Crusader Captains Choice 5.7 or Mercruiser Horizon MPI 5.7
kurzweil
Any insights as to which way to go
Crusaders are rated 330 hp while the mercruiders are rated 300 hp
Both are fwc and the crusaders are available with reverse rotation (what i
need)
With trans:
crusaders are 9500 each
mercruisers are 8600 each
any comments, insights, experiences, or just plain opinions are really
welcomed
John
Doug Meredith
"kurzweil" <pbal...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Nvria.833$v04...@news.randori.com...
> I'm looking for 2 new 5.7 liter (350 ci) engines
> Any insights as to which way to go
> Crusaders are rated 330 hp while the mercruiders are rated 300 hp
> Both are fwc and the crusaders are available with reverse rotation
(what i
> need)
> With trans:
> crusaders are 9500 each
> mercruisers are 8600 each
They should be the same engines. Both companies buy their engines from
GM, the same way, and then put their exhaust etc on. The HP rating just
depends on how they rate the engine. You can put the same engine on 5
different dyno's, and get a different number for them.
Mercruiser would be my first choice, just for the fact that service, and
more importantly, parts are available on just about every street corner.
Now if you have a cread Crusader dealer where you boat, then thats good
too. Now of course you say that you need the reverse rotation, and Merc
doesn't offer that. You can get that same thing through the
transmission. Part of the price difference is the reverse rotation.
YMMV
WayneB
All kidding aside, the Crusaders have a well deserved reputation for
longevity. My 454s are 20 years old and still going strong.
=================================================
On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 02:01:19 GMT, "kurzweil" <pbal...@home.com>
wrote:
Jim Kelly
between the two engines. Crusader uses the GM marine fuel management system
and the GM marine ignition system. Mercury uses their own. Crusader uses a
fuel cell system with an integral fuel filter and pump. Mercury does not.
Crusader uses a different style raw water pump than Mercury.
You can get reverse rotation with some transmissions but not others. Try
doing it with a Velvet Drive and you will blow out the reverse planeterys in
short order.
Doug Meredith
"Jim Kelly" <ps...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3E8A5D03...@flash.net...
> Check the ignition and fuel systems and you will see the major
differences
> between the two engines. Crusader uses the GM marine fuel management
system
> and the GM marine ignition system. Mercury uses their own.
What is different from a Merc dist, and a GM???
> Crusader uses a
> fuel cell system with an integral fuel filter and pump. Mercury does
not.
Merc uses a seperate fuel filter, and their cool fuel system.
> You can get reverse rotation with some transmissions but not others.
Try
> doing it with a Velvet Drive and you will blow out the reverse
planeterys in
> short order.
Some transmissions work well with reverse rotation. The one that
Correct Craft uses works fine.
Jim Kelly
the availability of parts.
kurzweil
blue of course
Here is a 10 year old artical by a marine surveyer comparing the 454 from
crusader and mercruiser. Seem to agree with you all the way. Go to
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasEngines.htm to see the pictures that went with
it.
GAS ENGINES
4 Gold Stars to Crusader
by David Pascoe
Of all the questions we are asked, one of the most frequent is which gas
engine is best. I have some very definite opinions about that because I
perform a lot of gas engine surveys, as well as engine failure analysis for
insurance companies, meaning that my perspective is not based on the
"virtual reality" of dockside chat, but what happens to this vital machinery
in the real world based on thousands of surveys. So let's get to it.
Hands down, I give my top award to the Crusader Division of ThermoElectron
Corporation for their Crusader line of engines. Coming to this conclusion
was easy because their engines simply outperform all others in terms of
service life. The fact is that Crusader engines keep going long after others
have had overhauls, engine replacements, or replacements of expensive parts
such as manifolds, risers and cooling systems, often giving reliable service
life in excess of 100% over other engines.
But that's not all. Several years ago, I had the opportunity to tear down a
Crusader 454 engine and that of a competitor, side by side on the bench, and
make a detailed comparison.* I was quite surprised to find that even the
engine blocks were not the same, for the Crusader block was considerably
better.
If you don't think engines and how they are installed make a difference,
compare these two.
