurbished" offer on the lowest price point phone.
The deals that the wireless companies push is "service + phone for low
$$$". To get you to sign on the dotted line they offer a 30 day
evaluation. What happens during that 30 days is that the customer
realizes that they really wanted the phone with more features, so they
trade up in that 30 day window. Now the wireless company has this phone
that has been used for about a week, which they get returned (with all
the packing material and accessories) and they sell it as refurbished.
Factory refurbished can be a great deal, but it doesn't necessarily
mean that the unit was ever returned to the factory.
Rod
Craig Kossowski
> 4) If it is determined that this isn't a Fischer Panda problem, I'll pay
> for the new engine.
> This was actually my proposal. You might think that I'm crazy for agreeing
> to point 4, but I was about to buy a new engine from a distributor anyhow.
I would suggest that you get in writing an agreement that allows for the
return of the original engine to you if they determine it wasn't their
problem... That way a) you can check it for yourself if you doubt them,
and moreover, b) they will _know_ you can check it yourself afterwards if
they refuse replacement.
Craig K.
David Smalley
>
> In article <9vmcks$for$2...@knot.queensu.ca>,
Ditto.
Steve
Sales Manager, Fisher Panda Generators??
I got one, to my surprise, this morning.
It doesn't sound like they agree with Mr. Schultz at all and from the tone
of the email I got, I'm surprised they are even offering to exchange the
engine.
Anyone who wants a copy of the email I got can respond directly to my email
and I will forward it.
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Doug Dotson
fault and replace the engine for free.
doug
m...@ccr.org
Will people get a grip here??
Everyone is so friggin' paranoid it's just silly.
There's a very good chance that F-P is trying to do the
right thing and stand being their product. EVERY company
screws up once in a while, especially when they are represented
by distributors who do things like drop their products. you
don't know that the distributor told F-P what happend. there
is a LOT people here don't know and yet everyone is running
around play "Net.Lawyer" accusing people and companies of
assorted mopery and dopery.
Yes, Something Bad (TM) happened and yes, it wasn't handled
right from one end to the other, SO FAR.
I've been on both ends of situations like this and
sometimes SHIT HAPPENS - IT'S A BOAT - DEAL WITH IT.
My CAT 3196's have both been rebuilt because the original
faulty aftercooler design sprayed seawater into the intake
air, lunching at least the top-end of the engines (depending
how how long it went undetected).
the good news is that after being drug through a knot-hole
by the CEO of the boat builder, CAT fixed the engines on their
nickel. the bad news is that i lost most of this summer with
the boat being down, taken apart, waiting for Godot, etc.
BUT IT'S A BOAT - THEY ALL SUCK SOME OF THE TIME, and many
of them suck MOST of the time.
Yes, it's utterly maddening, but maybe, just maybe, there's
a reason why a number of expensive builders spec Fischer-Panda
gensets, and maybe they can earn back your trust if you let them
try.
and maybe not. that's for them to try and you to judge,
but please, everyone, take a deep breath here and cool off
the rabid foaming.
I haven't seen this much heat and so little light since COM-PRIV days
cheers,
-mo
Harry Krause
> >
> >Will people get a grip here??
> >
> >Everyone is so friggin' paranoid it's just silly.
> >There's a very good chance that F-P is trying to do the
> >right thing and stand being their product. EVERY company
> >screws up once in a while, especially when they are represented
> >by distributors who do things like drop their products. you
> >don't know that the distributor told F-P what happend. there
> >is a LOT people here don't know and yet everyone is running
> >around play "Net.Lawyer" accusing people and companies of
> >assorted mopery and dopery.
> >
> >Yes, Something Bad (TM) happened and yes, it wasn't handled
> >right from one end to the other, SO FAR.
> >
> >I've been on both ends of situations like this and
> >sometimes SHIT HAPPENS - IT'S A BOAT - DEAL WITH IT.
> >
> >My CAT 3196's have both been rebuilt because the original
> >faulty aftercooler design sprayed seawater into the intake
> >air, lunching at least the top-end of the engines (depending
> >how how long it went undetected).
> >
> >the good news is that after being drug through a knot-hole
> >by the CEO of the boat builder, CAT fixed the engines on their
> >nickel. the bad news is that i lost most of this summer with
> >the boat being down, taken apart, waiting for Godot, etc.
I feel your pain. I played Estragon for three weeks at a coffeehouse in New Haven
and that S.O.B. Godot never showed...
Geoffrey W. Schultz
news:u222hr5...@corp.supernews.com:
I was provided a copy of the letter which went out from Fischer Panda. I
consider their response to be very professional. It raises a valid concern
that the genset was mis-installed. However, I've reviewed their
installation specs vs. how it was installed and I didn't find anything out
of spec. If they were concerned about the installation I'm amazed that they
didn't raise the issue with the boat yard when it came back the second time.
-- Geoff
Steve
NEB, and their insurance company should be the first in line for
responsibility for this problem. It was at their choice that they send the
damage unit back to F.P. for repairs. They had the option at that time to
install a replacement unit and let the insurance company dispose of or
repair the damaged unit. F.P. was only providing a service in repairing the
damage. This was not Warrantee repairs. The repair made later in the service
life of this unit was also not Warrantee repair but a 'customer service'
since the unit was previously damaged by NEB.
It is also Mr. Schultz responsibility for knowingly accepting the damage
unit from NEB.
It is because of this type of situation that most manufactures (and
insurance companies) would prefer that the questionable, damaged equipment
be disposed of through a third part as 'freight damaged' equipment so that
it can be sold 'As Is' without the manufacturer being held responsible.
