Fuel tank leaks in Bayliner
David Galli
I have a 1993 22' Trophy that apparently had slowly been leaking fuel into
the bilge for about 2 years. It wasn't until after the tank completely gave
way, that we found the problem. The fuel tank is "sealed" under the cockpit.
Total cost of repairs is approaching $4000. When not in use the boat is kept
in covered/dry storage. Bayliner says too bad. Need help in fighting this
one.
hkrause
I would immediately contact:
The US Coast Guard
The Consumer Product Safety Commission
The Attorney General of your state
The U.S. Attorney for your area
The Interstate Commerce Commission
The Federal Trade Commission
I am not kidding.
The USCG maintains a listing of serious boat defects and can force
recalls on manufacturers. By far, the largest number of recalls is
against your boat manufacturer.
Make up a mailing list and send out regular mailings to everyone.
Document the damages with photos and descriptions from qualified marine
repair shops.
Talk up the possibilities of explosion.
Widely publicize the gas tank failure.
Consider hiring a bomber lawyer on a contingency basis and filing a
multi-million dollar lawsuit. File it in U.S. District Court for the
District of Columbia.
In short, since Bayliner has told you to take a walk, do everything you
can do to nail the SOB's right to the wall. Don't let them off the hook.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
An "authority" is anyone who guessed right more than once
Phoenix
http://www.boatus.com/consumer/dispute.htm
they have a great track record of resolving complaints and if they aren't
resolved publishing them in the magazines. Copy Bayliner and your dealer on
all of your correspondence.
-- --
Jim
M/V Phoenix
Regal 256
I was on a roll, till I slipped on the butter.
hkrause wrote in message <36B99C51...@erols.com>...
Old Crow
>
> Has anyone had a problem with fuel tank deterioration in a Bayliner Trophy.
> Total cost of repairs is approaching $4000.
Come on can't you make up a better story to troll with ?
> that apparently had slowly been leaking fuel into the bilge
> for about 2 years.
Don't you ever inspect your boat ? Wonder where the fuel went ?
> It wasn't until after the tank completely gave
> > way, that we found the problem.
If you can't smell a leak, or see one, what clued you in that
the tank gave away completely ?
Is it possible that there is nothing wrong with the tank and
the problem is a disconnected / broken hose ?
Its evidently being repaired, care to post some photo's of
the culprit ?
--
Notice do not respond to this address.
It is incorrect to prevent the receipt of SPAM.
David Galli
Old Crow wrote in message <36B9B5...@south.net>...
>David Galli wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone had a problem with fuel tank deterioration in a Bayliner
Trophy.
>> I have a 1993 22' Trophy . The fuel tank is "sealed" under the cockpit.
>> Total cost of repairs is approaching $4000.
>
>Come on can't you make up a better story to troll with ?
>> that apparently had slowly been leaking fuel into the bilge
>> for about 2 years.
Yes we had been smelling fumes intermittently for about 2 years (the boat is
not used year round though). We replaced fittings, hoses, BUT THERE IS NO
ACCESS TO THE TANK. At first it must have been a slow leak.
>
>Don't you ever inspect your boat ? Wonder where the fuel went ?
It was slow enough not to be noticed until the tank gave way. To repeat, the
tank is sealed under the cockpit and you can't get to it. To remove it, the
cockpit had to be cut open. Great design? That's where the bulk of the cost
of repair is.
>
>> It wasn't until after the tank completely gave
>> > way, that we found the problem.
>
>If you can't smell a leak, or see one, what clued you in that
>the tank gave away completely ?
>Is it possible that there is nothing wrong with the tank and
>the problem is a disconnected / broken hose ?
About 10 gallons of gasoline in the bilge. The tank has been replaced and
had over 30 small holes in it. Most of the holes were where the stainless
steel straps were in contact with the aluminum tank.
>
>Its evidently being repaired, care to post some photo's of
>the culprit ?
Will do.
>--
>Notice do not respond to this address.
>It is incorrect to prevent the receipt of SPAM.
My guess is that you are a Bayliner Rep or Saleman.
hkrause
Hope you replaced that tank with a fiberglass one.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Ensign Fodder, report to transporter for away team duty.
fr...@home.com
"David Galli" <dga...@pluto.njcc.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had a problem with fuel tank deterioration in a Bayliner Trophy.
> the bilge for about 2 years. It wasn't until after the tank completely gave
> way, that we found the problem. The fuel tank is "sealed" under the cockpit.
> Total cost of repairs is approaching $4000. When not in use the boat is kept
> in covered/dry storage. Bayliner says too bad. Need help in fighting this
> one.
I was flamed by bringing this up last year, but this is not uncommon. Do a
search in deja news and you will find several others with the same problem.
The problem (IMHO) may be because the boat is designed with the gas tank at
the very bottom of the full. Because of this (if you boat in salt water)
when salt water get's into the hull it can pass freely around the aluminum
gas tank. Despite what some may tell you aluminum corrodes easily in salt
water.
Unfortunately because of this design, it is likely to happen again. I would
also check the location of your bilge pump(s), Some I have seen are mounted 2
inches above the bottom of the hull allowing the salt water to completely
circulate around the tank, eventually even though it dries, the aluminum
corrodes.
IMO- Gas tank placement should be an important consideration in purchasing
a boat. Especially if you boat in salt water. Consider yourself lucky that
it didn't explode on you. I would consider this a serious design flaw, but
I'm sure this will be challenged in this ng by the cries for statistical
evidence.
Gas tanks are replaced on all kinds of boats, but as you are finding out
yours will cost more because of all the labor involved in cutting the boat
open to replace it. Now you have something else to look for when purchasing
your next boat.
Good luck,
Ray
Relax- Take a San Diego Cyber Cruise!
www.sdboats.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
fr...@home.com
old...@south.net wrote:
> David Galli wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone had a problem with fuel tank deterioration in a Bayliner Trophy.
> > Total cost of repairs is approaching $4000.
>
Geez, this sounds familiar, Suggest you run a search, must be lot's of
trolling going on. Or just another rouge Bayliner owner that you
need to try and intimidate back into conformity?
> > that apparently had slowly been leaking fuel into the bilge
> > for about 2 years.
>
> Don't you ever inspect your boat ? Wonder where the fuel went ?
The leaks I have seen are small pin hole leaks on the aft side of the
tank. Impossible to inspect the tank without taking the boat apart.
>
> > It wasn't until after the tank completely gave
> > > way, that we found the problem.
>
> If you can't smell a leak, or see one, what clued you in that
> the tank gave away completely ?
> Is it possible that there is nothing wrong with the tank and
> the problem is a disconnected / broken hose ?
Possible, but this is consistant with several I have seen with the same
problem.
>
> Its evidently being repaired, care to post some photo's of
> the culprit ?
Do you really want to go there? Actually, check with Skipper he
made a post similar to yours last year and I supplied him with pictures.
RBStern
>had over 30 small holes in it. Most of the holes were where the stainless
>steel straps were in contact with the aluminum tank.
>
Doesn't this setup create an imbalance of electrical potential that will
result in corrosion with the more (or less?) noble material? Shouldn't there
have been some form of insulation between the two metals to prevent the
corrosive flow of current?
Can somebody with good metalurgy and electrical properties knowledge please
chime in here with design comments.
Rich Stern
Skipper
> I was flamed by bringing this up last year, but this is not uncommon.
> Do a search in deja news and you will find several others with the
> same problem.
You were flamed last year because of your continual Bayliner bashing.
Additionally, you offered to bring proof that went poof. I did a Deja
search for the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts you reference and came
up dry. However, a Deja search of 'Fritz' found pages and pages of
Bayliner flames. Would you care to be more specific about the location
of the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts?
The problem of replacing imbedded fuel tanks is not peculiar to
Bayliner. Many builders incorporate this method today, and that is a
problem.
--
Skipper
hkrause
> bilge, the more noble stainless strap will certainly eat away the
> aluminum. How absurd.....and they HAD to know it would happen!
>
> Larry
I wouldn't bet the farm on your last sentence.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Help stamp out and abolish redundancy.
Skipper
> Skipper wrote:
>> I did a Deja search for the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts you
>> reference and came up dry. Would you care to be more specific about
>> the location of the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts?
> Oh Skipper, Your memory loss is so convenient, I was curious when the
> threads started why you conveniently did not contribute your
> "masterly" advise.
