New Lincoln Navigator

[Mr. Luddite]

Just been reading the various reviews on the 2018 Lincoln Navigator.

Ford pulled out all the stops and has blown the competition including
the Cadillac Escalade and Infiniti QX80 away with this one.

3.5L twin turbo, 450hp, over 500 lb ft of torque, 10 speed transmission,
6 adaptive performance settings, premier seating for all and an
interior fit and finish that is superior to any of it's competition.

Quite a price tag though. Starts at $76K. $96K typical.

Mrs.E. loves Navigators. She has had three of them in the past.
Gotta keep her away from this one.

[John H.]

Here's what Consumer Reports has to say:

The redesigned Navigator differentiates itself from its Ford Expedition sibling by piling on the
luxury touches on this almost $90,000 behemoth. This hulking SUV can accommodate up to eight people,
although it’s so large it’s probably overkill for most buyers -- unless they need to tow upwards of
four tons. While the Navigator pampers occupants with power everything and a rich interior ambience,
there are some deficiencies that detract from a great experience.

A 3.5-liter V6 turbo makes a healthy 411 horsepower on regular fuel, and it’s mated to a mostly
smooth 10-speed automatic transmission. (Lincoln says the engine makes 450 hp when premium fuel is
used.) That abundant power scooted our four-wheel-drive Navigator to 60 mph in just 6.2 seconds. Its
16 mpg overall is on par with similar large SUVs, but that's nothing to write home about.

The continuously adjustable suspension handles bumps quite well, but the handling feels floaty and
disconnected in turns. The SUV’s imposing width means drivers need to take extra care on narrow
streets or bridges, lest a side mirror get lopped off.

Passengers climbing up into this rig are helped by powered running boards that help immensely in
climbing up or descending from the Navigator’s seats, given how tall the vehicle sits. Those running
boards greet occupants automatically upon approach (or exit), then retract back into the body.

The opulent cabin is full of leather, wood, and chrome. We found the modern-looking front seats
uncomfortable. Many testers complained about the short bottom cushion, others said the seat created
painful pressure points on long journeys. The optional Perfect Position 30-way seat option adds more
adjustments and a massage feature. But at this price, we expect a perfect seat from the get-go. At
least the second-row captain’s chairs are large and accommodating, with seat heating and individual
USB ports. Even the third row is spacious enough for adults. It has convenient power-folding
operation, controlled by buttons in the cargo bay.

Beginning any trip in the Navigator requires fiddling with the electronic gear selector, an
unintuitive row of chrome buttons on the center dash. It requires the driver to make a long reach,
carefully decipher the buttons, and they’ll need the dexterity of a pianist. This unconventional
gear selector proved to be a real pain when parking. Most other controls are easy to use, including
the vivid and responsive Sync 3 infotainment system.

One reason to buy the Navigator is its impressive, four-ton tow rating. The optional heavy-duty
towing package includes a feature that simplifies backing up with a trailer, allowing the driver to
direct the vehicle with a knob while the SUV uses the automated parking ability and rearview camera
to take care of the actual steering.

Forward-collision warning and automatic emergency braking are not offered on the base trim, and they
are optional on the Reserve and Select. It is odd for these important systems are not standard on a
vehicle that starts at more than $72,000).

Driving Experience
Handling

The Navigator is clumsy through corners. It feels floaty and disconnected. Every kink or curve
requires deliberate slowing, along with plenty of steering-wheel twirling. It has pronounced body
lean, and the steering is light but vague.

The Navigator was clearly out its element around CR’s test track, invoking references to a roly-poly
toy. Its stability control kicked in aggressively and early to keep the luxury liner on its intended
course. It posted a modest 47 mph through our avoidance maneuver, but remained under control.

Powertrain

The turbo V6 engine and 10-speed automatic do a commendable job of making the Navigator feel
effortless and punchy. Even a small push on the gas pedal results in decisive forward thrust. While
the engine is rated at 450 hp on premium fuel, the manufacturer doesn’t require its use. Output
using regular fuel is 411 hp, which is the grade of fuel we used for testing. Regardless, the power
difference is of little consequence in the real world, as those horsepower numbers are measured at a
high rpm. Even on regular gas, the Navigator leapt to 60 mph in just 6.2 seconds in our testing --
an impressive number considering its size and weight.

Towing

When equipped with the heavy-duty towing package the Navigator can tow up to 8,300 pounds.

Off-road

Despite low-range gearing, the Navigator is not designed for serious off-roading because of its low
front valance, 22-inch wheels, and low-profile tires that are prone to damage.

Ride comfort

The Navigator’s body rocks back and forth noticeably at low speeds, but once past 25 mph or so the
Lincoln settles down as its automatically adjustable suspension keeps it composed. Even though it
rides on mammoth 22-inch tires, bump absorption is quite good.

Noise

The vast cabin is very quiet. There’s hardly a trace of any road or wind noise, and the turbo V6
engine sounds sedate and relaxed compared to the brawny V8 growl of the competing Cadillac Escalade.

