Fibreglass Over Wooden Hull?
rpo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
There seems to be a flurry of activity in these parts in upgrading the
hulls of wooden vessels. Has anyone had any experience with fibreglass
over wood hulls. Does this lessen the maintenance and cost ($$$) associated
with wooden hulls? How do these hulls compare to all fibreglass hulls?
Regor
Martin Schoon AR/RH
Fiberglass? Are we talking polyester or epoxy?
Anyway, even if they are using epoxy it is virtually impossible to seal an
existing structure so the wood will expand and contract with changes in moisture
and eventually the fiberglass and the wood will 'divorce'. With polyester this
will be even worse as polyester does not bond as well to wood as epoxy do and
is far less watertight (I guess that really should be vaportight). One thing
that might 'save' an old leaky wooden hulk is laminating some very stretchy
cloth in epoxy on the outside.
Building a wood-epoxy+any-fiber boat from scratch is another issue. If done
with some care it will result in a very durable structure which needs only
very basic maintenance.
/Martin
============================================================================
Martin Schoon <era...@eras70.ericsson.se>
"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back"
Piet Hein
============================================================================
Ian D. Bruce
her dry out completely and then epoxied splines into each seam. Then sanded
down to bare wood and applied epoxy and light glass cloth. They also sealed
the boat with epoxy resin on the inside. The goal is to impregnate all the
wood and seal it from the water. A hard goal to achieve completely without
taking the boat mostly apart. They were happy with the results, but as noted
earlier just galssing the outside (especially with polyester) wouldn't last
very long because the wood would take up water and expand. The splines noted
above were to stiffen the boat and compensate for the fact that the planks
would no longer swell and cause the boat to stiffen.
Stefan Mochnacki
Martin Schoon AR/RH <era...@kierac152eras70.ericsson.se> wrote:
>
>Anyway, even if they are using epoxy it is virtually impossible to seal an
>existing structure so the wood will expand and contract with changes in moisture
>and eventually the fiberglass and the wood will 'divorce'. With polyester this
>will be even worse as polyester does not bond as well to wood as epoxy do and
>is far less watertight (I guess that really should be vaportight). One thing
>that might 'save' an old leaky wooden hulk is laminating some very stretchy
>cloth in epoxy on the outside.
>
According to Vaitses in his book on the subject, you need to *staple*
the first layer of cloth to the wood before it sets. Use monel staples.
Having seen some results of glass over wood, I'm not so keen on the
idea. However, Vaitses is quite enthusiastic about it in his book, and
gives many examples.
--
Stefan W. Mochnacki INTERNET - ste...@centaur.astro.utoronto.ca
Astronomy, U. of Toronto UUCP - {uunet,pyramid}!utai!helios.physics!stefan
Ph. (905) 884-9562 LOCATION - David Dunlap Observatory
FAX (905) 884-2672 Ph. (Mon,Wed) (416)-978-4165 (St.George Campus)
John Frieman
: According to Vaitses in his book on the subject, you need to *staple*
: the first layer of cloth to the wood before it sets. Use monel staples.
: Having seen some results of glass over wood, I'm not so keen on the
: idea. However, Vaitses is quite enthusiastic about it in his book, and
: gives many examples.
L. Francis Herreshoff was a close friend of Vaitses, but they strongly
disagreed on glassing wooden boats. When I was an apprentice to Mr.
Herreshoff he told me that people were just fooling themselves when they
glassed an old wooden boat. "If she is sound, she will float, if she's
not sound, fix her right." Mr. Herreshoff respected Mr. Vaitses' boat
building skills well enough to have him build the last boat where he
personally supervised the construction. This was a Nereia ketch in
1969. She is a beautiful example of the designer's art and the
builder's skill.
Enjoy,
John
Nick Tonkin
Hi Regor
I presume by wooden hull, that you mean a carvel planked and not some sort of cold moulded hull. If this is the case, then DON'T DO IT.
