A few thoughts for those...
HK
Labor is the great producer of wealth: it moves all other causes.
Congressman Daniel Webster, 4/2/1824
With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any
other organization that ever existed. They have done more for decency,
for honesty, for education, for the betterment of the race, for the
developing of character in man, than the other association of men.
Clarence Darrow, The Railroad Trainman, 1909
Without labor nothing prospers.
Popular banner
The history of America has been largely created by the deeds of its
working people and their organizations. Nor has this contribution been
confined to raising wages and bettering work conditions; it has been
fundamental to almost every effort to extend and strengthen our democracy.
William Cahn, labor authority and historian
We insist that labor is entitled to as much respect as property. But our
workers with hand and brain deserve more than respect for their labor.
They deserve practical protection in the opportunity to use their labor
at a return adequate to support them at a decent and constantly rising
standard of living, and to accumulate a margin of security against the
inevitable vicissitudes of life.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt, fireside chat, 1936
If I were a worker in a factory, the first thing I would do would be to
join a union.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt
The first thing a dictator does is abolish the free press. Next he
abolishes the right of labor to go on strike. Strikes have been labor's
weapon of progress in the century of our industrial civilization. Where
the strike has been abolished ... labor is reduced to a state of
medieval peonage, the standard of living lowered, the nation falls to
subsistence level.
George Seldes, Freedom of the Press, 1935
The right to join a union of one's choice is unquestioned today and is
sanctioned and protected by law.
President Harry S. Truman
Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of the right to
join the union of their choice.
President Dwight Eisenhower (1953-1961), general and Allied Supreme
Commander in World War II
There's s a direct relationship between the ballot box and the bread
box, and what the union fights for and wins at the bargaining table can
be taken away in the legislative halls.
Walter Reuther
In light of this fundamental structure of all work... in light of the
fact that, labor and capital are indispensable in any social system ...
it is clear that even if it is because of production in any social
system ... it is clear that even if it is because of their work needs
that people unite to secure their rights, their union remains a
constructive factor of social order and solidarity, and it is impossible
to ignore it.
Pope John Paul II
The history of the labor movements needs to be taught in every school in
this land. America is a living testimonial to what free men and women,
organized in free democratic trade unions can do to make a better life.
... We ought to be proud of it!
Vice President Hubert Horatio Humphrey, Jr. (1865-1969), Lyndon Johnson
Administration
Our labor unions are not narrow, self-seeking groups. They have raised
wages, shortened hours, and provided supplemental benefits. Through
collective bargaining and grievance procedures, they have brought
justice and democracy to the shop floor.
President John F. Kennedy, 1962
The AFL-CIO has done more good for more people than any (other) group in
America in its legislative efforts. It doesn't just try to do something
about wages and hours for its own people. No group in the country works
harder in the interests of everyone.
President Lyndon Johnson, 1965
Loogypicker
Yet you belittle, ridicule, and insult just about every person who's
ever made a living providing labor. Right here in this newsgroup
you've belittle "septic tank pumpers", ditch diggers, military
personnel, ex police officers, and on and on.
D.Duck
"HK" <payer...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
news:9IudnZpHIPBJqtfX...@earthlink.com...
Here's some reading on the "job bank" program. Granted it's an agreement
entered into by both management and labor.
Sure doesn't /didn't help the cost of cars.
Just Jim
I think I'm going to vomit.
HK
The problem with American cars hasn't been their cost, but their quality
and lately their gas mileage, and, of course, the fact that U.S.
automakers pay for the health insurance of their workers. In most other
countries, that cost is borne by all taxpayers.
HK
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:05:39 -0400, HK <payer...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>
>> ...whose lives are easier now because of the labor movement:
>
> of some Americans, it can't go unnoticed that the supporting quotes
> are at least 40 and most cases 50-100+ years old.
>
> I think, for the astute, there is a realization there to be had.....
Yeah, that today, a strong labor union movement is needed more than ever
in the face of internationalism, corporatism, the exporting of jobs, and
the elimination of hard-fought-for fringe benefits everywhere in the
country. Workers of all sorts are being reduced to the same sort of
chattel they were in the 19th century.
D.Duck
So the job bank program is a good thing?