I have been in the business and I have owned a boat most of my life and feel
I have looked at the information in this thread objectively before
injecting the above opinion.
My opinion, FWIW.
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
w4...@home.com
wrote:
>You haven't seen the email from Panda yet.... some of us have.
>
>--
>--
>Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
>http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective Consulting
>http://childrens-justice.org SIGN THE UPREPA PETITION TODAY
>
I got mine, today. From the grammar, I'd say he's, probably,
Chinese.....
larry
David Smalley
>
> How many people in the this thread got a email from Chad Godwin, Marine
> Sales Manager, Fisher Panda Generators??
>
> I got one, to my surprise, this morning.
>
> It doesn't sound like they agree with Mr. Schultz at all and from the tone
> of the email I got, I'm surprised they are even offering to exchange the
> engine.
I got it too (Lord knows why).
Frankly it completely soured me on their company and I now have
absolutely no wish to ever darken their doorstep.
Methinks poor Mr. Shultz is going to end up buying another generator.
Insomniac
"Karl Denninger" <ka...@FS.Denninger.net> wrote in message
news:9vrdbs$vvu$0...@pita.alt.net...
>
> In article <Xns917CC4EE09C13s...@207.172.3.51>,
> Geoffrey W. Schultz <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote:
> It was indeed professional.
>
> But to raise the issue of an installation issue NOW, when THEIR AUTHORIZED
> DEALER did the install, is disingenuous at best and an indication of
> potential bad faith in the offing at worst.
>
> Second, I'm very unhappy that Panda is trying to do damage control
PRIVATELY
> with a distribution email rather than bring it HERE. That could easily be
> nothing more than not understanding the net well - but then again, it
might
> not.
>
> Geoff, if I were you I'd make sure you're covered in terms of insuring
that
> you get the engine back if they deny warranty coverage, and make sure you
> get serial numbers off the block BEFORE you allow them to have it.
>
> Finally, if they DO deny coverage, how much is the proposed new engine
they
> want to sell you, plus installation? Are you better or worse off doing
THAT
> rather than pulling the genset and replacing it with something else?
> Remember that if you replace the engine you STILL have a limited warranty
> on the rest of the set. If its anywhere close in terms of cost you may be
> ahead to use the thing as a mooring anchor.
>
> Its all about insurance - to cover your butt with - at this point.
>
> It bites that you're not in a position to actually be there and inspect
the
> damage and be a part of determining the cause.
>
> BTW, I have their sales brochure here in front of me. They claim their
> warranty is "unlike any other generators". Well, ok. They warranty the
> rotor indefinitely. They warranty the generator back end for five years.
> But they warranty the engine only for ONE year.
>
> Contrast that with the new Kohler 8kw unit that I just had installed to
> replace my failed Onan.
>
> Five years or 2,000 hours, covering the engine AND electrical end.
>
> Including labor to pull and replace if necessary.
>
> $100 "per incident" charge in years 3-5, $0 for the first two.
>
> "The unbeatable Panda warranty"?
>
> Its not even close by my calculation. Unbeatable HOW? That the rotor has
a
> lifetime warranty? That's nice, but irrelavent if the engine blows up
after
> two years!
>
> (And oh, by the way, that Kohler was $6,600; the best quote I had on the
> Panda of equivalent output was $14,000. I could EAT one of the Kohlers
> ENTIRELY and STILL be ahead!)
>
> The Entec-West 4200 looks to be powered with a Farymann W18 engine from
what
> I have here - same motor that's in the Panda. Entek West's unit is
actually
> LIGHTER (170 lbs .vs. 233), is smaller (20" long .vs. 21, 13" wide .vs.
15,
> and 18.5" high .vs. 21!) AND is heat-exchanger cooled - a big plus for a
> saltwater boat. With the enclosure the Entec-West is an inch or so larger
> in all dimensions than the Panda, still compares well weight wise (they're
> a pound different) AND their enclosure is stainless steel - not
fiberglass.
>
> Finally, the EW-4200D in the enclosure specs out at 63Dba at one meter.
> Panda's 4200 specs at 66dba @ 1 Meter.
>
> 3dB is SIGNIFICANT.
>
> The Entec-West is QUITE A BIT quieter in its enclosure.
>
> (Also, they have designed the unit so it can be hand-started.... that's
> nice, particularly when your battery is completely dead!)
>
> I'd price the Entec West 4200 before allowing Panda to sell me a new
engine,
> but that's just me.
>
> BTW, they'll give you $2k for the scrap Panda 4200 according to their web
> page, and they arrange for and pay for the shipping. :-)
Steve
""
To all concerned,
I was at New England Boatyard when the generator was damaged, I personally
show the damage. The unit had minor cosmetic damage to the generator end (
sound capsule was damaged, generator casting had scratches and internal
rubber mount damaged). It was my decision to send back to our office in
Ft.Lauderdale to correct the problems which were minor.
The issues Mr. Schultz is and has experienced have nothing to do with the
dropping of the generator. We have handle all his issue in a prompt manner.
The unit has had a history of water in the engine which could have resulted
from the installation. Our office has installed a new piston, rings,
complete cylinder head and test run the unit is the past due to water
intrusion. This was done as a courtesy to our dealer New England boatyard.
If any of our customers has any problems we always are willing to handle
them in a fair manner to resolve the issues. I do encourage anyone with a
Fischer Panda problem top contact me directly and discuss the issue.