I have not heard one good word for the use of fibreglass on an old wooden hull. It might slow the leaks down for a few years, but your boat will quietly rot, unseen, between the fibreglass laminate and the hull. Polyester resin does not adhere well to wood and de-lamination within a short time is likely.
Having said that, a Kauri veneer laminate using Epoxy seems to be succesfull. I believe Frank and Pauline Carr Epoxied their 80 odd year Falmouth Oyster boat Curlew, while they were in New Zealand. However, since the practice is is still in it's infancy, I would wait another 10 to 15 years to see the condition of boats treated in such a manner.
The process was described in either the Boatman or Classic Boat magazine sometime last year if you would care to read up on the subject.
Nick Tonkin.
E-mail ni...@tmdpc.demon.co.uk
CompuServe 100045,374
Paul Kamen
A lot of us would be very interested in hearing about your experiences
with LFH, when you have a chance.
-"Call me Fishmeal"-
Jim Kerns
: There seems to be a flurry of activity in these parts in upgrading the
: hulls of wooden vessels. Has anyone had any experience with fibreglass
: over wood hulls.
More like downgrading in my opinion. Perhaps something to do to get a
couple more years out of a worthless hulk but not something that should
that should be done to a sound vessel.
: Does this lessen the maintenance and cost ($$$) associated
: with wooden hulls?
I doubt it. You still have to paint the bottom and instead of painting
the topsides you have to rub and wax. Not much change, eh?
: How do these hulls compare to all fibreglass hulls?
Before the glass was added they didn't have problems with delamination
stress cracks, etc. now they might.. And, if you had problems with the
hull before it was covered, those problems are still there, just harder
to get at and fix. Also, the sheathing will crack along the plank seams,
delaminate from the wood... The worst of both worlds.
Based on my personal experience, a wood hull compares very well to
fiberglass. Take the time to really look into what is involved instead
of listening to the old hype about maintenance free fiberglass boats
that is still echoing around from the '60's. An acquaintance insisted
that he didn't need to put anti-fouling paint on his plastic I/O even
though it took all weekend to scrape the grass off the hull each fall -
"It's fiberglass, you don't have to paint fiberglass."
The latest issue of Wooden Boat has a rather comprehensive article about
sheathing hulls with various resins / fibers. Well worth reading if you
are considering anything like this.
Jim Kerns
ke...@ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com
Ford Motor
Dearborn Michigan
WILLIAM MORRISON
You might wish to read Alan Vaitses book on covering boats
with fibreglass.
Personally i have a 30 year old sloop (Thunderbird class-wel
known on the west coast) and the glass is still intact. I have
used epoxy resin on any repairs asbonds much better than
the polyester.
Anne Wayman
Wooden Boat Magazine has an article about fiberglass over wood -- and they
aprrove now, which is new -- current issue.
John Frieman
: Wooden Boat Magazine has an article about fiberglass over wood -- and they
: aprrove now, which is new -- current issue.
Many years ago Capt. Nat Herreshoff wrote to his son L. Francis
Herreshoff: "There are three kinds of people you will have to learn to
deal with, fools, damn fools and sons of lady dogs."
I'm not sure I approve of Wooden Boat Magazine. I AM sure that I do NOT
approve of fiberglassing old wooden boats.
John A. Frieman, N.A.
Former Principal Surveyor for McLear and Harris, Inc.
Former Instrumentation Engineer, Microclimate Lab, Conservation
Analytical Lab, Smithsonian Institution
P.S. Capt. Nat was right.
har...@wmich.edu
> In article <1994Jun27.135202.1@leif>, rpo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
> |>
> |> There seems to be a flurry of activity in these parts in upgrading the
> |> hulls of wooden vessels. Has anyone had any experience with fibreglass
> |> over wood hulls. Does this lessen the maintenance and cost ($$$) associated
> |> with wooden hulls? How do these hulls compare to all fibreglass hulls?
> |>
> |> Regor
>
Much better is copper over tarred felt. this lasts 20-30 years and gives
free anti-fouling.
Get the tar, felt and copper at any good roofing supply store.
fiberglass over a wood hull is a degrading of the hull and will greatly
lessen the value of the boat.