Braking

The Navigator turned in a disappointing braking performance, with long stops under both wet and dry
conditions. The brake pedal was a bit spongy and had a lot of travel, both of which take away some
driver confidence in its stopping abilities.

Headlights

The standard LED headlights are bright and do a very good job of lighting up the road ahead.
Automatic on/off high beams are an option on top trims, which can help drivers take advantage of the
added high beam light more often since it turns them on and off for you as needed.

Inside The Cabin
Interior fit and finish

The Navigator’s cabin exudes an elegant air, with opulent leather and wood trim; chrome; a beautiful
infotainment display; and a big instrument panel in front of the driver.

A large panel of wood trim across the dashboard makes the Navigator feel special, along with
numerous padded sections. The entire door, for instance, is a combination of soft-touch, wood,
chrome, or glossy black trim. The glove box is lined with felt, as are some cubbies and the center
armrest bin. The twin center armrests have a bit of a cheap-feeling opening mechanism, though, one
of the few weak points inside the vehicle.

Controls throughout the Navigator have a nice look and feel, including the window switches, chrome
knobs, steering wheel buttons and rocker switches, and even the steering column stalks.

The front- and second-row seats are covered with supple, perforated leather, but Lincoln skipped the
perforation in the third row. The headliner is nice, but at this price point a more premium material
is expected, such as some suede or Alcantara.

Driving position

There’s plenty of room everywhere in the Navigator, including headroom, elbow room, a good left
footrest position, and even lots of right knee room for the driver. If a tall driver finds their
knee brushing against the center console, the sides are covered with padded leather. The
power-adjustable steering wheel and pedals help drivers of all sizes find the optimum position. The
high seating position allows the driver to see far out over the hood.

Visibility

Considering how enormous the Navigator is, the front and side views are actually pretty good -- even
with its thick windshield pillars, large mirrors, and bulky side pillars. Huge side windows help the
view a lot. The rear window is wide but not all that tall. The third-row headrests, when dropped,
don’t hurt visibility.

All Navigators come standard with rear parking sensors -- a welcome feature when trying to maneuver
such a big truck into a tight spot. Blind-spot warning also comes standard across the board. A handy
360-degree, bird’s-eye-view camera system comes on the second-tier Select trim and up.

Seat comfort and access

The Navigator has retracting running boards that come down as the driver approaches the vehicle,
responding to the key fob. These running boards help immensely considering the vehicle’s height. The
door openings are huge and there is plenty of room to climb in.

We found the front seats’ bottom cushion too short to give optimal thigh support and because the
front edge can’t be adjusted up or down, it can create uncomfortable pressure points for shorter
drivers. These fancy-looking seats appear to be highly adjustable but are not -- the two-way lumbar
adjustment on the standard 10-way power seat is disappointing in such an expensive vehicle, given
that some cars at half the price have four-way adjustment. Buyers have to opt for the 24-way
(standard on Reserve trim) or the 30-way seat options if they want to improve seat comfort. (Or buy
the similar, less-expensive Ford Expedition.)

Accessing the second row is much like getting in the front -- using the retractable running boards
eases the entry. Door openings are large and there is plenty of floor space. The second-row
captain’s chairs are firm and very comfortable, slide fore/aft and recline, and there’s lots of room
all around. Getting into the third row is also fairly easy -- a one-handed flip of a lever on the
second-row seat slides it up and out of the way, creating a decent pathway, even for adults. The
seat is flat and hard, but wide enough for two or three adults. Taller passengers will find knee and
footroom a little snug once the second row is put back into place, but kids should have more than
enough space.

Controls and displays

The most off-putting part about the Navigator’s controls is the unintuitive gear selector setup; it
requires deciphering before deciding which button to push. Even after becoming familiar with how it
works, it can be very frustrating, particularly during parking maneuvers that require going back and
forth between Reverse and Drive. The start button is also a reach for drivers, and its odd,
high-and-away placement often led drivers to mistake the trailer assist knob for the starter button.
A confusing layout of controls on the door caused us to occasionally fold the outside mirrors when
we were attempting to adjust them.

A tablet-like 10-inch touch screen is perched on the dash, serving as the main gateway for audio,
phone, navigation, and other features. The large screen benefits from easy-to-read text and a clear
task bar for audio, phone, and navigation. The instrument panel cluster can be customized to display
trip, fuel economy, trailer information, and phone tasks while using steering wheel shortcuts. The
optional head-up display shows speed, temperature, fuel, and adaptive cruise control and
lane-keeping information directly in front of the driver.

Audio system

The base system comes with a large, 10-inch Sync 3 touch screen and a 14-speaker audio system. It
supports Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, as well as AppLink capability. Lincoln Connect telematics
with WiFi hotspot capability is also standard. A 20-speaker audio system is available for the
Reserve and standard on the Black Label.

Navigation

Lincoln supports the popular Waze app with Apple iOS through AppLink. The standard built-in
navigation system works well. It conveniently displays key information on the home screen in
addition to the dedicated map screen. Satellite traffic service is free for five years, providing
live traffic updates and rerouting options based on current traffic conditions.

