Bilge Pump Switch
Oliver Fleming
I am sure this has been covered before but I cannot find it
on google.
However I am sick of replacing bilge pump switches. ( I have a
shed full of floats!)
I thought to seal a mercury switch and put it on the float when
the float goes up the pump comes on (through a good relay)
However the switch comes on the pump runs for a very short time
and just clicks on and off driving the relay crazy.
I need to have a delay that will keep the relay pulled in say
5 to 10 seconds before dropping out and resetting.
Anyone have an idea or circuit that will do this for me.
Thanks
Oliver Fleming
Vito
>
> I need to have a delay that will keep the relay pulled in say
> 5 to 10 seconds before dropping out and resetting.
We used a big capacitor across high resistance relay windings. The
operate voltage also charged the capacitor which discharged thru the
winding when the operate voltage was removed keeping the relay operated
for a short time, but not for 10 seconds. We had special slow release
relays for that.
It might be simpler to fix the leaks (c:
Derek.Moody
You could use a simple RC delay to hold the relay circuit if you must but
what you really want is some built in hysteresis at the switch.
To take your mercury switch - add another one at (say) 15 deg offset, use
one to switch on and the other to switch off.
The comersial float switches seem OK in calm water - are you moored in an
exposed situation? I can't think of any other reason for repeated failure.
One other option is an air-pressure switch at the top of a tube open to
the bottom of the bilge.
Cheerio,
--
>> derek...@clara.net
Steve
I sypathize with your frustrations with bilge pump switchs. Seems the Rule
standard switches are 'designed-to-fail' within a year. When you complain,
they (West Marine) will point you to the Rule Platinum that, of course, cost
much more. "Has a 2 year guarantee...."
The best bilge pump switch I have had came from the '70s into the '80 (when
I sold the boat).. I believe it was a Rule, but it has a ball bearing the
rolled back and forth inside the float lever. The float was set to pivet on
a balance shaft in the middle. As the water raised, the float would raise
even with the weight of the ball in the low end. Once the float was high
enough the ball rolled to the other end and caused the float contacts to
close. Ball stayed in the contact end until the water level was lowered
enough for the ball to roll back to the other end.
I have three different kinds of float switches on my boat now (none are
Rule) in 3 seperate bilge areas. Two have failed or are malfucntioning in
the first year of service. Report to follow as soon as I gather some Mfg
name and model.
--
My opinion and experience. FWIW
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Phil
to work good. It has a little probe that senses water (no moving parts) and
turns the pump on and runs for an additional 8 seconds. I have it mounted up
from the bottom in the sump so it stays dry and when the water touches it
the 8 extra seconds of run time brings the water to the bottom of the sump.
Keeps the bilge completely empty.
Phil
"Steve" <est...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:vpaecsp...@corp.supernews.com...
Gary Warner
I've got two Rule 1100s that have the float/switch built into them. The
boat is not done yet - anyone have experience with these? Do they
hold up well, or no?
Gary
Peggie Hall
that cause a float switch to stick and burn out would extend their lives
considerably.
Just a thought...'cuz I cleaned my 2-3 times a year and never had a
float switch fail.
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.tpl?fno=400&group=327
Paul
mind hearing about it in case there is something I can look out for.
In the meantime, the company that makes the tank gauges that everyone seems
to like are also working on a float switch with no moving parts. Due to be
released in Feb. 2004 I think it looks interesting.
http://www.snake-river.org/Products.asp?ID=3
(scroll to the very bottom of the page, it's the last entry)
"Peggie Hall" <peg...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3F956B55...@nospam.com...
John
Try this link, http://www.borelmfg.com/products_sentinel.htm
They sell a 12 or 24V adjustable delay device.
Steve
wire or wire entery into the float it's self.
Sometimes the wire fails inside the insulation, leaving an open circuit and
other time the insulation fails and water gets inside.
This is from a dozen boats over the last 25 years. That seems to be when
their quality began to deteriorate and their attitude along with it.
I don't remember how much earlier Rule came about but I seem to remember
they did have reliable and well made equipment in the '60s/early '70s..
Of course before that, everyone had a manual bilge pump and we never worried
about bad switches. Oh! that's right, everyone still has a manual bilge
pump, just in case the Rule burns out. Hmmmm!
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Matti K.
http://www.penguineng.com/wwitch/wwitch.htm
Erik the Bold
"Gary Warner" <jabad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bn3o7a$rie20$1...@ID-149710.news.uni-berlin.de...
Have used on offshore race boat since 1996 with only failure being the
stupid plastic strainers
Course, we're beatin' the s**t out of 'em too!
Horace Brownbag
>My experience with Rule standard float switches has been a failure of the
>wire or wire entery into the float it's self.
Exactly.
I've taken apart a few of these buggers and sometimes the float itself
leaks, and the internals have shorted.
I think they need to improve the quality of both the seams, and the
insulation.
Lew Hodgett
and throw it in the trash.
That statement is based on being in the industrial level measurement
instrumentation business for many years.
We have a nice business replacing float switches when they fail which is
often.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
Paul
I'm curious as to why your bilge pump switches are failing. Is there a
common repeating problem? Maybe something I could look out for in my own
boat?
I have heard that the same people that make the tank gauge (that seems to
get good reviews here) are also making an electronic bilge pump switch with
no moving parts. According to their website it's due to be released in Feb.
next year. Here is the link, scroll to the very bottom of the page.
http://www.snake-river.org/Products.asp?ID=3
That doesn't help you today though, sorry about that.
Paul.
"Oliver Fleming" <ojfl...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:uC6lb.159803$bo1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Dazed and Confuzed
go to Radio Shack and get the "555 timer cookbook" you can make a delay
of as many seconds as you wish. it's cheap and easy.
--
Life lesson #48:
You can continue to puke long after you think you should be done......
Larry W4CSC
Larry W4CSC
3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?
Steve
Water intrusion into the wire insulation between the swith base and the
float. Another time the wire flexed until it developed an open. Either fault
has been common in my 25 years of electric bilge pump experience.
I just won't us a Rule switch any more..
Their pumps are great.
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
David Flew
switches - last I saw THEY had a MTBF of 12 months. You must admit that the
cast bronze type float switches with magnets actuating mercury switches in a
separate sealed bronze housing last a little while .... But I'd rather
spend the money on a pressure transmitter and use software to turn things on
and off.
But this does nothing for our problems with bilges in wooden boats, where we
have to contend with salt water, pitch roll and waves, and expect absolute
reliability. You would think the bilge pump would be the item to fail, and
the switch the easy part!
The last switch failure I had actually caused the leak - insulation failure
on the hot wire, electrolysis and lost the copper nails in what I think is
called the keelson cover strip. Under the engine where it's easy to find of
course.
I'd assume the majority of Rule's sales are to trailer boaters where switch
failure is irrelevant. So where to from here? Do we throw out a challenge
to the rec boats electronics guys to come up with a solid state solution, or
do we just put up with the problem?
As a suggestion, we need something which is 12V DC powered, minimal current
draw, uses conductivity between well spaced electrodes, AC to the electrodes
to prevent corrosion, time delay on and off, totally impervious to water,
protected from short circuit, reverse polarity, excess load, can be home
built, cheap ...
I can dream about the specs, I could build it from a kit, but I would not
have a clue where to start for a design.
Or we can just keep on putting up with the crap in the boat shops.
