Bayliner 2452 in rough water
Ken
for value in this type of boat, by a huge margin at that.
Can anyone who has one please report as to how it performs into strong
winds and rough seas? I am talking small craft advisory, 20-30 knot
winds, 3 foot seas with whitecaps -- conditions frequently encountered
inshore around here.
In particular, I would like to know if you can lower your trim tabs
and move the boat straight into the seas at, say, 12-15 knots without
extreme banging -- like a serious semi-displacement boat can do.
Ken
Harry Krause
If you don't mind burying the bow, talking on a lot of splash, not having
as much directional control as you'd like and beating the daylights out of
your boat, it'll be great fun for a while. Hell, if there is a real a
trough hidden among those *real* 3' breakers, you could even take on a
greenie right over the cabin. Now, that would be an event that might spoil
your whole day.
Whatever boat you are considering, Ken, if the conditions you mentioned
are common, you ought to try a lot of different boats to help you decide
which might be best.
Leaving aside the fact that you're talking about a Bayliner, you might
consider the fact that, much else being equal, a straight inboard will
ride better than that I/O because its engine weight is more forward, where
it can help the boat power through the wavetops. There aren't a whole lot
of 24' inboards around, but they are out there.
Of course, if the conditions you describe are only occasional...well...why
get overly concerned?
Just slow down and keep the bow up enough so it doesn't get buried.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
"You are the Assessor. You have the power to Tax."
Bryon Kass
have been blown all over in windy conditions. The best wind is
a tail wind as it will blow you in the direction of travel. The
boats do pound and with the light weight will not handle well
at slow speeds in cross winds. They are difficult at best to dock
or approach a mooring in anything above a 15kt breeze. If you want
a good sea boat it is not a Bayliner. I believe it is the IO placed
in the stern that does it in this brand and probably other brands
of boats. I found that to approach a point in the water the only
way to control it is to back into the wind. Water test on in close
to the conditions you will be boating before taking the plunge!
Bryon Kass
webmaster and
Custom Design
150 Mechanic St.
Foxboro, MA 02035
508-543-9068 or fax 508-543-5127, Foot yard 508-384-2415
in THE ENGINE ROOM http://home.ici.net/~cusdn
Ray Dobmeier
>winds and rough seas? I am talking small craft advisory, 20-30 knot
>winds, 3 foot seas with whitecaps -- conditions frequently encountered
>inshore around here.
Trailer Boats Magazine used this boat as their project boat for about a
year. They took it from the Pacific Ocean to Florida and many points in
between.
Get some of their back issues and I'm sure all of your questions would be
answered.
SEAPUPPIE
>Can anyone who has one please report as to how it performs into strong
>winds and rough seas? I am
Ken I own a 2452 Bayliner. I take her out Port Canaveral on the coast of
Florida.
The 2452 rides very high bow up with the trim tabs in and approx. 2500 rpm.
This is about 10-12 kts.
According to my NOA radio I have had the boat out in 4-5 ft. seas. It was not
fun, I got sick,and I was scared. Water came over the bow. She did not break
apart, sink, or become unrulie. I was able to get her home from about 10 miles
out.
I do not have any rough water exprience and feel that if I wasn't learning on
the spot ( or sick ) I would have done better.
I must say under those conditions the learning curve moves right along.
I followed this boat in Trailer Boats Mag. for 2 yrs. Before I purchased. It
is not the Bayliner of old. It is not a Hatteras, Viking, Tiara, or even a Sea
Ray. It is a decent boat for a 23ft. (her reg. length is 23.5ft ). The setup
and of course price are very nice.
I love mine and from other people in this group they love theirs.
Can you buy a better boat ! Of course. Can you buy a worst ? Of course.
Good Luck,
John
Harry Krause
> >Can anyone who has one please report as to how it performs into strong
> >winds and rough seas? I am
>
> Ken I own a 2452 Bayliner. I take her out Port Canaveral on the coast of
> Florida.
> The 2452 rides very high bow up with the trim tabs in and approx. 2500 rpm.
> This is about 10-12 kts.
> According to my NOA radio I have had the boat out in 4-5 ft. seas. It was not
> fun, I got sick,and I was scared. Water came over the bow. She did not break
> apart, sink, or become unrulie. I was able to get her home from about 10 miles
> out.
You're right on the money.
Gary S. Colecchio
>between.
On a trailer of course....
Sorry, coundn't resist.
Capt. Gary S. Colecchio
West Palm Beach, Florida
"Lie ? Me ? Never! No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" - Captain Hook
hidda
SEAPUPPIE wrote in message <19981106101839...@ng105.aol.com>...
on
>the spot ( or sick ) I would have done better.
>I must say under those conditions the learning curve moves right along.
>I followed this boat in Trailer Boats Mag. for 2 yrs. Before I purchased.
It
>is not the Bayliner of old. It is not a Hatteras, Viking, Tiara, or even a
Sea
>Ray. It is a decent boat for a 23ft. (her reg. length is 23.5ft ). The
setup
>and of course price are very nice.
>I love mine and from other people in this group they love theirs.
>Can you buy a better boat ! Of course. Can you buy a worst ? Of course.
>Good Luck,
> John
>
Good post, John. Next time, take somebody who knows how to handle that kind
of water. 4-5 foot seas need not be unduly uncomfortable in almost any
boat. It's a balancing act between speed, trim, angle of attack, etc. Once
somebody shows you how to do it or you learn on your own, you'll feel a lot
better about rough water.
Rough water is funny... Sometimes, you are going too fast. Sometimes,
you're going too slow. I almost came to blows with a friend... We were
getting beat to hell. Water was flying over the bridge... I kept pestering
him. Finally I said, "Look, you do what I say for the next 30 seconds. If
it's worse, I'll shut up." 15 seconds later, we were stable and dry.
Dennis
Remove HORMEL from hi...@yaHORMELhoo.com to email
Ken
ago I took my 21' bayliner from Montauk to Block through monster swell
kicked up by a far-away hurricane. Although you have to constantly
adjust throttle and helm, you do not have the pounding that heading
into 3' of chop will produce. After 1 hour of banging thru that kind
of chop on the Sound at 15 knots on plane, my icebox broke loose and
fell on the cabin sole. If I had not been standing the whole time I
would have lost my back and kidneys. It is this latter condition I
would like to move through at better than 5 knots without suffering
permanent physical injury. I noticed that the heavier boats were
doing 15 with stately grace. Of course, in light conditions, I blast
past them doing 35.
Ken
Rob Hammond
SEAPUPPIE wrote in message <19981106101839...@ng105.aol.com>...
>
>
>>Can anyone who has one please report as to how it performs into strong
>>winds and rough seas? I am
>
>Ken I own a 2452 Bayliner. I take her out Port Canaveral on the coast of
>Florida.
>The 2452 rides very high bow up with the trim tabs in and approx. 2500 rpm.
>This is about 10-12 kts.
>According to my NOA radio I have had the boat out in 4-5 ft. seas. It was
not
>fun, I got sick,and I was scared. Water came over the bow. She did not
break
>apart, sink, or become unrulie. I was able to get her home from about 10
miles
>out.
>
Makes me want to give my 25' Seacat a big wet kiss.
Rob
Mark Bothum
Rob Hammond wrote
>
>Makes me want to give my 25' Seacat a big wet kiss.
>
Makes me want to give the girl in the copy center a...never mind.
Reelriot85
Ed
wrote:
>Good post, John. Next time, take somebody who knows how to handle that kind
>of water. 4-5 foot seas need not be unduly uncomfortable in almost any
>boat. It's a balancing act between speed, trim, angle of attack, etc. Once
>somebody shows you how to do it or you learn on your own, you'll feel a lot
>better about rough water.
>
>Rough water is funny... Sometimes, you are going too fast. Sometimes,
>you're going too slow. I almost came to blows with a friend... We were
>getting beat to hell. Water was flying over the bridge... I kept pestering
>him. Finally I said, "Look, you do what I say for the next 30 seconds. If
>it's worse, I'll shut up." 15 seconds later, we were stable and dry.
>
>Dennis
>
>Remove HORMEL from hi...@yaHORMELhoo.com to email
This is actually a good idea for a thread......
I'd love to hear peoples opinions regarding how to handle rough water,
following seas, quartering seas, seas with chop, etc.
I'm sure it would be controversial, but hell, it would be a nice break
from arguing over something other than layup schedules and non-marine
plywood.
