Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
Jed Cavadas
I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
the advise.
Harry Krause
Uh...marine gasoline is the same as the gasoline at your favorite gas station. I
don't believe the gas sold at marinas would be allowed to have a higher lead
content than the gas sold where you fill your car.
Buy Chevron, not Shell. The Chevron has an additive that actually keeps excess
carbon from forming in your cylinders and on your piston tops and cylinder head.
--
Harry Krause
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Larry KN4IM
Jed Cavadas <jedca...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
>have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
>same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
>Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
>but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
>the advise.
Amazing....The only difference between "marina gas" and auto station
gas is about 70 cents a gallon and a little more dirt and water. Do
you REALLY think Texaco has some special fuel trucks hauling special
gas to the few marinas buying so little?? I've watched tank trucks
drive out of the marinas here down the road to the next gas station.
I even asked the driver what the difference was. He said the marinas'
tanks were harder to get to...87 octane is 87 octane.
Where have you seen leaded fuel in the last 15 years??? Mexico has
it, I think!
Larry....Genuine Speedway from Starvin' Marvin!
BR
We still have leaded fuels here in Colorado.
Curtis Wheeler
Jed Cavadas wrote:
>
> I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
> have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
> same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
> Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
> but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
> the advise.
Unless I have been missing something really important here, marina gas
is unleaded - it's no different that what you buy at your local
station.
The minor confussion may have been caused by references to aviation
gasolines in various boating threads (the synthetic oil saga) - most
avgas sold at airports is "low lead", not unleaded.
The only difference you'll normally see between marina gas and station
pump gas is the price. But another thing to consider is taxes - in
California, some of the gas taxes on marina gas goes to marine and
boating needs, rather than highway funds. This is one reason why I
don't mind paying a bit more for gas at a marina. If I am going to pay
taxes on the gas in my boat, I'd rather have those taxes go to boating
needs before highway needs. [I still make my initial top off of gas at
a local station while trailering out - but I don't haul much extra fuel
in cans to save a couple of bucks later on the trip]. There are certain
marinas I don't mind doing business with even though their gas is
"overpriced" by .20 a gallon.
--
Curtis
"Fast Forward"
Jed Cavadas
Larry KN4IM wrote:
>
> Jed Cavadas <jedca...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
> >have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
> >same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
> >Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
> >but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
> >the advise.
>
> gas is about 70 cents a gallon and a little more dirt and water. Do
> you REALLY think Texaco has some special fuel trucks hauling special
> gas to the few marinas buying so little?? I've watched tank trucks
> drive out of the marinas here down the road to the next gas station.
> I even asked the driver what the difference was. He said the marinas'
> tanks were harder to get to...87 octane is 87 octane.
>
> Where have you seen leaded fuel in the last 15 years??? Mexico has
> it, I think!
>
> Larry....Genuine Speedway from Starvin' Marvin!
I don't think Lake Erie is close to Mexico, but we also have leaded
gas...so, I guess unleaded won't cause any damage...correct ?
joe
Jed Cavadas wrote in message <3516DB...@earthlink.net>...
>I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
>have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
>same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
>Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
>but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
>the advise.
There is one difference that no one noticed! Look at the octane rating.
Here on Lake Erie I've noticed the marine fuel is not 87 octane, although I
can't remember what it is. I want to say it is 91 but I could be wrong.
Vogt Family
Jed Cavadas wrote:
>
> I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
> have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
> same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
> Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
> but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
> the advise.
In my experience marina gas is very expensive since there is generally
only one marina on any given small lake around here. It is also more
likely to be old, clog up some part of the fuel system, or be
contaminated with water. Before going for a couple days of boating, we
fill up all boat tanks, and as many jerry cans as we can scrounge, at
the gas station...
Birken T. Vogt - KE6DLT
Eago3235
reguklar unleaded is good enough, bassed on my experience
THEBOAT3
>We still have leaded fuels here in Colorado.
I hope your States EPA does not read this.
Stan C. E-MAIL THEB...@aol.com
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>From: Harry Krause <hkr...@gate-nospam.net>
>Date: Mon, Mar 23, 1998 17:45 EST
>Message-id: <3516E5FD...@gate.net>
>
>Jed Cavadas wrote:
>>
>> I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
>> have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
>> same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
>> Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
>> but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
>> the advise.
>
>station.
Except that it's cheaper, cleaner, fresher and less likely to be contaminated
with water. If it's an older outboard, stay away from gasohol.
Not Harding
It's Hardy
As in Hardy Har Har
Brinboat
As regards marina fuel prices, I wrote the following piece for a recent boat
show handout. I hope that it answers some of the concerns about prices.
"Not too long ago, while at a marina, I overheard the following :
"$1.75 a gallon? You're kidding aren't you? Just because you have a captive
audience is no reason to rip us off. The problem with all you marina guys is
that you think we're made of money. I don't mind paying a little more but, come
on, this is almost 35 cents more per gallon than I pay for my car! "
This was a one-way conversation with the customer berating the gas attendant at
a level loud enough to be heard from anywhere near the gas dock. The
attendant, who had probably heard it all before, just nodded and mumbled "Yes
sir."
OK, so the customer was out of line, but what of his charges? After all, gas
prices at your marina are considerably higher than at your local gas station.
How come?
There are many factors involved. The first is a higher fuel grade. Most
marinas are pumping a mid-grade fuel rather than the regular grade. Marine
engines are almost always operating under load; so it is felt that the
additional octane may prolong engine life. In the case of outboard motors, use
of 89 octane or above is recommended by all the major manufacturers to combat
carbon build-up.
A shorter selling season requires a marina operator to cover his costs during a
six month season here in the northeast. In fact, at most locations, only June,
July, and August produce the profits needed: and a couple of bad weekends can
wipe out the entire month's profit.
The largest factor however is the cost of environmental compliance. All
distributors of bulk fuel must meet the same EPA and DEC regulations. It
doesn't matter whether you operate a small marina with a 1,000 gallon tank,
pumping 2-3 thousand gallons per season or high-volume filling station with
multiple 25,000 gallon tanks. The environment must be protected. Unfortunately,
because of their location, marinas face additional costs."
Good luck and good boating,
For those marinas with long fuel docks, the cost to install and maintain the
necessary fuel delivery system is very high. Special piping and fittings are
required to ensure that no fuel can be leaked into the water.
All marinas must provide an emergency fuel spill containment system at the
pump. All marinas are required to have Pollution Insurance. This is very costly
and, again, hurts the little guy the most. Effective in December 1998, new
EPA regulations will be in effect that will require all bulk fuel storage and
delivery systems to be in compliance or to be permanently shut down
Additionally, the new regulations spell out more detailed record keeping as
part of a new leak monitoring system.
Unfortunately, these new regulations may prove to be so burdensome to some
marinas that they may go out of the fuel business. So, when you tie your boat
up to the gas dock, please remember that clean water benefits us all and that
we must all share the responsibility of keeping it that way.
Jim Brinson - President of the Empire State Marine Trades Association (ESMTA)
Larry KN4IM
"joe" <jdzu...@nsraex.com> wrote:
>
>Jed Cavadas wrote in message <3516DB...@earthlink.net>...
>>I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
>>have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
>>same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
>>Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
>>but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
>>the advise.
>
>There is one difference that no one noticed! Look at the octane rating.
>Here on Lake Erie I've noticed the marine fuel is not 87 octane, although I
>can't remember what it is. I want to say it is 91 but I could be wrong.
>
>
If you read a Mercury owner's manual, it forbids you to use anything
but 87 octane. I asked them why and they said the alcohol oil
companies are using to "increase octane rating" now, in stead of
making real hi test gas, attracts so much water that it corrodes
everything including the carbs, bottom end bearing needles, cylinders,
etc...very messy. Mercury told me on the phone to NEVER use high test
gas in my new 175hp Sea Rayder with their Sport Jet in it!
Larry
Harry Krause
Brinboat wrote:
>
> As regards marina fuel prices, I wrote the following piece for a recent boat
> show handout. I hope that it answers some of the concerns about prices.
>
> "Not too long ago, while at a marina, I overheard the following :
>
> "$1.75 a gallon? You're kidding aren't you? Just because you have a captive
> audience is no reason to rip us off. The problem with all you marina guys is
> that you think we're made of money. I don't mind paying a little more but, come
> on, this is almost 35 cents more per gallon than I pay for my car! "
>
> This was a one-way conversation with the customer berating the gas attendant at
> a level loud enough to be heard from anywhere near the gas dock. The
> attendant, who had probably heard it all before, just nodded and mumbled "Yes
> sir."
>
> OK, so the customer was out of line, but what of his charges? After all, gas
> prices at your marina are considerably higher than at your local gas station.
> How come?
>
> There are many factors involved. The first is a higher fuel grade. Most
> marinas are pumping a mid-grade fuel rather than the regular grade. Marine
> engines are almost always operating under load; so it is felt that the
> additional octane may prolong engine life. In the case of outboard motors, use
> of 89 octane or above is recommended by all the major manufacturers to combat
> carbon build-up.
Simply, this is NOT true. The major manufacturers of outboards recommend
"standard" grade gasoline, i.e., "octane" of 87. Chevron's Techron additive
keeps carbon from building up. It is in the company's
"regular" gas.
I have no dispute with the rest of your post. It costs a marina a hell of a lot
more than a gas station to pump petro.
Harry Krause
EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address
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Jralbert
In article <3516FB...@earthlink.net>, Jed Cavadas
<jedca...@earthlink.net> writes:
> I guess unleaded won't cause any damage...correct ?
>
>
doesn't it depend on the engine. newer ones are designed to run on unleaded
fuel. The additive adds nothing but trouble. Certainly a late 80's or
afterwards engine ought to be capable of handling unleaded
Joel Albert
Potomac, MD
((jral...@aol.com))
JDavis1277
By all means buy your fuel at the local gas station. It is the same fuel as
sold at your marina but with less chance of being dirty. I don't think you can
buy leaded fuel in the US any more. Maybe aviation gas? Save a little money
and enjoy, Butch Davis-
ME
Yupp there is one down the street from me....
Dave Brown
Larry KN4IM wrote:
> gas is about 70 cents a gallon and a little more dirt and water.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Careful Larry, you're gonna get my fur in a dander.
Dave Brown
Brown's Marina
Dave Brown
Harry Krause wrote:
> > There are many factors involved. The first is a higher fuel grade. Most
> > marinas are pumping a mid-grade fuel rather than the regular grade. Marine
> > engines are almost always operating under load; so it is felt that the
> > additional octane may prolong engine life. In the case of outboard motors, use
> > of 89 octane or above is recommended by all the major manufacturers to combat
> > carbon build-up.
>
> Simply, this is NOT true. The major manufacturers of outboards recommend
> "standard" grade gasoline, i.e., "octane" of 87. Chevron's Techron additive
> keeps carbon from building up. It is in the company's
> "regular" gas.
C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
marina. Can you imagine how much more I'd have to invest to offer two
grades of fuel?
regards,
Dave Brown
WHardy1902 wrote:
> >Uh...marine gasoline is the same as the gasoline at your favorite gas
> >station.
>
> Except that it's cheaper, cleaner, fresher and less likely to be contaminated
> with water. If it's an older outboard, stay away from gasohol.
Now my fur is up -- why are marinas being associated with this tar?
My tanks are clean and the gas is a fresh as it can be as they're turned
over every 3 or 4 days. Futhermore, marine tanks are no more likely to
be conatminated by water than highway pumps. Why do you make these
comments?
Regards,
George Jefferson
:My tanks are clean and the gas is a fresh as it can be as they're turned
:over every 3 or 4 days. Futhermore, marine tanks are no more likely to
:be conatminated by water than highway pumps. Why do you make these
:comments?