DF
Sorry about the cross-post, but I can't figure out how to turn it off.
DF
"Lew Hodgett" <lewho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%yglb.190$wc3...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Brian Runyard
internally
Mine have failed, nothing to do with muck in the bilge, have failed
internally
> that cause a float switch to stick and burn out would extend their lives
considerably.
Float switch sticking might cause the pump to burn out not the switch.
Larry W4CSC
out of reach. It's gonna be a pain in the ass to change when it
happens. The AC and all the sinks dump into the bilge on this boat so
everything goes through the bilge. It's great for ocean cruising but
I'm sure it's hard on bilge pump systems.
I DID change the switching arrangement of the stupid Rule control
panel. Idiots.....bilge pumps should NEVER have an OFF position!
There is an alarm float switch, same as the pump switch, further up
the bilge wall on a nice little mounting platform from the factory.
It was hooked to a beeper in the galley. I suppose French boaters
must always have someone aboard to hear it. Lionheart sits alone in
its marina, so I added a Radio Shack alarm siren up on the radar mast
by the new deck hailer horn. Noone will sleep while Lionheart sinks,
I can assure you.
The alarm floatswitch wasn't hooked to the main bilge pump, which I
also found strange. I added a fuse to the float switch circuit that
will blow if the pump is locked and power is applied to it from the
alarm switch. The pump now comes on when the alarm float wakes up the
neighborhood, too, in case the primary floatswitch fails. The alarm
and pump circuits were also rewired off the main breaker panel onto
separate circuits straight to the house battery monsters. This gives
us redundant power sources to pump the bilges noone can turn off
without a lot of trouble.
Amel also provides a massive manually-switched bilge pump from its own
breaker on the main panel. I'm not sure how much it will pump, but
there'd have to be a BIG hole in the hull before it couldn't keep up.
It's more like a firepump! The step down into the main cabin also has
a slot into it to put the big handle to the manual pump under the
step. God it stunk when I was pumping the stagnant water out of the
manual pump. P-U! Noone ever thinks to pump out the manual pump
every month or so with some "fresh" bilge water when cleaning the
bilges, I guess.....(d^:)
Paul
> everything goes through the bilge. It's great for ocean cruising but
> I'm sure it's hard on bilge pump systems.
Is this a normal/common setup, dumping sinks into the bilge? It sure sounds
pretty gross, why not just dump overboard through the hull?
> 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
> gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
> conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?
I don't get the point about the transponders.
Vito
>
> Of course before that, everyone had a manual bilge pump and we never worried
> about bad switches. Oh! that's right, everyone still has a manual bilge
> pump, just in case the Rule burns out. Hmmmm!
Lacking experience I rely on what the surveyor said while inspecting my
boat. "If water begins to flood onto your boat you'll drown. The manual
pump allows you to die of a heart attack instead."
Steve
Must stink like hell, all that food was and soap scum in the bilge.
Steve
Paul
"Vito" <vi...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3F968037...@crosslink.net...
Larry W4CSC
>> happens. The AC and all the sinks dump into the bilge on this boat so
>> everything goes through the bilge. It's great for ocean cruising but
>> I'm sure it's hard on bilge pump systems.
>
>Is this a normal/common setup, dumping sinks into the bilge? It sure sounds
>pretty gross, why not just dump overboard through the hull?
I believe the logic in dumping it into the bilge is to prevent high
seas from backing up into the sink, which seems reasonable in an ocean
cruiser like this. Actually, I don't see the "gross" part of it,
after seeing it working. We've dumped lots of dishwater into the
bilge and the only thing it seems to do is CLEAN the bilge! The big
Rule pump seems to pump the solids overboard just fine that make it
through the sink strainer and they are all suspended in Dawn
dishwashing liquid which keeps cleaning off the bilge bulkheads way
down there, too. Running Dawn into the bilge with the dishwater seems
to dissolve the oil film like it does off the dishes.
This boat is "different" than others I've been connected with. For
instance, there are TWO watertight bulkheads forward. One is the
forward bulkhead of the V-berth which is back from the bow about 4'.
If that's breached, you simply close the watertight door which seals
up the forward bulkhead of the main salon (flooding the head which is
another issue I suppose but beats sinking by a long shot.) The drain
to the shower/head sink has a valve on it that also closes, sealing
off the flooded compartment. The hatch has a big rubber seal and a
locking device to keep it closed that goes through the door handle on
the aft side. The boat is still supposed to be usable with the
forward compartments flooded. Another watertight bulkhead is the aft
cabin's after bulkhead, a couple of feet from the stern. The shaft
goes through the hull forward of the aft cabin so this bulkhead would
protect from a stern collision. The whole bilge from stem to stern
has huge stringers heavily glassed in. All the glass in the boat is
way heavy for heavy seas. Just drilling a hole in the fiberglass helm
is a chore! It's 2" thick in places. I also don't think there are
cores because anyplace where the interior was peeled back you could
see the hull and deck were translucent with sunlight pouring through.
Solid fiberglass so thick?.....
Of course, this makes the boat SLOW because of its immense
weight.....It's no racer.
Larry W4CSC
Larry W4CSC
>
>Must stink like hell, all that food was and soap scum in the bilge.
>
>Steve
>
>
What soap scum? What do you wash dishes in? Dawn, or any modern
liquid dish soap leaves no film whatsoever. Dawn also "moves grease
(and diesel fuel and lube oil) out of your way". Washing the dishes
washes the bilges, too. It doesn't stink at all because it flushes
right into the big pump. The pump, by the way is about 4 FEET down in
the full keel,which I suppose also has something to do with it. Half
the keel is this deep bilge. The other half of the keel is a 200
gallon fresh water tank! Sailing on it is SO pleasurable when there's
PLENTY of fresh water aboard for showers....(c;
Paul
morning draining a half-empty beer can or coke can or the remnants of cold
coffee from the pot. Just seems ... I don't know, weird to think it's going
into the bilge. Of course you chase it with water so I suppose it could
actually keep the bilge cleaner.
What kind of boat is it? Do you have pics online somewhere I can peek at?
You never answered my question about the transponder.
"Larry W4CSC" <nos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3f96a17b....@news.knology.net...
Lew Hodgett
"David Flew" writes:
> C'mon Lew, float switches are not that bad.
Matter of fact, they are.
>Compare then with pressure
> switches - last I saw THEY had a MTBF of 12 months.
Must be some kind of consumer grade garbarge, not industrial grade
hydrostatic transducers which have an entry level of about $1,500-$2,000.
>You must admit that the
> cast bronze type float switches with magnets actuating mercury switches in
a
> separate sealed bronze housing last a little while ....
Questionable.
>But I'd rather
> spend the money on a pressure transmitter and use software to turn things
on
> and off.
Good luck.
> But this does nothing for our problems with bilges in wooden boats, where
we
> have to contend with salt water, pitch roll and waves, and expect absolute
> reliability. You would think the bilge pump would be the item to fail,
and
> the switch the easy part!
> The last switch failure I had actually caused the leak - insulation
failure
> on the hot wire, electrolysis and lost the copper nails in what I think is
> called the keelson cover strip. Under the engine where it's easy to find
of
> course.
> I'd assume the majority of Rule's sales are to trailer boaters where
switch
> failure is irrelevant. So where to from here? Do we throw out a
challenge
> to the rec boats electronics guys to come up with a solid state solution,
or
> do we just put up with the problem?