Phone

Paired phones can be controlled using steering wheel controls, with the corresponding action
displayed in the instrument cluster, momentarily minimizing other gauges to help minimize
distraction.

Connectivity

A CD player is optional. Two USB ports and a wireless charging pad come standard up front, along
with two charge-only ports for the second and third rows. Lincoln Connect telematics provides
emergency crash notification, remote lock/unlock/start via a smartphone app, and tracking of the
vehicle’s location and status.

Kid-friendly features

The optional second-row entertainment system consists of two 10-inch touch screens. Each can be
connected to a smartphone wirelessly or play media through an SD card, HDMI port, or a USB port.
Those who own a Slingbox can watch their TV channels on the go.

Climate features

As is the case with most premium-priced SUVs, the Navigator (particularly with the second-tier
Select trim and above) comes packed to the gills with standard climate features, such as a dual-zone
automatic system up front, heated steering wheel and front seats, and a full-featured rear
climate-control system with heated rear seats. Interestingly, the premium-level Ford Expedition Max
Limited costs about $11,000 less than our Navigator but came with cooled/vented front seats, which
our Lincoln lacks.

Cabin storage

Just below the center console is a series of large open trays that can handle tablets, phones, and
purses. There’s also a deep covered storage bin under the padded armrest between the seats.

Cup holders

Front passengers get two cup holders in the center console. Second-row seaters can use two cup
holders that pop out of the bottom of the center console. Those back in the third row have cup
holders built into the outboard elbow rests. All four doors have built-in bottle holders.

Cargo area

There’s an abundance of cargo- and people-hauling versatility on hand. A powered hands-free liftgate
is standard. If drivers (or passengers) have the key fob on them, a kicking motion under the center
of the rear bumper powers open the liftgate -- a big help when hands are full.

Even when all the seats are occupied there is still enough room behind the third row for a few
duffle bags, and there is a small storage area under the cargo floor. Buttons in the cargo area
power the second- and third-row seats down flat, making the Navigator a great large-item hauler. The
cargo floor is pretty high, though.

The power liftgate can be adjusted to accommodate different garage heights. The glass section of the
liftgate can open alone, which may help with hauling long items.

Spare tire

A full-size temporary spare tire is standard across all trims. The spare tire size is dissimilar to
the vehicle’s tire size, though, and therefore is only meant to be used for a short time.

Safety & Driver Assist Systems
Crash-test results

Neither NHTSA nor the IIHS have crashed tested the Navigator.

Crash-avoidance systems

Blind-spot warning with rear cross-traffic warning is standard across all trims. An optional package
is required to get forward-collision warning, automatic emergency braking, and lane-keeping assist.

Forward-collision warning and automatic emergency braking with pedestrian detection -- These systems
help reduce the likelihood and severity of frontal crashes and are active above 3 mph, with the
ability to detect pedestrians up to 50 mph. The system has three levels At the first sign of a
collision it alerts the driver with visual and audible warnings. Next, it pre-charges the brakes. If
no action is taken by the driver, the final step is automatic emergency braking.

Blind-spot warning -- This system alerts the driver to vehicles in an adjacent lane that may be
difficult to see. A yellow dot in the outside mirror lights up if a car is detected alongside. The
dot will start flashing if attempting to merge into an adjacent lane and a vehicle is detected.

Rear-cross traffic warning -- When in Reverse, it will sound an audible alert along with a message
in front of the driver indicating whether the vehicle is approaching from the right or left of the
rear of the vehicle.

Lane-keeping assist -- The system works above 40 mph and can be set up as an alert, a lane-keeping
aid, or both. The alert comes as a steering vibration as the vehicle leaves its lane. The aid
setting will apply slight steering correction to keep the vehicle in its current lane.

Child safety

Wide belt anchor spacing makes some car seat installations extremely challenging to get a secure
fit. Lower LATCH anchors in the second-row captain’s chairs are hidden behind stiff cushions, making
them more difficult to access than in the third row, where the anchors are more exposed. Rear-facing
infant seats can fit in the third row if the second row is locked in its forward or mid-track
positions. Rear head restraints in the second row may need to be removed for boosters to sit flush
against the seatback.

Warranty
All cars come with basic warranty coverage, also known as a bumper-to-bumper warranty. This protects
consumers against unexpected problems with non-wear items. Powertrain warranty protects against
engine and transmission troubles. Rust through, or corrosion warranty, covers rust to non-damaged
components. Roadside aid provides on-location assistance in case of a breakdown and may include
limited towing services.

Extended warranties provide peace of mind. Owners of models known to have worse-than-average
predicted reliability can mitigate risks with an extended warranty. Generally, we recommend buying a
model with better-than-average reliability and skipping this expensive add on. If you do buy an
extended warranty, it is key to read the small print to understand what is covered and where you can
bring the car for repairs.

Basic (years/miles) 4/50,000
Powertrain (years/miles) 6/70,000
Rust through (years/miles) 5/unlimited
Roadside aid (years/miles) 6/70,000

[Tim]

Wow John. Look at the length of that cut n paste? You trying to out do Harry? Lol!!