Loogypicker
Too bad you chose to shit on your brethren and buy a Japanese made non
union vehicle, huh?
HK
You are aware that workers in many modern countries have the same sorts
of protections provided to them by their governments, just as their
governments make sure that all workers and their families have access to
health insurance/coverage.
Lu Powell
Bull! Next tine you want a job, ask for one from a union member. Don't
bother a business owner or manager.
Frogwatch
> D.Duck wrote:
> > "HK" <payer33...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
> >news:QqGdnWaoKtmi3NfX...@earthlink.com...
> >> D.Duck wrote:
> >>> "HK" <payer33...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
Replace all those union workers with machines and then we will see who
actually produces wealth. A clue, it isnt labor.
D.Duck
Yes, I am aware. Are they good programs? Do they help promote self
improvement?
HK
Poor Lu. Dumb as a post. Again.
Lu Powell
There you go. Attack the messenger, never the message. Again.
HK
I haven't studied it, but I do know of several union members who weren't
able to work at their trades and used government stipends to learn new
ones. So, in response to your question, I'd say they can promote
self-improvement.
HK
I've never had the slightest problem obtaining work from union members.
In fact, next month I'm starting up an entirely new project that I got
from union members.
D.Duck
No government "stipends" here. 95% pay for doing in a lot of cases,
essentially nothing.
HK
That was the method the automakers negotiated with the unions for the
"privilege" of massive work force reductions. It would have been smarter
to retrain the laid-off workers for other jobs, but, of course, that's
not the American way. We discard workers, and in the auto industry, the
corporations pay for the right.
Loogypicker
> >news:98udnbmr2qbs1tfX...@earthlink.com...
> >> D.Duck wrote:
> >>> "HK" <payer33...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:5o2dnfkHiNiP29fX...@earthlink.com...
> >>>> D.Duck wrote:
> >>>>> "HK" <payer33...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:QqGdnWaoKtmi3NfX...@earthlink.com...
> >>>>>> D.Duck wrote:
> >>>>>>> "HK" <payer33...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Why should the average tax payer have to pay to retrain anybody?
Should we also bear the burden of their children's college costs? What
if the wife decided to re-enter the workforce, do we pay for her new
education? When does it end?
Frogwatch
Fire em all and buy robots.
Lu Powell
That's a job from a union organization's management. Big difference. Did
they require you to show your union membership?
Calif Bill
Calif Bill
That is because you suck the union teat. Take from the working members.
And seeing your "writing" here, they are overpaying you whatever your
salary.
D.Duck
"Calif Bill" <nospam...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:SqOdnYKak4keztfX...@earthlink.com...
He won't answer.
D.Duck
What "other" jobs? I'm not disputing it wasn't negotiated. I was a lousy
plan formed by lousy union and management officials.
HK
Hehehe. Poor Lu. For the most part, "a union organization's management"
*is* comprised of union members.
HK
As if you would have a clue. You're the guy who hires illegals from the
shape-up lot.
HK
I don't have any problems with the general concept.
HK
What other jobs, indeed. This is America...the concept of "other jobs"
doesn't exist in a society that discards workers.
Vic Smith
>
>No government "stipends" here. 95% pay for doing in a lot of cases,
>essentially nothing.
>
Pretty stupid for the auto companies to sign those contracts.
I wonder how much the job banks cost them.
Never saw any figures on that.
Don't know if you know this, but computer consulting companies
had similar job banks for salaried employees when they were flying
high.
They called it "the bench."
Wasn't in a contract of course. They just wanted to retain people.
In fact, I hired onto "the bench" of one in '89, at considerably more
pay than an autoworker. CTG, downtown Chicago.
Did crosswords and had long lunches for a couple months at full pay.
Man, there was some trash on that bench.
One guy told me that when he successfully got through a client
interview and landed a contract for the company, he was going to quit
and go back to New Jersey. That's what he did. What a POS.
Another one there would refuse to do interviews with clients that were
located beyond a half hour public transit commute.
The branch manager, a guy probably too decent for the job, would
come into the "bench room" and actually appear fearful to *ask* if
these jokers would do an interview somewhere.
One day he came in and asked the short-commute broad if she would do
an interview at McDonalds Corporate in Oakbrook.