Problem is solved, it just takes money, about $500-$700 of it which is why
low cost float switches still exist.
Keith
fuel leak. You don't want to be pumping that out into the water, do you?
Yea, there's a need to have an "off" position, or at least a breaker where
you can turn them off.
"Larry W4CSC" <nos...@home.com> wrote in message Idiots.....bilge pumps
Rick
>>Must stink like hell, all that food was and soap scum in the bilge.
> It doesn't stink at all because it flushes
> right into the big pump.
> God it stunk ... P-U!
> 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
> gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
> conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?
Paul wrote:
> I don't get the point about the transponders.
> You never answered my question about the transponder.
Don't hold your breath waiting for one ...
Most turbine powered aircraft are fitted with transponders so that is
like saying running lights or control surfaces are part of the problem.
Larry, look up transponder, R-12, kerosene, then look up
"non sequitur."
And then add another layer of tinfoil to your helmet.
Rick
Dan Best
with them. So that 3600 is the minimum # of planes up there. An unknown
number w/out transponders are also up there adding their exhaust to the mix.
--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG
Paul
Although my next question will be whether jet exhaust contributes to ozone
depletion. Anyone know?
I guess we've left the bilge pump switch far behind ...
"Dan Best" <d...@dbhome.org> wrote in message
news:clBlb.34280$dk4.9...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> I think his point re: the transponders is they we can count the planes
> with them. So that 3600 is the minimum # of planes up there. An unknown
> number w/out transponders are also up there adding their exhaust to the
mix.
Larry W4CSC
>Hmm, I guess I never really thought of it. But I think of stuff like in the
>morning draining a half-empty beer can or coke can or the remnants of cold
>coffee from the pot. Just seems ... I don't know, weird to think it's going
>into the bilge. Of course you chase it with water so I suppose it could
>actually keep the bilge cleaner.
>
>What kind of boat is it? Do you have pics online somewhere I can peek at?
French-made Amel Sharki 41. Email me at organs at myrealbox dot com
and I'll give you a username and password to get on my FTP server
where all the pictures are...... Only an idiot would post anything to
usenet...(c;
>
>You never answered my question about the transponder.
>
Oops...sorry. I'll go look it up and send another message about it.
Larry W4CSC
are used to COUNT the planes for the news reports.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:28:03 GMT, Rick <woo...@dearthlink.nyet>
wrote:
Larry W4CSC
Larry W4CSC
<klREMOV...@airmail.net> wrote:
>What if a fuel tank ruptured, filling your bilge with diesel. Or a major
>fuel leak. You don't want to be pumping that out into the water, do you?
>Yea, there's a need to have an "off" position, or at least a breaker where
>you can turn them off.
No, I want to pump it all OVERBOARD BEFORE THE DAMNED THING EXPLODES!!
SCREW THE ENVIRONMENT when I'm burning to death!
ME FIRST.....especially out of sight of LAND!!
(Why do I have this picture of a greenie knee deep in burning diesel
fuel worrying about getting any of it in the water?).......(c;
You guys REALLY need to spend some time on a COMMERCIAL SHIP. 100
gallons of diesel fuel pumped overboard is like a teaspoon in a lake.
They pump more than you store overboard just STARTING IT!
Larry W4CSC
>> 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
>> gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
>> conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?
>
>I don't get the point about the transponders.
>
Oh, I guess you didn't read my other post where I explained that the
data of the number of planes came off one of the cable news reports
they give in the mornings about how many airplanes are in the air at
the time of the report. That number is compiled from FAA's computer
that keeps track of the beacon transponders. That's why.
The other day it was over 4900 planes.....My gallons/hour estimate is
real conservative.
Did you notice how CLEAN the air got a couple of days after 9/11/2001
when they were all grounded? The air over SC actually turned BLUE
SKIES, something we rarely see. Sunset here is a purple/orange haze
after a day when the sky is mostly a white haze. When the planes were
all grounded, the sky turned a beautiful blue, like it does way out to
sea.
Coincidence? I think NOT.
Larry W4CSC
Cardinal Bill
>You guys REALLY need to spend some time on a COMMERCIAL SHIP. 100
>gallons of diesel fuel pumped overboard is like a teaspoon in a lake.
>They pump more than you store overboard just STARTING IT!
>
Hehehe....The second ship I was on in the USN used
JP-4/5/somethingorother (hey, I was in Electronics Shop). We tanked up
in Newport and beatfeet to Gitmo in early, early spring.
Got there and we were missing something like 25,000 gallons of gas (I
can't recall the number other than it was very, very, large. Seems like
they forgot to consider expansion when the ambient water temperature
went up. All of it was vented over the side.
--
The course of true anything never does run smooth.
-- Samuel Butler
Gould 0738
>gallons of diesel fuel pumped overboard is like a teaspoon in a lake.
>They pump more than you store overboard just STARTING IT!
>
>
>
>Larry W4CSC
>
>3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
>gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
>conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?
One small problemo with the comparison:
A commercial ship or a warship is involved in essential activities. Even *if*
they pollute 1000 times as much as a recreational boater, it's only because
steps have been taken to reduce to that from 10,000 times.
If we all decide that it's OK to pollute the water as long as it's less than a
containership or an aircraft carrier pollutes,
we'll be boating in one hell of a filthy soup in short order.
Because our recreational boating is an "optional" exercise, undertaken on
public waterways, we should try to leave the smallest possible dung pile in our
wake.
That doesn't mean we all need to take up sailing, IMO, but we should try to see
that whatever configuration we do enjoy is operating cleanly and efficiently
within the limitations of its design.
Oliver Fleming
We are getting waaaaaaaaay off my original request here.
Everything from rubbish Rule to ozone depletion.
I just require a simple answer to a simple question.
Somebody suggested a simple RC delay relay. What is that? I
can't find one.
Cheers
Oliver Fleming
"Oliver Fleming" <ojfl...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:uC6lb.159803$bo1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Lew Hodgett
"Oliver Fleming" writes:
> I just require a simple answer to a simple question.
I will give you a very simple and very reliable bilge pump control system.
Get an alarm device such as a SonAlert, something that provides about an
80-90 dB sound level and makes the most obnoxious sound you have ever heard.
Wire said device in parallel with the bilge pump motor.
Everytime you turn the pump on you will have to listen to that alarm.
Trust me, you will use the pump as required, but judiciously.
It works wonderfully. Used it for over 10 years on my last boat. No
replacements parts were ever req'd.
Rick
>
> You guys REALLY need to spend some time on a COMMERCIAL SHIP. 100
> gallons of diesel fuel pumped overboard is like a teaspoon in a lake.
> They pump more than you store overboard just STARTING IT!
With that approach you would last about 2 minutes on board a commercial
vessel.
As a chief engineer steam and motor any horsepower who currently makes a
living sailing deep sea I can tell you very clearly that the statement
you made above is unadulterated BS of the most absurd type.
I don't know where you ever got such a stupid idea but I would thank you
to stop posting that kind of ignorant nonsense as if you had a clue
about it.
Geez, what a bunch of crap. We don't even put rainwater over the side of
a tanker alongside these days and we never pump bilges overboard except
through a 15 ppm separator and then only outside 12 miles.
File that along with your transponder nonsense ... I doubt if there is a
single turbine powered aircraft in the US fleet that is NOT equipped
with a transponder so the idea of them as a means of counting is BS as well.