Who's first to share their seamanship? Maybe we should change the
name of the thread.....
-Ed G.
Twin Boat
Barry
West and she did great. I am looking forward to running off shore with my
2450 Bayliner that I am currently refurbishing. People who are willing to
pay the most, and can afford it, are sometimes quick to beleave there is no
other way to do it. Enjoy!
Txvgo
>
>Based on reports in this n/g, the 2452 looks like the industry leader
>for value in this type of boat, by a huge margin at that.
>
I own a 2452.. live on the gulf..have had mine out in rough waters..3-4
seas..with gusty winds.I even spend the night out on it with these conditions..
wife may get a little shaken but goes to sleep anyhow..just have 2 anchors.
for your sea bottom conditons that exist. Sand mud and sea weed have different
holding powers with an incorrect anchor, and besides anchors are cheap, but
don't skimp on the rest of the rode. the only drawback I have is no genset, so
thats why I'm looking at upgrade, which will be a bayliner, BTW, they have a
new 30 footer just out for 99, with twins, which is nice, and optional genset,
gas or diesel. Can't wait to jump on board.. So, have a good time and learn,,
from:
Land of the Buffet shirts,
Skipper
> Owned a 23' Bayliner 2355 Ciera last year. This boat does not, I
> repeat does not perform well in any wind much over 15 kts. After the
> first time I was pushed sideways into another boats bow pulpit I did
> not go out in those conditions.
If you believe that only a light 23' highly maneuverable boat can be
pushed sideways in a wind you have a lesson or two more in your future.
Suspect your problem had more to do with inexperience than the brand of
boat.
> As far as three foot seas are concerned, the only way to smooth out
> the ride was to tab the bow down in order to cut through the waves.
> Only problem was shipping waves over the bow. Been there and done
> that. Don't have this problem anymore, traded the Bayliner for a 30'
> SeaRay.
Would imagine that a 30 footer offers a better ride than a 23 footer.
However, experience may show you MANY other ways to "smooth out the
ride" other than just lowering the tabs.
Oh yes, Congratulations on your new boat!
--
Skipper
Honlpsr
not perform well in any wind much over 15 kts. After the first time I was
pushed sideways into another boats bow pulpit I did not go out in those
Tinkers
cabin cruisers in RI and MA. Having cruised for years (mainly
fishing/diving) in a 25' Bayliner from Boston to the tip of Cape Cod, down
through Buzzard's Bay and into Narragansett Bay and back north again, I
then bought a sailboat, sailed from Boston to San Francisco via Caribbean,
Panama, Hawaii, Mexico etc.
I've enjoyed all these experiences, and considering rough water (I've seen
plenty in both power and sail), here's some advice to those who are
thinking about going out in heavy weather for the first time. I'm sure
others will add comments!
1) Match your speed to the wave conditions. In a powerboat, there's always
the temptation to go too fast. If you bury the bow, or leap off a wave, you
can get into trouble!
2) If in doubt, take it slow and slowly increase your speed until you've
reached the optimum "comfort" level.
3) Play with your trim equipment and try to get a good balance. If a
sailboat rolls over onto its ear, it's not such a problem. Don't try that
in a powerboat!
4) I'm presuming that you will need to get to shore (a sailboater can
always "lie to" under easy sail, overnight if necessary) because of fuel
and other conditions. If you have to aim for a definite location, play with
your course a little if there's sea room, don't feel that you have to aim
exactly for port. For example, if the wind and waves are coming exactly
from "home", bear off a little and see if you can find an easier ride. Even
30 degrees or so off course isn't too bad, you can "tack" over the other
way later.
5) Most small boaters do not have a liferaft or even a dinghy. Please do
not go offshore without at least a dinghy and full set of PFDs, etc. It's
one thing to abandon ship in a bay or lake where there are plenty of other
boaters. It's quite another to have such an incident offshore!
Hope this helps,
Ray
RGrew176
>thats why I'm looking at upgrade, which will be a bayliner, BTW, they have a
>new 30 footer just out for 99, with twins, which is nice, and optional
>genset,
Have you seen the new 3055. I too, am thinking of upgrading from my 2855 to the
new 3055. May very well be the best Bayliner Ciera yet.
> Can't wait to jump on board..
Did get to go on board at the Metro Beach in Michigan on the water boat show
last Sept. One of the reasons I am thinking upgrade is the optional AC and
generator that are offered on the 3055. Like the new cockpit layout also +
plenty of room below and nice layout.
Gould 0738
>It's in the name (bay)liner
Did somebody mention bail-liner? :-)
but seriously; knock, knock, knock. The big B sure takes it on the chin(e)
'round here. It sure isn't only boat available out there with some prominent
characteristics defined by the mass production process. You'd think so, though,
reading the
NG. Truth be told, a lot of the B knockers are boating in vessels that are not
that much different except in brand identity.
fr...@home.com
True perhaps, but a negative reputation spreads quickly. Example is a recent
marina incedent where a guy was standing on the end of the bow pulpit handling
a line, when much to his suprise the bow pulpit and all the rigging fell away
underneath him, he hurt himself on the way down. Upon inspection it turns out
the bow pulpit was made out of:you guessed it, PARTICAL BOARD, covered with
fiberglass. Now true the guy was on the heavy side, but the boat was a newer
26' Ciera model, and now the entire marina knows it's reputation. This was
standard equipment with the boat btw.
Ray
>
--
Relax- Take a San Diego Cyber Cruise!
www.sdboats.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Harry Krause
> In article <19981108130715...@ng04.aol.com>,
> goul...@aol.com (Gould 0738) wrote:
> > Twin boat said:
> >
> > >It's in the name (bay)liner
> >
> > Did somebody mention bail-liner? :-)
> >
> > but seriously; knock, knock, knock. The big B sure takes it on the chin(e)
> > 'round here. It sure isn't only boat available out there with some prominent
> > characteristics defined by the mass production process. You'd think so,
> though,
> > reading the
> > NG. Truth be told, a lot of the B knockers are boating in vessels that are not
> > that much different except in brand identity.
>
> True perhaps, but a negative reputation spreads quickly. Example is a recent
> marina incedent where a guy was standing on the end of the bow pulpit handling
> a line, when much to his suprise the bow pulpit and all the rigging fell away
> underneath him, he hurt himself on the way down. Upon inspection it turns out
> the bow pulpit was made out of:you guessed it, PARTICAL BOARD, covered with
> fiberglass. Now true the guy was on the heavy side, but the boat was a newer
> 26' Ciera model, and now the entire marina knows it's reputation. This was
> standard equipment with the boat btw.
>
> Ray
>
You know, this is the second or third instance in which that brand of boat was
mentioned in connection with the use of particle board. It was astonishing to me the
first time...and now it seems even worse.
Particle board on a boat? Hehehe.,
RJDAINES
>
Oh, and so many boats are made of foam these days (Whaler) like that is
stronger. And since when is a tiny bow pulpit made to support the weight of a
"full"-grown male? That's not what it was engineered for. Sure, you could no
doubt support 20 circus elephants on a Hattras' pulpit but let's get real.
Also, particle board can be stronger than many other type of wood board, if
properly manufactured.
Richard Daines
Ledyard, CT
Harry Krause
> >Particle board on a boat? Hehehe.,
> >
>
> Oh, and so many boats are made of foam these days (Whaler) like that is
> stronger. And since when is a tiny bow pulpit made to support the weight of a
> "full"-grown male? That's not what it was engineered for. Sure, you could no
> doubt support 20 circus elephants on a Hattras' pulpit but let's get real.
Are you kidding? You're comparing the compressed foam and heavy glass layup and
stainless steel reinforced bow pulpit of a Whaler to the particle board bow pulpit
of a Bayliner?
I'm a fairly large fellow...and I've stood on bow pulpits of 20-plus footers in
attempts to retrieve anchors or ward off dock bumps. Even if you are in the
cockpit and yanking on the anchor rode to try to retrieve a mildly stuck anchor,
you are putting a hell of a strain on the pulpit.
Particle board is made up of little pieces of wood and glue. It has very little
structural strength. It won't even hold a nail or screw if there is any stress put
on it. And I'd seriously question its ability to maintain any sort of integrity
if it got wet.
> Also, particle board can be stronger than many other type of wood board, if
> properly manufactured.