She came up with some bullshit about why she couldn't go that far.
He walked away looking defeated, going back into his office.
Unbelievable. I was sitting there thinking, "What the hell? Do I
want to really work for this company?" Of course I had bills to pay.
About ten minutes later he came back and fearfully asked me the same
thing.
It was the first time he approached me, although we had been
introduced.
Well, I wasn't happy about that commute either, but so what.
I just said "John, what am I here for?"
You wouldn't believe how his face lit up.
They never scheduled that interview, but I landed another client a bit
later.
And I was gold with John, which paid off later.
All the trash was gone after a couple years, and they dumped the
recruiter who hired them too.
But they still had a bench. Spent another 3 months there in '93 when
I came off a contract when things were slow.
Bench was always 100% pay of course. 3 months that second time.
In fact, I ended up at McDonalds after that bench time.
Later, after Y2K they eliminated the bench and just started
terminating people who came off a contract when nothing else was
immediately available. I had moved on by then after 10 years with
them, but was still in touch with employees.
The Chicago branch is gone now, but the company is still barely alive.
Think it was once the largest IT consulting firm in the country,
bigger than EDS.
Same offshoring happened in IT and engineering as happened with
manufacturing. But you know that.
I know little about the UAW job banks, but I was never comfortable on
the bench and preferred to be working. I suspect it's the same for
most people. Not all, but most.
As a taxpayer/stockholder, the UAW job banks are unacceptable.
Don't know if they are gone yet, but they should go.
Having been in unions for a dozen years and then white collar for 25,
I encountered much more trash in the white collar world.
Not enough actual productive work for many of them to stay out of
trouble. Too many lazy fucks. Wouldn't last doing timed work, even
if they could qualify in the first place.
And most don't have the work ethic of hourly workers.
Might not be rightly called "ethics" since the hourly usually doesn't
have any choice about it.
But the white collar does, and often reveals his "work ethic."
Hell, some of them are farting around on the internet using company
computers and company time.
I've been on newsgroups since '95 and never even thought about reading
or posting when at work. Call me a prick, but that's how I am.
One asshole at my last job was stupid enough to have porn
on his screen in clear sight of women walking by his desk.
Of course he was fired.
Not because he was a lazy, incompetent asshole, stealing company time,
but because he "offended" a woman.
Good enough for me.
Whatever it takes.
When I was UAW at IH I had to think about when I could schedule a
piss.
So I don't have much sympathy for white collar layabouts.
Especially the ones always whining about unions when they should be
working.
I could go on and on, blah, blah.
But it's time for a little peace and quiet. Maybe walk the dogs.
Besides, I don't want to offend anybody.
--Vic
Lu Powell
You are the one that doesn't get it. Unions have bureaucracies, just like
private and public organizations. When you say you got a contract from a
union, it wasn't awarded by a single member; instead, it was awarded by a
bureaucracy, i.e. management.
Chances are, individual members of the union you are prostituting for would
hope for a better return on their investment, aka union dues.
Why quibble further? We will never agree. Get help. Please.
HK
This is rich: *you* are explaining how unions work to me. As a matter
of fact, *almost all* the union contracts I have enjoyed in my work life
*have* been awarded by a single member of the various unions.
In fact, the *new* contract I am starting on shortly was also *awarded*
by an individual, who told my contact to "give *that* contract to Krause."
Of course, your comments on the quality of work I provide my clients are
also borne of your ignorance. You haven't a clue.
Loogypicker
> Lu Powell wrote:
>
> > "HK" <payer33...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
> >news:hNGdnZYD1bDx9tfX...@earthlink.com...
> >> Lu Powell wrote:
>
> >>>news:98udnbqr2qZL0dfX...@earthlink.com...
> >>>> Lu Powell wrote:
>
> >>>>>news:98udnb6r2qYB19fX...@earthlink.com...
> >>>>>> Lu Powell wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>news:gLGdnQ1rgd513tfX...@earthlink.com...
> >>>>>>>> Gene wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:05:39 -0400, HK <payer33...@mypacks.net>
Great, nothing like being closed minded to new and refreshing ideas
from someone else, huh? No damned wonder the unions are driving work
to other countries.