I'm sure youre right. Actually since boaters are more likley
to remember where they bought their gas, major marinas are
likely more careful than many roadside stations.
--
george jefferson : geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
to reply simply press "r"
-- I hate editing addresses more than I hate the spam!
George Jefferson
:C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
:fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
:marina.
who need 91? Seriously, do you have a large race boat crowd?
Harry Krause
Dave Brown wrote:
>
> Harry Krause wrote:
>
> > The major manufacturers of outboards recommend
> > "standard" grade gasoline, i.e., "octane" of 87. Chevron's Techron additive
> > keeps carbon from building up. It is in the company's
> > "regular" gas.
>
> fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
> grades of fuel?
>
> regards,
>
> Brown's Marina
--
We have no argument. The original poster claimed outboards needed a higher
octane fuel. They don't. Other marine engines do, so, yes, a marina must sell
higher octane to take care of its other customers.
At my dad's marine, he sold Sunoco. All the gas was in one tank and the "octane"
ingredients were in another, or so I recall. You could mix up whatever you
needed.
Harry Krause
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Dave Brown
George Jefferson wrote:
>
> :C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
> :fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
> :marina.
>
Up here in the great white north, we have plenty of beasts from the
sixties still runing strong. According to OMC's octane charts, there are
some out there that needs this. Furthermore, I'm a fan of higher octaine
fuels in general and since I'll be using the very same gas...... :-)
dave
Marcus G Bell
> :C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
> :fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
> :marina.
George Jefferson (geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu) wrote:
> who need 91? Seriously, do you have a large race boat crowd?
Certain high compression OMC outboards from the '70s and '80s need
it. Outboards of all kinds from the '60s and before also benefit from
it, as modern gas tends to have a lower motor octane number but higher
research octane number than was the case when the motors were
built. (Remember, "octane" is the average of motor and research
ratings.)
I believe Mercury's recommendation against hi-grade gas in their
modern machines has only to do with the alcohols often used to boost
octane these days. For this same reason, they prefer 87 octane in
older outboards as well where the additive package is known to compete
with that of the 89+ octane grades. Otherwise, the older stuff should
be run on 89.
--
--
Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
Ted H
Dave Brown wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
> fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
> grades of fuel?
>
> regards,
>
> Dave Brown
> Brown's Marina
Dave -
Out of curiosity ('cause I really don't know) - Is the mid grade "North
of the Border" 91 (as opposed to 89), and is that the reason that's what
you pump?
BTW, I have no qualms about purchasing gas at a marina if I need to. I
trailer the boat, and economics dictate buying at the local gas
station. But if it's in the water for an extended period, where else
but a marina are you going to fill up 80+ gallons (out of 16 gerry cans
or haul the boat just to fuel up)?
If a marina looks like crap - their gas could be as well - it's the same
for a gas station. You can get burnt in either place (or not). Blanket
comments just serve to pi$$ people off.
Regards - Ted H
Dave Brown
Ted H wrote:
> Out of curiosity ('cause I really don't know) - Is the mid grade "North
> of the Border" 91 (as opposed to 89), and is that the reason that's what
> you pump?
We pump 91 to meet those motors which required it. Our grades run from
86 all the way to 93 up here. My particular supplier can only provide 91
max.
> BTW, I have no qualms about purchasing gas at a marina if I need to. I
> trailer the boat, and economics dictate buying at the local gas
> station. But if it's in the water for an extended period, where else
> but a marina are you going to fill up 80+ gallons (out of 16 gerry cans
> or haul the boat just to fuel up)?
That's always been baffling to me. We had (note past tense) a customer
with a 27' Bayliner. He didn't like my gas price (the lowest
on-the-water in the region) so he began bringing it in 6 jerry cans at a
time. To put this in context, this gentleman was a dentist and the car
he used to carry this fuel was a Lincoln Town car. Aside from the
aggravation and mess of this method of fuel delivery (not to mention the
negligable savings) do you think he ever considered his family's safety
if he were to be rear-ended on the way to the boat? This individual
continues to stand out in my mind as one of the all time great idiots I
have encountered.
As an aside, my insurnace company will not allow me to grant my
customers this option and I'm sure it's the same elsewhere for onvious
reasons.
> If a marina looks like crap - their gas could be as well - it's the same
> for a gas station. You can get burnt in either place (or not). Blanket
> comments just serve to pi$$ people off.
As is apparently onbviously lately, I'm revealing just that in my posts.
:-)
Regards,
Bob Hesse
It's usually mid grade.
Bill McKee
Dave Brown wrote:
> Harry Krause wrote:
>
> > > There are many factors involved. The first is a higher fuel grade. Most
> > > marinas are pumping a mid-grade fuel rather than the regular grade. Marine
> > > engines are almost always operating under load; so it is felt that the
> > > additional octane may prolong engine life. In the case of outboard motors, use
> > > of 89 octane or above is recommended by all the major manufacturers to combat
> > > carbon build-up.
> >
> > Simply, this is NOT true. The major manufacturers of outboards recommend
> > "standard" grade gasoline, i.e., "octane" of 87. Chevron's Techron additive
> > keeps carbon from building up. It is in the company's
> > "regular" gas.
>
> C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
> fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
> marina. Can you imagine how much more I'd have to invest to offer two
> grades of fuel?
>
> regards,
>
> Dave Brown
> Brown's Marina
Course Dave that's 91 octane Canadian, which if it's like the $ca will mean it's 80
Octane US. Do you charge that $1.75 per liter or imp gal. d;-).
Also don't complain about Daves prices, he's got that hugh skylight in his house to
fix.
Regards, Bill
--
Opinions expressed are mine not necessarily my employers.
All other standard disclaimers apply!
Remove nospam. To email reply.
George Jefferson
:> who need 91? Seriously, do you have a large race boat crowd?
:
:Up here in the great white north, we have plenty of beasts from the
:sixties still runing strong. According to OMC's octane charts...
you do know 1960's charts refer to a different octane system..
For that matter, do they use "R+M/2" in canada as in us?
Anyway, Good for you to offer 91, but I'd not like paying a
premium price for high test that I don't need.
Dave Brown
George Jefferson wrote:
> Anyway, Good for you to offer 91, but I'd not like paying a
> premium price for high test that I don't need.
As long as you aren't one of the one's calling us crooks, no problem at
all from here. :-)
Dave
Marcus G Bell
> :Up here in the great white north, we have plenty of beasts from the
> :sixties still runing strong. According to OMC's octane charts...
George Jefferson (geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu) wrote:
> you do know 1960's charts refer to a different octane system..
> For that matter, do they use "R+M/2" in canada as in us?
Just to be pedantic, that should be (R+M)/2 to maintain proper
operator precedence :-)
Since you bring up the different octane rating system of the '60s,
could you fill us in about it?
George Jefferson
:Since you bring up the different octane rating system of the '60s,
:could you fill us in about it?
I think they just used the "R" number, or some such. In any case
the required octane numbers for old engines is a few points higher
than what you actually need under the r-m average system.
I'm no expert, if you think I'm making it up, try asking on
rec.autos.antique, it comes up about once a month..
Larry KN4IM
Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>Now my fur is up -- why are marinas being associated with this tar?
>
>My tanks are clean and the gas is a fresh as it can be as they're turned
>over every 3 or 4 days. Futhermore, marine tanks are no more likely to
>be conatminated by water than highway pumps. Why do you make these
>comments?
>
>Regards,
>
> Dave Brown
> Brown's Marina
What'd you do with all the gas from last fall? Did the jobber take it
back??
Dave Brown
Larry KN4IM wrote:
> What'd you do with all the gas from last fall? Did the jobber take it
> back??
Who said I had any left? If my timing is poor and I have some left after
the boats are gone, it takes less than a month to finish it off in the
marina vehicles.
regards,
Steve
Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca> wrote in article
<3517C8...@sympatico.ca>...
> WHardy1902 wrote:
>
> > >Uh...marine gasoline is the same as the gasoline at your favorite gas
> > >station.
> >
> > Except that it's cheaper, cleaner, fresher and less likely to be
contaminated
> > with water. If it's an older outboard, stay away from gasohol.
>
> Now my fur is up -- why are marinas being associated with this tar?
>
> My tanks are clean and the gas is a fresh as it can be as they're turned
> over every 3 or 4 days. Futhermore, marine tanks are no more likely to
> be conatminated by water than highway pumps. Why do you make these
> comments?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Brown
> Brown's Marina
>
Dave, you seem to take EVERY negative comment regarding boat dealers
or marinas personaly. What he said is that AS A GENERAL RULE, most
gas stations sell more gas per month than most marinas, and as a result
IT STANDS TO REASON that gas from a gas station is more likely to be
fresher than gas from a marina, an observation that I happen to agree with.
I never got bad gas from a gas station. The only time I did get bad gas was
from
a marina in N.J. Since I cannot interview the marina owner or inspect his
fuel reciepts, or take a sample form his tank and send it to a lab for
analysis,
I choose to play the odds.......... That gas from a gas station is LESS
LIKELY
to be contaminated or stale than from a marina.
Besides, for trailer boaters it's just easier to make one stop for gas,
ice,
soda pop, etc, than it is to make two.
And Dave, BTW, IMHO your constant replies extolling the virtues of your
business are beginning to sound very inappropriate for a news group. If
you want to advertise your marina and boat dealership, it seems to me you
should pay for a web page, take out an ad in the Sunday paper, or some
time on the radio. Using a discussion group like this to convince all of us
"how lucky" we are to have a dealer like you (a comment you made in
a reply to the "mooring cover" thread), smacks of more than a little odor.
Steve Leinwand
Larry KN4IM
brin...@aol.com (Brinboat) wrote:
>
>There are many factors involved. The first is a higher fuel grade. Most
>marinas are pumping a mid-grade fuel rather than the regular grade. Marine
>engines are almost always operating under load; so it is felt that the
>additional octane may prolong engine life. In the case of outboard motors, use
>of 89 octane or above is recommended by all the major manufacturers to combat
>carbon build-up.
Maybe you'd better drop by any Mercury dealer and read a new owner's
manual. Yours is obviously out of date. Gas is now being, in our
infinite wisdom, pumped up with alcohol to 89 and 92 octane...ethanol,
methanol and MTBE (the stuff polluting CA reservoirs). Remember REAL
101 octane gas? In your dreams, now. Add ethanol to 87
octane...VOILA...92 OCTANE!
Curious as to why my new '97 Mercury Sport Jet 175 V-6 manual said
only 87 octane regular, I called Merc...nice people! We had a long
talk about ALCOHOLs as octane boosters, almost everywhere but CA where
they use MTBE. Alcohol, literally, sucks water out of thin air as the
tank empties and outside air, humid as hell on the water, is drawn in
the tank vent. The alcohol dries the air out and leaves it in the
tank...on the bottom for the pickup tube. Pumped to the engine,
because boat manufacturers can't afford a $30 water separator in your
$25,000 runabout and stay in the black, this water ends up in the
float bowls or injection system of your motor. I suppose in a
4-stroke, like your car, this isn't much of a problem. HOWEVER, in a
2-stroke, the ingested water is now sucked up through the carb and
dumped in with the lube oil INTO YOUR CRANKCASE! Merc tells me it
rusts everything in sight.. crank bearings, carb parts, piston rings,
all those little moving parts that give us great weekends.....
So, DON'T USE HIGHER TEST GAS. It's also very hard on engine seals!
>
>A shorter selling season requires a marina operator to cover his costs during a
>six month season here in the northeast. In fact, at most locations, only June,
>July, and August produce the profits needed: and a couple of bad weekends can
>wipe out the entire month's profit.