Oh? Balsa wood? For boat use? Such as real top-grade marine plywood? Oak?
Mahogany? Hell, pressure treated pine is better.
If this particular brand of boat is using particle board, it isn't because it is
"better" than some other material. It is because it is cheaper. If you can't
bounce up and down on your bow pulpit without breaking it off, you sure as hell
don't want to yank your anchor up with it.
Do they use particle board stringers, too?
Richard C. Eriksson
>
(snipped)
And since when is a tiny bow pulpit made to support the weight of a
> "full"-grown male? That's not what it was engineered for.
>
> Richard Daines
Richard, as far as I am concerned - *any* part of a boat, on the
deck or in the cabin, that cannot support the weight of a full
grown male should not be for sale or in the water. That goes for
the pulpit, rails,swim platform, hatches as well as the main deck.
(thinking Harry's "jump on the hatch cover" test isn't a bad idea)
Dick Eriksson
Harry Krause
Hehehe. When I go to a boat show and particular boats interest me, I
abuse them physically (while trying to avoid causing any visible
damage). One thing I do is park my butt on the railings around the boat
to see if they bend, sway, move or cause the supports to crack the gel
coat.
I wonder if there is a "boat particle board" sniffer device, or whether
manufacturers should be forced to disclose such usage?
"Warning: This boat's bow pulpit and cabin top contain particle board,
which the National Boating Safety Commission says can break off while
you are standing on them. Caveat Emptor!"
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Lazy: Motivationally deficient
Mark Bothum
Harry Krause wrote
>Particle board is made up of little pieces of wood and glue.
For us - "Do-It-Yourselfers" - particle board is a Product of Satan.
It's wimpy, it's messy, and it's _heavy_.
For reasons my wife could attest to, (I'm a bit, uh...obsessive.) I've been
all over and through my boat, in places Bayliner never intended any owner
to be seeing, and found only one instance of particle board. That was
(not "is", 'cause I've _really_ got a 'thing' about pressboard.) the cabin
door.
I ain't a big guy, 150#, but my wife's been on the pulpit with me, while we
retrieved our poor, blind, but still highly active dog from the water.
Damn dog is also getting pretty deaf, too, and...well, weird. We thought she
was
getting some kinda canine Alzheimer's or something, 'til we took her to the
vet.
She's walked off the dock twice, and jumped overboard once. Now she's got
a full halter, and a li'l doggie life jacket. What will they think of
next...
>Do they use particle board stringers, too?
I didn't see a smiley, so, no. Not on my pulpit, either. '84 Contessa.
- Mark (They did some other things I didn't care for, though.)
Richard C. Eriksson
The original poster said the now pulpit-less B'liner was a
"newer 26' Ciera model". Skipper's been educating us about
the value engineering now in practice. Maybe particle
board is considered a new, high tech material.
BTW - I think I have a dog from the same litter as yours.
Dick Eriksson
dcar...@my-dejanews.com
fr...@home.com wrote:
> True perhaps, but a negative reputation spreads quickly. Example is a recent
> marina incedent where a guy was standing on the end of the bow pulpit...<snip>
No, no, no, no, no, no...How many times must you be told. Fending off,
anchor retrieval, fender placement, and the other functions usually performed
from this location MUST be done from the security of the cabin hatch.
--
David Carlile
Classic Wooden Boats
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8110
Harry Krause
> Mark Bothum wrote:
> >
> > Harry Krause wrote
> >
> > >Particle board is made up of little pieces of wood and glue.
> >
> > For us - "Do-It-Yourselfers" - particle board is a Product of Satan.
> >
> > It's wimpy, it's messy, and it's _heavy_.
> >
> > For reasons my wife could attest to, (I'm a bit, uh...obsessive.) I've been
> > all over and through my boat, in places Bayliner never intended any owner
> > to be seeing, and found only one instance of particle board. That was
> > (not "is", 'cause I've _really_ got a 'thing' about pressboard.) the cabin
> > door.
> >
>
> > >Do they use particle board stringers, too?
> >
> > I didn't see a smiley, so, no. Not on my pulpit, either. '84 Contessa.
> >
> > - Mark (They did some other things I didn't care for, though.)
>
> The original poster said the now pulpit-less B'liner was a
> "newer 26' Ciera model". Skipper's been educating us about
> the value engineering now in practice. Maybe particle
> board is considered a new, high tech material.
>
> Dick Eriksson
You know, it *is* possible that Bayliner is using particle board as its flotation.
Think about it...it gets really wet, starts to dissolve and you hang onto it as it
floats by...
Even for someting non-structural, such as most paneling, particle board is the
wrong material. The only reason to use it is...it is cheap.
I wonder if one can get ones hands on a Bayliner "cutaway" showing where on each
boat it makes it uses particle board.
Bayliner Boats...The World's Foremost Builder of Boats with Particle Board
Scantlings and Bulkheads, a Familiar Material *YOU* can Trust!
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Failure is not in falling down, but in staying down.
BilllamI
>Path:
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>From: rgre...@aol.com (RGrew176)
>Newsgroups: rec.boats
>Lines: 16
>NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com
>X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
>Date: 8 Nov 1998 01:55:41 GMT
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>References: <19981107111933...@ng148.aol.com>
>Message-ID: <19981107205541...@ng-fi1.aol.com>
>>From: tx...@aol.com
>
>>thats why I'm looking at upgrade, which will be a bayliner, BTW, they have a
>>new 30 footer just out for 99, with twins, which is nice, and optional
>>genset,
>
>Have you seen the new 3055. I too, am thinking of upgrading from my 2855 to
>the
>new 3055. May very well be the best Bayliner Ciera yet.
>
>> Can't wait to jump on board..
I had a '91 Bayliner 2855 that on the evening of July 4th on Lake Washington
where there are 2000+ boats watching the fireworks around Seattle. After the
fireworks, we traveled across the lake to Kirkland Dock to let off friends.
The water was extremely rough with all of the boats traveling to their
destinations at just under planing speed for safety and therefore causing
massive wakes.
I was tied up to the dock and was unloading sleeping children carefully when I
looked forward to see a guy trying to manuver in front of my boat to the dock.
He was coming in much too fast and as his bow pulpit came under mine and then
with the next wave, drove up under my anchor and bow pulpit. It shook the
whole boat violently and raised the bow at least 4 feet. I heard a sickening
shattering of fiberglass as I ran to help the guy secure his boat away from
mine. I looked at the damage of my bow pulpit which was minor appearing
considering the impact that it had sustained. Later looking at it I could see
the inside of the pulpit under the starboard side of the bow pulpit and it was
pure fiberglass, NO wood of any kind. It had been violently struck in an
unnatural manner (from underneath) and withstood the impact admirably.
And yes he did pay agreeably for the repairs of the minor damage.
Bill Landsborough
------------------
To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the
water of life." Revelations 21:6
Mart Green
And since when is a tiny bow pulpit made to support the weight of a
> "full"-grown male? That's not what it was engineered for.
I'm very puzzled by this statement. What IS it for, if not to rely upon
as a structurally sound part of your boat that you might need to be able
to count on to save your life sometime? I'm not familiar with the boat
or bow pulpits in question here, I guess, so I'm seeking instruction. I
am very familiar with other boats, though, and with water, and people,
and I'm genuinely curious about this. Do you have to hand out an
instruction manual to guests informing them that if they slip and fall,
or face a sudden emergency (fending off a crazed boat bent on ramming
you, or anchor retrieval in a sudden line squall, or
whatever--emergencies DO happen) they must not rely on the following
things that LOOK like you could rely on them? Those grab rails were put
on for sex appeal and don't have backer plates, so don't rely on them
please, and DON'T lean on that pulpit?
One doesn't use stanchions or lifelines for deliberate support, but in
an emergency I expect them to be there strong enough to save my life, or
the life of my 220 pound husband. And the pulpit equally so, or more,
because it is often leaned on deliberately--often used for bracing
yourself against during sail changes or anchor retrieval, or fender
placement, or grabbing when you lose your balance. Or the equivalent
power boat activities--fending off, anchor retrieval, bad weather and
accidents are certainly the same. ANYONE can take a fall, sometimes
emergencies DO require you to trust that the pulpit. Or is strong enough
to support you and the anchor, or a tangled anchor rode that's dragged
up an old car door, or even you and a suicidal 500 lb. Marlin,
perhaps...