That's OK fritzy, I found the post:
Fritz wrote:
> I stand corrected, I misunderstood the mechanic, There are 2 bilge
> pumps located in the aft bilge area, both are mounted 2" above the
> bottom of the hull. There IS a PVC pipe running through the bulkhead,
> thus allowing water (salt water in this case) to run freely throughout
> the bottom of the boat. The gas tank is seperated from the hull by
> it's 1/8" rubber mounting straps.
--
Skipper
G. Schnauzer
aluminium If a manufacturer of any product is going to build it cheap where
you can see it, you have to *know* they are not going to use the high
quality parts where they are hidden. But, what the hell, if it is "suitable
for the purpose" then it must be great! The bitterness of poor quality is
remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
--
G. Schnauzer
hkrause <hkr...@erols-nospam.com> wrote in message
news:36BA68CC...@erols.com...
fr...@home.com
Skipper <ski...@dtc.net> wrote:
> fritz wrote:
>
> > I was flamed by bringing this up last year, but this is not uncommon.
> > Do a search in deja news and you will find several others with the
> > same problem.
>
> You were flamed last year because of your continual Bayliner bashing.
> Additionally, you offered to bring proof that went poof.
again do you?
I did a Deja
> search for the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts you reference and came
> up dry. However, a Deja search of 'Fritz' found pages and pages of
> Bayliner flames. Would you care to be more specific about the location
> of the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts?
Oh Skipper, Your memory loss is so convenient, I was curious when the threads
started why you conveniently did not contribute your "masterly" advise.
There are more but this is one that I am giving you, you can find the rest:
.
>My neighbor just told me he had a leak in his '89 Bayliner 2755 gas
>tank.
>He said he had to remove the tank but the only way he could do it was by
>removing the aft bunk floor and part of rear bulkhead.
>Are there any easier methods to remedy the problem???
>Please email with advice. Thanks in advance.
>--
> Aloha From
> Jim & M...
There are more in this thread as well. Perhaps your fingers are not
functioning properly, or maybe you just don't want to find the info?
Larry
Boatdoc111
fr...@home.com
Skipper <ski...@dtc.net> wrote:
> That's OK fritzy, I found the post:
>
> Fritz wrote:
>
> > I stand corrected, I misunderstood the mechanic, There are 2 bilge
> > pumps located in the aft bilge area, both are mounted 2" above the
> > bottom of the hull. There IS a PVC pipe running through the bulkhead,
> > thus allowing water (salt water in this case) to run freely throughout
> > the bottom of the boat. The gas tank is seperated from the hull by
> > it's 1/8" rubber mounting straps.
So do you understand it? Did you flush the bottom of your hull out
with fresh water after your big "Salt Water" adventure SKippy?
Or are you going on the replace a tank a decade plan? Do you have the
model that has the cute elivated bilge pump holders? If so I suggest
you relocate them a little lower. Just a suggestion.
..Ray
hkrause
Wasn't a bilge pump optional on Skippy's model?
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
It's too bad that ignorance is not painful.
Larry
happen. I tried to get them involved with my awful Yamaha GP1200 PWC
fiasco. I was quite astounded at their answer....(sigh)
Larry
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:06:26 -0500, "Phoenix"
<jgallo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I would also contact Boat/US consumer affairs dept. at :
>http://www.boatus.com/consumer/dispute.htm
>they have a great track record of resolving complaints and if they aren't
>resolved publishing them in the magazines. Copy Bayliner and your dealer on
>all of your correspondence.
>
>-- --
>Jim
>M/V Phoenix
>Regal 256
>
>I was on a roll, till I slipped on the butter.
>
>hkrause wrote in message <36B99C51...@erols.com>...
>|David Galli wrote:
>|>
>|> Has anyone had a problem with fuel tank deterioration in a Bayliner
>Trophy.
>|> I have a 1993 22' Trophy that apparently had slowly been leaking fuel
>into
>|> the bilge for about 2 years. It wasn't until after the tank completely
>gave
>|> way, that we found the problem. The fuel tank is "sealed" under the
>cockpit.
>|> Total cost of repairs is approaching $4000. When not in use the boat is
>kept
>|> in covered/dry storage. Bayliner says too bad. Need help in fighting this
>|> one.
>|
>|
>|I would immediately contact:
>|
>|The US Coast Guard
>|The Consumer Product Safety Commission
>|The Attorney General of your state
>|The U.S. Attorney for your area
>|The Interstate Commerce Commission
>|The Federal Trade Commission
>|
>|I am not kidding.
>|
>|The USCG maintains a listing of serious boat defects and can force
>|recalls on manufacturers. By far, the largest number of recalls is
>|against your boat manufacturer.
>|
>|Make up a mailing list and send out regular mailings to everyone.
>|Document the damages with photos and descriptions from qualified marine
>|repair shops.
>|
>|Talk up the possibilities of explosion.
>|
>|Widely publicize the gas tank failure.
>|
>|Consider hiring a bomber lawyer on a contingency basis and filing a
>|multi-million dollar lawsuit. File it in U.S. District Court for the
>|District of Columbia.
>|
>|In short, since Bayliner has told you to take a walk, do everything you
>|can do to nail the SOB's right to the wall. Don't let them off the hook.
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|
>|--
>|
>|Harry Krause
>|- - - - - - - - - - - -
James Gallow
Being very serious, and without any Bayliner Bashing, since a cup of gas has
the explosion capabilities of a stick of dynomite I would think you would
want to verify both in writting from Bayliner and then your own visual
inspection exactly how did they install your gas tank.
This issue isn't an issue of Bayliner being a value price product vs. a boat
that some view as being overspec'ed for recreation use, it is an issue of
safety. I know at this point I would not get into a Bayliner without some
comfirmation as to how Bayliner has installed their gas tanks.
I tried to copy Bayliner on this post, but they don't have a general email
address. As a service to everyone in the newsgroup, maybe you can contact
Bayliner as a current owner and see if they will make an official response
in the newsgroup concerning this problem.
Jim
Skipper wrote:
> fr...@home.com wrote:
>
> > Skipper wrote:
>
> >> I did a Deja search for the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts you
> >> reference and came up dry. Would you care to be more specific about
> >> the location of the leaking Bayliner fuel tank posts?
>
> > Oh Skipper, Your memory loss is so convenient, I was curious when the
> > threads started why you conveniently did not contribute your
> > "masterly" advise.
>
> That's OK fritzy, I found the post:
>
> Fritz wrote:
>
> > I stand corrected, I misunderstood the mechanic, There are 2 bilge
> > pumps located in the aft bilge area, both are mounted 2" above the
> > bottom of the hull. There IS a PVC pipe running through the bulkhead,
> > thus allowing water (salt water in this case) to run freely throughout
> > the bottom of the boat. The gas tank is seperated from the hull by
> > it's 1/8" rubber mounting straps.
>
> --
> Skipper
Marcus G Bell
> > Larry wrote:
> >> Absolutely! If the aluminum got wet, and it will stay wet in
> >> that bilge, the more noble stainless strap will certainly eat
> >> away the aluminum. How absurd.....and they HAD to know it
> >> would happen!
Harry wrote:
> > I wouldn't bet the farm on your last sentence. --
G. Schnauzer (giant...@ibm.net) wrote:
> Look at the facts Harry. A stainless gas tank is more expensive
> than aluminium If a manufacturer of any product is going to
> build it cheap where you can see it, you have to *know* they are
> not going to use the high quality parts where they are hidden.
I think what Harry meant was, Bayliner might not have known that
stainless steel in contact with aluminum in the presence of
saltwater would lead to galvanic corrosion. To have known would
imply some degree of expertise, of course.
So, it is not comforting to become aware that critical compenentry
hidden from easy access for inspection would be installed in such
a way that failure would be in fact enhanced by its method of
installation. Either they knew this might be a problem but it was
cheapest to manufacture so they did it anyway, or they were not
aware that it would be a problem, equally reprehensible.
With parts that go into manufacturing often supplied in batches,
it's quite possible that aluminum tanks with stainless straps were
installed only during a certain production run, and the problem is
not endemic to the brand or model. If an aluminum tank was
determined to be the best solution, then it would seem to me that
aluminum fasteners could have been developed. Or, the tanks on
later models might be of another material of similar cost
effectivenes.