Best regards,
Chad Godwin
Fischer Panda Generators
Marine Sales Manager ""
Insomniac
"Steve" <est...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:u22hs9c...@corp.supernews.com...
Geoffrey W. Schultz
> news:u222hr5...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> How many people in the this thread got a email from Chad Godwin,
> Marine Sales Manager, Fisher Panda Generators??
>
> I got one, to my surprise, this morning.
>
> It doesn't sound like they agree with Mr. Schultz at all and from the
> tone of the email I got, I'm surprised they are even offering to
> exchange the engine.
>
> Anyone who wants a copy of the email I got can respond directly to my
> email and I will forward it.
According to the letter that FP sent out, the "Marine Manager" of FP was at
the boatyard when the generator was dropped and stated in his letter that
"The unit had minor cosmetic damage to the generator end (sound capsule was
damaged, generator casting had scratches and internal rubber mount
damaged)."
Certainly I can believe that there was undetectable internal damage, but
with that statement how can I blame the boat yard for all of what has
transpired as to date? It's much easier to say than prove. FP has assumed
responsibility for the engine based upon their analysis. I can assure you
that if they don't take responsibility I will have the engine shipped to my
home and an independent analysis (above and beyond what I'll get from
Curacao) will occur. I won't give them a cake-walk here.
Karl Denninger raises some very interesting points with their warrenty
claims. Clearly their warrenty doesn't match others in the current market.
But then again, they only claim that warrenty is "unlike any other
generator." One has a hard time arguing, as that statement is as ambiguous
as anything that I've heard.
I will say that this has been quite an education for me. I hope that others
have learned from it as well. Part of my reason for posting this is to
raise the level of knowledge of everyone who might be put into this
position. If I were given the opportunity to do this over again I would
never have accepted the generator after being dropped. You live and you
learn. Hopefully others can learn through my mistake(s).
-- Geoff
Buck Frobisher
"I personally show the damage"? (and so on)
oy vey.
--
"Error in REALITY.SYS. Run FANTASY.COM? (Y/N)"
regards,
Frank Johansen
Aurora, Ontario
"Steve" <est...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:u22hs9c...@corp.supernews.com...
Harry Krause
> was dis translate frum de horiginal Russion?
>
> "I personally show the damage"? (and so on)
>
> oy vey.
>
> --
> "Error in REALITY.SYS. Run FANTASY.COM? (Y/N)"
>
> regards,
>
> Frank Johansen
> Aurora, Ontario
Even so, he writes better than at least a third of the posters who frequent
these places...
Seahag
think).
Velly Eenterestink.......
Seahag
"TAWill s/v Lucky Strike" <mountain...@netzero.net> wrote in
message news:ba9625cb.01121...@posting.google.com...
> "Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns9177644D65560s...@207.172.3.51>...
> > I installed a Fisher Panda 4.2 KW raw water cooled generator in my
40'
> > Freedom sloop named BlueJacket per the recommendation of Freedom.
New
> > England Boatworks (NEB) of Portsmouth, RI installed it in September
of
> > 1999. NEB is an authorized Fischer Panda dealer and installer.
While NEB
> > was installing the unit they dropped it. The unit was shipped back
to
> > Fischer Panda in Ft. Lauderdale, FL for repair and came back
supposedly
> > having been fully repaired.
>
>
> Pretty bad deal, Geoff. My thought is that your only claim would be
> with the dealer, NEB, and the best you could expect of them would be
> to pay you what you paid them initially. Although you had expense,
> inconvenience etc as a result of what is clearly their problem, there
> is generally no contingent liability created in the sale of goods. The
> manufacturer in Florida, probably just an importer/dealer, would have
> a very difficult time finding a hairline crack, or any other of the
> many deficiencies that could result from NEB's freefall drop of the
> unit, and could not reasonably be expected to do so. Their lack of
> response to your e-mails is inexcuseable though. It seems to me they
> should be just as interested in helping you recover from NEB as are
> you. You might consider talking with them and asking for their help to
> pressure NEB to settle up before you get additional expense wrapped up
> in legal costs.
>
> Your fellow helmsman ... TOwel
Maui
lucky to hear both of them.
On 20 Dec 2001 02:48:02 GMT, ka...@FS.Denninger.net (Karl Denninger)
wrote:
>
>In article <3C214374...@bellsouth.net>,
>One can only hope its not a Panda.
>
>I'll tell 'ya this - there will never be one on a boat I own after seeing
>this game-playing and dodge-ball garbage on their part.
>
>I intend to tell the local dealer this as well; after all, they DID work up
>a quote for me.
>
>--
cbetts
public record of problems like this. I've found at least one reputable
company has been much more responsive once I started cc'ing the newsgroup on
warrantee correspondence, and letting the CEO know how to look for
info/gossip on his company (try asking the CEO to search for "fisher panda"
on groups.google.com).
I'll provide the details of my experience with a highly regarded outboard
manufacturer, once the promised refund check clears.
"Maui" <Ma...@FAKE-ADDRESS.com> wrote in message
news:3c22791...@news.mminternet.com...
Doug Dotson
doug
Arnold wrote:
> Geoff:
>
> You should invest some time in yourself. Learn about generators so
> that you could avoid falling victim to other's stupidity. Secondly,
> why are you putting a cheap Chinese generator in a rather nice boat?
> Why are you skimping? It sounds to me like you set yourself up for
> this one.
>
> The big lesson here is: Think for yourself, you can't pay others to do
> it for you.