On left a pair of Mercruiser 454's installed in a Forumula F-29; on right
Crusader 454's in a Tiara 3100. Any guesses as to the difference in
maintenance costs? The striking things about the Crusaders is how
uncluttered they are. How would you like to change plugs and oil filters on
the Mercs?
Start with the fact that the Crusader had 4-bolt, stepped and stabilized
main bearing caps, whereas the other engine had a 2-bolt, unstepped,
unstabilized main bearing caps. As some of you may know, GM has long made
two lines of basically the same engine, the better of the two being named
the "TargetMaster" line of heavier duty, more precision engines for trucks.
While I don't claim to be intimate with the GM product line of engines - the
last time I personally rebuilt a TargetMaster was 10 years ago - there isn't
any doubt in my mind that Crusader is using the TargetMaster line. The basic
block was an all-around better block than it's competitor's. The basic
differences were in the lower end, as well as obviously larger cooling
passages.
Crusader's engines aren't widely used for race boat engine conversions like
its competitors engines are, probably because Crusader doesn't get involved
with the racing crowd. But it is interesting to note that when its
competitor's engines are used by the race engine builders, they always add
stabilizers to the main bearing caps. Sort of makes you wonder why they
don't just use the better block in the first place, doesn't it? Well, part
of the answer is that this is a high performance, not a heavy duty block,
made for speed but not endurance.
Why not electronic ignitions and EFI fuel systems? Quite simply because of
cost and reliability. Crusader has strictly avoided electronic systems, and
rightly so because let's face it, these engines get wet. Whether its
leaking decks or hatches, stuffing boxes throwing water or leaking hoses or
whatnot, reliability goes out the hatch when sensitive systems are involved.
Experience people know that the outstanding virtue is ruggedness and the
ability to survive the environment. So, too, ease and cost of servicing. In
that regard, you just can't beat the plain old carburetor and standard
ignition system. All decent mechanics (and many boat owners) know how to fix
these things, and at reasonable cost. When you start adding digital
electronics and delicate metering systems, the cost can only go up, and the
number of mechanics who work on them goes down. No matter how much fuel a
sophisticated system may save, or improvements in efficiency or power,
nothing compares to reliability and low cost repairs. Its your money, take
your choice.
In the real world, Crusader outperforms all others in terms of reliability
and longevity. Its not unusual for me to find Crusader engines 15-20 years
old that are still going strong in the seawater environment, whereas its
rather rare to find other engines going this long. There are two primary
reasons for this: (1) better cooling system design, and (2) better gaskets.
One engine marinizer has had gasket and cooling system problems for going on
two decades now and still displays no willingness to resolve the problem.
Frankly, there's no excuse for a line of engines in which the head gaskets
go bad in 4-6 years, but in 50% of all engines that I survey of this
builder, I find leaking head gaskets. Mostly on seawater cooled engines, but
not infrequently on FWC engines as well. And both of Crusader's main
competitors have exhaust risers that are almost guaranteed to go bad in
seawater use within 3-5 years. Its bad enough to have to bear the cost of
replacing leaking risers, but the real problem with leaking risers is that
when they corrode and start leaking, the water goes into the engine, often
causing major damage and costly repairs.
Crusader solves this problem by including the cast iron risers on the fresh
water side of the cooling system, so that without sea water going through
them these risers can last ten years or more. Yes, it does mean that
Crusader engines are more sensitive to overheating because more of the very
hot exhaust system is being cooled by the FWC side of the system. But that's
a small price to pay to avoid having to replace $2,000 worth of castings and
risking major engine damage. This doesn't mean that Crusader engines are
prone to overheating, at least not if you pay more attention to cooling
system maintenance. This is because any reduction in heat transfer ability
will result in a more rapid rise in temperature simply because more of the
engine is being cooled by the FWC system.