[Keyser Soze]

Heheh...what does that barge weigh, three tons?, and with a 3.5 liter
engine, the same size as in my little truck and a Toyota with V6? With
twin turbos? Not an engine that is going to last long, pushing an
aircraft carrier.

[Keyser Soze]

On 3/31/18 9:47 AM, Tim wrote:
> Wow John. Look at the length of that cut n paste? You trying to out do Harry? Lol!!
>

It's the "lol" guy...d'uh.

[Tim]

8:50 AMKeyser Soze
- show quoted text -

Heheh...what does that barge weigh, three tons?, and with a 3.5 liter
engine, the same size as in my little truck and a Toyota with V6? With
twin turbos? Not an engine that is going to last long, pushing an
aircraft carrier.

,,,
It's the "d’uh" guy...lol.

[Its Me]

Oh, look... it's the jingle writer that thinks he's a mechanical engineer.

[John H.]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 06:47:13 -0700 (PDT), Tim <tsch...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Wow John. Look at the length of that cut n paste? You trying to out do Harry? Lol!!

I just hope I didn't offend anyone with all the political horseshit therein!

[justan]

"Mr. Luddite" <nowa...@nowhere.net> Wrote in message:

Until she can see out the back of one.
--
x


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[justan]

Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com> Wrote in message:

> On 3/31/18 9:47 AM, Tim wrote:
>> Wow John. Look at the length of that cut n paste? You trying to out do Harry? Lol!!
>>
>
>
> It's the "lol" guy...d'uh.
>

It's the d'uh guy... snerk

[Mr. Luddite]

There's a bit of a difference between Harry's Tacoma 3.5L V6 and the
Navigator's 3.5L V6. The most important is torque. Harry has about 260
lb ft. The Navigator has over 500. That's as much and in some cases
*more* torque than many of the six cylinder diesels used in some pickups.

[Mr. Luddite]

She only worries about what's in front of her and often doesn't take
that too seriously.

[Keyser Soze]

Base curb weight, 5,926 pounds. I guessed three tons. Damned close. The
"L" model is more than three tons. Crikey. It weighs more than a new
Rolls-Royce, which has a Twin Turbo Premium Unleaded V-12 engine with
twice the displacement. The Rolls puts out 624 bhp.

[justan]

Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com> Wrote in message:

Why would someone who can't afford one be concerned about the
weight and engine longevity.

[Keyser Soze]

Coming out of a small displacement engine for a vehicle that weighs
three tons. I'm surprised Lincoln didn't go with four turbos. :)

[Tim]

Keyser Soze
- show quoted text -

Base curb weight, 5,926 pounds. I guessed three tons. Damned close. The
"L" model is more than three tons. Crikey. It weighs more than a new
Rolls-Royce, which has a Twin Turbo Premium Unleaded V-12 engine with
twice the displacement. The Rolls puts out 624 bhp.

...

Put things in perspective Harry. The best Lincoln costs less than a 3rd of the cheapest Of today’s Rolls offerings.

https://www.caranddriver.com/rolls-royce

[Mr. Luddite]

Only found one model with that hp rating ... the Rolls-Royce Wraith.
Pricing *starts* at $312K.

[Mr. Luddite]

10 speed transmission helps a lot.

[justan]

"Mr. Luddite" <nowa...@nowhere.net> Wrote in message:

Harry still thinks " if its good enough for Harry it should be
good enough for everyone." ??

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:50:35 -0400, Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com>
wrote:

It does 0-60 in a little over 6 seconds. That doesn't seem to be
underpowered. I doubt Mrs E will keep it long enough to wear out the
engine.

[John H.]

Had you already seen the CR review?

[Mr. Luddite]

I read the one you posted. The ones I read were from Car and Driver,
Motor Trend, Edmunds, etc. They had very little bad to say about it.
In fact, they really think Ford out did themselves on the 2018 model.

Got a kick out of the Car and Driver review. They tried to get a
2018 Cadillac Escalade to do a comparison test with the new Navigator.

When Cadillac found out what the comparison test would be between they
refused to provide an Escalade for the tests.

[True North]

I wouldn't buy the first year of a vehicle model do over.

[John H.]

Cadillacs are not well thought of by CR.

[John H.]

On 31 Mar 2018 17:52:42 GMT, Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com> wrote:

>I wasn’t questioning the horsepower output, but the wisdom of powering a
>three ton car with a small engine.


Guess what, Krause - you're not qualified to question the wisdom.

[justan]

Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com> Wrote in message:

> Why would I want a whale of a car?
>
> --
> Posted with my iPad Pro
>

Nobody asked you if you want one.

[John H.]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:57:52 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

>On 31 Mar 2018 17:52:42 GMT, Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com> wrote:
>
>><gfre...@aol.com> wrote:

>>I wasn’t questioning the horsepower output, but the wisdom of powering a
>>three ton car with a small engine.
>

>Now you sound like those 60s-70s guys who said big block V-8s were the
>only way to go.
>If this thing performs well and lasts as long as he plans on keeping
>it, why not.
>My FIL went from a Northstar V-8 to a 2 liter turbo in his "always
>red" CT<sumpin> Cadillac and he says he barely noticed the difference

Have you ever witnessed Harry *not* put down something someone else was buying?