Is this a nomenclature problem? Are pulpits on these boats decorative
appendages, and anyone who would be aboard would know it just by looking
at it? I lean against the pulpit on a small Whaler all the time, not
violently, but I would expect it to hold if I fell against it, and if my
hefty hub fell on it, I would think it might deform or buckle a bit,
maybe even pop one of its bolts, but I would NOT expect it to just break
off in its entirety and let him go overboard with pulpit parts in hand.
What am I not getting here? I HOPE it is nomenclature. What are these
pulpits FOR?
Mart
Mark Bothum
Harry Krause
>Even for someting non-structural, such as most paneling, particle board is
the
>wrong material. The only reason to use it is...it is cheap.
I guess what really ires me is all the computer hutches and entertainment
centers that are being built from the crap. So they weigh slightly more than
Vermont, and collapse if you lean against 'em.
Can't think of any reason to use it on a boat.
I've been engineering for...ack, long time. And frankly, _all_ engineering
is done with cost in mind. It's called "capitalism". (Okay, there are some
"cost-be-damned" projects, but you're talking military/space apps.)
But when you go too far, you'll see the better engineers moving on to
where they can live with their conscience.
- Mark (I have a "Manure Movers" sweatshirt, and I wear it to meetings when
I feel it's needed...I've also been transferred out of
departments :)
Steve Haynes
>the bow pulpit was made out of:you guessed it, PARTICAL BOARD, covered with
>fiberglass. Now true the guy was on the heavy side, but the boat was a newer
>26' Ciera model, and now the entire marina knows it's reputation. This was
>standard equipment with the boat btw.
>
>Ray
>
>
>
>
>>
This brand identity argument only goes so far. I will not argue that
a certain amount of a Grady Whites ar Pursuits cost is in the name but
in no way is it all in the name. Bayliner has a reputation for a good
reason, they earned it. If anyone were offered a 23 ft Grady or a 23
ft Bayliner, at NO COST, who isn't taking the Grady. Buy the Bayliner,
if that fits your bill, just don't falsely justify it.
NOTE: Please no more referrences to Hatteras in a Bayliner discussion.
Harry Krause
> Upon inspection it turns out
> >the bow pulpit was made out of:you guessed it, PARTICAL BOARD, covered with
> >fiberglass. Now true the guy was on the heavy side, but the boat was a newer
> >26' Ciera model, and now the entire marina knows it's reputation. This was
> >standard equipment with the boat btw.
> >
> >Ray
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
>
> This brand identity argument only goes so far. I will not argue that
> a certain amount of a Grady Whites ar Pursuits cost is in the name but
> in no way is it all in the name. Bayliner has a reputation for a good
> reason, they earned it.
I couldn't agree more. Bayliner has the reputation it has earned.
Ken
and it is heavier. The only reason I know for using it instead is
dimensional stability, which hardly matters for an encapsulated
member.
Ken
Harry Krause
> In article <36473F...@vptec.com>, "Richard says...
>
> >> For reasons my wife could attest to, (I'm a bit, uh...obsessive.) I've been
> >> all over and through my boat, in places Bayliner never intended any owner
> >> to be seeing, and found only one instance of particle board. That was
> >> (not "is", 'cause I've _really_ got a 'thing' about pressboard.) the cabin
> >> door.
>
> Wifey and I went on a few Formulas last week at the Ft. Lauderdale
> boat show. She commented that the interior cabinetry (and the
> companionway 'door') were melamine laminate that looked like it
> came right from home depot. I didn't do any destructive testing
> to see what the core was, but it could well have been particle board.
That wouldn't surprise me. In many kitchens, Formica is the surface finish or
covering. It's usable on boats, too.
l
Don Post
Is what we are talking about here the board that is made from sawdust and
glue or the one made from wood chips and glue? They are both heavier than
good old plywood but I know in housing construction, particle board (the
wood chip kind) is used for external sheathing and floors in place of
plywood because it is much cheaper.
-Don
Skipper
> Gould 0738 wrote:
>> but seriously; knock, knock, knock. The big B sure takes it on the
>> chin(e) 'round here. It sure isn't only boat available out there with
>> some prominent characteristics defined by the mass production
>> process. You'd think so, though, reading the NG. Truth be told, a lot
>> of the B knockers are boating in vessels that are not that much
>> different except in brand identity.
> True perhaps, but a negative reputation spreads quickly.
And some are not reluctant to spread negative rumors in support of very
biased views. Have you forgotten so soon your prior "proofs" that went
poof?
> Example is a recent marina incedent where a guy was standing on the
> end of the bow pulpit handling a line, when much to his suprise the
> bow pulpit and all the rigging fell away underneath him, he hurt
> himself on the way down.
Suspect there is MUCH more to this story than a poorly constructed boat.
Bayliners DO NOT have a problem with bow pulpits falling apart. You, on
the other hand, have quite a track record of bashing our most successful
and popular boat manufacturer.
I have seen hurricane damage where a solid core fiberglass encased
Bayliner bow pulpit did considerable damage to another boat without
getting a scratch. The collision impact that created the damage was
considerable more than the weight of one man. If you want to make a
case that solid core fiberglass encased bow pulpits are not able to
safely accomplish their tasks, well... Then make it!
The incident you report is NOT an "example" of an endemic condition, as
you indicate. "Step on your bow pulpit and fall into the sea". ...No
kidding? ...Really?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
Particle board often is made from recycled wood products.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Harry Krause
> Fritz wrote:
>
> > Gould 0738 wrote:
>
> >> but seriously; knock, knock, knock. The big B sure takes it on the
> >> chin(e) 'round here. It sure isn't only boat available out there with
> >> some prominent characteristics defined by the mass production
> >> process. You'd think so, though, reading the NG. Truth be told, a lot
> >> of the B knockers are boating in vessels that are not that much
> >> different except in brand identity.
>
> > True perhaps, but a negative reputation spreads quickly.
>
> And some are not reluctant to spread negative rumors in support of very
> biased views. Have you forgotten so soon your prior "proofs" that went
> poof?
>
> > Example is a recent marina incedent where a guy was standing on the
> > end of the bow pulpit handling a line, when much to his suprise the
> > bow pulpit and all the rigging fell away underneath him, he hurt
> > himself on the way down.
>
> Suspect there is MUCH more to this story than a poorly constructed boat.
> Bayliners DO NOT have a problem with bow pulpits falling apart.
How would *you* know that, SkippyLiner? Are the the collector of Bayliner
systems failures? Do you keep the stats? Does the factory supply you with
info? Do the dealers call you?
You wouldn't know one way or the other.
Eisboch
>
> >Sounds peculiar. First, particle board is more expensive than plywood
> >and it is heavier. The only reason I know for using it instead is
> >dimensional stability, which hardly matters for an encapsulated
> >member.
>
> Is what we are talking about here the board that is made from sawdust and
> glue or the one made from wood chips and glue? They are both heavier than
> good old plywood but I know in housing construction, particle board (the
> wood chip kind) is used for external sheathing and floors in place of
> plywood because it is much cheaper.
>
> -Don
*Thats* what it was designed for - subfloors, sheathing, even roofs.
It uses by-products of other wood based products rather than throwing
it away. I have been told that in proper application and sealed, it
is perfect. I don't think boat construction is proper application.
BTW - it is *great* material for the fabrication of speaker cabinets.
Because there is no grain structure, the cabinet does not have
undesireable resonant frequencies and the sound is more natural.
Just don't install the speakers on your flybridge.
Dick Eriksson
Skipper
> Please no more referrences to Hatteras in a Bayliner discussion.
Shhhhhh!!! Someone may see your referrence. It's a ridiculous
comparison anyway. Everyone know the Hatteras limits you to the same
ol' local waters.
--
Skipper
Ron
......I think we're gonna need a bigger
boat!Skipper
> Skipper wrote:
>> Have you forgotten so soon your prior "proofs" that went poof?
> So Skippy what would that be? Would you be talking about the
> "purposebuilt" gas tank design that encourages corrosion that I sent
> you pictures on?
Naw, thinking about the exploding Bayliner thread that you started,
promised to provide proof of, and then had to retract. Do you remember
the following?
fr...@home.com wrote:
>> I stand corrected, I misunderstood the mechanic, There are 2 bilge
>> pumps located in the aft bilge area, both are mounted 2" above the
>> bottom of the hull...