-- -- Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
hkrause
>
> > > Larry wrote:
> > >> Absolutely! If the aluminum got wet, and it will stay wet in
> > >> that bilge, the more noble stainless strap will certainly eat
> > >> away the aluminum. How absurd.....and they HAD to know it
> > >> would happen!
>
> Harry wrote:
> > > I wouldn't bet the farm on your last sentence. --
>
> G. Schnauzer (giant...@ibm.net) wrote:
> > Look at the facts Harry. A stainless gas tank is more expensive
> > than aluminium If a manufacturer of any product is going to
> > build it cheap where you can see it, you have to *know* they are
> > not going to use the high quality parts where they are hidden.
>
> I think what Harry meant was, Bayliner might not have known that
> stainless steel in contact with aluminum in the presence of
> saltwater would lead to galvanic corrosion. To have known would
> imply some degree of expertise, of course.
Uh oh...my posts are getting too easy to decode.
Skipper
>> I stand corrected, I misunderstood the mechanic, There are 2 bilge
>> pumps located in the aft bilge area, both are mounted 2" above the
>> bottom of the hull. There IS a PVC pipe running through the bulkhead,
>> thus allowing water (salt water in this case) to run freely
>> throughout the bottom of the boat. The gas tank is seperated from the
>> hull by it's 1/8" rubber mounting straps.
> So do you understand it? Did you flush the bottom of your hull out
> with fresh water after your big "Salt Water" adventure SKippy? Or are
> you going on the replace a tank a decade plan? Do you have the model
> that has the cute elivated bilge pump holders? If so I suggest you
> relocate them a little lower. Just a suggestion.
Yes, I do understand it, Fritzy. The 2252 does have an imbedded fuel
tank with access to its fittings through the engine hatch cover.
Inspection is actually quite easy and convenient. The bilge area where
the tank is located has always been bone dry. As to your assertion that
the two bilge pumps located under the engine are mounted 2" above the
bottom of the hull, you are quite wrong. They do a great job of keeping
the bilge dry, and are mounted behind and below the fuel tanks. The
very little residual water remaining under the engine after the pumps do
their job can be easily mopped up with a towel.
I notice you sell boats, Fritzy. What motivates you to issue over 50
Bayliner bashing posts each year. Anyone reviewing your posting history
and making a rational assessment would find your Bayliner bashing
comments obsessive. Would you care to share with us why you can't seem
to find a way to stop flaming Bayliners and their owners?
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Skippy,
> Being very serious, ...
> I tried to copy Bayliner on this post, but they don't have a general
> email address. As a service to everyone in the newsgroup, maybe you
> can contact Bayliner as a current owner and see if they will make an
> official response in the newsgroup concerning this problem.
You can contact by sending e-mail to the Customer Service address listed
on their web page. I'm sure they will recognize you have the very best
intentions.
--
Skipper
G. Schnauzer
largest manufacturer of boats in North America, possibly was not aware of
the concept of galvanic corrosion. Therefore the installation of an
aluminum tank, with stainless hold downs, with no insulating material
between the two metals was purely accidental.
I'm sure there is at least one member of this NG that would believe that
story, however, I would not have guessed it to be Harry.
On the other hand, if you are right and Harry really thought that and in
fact the largest manufacturer of boats in North America produces boats
knowing they will see service in salt water and their engineers have never
heard of galvanic corrosion, then that is a very frightening proposition.
Marcus G Bell wrote in message <79f6es$bv5$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>
>> > Larry wrote:
>> >> Absolutely! If the aluminum got wet, and it will stay wet in
>> >> that bilge, the more noble stainless strap will certainly eat
>> >> away the aluminum. How absurd.....and they HAD to know it
>> >> would happen!
>
>Harry wrote:
>> > I wouldn't bet the farm on your last sentence. --
>
>G. Schnauzer (giant...@ibm.net) wrote:
>> Look at the facts Harry. A stainless gas tank is more expensive
>> than aluminium If a manufacturer of any product is going to
>> build it cheap where you can see it, you have to *know* they are
>> not going to use the high quality parts where they are hidden.
>
>
>I think what Harry meant was, Bayliner might not have known that
>stainless steel in contact with aluminum in the presence of
>saltwater would lead to galvanic corrosion. To have known would
>imply some degree of expertise, of course.
>
>So, it is not comforting to become aware that critical compenentry
>hidden from easy access for inspection would be installed in such
>a way that failure would be in fact enhanced by its method of
>installation. Either they knew this might be a problem but it was
>cheapest to manufacture so they did it anyway, or they were not
>aware that it would be a problem, equally reprehensible.
>
hkrause
Skipper, you are in quicksand when you accuse anyone of being obsessive.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Is your church on the B.A.T.F hit-list?
hkrause
>
> So what you are saying Marcus, is that Harry really believes that the
> largest manufacturer of boats in North America, possibly was not aware of
> the concept of galvanic corrosion. Therefore the installation of an
> aluminum tank, with stainless hold downs, with no insulating material
> between the two metals was purely accidental.
>
> I'm sure there is at least one member of this NG that would believe that
> story, however, I would not have guessed it to be Harry.
>
> On the other hand, if you are right and Harry really thought that and in
> fact the largest manufacturer of boats in North America produces boats
> knowing they will see service in salt water and their engineers have never
> heard of galvanic corrosion, then that is a very frightening proposition.
Let's get real here, fellows. Bayliner is the company that uses
chrome-plated zinc hardware on its boats. In salt water. Why are you
surprised that it fits aluminum fuel tanks with stainless steel straps?
Take another look at that clapped out Bayliner at Pascoe's site. Ignore
the damage and the editorial commentary. Look at the photos. Notice how
the stringers are attached...1" fiberglass tape. Notice that the damned
stringers curve. Does this not tell you anything?
Skipper
> Skipper, you are in quicksand when you accuse anyone of being
> obsessive.
Naw! I'm not even close to 32,000 posts to Usenet. Do you know anyone
who is?
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Take another look at that clapped out Bayliner at Pascoe's site.
> Ignore the damage and the editorial commentary. Look at the photos.
> Notice how the stringers are attached...1" fiberglass tape. Notice
> that the damned stringers curve. Does this not tell you anything?
Yes, it does. You appearantly missed the excellent post from Gould
0738. Just for you Harry:
Gould 0738 wrote:
> In case there are any NG subscribers who haven't kill filtered any
> posts with the words Bayliner and Pascoe in them, I can add something
> constructive here.
> The reviewer in question has stated to me in private correspondence
> that he does not ......is any body listening, does anybody care...
> does NOT consider the boat reviewed in his article to be
> representative of the entire Bayliner line. Those who use this article
> to try to establish that the author of it thinks all Bayliners are
> junk are sadly and very seriously mistaken.
> The author of this article even mentioned that there is a particular
> model of Bayliner boat that he routinely recommends to people who are
> shopping for a boat in that size category.
> We all fall into the trap sometimes of painting entire product lines
> with a single reputation. Just as there's a difference between a
> discardable little commuter car and a top of the line luxury
> automobile (even though both are built by GM, Ford, or Daimler
> Chrysler); the same applies to a lot of boat manufacturers and their
> products. Almost any statement that says "Bayliners are......" will
> fall under this category. To be anywhere nearly accurate, a statement
> about the product line needs to specifically identify a particular
> model. I have made the same mistake, it is very easy to do.
> Most folks spending 300 to 500 grand on a boat aren't inexperienced
> newbies (ok, some are) or "payment buyers" sucked in at a boat
> show...and some of these people select Bayliner as their brand of
> choice. Regardless of what the rest of us think, they're entitled to
> their opinion and preferances.
> Mr. Pascoe's article condemns one boat, not an entire manufacturer's
> production. If this man's opininon is going to be considered "gospel"
> than at the very least his entire opinion should be so considered, not
> just the fractions of it that serve particular agendas.
--
Skipper
Marcus G Bell
> So what you are saying Marcus, is that Harry really believes
> that the largest manufacturer of boats in North America,
> possibly was not aware of the concept of galvanic corrosion.
> Therefore the installation of an aluminum tank, with stainless
> hold downs, with no insulating material between the two metals
> was purely accidental.
I'm not saying it's what he believes. I'm saying it's probably
what he said.
> On the other hand, if you are right and Harry really thought
> that and in fact the largest manufacturer of boats in North
> America produces boats knowing they will see service in salt
> water and their engineers have never heard of galvanic
> corrosion, then that is a very frightening proposition.