So, the gas just sits there...on the water....collecting water? It's
a thought....low turnover.
>
>The largest factor however is the cost of environmental compliance. All
>distributors of bulk fuel must meet the same EPA and DEC regulations. It
>doesn't matter whether you operate a small marina with a 1,000 gallon tank,
>pumping 2-3 thousand gallons per season or high-volume filling station with
>multiple 25,000 gallon tanks. The environment must be protected. Unfortunately,
>because of their location, marinas face additional costs."
The tanks are required now to be above ground. What costs??
>
>Good luck and good boating,
>For those marinas with long fuel docks, the cost to install and maintain the
>necessary fuel delivery system is very high. Special piping and fittings are
>required to ensure that no fuel can be leaked into the water.
Looked just like galvanized pipe to me...musta been an optical
illusion. The pump/hose and nozzles look the same.
>
>All marinas must provide an emergency fuel spill containment system at the
>pump. All marinas are required to have Pollution Insurance. This is very costly
>and, again, hurts the little guy the most. Effective in December 1998, new
>EPA regulations will be in effect that will require all bulk fuel storage and
>delivery systems to be in compliance or to be permanently shut down
>Additionally, the new regulations spell out more detailed record keeping as
>part of a new leak monitoring system.
>
>Unfortunately, these new regulations may prove to be so burdensome to some
>marinas that they may go out of the fuel business. So, when you tie your boat
>up to the gas dock, please remember that clean water benefits us all and that
>we must all share the responsibility of keeping it that way.
>
>Jim Brinson - President of the Empire State Marine Trades Association (ESMTA)
>
Tell us more about this "fuel recovery system"! I haven't seen so
much as a floating collar anywhere around here. Our typical marina
here has an above ground tank, plumbed in with 1" galvanized to an old
mechanical dial pump that looks like Texaco threw it away in 1966.
The fancy ones have hose reels taken off old fuel oil delivery trucks
with an added electric motor to run the reel gears. Most have 2 or 3
hoses hooked end-to-end laying on the dock with the nozzle stuffed
into an old piece of water pipe nailed to a post so noone steps on the
nozzle. The nozzle itself came with the 1966 pump because they can't
use those BIG END nozzles on unleaded cars, anymore. Am I close,
guys?? Is that what YOUR local marina's fuel delivery equipment looks
like? I know where there's one with the little balls that splash
around in a glass bubble to show you gas is moving inside the pump!
Yep...all the modern equipment at every marina in SC....sure...(c;
Larry....$.86/gallon for Texaco by my house. $1.50/gallon for Texaco
by my boat....pure greed.
Larry KN4IM
Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>George Jefferson wrote:
>>
>> :C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
>> :fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
>> :marina.
>>
>> who need 91? Seriously, do you have a large race boat crowd?
>
>Up here in the great white north, we have plenty of beasts from the
>sixties still runing strong. According to OMC's octane charts, there are
>some out there that needs this. Furthermore, I'm a fan of higher octaine
>fuels in general and since I'll be using the very same gas...... :-)
>
>dave
That would be fine if you could GET 1960's type high-test gas....but
you cannot. Call Mercury and ask them! They are the ones fighting to
keep the motors unrusted.
George Jefferson
:> What'd you do with all the gas from last fall?
:
:Who said I had any left?
is condensation a problem in empty tanks? ( can win can you <g> )
Larry KN4IM
Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Dave Brown
> Brown's Marina
Dave, I think you are one-of-a-kind....really. That is not a joke.
Dave Brown
George Jefferson wrote:
> :> What'd you do with all the gas from last fall?
> is condensation a problem in empty tanks? ( can win can you <g> )
I knew when I posted it I was setting myself up, but decied to see how
smart you guys were <g>. For whatever reason (perhaps being
underground), I have never had a condensation problem in my tanks (or
any water for that matter). Used to on my highway pumps though (no
longer there). :-)
Dave Brown
Steve wrote:
> Dave, you seem to take EVERY negative comment regarding boat dealers
> or marinas personaly.
Could it be, gosh, that I and my industry are constantly under attack?
> What he said is that AS A GENERAL RULE, most
> gas stations sell more gas per month than most marinas, and as a result
> IT STANDS TO REASON that gas from a gas station is more likely to be
> fresher than gas from a marina, an observation that I happen to agree with.
And you've made that based on what information? A land based operation
has larger tanks to meet the volume. Our tank volume is set to meet the
volume as well (after all, why would I put 10,000 gallon tanks in if I
could get by with 3,000?).
> I never got bad gas from a gas station. The only time I did get bad gas was
> from a marina in N.J. Since I cannot interview the marina owner or inspect his
> fuel reciepts, or take a sample form his tank and send it to a lab for
> analysis, I choose to play the odds.......... That gas from a gas station is LESS
> LIKELY to be contaminated or stale than from a marina.
Only time I ever got bad gas was from a highway station, yet I couldn't
possibly fathom myself making any kind or correlation between that
singular statistic and the general statements made in here.
> Besides, for trailer boaters it's just easier to make one stop for gas,
> ice, soda pop, etc, than it is to make two.
An excellent reason to buy your gas at a highway location and one I
obviously couldn't object to. Hey, we CAN agree on some things. :-)
> And Dave, BTW, IMHO your constant replies extolling the virtues of your
> business are beginning to sound very inappropriate for a news group. If
> you want to advertise your marina and boat dealership, it seems to me you
> should pay for a web page, take out an ad in the Sunday paper, or some
> time on the radio. Using a discussion group like this to convince all of us
> "how lucky" we are to have a dealer like you (a comment you made in
> a reply to the "mooring cover" thread), smacks of more than a little odor.
I gotta tell you Steve, your comment almost made me take my ball and go
home as I'm growing just as tired of defending the industry as you are
hearing about it. But then I thought -- who the hell are you?
In not one single post of my 2000+ in this newsgroup have I ever
advertised my business or attempted to gain business via this newsgroup.
Indeed, I am offended as anyone when spam gets into the newsgroup and I
resent your implication. When asked in private e-mail for information
about buying from me, the response is the same -- buy from your local
dealer. I leave my business name in my signature to add credibility to
my posts where it is warranted (eg I don't put it there when I pass
along a joke). As for the Web page comment, I *do* have one -- I just
choose not to ad it to my sig (although I think those who do can also
add credibility to their posts as well). To date, I have not sold one
single part as a result of a contact made on this newsgroup.
My time here has been mostly handing out advice in my area of expertise
and directing people the their local dealers and suppliers for that
service. On occasion, I'll go off on a tangent about things I find
personally interesting, or in defense of the industry when someone takes
yet another uninformed potshot. To this I say, it's the cost of having
me around to get the good stuff I guess. The day your opinion grows to a
groundswell of opposition to my participation in this NG is the day I'm
outa here. In the meantime, accept the bad with the good and move on.
Oh, and one more thing I like to do in this newsgroup is correct
individuals who post inaccurate or misleading information. One
particular post comes to mind and I'll repost it here to help jog your
memory:
>> Can someone tell me what the differences are between cross-flow
>> and loop charged methods? Does one offer any fuel saving over
>> the other? I am assuming that loop charged is the better method.
>> I come to this conclusion only because all the newer designs are
>> loop charged (With the exception of some smaller models).
>> Tom Greenli
> Cross flow is a 2 stroke design where one piston pressurizes the crankcase on
> it's downstroke, and forces fuel mixture into another cylinder. When the other
> piston moves downward, it likewise forces fuel mixture into the first, etc, etc.
> Loop charging is when the piston moves downward, pressurizing the
> crankcase, and forces mixture into it's own cylinder.
I've purposely left the signature off this, but most people should
remember who the author of this incorrect information was. You see
Steve, I'll always have a role here and, apparently, so will you.
Regards,
Marcus G Bell
> :Since you bring up the different octane rating system of the '60s,
> :could you fill us in about it?
George Jefferson (geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu) wrote:
> I think they just used the "R" number, or some such. In any case
> the required octane numbers for old engines is a few points higher
> than what you actually need under the r-m average system.
That makes sense. As I said in another thread (maybe this one),
outboards respond more to motor octane number than research octane
number. The research test is less stringent and is more generous then
the motor test, explaining why rating by research alone would require
a higher number to be sure that the motor number is high enough.
(R+M)/2 rating also means that the refiners can boost whichever rating
is cheapest and you have no information about it. Your motor may
require more motor octane than you get in 87 (R+M)/2 pump grade gas.
> I'm no expert, if you think I'm making it up, try asking on
> rec.autos.antique, it comes up about once a month..
I'll check DejaNews before I ask a FAQ! Thanks for the tip.
Meantime, I'd bet that Dave Brown was looking at an octane chart
updated to modern specs. Service bulletins about gasoline are quite
common.
Bob Hesse
Yu're describing a scenario in the U.S. ??? Our state outlawed that back
woods stuff 20 years ago. Where's your state EPA??? Our marinas (at
least the ones I go to) are about 20 cents higher. Can't believe anyone
is allowed to operate in the manner you described this side of
Belize.....
Dave Brown
Larry KN4IM wrote:
> >Who said I had any left? If my timing is poor and I have some left after
> >the boats are gone, it takes less than a month to finish it off in the
> >marina vehicles.
> Dave, I think you are one-of-a-kind....really. That is not a joke.
But are you being complimentary? :-)
Dave
Steve
Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca> wrote in article
Well Dave does that make you feel superior ? Yes I got that one wrong. I
remembered
reading an article about cross flow vs loop charged outboards a few years
ago, and
do admit I got some details wrong. So what ?
Do you imply that I should stop participating in this N.G. because one of
my
replies was technically incorrect (although not really THAT incorrect). I
did get the
loop charging part right.
"your" industry isn't under attack. First of all we all partcipate in the
boating industry,
otherwise we wouldn't be reading this N.G. The vast majority of people here
are
customers. We all have our experiences, good and bad of dealers,
manufacturers,
marina operators, etc. The boating industry isn't going to shrivel up and
die because
many of us are dissatisfied with individuals or companies. What "horror
stories" like
mine about mooring covers and trim relays do best, is to make others think
for themselves
and practice a little healthy "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware). That
is why your
comments assuming that boat owners need "expert advice" on choosing a boat
cover is so aggravating. Boat owners need to get their own impartial
information from
as many sources as possible, and then make up their own mind.
I have no objection to anyone participating in this group. It just bugs me
when I
read posts that sound condescending to everyone else who's "not in the
know"
(not a dealer or marina operator). I'm sure you run your business in an
examplary
manner, however constatntly reminding everyone that you do makes you sound
just a bit overbearing at times (sorry, that's my opinion).
Steve
Myles J. Swift
Steve wrote:
>Snip
>
> I never got bad gas from a gas station.
I have to thank the oil companies for the amount of work I did on
automotive fuel injection systems that had gotten bad gas, water in gas,
and/or too much alcohol in gas. We used to have a sign in the shop,
"Don't make the $700 mistake". Ten years ago that was the average cost
to repair problems caused by a tank of bad gas. IMO the most reliable
brands for fuel injection system maintenance were and still are Texaco
and Chevron.
The only time I did get bad gas was
> from
> a marina in N.J. Since I cannot interview the marina owner or inspect his
> fuel reciepts, or take a sample form his tank and send it to a lab for
> analysis,
> I choose to play the odds.......... That gas from a gas station is LESS
> LIKELY
> to be contaminated or stale than from a marina.