> Should we just say the proof went poof. :-)
--
Skipper
Marcus G Bell
> Is this a nomenclature problem? Are pulpits on these boats
> decorative appendages, and anyone who would be aboard would know
> it just by looking at it? ... What am I not getting here? I HOPE
> it is nomenclature. What are these pulpits FOR?
Mine is definitely functional. I use it to preach to the masses
whilst underway. I care not that it is not engineered to hold a
full-grown male, for I am weightless and can walk on water.
OUCH. Quit with the lightning, will ya?
-- -- Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
THEBOAT3
>If you believe that only a light 23' highly maneuverable boat can be
>pushed sideways in a wind you have a lesson or two more in your future.
>
Get off your desk and on the water,and you will belive.
Stan C. E-MAIL THEB...@aol.com
Honlpsr
gain. The only point I was trying to make was that a heavier boat tends to give
you a moment or two more reaction time before the wind effects you. BTW, my
remarks were not anti Bayliner. Only had mine a year and loved it and had no
problems with it at all. The trade up was simply
to move up in size.
Larry
WHardy1902
>properly manufactured.
>
>
>Ledyard, CT
Particle board is very strong, as long as you don't get it wet. (How do you
manage that on a boat)
Then it turns into sawdust.
Not Harding
It's Hardy
As in Hardy Har Har
welly...@my-dejanews.com
Skipper <ski...@dtc.net> wrote:
> Fritz wrote:
>
> > Gould 0738 wrote:
>
>
> > True perhaps, but a negative reputation spreads quickly.
>
> And some are not reluctant to spread negative rumors in support of very
> poof?
So Skippy what would that be? Would you be talking about the "purposebuilt"
gas tank design that encourages corrosion that I sent you pictures on? If I
recall you were ranting that there was not statistical evidence to support
this, yet when 2 or three others brought this up several months ago you were
suspiciously silent.
> > Example is a recent marina incedent where a guy was standing on the
> > end of the bow pulpit handling a line, when much to his suprise the
> > bow pulpit and all the rigging fell away underneath him, he hurt
> > himself on the way down.
>
> Suspect there is MUCH more to this story than a poorly constructed boat.
> Bayliners DO NOT have a problem with bow pulpits falling apart. You, on
> the other hand, have quite a track record of bashing our most successful
> and popular boat manufacturer.
I only report on what I have some experience with. Maybe they don't (fall
apart) as a rule, but this one sure did, or are you telling me that I made it
up? Would you like to come down to the marina and tell everyone that it
didn't happen? The story is that the boat was being moved because the slip
was being worked on, in the process of moving it the worker was standing on
the end of the bow pulpit, it broke, as did the support rails and he went in
the Bay. The marina had to pay the bill. Perhaps this is anecdotal, but my
original response was to how reputations and perceptions are created.
Do you also want to tell me that the Bayliner sitting in my garage does not
have particle board as the core for it's cabin doors?
welly...@my-dejanews.com
welly...@my-dejanews.com
welly...@my-dejanews.com
Skipper <ski...@dtc.net> wrote:
> Fritz wrote:
>
> > Gould 0738 wrote:
>
> >> different except in brand identity.
>
>
> And some are not reluctant to spread negative rumors in support of very
> biased views. Have you forgotten so soon your prior "proofs" that went
> poof?
Just what might that be Skippy? Are you referring to the post about the
faulty gas tank design/placement that promoted corrosion? As I recall I sent
you "proof", then you claimed that statistical analysis was needed for proof.
But then when others reported this problem fairly recently you were
suspiciously silent. Go ahead and look it up in Deja buddy- It's all there.
>
> > Example is a recent marina incedent where a guy was standing on the
> > end of the bow pulpit handling a line, when much to his suprise the
> > bow pulpit and all the rigging fell away underneath him, he hurt
> > himself on the way down.
>
> Suspect there is MUCH more to this story than a poorly constructed boat.
> Bayliners DO NOT have a problem with bow pulpits falling apart. You, on
> the other hand, have quite a track record of bashing our most successful
> and popular boat manufacturer.
My post was in response to how reputations get started and I offered a real
life example. All my previous posts have been of personal experience. I see
and take pictures of an average of 40 boats a month, all used in salt water.
You may not like my posts but I try and stick to the truth, and since I know
how you operate, I often document them.
The whole story is the marina was moving the boat to work on the slip the
worker was standing on the bow pulpit and it and the life rail broke loose
dumping him in the bay. The Marina had to pay the damages. Your "Most
successful and popular boat manufacturer" has one hell of a reputation in
this marina- Just like you in this Newsgroup.
>
> I have seen hurricane damage where a solid core fiberglass encased
> Bayliner bow pulpit did considerable damage to another boat without
> getting a scratch. The collision impact that created the damage was
> considerable more than the weight of one man. If you want to make a
> case that solid core fiberglass encased bow pulpits are not able to
> safely accomplish their tasks, well... Then make it!
But was the pulpit still attached to the boat? Was Toto there too??
Your boating buddy,
Ray
Gould 0738
>Particle board bow pulpits on Bayliners?
>Must be that "value engineering" b'liner huggers always talk about.
What did I miss?
Was there a referance to particle board bow pulpits someplace?
Never personally seen this particular cost saving technique, and I'm probably
not prepared to accept it unless or until I do. From Missouri on this one.
Stick a hunk of particle board off the bow, ask it to support the weight of an
anchor, and then proceed to douse it liberally with water? That would be
completely crazy.
A particle board door to the head? Yeah sure, it can be done
(even if it shouldn't). But a particle board bow pulpit? Can't imagine anybody
even trying such a stunt.
Let me know what model this innovation is featured on, I gotta see it for
myself (or fail to).
Gould 0738
Thanks to AOL I now see where Reef Itch Ron was getting his info on particle
board bow pulpits. Threads often show up
disconnected on AOL.
Question: Other than the second hand tale told by a guy who
knows a guy who saw such and such.........is there any definitive evidence that
Bayliner Cieras use particle board cores in their bow pulpits?
Who here has *personal* first hand knowledge of this?
Shameful (if true).
Mart Green
> What are these pulpits FOR?
> Marcus G Bell wrote:
> Mine is definitely functional. I use it to preach to the masses
> whilst underway. I care not that it is not engineered to hold a
> full-grown male, for I am weightless and can walk on water.
I once was blind but now I see... I foolishly got carried away by the
spirit of boating for a moment and hadn't really focused on the fact
that I was making objective inquiry about a doctrinal issue within
rec.boats.religious.Jihad.goofy. I repented immediately.
Do you run into traction problems walking on water? All-Terrain Sandals
and a pair of maritime martyrs perched on your shoulders to give you
that extra moral lift? Wing-ed trim tabs to get you up on a higher
plane? Aimable jet nozzles in your staff?
Saint Mart the Obscure
Harry Krause
> On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:35:00 -0500, Harry Krause
> <hkr...@erols-nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >How would *you* know that, SkippyLiner? Are the the collector of Bayliner
> >systems failures? Do you keep the stats? Does the factory supply you with
> >info? Do the dealers call you?
> >
> >You wouldn't know one way or the other.
>
> Wouldn't that make two of you?
Not at all, WallyWorld. The only knowledge I have of Bilgeliners is what I've
personally seen and in limited circumstances, been told. I'[ve seen enough on
enough smaller Bilgeliners to assess them.
welly...@my-dejanews.com
Skipper <ski...@dtc.net> wrote:
> welly...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Skipper wrote:
>
>
> Naw, thinking about the exploding Bayliner thread that you started,
> promised to provide proof of, and then had to retract. Do you remember
> the following?
>
> fr...@home.com wrote:
>
> >> I stand corrected, I misunderstood the mechanic, There are 2 bilge
> >> pumps located in the aft bilge area, both are mounted 2" above the
> >> bottom of the hull...
Sorry pal, never retracted just corrected a minor technical detail, but the
facts stand. The boat was designed with he bilge pumps mounted above the
bottom of the hull allowing salt water to circulate around the aluminum gas
tank.
Got it now??
Ray
> --
> Skipper
Harry Krause
> In article <3647C11C...@dtc.net>,
> Skipper <ski...@dtc.net> wrote:
> > welly...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > Skipper wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Naw, thinking about the exploding Bayliner thread that you started,
> > promised to provide proof of, and then had to retract. Do you remember
> > the following?