Good wood boats last 60-100 years without much bother.
Gregg Germain
of ribs, and will have to replace some planking in the future but ONLY
because of the horrible treatment the boat got from previous owners.
I would Never fiberglass over a wooden hull of a traditionally built boat.
Why just the movement of the planks after haulout and then launch would
be enough to trash the boat.
Fiberglassing the hull would be the death knell of the boat.
Besides, the boat would not perform NEARLY as well as it does without the
fiberglass. Not only because of weight but also because of the way a
wooden boat works.
*SHUDDER* right now i'm thinking about how wood screws and planking work
together when the boat is under stress and the thought of a fiberglass
shell over that is simply apalling.
--
--- Gregg
#29 --)-Saville--
gr...@hrc2.harvard.edu "A Mig at your six is better than
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics no Mig at all."
Phone: (617) 496-7713
Roger C. Carlson
type of construction suffer from the same type of problems if fiberglassed as
those indicated by Greg with the 75 year old boat?
I have always had some leakage due to a void in the plywood that missed being
filled and the boat now need a thourough repainting. Would fiberglassing be
a reasonable alternative?
Thanks for any help,
Roger
ro...@ancor.com
Tim Walker
: Fiberglassing the hull would be the death knell of the boat.
I'm cornfused. Isn't glass/epoxy over thin planks *THE* 1990's way
of acheiving light-weight and strength ? My little wineglass dory
has no ribs, weighs 90 pounds, rows like a dream and is tough as
steel. Traditional ? No. But then again, I finally traded the
horse and buggy in on a real commuter (my bicycle). Why tradition
outweighs practicality and safety is lost on me...
Tim Walker
Tim Walker
: Besides, the boat would not perform NEARLY as well as it does without the
: fiberglass. Not only because of weight but also because of the way a
: wooden boat works.
That's true, the water seepage in the bowels probably does add to the
ballast.
Tim Walker
Rod Mc Innis
If you designed a boat to be contructed that way, you could certainly achieve a
lightweight hull. However, if you take a boat the was designed to be wood plank, and
it has lived for many years as a wood plank hull, then cover it with glass & epoxy,
it certainly doesn't get any lighter.
Wood rot is a major problem in any boat that has wood, including most fiberglass
boats. If you take an old boat, whose planks are somewhat marginal, and then glass
over them, you run the risk of having a plank rot out in fairly short order and no
way of repairing it.
Rod McInnis
Hank Palmieri
but with some soft spots you might seriously consider "git-rot." this is old
stuff, and while undercatalysed west system epoxy from gudgeon brothealmost as
well, the incredibly
long curing time is going to be an advantage. check the but blocks above all
and the fastenings at the garboard (at the keel line) as these are first to
fail. then, if you are still unsatisfied with your boat, and if it is bent
frame check the turn of
the bldge, sister it or cut out the weakened section and replace by splining in
a glu-lam built-up frame. if sawn frames, then it is a matter of pulling out
the old and replacing directly.
in my experience with pacific class sloops in california which are exposed to
lots of sun, you can coat the inside of the planks with west system and you
will leave an escape passage (to outside) for the water to migrate. however the
jur remains out on whe
ther, in the long run this really is advisable. as far as splines go in a
carvel planked boat -- beware. if you are really good with a router, you may
extend the racing life of the boat -- temporarily increasing stiffness -- at
the expense of the overall
life of the boat. best suggestion in the end, no matter what the experts
say... if it's a carvel planked boat, respect the system and reframe, redeck,
replank -- whatever it takes.
if its stripplanked or coldmolded, well, that's another discussion. call
gudgeon bros. -- or get their book. it's worth the effort. just watch out for
the fumes of the epoxy...
hat's all. sorry for the wild typing -- i'm just figuring out this computer
stuff...
hpalmieri.delphi.com
har...@wmich.edu
>>I'm cornfused. Isn't glass/epoxy over thin planks *THE* 1990's way
>>of acheiving light-weight and strength ? My little wineglass dory
>>has no ribs, weighs 90 pounds, rows like a dream and is tough as
>>steel. Traditional ? No. But then again, I finally traded the
>>horse and buggy in on a real commuter (my bicycle). Why tradition
>>outweighs practicality and safety is lost on me...