>
> Arny
>
> "Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9177644D65560s...@207.172.3.51>...
> > One of the things that I enjoy about using news groups is my ability to
> > figure out what equipment to use and maybe more importantly, which
> > equipment NOT to use. In this vein I'll provide input on my experience
> > with a Fischer Panda generator. Take what you may from this.
> >
> > I installed a Fisher Panda 4.2 KW raw water cooled generator in my 40'
> > Freedom sloop named BlueJacket per the recommendation of Freedom. New
> > England Boatworks (NEB) of Portsmouth, RI installed it in September of
> > 1999. NEB is an authorized Fischer Panda dealer and installer. While NEB
> > was installing the unit they dropped it. The unit was shipped back to
> > Fischer Panda in Ft. Lauderdale, FL for repair and came back supposedly
> > having been fully repaired.
> >
David Smalley
> I will say that this has been quite an education for me. I hope that others
> have learned from it as well. Part of my reason for posting this is to
> raise the level of knowledge of everyone who might be put into this
> position. If I were given the opportunity to do this over again I would
> never have accepted the generator after being dropped. You live and you
> learn. Hopefully others can learn through my mistake(s).
Thank you for posting it. I sincerely hope that they give you a new
(properly installed, and inspected as such by the factory) generator.
David Smalley
>
> In article <3C214374...@bellsouth.net>,
> David Smalley <dr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
That's the sad part. From what he posted (his line item #4 I believe)
they will stick it to him good. (seems like the classic "bowling pin
setup")
> I'll tell 'ya this - there will never be one on a boat I own after seeing
> this game-playing and dodge-ball garbage on their part.
I will be shocked if they end up backing the consumer on this one.
> I intend to tell the local dealer this as well; after all, they DID work up
> a quote for me.
Spread the word!
Capt. Mooron
anything.
It's a common fault of the well magazine read population. They read a 3 page
article on gensets and decide they are now 'experts'... prepared to dish out
advise despite much protest to the contrary.
--
Capt. Mooron
S.V. Overproof
"Treat your Crew with Disdain.... and other Vessels with Distaste"
"Doug Dotson" <ddo...@digidata.com> wrote in message
news:3C21FC66...@digidata.com...
S/V Tranquility
on numerous occasions as I bought my 8Kw unit from them. While researching
my purchase, I wanted to see what they provided in the way of after the sale
service. There facility is not extremely large, but everyone was
knowledgeable about the products. I was shown engines which they had
replaced under warranty which had been severely overheated or oil starved.
Was this hype, I don't know, but I do know that the engines I saw were
abused and had safety features bypassed to keep the engine running.
I eventually purchased a unit and got it installed over the next 8 months.
Long story short, 20 months after purchase, the voltage regulator failed
after the screws securing it backed out. Because of the service manual they
provided me at purchase, I was able to continue using the generator until I
returned by bypassing this circuit and tying all of the battery banks
together. When I went to purchase a replacement part with cash in hand,
they wrote it off to warranty repair. There are two sides to every story
and I believe that Panda Fisher is more than ready to make things right when
they feel they have a responsibility, so give them a chance. If they do
make it right, you owe it to them to post your story hear to make amends.
As for improper installation, Panda Fisher installation manuals are written
for a perfect world where the FP generator is the center of the universe
around which a boat is built. There is no way that a unit could be
installed in strict accordance with every installation specification given
in their installation manual. The best one can hope for is to used good
installation practices avoiding pitfalls like water entering back thru the
exhaust. An air/water separator works great for this.
Brian Campbell
Tranq...@bellsouth.net
John Johnson
tainted by the Greek?
"Harry Krause" <hkr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C215D4A...@mindspring.com...
Arnold
replaced, not repaired, with no questions asked. They poor guy bought
it new and then it was repaired, not replaced? Well, a lesson learned
for the Panda crew. Their skimping cost them more in lost sales and
good will than the cost of replacing the generator. If they mark them
up double (typical retail), they lost three sales to me at least,
which is the cost of replacing three generators with just profit. The
one thing I've noticed is that the most successful companies sell 100%
customer satisfaction first. The Panda guys could redeem themselves by
replacing the generator to the satisfaction of the poor customer and
show they stand by their product and customer. It takes years to build
a good reputation and just one stupid mistake to ruin it. The ball is
in Panda's court.
Arny
Doug Dotson <ddo...@digidata.com> wrote in message news:<3C21FC66...@digidata.com>...
Doug Dotson
but when it came down to actually spending the money, decided
against FP. But your point is well taken. FP has probably lost 10x
in lost sales due to this discussion alone than it would have cost
them to just replace the genset in the first place. Poor business
sense will usually overshadow even the best product. Couldn't
bring myself to buy a genset with a Panda Bear painted on it.
Same reason I don't buy computers named after fruit I suppose.
doug
Peter Wiley
wrote:
>Brian;
>
>I don't think I owe Fisher Panda anything.
>
>I particularly do not owe them an apology for their warranty, and the way in
>which they have handled this, especially in trying to claim, now at this
>late date, that perhaps there is an installation problem.
>
>Particularly given the email in which it appears that one of their "big
>wigs" was PRESENT when the generator was dropped - and instead of simply
>having a replacement shipped up for next day delivery, they tried to patch
>and hack around the problem.
>
>So far the customer has suffered considerable inconvenience - none of it, as
>far as can be told, due to his own fault.
>
>This is not unique to Panda. In fact, it is the exceptional manufacturer in
>the marine space that doesn't do this on a regular basis to their customers.