[Keyser Soze]

On 3/31/18 3:57 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On 31 Mar 2018 17:52:42 GMT, Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com> wrote:
>
>> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:

>> I wasn’t questioning the horsepower output, but the wisdom of powering a
>> three ton car with a small engine.
>
> Now you sound like those 60s-70s guys who said big block V-8s were the
> only way to go.
> If this thing performs well and lasts as long as he plans on keeping
> it, why not.
> My FIL went from a Northstar V-8 to a 2 liter turbo in his "always
> red" CT<sumpin> Cadillac and he says he barely noticed the difference
>

Yeah, I still believe if you have a big, heavy, car or truck, you want a
substantially sized engine in it. I was at first reluctant to buy a new
Toyota Tacoma because it only had a 3.5 liter engine, but it is a
relatively lightweight truck and I didn't plan on towing anything
heavier than a lawn/garden trailer, and that only occasionally. The six
speed manual tranny truck is certainly peppy enough, but I drive with a
light foot and to the best of my recollection, I've had the engine up
past 3000 rpms only once. Typically, I'm driving at around 2000 rpms for
60 - 65 mph. The state road limit around here is 50-55...and the county
mounties ain't reluctant to ticket you if you are more than 5 mph over
the posted limit.

[Mr. Luddite]

On 3/31/2018 1:52 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:

> Why would I want a whale of a car?
>

I don't. Mrs.E. is the one who likes them.

[Keyser Soze]

Even with the visual aids, it must be a bitch to park that aircraft
carrier. I watched a video review of it, though...has a really nice
interior. It would be a nice car for a long trip on the Interstate...but
I really despise those sorts of long drives. Hell, five to five and a
half hours to New Haven or nine and a half hours to Hilton Head is the
limit of my tolerance for that sort of driving.

[Mr. Luddite]

On 3/31/2018 1:52 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:

> I wasn’t questioning the horsepower output, but the wisdom of powering a
> three ton car with a small engine.
>

I don't know enough about cars to comment intelligently however I don't
think today's engines suffer from the "worn out" issues of those of the
past. Geared properly (10 speed transmission) I don't think the
Navigator V6 is working much harder than the V6 in my Canyon that has an
eight speed transmission or the V6 in your Tacoma. The twin turbo makes
it more complex for sure but modern turbos have a decent reputation for
longevity. Lots of cars and trucks have them.

In the old days the main reason an engine "wore out" (except for a
catastrophic failure) was due to worn rings, cylinders and valves.
Their condition was manifested by burning oil, leaving blue clouds of
smoke and running rough with a cylinder or two missing due to lack of
compression. You don't see that much anymore due to advances in
material sciences and hard coatings on the cylinder walls, rings and
valves. Lots of cars and trucks are used daily now-a-days with 150K to
200K miles on them and they don't burn any oil.

[waynebatr...@hotmail.com]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 17:39:12 -0400, Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com>
wrote:

===

You should be able to make New Haven in 3 or 4 days with that
imaginary twin diesel yacht of yours. There's nothing quite like that
entrance into New York harbor as you go north on the Jersey coast.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Keyser Soze]

You probably are right. Pretty soon we'll be seeing one liter engines
zipping "funny cars" down the dragstrip!

[waynebatr...@hotmail.com]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:05:06 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
<nowa...@nowhere.net> wrote:

>
>Just been reading the various reviews on the 2018 Lincoln Navigator.
>
>Ford pulled out all the stops and has blown the competition including
>the Cadillac Escalade and Infiniti QX80 away with this one.
>
>3.5L twin turbo, 450hp, over 500 lb ft of torque, 10 speed transmission,
> 6 adaptive performance settings, premier seating for all and an
>interior fit and finish that is superior to any of it's competition.
>
>Quite a price tag though. Starts at $76K. $96K typical.
>
>Mrs.E. loves Navigators. She has had three of them in the past.
>Gotta keep her away from this one.
>
>

===

They must be really boosting the heck out of that thing with the
turbos to get that kind of power and torque from a 210 cubic inch
engine. I wouldn't want to be towing up a lot of hills with it but I
suppose most people will not use it that way. It will be interesting
to see if head gasket failures start showing up as a weak link in the
reliability reports. My wife's E320 has a slightly smaller V6 turbo
diesel which is rated at much less horsepower but 400 ft-lbs of
torque. It really launches when the turbo kicks in.

[Mr. Luddite]

I think your thinking is obsolete. Most of the newer vehicles today
have a V-6 (even pickup trucks) with many transmission gears instead of
the old 3 or 4 with maybe an overdrive. The old adage of "there's no
replacement for displacement" has been retired.