That means following instructions when mixing your engine coolant with water
to get the proper ratio. Did you know that too much coolant (antifreeze) can
actually be harmful to your engine? Excessive amounts of ethylene glycol can
cause the chemical to gel on the sides of the cooling passages in hot spots
like the water jackets around the cylinders and exhaust manifolds. When this
happens, the antifreeze begins to retard heat transfer, and what you get is
uneven cooling - hotspots and cooler spots - resulting in great differences
in temperatures that can cause the block to distort. This is one of the
major causes of cracked blocks, manifolds and cylinder heads, as well as
ring wear and piston melting. The same thing happens when you have too
little, or no coolant; corrosion within the cooling system retards heat
transfer and results in hot spots or higher internal temperatures.
Here's what happens when poor quality head gaskets leak - water in the
cylinder, but that's not all. The water corrodes the metal surfaces of
both the block and cylinder head, meaning that the surface is no longer flat
and will not make a seal with new gaskets unless these mating surfaces are
re-milled. You can mill the heads, but you can't re-mill the block. So what
you end up with is basically a ruined engine. For another $100 in better
quality gaskets, this would have been prevented. This inexpensive (Hino)
diesel was only 5 years old and obviously had automotive gaskets.
Other features with Crusader include better location of components for
servicing, better engine mounts, higher quality transmission oil cooler with
convenient front engine mount so that its easy to check for leaks. And
unlike some builders, their engines aren't painted black but a nice medium
blue color so that you can identify and repair leaks quickly, whereas with
black or dark gray you usually don't notice water or oil leaks until its too
late. Better internal gasketing. Fuel pumps that almost never fail. Superior
belt drive system of peripherals such as water pumps and alternators. A
standard mechanical electrical system with no microprocessors or other high
tech BS to cause high tech headaches. A serviceable heat exchanger tank with
removable end plates so that the core can be removed and cleaned, whereas
most others are very expensive throwaways. And yes, you should pull the
cores and have them cleaned every two years, as well as regasketing the
system.
Now here's one of the best features: high rear engine oil filter mounts on
most models!!! Yep, not under the engine where it can't be reached, but nice
and high where with two hands you can spin those little honeys off in a
heartbeat. Now that's what I call thoughtfulness. (Not included on V-6
models and optional on most engines and available as a kit)
I give my 4 gold star award to Crusader Engines for an overall superior
product. Here's a manufacturer that obviously cares about their customers.
How do I know this? Because they have gone the extra mile of taking the time
to design these engines, not only for longevity, but for ease of service. In
an age when most manufacturers could care less if servicing their products
are a nightmare, Crusader offers a product that is about as easy to maintain
as possible. Crusader costs more, but anything else is penny-wise and
pound-foolish.
* Model years were 1991 & 1992
Estimated engine service life, FWC models: 12-15 years**
Estimated engine service life, seawater models: 6-8 years**
Total engine service life, SWC cooled engines with good maintenance: 10-12
years.
Total engine service life FWC models with good maintenance: 15-20 years.***
** Before replacement of major components such as risers, manifolds, heat
exchangers, is required. These estimates are based upon real world surveys
and experience of boats in south Florida that get full 12 month usage with
no layup periods.
*** This average includes major replacements of heat exchangers, water
pumps, regasketing and valve jobs, etc.
"WayneB" <WayneBatR...@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:19ik8vgb737fpodkh...@4ax.com...
Rich Stern
>
>blue of course
>
I agree.
My first Mercruiser, a 1997 5.7, had black wires running every which way across
the top of a black painted engine. Difficult to do simple visual checks or
basic maintanence.
My next boat had twin Crusader 1999 5.7s, and it was much easy to visually
inspect them, check/change the oil, check the intake arrestor for dirt buildup,
check the plug wires, throttle cable, etc.
Mercury may have closed the gap since then with changes to their line, and
Crusader ownership has changed within the last few years, so, things may be
different nowadays. But my experience says in a world of equals, blue is more
equal.
-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site
Doug Meredith
> Wayne,
>
> blue of course
>
> Here is a 10 year old artical by a marine surveyer comparing the 454
from
> crusader and mercruiser. Seem to agree with you all the way. Go to
> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasEngines.htm to see the pictures that
went with
> it.
as you say, this is a 10 year old article, and Pascoe likes Mercruiser
about as much as he likes Sea Ray. 10 years ago in engine technology
was the dark ages compared to today, and that old a report should be
used for nothing more important than scratch paper.