>
>The entire point of my getting worked up about this is that it is just
>another shining example of the rape that we, as consumers of such products,
>SHOULD NOT tolerate.
>
>We SHOULD NOT buy products with inferior warranties.
>We SHOULD NOT put up with shoddy installations and manufacturers who try
> to hack around installation problems (like dropping a generator
> during installation) rather than doing it right the FIRST TIME.
>We SHOULD NOT suffer the consequences of so-called "authorized dealer's"
> incompetence.
>
>We SHOULD NOT pay for such products, buy such products, specify or use such
> products.
>
>Such manufacturers should be run out of business due to one simple cause -
>a complete lack of sales.
>
>I will rave at ALL such instances that I see in the marine space. Why?
>Because I'm tired of seeing boats tied to the dock with engines, generators
>and other major components sitting on a dock at the marina while the owners
>of such take a royal buttfucking in the wallet as a consequence of these
>manufacturer's policies.
>
>You wouldn't tolerate it if it happened to your house or car. There is no
>reason you should tolerate this if it happens to your BOAT.
>
>It really is quite simple:
>
>1. Warranties should be for AT LEAST five years or 2,000 hours (that's
> 400 hours a year) in pleasure use. Including parts and labor to
> pull and replace if necessary.
>
>2. If there are installation requirements (say, to prevent exhaust
> water reversion), then an installation performed by an authorized
> dealer OR builder should be *BY DEFINITION* acceptable. No hiding
> behind "improper installation" claims unless you did the install
> outside of approved channels (e.g. yourself, or by "Mr. cheapie"
> yard to avoid going through an authorized dealer.) BY DEFINITION
> the authorized dealer is an agent of the company - if they install
> something in an unapproved manner then they have approved the
> exception to the published rules. Your possession of a sales and
> installation receipt from said authorized dealer, or the invoice
> from the builder of your boat, should be sufficient proof of
> complience with the manufacturer's requirements for proper
> installation.
>
>3. Parts must be REASONABLY available. FedEx goes almost anywhere.
> Any product to which a manufacturer will not make spares available
> for the duration of the warranty is a product that by definition is
> unfit for the intended purpose that it is sold for, and therefore in
> violation of Magnuson-Moss. Such manufacturers should be forced to
> EAT the full, original purchase price if they cannot produce the
> parts to repair the device within a period of single-digit DAYS.
Single digit days is probably unreasonable, depending on where you
are. Some places only have air service once a week or so. Proof of
despatch of parts within 10 working days would be reasonable, though.
However, there's a weight limit on items as well. Shipping a new
engine block FedEx could be a problem.
By & large I agree with you, though. I've been looking at Yanmar
*industrial* engines recently. What I see, I like. Don't know how this
transfers to marine; we have a lot of marine gear but it's all
industrial scale (not yacht stuff). We still break a lot of it, too,
but that's part of the cost of doing business in a marine research
environment.
Every time I look at the 'yachty' stuff, I cringe. Overpriced and
shiny. Stainless where galvanised steel would be more serviceable and
a quarter the cost.
Peter Wiley
Abinidi
unit (although I can't see that happening) would you buy from them?
Has anyone had any experience with this product that was what they would
call "outstanding" ?...or even just really good?
Abinidi
Geoffrey W. Schultz
news:AnzU7.235177$3d2.11...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
I've found Raytheon (RayMarine) does a superb job of handling their support
of items in and out of warrenty. I just sent my 1997 Autohelm computer in
to have the firmware updated and they reflashed it and applied some hardware
ECOs for a total of $45. Can't argue about that! I've also had my Apelco
(also RayMarine) handheld in several times and at most I've been charged for
a new NiCad battery. Everytime that I've spoken with techs from RayMarine
I've found them very helpful and knowledgable.
-- Geoff
Doug Dotson
best product for the money. Plus my local dealer quit carrying them
because of some capacitor that apparently blows out more often
than it should and cost something like $200 to replace. I was
impressed with how quiet they are and their size. But other
companies have caught up with them in that aspect so I was able to
get a unit that is super quiet and compact for a couple BUs less.
Still in the process of installing it, will know more next spring. I'm
keeping my fingers crossed. And I don't plan on dropping it :)
doug
Rod McInnis
Steve wrote:
>
> How many people in the this thread got a email from Chad Godwin, Marine
> Sales Manager, Fisher Panda Generators??
>
> I got one, to my surprise, this morning.
>
I got one too.
I am not too surprised. I was once contacted by the V.P. of the US
division of Zodiac because I had voice my reluctance to buy a Zodicac
based on their handling of the cases of their boats coming apart some
years back. They corrected my distorted and completely false view that
there was ever anything wrong with any of their boats.
It will be interesting to see how this one resolves itself. Just the
fact that they responded indicates that they are at least listening to
the complaint. This could be a smokescreen, but it could be an honest
attempt by an honest company to correct a simple case of a bad unit.
Let's give them a chance and see what happens.
Geoff, be sure to let us all know how this resolves itself.
Rod McInnis
Geoffrey W. Schultz
> Geoff, be sure to let us all know how this resolves itself.
On Friday afternoon Fischer Panda shipped a new motor to Curacao. Now we'll
see what happens with the $ when I ship the old one back.
-- Geoff
Peter W. Meek
wrote:
The funniest one like this that ever happened to me
was a letter from PortaBoat complaining and maybe
slightly threatening me for bad-mouthing their product.