Another factor comparing the old 60's, 70's era V8 to modern engines.
A big block V8 in the 60's was designed and geared to produce the most
HP and torque fairly low on the RPM curve. Modern engines are designed
to produce max HP and torque much higher. There's a benefit to that in
that it doesn't "lug" under a heavy load.

My Canyon is rated at 308 HP but it's at 6,800 RPM. Max torque is 275
lb ft at 4,000 RPM. I think the engine in the '67 GTO I had would fly
apart at 6,800 RPM unless it was specially rebuilt for racing or something.

Another feature in modern engines is variable valve timing that
optimizes engine performance for it's load.

[John H.]

I suppose he's got a boom derrick to hoist his Ducati aboard.

[Alex]

Keyser Soze wrote:
> On 3/31/18 9:05 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
>>
>> Just been reading the various reviews on the 2018 Lincoln Navigator.
>>
>> Ford pulled out all the stops and has blown the competition including
>> the Cadillac Escalade and Infiniti QX80 away with this one.
>>
>> 3.5L twin turbo, 450hp, over 500 lb ft of torque, 10 speed
>> transmission, 6 adaptive performance settings, premier seating for
>> all and an interior fit and finish that is superior to any of it's
>> competition.
>>
>> Quite a price tag though. Starts at $76K. $96K typical.
>>
>> Mrs.E. loves Navigators. She has had three of them in the past.
>> Gotta keep her away from this one.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Heheh...what does that barge weigh, three tons?, and with a 3.5 liter
> engine, the same size as in my little truck and a Toyota with V6? With
> twin turbos? Not an engine that is going to last long, pushing an
> aircraft carrier.

The auto industry has come a long way. Look at all of the 4cyl 2 liter
turbos moving large cars now. Years ago a turbo was an expense waiting
to happen. Now they are very common and built well.

[Alex]

What's your point?

[Alex]

Keyser Soze wrote:
> justan <m...@here.com> wrote:

> Why would I want a whale of a car?
>

Who asked? If you aren't in the market for one, why comment at all?
You really have to work on that narcissism, Krause.

[Alex]

Rarely, unless it's his dumb friend Donnie. He got a pass for buying a
Bayliner from Krause.

[Alex]

Indy cars have 2.2L engines pushing 600+ HP.

[waynebatr...@hotmail.com]

===

Are they turbo charged or supercharged?

[gfre...@aol.com]

My 97 Honda Prelude says it has 101k or so on it but I know the speedo
was tricked up so I am betting 160-170. I missed one 10,000 bump
because the ice pick job screwed up the pawl that flips it over. Then
it started working. (I may have missed two)
This thing has been run hard the whole time, It cruises at close to
4000 PM on the interstate and I wind it up pretty tight going through
the gears (6k+) if I am getting out into moving traffic.
It still does not burn any oil. I am horrible about oil changes (one
every year or 2) and I still never have to add any.
This thing may actually be old enough to drink if it was an early
model year car.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 17:54:49 -0400, Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com>
wrote:

>You probably are right. Pretty soon we'll be seeing one liter engines
>zipping "funny cars" down the dragstrip!

They are getting a 3 ton truck up to 60 in 6 seconds with a 213 Cu/In
engine. In the 80s that would have taken a high performance 350 or
400. It would have been a 427 in the 60s.
Engines have come a long way.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:05:16 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
<nowa...@nowhere.net> wrote:


>
>I think your thinking is obsolete. Most of the newer vehicles today
>have a V-6 (even pickup trucks) with many transmission gears instead of
>the old 3 or 4 with maybe an overdrive. The old adage of "there's no
>replacement for displacement" has been retired.
>
>Another factor comparing the old 60's, 70's era V8 to modern engines.
>A big block V8 in the 60's was designed and geared to produce the most
>HP and torque fairly low on the RPM curve. Modern engines are designed
>to produce max HP and torque much higher. There's a benefit to that in
>that it doesn't "lug" under a heavy load.
>
>My Canyon is rated at 308 HP but it's at 6,800 RPM. Max torque is 275
>lb ft at 4,000 RPM. I think the engine in the '67 GTO I had would fly
>apart at 6,800 RPM unless it was specially rebuilt for racing or something.
>
>Another feature in modern engines is variable valve timing that
>optimizes engine performance for it's load.
>

That valve timing trick in my Prelude really makes a difference. It
kicks in at 5k RPM and it is like the secondaries opening on the old
Quadrajet carb.
I agree the RPMs on these engines are nothing like the 60s.
My 327 350HP in my 76 Chevelle (called 325) was redlined at around
6000 RPM and at that speed the valves floated, it started burping and
you slowed back down. With the 456 rear end, that was about 105 MPH
but you could get it in around a quarter mile. (the point)
It was another car that ran at 4000+ RPM on the beltway but it came
apart in 43,000 miles. Mr Goodwrench fixed it on warranty.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 20:50:46 -0400, Alex <Xel...@gmail.com> wrote:

They only have to go 500 miles tho ;-)

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sun, 01 Apr 2018 00:27:58 -0400, waynebatr...@hotmail.com
wrote:

>Are they turbo charged or supercharged?