Rick
Larry W4CSC
you bet your ass it'll be pumped OVERBOARD at the first
opportunity.....right in front of the damned CG cutter if he's in the
way!.....
Sue me later.......I'll still be alive to sue!....(c;
Larry W4CSC
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:59:29 GMT, Rick <woo...@dearthlink.nyet>
wrote:
Brian Whatcott
2) ask for a slow release 12 volt coil DPDT delay relay
and compatible base with contacts rated for 10 amp DC
3) pay
4) install
5) adjust for desired delayed off
(typically in range 1-10 seconds.)
Was this simple enough?
:-)
Brian W
Calif Bill
"Brian Whatcott" <bet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mlkepvgab7d3iqr2q...@4ax.com...
Try Granger or www.digikey.com
Oliver Fleming
Think I got it. Thanks to
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Ball rolling up and down a tube.
Just set up a tube (Plastic) with a roller inside (lead ball
sinker)
Set it so the "float side" is just slightly heavier when the ball
is on the "up" side.
When the ball is on the "up" side the ball rolls to that end. The
mercury switch kicks in. When the water level drops the ball
(reluctantly) drop to the low end (giving a suitable time delay)
and kicks out the mercury switch. Now ready for the next cycle.
I have had a bit of an experiment with this and am encouraged
by the results.
It also reconciles with my KISS philosphiloy.
Thanks for everybody's contributions.
Rick
> How big is the holding tank?.....(c;
> No, I want to pump it all OVERBOARD BEFORE
> THE DAMNED THING EXPLODES!!
Care to describe the mechanism of the explosion you fear so much?
A bilge full of diesel is not a life threatening emergency and if you
pumped it over the side in an ignorant panic it would be labeled an
intentional discharge and you would be fined and jailed. Stupidity is
not a defense in a pollution case.
If you actually have the bilge pumps on your sugar daddy's boat wired so
that they cannot be switched off I hope you are well insured. If he
knows about it and accepts the condition he may share a cell with you.
If you worked for me and did something that stupid you would find
yourself down the dock so fast your shadow would display a color shift.
Wiring the pumps so they cannot be turned off is stupid, dangerous, and
ignorant. IF you intentionally wired them that way as you seem to state
then you are too dangerous and stupid to be trusted aboard a boat.
> ME FIRST.....especially out of sight of LAND!!
Tell that to the court.
> (Why do I have this picture of a greenie knee deep
> in burning diesel fuel worrying about getting any of
> it in the water?).......(c;
Because you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about.
> You guys REALLY need to spend some time on a COMMERCIAL SHIP.
It is painfully obvious YOU never have. If you visited one you were
totally blind as to what you saw because you are unable to understand
the vessel and its operation.
> 100 gallons of diesel fuel pumped overboard is like a teaspoon
> in a lake.
I see you haven't bothered to look up "non sequitur."
> They pump more than you store overboard just STARTING IT!
This is absolute nonsense and ignorance. Why on Earth would you post
something like that? Where did you ever get such an idea? If you just
made it up out of some fantasy why did you post something like that?
This type of statement really shows that you are an uninformed loon,
Larry, a dangerous loon if anyone lets you touch anything on a boat, and
you endanger others who might believe the garbage you write.
Rick
Rick
> A commercial ship or a warship is involved in essential activities. Even *if*
> they pollute 1000 times as much as a recreational boater, it's only because
> steps have been taken to reduce to that from 10,000 times.
Won't speak for waships because I don't work on them but as far as
freighters, containerships, and tankers are concerned we discharge far
less than the average Bayliner.
Gray funnel liners (government owned, civilian crewed, ships of the
Ready Reserve Fleet and Military Sealift Command) are "publicly owned
vessels" and as such are, like warships, technically exempt from the
laws and requirements imposed on civil shipping but in fact follow
exactly the same practices as other US flagged civil shipping. Just
because we might not get fined or jailed for pollution doesn't mean we
pollute ...
We do not pump bilges overboard within 12 miles of the coast, all bilge
water is passed through a 15 ppm oily water separator or held for
discharge ashore to a treatment facility.
On tankers we do not even let rainwater go over the side in a loading or
discharge port, along with bilge water it is collected in a slop tank
and discharged ashore.
A modern commercial vessel is cleaner than practically any pleasure
vessel afloat. There are more oil slicks passing through my marina in a
week than the Port of Seattle freight and oil terminals see in years.
Rick
Joe Here
<ojfl...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Hi Fellas,
> Think I got it. Thanks to
>
>Steve
>s/v Good Intentions
>
>Ball rolling up and down a tube.
>
>Just set up a tube (Plastic) with a roller inside (lead ball
>sinker)
>
>Set it so the "float side" is just slightly heavier when the ball
>is on the "up" side.
>
>When the ball is on the "up" side the ball rolls to that end. The
>mercury switch kicks in. When the water level drops the ball
>(reluctantly) drop to the low end (giving a suitable time delay)
>and kicks out the mercury switch. Now ready for the next cycle.
> I have had a bit of an experiment with this and am encouraged
>by the results.
>It also reconciles with my KISS philosphiloy.
>
>Thanks for everybody's contributions.
>
>Cheers
>Oliver Fleming
Have you looked at magnetic switches, the type used on window
and door house alarms? I seems it would be easier to affix the switch
and float the magnet on a hinge? The switches are usually glass
sealed.
Steven Shelikoff
>Have you looked at magnetic switches, the type used on window
>and door house alarms? I seems it would be easier to affix the switch
>and float the magnet on a hinge? The switches are usually glass
>sealed.
Just check the current rating on those reed switches. They might not
last long switching on and off a high capacity bilge pump instead of an
alarm sensor circuit.
Steve
Larry Demers
the contact rating fairly beefy because of the reverse EMF from the motor
winding, when that DC motor is turned off..will generate fairly healthy
voltage and it will arc while the contacts are opening.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Richard Lane
switch, and a 2sec delay. I had replaced the original Rule Superswitch
in June since it had failed sometime last winter but one of the flexible
mercury switch wires failed in September. Since I leave my boat
unattended November to May such failure is unacceptable so I went for
the Piranha.
Dick, NS26 Swoose
K Smith
> Hi,
> I am sure this has been covered before but I cannot find it
> on google.
>
> However I am sick of replacing bilge pump switches. ( I have a
> shed full of floats!)
>
> I thought to seal a mercury switch and put it on the float when
> the float goes up the pump comes on (through a good relay)
>
> However the switch comes on the pump runs for a very short time
> and just clicks on and off driving the relay crazy.
> I need to have a delay that will keep the relay pulled in say
> 5 to 10 seconds before dropping out and resetting.
> Anyone have an idea or circuit that will do this for me.
> Thanks
> Oliver Fleming
>
>
Hope you'll excuse the paste from a previous post;
"R. Kelly" wrote:
>
> Thinking about installing a Bilge-Buddy electronic sensor to replace
my Rule
> flapper in the rear bilge. Have any users of this product had issues? I
> heard they are not dependable.
> BK
Most of the bilge pump switches have trouble where the wiring
enters the switch itself. The rule arm ones are about as safe proof
as possible (it's just a bent placky tube with mercury) but again
it's where the wires enter the tube that fails.
The best fix is to glue (any construction adhesive is OK) a piece
of poly foam (the core type, not cooler type because petrol will eat
it) onto the rule arm then mount it higher in the bilge so the
switch itself never gets wet. You can carve the shape of the foam so
the pump triggers on or off at whatever levels you like.