>
> Of course, your comments on the quality of work I provide my clients are
> also borne of your ignorance. You haven't a clue.- Hide quoted text -
>
Hell Harry, you do that to everyone here.
Calif Bill
Prove it, you acknowledged teller of non truth.
TopBassDog
> ...whose lives are easier now because of the labor movement:
>
> Congressman Daniel Webster, 4/2/1824
Very true, Herr Krause. Mr. Webster knew that work was a fair gain,
while deadbeats and leeches were a drain on society.
D K
> ....whose lives are easier now because of the labor movement:
>
> Labor is the great producer of wealth: it moves all other causes.
> Congressman Daniel Webster, 4/2/1824
>
>
> Vice President Hubert Horatio Humphrey, Jr. (1865-1969), Lyndon Johnson
> Administration
>
>
> Our labor unions are not narrow, self-seeking groups. They have raised
> wages, shortened hours, and provided supplemental benefits. Through
> collective bargaining and grievance procedures, they have brought
> justice and democracy to the shop floor.
> President John F. Kennedy, 1962
>
>
> The AFL-CIO has done more good for more people than any (other) group in
> America in its legislative efforts. It doesn't just try to do something
> about wages and hours for its own people. No group in the country works
> harder in the interests of everyone.
> President Lyndon Johnson, 1965
My calendar says it's 2009, WAFA.
D K
Spin control for Ullico's real estate disaster?
D.Duck
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:k2nk45trmb733l0pu...@4ax.com...
Sometimes the dogs are better company than people. Interesting stories.
D.Duck
No bidding process?
HK
Uh, no. I'm not selling "printing" or "office supplies."
Just John... for today!
wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:05:39 -0400, HK <payer...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>
>>...whose lives are easier now because of the labor movement:
>>
>>
>I have a little experience with unions.
>I was a police officer with a union that was *state wide*
>The union? SHOPO, in Hawaii. I was an officer with the Honolulu
>dep't. I handled between 8 and 10 cases a *day* both felonies and
>misdemeanors plus infractions and accidents.
>The same cop in Hana, Maui, who handled maybe two cases a month, none
>being felonies, made the exact pay I did. Why? Because when it was
>time for a new contract, Honolulu county would agree to a 12% pay
>hike. But Maui county did not have the tax base like Honolulu, so
>they could only agree to 2% pay raise. What did we get? 2% of
>course.
>Currently HPD, one of the largest police departments in the nation is
>also the lowest paid. I think they start out at around $30K a year.
>Local departments here in N. CA start out around $75K. And the cost
>of living is about 25% higher in Hawaii than in Ca.
>Fast forward to CA. I work for a transit company in San Jose. The
>union is ok, good salary, benefits, etc. But we are rewarded not on
>merit but on seniority. There are drivers that should not be drivers
>but because of seniority they retain their jobs.
>Eddie
You are providing HK way too much personal information.
--
John H
"A government policy to rob Peter to pay Paul can be assured of the support of Paul."
-- George Bernard Shaw
J i m
J i m
I like this part.
I work for a transit company in San Jose. The
>> union is ok, good salary, benefits, etc. But we are rewarded not on
>> merit but on seniority. There are drivers that should not be drivers
>> but because of seniority they retain their jobs.
Any union guilty of this practice should be shut down in the name of
public safety. Oh wait, they all do it. This is the number one reason
that unions suck. There's a whole sack full of other important reasons too.
And this part.
The same cop in Hana, Maui, who handled maybe two cases a month, none
>> being felonies, made the exact pay I did. Why? Because when it was
>> time for a new contract, Honolulu county would agree to a 12% pay
>> hike. But Maui county did not have the tax base like Honolulu, so
>> they could only agree to 2% pay raise. What did we get? 2% of
>> course.
Do you mean that, BECAUSE OF COLLECTIVE BARGAINING, Honolulu county was
penalized a 10% increase because a different county couldn't anti up? I
just can't believe this injustice to a unions own membership. And to add
insult to injury, you had to pay these thieves to represent you at the
bargaining table.
I wonder if our own resident union spokesperson Mr. Harry Krause would
care to comment. Probably not. It's doubtful that he could spin this.