I had commented on a thread about PortaBoats, and my
random-sig for that posting happened to be:
========
-- Pete
"Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
But, what the Hell, it's home"
========
...which is scraps from Yeats and Lehrer as
juxtaposed by Zelazney in one of the Amber books.
PortaBoat took it as criticism of their product,
which I thought was pretty funny. The post
was about a video of a guy who slipped while
spreading the sides of a PortaBoat and had it
enclose him, turning him into an instant
Pod-Person. And I swear to you as I swore to
them, the sig really was random. We exchanged
a few e-mails and parted on amicable terms.
(post was 7/31/1996 according to groups.google.com)
The moral is: watch what you say about a product
in newsgroups; manufacturers really *do* monitor
the newsgroups for adverse mention of their products.
I hope they will use this ability for constructive
purposes, as well. I know at least one that does.
--
--Pete
"Peter W. Meek" <pwm...@mail.msen.com>
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/
Richard Bernard
limitations and at the time it was the smallest unit for the KW. The unit
has worked fine (running a 16,000 BTU/Hr A/C) but I don't have a lot of
hours on it yet.
"Abinidi" <saffr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AnzU7.235177$3d2.11...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Chad Godwin
I did not proof read my e-mail message to you. So now I will explain
about Fischer Panda Warranty. Our warranty coverage is 1 year engine
(this warranty is what Farymann gives us), 4 year electrical and
lifetime on the rotor. We do not pro-rate anything in our warranty
coverage. We also handle every generator problem in a fair manner when
out of warranty or if it is an installation error.
All our installation manuals cover proper installation and have a
installation review sheet and checklist. These sheets are supposed to
be sent to us before the unit is commissioned so we can see that it is
installed correctly.
When I sent all of you a response to Geoff Schultz's post I agree it
should have been posted to the site. Sorry, but I was not registered
and did not take the time to do so.
When I said I was at the boatyard when the damaged occured, the
generator actually fell of a forklift while I and our factory tech
where there. This is not the responiblity of Fischer Panda Generators.
This is the responiblity of the boatyard to correct. I did suggest
that the yard send it to us so we could repair and test run. The unit
was repaired and test ran by Fischer Panda Generators at no charge and
sent back to the yard.
We have not seen the engine after Geoff's last failure and will treat
it in a fair manner. Remember this unit was sold August 27, 1999 and
had a past history of having water in the engine. So, which side do we
stand on?
If anyone out there has a problem or concern about Fischer Panda we
are always ready to handle it. You can call me directly if need be at
800-508-6494.
Best regards,
Chad Godwin
David Smalley
> When I said I was at the boatyard when the damaged occured, the
> generator actually fell of a forklift while I and our factory tech
> where there. This is not the responiblity of Fischer Panda Generators.
> This is the responiblity of the boatyard to correct. I did suggest
> that the yard send it to us so we could repair and test run. The unit
> was repaired and test ran by Fischer Panda Generators at no charge and
> sent back to the yard.
For the life of me I don't understand why you did not demand that the
yard pay for a completely new unit.
Chad Godwin
The damage was not serve, it was mainly only cosmetic. The unit was
test run for 2.5 hours under load at our shop in Ft.Lauderdale. I can
not demand that the boatyard replace the unit with a new unit when it
only needed minor repairs.
Chad
Charlie
and had every right to receive one that was new in every sense of the term.
Not one that needed "minor repairs".
If the boatyard dropped it, they should have replaced it with a new unit and
sold the damaged one to another buyer as refurbished. Whoever bought the
repaired generator should have known exactly what they were getting and
received an appropriate discount.
A responsible business owner (the boatyard) carries insurance to protect
them against such losses, and a responsible manufacturer - especially one
who values their reputation - should have stepped in to demand the boatyard
replace the original unit with a new one. Failing that, you should have
provided a no-cost replacement to the customer and dealt with the boatyard
separately. And contrary to your claims, you can and should demand that
replacement.
It looks like you both gambled that everything would turn out OK in the end.
It didn't, and now you're expecting your customer to pay for your gamble.
Bad customer service at best. And the damage this incident has done to your
company's reputation FAR exceeds the cost of replacing his generator.
In case you forgot, these newsgroup posts are archived FOREVER by searching
http://groups.google.com/ . And it's not at all uncommon for consumers to
do such research before spending significant cash. Anybody doing such a
search will be able to see for themselves how Fischer Panda and the boatyard
handled the incident.
Charlie
M/V Wavelength
"Chad Godwin" <ch...@fischerpanda.com> wrote in message
news:94af03c3.02010...@posting.google.com...
Jim & Marion
year to replace my old one.
From what I have read here, it will not be a Panda. I use this newsgroup,
as part of my research, to learn all I can before I make a purchase.
Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield
"Charlie" <n...@spam.net> wrote in message
news:GI4Z7.12798$zX1.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...> From what I've
Waybomb
You'll never hear from them again. They probably think there are only a few
of us here and will not talk to anybody else about this outfit. Guaranteed ,
anybody ever asks me about generators that I'll fill their head with how
lousy Panda is.
Fred
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Jere Lull
Chad,
I think you may have gotten yourself into a tight spot. From your
@ddress, you're directly connected to Fischer Panda. Many on
rec.boats.cruising will remember that and assume you're one of the
principals. (If you're not, Good Luck in your future endeavors.)
I'm not all that interested, so don't care one way or the other. One of
your units (fully installed) is worth more than our boat. (We only use
5-7 hp to run at our hull speed and might use 20 amp hours a day.) BUT,
there are a number of people who are basing their future purchases upon
this thread that need real power.