This is generally true for major brand name stations. The discount gas
stations get the fuel of mixed heritage. When the pipeline changes from
one brand or octane to another the is accomplished by a "pig" which is
placed in the pipeline to separate the two. The last x cubic feet of one
and the first x cubic feet of the next are diverted and usually sold to
the local discount brand stations. The pig also cleans the inside of the
pipe so any contamination from that process also goes into the off-brand
supplies.
A marina with a small storage tank will get fresh gas more often in high
season than a retail station with 30,000 gallons of tankage. The big
station rarely pumps a tank dry before adding new fuel, and they want to
have enough on hand to make it through holiday weekends. The price of
fuel can also vary by the volume per delivery.
***********************************************************************
Myles J. Swift - Computer Assistance Inc. - Microcomputer specialists
since 1977. Makers of GarageKeeper and Motive Power software for
automotive and other mechanical repair and service businesses.
Leno and Pam
I pumped a bad tank of gas into my bass boat one time.....At a Gas
station on the highway....
Other than that, I've gotten good gas everywhere I've choses to fill
up..
If I am someplace where I don't really know the quality of the Marina, I
just kinda ask around.
I usually stop into a local bait store drop a buck or two, and ask "
where's the best place to by gas ? " This usually works....
Don't get me wrong, I like to fill up for a little as possible, I mean I
don't like to throw money around, But if I am gonna be on the water for
more than a tankfull I don't mind paying a little more for the
concienance of filling on the water.
Hell everyone has to make a living.....Leno
P.S. If I ever get up to Dave B's Marina, I will stop in, fill up and
give everyone a report.. :)
Marcus G Bell
Steve (sclei...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> Well Dave does that make you feel superior ? Yes I got that one
> wrong. I remembered reading an article about cross flow vs loop
> charged outboards a few years ago, and do admit I got some details
> wrong. So what ? Do you imply that I should stop participating in
> this N.G. because one of my replies was technically incorrect
> (although not really THAT incorrect). I did get the loop charging
> part right.
OK, I was in that discussion too. I'll get to it a bit later.
Steve, you bring up some valid points in the parts I snipped about the
"pompousity level" that can creep into posts. I'll take that to heart
myself. Good points about customers getting information from as many
sources as possible too.
You were however incorrect about the cross-flow vs. loop-charge thing,
and now you are incorrect about just how incorrect you really were.
The scenario for loop-charging you described was correct for both
loop-charged and cross-flow and was hence not a good differentiator
betwen the two, so I would not characterize that part as "right". The
scenario for cross-flow you described was correct for neither.
"So what?" you quite reasonably asked. The danger of posting incorrect
information is that someone may believe you, somebody else who knows
better may fail to correct you, and somebody else might not see the
correction. For this reason, I toss out about 1/3 of the posts I start
to make, as I realize I'm just not sure enough about it to go "on
record".
The same can apply to what customers say about dealers (and vice
versa). Things are presented as fact in certain terms, when it really
comes down to a solitary experience by a solitary soul. Good dirt
makes for good newsgroup fodder, but is it fair to paint whole groups
with the brush that can only rightfully apply to a single situation?
Unfortunately, nastiness is easiest to remember, mistrust lingers, and
many are cut by the shrapnel that is sent hurtling from the bombs we
lay at each other's feet.
My plea is for cooler heads to prevail here, for perceived iniquities
to be rebuffed with calm statements of fact or clarification. We are
humans with emotions, and it is easy to get backed into a corner and
say stuff you wouldn't normally say, and to back someone else into a
corner too. Cheap shots are taken on all sides, and it needn't be so.
Though I contribute plenty (in sheer volume at least), I continue to
learn from the group more than I bring to it. I'm sure most are in
that same position. There's room for all of us here, and we are all
the better for it.
Dave Brown
Steve wrote:
> Well Dave does that make you feel superior ? Yes I got that one wrong.
Hell, I'd be lying if I didn't get at least a smile out of that one. ;-)
> remembered reading an article about cross flow vs loop charged outboards a few years
> ago, and do admit I got some details wrong. So what ?
> Do you imply that I should stop participating in this N.G. because one of
> my replies was technically incorrect (although not really THAT incorrect). I
> did get the loop charging part right.
Actually, it was more of the 'those without sin casting the first stone'
thingies. :-)
> buyer beware). That is why your comments assuming that boat owners need "expert
> advice" on choosing a boat cover is so aggravating. Boat owners need to get their own
> impartial information from as many sources as possible, and then make up their own
> mind. I have no objection to anyone participating in this group. It just bugs me
> when I read posts that sound condescending to everyone else who's "not in the
> know" (not a dealer or marina operator). I'm sure you run your business in an
> examplary manner, however constatntly reminding everyone that you do makes you sound
> just a bit overbearing at times (sorry, that's my opinion).
One last time then (like I haven't siad it enough) -- my main thrust on
this NG is education and part of that philosophy includes reminding
people that cost and value are two different things. When I say your
local marine operator can offer somthing of value to counteract
someone's claim that we're just a bunch or rip off artists -- you view
that as condescending whereas I view that as giving the readers of this
NG 'full information' so that they can make an informed buying
decsision. If the consumer has all the correct and full information, I
don't care where he buys. When he buys at X-mart because he's been lead
to believe he get's better value there buy those who may not have all
the fcats themselves, I have a problem with that. The way I read your
response, it's OK for you to give others 'full information' about where
to buy their parts cheap, but when I counter your post with further
information about value, you call me condedscending. Go figure.
regards,
R Goddard
I believe that one of the main factors in determining marina gasoline
pricing is competition. Arround Solomons Island Md, where there is a lot
of competition, gasoline at the dock is only about 5 cents higher than the
quick serve gas marts for 89 octane.
--
bob
D&B Marine
http://www.tqci.net/~dbmarine
Brinboat <brin...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199803241228...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> As regards marina fuel prices, I wrote the following piece for a recent
boat
> show handout. I hope that it answers some of the concerns about prices.
>
>
>
> "Not too long ago, while at a marina, I overheard the following :
>
> "$1.75 a gallon? You're kidding aren't you? Just because you have a
captive
> audience is no reason to rip us off. The problem with all you marina
guys is
> that you think we're made of money. I don't mind paying a little more
but, come
> on, this is almost 35 cents more per gallon than I pay for my car! "
>
> This was a one-way conversation with the customer berating the gas
attendant at
> a level loud enough to be heard from anywhere near the gas dock. The
> attendant, who had probably heard it all before, just nodded and mumbled
"Yes
> sir."
>
> OK, so the customer was out of line, but what of his charges? After all,
gas
> prices at your marina are considerably higher than at your local gas
station.
> How come?
>
> There are many factors involved. The first is a higher fuel grade.
Most
> marinas are pumping a mid-grade fuel rather than the regular grade.
Marine
> engines are almost always operating under load; so it is felt that the
> additional octane may prolong engine life. In the case of outboard
motors, use
> of 89 octane or above is recommended by all the major manufacturers to
combat
> carbon build-up.
>
> A shorter selling season requires a marina operator to cover his costs
during a
> six month season here in the northeast. In fact, at most locations, only
June,
> July, and August produce the profits needed: and a couple of bad weekends
can
> wipe out the entire month's profit.
>
> The largest factor however is the cost of environmental compliance. All
> distributors of bulk fuel must meet the same EPA and DEC regulations. It
> doesn't matter whether you operate a small marina with a 1,000 gallon
tank,
> pumping 2-3 thousand gallons per season or high-volume filling station
with
> multiple 25,000 gallon tanks. The environment must be protected.
Unfortunately,
> because of their location, marinas face additional costs."
>
> Good luck and good boating,
> For those marinas with long fuel docks, the cost to install and maintain
the
> necessary fuel delivery system is very high. Special piping and fittings
are
> required to ensure that no fuel can be leaked into the water.
G. Gerald Barr
While competition may be a valid factor in many cases, there used to be a
branded independent gas station in Keswick Ontario ( I have not been there
for a few years, but I doubt the situation has changed) where the road
passed on the east side and the water passed on the west side. At the most,
there was 75 feet between the road pumps and the water pumps and presumably
a common set of tanks somewhere underground. The price differential used to
be about $0.10 per litre.
I suppose, to be charitable, the expensive gas was competitive with the
other marina's however it always seemed more like an example of price
gouging since the normal marina argument of low volume, higher cost would
not apply.
R Goddard wrote in message <01bd579f$b37137c0$8d76d3cf@bob>...
>I believe that one of the main factors in determining marina gasoline
>pricing is competition. Arround Solomons Island Md, where there is a lot
>of competition, gasoline at the dock is only about 5 cents higher than the
>quick serve gas marts for 89 octane.
>--
>
>bob
>D&B Marine
>http://www.tqci.net/~dbmarine
>
snip
Del Cecchi
> > WHardy1902 wrote:
> >
> > > >Uh...marine gasoline is the same as the gasoline at your favorite gas
> > > >station.
> >
>
> Dave, you seem to take EVERY negative comment regarding boat dealers
> gas stations sell more gas per month than most marinas, and as a result
> IT STANDS TO REASON that gas from a gas station is more likely to be
> fresher than gas from a marina, an observation that I happen to agree with.
>
> from
> a marina in N.J. Since I cannot interview the marina owner or inspect his
> fuel reciepts, or take a sample form his tank and send it to a lab for
> analysis,
> I choose to play the odds.......... That gas from a gas station is LESS
> LIKELY
> to be contaminated or stale than from a marina.
>
> ice,
> soda pop, etc, than it is to make two.
>
> business are beginning to sound very inappropriate for a news group. If
> you want to advertise your marina and boat dealership, it seems to me you
> should pay for a web page, take out an ad in the Sunday paper, or some
> time on the radio. Using a discussion group like this to convince all of us
> "how lucky" we are to have a dealer like you (a comment you made in
> a reply to the "mooring cover" thread), smacks of more than a little odor.
>
>
>
That's right, his advertising is so pervasive that I have been
brainwashed. I'm gonna jump in the van, hitch up the boat and head
towards Thunder Bay, gateway to the Great White North and first step on
the way to Brown's Marina.
And after a few days, when I get there, I'm gonna fill up with gas, put
on my new mooring cover, change the spark plugs, and wait for the ice to
melt. Oops, I have a Mercury. Have to go somewhere else for the plugs.
And the Quicksilver Oil.
But seriously, it is hard to think that Dave's posts are advertising
when it is quite unlikely that any of us will get anywhere near his
Marina. Not that I wouldn't like to, but it is kind of far.
So just mellow out, if you would. Like I might get sort of irritated if
people kept posting and saying that certain large computer manufacturers
that sell servers to the midrange build crap. :-) Not that some of our
competitors........ (just kidding)
Del Cecchi
Rochester, MN
Curtis Wheeler
Marcus G Bell wrote:
>
> > :Since you bring up the different octane rating system of the '60s,
> > :could you fill us in about it?
> George Jefferson (geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu) wrote:
> > I think they just used the "R" number, or some such. In any case
> > the required octane numbers for old engines is a few points higher
> > than what you actually need under the r-m average system.
The research number was widely used in the early 60's because it was
closest to the what cars needed at the time.
Boats would be different. Running at higher, consistant loads means the
the motor octane number is more meaningful.
> That makes sense. As I said in another thread (maybe this one),
> outboards respond more to motor octane number than research octane
> number. The research test is less stringent and is more generous then
> the motor test, explaining why rating by research alone would require
> a higher number to be sure that the motor number is high enough.
>
> (R+M)/2 rating also means that the refiners can boost whichever rating
> is cheapest and you have no information about it. Your motor may
> require more motor octane than you get in 87 (R+M)/2 pump grade gas.
The motor method is not really more "stringent" than the research
method. The tests determine octane numbers under different conditions.