Twin BorgWarner 6758 turbochargers

[Keyser Soze]

Apparently so, but somehow it reminds me of the guys who used to tell me
that those little Bose speakers put out the same quality of sound as
theater-sized klipschorns or wharfedales or other large, horn-loaded
speakers, or that "surround sound" is "more real" than what you hear at
an acoustically correct concert hall with proper miking. I never
believed that...taste, after all, is subjective. I have a CD of Mischa
Maisky playing Bach cello suites I play frequently, and I've seen him
perform in a small concert hall. I used to lug a copy of that CD around
to audio stores when I was thinking of getting different speakers. The
CD sounded like shit to me on new technology small speakers...the cello
sounded like a viola, which is tuned an octave higher.

[justan]

Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com> Wrote in message:

> On 4/1/18 12:51 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 17:54:49 -0400, Keyser Soze <no...@jose.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You probably are right. Pretty soon we'll be seeing one liter engines
>>> zipping "funny cars" down the dragstrip!
>>
>> They are getting a 3 ton truck up to 60 in 6 seconds with a 213 Cu/In
>> engine. In the 80s that would have taken a high performance 350 or
>> 400. It would have been a 427 in the 60s.
>> Engines have come a long way.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Apparently so, but somehow it reminds me of the guys who used to tell me
> that those lit

Off topic and boring

[gfre...@aol.com]

The difference you can actually measure the performance of these new
HO gauge engines. It is not like just trying to describe what
something sounds like to you.
I agree the "Bose sound" is not necessary correct sound but Bose fans
swear by it. I still have 2 big Sansui speakers in the tiki bar and I
think they sound better than the Bose my wife has in the new room but
she likes the Bose sound more than the thumping base from those old
"leisure suit days" speakers.

[Mr. Luddite]

Your ears and your expectation of what "good" music reproduction sounds
like is very subjective. Your brain is an excellent equalizer so if you
listen to music often on poorly performing speakers it can start to
sound ok. Your brain replaces what is missing. You just can't do an
instant "A", "B" test because you'll immediately notice the difference.

Surround sound sucks usually because people over-do the rear
"reflectance" sounds in terms of amplitude. Set up properly you
shouldn't even notice that there are read or side speakers at all.

Surround is really for movies anyway where it is specifically recorded
to use the side and rear speakers as origin points, like a helicopter
circling over your head or something.

[Mr. Luddite]

I once had a complete 4 channel, "Quadraphonic" Sansui system with four
large speakers, two Sansui stereo amps, a Sansui 4 channel
processor/decoder and a Teac 4 channel tape deck. Quadraphonic was the
fore-runner to surround sound but was plagued by different recording
standards and lack of pre-recorded material. Enoch Light released a few
tapes and 4 channel encoded vinyls back in the 70's.

[Mr. Luddite]

On 4/1/2018 12:22 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

I have a pair of 80's vintage Bose 901's and the Bose Equalizer that
goes with them. I don't use them anymore but they are still in great
shape (speaker surrounds are not rotted, etc.) Properly set up they
still sound very good, especially if you add a subwoofer at very low volume.

[Bill]

Just like a top fuel dragster only has to turn about 1000 revolutions
between rebuilds. Each quarter mile.

[John H.]

That's really pertinent in a discussion of engine performance.

Anything to toot your tooter though, eh Haareee.

[John H.]

Hooked up to my computer, the Bose Lifestyle system makes great sound!

[gfre...@aol.com]

I agree. I don't really notice the surround on our 5.1 systems until
we play a movie that uses all of it. I suppose they could record music
in 5.1 but there is not a lot of it around.

[Mr. Luddite]

Some music and even symphony orchestras are recorded in surround but the
intent of trying to create a true hall effect is hard to do plus most
people set the surround levels too high in order to "hear" them. Doing
so destroys the subtle reflection of sound that was intended.

Six channel "Super CD" recordings are very high in dynamic range and
fidelity because the recording technique is totally different than
regular CD's but again, the extra channels don't always add to the
authenticity of the performance in a large venue or hall.

[Keyser Soze]

We're going to see The Barber of Seville at the KenCen later this month,
featuring, among others, the Moldavan baritone, Andrey Zhilikhovsky.
Hopefully, no one will mess with the sound and make it sound like
someone's multi-channel surround stereo. :)

The baritone is rising rapidly among the great singers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWyqaomjpdE

...especially since the sad and untimely death from brain cancer of
Dmitri Hvorostovsky.

[John H.]

Yeah, that was a real shame.

[Mr. Luddite]

I guess that appeals to many people (which I can understand) but I am
not high brow enough to appreciate it much.

[John H.]

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

[Tim]

1:31 PMMr. Luddite
- show quoted text -

I guess that appeals to many people (which I can understand) but I am
not high brow enough to appreciate it much.

....

I’m not high brow much but I can appreciate a bunch of it. Way more than my wife can stand.

[John H.]

But you don't try to impress people by throwing names around!