As presented in this thread, the installation sounds suspect. Whether or
not the obvious damage seemed minor, it seems the actual damage was far
deeper. Seems 2.5 hours testing was insufficient. Since your units sound
so good, I suspect you'd do better to make the original claimant happy
and reap the benefit of increased sales -- even if Fischer Panda wasn't
directly wrong. Settle up with the installers later, off line.
My "take" is that the original poster will loudly broadcast a
satisfactory resolution and your reputation will be enhanced.
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 sailing from Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ annotated pics)
http://members.dca.net/jerelull/BVI.html
Chad Godwin
Fischer Panda has offered customer support for all our generators and
Mr.Schultz the end user of our generator. We can not demand that a
dealer purchase a new unit. We also do not know if the boatyard
informed the customer of the damage done to the generator before it
was installed.
At the current time Mr.Schultz is installing a new engine that we sent
him at no cost. When we recieve the old engine back we will post all
photos and a complete report on this post. I am also sure that Mr.
Schultz will post his results after everything has been done.
I would like to here from some people who can show that other
manufacters have done what we have.
Chad Godwin
MArine Slaes Manager
Charlie
care of the end-user. In fact, this thread proves the kind of damage your
company's reputation can suffer when a customer gets treated badly.
Now let me respond to your challenge.
I work for a manufacturer in the medical field - admittedly it's not marine
oriented. But I can tell you from direct, personal experience that when an
end-user contacts our company - even with a distributor-related product
problem (for instance, improper storage of temperature sensitive material),
we replace the material for the customer AT NO CHARGE and WITHOUT AN
ARGUMENT.
We do so because we value our reputation. And if the distributor refuses to
make it good with us, or has too many similar problems, we would sever that
distributor relationship. Our reputation as a company is worth FAR more
than the sales that any one dealer can bring to the table.
I'm glad to see that you finally did what you should have done in the first
place. You now need to take up the issue with your dealer, and I'd suggest
that Fischer Panda issue an official company policy as to how these events
are to be handled in the future. I'd further suggest that as a condition of
representing your company, you require your dealers to carry insurance
against this type of incident.
Finally, I'm amazed at the tone of your most recent post (quoted below).
You seem to be implying that you've gone to incredible lengths to take care
of a customer. In fact, this is the kind of service you'll find at West
Marine and BOAT/US on a regular basis. For that matter, any number of
non-marine concerns offer the same type of "satisfaction guaranteed"
policies. Think about LL Bean, Sharper Image and Craftsman tools for a
start.
Charlie
M/V Wavelength
"Chad Godwin" <ch...@fischerpanda.com> wrote in message
news:94af03c3.02010...@posting.google.com...
Douglas King
and I agree with Karl & Charlie 100%.
Charlie wrote:
> Finally, I'm amazed at the tone of your most recent post (quoted below).
> You seem to be implying that you've gone to incredible lengths to take care
> of a customer.
Well, that shows Chad's/Fisher-Panda's attitude.... when you can't gaff your
customers into being ripped off and keeping quiet, make a lot of noise yourself
about how magnificent your "customer service" is and hope that most people will
be fooled.
Quite a few companies operate on this principle, unfortunately.
> In fact, this is the kind of service you'll find at West
> Marine and BOAT/US on a regular basis. For that matter, any number of
> non-marine concerns offer the same type of "satisfaction guaranteed"
> policies. Think about LL Bean, Sharper Image and Craftsman tools for a
> start.
Agreed- and *if* you are the top in your field, this kind of service is a given.
I'm sure it's more profitable to charge a top price and then give bottom
service, though.
I have followed this thread with interest, it's been a learning experience.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
K. Smith
Damn Larry you're right, they do watch these news groups, well done
!!
Been a few of these over time, probably best the NG acknowledge with
thanks a good outcome when it happens, so people like these are
encouraged to do the right thing.
Probably does sound like yet another bent dealer trying to go cheap
on their own negligence in dropping it (that can't possibly be down to
Panda), but it seems Panda, notwithstanding it's not really their
responsibility, are at least now trying to put it right, well done!!
(hopefully they will then bounce the dealer???)
Many thanks to the owner for the original post it's been interesting
reading with a potentially good outcome for all.
K
David Smalley
1) Please include the post or part of the post you are replying to.
2) It sure does not seem to me that there was only minor cosmetic damage
when you make claims that the unit was not properly installed.
3) A drop from a forklift is a VERY SERIOUS MATTER. Paint NEVER fixes
the problem IMHO.
David Smalley
I purchased a Coleman rechargeable flashlight a few years back. It never
worked properly. A few months ago I decided it was time to throw it
away. A friend convinced me to call Coleman directly. The were very
pleasant and told me to ship it back, even though it was years old and I
had no receipt. The shipped me a brand new unit free of charge.
The new one works perfectly, and they now OWN me as a customer.
They kicked your scrawny butts.
Jim & Marion
tab company.
If ANYTHING goes wrong with their tabs, they are replaced, no question about
it!!!!!!.
I have Bennett Tabs on my boat and highly recommend them to everybody.
This is because of what they have as a customer support system. They take
CARE of their customers.
I cannot even imagine that Bennett would install or have a dealer install a
tab that was damaged.
There is no way that I could EVER recommend Fischer Panda to anyone!
Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield
"David Smalley" <dr...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C371A83...@bellsouth.net...