Both methods use the same type of test engine, but things like rpm,
temperature (coolant, oil, and intake air temps) are changed.
The MON will almost always be lower than the RON in gasoline. The
difference in these number is referred to as the "sensitivity". The
sensitivty in most US gas is no more than about 10, and the recommended
minimum MON is 82 for all unleaded gas. So if you buy from quality
sources that keep sensitivity in check, that would be 82 MON for regular
unleaded, and 86 MON for Dave's gas.
--
Curtis
Larry KN4IM
Steve
In article <351c4ecf...@news.MCI2000.com>, noj...@mail.please (Lee Lindquist) wrote:
>
>Steve,
>
>I strongly disagree with your comments. Dave has graciously offered
>his knowledge here for us all. Never has he offered anything for
>sale, rather he refers folks to their local dealer.
>
>If you don't enjoy his posts perhaps you could just use a kill-filter.
No Lee, as a matter of fact I learn a lot from some of his posts and would
never use a kill file for that. I'm just a little annoyed at the tone of some
of his recent posts, that sound (to me at least) condescending. Taking
issue with my opinions is OK. Ridiculing my (or others) opinions on
the basis that he's a dealer and knows what's best for boat owners
is not.
Steve
>
>
>On 24 Mar 1998 20:15:59 GMT, "Steve" <sclei...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>And Dave, BTW, IMHO your constant replies extolling the virtues of your
>>business are beginning to sound very inappropriate for a news group. If
>>you want to advertise your marina and boat dealership, it seems to me you
>>should pay for a web page, take out an ad in the Sunday paper, or some
>>time on the radio. Using a discussion group like this to convince all of us
>>"how lucky" we are to have a dealer like you (a comment you made in
>>a reply to the "mooring cover" thread), smacks of more than a little odor.
>
>
> - Lee
>
> lindquist 'at' ibm 'decimal-point' net
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>From: Dave Brown <dave....@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, Mar 24, 1998 09:50 EST
>Message-id: <3517C8...@sympatico.ca>
>
>WHardy1902 wrote:
>
>> >Uh...marine gasoline is the same as the gasoline at your favorite gas
>> >station.
>>
>contaminated
>> with water. If it's an older outboard, stay away from gasohol.
>
>Now my fur is up -- why are marinas being associated with this tar?
>
>My tanks are clean and the gas is a fresh as it can be as they're turned
>over every 3 or 4 days. Futhermore, marine tanks are no more likely to
>be conatminated by water than highway pumps. Why do you make these
>comments?
>
>Regards,
>
> Dave Brown
Don't get your shorts in a knot Dave. In my neck of the woods (Upper Chesapeake
Bay) marina fuel tanks sit near empty 4-6 months out of the year. More air
space means more condensation.
While it is common for an automotive gas station to move 10,000 gallons a day,
most marinas would be lucky to sell 10,000 gallons a month. In a high volume
automotive gas station, you will never get a load of gasoline that was left
over from last season.
At my own marina the gas tanks are buried underground. But this area is
frequently flooded at high tide so the tank is actually under water. Now a
minor leak in the top of the tank may never leak fuel out as the tank is never
completely filled but water can and does get in very easily.
Now I'm not advocating hauling gas cans down to your dock to fill up your
yacht, for a trailer boat there's no better gas than that which comes from a
modern, high volume gas station. Small trailer boats are much easier to gas up
on solid ground. They aren't getting bounced around and spilling fuel all over
the place Plus it makes the line shorter for the yachts at the marina.
Not Harding
It's Hardy
As in Hardy Har Har
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>Date: Tue, Mar 24, 1998 10:08 EST
>Message-id: <6f8ia5$43l$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>
>
>:C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
>:fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
>:marina.
>
>who need 91? Seriously, do you have a large race boat crowd?
>george jefferson : geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
>to reply simply press "r"
> -- I hate editing addresses more than I hate the
My brother is running a 33' Chris Craft with twin 440 cid Chryslers. And a lot
more old boats out there still running that were built for leaded gas. I don't
mind the single grade. My GM 350 thinks it's a treat. It just doesn't like the
chunks.
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>Date: Tue, Mar 24, 1998 10:14 EST
>Message-id: <3517CDBF...@gate.net>
>
>Dave Brown wrote:
>>
>> Harry Krause wrote:
>>
>> > The major manufacturers of outboards recommend
>> > "standard" grade gasoline, i.e., "octane" of 87. Chevron's Techron
>additive
>> > keeps carbon from building up. It is in the company's
>> > "regular" gas.
>>
>> C'mon Harry, you're smarter than that! I have to carry a single grade of
>> fuel that works for all engines in all years and that means 91 at my
>> grades of fuel?
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Dave Brown
>> Brown's Marina
>
>
>We have no argument. The original poster claimed outboards needed a higher
>octane fuel. They don't. Other marine engines do, so, yes, a marina must sell
>higher octane to take care of its other customers.
>
>At my dad's marine, he sold Sunoco. All the gas was in one tank and the
>"octane"
>ingredients were in another, or so I recall. You could mix up whatever you
>needed.
>
>
>Harry Krause
>EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address
Close enuf Harry. Actually it was two tanks of gasoline. In one tank was
"economy" aka "190" which was 86 octane. In the other tank was "260" which was
93 or 94 octane. Every thing else was a mix between the two. The 260 was the
rage in the sixties with all of the drag racing in town. I used to have a Ford
Falcon that would run on kerosene so I wasn't buying much "260"
Christopher Paull
I though that Sunoco 260 was more like 98 octane, and before
that they had a Sunoco 280 which was like 101 or 102 octane...
In article <199803250402...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, whard...@aol.com (WHardy1902) writes:
|> Lines: 53
|> Message-ID: <199803250402...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
|> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
|> X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
|> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
|> References: <3517CDBF...@gate.net>
--
Chris Paull -- cpa...@mti.sgi.com -- http://reality.sgi.com/employees/cpaull
USPS: MIPS Technologies, Inc. 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd.
P.O. Box 7311 M/S 10L-175 MountainView, CA 94039-7311
PHONE: (650)-933-4424 VOICE: "Yo, Chris!" -- Standard Disclaimer --
"Mere words do not suffice, to understand you must experience."
Curtis Wheeler
Larry KN4IM wrote:
> Remember REAL
> 101 octane gas?
Nope. Never was "real" 101 octane gas to my knowledge. "Real" octane
numbers only go up to 100. Anything above that is derived from other
methods, usually for supercharged engine needs.
--
Curtis
Peter Kay
Any discussion you have re. the price of fuel should be tempered by the fact
that in the UK the price of a gallon of leaded petrol is about $5.30, this
is why we run smaller boats and engines than you guys!!
A typical days motoring in my 17ft boat with 50hp Evinrude costs me around
$50, I hate to think what it would cost with 100+hp.
Incidentally, we are told under no circumstances to run our engines on
unleaded fuel, how do you get away with it?
Peter Kay
Harry Krause wrote in message <3517AC67...@gate.net>...
:Brinboat wrote:
:>
:> As regards marina fuel prices, I wrote the following piece for a recent
boat
:> show handout. I hope that it answers some of the concerns about prices.
:>
:> "Not too long ago, while at a marina, I overheard the following :
:>
:> "$1.75 a gallon? You're kidding aren't you? Just because you
have a captive...
Brinboat
Larry wrote:
>Maybe you'd better drop by any Mercury dealer and read a new owner's
>manual. Yours is obviously out of date. Gas is now being, in our
>infinite wisdom, pumped up with alcohol to 89 and 92 octane...ethanol,
>methanol and MTBE (the stuff polluting CA reservoirs). R
Thank you, I'll check into the current reccomendations
.>Unfortunately,
>>because of their location, marinas face additional costs."
>
>The tanks are required now to be above ground. What costs??
>>
Larry, I have a briefcase full of of the new requirements. First let me tell
you that tanks are not "required to be above ground". While many operators may
opt for that method the EPA does not require it and, indeed, local zoning laws
in many areas prohibit such tanks.
If the exisiting tanks were not manufactured in the last 10 years they must be
physically inspected and then either be brought into compliance or
permananently removed. This inspection can involve putting personell or a
camera within the tank. The compliance requirements are expensive and would
not make very interesting reading for the newsgroup.
>Tell us more about this "fuel recovery system"! I haven't seen so
>much as a floating collar anywhere around here. Our typical marina
>here has an above ground tank, plumbed in with 1" galvanized to an old
>mechanical dial pump that looks like Texaco threw it away in 1966.
>The fancy ones have hose reels taken off old fuel oil delivery trucks
>with an added electric motor to run the reel gears. Most have 2 or 3
>hoses hooked end-to-end laying on the dock with the nozzle stuffed
>into an old piece of water pipe nailed to a post so noone steps on the
>nozzle. The nozzle itself came with the 1966 pump because they can't
>use those BIG END nozzles on unleaded cars, anymore. Am I close,
>guys?? Is that what YOUR local marina's fuel delivery equipment looks
>like? I know where there's one with the little balls that splash
>around in a glass bubble to show you gas is moving inside the pump!
>
>Yep...all the modern equipment at every marina in SC....sure...(c;
>L
By December 22, 1998 older systems must be upgraded. The specialized
containment piping must be used. These regulations are not new.
Unforunately, many marinas claim they didn't know about them or have chosen to
ignore them. They will soon be out of the fuel delivery business.
If you want more information (It sounds as if you could use it) please contact
the EPA. The bottom line Larry, is that keeping our water clean is going to be
expensive.
Dave Brown
Peter Kay wrote:
> Any discussion you have re. the price of fuel should be tempered by the fact
> that in the UK the price of a gallon of leaded petrol is about $5.30, this
> is why we run smaller boats and engines than you guys!!
> A typical days motoring in my 17ft boat with 50hp Evinrude costs me around
> $50, I hate to think what it would cost with 100+hp.
> Incidentally, we are told under no circumstances to run our engines on
> unleaded fuel, how do you get away with it?
There is no reason your two stroke outboard needs leaded fuel. Has
somebody been saying otherwise over there?
Marcus G Bell
Curtis Wheeler (cwhe...@ccnet.com) wrote:
> The research number was widely used in the early 60's because it was
> closest to the what cars needed at the time.
> Boats would be different. Running at higher, consistant loads means the
> the motor octane number is more meaningful.
We agree.
> Marcus G Bell wrote:
> > That makes sense. As I said in another thread (maybe this one),
> > outboards respond more to motor octane number than research octane
> > number. The research test is less stringent and is more generous then
> > the motor test, explaining why rating by research alone would require
> > a higher number to be sure that the motor number is high enough.
Curtis wrote:
> The motor method is not really more "stringent" than the research
> method. The tests determine octane numbers under different conditions.
> Both methods use the same type of test engine, but things like rpm,
> temperature (coolant, oil, and intake air temps) are changed.
> The MON will almost always be lower than the RON in gasoline. The
> difference in these number is referred to as the "sensitivity". The
> sensitivty in most US gas is no more than about 10, and the
> recommended minimum MON is 82 for all unleaded gas. So if you buy
> from quality sources that keep sensitivity in check, that would be
> 82 MON for regular unleaded, and 86 MON for Dave's gas.
That's good info about the sensitivity. By the way, when I'm using my
car engine like a marine engine, i.e. constant heavy load and high
speeds for towing the trailer, I use a higher grade of gas because I
need a higher Motor Octane Number under those conditions.
Now, as for your comment about the motor method being "not really more
stringent", perhaps better to quote one who can explain it better than
I. The following is from Bruce Hamilton's Gasoline FAQ, posted
regularly on rec.autos.tech:
---BEGIN QUOTE
6.5 What does the Motor Octane rating measure?
The conditions of the Motor method represent severe, sustained high speed,
high load driving. For most hydrocarbon fuels, including those with either
lead or oxygenates, the motor octane number (MON) will be lower than the
research octane number (RON).