> >
> > fr...@home.com wrote:
> >
> > >> I stand corrected, I misunderstood the mechanic, There are 2 bilge
> > >> pumps located in the aft bilge area, both are mounted 2" above the
> > >> bottom of the hull...
>
> Sorry pal, never retracted just corrected a minor technical detail, but the
> facts stand. The boat was designed with he bilge pumps mounted above the
> bottom of the hull allowing salt water to circulate around the aluminum gas
> tank.
>
> Got it now??
>
> Ray
>
Stop being so specific, Ray. It makes Slippery look bad.
ref
Ron <Reef...@webtv.net> wrote:
>Particle board bow pulpits on Bayliners?
>Must be that "value engineering" b'liner huggers always talk about.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I find this hard to believe. I know that for
years, professional boat experts have been telling me Bayliners
are poorly built, but particle board anchor pulpits? Please.
Ron M.
hidda
dcar...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<727ifs$ppu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <72747v$cn4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> fr...@home.com wrote:
>
>> True perhaps, but a negative reputation spreads quickly. Example is a
recent
>> marina incedent where a guy was standing on the end of the bow
>
>
>No, no, no, no, no, no...How many times must you be told. Fending off,
>anchor retrieval, fender placement, and the other functions usually
performed
>from this location MUST be done from the security of the cabin hatch.
>
>
>--
>David Carlile
>Classic Wooden Boats
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8110
HEHEHEHE!
hidda
Don Post wrote in message <727up8$qbu$1...@strato.ultra.net>...
>>Sounds peculiar. First, particle board is more expensive than plywood
>>and it is heavier. The only reason I know for using it instead is
>>dimensional stability, which hardly matters for an encapsulated
>>member.
>
>Is what we are talking about here the board that is made from sawdust and
>glue or the one made from wood chips and glue? They are both heavier than
>good old plywood but I know in housing construction, particle board (the
>wood chip kind) is used for external sheathing and floors in place of
>plywood because it is much cheaper.
>
>
>-Don
>
>
I think you're confusing OSB (Oriented Strand Board) with particle board.
NOBODY uses particle board for sheathing or underlayment.
Dennis
Remove HORMEL from hi...@yaHORMELhoo.com to email
Harry Krause
Visit Dave's site...he's got some nice boats...and I know why he's not
publishing the home address of the molded ply YellowJacket...if he did, I'd
make a call to Midnight Boat Deliveries and arrange...
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
I'm being held prisoner in a chocolate factory. Don't send help.
hidda
Skipper wrote in message <3647829D...@dtc.net>...
>Fritz wrote:
>
>> Gould 0738 wrote:
>
>>> chin(e) 'round here. It sure isn't only boat available out there with
>>> some prominent characteristics defined by the mass production
>>> process. You'd think so, though, reading the NG. Truth be told, a lot
>>> different except in brand identity.
>
>
>biased views. Have you forgotten so soon your prior "proofs" that went
>poof?
>
>> bow pulpit and all the rigging fell away underneath him, he hurt
>> himself on the way down.
>
>Suspect there is MUCH more to this story than a poorly constructed boat.
>Bayliners DO NOT have a problem with bow pulpits falling apart. You, on
>the other hand, have quite a track record of bashing our most successful
>and popular boat manufacturer.
>
>Bayliner bow pulpit did considerable damage to another boat without
>getting a scratch. The collision impact that created the damage was
>considerable more than the weight of one man. If you want to make a
>case that solid core fiberglass encased bow pulpits are not able to
>safely accomplish their tasks, well... Then make it!
>
>you indicate. "Step on your bow pulpit and fall into the sea". ...No
>kidding? ...Really?
>
>--
>Skipper
There you go again... Calling somebody a liar! Sad... Really Sad....
Marcus G Bell
> I have seen hurricane damage where a solid core fiberglass
> encased Bayliner bow pulpit did considerable damage to another
> boat without getting a scratch. The collision impact that
> created the damage was considerable more than the weight of one
> man.
A thrust impact is a scenario that differs considerably from a
shear impact.
Plastic drinking straws have been found embedded in tree trunks by
the force of a tornado. It would thus seem that the straw was
mightier than the tree. The same tree turned sideways can easily
support the weight of a full grown man, and nobody is suggesting
that the man could penetrate the tree were he flung at it by a
tornado. But this man would have no problem whatsoever bending the
straw with 3 of his fingers.
Hence, I have no problem believing that a bow pulpit could be
thrust into and penetrate the hull of another boat without
sustaining damage, yet fail to sustain the shear force of a man
standing on it.
Whether this is endemic to certain designs is a separate
issue.
hidda
Honlpsr wrote in message <19981109201726...@ng67.aol.com>...
A light boat with little draft and lots of windage requires a lot of skill
to maneuver in windy conditions while going slow, as in docking... A
heavier boat with more draft and less windage is way easier to dock...
never was any question in my mind... Of course, Skipper would object... He
always seems to object to anything I say.
Skipper ought to come here where the wind sometimes gusts to about 25
knots... away from the dock...
Harry Krause
> Skipper (ski...@dtc.net) wrote:
>
> > I have seen hurricane damage where a solid core fiberglass
> > encased Bayliner bow pulpit did considerable damage to another
> > boat without getting a scratch. The collision impact that
> > created the damage was considerable more than the weight of one
> > man.
>
> A thrust impact is a scenario that differs considerably from a
> shear impact.
Skippy's understanding of shear impact doesn't go beyond bumping into a
woman who is wearing sheer pantyhose.
Harry Krause
How could he do that? There's no way to trailer that little barge of his to
Hawaii. No Interstate.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Sinead O'Connor: a chia pet before adding water.
Jeff
wrote:
>I think you're confusing OSB (Oriented Strand Board) with particle board.
>NOBODY uses particle board for sheathing or underlayment.
>
>Dennis
>
>Remove HORMEL from hi...@yaHORMELhoo.com to email
>
Actually, OSB is commonly used for sheathing because it is typically
much cheaper than plywood. Recently, OSB prices have skyrocketed, so
it may be close to a wash now.
In NC, particle board is FREQUENTLY used as underlayment. I made lots
of money installing particle board in new house construction. It is
used on top of 1/2" plywood in rooms that will be carpeted. In
areas that will be tiled or have linoleum, 3/4" plywood is layed on
top. Some new homes now use 3/4" tongue and groove plywood for
flooring, and as such need no particle board underlayment. Depending
on the cost of plywood and particle board (they are constantly
fluctuating), the tongue and groove method may be cheaper.
Jeff
Sorry, but email address witheld to keep spammers away.
Please respond in Usenet.
Mark Bothum
Marcus G Bell wrote
>
>Plastic drinking straws have been found embedded in tree trunks by
>the force of a tornado. It would thus seem that the straw was
>mightier than the tree.
Not to draw away from your argument, which I agree with,
but I believe there is some evidence, for which I have no
references :) that the force of the wind bends the tree, opening
cracks in the wood into which objects become lodged, then
these openings disappear when the tornado passes and the
tree/fence post/whatever returns to it's pre-storm form, leaving
drinking straws, wheat straws, and Buddly Lee dolls embedded
within 'solid' objects.
(A totally off-subject digression that has nuthin' to do with the fact
that the hunks of pressboard (on edge) supporting my waterbed
would probably not even support my weight in a shear condition.)
Skipper
> A light boat with little draft and lots of windage requires a lot of
> skill to maneuver in windy conditions while going slow, as in
> docking... A heavier boat with more draft and less windage is way
> easier to dock... never was any question in my mind... Of course,
> Skipper would object... He always seems to object to anything I say.
> Skipper ought to come here where the wind sometimes gusts to about 25
> knots... away from the dock...
Believe the original question was from a novice boater having problems
docking a small boat and wanting to move up in size to resolve that
problem. My advice remains get more experience and comfortable docking
the small boat BEFORE moving up.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> I think you're confusing OSB (Oriented Strand Board) with particle
> board. NOBODY uses particle board for sheathing or underlayment.
Actually, Harry and Fritz have been using it quite frequently lately to
sheath and support their boating opinions. However, it does seem that
SOB or SOL would be more descriptive of those opinions.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> How could he do that? There's no way to trailer that little barge of
> his to Hawaii. No Interstate.
Barge? What barge? Oh, you mean that local fishing barge you dumped
because it restricted your effective range to the same old local waters.