Henk Meuzelaar
> worked properly. A few months ago I decided it was time to throw it
> away. A friend convinced me to call Coleman directly. The were very
> pleasant and told me to ship it back, even though it was years old and I
> had no receipt. The shipped me a brand new unit free of charge.
>
> The new one works perfectly, and they now OWN me as a customer.
Wow, that is very impressive! However, nobody can top the US
Government when it comes to replacing damaged goods. Recently, I went
to a local bank to buy me one of these brand-new Sacagawea dollars and
ended up buying five instead because they had a special sale going
(Xmas sales had been well below expectations; yah just got to know
when to buy your dollars!). Just outside the bank I happened to drop
one though (because I took it out of my pocket to shine it up a little
bit) and one of these National Guard anti-terrorist vehicles tracks
right over it before I can pick it up. Jeezz, there goes my tax $$, I
thought and, yes, it was all bent up and almost twice its original
size. So, I take it straight to Mr. Greenspan's Office right around
the corner and try to get a re-fund, or at least a replacement.
Although I was ready to settle for 1 or 2 quarters (because it was my
own fault taking out of my pocket in the first place) they EXCHANGED
it with no questions asked!!!
Now that is what I call service! I know where I am going to buy my
dollars in the future. They sure OWN me as a customer.
Flying Dutchman
Jeff Morris
Atkins and Hoyle - stainless tube and alloy castings. Less than a year
later, I found one of the tubes severely bent. I assumed that there was
some unmentioned incident at the marina. I figured I could replace the tube
myself, so I called the company who explained that because of the special
glue used, only they could rebuild it. I felt over the barrel, and so they
sent a new one and I returned the old - the cost was about $250. Since the
original pair cost (if I remember correctly) about $750, this started
bugging me. I brought it up to their salesman at the next boat show, and he
laughed at me, saying, what did I expect? It was my fault I broke the davit!
I decided it was my fault I bought the davit.
-jeff
"The sport that requires the least effort" Albert Einstein on Sailing
"Karl Denninger" <ka...@FS.Denninger.net> wrote in message
news:a17v1g$hkc$0...@dosa.alt.net...
> You got that right.
>
> Last summer there was a guy at my marina that had a dead trim motor.
That's
> the expensive part, natch. They were Bennetts. I told him to call them
and
> tell 'em it was broken. He said "oh that's gonna be spendy; its
DEFINITELY
> out of warranty, close to five years old!"
>
> I told him to call them anyway.
>
> He did.
>
> They sent him a new head unit. Without waiting for the old one to be
> returned.
>
> There was an invoice inside the box.
>
> It read "NO CHARGE"
>
> Now I bet they don't do this every day, but in this case they did, and the
> customer service value they got out of that from my perspective is, well,
> amazing.
>
> If I ever put tabs on a boat, or ever refurbish the ones on my existing
> fishing boat, they will be Bennetts.
>
> Period.
>
> That kind of advertising you can't buy for any amount of money.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
> http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective Consulting
> http://childrens-justice.org SIGN THE UPREPA PETITION TODAY
>
> In article <y7FZ7.176594$KT.44...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>,
Waybomb
I bought Trimdicators for my previous boat years ago in another state and I
don't even remember from where. So, there they sat in my basement for years.
Got a different boat, rediscovered the box, and went and installed them. Had
a slight problem with one of the displays.
Replaced. Gratis. No questions. No complaints. No asking about if I dropped
it, or got them wet, or left them outside, or if a dealer had laid hands on
them.
Too bad Bennett doesn't get into more marine devices.
Peter Wiley
wrote:
>
>To Mr. Godwin:
>
>Let me reply to a few specific points:
>
>1. The customer bought a NEW generator. Not a repaired damaged one.
> You were present and aware of the damage, yet you did not see to it
> that the customer got what he paid for. The customer dealt with an
> authorized Panda dealer, ergo, you are responsible as the
> manufacturer to the customer along with the dealer. This is
> dishonorable at best.
>
>2. You knew there was water in the engine when it failed the first time
> (and you have so stated) yet you did not at the time take issue with
> the installation. Second, if the installation was proper in the
> first place, water reversion cannot happen. There are a few
> possibilities:
> 1. Your authorized dealer improperly installed the generator,
> but certified that it was done properly. You are obligated
> to stand behind the installation since the dealer is your
> agent.
>
> 2. Your authorized dealer improperly installed the generator
> and didn't certify anything. You are obligated to insure
> that your dealer follows the installation guidelines since
> this is an authorized representative of your company.
>
> 3. The water got in there due to a cylinder head or block
> crack, and not due to exhaust reversion. You knew that
> there was an issue with the engine and ignored it when you
> first became aware of it. You are responsible in this case
> as well, since you neglected to take care of the problem the
> first time the unit failed.
For the sake of completeness, you missed one. The exhaust system was
altered post installation by someone not approved by the original
installer, and this modification is the source of the problem. In that
case, it's not the manufacturer or original installer's
responsibility. Doesn't look like that's the case, but we're all only
going on what we read here.
Peter Wiley
Mike Niemela
Try "Fantastic Fans". They make vent fans for RVs and boats. Their
customer service is legendary. Anything goes wrong, ever, they will
replace it. No hassle, no questions, it just gets done.
As to generators, I have a Kohler that was built sometime in the 20's.
About 15 years ago I called Kohler to request any info they could give
me on this old unit. They sent me an owners AND a service manual free
of charge. This for a unit that is older than I am.
I really don't understand why any reputable company could expect to stay
in business and treat their customers the way Fisher Panda has in this
instance.
Best
Mike N