[Keyser Soze]

The Barber of Seville and Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro were the
musical theater of their times, and those comic operas and others had
great appeal to the masses, even those with no formal education. The
same was true of Gilbert & Sullivan's operettas.

Incidently, both the Rossini work and Mozart's were based on works by
the same playwright and the main protagonists are as a result named
Figaro.

You might like these version of Figaro's Barber of Seville aria...with a
translation.

My taste for enjoying opera is limited. I like a lot of the comic operas
for their great music and really silly plots. Many of the "tragic"
operas put me to sleep. :)

[Alex]

"The current, fourth-generation *IndyCar* formula was presented in 2012.
The *engines* are now 2.2-liter twin turbo V-6's putting out estimated
550–750 hp depending on the level of boost used. They are limited to
12,000 rpm. *Engines* are currently supplied by Chevrolet and Honda."

[Alex]

My SUV has 269 ci (4.4L) and will run 0-60 in 4.7 seconds with twin
turbos. It's just under 5100 lbs. Amazing power for a heavy vehicle.

[Alex]

True.

[Mr. Luddite]

Well, enjoy your evening. I just don't have any appreciation for opera
in general but I certainly don't fault those who do. If there's a story
being told I'd rather just read it.

The most "high brow" I get is a few visit to Symphony Hall in Boston
once in a great while and to be honest, I am more awed by the
unbelievable acoustics there. Blows me away. We both (meaning Mrs.E.
and I) enjoy the Boston Pops and try to see them every year or so. It's
usually a fun take and we are friends with someone who performs with the
Pops.

[Mr. Luddite]

I knew someone in Florida who had a Porsche 911 turbo that he installed
a variable boost control on it. Crazy fast but I'll bet it wouldn't
last long if he kept the boost setting too high, too often.

[Mr. Luddite]

I think we'll probably see more and more turbos as stock items and
engines will continue to get smaller in displacement. They have become
very reliable and a turbo with modest boost yields a lot of HP for cheap
money while increasing MPG overall.

Nice thing about a turbo is that if you don't "get on it" all the time,
you really aren't stressing the engine much.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Some of the boys down in Everglades are running nitrous systems on
their air boats. If they "hit the button" a lot it does scrub expected
hours off the engine but it will pop them off a hump they get stuck
on. With the price of nitrous, it is a pretty expensive hobby. That
stuff was 3 or 4 bucks a pound 20 years ago. (with an account.)

[Bill]

Most of the operas and operettas were the soap operas of the time.
Nothing highbrow about a big bunch of them. Especially Gilbert and
Sullivan.

[Mr. Luddite]

My wife's uncle (used to teach diesel mechanics in a Jr. College) has a
early 70's Monte Carlo that he has been "building up" over several
years. 350 ci small block puts out 560 HP as tested on the dynamometer
running gas. But, he also installed a nitrous oxide tank in the trunk
with lines, remotely actuated valves and a switch in the car.

He took me for a ride in the thing which was impressive just running on
gas and then hit the nitro switch. Holy Crap!

[John H.]

My mom was a huge fan of the Boston Pops. We boys grew up listening to their records. Never been
there, but they provided a lot of enjoyment. Of course, this was back when Arthur Fiedler was
conducting. Probably way, way too low-brow for Harry.

[Mr. Luddite]

We have a friend, Amanda Carr, who we met when I had the guitar shop.
She is also a realtor and handled the sale of our house two years ago.

She performed a couple of times at the shop in concerts I arranged.
She also performs occasionally with the both the Boston Pops and the
full Boston Symphony Orchestra. Through her we also met the guy and
became friends with who plays guitar for both the Pops and the full
orchestra. He came to our house and played for over an hour at one
of the open houses when we had the house on the market.

We get together once and a while when she's not busy entertaining. I
arranged for her to perform at an elderly day care facility that I drove
for for a year. She's the salt of the earth, has nothing bad to say
about anyone and will do anything she can to help people.

Here's a video of her with the Pops on New Year's eve in 2017 and
another with a few members of the Pops at a less formal performance
singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow".

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeDxUE6iVUw>

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCjZw5wnW24>

[Keyser Söze]

Oh, that’s nothing. I had a ‘49 Jeep station wagon when I was 17 that once
got up to 41 mph going down Fountain Street from under the Parkway bridge
at the Woodbridge line to the light at the bottom of that long steep hill.
Fortunately the light was green because the brakes on that big double
shoebox sucked, too. :) it had a four cylinder engine of about 60 hp. Or
less. Lots of air drag.

--
Posted with my iPhone 8+.

[gfre...@aol.com]

The physics of nitrous is pretty interesting. First it is injected as
a liquid so it has a significant cooling effect on the air coming in
and concentrates that charge. They are also introducing more fuel so
the charge starts off very rich as it goes over TDC and you have a
smoky fire going on in there. When the temperature gets up around 500f
(something like that) the nitrous comes apart releasing pure O2 into
that smoky fire, right in the power stroke where you want a big bang.
Some proponents even say this is not really that bad for the engine
but they don't seem to last as long. It may be because those guys are
really beating the hell out of them anyway.