K
Derek.Moody
<URL:mailto:nos...@home.com> wrote:
> If the damned bilge is full of diesel fuel or anything that can burn,
> you bet your ass it'll be pumped OVERBOARD at the first
> opportunity.....right in front of the damned CG cutter if he's in the
> way!.....
There's the lemming instinct.
> Sue me later.......I'll still be alive to sue!....(c;
Maybe not.
Diesel isn't a significant flash risk so it may as well stay in the bilge
until you scavenge it and return the bulk to the fuel tank through a
filter/seperator.
Almost anything else flammable in the bilge will carry a flash risk. The
easy way to trigger an explosion is to run an electric pump with a
slow-moving switch that will arc nicely as the circuit breaks. At this
point the vessel bursts into flame and as you jump over the side and the
lifejacket brings you to the surface you discover you are swimming in the
centre of a large pool of freshly discharged fuel...
Clear inflammables from the bilge with a manual pump. That includes
heavier-than-air gasses - eg the leaking regulator on the lpg cylinder.
Cheerio,
--
>> derek...@clara.net
Steven Shelikoff
wrote:
>Use the switch to trigger a pilot relay, which in turn runs the pump. Make
>the contact rating fairly beefy because of the reverse EMF from the motor
>winding, when that DC motor is turned off..will generate fairly healthy
>voltage and it will arc while the contacts are opening.
You can do that, but that adds another level of complexity and
probability of failure. Relays fail, especially in a marine
environment.
Steve
Vito
>
> Larry W4CSC wrote:
>
>
The probability of a bilge full of diesel exploding is indeed
vanishingly small, but so is the probability of having a bilge full of
diesel to begin with and the sum of the latter plus the probability of
getting caught pumping it out is perforce even smaller.
>
> If you actually have the bilge pumps on your sugar daddy's boat wired so
> that they cannot be switched off I hope you are well insured. ....
My insurance would NOT cover flooding if the bilge pump wasn't powered
directly from a battery via the float switch. There is a switch on the
power panel that bypasses the float switch to force the pump on but the
only way to shut the pump off if the bilge flooded is to take the wire
off the battery - which'd take only seconds.
Have y'all finished your precautions against the Yellowstone Caldera
exploding? (c:
Del Cecchi
"Rick" <woo...@dearthlink.nyet> wrote in message
news:UFVlb.3073$wc3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
zebra mussels get into the great lakes by immaculate conception? Why are
the shippers resisting flushing ballast tanks with salt water en route?
del cecchi
Rick
>
> My insurance would NOT cover flooding if the bilge pump wasn't powered
> directly from a battery via the float switch. There is a switch on the
> power panel that bypasses the float switch to force the pump on but the
> only way to shut the pump off if the bilge flooded is to take the wire
> off the battery - which'd take only seconds.
It is supposed to be powered from the battery through a breaker via a
manual/auto switch. The object of the regulation is to ensure that the
battery switch will not disable the bilge pump.
The breaker or a switch should be readily available so as to interrupt
power to the bilge pump in the event of accidental discharge of fuel or oil.
Not everyone can reach their batteries within seconds, much less
disconnect the bilge pump supply.
Think about it for a moment. If fuel or oil is being pumped over the
side then there is no water in the bilge and that is a good indication
that there is no flooding involved. This is not an emergency that calls
for intentionally polluting a waterway.
>Have y'all finished your precautions against the Yellowstone Caldera
>exploding?
You'll have to ask Larry.
Rick
Rick
> Of course ballast tanks are a different thing, or did those round gobies and
> zebra mussels get into the great lakes by immaculate conception? Why are
> the shippers resisting flushing ballast tanks with salt water en route?
Have you considered that the reason ballast exchange (BWE)laws now exist
is because traditional practices were discovered to be the source of
those zebra mussels and gobies?
There is little "resistance" to ballast water exchange. It has been
required by the International Maritime Organization since 1997.
There are several options under consideration to replace BWE since for
many ships exchanging ballast water in mid ocean is akin to a sailboat
exchanging its keel in the same conditions. Ballast is onboard to ensure
the ship's stability and removing it places the ship in a very
precarious state in less than ideal sea and weather conditions. It is a
time consuming practice and some runs do not provide enough time in mid
ocean, if the ship even reaches mid ocean, to completely exchange all
ballast.
There are several other systems under development to sterilize ballast
water. Ballast water is tested for exotics and to ensure that ballast
exchange has been conducted. A Google search will enlighten you with
many documents concerning this issue. But like any other activity, there
are those who will falsify documents, take shortcuts or evade the
regulations, they are not representative of the industry any more than
the yachtie who pumps his holding tank into the channel or pumps his oil
bilge into the marina at night is representative of the entire yachting
community.
Rick
Vito
>
> Think about it for a moment. If fuel or oil is being pumped over the
> side then there is no water in the bilge and that is a good indication
I have thot about it at length, and apparently so has my insurer. "IF"
it the key. My fuel tank is below the motor so the only way fuel could
get into the bilge unnoticed is for the tank to crack while the boat sat
unattended. It is far more likely that a shaft seal or thru-hull or
hatch might leak. So, if there were a switch, it'd be left on *all* the
time anyway. My batteries are mounted inches above the bilge trough so
the wires to the float switch and thence to the pumps are only 18" long.
Of course there are people who'd run a wire 12+ ft to a CB then back to
the float switch in order to feel safer but I'm not quite that silly
yet.
>
> >Have y'all finished your precautions against the Yellowstone Caldera exploding?
>
Point is that the caldera is 1000s of times more likely to kill us all
than my setup is to pump fuel overboard, yet y'all (plural) are more
worried about the latter than the former. Makes less sense than going to
church every Sunday.
Enjoy the weekend ...
Rick
> Of course there are people who'd run a wire 12+ ft to a CB then back to
> the float switch in order to feel safer but I'm not quite that silly
> yet.
Well, Vito, not everyone's boat is just like yours. Many people have
boats with bilges that require pumping fairly regularly. These people
have boats that sometimes have oil in the bilges from any number of
sources including fuel leaks, hydraulic leaks, spills, overflows, pick a
source, any one is a common if infrequent occurrence. These boats
often have multiple battery banks that feed breaker panels which are the
source of power to bilge pumps and other devices. While you may have
only one battery and can reach it in seconds not everyone can. Your
installation does not apply to all or perhaps even most boaters.
If there is no one aboard to see the oil go overboard then it is
academic whether there is a switch to turn the pump off or not. If
someone is aboard then that person may see the oil and do something to
reduce the quantity pumped overboard. It is that simple.
> Point is that the caldera is 1000s of times more likely to kill us all
> than my setup is to pump fuel overboard, yet y'all (plural) are more
> worried about the latter than the former. Makes less sense than going to
> church every Sunday.
Quite frankly I worry more about my bilge overboard than I do your
caldera. If your caldera blew up it would not have nearly the same
impact on me as a few tablespoons of oil in the water through my bilge
pump. When I pump bilges I monitor the discharge and am ready to switch
the pump off at the first indication of a sheen. I also have an oil
content monitor which will detect oil in concentrations greater than
15ppm and shut the pump off but I still watch the overboard when I am
onboard. It is just good practice, it is not paranoia.