Understand you opted for a SeaPro, does that have corinthian leather
upholstery also? Does it allow you to cruise distant waters in comfort?
Have seen some very disturbing reports about SeaPros lately. No need to
discuss those here and start another unsubstantiated rumor.
--
Skipper
BilllamI
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Like I said in another post, my Bayliner 1991 Ciera Sunbridge 2855 had pure
fiberglass material throughout in the bow pulpit. And it was very strong.
BTW, Bayliner has come out with an ad years ago that states something like
this, "The bow pulpit is not designed to be stood upon while the boat is
underway." I am sure that someone in the world has fallen off at speed and
been chewed up by the rapidly following propellers.
Bill Landsborough
------------------
No, No Retailers... The day of Thanksgiving is next...then you can
commercialize and corrupt my Lord and Savior's birthday.
Harry Krause
Uh-huh.
Go research the sinking date of the Edmund Fitzgerald. You got that wrong,
too.
And while you are at it, how many hours did you put on your boat this year?
Two?
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Belly Dancers: People who use sign language and stutter
Mark Bothum
BilllamI wrote
>BTW, Bayliner has come out with an ad years ago that states something like
>this, "The bow pulpit is not designed to be stood upon while the boat is
>underway." I am sure that someone in the world has fallen off at speed and
>been chewed up by the rapidly following propellers.
And, in many places, with boats of that size\type, it's illegal.
(No, I don't know specifics.)
Del Cecchi
use it to make those 39 dollar dressers at Kmart.
Perhaps you folks are confusing paticle board, which won't even hold
itself up, with things like Oriented Strand Board, or Oxboard, or as it
is sometimes called waferboard which is made of thin fairly large chips
of wood such as aspen. It is used for sheathing and underlayment.
OSB is quite strong, but less expensive than plywood.
Why do you think it is used instead of plywood, because it is more
expensive?
del cecchi
boats near the large Oxboard plant in Cook, MN.
(you should see the pile of trees in their storage area. they are
delivered as whole tree trunks.)
WHardy1902 wrote:
>
> >Also, particle board can be stronger than many other type of wood board, if
> >properly manufactured.
> >
> >
> >Richard Daines
> >Ledyard, CT
>
> Particle board is very strong, as long as you don't get it wet. (How do you
> manage that on a boat)
> Then it turns into sawdust.
>
> Not Harding
> It's Hardy
> As in Hardy Har Har
Del Cecchi
>
> hidda wrote:
>
> > dcar...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> > <727ifs$ppu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > >In article <72747v$cn4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > > fr...@home.com wrote:
> > >
> > recent
> > >> marina incedent where a guy was standing on the end of the bow
> > >
> > >
> > >No, no, no, no, no, no...How many times must you be told. Fending off,
> > >anchor retrieval, fender placement, and the other functions usually
> > performed
> > >from this location MUST be done from the security of the cabin hatch.
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >David Carlile
> > >Classic Wooden Boats
> > >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8110
> >
> > HEHEHEHE!
>
> Visit Dave's site...he's got some nice boats...and I know why he's not
> publishing the home address of the molded ply YellowJacket...if he did, I'd
> make a call to Midnight Boat Deliveries and arrange...
>
>
> Harry Krause
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
Typical Liberal Democrat. See something nice and immediatly start
fantasizing about how to get it without paying for it. Maybe you could
get an executive order issued, Harry. Once Gephart or Ted Kennedy takes
over they can just have it delivered to you. I'm sure they can plant an
assault weapon on the owner then shoot him.
:-) :-) :-) :-)
gee, this is fun. Now I see why Harry does it. :-)
hope he likes it.
Once is enough for me.
Del Cecchi
Marcus G Bell
> >
> > Plastic drinking straws have been found embedded in tree
> > trunks by the force of a tornado. It would thus seem that the
> > straw was mightier than the tree.
Mark Bothum (mbo...@intermec.com) wrote:
> Not to draw away from your argument, which I agree with, but I
> believe there is some evidence, for which I have no references
> :) that the force of the wind bends the tree, opening cracks in
> the wood into which objects become lodged, then these openings
> disappear when the tornado passes and the tree/fence
> post/whatever returns to it's pre-storm form, leaving drinking
> straws, wheat straws, and Buddly Lee dolls embedded within
> 'solid' objects.
Neato.
Possibility not yet entertained regarding the Bayliner in the
hurricane: damage to "other" vessel was by some object other than
the Bayliner pulpit--perhaps a tree, car, or farm animal. Bayliner
was later moved by hurricane to proximity of "other" vessel,
damage misattributed to have been caused by the Bayliner.
Another possibility regarding the pulpit that failed under the
weight of the man: pulpit was previously damaged by something
else, but damage was not made obvious till the pulpit collapsed
under a load it would have normally sustained with aplomb.
> (A totally off-subject digression that has nuthin' to do with
> the fact that the hunks of pressboard (on edge) supporting my
> waterbed would probably not even support my weight in a shear
> condition.)
Well, it did get me to imagine some alternative versions of the
truth regarding the "evidence" as presented.
Back to the pressboard. Pressboard sags under its own weight when
used as shelving. When used as the uprights of the furniture, it
works just fine. A shear load is both compression and stretching.
Pressboard holds well against compression (it's precompressed) but
not so well against stretch. If covered with a suitable skin to
withstand the stretch part of the load, it might work. However,
most varieties I've seen are not so hot in the wet.
Marcus G Bell
Marcus G Bell
> Perhaps you folks are confusing paticle board, which won't even
> hold itself up, with things like Oriented Strand Board, or
> Oxboard, or as it is sometimes called waferboard which is made
> of thin fairly large chips of wood such as aspen. It is used for
> sheathing and underlayment. OSB is quite strong, but less
> expensive than plywood.
Around where I do a lot of building, we call the latter
"Aspenite".
Peter W. Meek
>Not to draw away from your argument, which I agree with,
>but I believe there is some evidence, for which I have no
>references :) that the force of the wind bends the tree, opening
>cracks in the wood into which objects become lodged, then
>these openings disappear when the tornado passes and the
>tree/fence post/whatever returns to it's pre-storm form, leaving
>drinking straws, wheat straws, and Buddly Lee dolls embedded
>within 'solid' objects.
This doesn't explain 2x4s jammed through cinderblock walls, nor
does it explain why an arrow can be shot through a board. If
the forward motion is fast enough, a limber-but-strong object
can deliver all its momentum to a very small contact point and
drive through. It is moving fast enough that the middle of the
slender object cannot be accelerated sideways fast enough to
relieve the pressure exerted by the end. I have seen movies of
"cannon" tests where slender objects were propelled against
stationary objects. Some really improbable results were
clearly documented.
--
--Pete
pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
rec.boats caps at:
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/cap-main.html
Mark Bothum
Peter W. Meek wrote
>>references :) that the force of the wind bends the tree, opening
>>cracks in the wood into which objects become lodged, then
>
>This doesn't explain 2x4s jammed through cinderblock walls, nor
>does it explain why an arrow can be shot through a board. If
Aw, sure it does. The wind bent the cinderblock and opened a gap,
then the 2x4 came along...<ruh-roh, this is starting to sound stupid>...
DOES TOO! DOES! DON'T USE LOGIC ON ME! 'CAUSE I *KNOW*!
:)
Okay okay, I see your point. <==== subtle pun inserted sharply
- mark
Dutch183
>years, professional boat experts have been telling me Bayliners
>are poorly built,
Once again its Bayliner bashing time, I bought a '86 Cierra 2550 this year and
sailed the Hudson and East Rivers(NY) in some rough waters and the boat was
very stable and handled beautifully. Love it!
Harry Krause
You got the location wrong for the boat test. It was the *Bay* of Hudson, from
Cape Henrietta Maria to Cape Southampton, in March. Let us know how you make out.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Pride is what we have. Vanity is what others have.
MarkypieP
Jeff
>Harry Krause wrote:
>
>> How could he do that? There's no way to trailer that little barge of
>> his to Hawaii. No Interstate.
>
>Barge? What barge? Oh, you mean that local fishing barge you dumped
>because it restricted your effective range to the same old local waters.
>Understand you opted for a SeaPro, does that have corinthian leather
>upholstery also? Does it allow you to cruise distant waters in comfort?
>Have seen some very disturbing reports about SeaPros lately. No need to
>discuss those here and start another unsubstantiated rumor.