I am not frightened by what Harry thinks on this issue. I am more
frightened by what the Bayliner engineers may or may not have been
thinking, which is what Larry and Harry have both been getting
at.
Assuming Bayliner's smartboys DID know about galvanic corrosion,
it is frightening to think that they would go ahead and install a
fuel tank in such a way as to promote galvanic corrosion of the
fuel tank.
It is also possible that the problem occurred on a single
production run when someone in purchasing got a deal on stainless
steel straps, and the guys in manufacturing simply grabbed the
straps from the parts bins and slapped them on the boat, and in
the whole process not a single engineer was consulted. I would
hope that this is the exception and not the rule.
hkrause
>
> hkrause wrote:
>
> > Take another look at that clapped out Bayliner at Pascoe's site.
> > Ignore the damage and the editorial commentary. Look at the photos.
> > Notice how the stringers are attached...1" fiberglass tape. Notice
> > that the damned stringers curve. Does this not tell you anything?
>
> Yes, it does. You appearantly missed the excellent post from Gould
> 0738. Just for you Harry:
>
> Gould 0738 wrote:
>
> > In case there are any NG subscribers who haven't kill filtered any
> > posts with the words Bayliner and Pascoe in them, I can add something
> > constructive here.
Sure, I saw it, Skippy. Show me the money. Show me the other sites that
prove that the construction depicted on that particular boat is not
duplicated on other boats the manufacturer offers.
Pascoe's site points out what he saw on that one boat. Can we assume all
the other boats of that model are built differently? Who knows? Do you?
Doubtful.
And how many other boats of that brand name have been opened up for
inspection or for photos? Where are the photos?
Marcus G Bell
> Subject: Bayliner Bashing
Folks, this is a continuation of another thread covering the same
topic. There is no need to change the subject line. As a service
to those who are trying to navigate the group, please do not
change subject lines unless the topic really has shifted away from
the original topic listed in the header. The practice of
increasing the number of unique subjects lines is objectionable to
some, and makes them more likely to object to the topics being
discussed and to the people discussing. It's probably not worth
it.
fr...@home.com
>
> I notice you sell boats, Fritzy. What motivates you to issue over 50
> Bayliner bashing posts each year. Anyone reviewing your posting history
> and making a rational assessment would find your Bayliner bashing
> comments obsessive. Would you care to share with us why you can't seem
> to find a way to stop flaming Bayliners and their owners?
Interesting you should ask Skippy, The reason I post is to add a little
balance to you. You see, I talk to a LOT of people who are buying or selling
boats, and if more knew what they were getting into before buying, I'm sure
their priorities in buying a boat would change. I also see patterns in boat
repairs because I know what work needs to be done on a boat prior to resale.
I have sold Bayliners as well, if a person knows the limitations up front
then all is is fair that is with any boat/brand.
Until you see a hazmat team surround a boat and evacuate an area
you have no idea how serous of an issue this is. And yes I have a friend in
the hazmat business.
. After a major expense like replacing the gas tank and the person seeing
what happens to their boat, the majority fix the boat and sell it. Kind of
like a person who totals a car and doesn't want it back. Even though it may
be fine structurally afterwards, people want out. Yes, tanks are replaced in
a lot of boats, Saw one replaced in a Cobalt, took an afternoon, no problem.
I suggest you review Pascoe's site with a little more thought, you may
discover what those wide open spaces are really costing you.
I have a value engineered car, it works fine, if there is a problem I pull
over to the side of the road. Can't do that with a boat, perhaps you can wade
back to shore, but some of us don't have that option.
Hope that clarifies things for you.
Skipper
> Skipper (ski...@dtc.net) wrote:
> > Subject: Bayliner Bashing
> Folks, this is a continuation of another thread covering the same
> topic. There is no need to change the subject line. As a service
> to those who are trying to navigate the group, please do not
> change subject lines unless the topic really has shifted away from
> the original topic listed in the header.
In Your Opinion. IMO, the subject DID change to Bayliner bashing and
David Pascoe's site and had nothing to do with fuel tanks. If you view
the thread, you will see how and when the subject changed. Threads that
change the subject 3 or 4 times but keep the old title are far more
distracting, IMO.
That said, I can see advantages to starting a thread titled 'Harry is an
SOB', a title that will not change, and proceeding to discuss sex on a
power boat.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Skipper wrote:
>> I notice you sell boats, Fritzy. What motivates you to issue over 50
>> Bayliner bashing posts each year.
> Interesting you should ask Skippy, The reason I post is to add a
> little balance to you. ...
> Hope that clarifies things for you.
It certainly does. Nothing wrong with honest on-topic disagreements.
They help us all to a better understanding of recreational boating. You
know, seperation of fact from Harry's fiction.
--
Skipper
Phoenix
So you are not concerned about your tank whatsoever?
--
--
Skipper wrote in message <snip
Skipper
>
> Skipper,
>
> So you are not concerned about your tank whatsoever?
I don't know about your "whatsoever" comment. However, the area around
the tank is always dry and I inspect the viewable portions of the tank
routinely. It's really not a concern for me on a 2252. Do you know
something about the 2252 fuel tank that I should be concerned about?
--
Skipper
Phoenix
different metal to tie down the tank. I didn't know that Bayliner was one
of the manu., but since it seems to be true, wouldn't it be wise to ask
them.
I don't know if you realize this but in the past I always said, Bayliner
boats meet a need in the marketplace and many people use them and enjoy
them. But if they are using stainless around an aluminum tank I would have
to say they aren't worth anything.
Your life might be on the line.....
PS you might believe that the gas tank ALWAYS stays dry, but if you are out
in the rail or chop, it doesn't.
--
--
Skipper wrote in message <36BB5E44...@dtc.net>...
Skipper
> Boat/US has done an article about gas tanks leaking, caused by using a
> different metal to tie down the tank. I didn't know that Bayliner was
> one of the manu., but since it seems to be true, wouldn't it be wise
> to ask them.
I don't remember saying the 2252 has a galvanic action problem with its
fuel tank and mounting hardware.
> I don't know if you realize this but in the past I always said,
> Bayliner boats meet a need in the marketplace and many people use them
> and enjoy them. But if they are using stainless around an aluminum
> tank I would have to say they aren't worth anything.
You are certainly welcome to your opinion and any circumstance you find
to vindicate that opinion.
> Your life might be on the line.....
> PS you might believe that the gas tank ALWAYS stays dry, but if you
> are out in the rail or chop, it doesn't.
Thank you for the observation. I'm sure you know my boat far better
than I do.
Again, thanks for the advice.
--
Skipper
Peter Kay
I kept my council, as I said I would via email. However, you don't seem to
be capable of keeping yours.
Therefore, why don't you take your ill-informed and nasty little mind to
another dimension, preferably somewhere far away from rec.boats, where it
won't cause any mind ache for those of us who wish to talk about the things
we love, and own, IE. BOATS
--
Regards,
Peter Kay
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
Skipper wrote in message <36BB4C28...@dtc.net>...
Skipper
>
> Skipper
> I kept my council, as I said I would via email. However, you don't
> seem to be capable of keeping yours.
> Therefore, why don't you take your ill-informed and nasty little mind
> to another dimension, preferably somewhere far away from rec.boats,
> where it won't cause any mind ache for those of us who wish to talk
> about the things we love, and own, IE. BOATS
What, and miss your wonderful on-topic posts? Naw, I'd rather comment
on your posts.
--
Skipper
Peter Kay
ISP as we speak.
"
Go fuck yourself asshole!!! You are one sorry mocking piece of shit!"
With a bit of luck he will be cut off ASAP.
--
Regards,
Peter
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
Skipper wrote in message <36BB76DD...@dtc.net>...
Popeye
>
> Yes, I do understand it, Fritzy. The 2252 does have an imbedded fuel
> tank with access to its fittings through the engine hatch cover.
> Inspection is actually quite easy and convenient. The bilge area where
> the tank is located has always been bone dry.
Of course it's bone dry.
Skippy's boat never gets wet.
Unless it rains.
Popeye
Rick
Peter Kay wrote in message <79fv82$p3p$1...@barcode.tesco.net>...
>I received the below as email from Skipper. Complaint winging its way to
his
>ISP as we speak.