Rick
Del Cecchi
"Rick" <woo...@dearthlink.nyet> wrote in message
> Del Cecchi wrote:
>
> > Of course ballast tanks are a different thing, or did those round gobies
and
> > zebra mussels get into the great lakes by immaculate conception? Why
are
> > the shippers resisting flushing ballast tanks with salt water en route?
>
> Have you considered that the reason ballast exchange (BWE)laws now exist
> is because traditional practices were discovered to be the source of
> those zebra mussels and gobies?
>
> There is little "resistance" to ballast water exchange. It has been
> required by the International Maritime Organization since 1997.
>
I forgot this one, just found. I guess your systems aren't working so well
Cercopagis pengoi is the latest exotic crustacean to invade the Great Lakes.
This predatory cladoceran was first identified by Canadian scientists in
early August of 1998, and was reported via Internet by Dr. Hugh MacIsaac at
the end of August . Cercopagis is indigenous to the Caspian, Azov, and Aral
seas (Rivier 1998), and was reported to have invaded the Baltic Sea in 1992
(Ojaveer & Lumberg 1995, Ojaveer 1997).
Del Cecchi
"Rick" <woo...@dearthlink.nyet> wrote in message
goby in 90. And in 97 something was finally done. Hot damn. Way to react
quickly there. And I don't care if you swap the bilge water in mid ocean or
5 miles off the beach. If there isn't time then slow down.
del cecchi
Rick
>And I don't care if you swap the bilge water in mid ocean or
> 5 miles off the beach.
It is obvious you don't really care and can't be bothered to research
the efforts underway to reduce the problem. Rather than waste my time
arguing with you I will let your statement speak for itself, it clearly
shows the level of your understanding.
If you feel the need to lash out in a fit of ignorant rage go down to
the docks and scream at the nearest ship.
Rick
Del Cecchi
"Rick" <woo...@dearthlink.nyet> wrote in message
Oh you are so noble. Sorry to disturb your existence with my little list of
exotic invaders brought to the great lakes by pristine, environmentally
concerned international shipping industry.
I bet they are taking these actions to clean their ballast out of sheer
altruistic motives.
del
>
Larry W4CSC
with have MERCURY SWITCHES, which are explosion proof!
Larry W4CSC
"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"
Karin Conover-Lewis
dangerous mercury is!!?? ;-)
--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at gte dot net (old -- don't use)
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net (new)
"Larry W4CSC" <nos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3f99ac3b...@news.knology.net...
Trond Solem
Jokes aside. Mercury switches are more common than you might think. It is in
fact the most commonly used type of swich used for on-off function based on
tilt angle. It is encapsulated, so it won't poison you or the waterways
unless you decides to smash it with a large hammer.
Trond.
"Karin Conover-Lewis" <spam...@nopam.com> wrote in message
news:AuudnZQ5fNm...@centurytel.net...
Larry Demers
mechanical water level detectors in industry are large mercury switches in a
round float that resembles a boats bumper sort of. Even Honeywell thermostats
on the wall have mercury switches in them.
The only failure I ran into when using them was if the envelope leaked
air..the mercury would get a layer of oxide on it, which was non-conductive.
Then when the switch tilted, the mercury would surround the switches probes as
designed, but would not make electrical contact.
Larry DeMers
Ian Malcolm
NO WAY have they got the required current rating, also I would be
concerned about water penetration of the magnet and reed units if you use
off the shelf alarm parts.
The idea does have merit however and if 'bare' reed switches and magnets
were encapsulated in epoxy, that sorts out the water intrusion problem.
To solve the low current rating problem you would need to use a relay
rated for the pump stall current mounted high and dry, far from the bilge,
controlled by the reed switch and add a diode accross the relay coil
(cathode positive, 1N4148 would be fine) to prevent arcing in the reed
switch. A suitable diode rated for the motor current connected across it,
cathode positive would also increase reliability by reducing arcing at the
relay contacts.
Some experimentation with the magnet strength and the seperation would be
required, but I see the posibility of using the magnet to provide
hysterisis in the switching action. (i.e. the switch turns off at a lower
level than that which turned it on)
The magnet is strongly attracted to a piece of mild steel when its really
close to it and the attraction gets much weaker rapildly as the distance
is increased. This could be used to hold the float up until it is nearly
out of the water before its weight can pull the magnet away fron the
switch assembly. Once its dropped, it cannot re-close untill more
bilgewater lifts it up again.
The difficulty would be putting enough mild steel in the reed switch
housing without interfering with the operation of the switch. If you use
2 pieces of steel, and dont put them near the middle of the glass reed
switch body, it should work ok.
Considerable experimentation and testing will be required to get a
reliable switch assembly suitable for use in a bilge.
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Uffa Fox designed, All varnished hot moulded
wooden racing dinghy circa. 1961
Dazed and Confuzed
and put a diode across the contacts (a big beefy diode) to control the back
EMF.
--
Life lesson #48:
You can continue to puke long after you think you should be done......
Dick Locke
wrote:
>Heck yes..they are in a lot of "Quiet Switches" in homes for instance. Most
>mechanical water level detectors in industry are large mercury switches in a
>round float that resembles a boats bumper sort of. Even Honeywell thermostats
>on the wall have mercury switches in them.
>
My father used to work for Honeywell and brought home balls of mercury
when I was a kid. I used to roll it around on the floor until it got
lost under the furniture.
That probably explains a lot. Either that or the X-ray shoe machines
that I put my head into and pressed the "on" button.
It's a wonder anyone survived childhood in the 50's....
Lew Hodgett
The bilge pump level switch in a boat is basically the same application as
required by a lift station in the waste water industry.
(You got it, there is raw sewage as well as a lot of other stuff like hair,
grease, oil, tree limbs, etc, at the bottom of a lift station.)
The industry has tried almost everything including mechanical floats which
die quickly but are cheap, bubblers which get plugged and fail or the
pressure switches fail, ultrasonics which are non contact and work well as
long as there is not a lot of foam from a soap discharge, or even
hydrostatic deep well transducers which often need to be protected.
Bottom line................
They all fail and some of these devices have a cost well in excess of
$1,500.00 USD.
A boat bilge is no different unless you are willing to spend about $2,500.00
USD for pulse radar like the US Navy does.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
Karin Conover-Lewis
high school, playing with mercury by passing it around hand to hand, dipping
pennies in it and watching them "turn into dimes," and any number of other
deadly activities. But now the authorities conduct house-to-house searches
of entire neighbourhoods in an effort to protect the sheeple from a bit of
mercury that's gone missing from a school. Thus my previous joke.
--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at gte dot net (old -- don't use)
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net (new)
"Dick Locke" <dlo...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:tuljpvon185sdo009...@4ax.com...
MIDEMETZ
PVC cap but it was used by a lot of the local shrimpers in their old wooden
boats ( read leak a lot ).
The switch is usually in the control top part. They recommended using a
smaller longer hose and mounted the switch high on the bulkhead.
Mine worked for a little over 5 years with out problems. ( Sold the boat ).
It would take a little experimenting but easy engulf to find the cap size.
They heater a brass hose barb and just screwed it in to the hole, I drilled &
taped it. It isn’t boat pretty but very useful.
For the delay the Radio Shack idea seems the best.
Mike.
*****************
Keith
You're right, I think it explains a lot. But it sure was fun to play with.
"Dick Locke" <dlo...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:tuljpvon185sdo009...@4ax.com...