Test Engine conditions Motor Octane
Test Method ASTM D2700-92 [104]
Engine Cooperative Fuels Research ( CFR )
Engine RPM 900 RPM
Intake air temperature 38 C
Intake air humidity 3.56 - 7.12 g H2O / kg dry air
Intake mixture temperature 149 C
Coolant temperature 100 C
Oil Temperature 57 C
Ignition Advance - variable Varies with compression ratio
( eg 14 - 26 degrees BTDC )
Carburettor Venturi 14.3 mm
6.6 What does the Research Octane rating measure?
The Research method settings represent typical mild driving, without
consistent heavy loads on the engine.
Test Engine conditions Research Octane
Test Method ASTM D2699-92 [105]
Engine Cooperative Fuels Research ( CFR )
Engine RPM 600 RPM
Intake air temperature Varies with barometric pressure
( eg 88kPa = 19.4C, 101.6kPa = 52.2C )
Intake air humidity 3.56 - 7.12 g H2O / kg dry air
Intake mixture temperature Not specified
Coolant temperature 100 C
Oil Temperature 57 C
Ignition Advance - fixed 13 degrees BTDC
Carburettor Venturi Set according to engine altitude
( eg 0-500m=14.3mm, 500-1000m=15.1mm )
------END QUOTE
I'll agree that the conditions under which Motor and Research octane
are measured are "different", I'll also stand by my assertion that the
motor method is more "stringent". It might come down to what your
definition of stringent is.
Anders Svensson
I think, Dave, that the reason is that in some gasoline over here, the
lead has been replaced with natrium to counteract the fourstroke problem
of non hardened valve seats. Under some circumstances, the twostroke oil
and the 'unleaded' fuel can react and create problems with the
lubrication. The gasoline suppliers therefore recommend us to not mix
unleaded fuel with two stroke oil, but instead use the pure(r) lead-free
variety.
I have an OMC outboard for my dinghy and have never had any problems at
all - no matter of nasty gasoline i have fed it.
PS. When I come over next time, I will naturally buy all my gasoline and
two-stroke oil from you... Keep posting and pay no respect to whiners.
Anders
william d dickerson
R Goddard wrote:
>
> I believe that one of the main factors in determining marina gasoline
> pricing is competition. Arround Solomons Island Md, where there is a lot
> of competition, gasoline at the dock is only about 5 cents higher than the
> quick serve gas marts for 89 octane.
> --
>
> bob
> D&B Marine
> http://www.tqci.net/~dbmarine
>
>
> >
That's amazing!! Where I generally boat in TX, marina prices are about
$1.50/gal. Also, I have often been to marinas that only offer 87
octane whereas I generally put 93 octane in my boat. So I almost
always fill up while trailering.
On a related note, do marinas have to pay the road use taxes? Or
is that an area of extra margin for them?
Danny Dickerson
Dave Brown
william d dickerson wrote:
> On a related note, do marinas have to pay the road use taxes? Or
> is that an area of extra margin for them?
Speaking for Ontario, Canada, I pay the same price for my gas that the
road guys do (including the taxes). My costs and 'selling window' are
simply different. :-)
Regards,
Dave Brown
Anders Svensson wrote:
> I think, Dave, that the reason is that in some gasoline over here, the
> lead has been replaced with natrium to counteract the fourstroke problem
> of non hardened valve seats. Under some circumstances, the twostroke oil
> and the 'unleaded' fuel can react and create problems with the
> lubrication. The gasoline suppliers therefore recommend us to not mix
> unleaded fuel with two stroke oil, but instead use the pure(r) lead-free
> variety.
That's certainly interesting stuff. That natrium sounds nasty in name, I
bet it's a killer in your bloodstream. :-)
> PS. When I come over next time, I will naturally buy all my gasoline and
> two-stroke oil from you... Keep posting and pay no respect to whiners.
:-)
Dave
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>Date: Tue, Mar 24, 1998 23:23 EST
>Message-id: <6fa0s5$e2...@gazette.engr.sgi.com>
>
>
>I though that Sunoco 260 was more like 98 octane, and before
>that they had a Sunoco 280 which was like 101 or 102 octane...
>
>
>
The Sunoco refinery is in my hometown, but I don't remember a "280" grade. It
is possible tho. That refinery (Marcus Hook) played a major role in the victory
of World War II. That is where the catalytic cracking method of refining crude
was invented and developed to produce large quantities of high octane aviation
gasoline out of what would have been kerosene and fuel oil etc. This was at the
time that Germany and Japan were both running out of Gasoline and the Allies
had plenty. Amazing how a small town can have such an effect on the whole
world.
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>Date: Wed, Mar 25, 1998 04:36 EST
>Message-id: <6faj7u$mdr$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>
>
>Any discussion you have re. the price of fuel should be tempered by the fact
>that in the UK the price of a gallon of leaded petrol is about $5.30, this
>is why we run smaller boats and engines than you guys!!
>A typical days motoring in my 17ft boat with 50hp Evinrude costs me around
>$50, I hate to think what it would cost with 100+hp.
>Incidentally, we are told under no circumstances to run our engines on
>unleaded fuel, how do you get away with it?
>
>
>
On an outboard it isn't as much an issue. The lead was added to boost octane
and to lubricate the exhaust valve seats. Two cycle OBs don't have exhaust
valves so you don't have to worry about that. Also as the motor ages, the
compression drops and you don't need as high octane as it did when new.
Larry KN4IM
whard...@aol.com (WHardy1902) wrote:
>On an outboard it isn't as much an issue. The lead was added to boost octane
>and to lubricate the exhaust valve seats. Two cycle OBs don't have exhaust
>valves so you don't have to worry about that. Also as the motor ages, the
>compression drops and you don't need as high octane as it did when new.
>
>
>
>Not Harding
>It's Hardy
>As in Hardy Har Har
But, wouldn't the deposited lead, as with exhaust valve guides, aid in
lubricating and protecting rings and cylinder walls, also? I was
always under the impression deposited lead bonded to the cylinder
walls, too, not just the valve guides and seats.
Larry....Sure ran good in Grandpa's '57 Lincoln Landau with the HUGE
V-8...(c;
Dave Brown
Larry KN4IM wrote:
> But, wouldn't the deposited lead, as with exhaust valve guides, aid in
> lubricating and protecting rings and cylinder walls, also? I was
> always under the impression deposited lead bonded to the cylinder
> walls, too, not just the valve guides and seats.
The lead did not act as a lubricant, but a 'cushion' for the valve to
land on. As for deposits anywhere else in a two stroke, the less the
better. :-)
regards,
Peter Kay
The advice given over hear in all the boating magazines is that all
outboards manufactured before 1990 should always be run on leaded fuel
unless the handbook specifically said that unleaded was OK and that to use
unleaded is likely to wreck the engine. The same advice was given about
cars when unleaded first came out as the lead helped lubricate the
cylinders. Is this wrong or does your unleaded contain additives which ours
doesn't?
Thanks
Peter Kay
Dave Brown wrote in message <35190D...@sympatico.ca>...
:There is no reason your two stroke outboard needs leaded fuel. Has
:somebody been saying otherwise over there?
:
:regards,
Dave Brown
Peter Kay wrote:
> The advice given over hear in all the boating magazines is that all
> outboards manufactured before 1990 should always be run on leaded fuel
> unless the handbook specifically said that unleaded was OK and that to use
> unleaded is likely to wreck the engine. The same advice was given about
> cars when unleaded first came out as the lead helped lubricate the
> cylinders. Is this wrong or does your unleaded contain additives which ours
> doesn't?
Peter, there's a lot of misinformation out there about what lead does
and doesn't do in an engine. Would you be so kind as to copy and post
the relevent passage out of an outboard owner's manual (making clear in
your post where you reside)?
In North America, the removal of lead (an addition of other additives)
had a couple of effects. Let's start fromt the beginning:
Lead was added to fuel because to was a cost effective octane booster.
When it was discovered it was a major source of pollution, it was phased
out in the seventies and other more expensive additives replaced it.
Today, one of the more popular additives is MTBE (alcohols based fuels
such as ethanols and methanols).
Two stroke engines never needed or benefited from lead itself, only from
the resulting needed increased octane rating. Four strokes, on the other
hand, benefitted the octane and from the residual lead byproduct that
remained after combustion, as it cushioned the valves as they as slammed
down into their seats. When lead was phased out, two strokes didn't care
about the lack of lead, they simply needed a certain high octane fuel
additive that worked. Residual lead was never a 'lubricant', but a
deposit that protected the valve seat.
Now we're starting to come full circle in that fuel has been refined to
the point that there are so many additives, the two strokes are choking
on them (fuels are, after all, designed for automotive use). Now the
outboard guys have to design their way around these new fuels by
changing component materials and countering the automotive additives
with their own to reduce carbon build up. What a viscious circle indeed.
On top of that, it appears that blended fuels containing MTBE are now a
source of pollution when it wasn't so long ago they were touted as an
'evironmentally friendly' alternative. Alcohol also does strange and
wonderful things to both 2 & 4 stroke fuel supply systems as well adding
a further degree of complexity to the issue.
Does this help?
George Jefferson
:The advice given over hear in all the boating magazines is that all
:outboards manufactured before 1990 should always be run on leaded fuel
technical issues aside, you would have a very hard
time buying unleaded leaded fuel in the US after
maybe '85 or so. The manufacturers knew very well
that lead was soon going away as of the mid 70's. To say
that a motor built in 1989 might depend on lead fuel
is just silly.
--
george jefferson : geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
to reply simply press "r"
-- I hate editing addresses more than I hate the spam!
Michael J Porter
In article <3516DB...@earthlink.net>,
Jed Cavadas <jedca...@earthlink.net> wrote:
=>I will be doing much trailering this year, and thus much boating...I
=>have always used gas from Marina's...however, I would love to put the
=>same gas?? at much lower prices from the auto stations, ie Shell, etc.
=>Is their any problem with this, I know Marine fuel is supposidly leaded,
=>but does this matter, or could I simply add a lead additive...thanks for
=>the advise.
One thing to remember: most marinas sell 89 octane, not the 87
most of us put in our cars. So, I would suggest that you buy at
least 89 from the roadside pump (higher if recommended for your
motor).
From what I find locally (Nothern Chesapeake, MD), there are
marinas that want to sell lots of gas, and those that don't. Last
summer, I could pay anywhere from $1.36 or so up to $1.50 (and
beyond, I guess). Marinas that offered the 'Boat/US' discount are
a good value. For instance, Schaeffer's on the C&D pumped a lot of
gas and had a good price. Same with Jackson's on the North East.
BTW: The $1.36 was just a little bit above 89 octane prices on the
street in our area.
Mike
Myles J. Swift
The lead was important to the valve face and seat, not the cylinder
walls. If your four stroker needs a valve job, have the valves and seats
replaced with something rated for unleaded use.
Peter Kay wrote:
>
> The advice given over hear in all the boating magazines is that all
> outboards manufactured before 1990 should always be run on leaded fuel
> unless the handbook specifically said that unleaded was OK and that to use
> unleaded is likely to wreck the engine. The same advice was given about
> cars when unleaded first came out as the lead helped lubricate the
> cylinders. Is this wrong or does your unleaded contain additives which ours
> doesn't?
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter Kay
>
> Dave Brown wrote in message <35190D...@sympatico.ca>...
> :There is no reason your two stroke outboard needs leaded fuel. Has
> :somebody been saying otherwise over there?