>
>--
>Skipper
I asked the question earlier about Sea Pro quality. Without jumping
into the debate between you and Harry, what (substantiated?)
disturbing reports have you heard/seen/read about Sea Pro lately? I'm
close to buying one.
Harry Krause
None. Jame put up such a post as a satrical commentary, but, apparently, only
fooled Skippy with it. And Skippy was soooooooooo hopefull.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Veni, vidi, velcro: I came, I saw, I stuck around.
Harry Krause
That's satirical. Sheesh.
I doubt if Skippy has ever seen a SeaPro. I don't believe there is much of a
market for them in the middle of Kansas, where he lives and boats.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I.
Toyscarab
box going back and forth about which bicycle is the best and which one is a
piece of shit. Then, without a second thought, they all jump on their
respective bikes and ride to their respective homes for supper.
Kinda stupid, aint it.
Tell you what. My dad owns a 1982 19' Capri Bayliner W/ Volvo 120.
Bought it new. Lord knows how many hours, new carpet, (ski fins took their
toll), one alternator, five impellers, (he only changes the impeller every few
years, drives me nuts), and 15 oil changes.
NOW. I used to own a 1990 SeaRay 210 W/260hp Mercruiser. Had major
problems with the bottom of the boat upon delivery. After a number of trips to
the dealer who; drilled holes in it, ground on it, "cut" on it, added trim tabs
to make up for it, etc., I found myself in a first name relationship with one
of the "wheels" in the Tenn. home office. Giving Sea Ray one last chance to
fix the problem, I suggested a very reputable shop called "Truman Fiberglass
repair". SeaRay agreed, the boat was taken to Truman . After much measuring,
blueprinting, etc... Representatives from SeaRay and the repair shop determind
the hull was warped. The boat was repaired and I was on the water. It wasn't
long before we remembered the back to back seats broke apart. We forgot about
that problem messing with the hull. The wood split on the bottom of one, and
the "aluminum" hinges broke on the top of both seats. Same seats as Dad's
Bayliner. I know, I've had them out of both boats. Then the windshield
bracket broke. Probably due to my nephew (in law) swinging from it. This did
not make SeaRay a piece of shit, nor did the other problems. It was a bad
boat. Shit happens.
So, I say we forget about Bayliner. Lets bag on SeaRay!!! Junk, right?
Piece of shit, right? Hell Harry, one time I scraped my elbow on the ski
locker lid. Clumsiness on my part? NO! It's the boats fault! So lets all
join in. (except for you SeaRay owners, of course) Sea Ray is the bottom of
the heap!
The fact is, I had problems with one boat. I also had Hundreds of hours
of fun in that same boat. As a matter of fact, I have recomended SeaRay to
people I know and some on this N.G. who were looking for a quality boat at a
good price.
SeaRay took great care of us, and the boat. The dealer is no longer in
business.
My dad knows all about my SeaRay, which, btw, cost me almost three times
whathis Bayliner cost him.
Anybody want to tell him Bayliner is junk?
Mike G. (H82LUZ1)
Mark Bothum
MarkypieP wrote
>So, like, explain Buddy Lee?!
Oops...uh, well. To make a short story long -
We're (wife and I) freaks. We live way out in de boonies,
and I do a long commute. And we get about 2 TV stations,
when we bother.
So the 'Buddy Lee' reference may just be from a local
commercial, I dunno.
But he's this doll, representing the Lee jean company,
who gets sucked up in a tornado while rescuing a cat
that didn't need rescuing, and gets plastered completely
through a tree.
Now, aren't you sorry you asked? :)
- Mark (who just went 3 weeks without water, 'til I dug up damn near the
whole friggin' line before finding the problem...which had
nothin'
to do with the line. Try _that_ to get a steely-eyed glare from
the
wife.)
BilllamI
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SEA RAY, Isn't that what Harry owns...? Like a 18.42675 footer?
> My dad knows all about my SeaRay, which, btw, cost me almost three times
>whathis Bayliner cost him.
> Anybody want to tell him Bayliner is junk?
> Mike G.
Good article, Mike. Your dad knows quality when he sees (and owns) it.
Skipper
> I asked the question earlier about Sea Pro quality. Without jumping
> into the debate between you and Harry, what (substantiated?)
> disturbing reports have you heard/seen/read about Sea Pro lately? I'm
> close to buying one.
Don't be afraid to buy one. You can find the articles by searching "Sea
Pro" on the Deja search engine.
--
Skipper
Toyscarab
but this crap gets old after a while. I'm sure you all get the idea. (well,
maybe with the exception of Harry)
As I have said before;
No such thing as a bad boat. Some are just better than others.
Mike G. (H82LUZ1)
Harry Krause
> In article <3649f428...@news.mindspring.com>, sti...@outhouse.com wrote:
>
> > I asked the question earlier about Sea Pro quality. Without jumping
> > into the debate between you and Harry, what (substantiated?)
> > disturbing reports have you heard/seen/read about Sea Pro lately? I'm
> > close to buying one.
>
> Your wise to avoid the Skipper and Harry debate. That's really just about
> personalities, more than boats.
That's your opinion. Skipper has never even seen a SeaPro. The only thing *factual*
he says about the line comes from your satirical post or from a fellow who had a
boat where a screw or two backed out, which I would consider not even minor. Hell,
when we got our new Hatt a few years ago, there were a couple of things I had to
tighten. That's a lot different than someone's report here that a Bayliner bow
pulpit broke off when someone stood on it and, upon examination, was determined to
be constructed of fiberglass over particle board..
> I recently did a satire laced post that
> did include real information on the SeaPro line, as a parody of the
> constant Bayliner bashing, that unfortunately goes on here. The hope was
> it would improve that situation. As half feared, and expected, it
> didn't.
Naw. That wasn't your hope. You wanted to see if you would snag me. You didn't. But
you did snag Skipper. *He* believed it.
>
>
> What I learned, in gathering the information for my post, is that SeaPro
> has three distinct lines of boats in the 18.5 ft size range. A Center
> Console, a Bay, and a Skiff series. Each seems designed for a different
> purpose; and standard features, hull weights, gas tank capacity, etc are
> different for each......I would expect the price is also different. You
> probably already know all that, and have chosen the one most appropriate
> for your intended use......or may not be looking at that size SeaPro.
Duh. Gathering information? You mean, what you pulled from the web site. I've owned
two of the 18' Center Consoles and one "Bay" boat. The laminate schedule and
everything else of importance, materials and construction-wise, are exactly the
same. I've never really looked closely at the "Skiff" series, but it seems to be a
"Carolina-skiff" like boat with a full inner liner instead of a spackle paint
finished single thinckness hull.
> That post also included some information concerning the Merc Optimax and
> OMC Ficht motors, that may be of benefit. Assuming you're considering one
> or the other of those motors, you may want to read the *Feb 98 issue of
> Trailer Boats* magazine. They had a good comparison of the two, that
> expands on the information I posted......without the satire. :-)
Yeah, the motors tested out the same. There were no differences of any consequence
in performance, fuel use, noise, et cetera. You conveniently left that out.
> Harry has posted that he is pleased, with his SeaPro, but has mentioned
> that he had some unexplained "situations" with the boat that were resolved
> with the help of the SeaPro president and production manager. Maybe he'll
> expand on that here, to give you more info.
No need. It was peculiar to the particular way I run a boat, not the boat itself.
The factory offered a simple solution and it worked.
> Another couple of posters, have indicated that they either didn't like the
> fit and finish of the line, and didn't buy it for that reason....... or
> owned the boat and had some problems with screws coming loose, and poor
> quality hatches, but was generally pleased with the boat, other than these
> relatively minor problems.
Uh-huh. Screws coming loose implies something serious. It wasn't. Same thing with
the hatch covers, except the fellow apparently didn't realize that the larger
covers NEED latches on both sides. In other words, you didn't know or post enough
information to explain the situation.
>
> I've personally been on a SeaPro 18.5 center console model myself, and
> found it a good quality mid-priced boat, that I'd certainly consider
> buying.
I consider it a good quality low-priced boat. And I certainly don't mean to
"apologize" for any of its shortcomings, real, imagined or made-up. You won't hear
of a pulpit falling off a SeaPro, or of it not draining properly below the deck or
of particle board. And you can find out what the manufacturer uses and how much he
uses to build the hull. With specifics. Try *that* with a Bayliner Trophy.