Keith
and passed survey fine. The breakers allow me to turn them off if necessary.
"Vito" <vi...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3F993F63...@crosslink.net...
Keith
and love it. The only thing sticking down into the bilge is a little bell
shaped upside down "cup" with the hose leading up to the switch, a couple of
feet above. When the water rises, the pressure inside the switch triggers
the bilge pump.
"MIDEMETZ" <mide...@wmconnect.com> wrote in message
news:20031025091050...@mb-m07.wmconnect.com...
Derek.Moody
<URL:mailto:nos...@home.com> wrote:
> I don't know about your boat, but ALL the boats I have anything to do
> with have MERCURY SWITCHES, which are explosion proof!
They still spark at times even if it is contained. If your returns corrode
you may be running the whole at a sparking potential - and for longer as
you're short of current. Cables and connectors wear too and get kicked
and crimped during nearby maintenance which isn't done as well as you might
wish (or there wouldn't have been an oil leak in the first place). Things
do happen at sea, don't compound them.
Cheerio,
--
>> derek...@clara.net
Capt. Frank Hopkins
the charter boats. The way I understand it, the pump spins its impeller
and if it detects water, it keeps pumping. No external switch needed.
Have a look at the link below.
Capt. Frank
Brian Whatcott
hands while lighting the barbecue.
And I know I can breath nitrogen all day long, and nothing goes
amiss.
And I've made plenty of hydrogen, by electrolysis.
I am sure I've breathed more than a little of that.
But guess what: combine them, and I'm dead with a lungful or two
of the compound. It's called cyanide gas.
Mercury's like that. Neat: no problem. Combined, and it's a nasty
systemic poison.
How difficult is for people to understand that the
gov'mint isn't always on the stupid end of the argument?
Brian Whatcott Altus OK
Splitpair
switches the pull in distance is always closer to the switch than the drop
out distance. Raising the magnet could pull in the switch and holding to the
drop to distance could provide the answer.
SP
Splitpair
remodeled. One of the laborers found a bottle of mercury in a cabinet and
not knowing what it was or what to do with it decided being as its a liquid
just pour it down the toilet. He flushed and flushed dozens of times and
that blob of silver didn't move so he moved on. A few days later a city
building inspector noticed it and all H*** broke loose. The property owner
took the brunt of the cost with the owner and the prime contractor going
into bankruptcy.
SP
"Karin Conover-Lewis" <spam...@nopam.com> wrote in message
news:0JydnXXg97p...@centurytel.net...
Donald Phillips
> Hi,
> I am sure this has been covered before but I cannot find it
> on google.
>
> However I am sick of replacing bilge pump switches. ( I have a
> shed full of floats!)
>
> I thought to seal a mercury switch and put it on the float when
> the float goes up the pump comes on (through a good relay)
>
> However the switch comes on the pump runs for a very short time
> and just clicks on and off driving the relay crazy.
> I need to have a delay that will keep the relay pulled in say
> 5 to 10 seconds before dropping out and resetting.
> Anyone have an idea or circuit that will do this for me.
> Thanks
> Oliver Fleming
>
>
In industry, most of us use 3 floats in a tank. The lowest float turns
the pump OFF not on. The middle float turns the pump ON. The highest
float is an OSHIT to let people know something isn't working.
Donald
--
I'm building a Steel Robert's 434. You can sneak a peek if you wish by
clicking on me link below.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/donrayp/
'USA, Home of the best
politicians money can buy'
Paul E. Bennett
> NO WAY have they got the required current rating, also I would be
> concerned about water penetration of the magnet and reed units if you use
> off the shelf alarm parts.
> The idea does have merit however and if 'bare' reed switches and magnets
> were encapsulated in epoxy, that sorts out the water intrusion problem.
OK so far.
> To solve the low current rating problem you would need to use a relay
> rated for the pump stall current mounted high and dry, far from the bilge,
> controlled by the reed switch and add a diode accross the relay coil
> (cathode positive, 1N4148 would be fine) to prevent arcing in the reed
> switch.
I would go for a heavier diode than the 1N4148. Something more like a
1N4001 would be more suitable. In addition to the diode across the coil
also add a 100R resistor and 0.1uF capacitor (in series) in parallel
to the coil and diode. This will also reduce the switching interference
that can be caused.
> A suitable diode rated for the motor current connected across it,
> cathode positive would also increase reliability by reducing arcing at the
> relay contacts.
Better than a Diode here would be a VDR of a suitable rating for the
motor.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://p...@amleth.demon.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE......
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details.
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************
Brian D
it just plain makes it hard to believe they've got an ounce of sense once in
awhile, even when they do ...
Brian
--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass
"Brian Whatcott" <bet...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:pvilpv8f985ucl0ej...@4ax.com...
> [snip]
>
> How difficult is for people to understand that the
> gov'mint isn't always on the stupid end of the argument?
>
> [snip]
Jere Lull
>I don't know if mercury switches reduce the chance of spark or not - I
>suspect not.
>
>
A mercury switch in a sealed tube, all contained in a watertight (or so)
float seems pretty good to me. Frankly, I think corroded wires are more
likely to be a spark source.
When I was a kid, the tube was glass (but I suppose it could be plastic
these days). My dad (an EE) thought mercury switches were safer and put
in all he could. None of them have failed in 55 years, some of the
mechanical ones have.
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
Ian Malcolm
>
> x-no-archive:yes
> "Derek.Moody" <derek...@clara.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <3f99ac3b...@news.knology.net>, Larry W4CSC
> ><URL:mailto:nos...@home.com> wrote:
> >> I don't know about your boat, but ALL the boats I have anything to do
> >> with have MERCURY SWITCHES, which are explosion proof!
>
>
> A REAL explosion proof switch as used in industry is a very heavily
> built item with all the joints being jagged (cant think of the word
> now) - that is the space in the joint isn't in a straight line but
> goes around a couple of corners.
>
> The purpose of an explosion proof switch is NOT to reduce the spark
> inside the switch, but (if the flammable or explosive mixture gets
> into the switch) to contain the explosion that will result when the
> switch is turned on and a spark is generated. Thus the explosion will
> stay inside the switch and will not ignite the flammable vapor or gas
> outside of the switch.
>
> One definition is:
> >Explosion-Proof Switch – A UL listedswitch capable of withstanding an internal explosion of a specified gas without igniting surrounding gases.
>
> Sometimes explosion proof switches are also water proof or have other
> characteristics, but the term explosion proof does not mean that the
> switch won't produce a spark.
>
> In the same way a flammable cabinet is meant to contain flammable
> liquids so that if there is a fire inside the cabinet it won't spread
> to outside the cabinet and liquids spilled if the containers burst
> from heat will not leak outside the cabinet.
>
> I don't know if mercury switches reduce the chance of spark or not - I
> suspect not.
> >
> >you may be running the whole at a sparking potential - and for longer as
> >you're short of current. Cables and connectors wear too and get kicked
> >and crimped during nearby maintenance which isn't done as well as you might
> >wish (or there wouldn't have been an oil leak in the first place). Things
> >do happen at sea, don't compound them.