> :
> :regards,
> :
> : Dave Brown
> : Brown's Marina
--
***********************************************************************
Myles J. Swift - Computer Assistance Inc. - Microcomputer specialists
since 1977. Makers of GarageKeeper and Motive Power software for
automotive and other mechanical repair and service businesses.
Marcus G Bell
> :The advice given over hear in all the boating magazines is that all
> :outboards manufactured before 1990 should always be run on leaded fuel
George Jefferson (geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu) wrote:
> technical issues aside, you would have a very hard time buying
> unleaded leaded fuel in the US after maybe '85 or so. The
> manufacturers knew very well that lead was soon going away as of the
> mid 70's. To say that a motor built in 1989 might depend on lead
> fuel is just silly.
I believe "over hear [sic]" was meant as "over in the UK or Europe or
something."
In Europe, leaded gas was available much longer than in the US,
perhaps still available today. Maybe European engines depended on the
lead into the late 1980s? That would make it not so silly.
While I'm on the horn here, Dave Brown mentioned that lead was a
pollutant in and of itself and hence it was removed from the gas. I
always thought we lost the lead in the US because of the addition of
the catalytic convertor, whose primary purpose in the early days was
to reduce NOx output. The cat couldn't handle the lead, as I
understood it.
Tony Thomas
There are several reasons why it costs more.
1. A marina pumps a lot less gas than a car gas station. Therefore the
amount a marina pays for gas is a lot more than a bigtime gas station.
2. Most marina's are not located as close to the fuel distributor's home as
car gas stations which means it costs the distributor more to deliver the
gas which drives up the cost. Again with relationship to how much fuel the
marina is buying.
3. A marina is not a self serve facility like the car gas station. A car
place has one person working behind the counter. A marina has 1 employee
dedicated to pumping gas on the weekends. His salery has to be amortized
over the profit in maybe a 1000 gallons of fuel.
4. If you pump a 2000 gallons a week and make 25 cents a gallon thats $500
a week. That has to pay the fuel boy's salery, the cost of the pumps, the
cost of meeting EPA rules regarding the tanks, the electricity running the
pumps, the fuel dock repairs and everything else you can think of.
5. I suggest you go into business selling gas at a marina. You will
probably be out of business the next week since you have to put in fuel
tanks and pumps and docks at a cost of about $50,000. And then you have to
pay someone to pump the gas.
6. Most marina's just try to break even on the gas as it is provided as a
service and a must for a marina to stay in business storing boats.
Robert Bethune wrote in message
<01bd5916$18533220$9868...@rbethune.dundee.net>...
>Why is it that it costs marinas more to supply gasoline than it does gas
>stations? Regulations? Taxes?
>--
>-------------------------
>Robert Bethune
>Freshwater Seas (http://www.freshwaterseas.com), serving those who sail in
>Great Lakes waters.
>Ann Arbor, MI
>"The more you know, the more you can imagine."(TM)
>
>Harry Krause <hkr...@gate-nospam.net> wrote in article
><3517AC67...@gate.net>...
>> I have no dispute with the rest of your post. It costs a marina a hell of
>a lot
>> more than a gas station to pump petro.
>
Bill McKee
I would guess 2 items. one - regulations and equipment for spills. two -
Especially for Dave Brown's Marina and those other area's where boating 6
months of the year is ice boating, you have to spread your fixed cost's for 12
months over 3-5 months. Near Kanai Lake in Alaska in about 1984, asked why a
Hamburger (was a great one though) cost $7. The owner of the restaurant said I
have 3 months a year to make 95% of my yearly gross.
Here is Calif., where boating is year round, the traffic is much less in the
Winter. I trailer my boat and fill up at the self serve station on the way
fishing, but do buy gas when I am low at marina's. Not worth the effort to
haul 40 gal's of gas in can's for the difference of $8.00 or 20 cents a gal. I
do bring extra gas when going to a lake we like near Yosemite Park, as its 35
miles to the nearest gas.
Regards, Bill
Robert Bethune wrote:
> Why is it that it costs marinas more to supply gasoline than it does gas
> stations? Regulations? Taxes?
> --
> -------------------------
> Robert Bethune
> Freshwater Seas (http://www.freshwaterseas.com), serving those who sail in
> Great Lakes waters.
> Ann Arbor, MI
> "The more you know, the more you can imagine."(TM)
>
> Harry Krause <hkr...@gate-nospam.net> wrote in article
> <3517AC67...@gate.net>...
> > I have no dispute with the rest of your post. It costs a marina a hell of
> a lot
> > more than a gas station to pump petro.
--
Opinions expressed are mine not necessarily my employers.
All other standard disclaimers apply!
Remove nospam. To email reply.
Del Cecchi
As I recall it was both factors. There was concern about the lead in
the environment as well as the fact that lead poisoned the converters.
But that was long long ago.
Del Cecchi
Vaughn
Catalytic converters were the beginning, but Detroit makes cars that can
last forever. Finally EPA outlawed most all lead for health reasons
even though older cars needed it. In Chicago, where I was at the time,
leaded gas went to a very low level. I believe it's now gone
completely.
Robert Bethune
Le...@ix.netcom.com
It is ALWAYS supply vs demand, Econ. 101
Larry KN4IM
You forgot GREED and "We know we gotcha so were gonna stick it to ya!"
Boaters are all real rich, anyways, and don't care how much they
charge....aren't they???
Wonder how much gas and goodies they'd sell if they sold it for
87c/gallon, just like the Hess station up on the corner?? Geez, I bet
every Yankee passin' through Charleston headed North would make SURE
all those big tanks were full before they left Charleston Harbor!
What a concept....
Larry
Larry KN4IM
"Tony Thomas" <tonyl...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>There are several reasons why it costs more.
>
>1. A marina pumps a lot less gas than a car gas station. Therefore the
>amount a marina pays for gas is a lot more than a bigtime gas station.
Wouldn't they sell much more volume IF we boaters all knew the price
were the same and we didn't HAVE TO stop on the way to the marina for
cheaper gas? I'd fill up at the dock, if it weren't almost DOUBLE the
price.
>
>2. Most marina's are not located as close to the fuel distributor's home as
>car gas stations which means it costs the distributor more to deliver the
>gas which drives up the cost. Again with relationship to how much fuel the
>marina is buying.
Hawgwash! The marinas around Charleston are nowhere NEAR as far as
the gas stations on I-26 60 miles out of the city! If you go up I-26
FARTHER away from the DOCKSIDE fuel depot....the price of gas goes
DOWN! Distance has nothing to do with the price of gas. Look around
your area.
>
>3. A marina is not a self serve facility like the car gas station. A car
>place has one person working behind the counter. A marina has 1 employee
>dedicated to pumping gas on the weekends. His salery has to be amortized
>over the profit in maybe a 1000 gallons of fuel.
The teenager handing me the nozzle so I can pump my OWN gas (self
service) gets paid the same minimum wage as the FOUR people standing
at the Hess station. If he only pumps 1000 gals on a weekend he needs
to look at my answer to Number 1 above. Ding!
>
>4. If you pump a 2000 gallons a week and make 25 cents a gallon thats $500
>a week. That has to pay the fuel boy's salery, the cost of the pumps, the
>cost of meeting EPA rules regarding the tanks, the electricity running the
>pumps, the fuel dock repairs and everything else you can think of.
Same as 5, see Number 1. His profits in the marina store would also
increase if WE ALL STOPPED TO BUY GAS.
>
>5. I suggest you go into business selling gas at a marina. You will
>probably be out of business the next week since you have to put in fuel
>tanks and pumps and docks at a cost of about $50,000. And then you have to
>pay someone to pump the gas.
Those old, beatup mechanical pumps musta gone way up in price! Noone
buys fuel because it's DOUBLE the price, if they can help it.
>
>6. Most marina's just try to break even on the gas as it is provided as a
>service and a must for a marina to stay in business storing boats.
>
I wonder if I sold gas for a fairer price than the marina around the
bend if that wouldn't fill up my dry stack storage bins and force me
to build more?? What a concept!
Larry....Gotta drag the boat up to Hess to fill up for the weekend...
Harry Krause
Larry KN4IM wrote:
>
> You forgot GREED and "We know we gotcha so were gonna stick it to ya!"
> Boaters are all real rich, anyways, and don't care how much they
> charge....aren't they???
>
> Wonder how much gas and goodies they'd sell if they sold it for
> 87c/gallon, just like the Hess station up on the corner?? Geez, I bet
> every Yankee passin' through Charleston headed North would make SURE
> all those big tanks were full before they left Charleston Harbor!
> What a concept....
>
> Larry
>
the subject matter.
Here's a few reasons why fuel costs more at marinas:
1. The fuel must be pumped out to the fuel docks in pipes from land-based
storage tanks that in many cases are quite a distance away from shore. The pipes
are not cheap PVC or safely buried in soil. They have to be maintained and
replaced frequently. Plus, there are all sorts of penalties if the fuel leaks
into the water.
2. The gas pumps deteriorate rapidly.
3. Many marinas will not let customers pump their own. Their insurance policies
will not allow it. Also, there is the fuel overflow/leak into the water problem
that might be caused by non-caring customers. So marinas have to have an
employee or two whose job it is to pump gas.
4. The cost of doing business as a marina is far higher than operating a gas
station. As the inheritor and then former owner of a marina, I know first-hand
the cash flow and financial problems, the constant massive repairs, the
pollution regulation laws, et cetera. And then there's the customers who don't
know how to drive their boats and crash into your docks or someone else's boat.
ALL of this is factored into the pump price.
The majority of marinas are owned and operated by families who enjoy boats and
the water and think they can make a living by offering a valuable service to
folks who spends tens of thousands of dollars on playtoys, but bitch when the
gas at their favorite marina costs more than the gas for their favorite Yugo.
On our little boat, I typically buy Chevron regular at a gas station's pump
because I haven't found a Chevron marina that is convenient. But I buy diesel
and lots of it from one of three marinas. Since our tankage is 600+ gallons, the
marinas are always glad to see us.
Peter W. Meek
On 26 Mar 1998 22:51:55 GMT, be...@mail.med.upenn.edu (Marcus G Bell) wrote:
>While I'm on the horn here, Dave Brown mentioned that lead was a
>pollutant in and of itself and hence it was removed from the gas. I
>always thought we lost the lead in the US because of the addition of
>the catalytic convertor, whose primary purpose in the early days was
>to reduce NOx output. The cat couldn't handle the lead, as I
>understood it.
Lead is definitely a pollutant. Lead in the
environment is one of the most nasty and
pernicious pollutants I can think of. It
isn't so much that it kills or makes you
sick (although it can at sufficient levels)
but that it makes kids grow up with less
intelligence than they might have. This
effect occurs at remarkably low levels.
Lead and kids just don't mix, and almost
any sacrifice of easy octane boost or
additional problems in designing engines
is worth the effort, IMO. I'd rather
see carcinogens floating around than a
couple of generations of people growing
up less well-equipped to handle their lives.
There is some speculation that the fall
of the Roman Empire may have resulted, at
least partially, because of the advent of
lead in plumbing. Just not enough intelligent
people to keep up the administrative side --
all the little jobs that keep a civilization
running efficiently.
Enough smart people might beat cancer some
day. Too many dumb ones, and there won't
be anyone with time to try. They will
all be too busy "bailing and firefighting",
trying to keep a civilized society afloat.
The industrial and scientific revolutions
coincided with the substitution of cast iron and
copper for lead in plumbing uses. We finally
have mandated non-lead solders for copper
plumbing recently. That, with getting the lead
out of gas may be the turning point for another
revolution of knowledge.