>
>"
>Go fuck yourself asshole!!! You are one sorry mocking piece of shit!"
>
>With a bit of luck he will be cut off ASAP.
>--
>Regards,
>
>Peter
IMHO, anyone posting that kind of garbage has lost any credibility ( and I
have not been around long enough to know if he has or hasn't any) , however
the nature of the post likely speaks to the type of individual involved.
Rick
Dave Brown
> I received the below as email from Skipper. Complaint winging its way to his
> ISP as we speak.
>
> <gutter talk deleted>
Is this true, Skipper?
--
Regards,
Dave Brown
Brown's Marina
http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/
Eisboch
>
> OK, I tried ab...@dtc.net which bounced. Anyone any ideas who to complain
> to?
Peter,
Do me a favor. You are obviously hot under the collar, but
take a deep breath and consider for a moment.
In over a year of participating in this newsgroup, the individual
you are upset with has been quite controversial, the butt of a lot
of jokes, and has demonstrated some really weird positions on
issues. He has not,however, to my knowledge, ever lowered himself to
the level evidenced by your cited e-mail. The possibility exists
that he was framed. Maybe I am wrong, but let's hear from him before
he is 100% condemmed. There have been other examples of people
cleverly disquiseing their apparent identity and posing as someone
else. I just have not witnessed this level of communication from
the accused.
Eisboch
Skipper
> Peter Kay wrote:
> > I received the below as email from Skipper. Complaint winging its
> > way to his ISP as we speak.
> > <gutter talk deleted>
> Is this true, Skipper?
Did Peter Kay post gutter talk to a public forum? Sure looks like it.
But that and other flaming personal comments towards NG contributors is
not new to him, is it?
--
Skipper
G. Schnauzer
about the problem and perhaps installed the installation by accident, or
words to that effect.
--
G. Schnauzer
hkrause <hkr...@erols-nospam.com> wrote in message
news:36BB2C8B...@erols.com...
large snip
Del Cecchi
He posted gutter talk aleged to be email from you. I have decided you
are nothing but a jerk who contributes nothing. It is people like you
and the Iowegians who give bayliners a bad name.
del cecchi
G. Schnauzer
--
G. Schnauzer
Marcus G Bell <be...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:79fc8n$a5e$2...@netnews.upenn.edu...
>G. Schnauzer (giant...@ibm.net) wrote:
>> So what you are saying Marcus, is that Harry really believes
>> that the largest manufacturer of boats in North America,
>> possibly was not aware of the concept of galvanic corrosion.
>> Therefore the installation of an aluminum tank, with stainless
>> hold downs, with no insulating material between the two metals
>> was purely accidental.
>
>I'm not saying it's what he believes. I'm saying it's probably
>what he said.
OK lets agree he probably said it. Lord knows what he believes.
>
>> On the other hand, if you are right and Harry really thought
>> that and in fact the largest manufacturer of boats in North
>> America produces boats knowing they will see service in salt
>> water and their engineers have never heard of galvanic
>> corrosion, then that is a very frightening proposition.
>
>I am not frightened by what Harry thinks on this issue. I am more
>frightened by what the Bayliner engineers may or may not have been
>thinking, which is what Larry and Harry have both been getting
>at.
Is there an echo here? Isn't that what I said.
>
>Assuming Bayliner's smartboys DID know about galvanic corrosion,
>it is frightening to think that they would go ahead and install a
>fuel tank in such a way as to promote galvanic corrosion of the
>fuel tank.
Echo? Again, I thought that is what the words meant that I typed.
>
>It is also possible that the problem occurred on a single
>production run when someone in purchasing got a deal on stainless
>steel straps, and the guys in manufacturing simply grabbed the
>straps from the parts bins and slapped them on the boat, and in
>the whole process not a single engineer was consulted. I would
>hope that this is the exception and not the rule.
Anything is possible. However, I say again, if a manufacturer is willing to
use cheap materials where the buyer can see them, why would one assume high
quality materials are used where they are hidden?
hkrause
I got some pretty nasty EMAILs from him about two years ago. But I never
complained to his ISP.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
How can 1/4 oz. of chocolate become 4 lbs. of fat?
Peter Kay
there.
I don't mind verbal sparring on the NG with anyone but I'm not prepared to
accept this sort of garbage arriving in my email, my wife occasionally
checks for post from her daughter.
--
Regards,
Peter
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
Peter Kay wrote in message <79fv82$p3p$1...@barcode.tesco.net>...
>I received the below as email from Skipper. Complaint winging its way to
his
>ISP as we speak.
>
>"
>Go fuck yourself asshole!!! You are one sorry mocking piece of shit!"
>
>With a bit of luck he will be cut off ASAP.
>--
>Regards,
>
>Peter
K Smith
Peter,
You are right to be a tad ticked & an apology probably should have
followed after he'd calmed down but,
What are you going to complain about, someone in private (non
public, certainly not in the NG till you put it there) e-mail used bad
words.
In the heat of battle it seems people get tense, just like you are
now & do/say things they probably shouldn't but in private, seemingly
responded to e-mail, it's just part of the rough & tumble so don't get too
puritanical.
I would post to Skipper's face that he shouldn't send e-mails like
that, no matter how upset at the time; but I'm on parole.
Hells bells we're still clearing up cannonballs from last week.
Karen.
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:37:01 -0000, "Peter Kay" <p...@nospamtesco.net> wrote:
>I received the below as email from Skipper. Complaint winging its way to his
>ISP as we speak.
>
Snip.
K Smith
I sympathise naturally, but Bayliner are not the most upmarket boat
available but this is reflected in the price, new or particularly
secondhand. Did you buy it new?
Whilst there will always be a better built boat it is after all a
93 model & 6 yrs old. If you bought a cheap, mass produced, very
affordable, structurally sound, as safe as any regulations require, car
well yes after 6 yrs I suspect things "might" start to go wrong, whereas
your neighbour who bought a Mercedes might & only might, not be getting
those problems, but he probably paid twice the price you did.
You're absolutely correct of course about the mixed metals etc. but
20/20 applies to nearly every similar failure, from your tank, to an
airplane crash, to lots of car & boat engine problems. Hopefully later
models have improved but if in doubt, buy another brand next time they
won't miss you. A bit like Ford, GM, Toyota, etc, etc.
Finally, before you go chasing probably the biggest manufacturer of
pleasurecraft, which are successfully exported worldwide, maybe consider
asking your repairer why or exactly how, it can cost US$4000 to lift the
floor & replace the tank, seems he might be making bulk noise about
Bayliner's faults to pad out his own little gouge.
Karen.
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:53:36 -0500, "David Galli" <dga...@pluto.njcc.com>
wrote:
>Has anyone had a problem with fuel tank deterioration in a Bayliner Trophy.
>I have a 1993 22' Trophy that apparently had slowly been leaking fuel into
>the bilge for about 2 years. It wasn't until after the tank completely gave
>way, that we found the problem. The fuel tank is "sealed" under the cockpit.
>Total cost of repairs is approaching $4000. When not in use the boat is kept
>in covered/dry storage. Bayliner says too bad. Need help in fighting this
>one.
>
>
Peter Kay
From ski...@dtc.net Fri Feb 05 22:52:58 1999
Received: from [206.242.217.15] (helo=DTC.NET)
by aisle with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
id 108u7O-0002LN-00
for p...@tesco.net; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:52:58 +0000
Received: from dtc.net (skipper.dtc.net [206.242.218.18]) by DTC.NET
(8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA25971 for <p...@tesco.net>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999
22:53:31 GMT
Message-ID: <36BB75EB...@dtc.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:51:23 -0600
From: Skipper <ski...@dtc.net>
Organization: Not really!
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Peter Kay <p...@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Bayliner Bashing
References: <79c5ep$611$1...@mars.njcc.com> <79ch9e$o9f$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
<36BB023B...@bellsouth.net> <36BB274C...@dtc.net>
<79fco9$a5e$3...@netnews.upenn.edu> <36BB4C28...@dtc.net>
<79fqg7$pdl$1...@epos.tesco.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--
Regards,
Peter
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
Wally wrote in message >On Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:02:08 -0000,
>Post the full header from the e-mail.
>--
>Wally --> reply to: elvez<!>mindspring<!>com
Peter Kay
As I said, I don't mind verbal sparring on the NG but my wife checks the
email from time to time. I think if this was sent via land mail in this
country, it would be illegal.