> >
> >Cheerio,
>
Since mercury switches are hermetically sealed to prevent the mercury
escaping as vapour, it should be impossible for any flamable vapour to get
into the switch, which usually consists of a glass capsule coated with a
tough plastic (sometimes steel with a ceramic seal). Reed switches also
totally enclose the contacts in a glass capsule. Unless the switch is
broken, it cant ignite vapours outside its capsule. The only risk is, if
there is a short circuit, and the switch closes on it, it may be blown to
bits, at which point I want to be ashore and not too near the edge of the
dock, if there is any gas in your bilge! An UL listed enclosure round the
switch capsule with labrynth seals as you describe would be a really good
idea. I wouldn't trust a bare capsule unless I had potted it in epoxy
with milled fibre filler.
The main disadvantage of a mercuary switch is it has to tilt to work which
means its in the float and the cable to it bends each time the float moves
so must eventually break. Also, if you have an aluminium hull, its a hole
waiting to happen.
Ian Pogson
hysteresis built in. Try their website.m
If you want to go the home-spun route look at Farnell, RS or CPC
catalogues - there are things like multiposition sliding float reed magnet
operated float switches but they are usually pretty light - current wise.
Also a few people also do stock level control relays (query voltage) which
will accept input from basic metal probes - earth - high level start - low
level stop. These probes need to be insulated from each other but they can
be any size and any conductive material.
My company makes off-the-shelf control circuit (for bigger mains operated
pumps) which can be 12VDC operated, will control your bilge pump (of any
size) and will provide LED and switched outputs for remote indication /
alarm purposes. I'm not trying to sell to the group. In fact we can't handle
one-offs as a rule but could make an exception if desperate.
"Oliver Fleming" <ojfl...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:uC6lb.159803$bo1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Brian Whatcott
("Paul E. Bennett") wrote:
>In article <3F989695...@freeserveNOSPAM.net> see, "Ian Malcolm" writes:
>
>///
>> To solve the low current rating problem you would need to use a relay
>> rated for the pump stall current mounted high and dry, far from the bilge,
>> controlled by the reed switch and add a diode accross the relay coil
>> (cathode positive, 1N4148 would be fine) to prevent arcing in the reed
>> switch.
>
>I would go for a heavier diode than the 1N4148. Something more like a
>1N4001 would be more suitable.///
1N4148 1 time surge 1 amp forward peak reverse volts 75V
1N4001 1 time surge 15+ amps peak reverse volts 50V
The one is slender on forward current, the other on reverse volts -
but a 1N4004 up would do the reverse volts spike nicely with
respectable one time forward surge current.
Brian W
Larry W4CSC
<spam...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Oh yea. A few years back I was working in a medical office that was being
>remodeled. One of the laborers found a bottle of mercury in a cabinet and
>not knowing what it was or what to do with it decided being as its a liquid
>just pour it down the toilet. He flushed and flushed dozens of times and
>that blob of silver didn't move so he moved on. A few days later a city
>building inspector noticed it and all H*** broke loose. The property owner
>took the brunt of the cost with the owner and the prime contractor going
>into bankruptcy.
>
>SP
>
When I was a little kid, my mother used to take me to the dentist,
regularly. The dentist used to pack my cavities with MERCURY amalgam,
which to this day breaks into my blood stream and causes havoc until I
have that tooth pulled, many years later. I've been poisoned by it
many times in my life.
When I left the dentists office, he would take a little ball of
MERCURY and put it in a pull-apart capsule to make a "Mexican Jumping
Bean" for me to play with after I left the office. I pulled these
apart and used the MERCURY to coat pennies and other little parts
which fascinated me. I was about 8-10 years old, making the dates
from 1954 to 1956......
Anyone else have Mercury fillings that drive them crazy from time to
time?
Dazed and Confuzed
or parallel 2 of them.
Horace Brownbag
<snip>
>Anyone else have Mercury fillings that drive them crazy from time to
>time?
Yeah, but it has nothing to do with amalgam or with fillings.....
Rick
>>Anyone else have Mercury fillings that drive them crazy from time to
>>time?
> Yeah, but it has nothing to do with amalgam or with fillings.....
That goes along with everything the National Institutes of Health says.
It seems that the amalgam thing is right up there with multiple chemical
sensitivity and a few of the other neuroses of that peculiar group of
people who cling to holistic cures and the dangers of distilled water
and fear of powerlines and green squirrels.
The theraputic value of the comic relief supplied by these whackos is
surely what prevents these ills in "normal" people.
Rick
Brian D
Brian
--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass
"Rick" <woo...@dearthlink.nyet> wrote in message
news:aC1nb.3617$Px2....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Steven Shelikoff
<bria...@advantagecomposites.comNS> wrote:
>Don't forget aluminum pans and ...ummmm, oh yeah, Alzheimer's.
>
How could I forget Alzheimer's?
Steve
Ian Malcolm
I just looked some numbers up in my old Maplin catalogue:
12V coil 16A rated relay: coil is 106 ohms
minature reed switch: max current 0.5 amp
I make that about 140mA coil current if the battery is boiling and there
is 15V on your nominal 12V supply. Looks like I am pushing things a bit
as the 1N4148 is only rated for 75ma continuous, but I think X 2 is
acceptable for a repetitive surge with such a slow repetition rate and
fairly low energy content. If you want it bulletproof 1N4002 (100V PIV 1A
If) or higher in the same series would be great.
You will note I never specced a diode for accross the pump other than to
say it should be rated for the motor current. Ideally it should be rated
for the STALL current, but I think that you'd get away with some
parallelled 1N5401 3 amp diodes for most pumps in common use. (Of course,
if you are running a fireboat pump, you'll be useing a contactor not a
relay, and I wouldnt expect any of the diodes I specced or the reed switch
to last longer than a marshmallow in a blast furnace.)
P.S. There IS NO reverse spike with the diode there as it shunts it. It
only has the battery voltage applied to it. I think my choice was pretty
conservative. I've got 100 V down as the PIV for 1N4148 and 1N5401 in the
old catalog I keep handy for speccing this sort of stuff, If you are
getting 100V spikes on your 12V bus, you've got other problems than
premature failure of bilge pump switches. (:-)
P.P.S. Thanks for the peer review. Appriciated!
David Flew
"Ian Pogson" <ian.p...@flushhouse.com> wrote in message
news:3f9c5feb$0$22354$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Cross posting isn't my normal behaviour, but I'll do it this time in the
hope that Rule may pick it up. It seems to me that we have better things to
do than re-design reliable ways of controlling bilge pumps. We are
discussing this because of common experience with failure of one brand of
bilge float switch. And the common point of failure seems to be the wiring.
Now the wiring is subject to pretty nasty environment ( i.e. bilges) but
it's at normal pressure and temperatures. Surely it's not that hard to fix
the root cause of the problem, which is the wiring. I'd rather pay 10% more
for the switch, or have to order it in specially and wait a week than have
to spend time and effort in developing a one off alternative.
David
( who has amalgam fillings, has coated pennies with mercury, and can't
remember what this altz..... thing is all about.)
DF
Brian Whatcott
<ab...@freeserveNOSPAM.net> wrote:
>P.S. There IS NO reverse spike with the diode there as it shunts it. It
>only has the battery voltage applied to it. I think my choice was pretty
>conservative. I've got 100 V down as the PIV for 1N4148 and 1N5401 in the
>old catalog I keep handy for speccing this sort of stuff, If you are
>getting 100V spikes on your 12V bus, you've got other problems than
>premature failure of bilge pump switches. (:-)
The back EMF spike on a diode is due to the device's finite turn on
time, so yes, there is a volt spike to be considered....
Brian Whatcott Altus OK