I have seen articles that suggested that the
drop in academic scores during the second
half of this century might be traced to
lead-caused lowering of intelligence, rather
than declines in teaching or school quality.
Of course these articles are generally by
academics, so there *is* some bias there.
A very difficult subject for research, since
the results don't really become evident for
25 years or so.
--
--Pete
pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
rec.boats caps at:
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/cap-main.html
lee_lindquist
In article <351BA833...@gate.net>, Harry says...
>>
>It's always impressive to read responses from posters who haven't a clue about
>the subject matter.
>
>Here's a few reasons why fuel costs more at marinas:
>
I guess I'm clueless in South Florida.
At my neighborhood (road) gas station, diesel is $1.199/gallon.
At Pier-66 in Port Everglades, it's ~$1.70/gallon. But, they
have attendants in uniform, and a nice air-conditioned building
for the cashier that's carpeted and has cable TV.
However, there are several marinas in lower-rent neighborhoods
that have diesel for $0.989 - $1.059, generally with additional
discounts for big purchases. This is cheaper than the road
diesel. I guess some of you guys are just not livin' right...
Harry Krause
I typically buy diesel at the commercial docks, where it is 84.9 a gallon. It's
a dime more at the marina docks I frequent.
--
Harry Krause
EMAIL from newsgroup? Remove -nospam from return address
- - - - - - - - - -
"He can't fight me... I'm Jesse now.."-Freddy Krueger
william d dickerson
Lee, Lindquist wrote:
>
> In article <351BA833...@gate.net>, Harry says...
> >>
> >It's always impressive to read responses from posters who haven't a clue about
> >the subject matter.
> >
> >Here's a few reasons why fuel costs more at marinas:
> >
>
> I guess I'm clueless in South Florida.
>
> At my neighborhood (road) gas station, diesel is $1.199/gallon.
> At Pier-66 in Port Everglades, it's ~$1.70/gallon. But, they
> have attendants in uniform, and a nice air-conditioned building
> for the cashier that's carpeted and has cable TV.
>
> However, there are several marinas in lower-rent neighborhoods
> that have diesel for $0.989 - $1.059, generally with additional
> discounts for big purchases. This is cheaper than the road
> diesel. I guess some of you guys are just not livin' right...
Do marinas have to pay the road tax that is added
to the cost at a service station? According the the March 2
OIL AND GAS JOURNAL, the US average price for
unleaded gas excluding taxes was 67.8 cents.
Pump price, including taxes, averaged 107.7 cents.
I believe the road tax is around 25 cents.
So if they do not pay the road tax, does that provide
extra margin for them?
Danny Dickerson
Boater and Petroleum Geologist
"burn all you want, i'll find more"
Marcus G Bell
Peter W. Meek (pwm...@mail.msen.com) wrote:
> Lead is definitely a pollutant. Lead in the environment is one of
> the most nasty and pernicious pollutants I can think of. It isn't so
> much that it kills or makes you sick (although it can at sufficient
> levels) but that it makes kids grow up with less intelligence than
> they might have. This effect occurs at remarkably low levels.
> Lead and kids just don't mix, and almost any sacrifice of easy
> octane boost or additional problems in designing engines is worth
> the effort, IMO.
You'll have agreement of many about this, but this may not be the way
lead was evolved out of our gas supply. When unleaded was introduced
here in the US, it was meant for cars equipped with catlytic
convertors, which if memory serves were most domestic vehicles built
for 1976 and thereafter. Leaded gas was available until 1989 in much
of the northeast, after which I had to bite the bullet and feed my
Beetle unleaded. They probably could have solved the "valve
lubrication" problem while eliminating lead altogether back in '76,
but didn't. Now it's gone for good and good riddance.
So, every morning I flush the toilet in my old house with copper
plumbing --which I hope is soldered together with the lead-free solder
mandated since about 1968 (if memory serves), but I can't be
absolutely sure unless I redo it all-- so that I get the lead out of
the water between the main and the bathroom. Then, I rinse a few
dishes in the kitchen sink till the water runs cold, telling me I've
got pure water coming in there. Only then do I draw water for the
morning coffee and for the orange juice my son loves. He's already
smarter than his old man, and he's only 4 this July. May his kids be
smarter than him, too.
Joe Howell
Re: the whole lead issue....
The service manual for my old engines
(1972 Mercruisers (325HP 427CID Big Block Chevy V8's))
says I MUST use leaded gas. When I bought my boat
a year and a half ago, I saw this and ran out to the local
marina, found some lead additive on their shelves (covered with
an inch of dust) and bought all they had for about
$1 a bottle (4 bottles required for a 250 gallon fillup)
I've long since used it up. Any more I find
is quite expensive.
My question to the experts in this ng,
AM I RUINING MY VALVES/SEATS? running unleaded?
Note that adding stock lead additives would run my
cost per gallon (currently about $1.35) up to over
$2. Not a very attractive alternative . Of course
neither is a valve job every 18 months or so.
What should I do?
THANKS!
--
Joe Howell, HIS COmpany 904-678-3238
PO Box 73 904-678-7378
Valparaiso ("The Valley Of Paradise"), Florida, USA 32580
Larry KN4IM
Harry Krause <hkr...@gate-nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>It's always impressive to read responses from posters who haven't a clue about
>the subject matter.
>
Speaking of someone who "hasn't a clue".....(c;
Vogt Family
George Jefferson wrote:
>
> :The advice given over hear in all the boating magazines is that all
> :outboards manufactured before 1990 should always be run on leaded fuel
>
> technical issues aside, you would have a very hard
> time buying unleaded leaded fuel in the US after
> maybe '85 or so. The manufacturers knew very well
> that lead was soon going away as of the mid 70's. To say
> that a motor built in 1989 might depend on lead fuel
> is just silly.
My good friend has an '89 Ski Nautique, powered by a Ford 302, (which
turns backwards, by the way), that has a sticker on the valve cover that
says, do not use unleaded or low lead fuels unless absolutely
necessary. I suspect he will be in for a valve job in the future, but
so far, so good...
Birken T. Vogt - KE6DLT
Curtis Wheeler
> >It's always impressive to read responses from posters who haven't a clue about
> >the subject matter.
> >Here's a few reasons why fuel costs more at marinas:
> I guess I'm clueless in South Florida.
> At my neighborhood (road) gas station, diesel is $1.199/gallon.
> At Pier-66 in Port Everglades, it's ~$1.70/gallon. But, they
> have attendants in uniform, and a nice air-conditioned building
> for the cashier that's carpeted and has cable TV.
Lets not forget competition. I will allow a marina to charge a little
more (though 70 cents is bit much) for the convenience of fueling on the
water. "Gas stations on the water" are not as plentiful and therefore
they do have some justification for charging more. If they charge as
much as they can get away with, fine.
Look at gas prices at regular service stations. What are you paying for
regular unleaded in your hometown?
Here is the Bay Area there has been quite a contraversy over gas
prices. Why is it that in LA they pay .999 a gallon for unleaded, and
we pay 1.399 for the same gas? Ask the oil companies and they will tell
you that the competition allows it. In LA there about 2.5 gas stations
for every 10,000 people. In the Bay Area there are less than 2 stations
for every 10,000. There is not as much competition here and people will
pay! Bay Are drivers will bitch a complain, but they don't curtail
tehir driving and they keep paying.
How many fuel facilities are on the waterways?
And yes - the marina's cost (per gallon) to deliver the gas to you is
higher. There are a lot of issues that make it less cost effective to
deliver gas at the dock. In addition to maintaining a facility and
selling less gas, the dealer cost for the fuel is also based on volume.
I know of service stations that pump 300,000 to 400,000 gallons a month,
and they mark up the fuel .10/gal above there cost, if that. I'll bet
Dave doesn't sell half amount that in a year.
> However, there are several marinas in lower-rent neighborhoods
> that have diesel for $0.989 - $1.059, generally with additional
> discounts for big purchases. This is cheaper than the road
> diesel. I guess some of you guys are just not livin' right...
Marine diesel is not taxed the same as diesel fo road use. Its a
substaintial difference. But before anyone with a diesel pickup truck
(or Mercedes, etc) gets any ideas - its illegal to dispense untaxed
marine diesel for use in motor vehicles.
Regards
--
Curtis
"Fast Forward"
Dave Brown
Joe Howell wrote:
> My question to the experts in this ng,
> AM I RUINING MY VALVES/SEATS? running unleaded?
If you search Dejanews, you might still find my long post on this and I
haven't got time for w re-typr so you get the short version:
An engine designed to run on leaded fuel will run for approximately 500
hours at WOT before there is a failure related to valve recession.
Most people run their boat at considerable less than WOT and don't reach
500 hours in ten years.
Therefore, the average consumer would be hard pressed to suffer any
valve damage in the short term, and, given the cost and aggravation of
adding a lead substitute (a product DESIGNED to leave a residue build
up), a consumer is much wiser to simply run the engine on unleaded until
a valve job is necessary, then have the heads rebuilt with hardened
vlave seats thus eliminating the problem forever. Furthermore, the valve
job will probably cost less that the sum total of the money spent buying
the additives, and when we consider the aggravation of measuring and
adding the supplement, the best thing to do is nothing. :-)
To date, I have yet to service an engine with valve recession due to
running unleaded fuel and don't expect to for many years yet.
I classify these additives in the 'snake oil' group. Costs something for
nothing. :-)
As an aside, that doesn't mean you can back off on your octane
requirement.
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>From: kn...@mindspring.com (Larry KN4IM)
>Date: Thu, Mar 26, 1998 08:05 EST
>Message-id: <351a51ee...@news.mindspring.com>
>
>whard...@aol.com (WHardy1902) wrote:
>
>
>>On an outboard it isn't as much an issue. The lead was added to boost octane
>>and to lubricate the exhaust valve seats. Two cycle OBs don't have exhaust
>>valves so you don't have to worry about that. Also as the motor ages, the
>>compression drops and you don't need as high octane as it did when new.
>>
>>
>>
>>Not Harding
>>It's Hardy
>>As in Hardy Har Har
>
>But, wouldn't the deposited lead, as with exhaust valve guides, aid in
>lubricating and protecting rings and cylinder walls, also? I was
>always under the impression deposited lead bonded to the cylinder
>walls, too, not just the valve guides and seats.
>
>Larry....Sure ran good in Grandpa's '57 Lincoln Landau with the HUGE
>V-8...(c;
>
Ran pretty good in my '56 Desoto w/ Hemi engine too. It just didn't run very
far. ;<)
As far as the lead on the cylinder walls, I'm sure some was deposited there but
I'm sceptical as to how much benefit if any was to be had there.
The only modification needed on pre-unleaded engines was to install special
hardened valve seats plus retard the timing to accomodate the lower octane.
Not Harding
It's Hardy
As in Hardy Har Har
WHardy1902
>Subject: Re: Marine Fuel vs. Auto Fuel
>Date: Thu, Mar 26, 1998 09:11 EST
>Message-id: <351A62...@sympatico.ca>
>
>Larry KN4IM wrote:
>
>> But, wouldn't the deposited lead, as with exhaust valve guides, aid in
>> lubricating and protecting rings and cylinder walls, also? I was
>> always under the impression deposited lead bonded to the cylinder
>> walls, too, not just the valve guides and seats.
>
>land on. As for deposits anywhere else in a two stroke, the less the
>better. :-)
>
>regards,
>
> Dave Brown
> Brown's Marina
Dave,
You call it cushion and I call it lubricant. I think we are talking about the
same concept.
How would you describe lubricant if not : An inexpensive, expendable "cushion"
separating expensive parts in motion?