Someone has been good enough to email the phone number of his ISP, their
comments on abusive email would be interesting!
--
Regards,
Peter
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
K Smith wrote in message <36bbc0cb...@news.webrider.net.au>...
Peter Kay
I hadn't up 'til now, see the email header I posted and decide for yourself.
--
Regards,
Peter
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
Eisboch wrote in message <36BB8E...@vptec.com>...
<snip>
Marcus G Bell
> >> On the other hand, if you are right and Harry really thought
> >> that and in fact the largest manufacturer of boats in North
> >> America produces boats knowing they will see service in salt
> >> water and their engineers have never heard of galvanic
> >> corrosion, then that is a very frightening proposition.
Marcus wrote:
> > I am not frightened by what Harry thinks on this issue. I am
> > more frightened by what the Bayliner engineers may or may not
> > have been thinking, which is what Larry and Harry have both
> > been getting at.
G. Schnauzer (giant...@ibm.net) wrote:
> Is there an echo here? Isn't that what I said.
You said "...if... Harry really thought that... then that is a
very frightening proposition." It seemed like your focus was on
what Harry thought. For indeed it seemed you missed his point the
first time through, and it seemed you were seeking further
clarification in the quoted text. But OOPS I missed that "and" in
the "and in fact" phrase, which does change the meaning slightly,
from "if A thought B then C" to "if A thought and if B then C". My
apologies.
> > Assuming Bayliner's smartboys DID know about galvanic
> > corrosion, it is frightening to think that they would go ahead
> > and install a fuel tank in such a way as to promote galvanic
> > corrosion of the fuel tank.
> Echo? Again, I thought that is what the words meant that I
> typed.
Well, I thought you were trying to clarify what Harry thought.
Anyway, my points were the same as yours, clarified, reinforced
them, and now we're just discussing who said what, when we should
maybe be focusing instead on what to say next.
> Anything is possible. However, I say again, if a manufacturer is
> willing to use cheap materials where the buyer can see them, why
> would one assume high quality materials are used where they are
> hidden?
I wouldn't assume. I would only hope. I'm a "glass half full" kind
of guy, but I'll measure the glass just to be sure.
Marcus G Bell
> Post the full header from the e-mail.
Right. Someone forged Skipper's identity about a year ago, and
more recently someone forged Harry's. However, header information
revealed who the forgers were likely to be in both cases, and at
the very least cast serious reasonable doubt that the forged
messages could have come from the real personalities.
I'm sorry that this is happening, whether a forgery or the real
thing.
Marcus G Bell
> OK, here is the header etc.
> From ski...@dtc.net Fri Feb 05 22:52:58 1999 Received: from
> [206.242.217....] (helo=DTC.NET) by aisle with esmtp (Exim 2.05
etc.
The only way for someone to forge it this well would be if they
had personally received email from Skipper and with great
expertise were somehow able to include his unique email header
information and suppress their own, including certain things which
are added in transit by the mail servers. You could not read this
newsgroup and get this information from Skipper's newsgroup
postings, so we could pretty much rule out a framejob by a random
newsgroup participant. It is thus either the real thing, or an
extremely, extremely well done fake based on information that
could only be gotten from having received email from Skipper prior
to this.
Sma4264
>more recently someone forged Harry's.
Also Skipper may say things many of us don't like (as we all do at one time or
another) but that just doesn't sound like him to me.
SA
blu...@twow.don't spam me.com
http://www.twow.com/bluefin/mothership.html
Help Find Rachel Newhouse Goto http://www.gracenote.com/rachel
Sma4264
It does look pretty convincing.
Peter Kay
Not to mention the fact that he didn't even bothered to deny sending the
email when Dave Brown asked him directly.
--
Regards,
Peter
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
Marcus G Bell wrote in message <79gl6g$o9$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
<snip>
Eisboch
>
> Eisboch
> I hadn't up 'til now, see the email header I posted and decide for yourself.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Peter
Ok - I copied both your header post and the one from a recent
Skipper post to the newsgroup into a word document and then
compared every line. I think the proof is there, ie.
your e-mail header resolves:
Received: from dtc.net (skipper.dtc.net [206.242.218.18]) by DTC.NET
and his recent NG post resolves:
X-Real-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.242.218.18
I know of no way to "fake" this, as it is automatically generated
in a transparent manner by the user.
Skipper, I find you quilty. An apology is in order.
Eisboch
Peter Kay
complaint, not necessarily to the right dept. but I'm sure it will find it's
way to the right people.
--
Regards,
Peter
Remove nospam to email
"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>
Peter Kay wrote in message <79g0jl$qa2$1...@barcode.tesco.net>...
K Smith
No bill here, I agree Skipper shouldn't have lost it like that.
As for the actual language itself, as opposed to the sentiment,
it's something you'll come across in most Movies, at the pub, on the wharf
etc. these days.
The not so underlying message, to you of all people in this group,
is the real problem.
Now if it were to me.....
Karen.
On Sat, 6 Feb 1999 04:55:07 -0000, "Peter Kay" <p...@nospamtesco.net> wrote:
>Karen
>As I said, I don't mind verbal sparring on the NG but my wife checks the
>email from time to time. I think if this was sent via land mail in this
>country, it would be illegal.
>Someone has been good enough to email the phone number of his ISP, their
>comments on abusive email would be interesting!
>
>--
>Regards,
>
>Peter
>Remove nospam to email
>
>"The sky is raining fishes, it's a mutation zoo
>Going down Damnation Alley? Well good luck to you"
>>
hkrause
Ahh. Clever word play. Love it!
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Famous Last Words: "I JUST DRANK WHAT!!??"
fr...@home.com
drif...@nospamwebrider.net.au (K Smith) wrote:
> You're absolutely correct of course about the mixed metals etc. but
> 20/20 applies to nearly every similar failure, from your tank, to an
> airplane crash, to lots of car & boat engine problems. Hopefully later
> models have improved but if in doubt, buy another brand next time they
> won't miss you. A bit like Ford, GM, Toyota, etc, etc.
I have seen earlier models, the tank was installed with rubber straps
glued to the hull and tank, Corrosion occured to the tank from being mounted
in the belly of the hull. FYI-
>
> Finally, before you go chasing probably the biggest manufacturer of
> pleasurecraft, which are successfully exported worldwide, maybe consider
> asking your repairer why or exactly how, it can cost US$4000 to lift the
> floor & replace the tank, seems he might be making bulk noise about
> Bayliner's faults to pad out his own little gouge.
Karen,
Your description is a little simplistic. The jobs I have seen are HUGE!
bulkheads have to be cut away, engine and sterndrive removed, floor removed
head floor wall removed, This is a big ugly job and labor intensive
(At least on the 25+ models I have seen. )
Ray
Relax- Take a San Diego Cyber Cruise!
www.sdboats.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
hkrause
>
> In article <36bbc134...@news.webrider.net.au>,
> drif...@nospamwebrider.net.au (K Smith) wrote:
>
> > You're absolutely correct of course about the mixed metals etc. but
> > 20/20 applies to nearly every similar failure, from your tank, to an
> > airplane crash, to lots of car & boat engine problems. Hopefully later
> > models have improved but if in doubt, buy another brand next time they
> > won't miss you. A bit like Ford, GM, Toyota, etc, etc.
>
> I have seen earlier models, the tank was installed with rubber straps
> glued to the hull and tank, Corrosion occured to the tank from being mounted
> in the belly of the hull. FYI-
> >
> > Finally, before you go chasing probably the biggest manufacturer of
> > pleasurecraft, which are successfully exported worldwide, maybe consider
> > asking your repairer why or exactly how, it can cost US$4000 to lift the
> > floor & replace the tank, seems he might be making bulk noise about
> > Bayliner's faults to pad out his own little gouge.
>
> Karen,
> Your description is a little simplistic. The jobs I have seen are HUGE!
> bulkheads have to be cut away, engine and sterndrive removed, floor removed
> head floor wall removed, This is a big ugly job and labor intensive
> (At least on the 25+ models I have seen. )
>
> Ray
>
> Relax- Take a San Diego Cyber Cruise!
> www.sdboats.com
It's more than a little simplistic. When a boat manufacturer doesn't
design in an access panel so you can get to the fuel tank in a small
boat, you're talking about hours of sawing through glass, underlay and
structural members, plus re-assembling of same.