>>
>>Tim Walker
>>
>
Epoxy over wood was the 70's way. Now it is carbon fiber and kevlar
and epoxy or vinal-easter lent :)
Epoxy over THIN wood works if the wood is completely sealed and stabilized.
thin means less than 1/4 inch thick. If no dings or cracks let water into
the wood it works very well.
Gregg Germain
Tim, you are talking about original construction where they
sandwich in a THIN layer of balsa wood. The whole structure is designed
to work in harmony. AND it's only as good as the integrity of the
fiberglass: get a crack or break that allows water in and you'll have a
problem that's similar to one of th eproblems in fiberglassing traditional
wooden boats.
As for practicality and safety, I challenge you to prove that a
fiberglass boat is in any way more safe or more practical than a wooden
boat. I bet i spend the same amount of time on the bottom and topsides scraping and painting as you do scraping painting and polishing.
Gregg Germain
Tim,
I hope this wasn't a sarcastic comment. However, I can tell you from direct experience that my 75 year old Herreshoff racer doesn't take in enough water
to add much to the ballast.
Robert Joseph Bennett
me to agree with Gregg: both wood and fiberglass are fine boat materials but
covering wood with glass is always a disaster.
Boatbuilder Bob
EARL BEARD
ery interesting. I covered a 22' sloop with fiberglass in 1969. The boat with i
ts curent owner is doing fine and on the third set of sails sinve I sold it. I
guess it is how you do it.
Earl
Mark Maral
woodies for some time now. Mine ('59 Century) was done 6 years
ago and I have had no problems what so ever.
Mark
Robert Joseph Bennett
rot beneath the new coating. Do your boats stay out in the weather or do
they get hauled out and stored dry somewhere?
Boatbuilder Bob
S...@mwvm.mitre.org
to excellent results. The key, clearly, is bonding the two together - and just
clean wood isn't enough.
After cleaning the wood, I apply a coat of slow hardening West (tropical hardne
r) and then a second coat in about 20- minutes. I now have about 1 hour of
fast work to get it together. I put on the pre-cut roving or mat (only the
first coat is a rush). While the entire 3 layers (epoxy/epoxy/glass) is still
hard, I staple through the glass into the wood with either bronze staples and a
hammer - or if I'm lazy and less pure - household staples and a staple gun.
The gun is sometimes trash - sometime cleanable with acetone - and you must
wear gloves.
Two more coats of resin and glass - and final coats of glass - and it holds for
a very long time.
It is, however, cheaper to trans the mess and buy a new boat. /Stu
Dennis Mairet
The current issue of Wooden Boat has an article about sheathing wooden
boats with synthetic materials. The article gave a great deal of facts,
but was devoid of conclusions or advice. It read like a doctoral thesis
on materials science.
If there are any materials scientists reading this news group, maybe you
could read the article, and interpret it for us. :)
--
Dennis Mairet
Rochester, Minnesota
(507)253-5979
Gregg Germain
: The comments about the problem with covering wooden boats with fiberglass are v
Earl,
Was it a planked boat or plywood?
Grayson Walker
>me to agree with Gregg: both wood and fiberglass are fine boat materials but
>covering wood with glass is always a disaster.
Fiberglass over wood works just fine, if the application is done properly.
I would favor epoxy over poly today, but there were lots of sucessful boats
built using conventions FRP over wood. For example, the Chris Craft Daytona
Sport Fish, the "Chrisovich." Fiberglass over wood got part of its bad rap
from people using it as a cheap way to avoid or defer maintanance -- or
covering up punky wood with the stuff. I've seen lots of disasters, but
I've also seen the good ones.
--
FORZA!
GWA...@RTFM.MLB.FL.US "Big brown river. . ." Tuli Kupferberg, 1963