Skipper
> I got some pretty nasty EMAILs from him about two years ago. But I
> never complained to his ISP.
That's not quite true, is it Harry? Do you remember being convinced
that I was bombing your e-mail. My ISP received your complaint and
found it very humorous. What did they tell you, Harry?
--
Skipper
hkrause
Read for content, Slippy. I said I got some "pretty nasty" emails from
you, not that you had "bombed" my inbox. "Pretty nasty" refers to
content, not quantity.
Where this string goes is up to you, Skippy. You sent a pretty nasty
email to someone here, something that was uncalled for, and, instead of
apologizing, you have complained that your addressee posted it.
If you don't want your nasty email posted, don't send it. Or, better
yet, send it to yourself.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Quit worrying about your health, it'll go away.
Phoenix
When are you going on your trip to Lake Powell, how long is it going to be
and what are your plans?
--
--
Jim
If only women came with pull-down menus and on-line help!
Skipper wrote in message <36BC582C...@dtc.net>...
Skipper
> Not to mention the fact that he didn't even bothered to deny sending
> the email when Dave Brown asked him directly.
A few words in response, Peter. You posted the following message to
rec.boats yesterday which I did not respond to in the NG as I believed
the message abusive and off-topic.
> I kept my council, as I said I would via email. However, you don't
> seem to be capable of keeping yours. Therefore, why don't you take
> your ill-informed and nasty little mind to another dimension,
> preferably somewhere far away from rec.boats, where it won't cause any
> mind ache for those of us who wish to talk about the things we love,
> and own, IE. BOATS.
I did however send you a PRIVATE e-mail response motivated by the above
message and your continual public mocking personal insults to me, which
I have repeatedly ignored. YOU choose to publish my private e-mail to
you in a public forum. Further, you claimed that the language was so
sensitive that it should be protected from your wife's eyes. However,
you had no reservation to post that language to a public forum.
I find your continued personal attacks abusive and actionable. Your
posting of private e-mail to a public forum is also worthy of complain
to your ISP. Your current attempt to inflict additional personal damage
by complaining to my ISP is also troublesome. You will not find a track
record of personal attacks from me to you. I have tried to ignore your
off-topic rantings.
--
Skipper
Eisboch
>
> I find your continued personal attacks abusive and actionable. Your
> posting of private e-mail to a public forum is also worthy of complain
> to your ISP. Your current attempt to inflict additional personal damage
> by complaining to my ISP is also troublesome. You will not find a track
> record of personal attacks from me to you. I have tried to ignore your
> off-topic rantings.
>
> --
> Skipper
Skipper, I sincerely believe you need about a year away from
a computer and cyber communications.
Eisboch
Skipper
> Skipper,
> When are you going on your trip to Lake Powell, how long is it going
> to be and what are your plans?
Current plan is to leave May 19 and return May 31. We will be staying
at Wahweap 21st-24th, Defiance 25th-27th, and Wahweap 28th-29th. Basic
plan is to explore the canyons of Lake Powell and the areas Anazazi
ruins. We are also taking the float trip from Glenn Canyon Dam to Lee's
Ferry.
--
Skipper
hkrause
>
> Peter Kay wrote:
>
> > Not to mention the fact that he didn't even bothered to deny sending
> > the email when Dave Brown asked him directly.
>
> A few words in response, Peter. You posted the following message to
> rec.boats yesterday which I did not respond to in the NG as I believed
> the message abusive and off-topic.
>
> > I kept my council, as I said I would via email. However, you don't
> > seem to be capable of keeping yours. Therefore, why don't you take
> > your ill-informed and nasty little mind to another dimension,
> > preferably somewhere far away from rec.boats, where it won't cause any
> > mind ache for those of us who wish to talk about the things we love,
> > and own, IE. BOATS.
>
> I did however send you a PRIVATE e-mail response motivated by the above
> message and your continual public mocking personal insults to me, which
> I have repeatedly ignored. YOU choose to publish my private e-mail to
> you in a public forum. Further, you claimed that the language was so
> sensitive that it should be protected from your wife's eyes. However,
> you had no reservation to post that language to a public forum.
>
> posting of private e-mail to a public forum is also worthy of complain
> to your ISP. Your current attempt to inflict additional personal damage
> by complaining to my ISP is also troublesome. You will not find a track
> record of personal attacks from me to you. I have tried to ignore your
> off-topic rantings.
>
> --
> Skipper
And, as the sun fades in the West, we are once again exposed to Skipper,
his violent temper and his total unwillingness to apoligize for acting
like an ass.
I guess he's sort of the Mike Tyson of SE Kansas.
Without the punch.
Or wit.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Always make allowance for the "duh" factor.
hkrause
>
> Skipper wrote:
> >
> > I find your continued personal attacks abusive and actionable. Your
> > posting of private e-mail to a public forum is also worthy of complain
> > to your ISP. Your current attempt to inflict additional personal damage
> > by complaining to my ISP is also troublesome. You will not find a track
> > record of personal attacks from me to you. I have tried to ignore your
> > off-topic rantings.
> >
> > --
> > Skipper
>
> a computer and cyber communications.
>
> Eisboch
It's just more of Skippy's ravings...he himself has posted private email
to a newsgroup. Personally, I think someday we're going to see headlines
out of SE Kansas about a yokel with a boat trailer breakdown on the side
of the Interstate, taking shots with his flaregun at passing Kansas
Highway Patrol officers.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Found 65536 bytes in 8 chains - convert to taglines? Y/N
hkrause
That's pretty big water for a boat like yours. Better bring along a Type
I PFD. Bring two...one for you, one for your boat. And don't forget to
arrange with the Air Force for a mid-lake refueling.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Never eat prunes when you are famished.
Skipper
> Read for content, Slippy. I said I got some "pretty nasty" emails from
> you, not that you had "bombed" my inbox. "Pretty nasty" refers to
> content, not quantity.
> Where this string goes is up to you, Skippy. You sent a pretty nasty
> email to someone here, something that was uncalled for, and, instead
> of apologizing, you have complained that your addressee posted it.
> If you don't want your nasty email posted, don't send it. Or, better
> yet, send it to yourself.
Pretty holy, Harry. Are you saying YOU have not sent such e-mail
nastygrams?
--
Skipper
Phoenix
it is going to be and how silly it is to let a newsgroup discussion to get
you all up in arms.
Thank god winter is almost over. I think we all are going batty being
locked up inside.... and I live in GA , can you imagine what it must be like
for the Canucks.
--
--
Jim
If only women came with pull-down menus and on-line help!
Skipper wrote in message <36BC666A...@dtc.net>...
hkrause
Which part is holy? Paragraph 1, 2 or 3. In paragraph 1, I corrected a
false impression you gave. In Paragraph 2, I stated the visible
facts--that you sent someone obnoxious email, they posted it and you're
upset by that, but not by the fact you sent someone a nastygram. In
Paragraph 3, I suggested to you a methodology so that your nasty email
isn't posted here in the future.
And no, Skippy, my EMAIL nastygrams aren't anything like yours. You
can't write; I can.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Dave Witte
Skipper wrote in message <36BC68A3...@dtc.net>...
>hkrause wrote:
>
>> Read for content, Slippy. I said I got some "pretty nasty" emails from
>> you, not that you had "bombed" my inbox. "Pretty nasty" refers to
>> content, not quantity.
>
>> Where this string goes is up to you, Skippy. You sent a pretty nasty
>> email to someone here, something that was uncalled for, and, instead
>> of apologizing, you have complained that your addressee posted it.
>
>> If you don't want your nasty email posted, don't send it. Or, better
>> yet, send it to yourself.
>
>Pretty holy, Harry. Are you saying YOU have not sent such e-mail
>nastygrams?
>
>--
>Skipper
Skipper,
This reminds me of some motherisms that seem very applicable here. Let me
know if your Mom ever used any of these and whether you think they might
apply now:
If your friends jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, would you do it too?
Two wrongs don't make a right
You're going to poke your eye out with that thing (okay not applicable but
Mom always said it)
Skipper if you sent the email, do the right thing, apologize! It doesn't
sound like your normal behavior and I'm sure that looking back you know it
wasn't right no matter how angry you were.
Blue Skies,
Dave
hkrause
>
>
> (v) The magazine readers see something that says it's not good the mix
> metals & even gather in a superficial understanding of why, then they can
> decalare it to the group. In the real world everything is a compromise
> between strength/weight/price & longevity so before you wax lyricle about
> mixing metals, take a look at any OB or IB/OB, just looking at it you'll
> see lots of SS bolts screwed/tapped straight into aluminium where they are
> actually below the waterline & above you'll find (brand/model depends)
> plated mild steel bolts tapped direct into aluminium.
> The engine OEM's clearly know about corrosion & do what they can to
> mitigate it but even so; it is still the most cost effective way of
> achieving a joint of sufficient strength for the job.
>
You need to read a few magazines, brown eyes.
An I/O or outboard with stainless parts can be easily disassembled. Fuel
tanks typically cannot be easily accessed, which is why it is up to the
manufacturer to pick parts and hardware that will endure in a salt water
environment.
You seem to have a problem with people who get some of their information
from magazines. I don't know where you get some or all of your
information, but I've noted in the last few weeks that what you post
seems based on glittering generalities, not on today's technology.
What's your C.V.? How many modern outboards have you disassembled into
pieces and parts lately? How many small pleasure boats have you ripped
apart to examine their fuel tanks?
That many?
Doubtful.
Skipper
> No matter how many wrongs get involved, there will never be a "right"
> in this situation.
> First wrong: Sending an obscene e-mail. ...
I think watching a 1 hour George Carlin special would add some needed
perspective here. Mr. Carlin has a special talent in dealing with
perspective, hypocrisy, and reality.
> Second wrong: posting a private e-mail. ...
Third wrong: History of off-topic mocking personally insulting posts
towards a NG contributor. These flames were not responded to in the NG
as they would only take down the off-topic road that this thread has
experienced.
--
Skipper
Gould 0738
situation.
First wrong: Sending an obscene e-mail. There's no language in that e-mail that
you won't hear at a sporting event someplace, but it's still considered a
serious breach of decorum to write something like that down and send it. Too
bad, too. Without an adamant denial from Skipper or any evidence to the
contrary, it would seem like he could indeed have sent it. He's normally above
doing something like that, I think, in spite of his penchant for taking
controversial positions on things.
Second wrong: posting a private e-mail. Peter was not the first to do this, in
fact Skipper on one or two occasions has posted e-mail he received from me.
It's still not right , no matter.
It would have been sufficient to state: I received a disturbing e-mail from
XXXX
that contained a number of porfane words and
I am reporting him to his ISP. Or to just report
the e-mail and not mention it publicly.
There's a wiggly little line that's pretty hard to see drawn between posting a
private e-mail verbatim and summarizing the contents of it.
I have done the latter.
We're like a little electronic town here. We have all kinds of charcters in our
town. When a neighbor screws up in our electronic town, it has the same effect
that a similar thing going on in a real town would have. If I lived in a small
town and did a really embarrasing thing,
I would hope that my friends and neighbors
would eventually forgive and forget....
(apologizing would be a good first step in that direction)...so that I wasn't
so permanently ostracized that it was neccesary to move out.
Agree or disagree with him; Skipper is one of the town characters....
The question is "is the community in general
above getting involved in the mud slinging going on down at the corner?" I
bet so.
K Smith
(i) Many brands of boats in this size range & much much larger have the
tank, "glassed" in under the floor/deck, such that removal/replacement is a
cut & re-glass job. (in some bigger boats, say big Hatteras you "sometimes"
chose to get to them through the deck/bulkhead etc., because it's better
than removing all the machinery) It's not just related to Bayliner, but yes
given the choice I totally agree better access is always desirable.
(ii) SS tanks deteriorate also (mainly where they're welded) so it's a
question of when, not if a metal tank will fail.
(iii) The mixing of SS directly against aluminium is again clearly not
desirable. The USL codes require a certain strength for tank mountings in
commercially used boats, small manufacturers of non commercial small boats
don't in the main need to worry too much about it (that's why if you order
the same boat but for commercial use/registration, the price goes up
dramatically) but big organisations like Brunswick can't afford the legal
risk so I'm guessing they chose SS straps for their strength & yes probably
did compromise on the long term life of the tank.
(iv) It's OK for the inexperienced with some idealogical position to
maintain, to give advice that will just cost the original poster more
grief, but the reality is that after 6 yrs an aluminium tank is a possible
(only possible) problem anyway & the OEM might (again only might) have the
USCG on their side.
(v) The magazine readers see something that says it's not good the mix
metals & even gather in a superficial understanding of why, then they can
decalare it to the group. In the real world everything is a compromise
between strength/weight/price & longevity so before you wax lyricle about
mixing metals, take a look at any OB or IB/OB, just looking at it you'll
see lots of SS bolts screwed/tapped straight into aluminium where they are
actually below the waterline & above you'll find (brand/model depends)
plated mild steel bolts tapped direct into aluminium.
The engine OEM's clearly know about corrosion & do what they can to
mitigate it but even so; it is still the most cost effective way of
achieving a joint of sufficient strength for the job.
(vi) This is not a 25ft+ model & tanks along with rotted floors/transoms
etc. are not an uncommon replacement job in many brands of boats this size.
The cost just seemed a lot of money to me for a tank only replacement, so
it was my way of querying if the price for the job is what is nomal where
he is, I guess he got several "quotes"?
Karen.
On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 12:50:13 GMT, fr...@home.com wrote:
>In article <36bbc134...@news.webrider.net.au>,
> drif...@nospamwebrider.net.au (K Smith) wrote:
>
>> You're absolutely correct of course about the mixed metals etc. but
>> 20/20 applies to nearly every similar failure, from your tank, to an
>> airplane crash, to lots of car & boat engine problems. Hopefully later
>> models have improved but if in doubt, buy another brand next time they
>> won't miss you. A bit like Ford, GM, Toyota, etc, etc.
>
>I have seen earlier models, the tank was installed with rubber straps
>glued to the hull and tank, Corrosion occured to the tank from being mounted
>in the belly of the hull. FYI-
>>
>> Finally, before you go chasing probably the biggest manufacturer of
>> pleasurecraft, which are successfully exported worldwide, maybe consider
>> asking your repairer why or exactly how, it can cost US$4000 to lift the
>> floor & replace the tank, seems he might be making bulk noise about
>> Bayliner's faults to pad out his own little gouge.
>
>Karen,
>Your description is a little simplistic. The jobs I have seen are HUGE!
>bulkheads have to be cut away, engine and sterndrive removed, floor removed
>head floor wall removed, This is a big ugly job and labor intensive
>(At least on the 25+ models I have seen. )
>
>Ray
>
>
>Relax- Take a San Diego Cyber Cruise!
>www.sdboats.com
>
dcar...@my-dejanews.com
"Peter Kay" <p...@nospamtesco.net> wrote:
> I received the below as email from Skipper. Complaint winging its way to his
> ISP as we speak.
>
Doing my best Jerry Springer immitation.....
> Go BLEEP yourself BLEEP!!! You are one sorry mocking piece of BLEEP!"
Boy, you must have twisted his nipple pretty good to receive that. What did
you do, say something silly like Bayliner's are #2?
David Carlile
Classic Wooden Boats
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8110
Steve Shelikoff
>
> Skipper wrote:
> >
> > Phoenix wrote:
> >
> > > Skipper,
> >
> > > When are you going on your trip to Lake Powell, how long is it going
> > > to be and what are your plans?
> >
> > Current plan is to leave May 19 and return May 31. We will be staying
> > at Wahweap 21st-24th, Defiance 25th-27th, and Wahweap 28th-29th. Basic
> > plan is to explore the canyons of Lake Powell and the areas Anazazi
> > ruins. We are also taking the float trip from Glenn Canyon Dam to Lee's
> > Ferry.
> >
> > --
> > Skipper
>
> I PFD. Bring two...one for you, one for your boat. And don't forget to
> arrange with the Air Force for a mid-lake refueling.
I think you mean the Navy giving him an under-way replenishment.
Steve
--
/ / /
\ \ \ mailto:shel...@averstar.com
/ / /
hkrause
I can just seem him, towing his inflatable behind him, the inflatable
filled with five gallon jerry cans...
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Out to lunch - If not back by 5, out to dinner also.
hkrause
Even worse, Skippy made a couple of comma errors. Can't blame it on
Kansas, though, because I got my first degree in that state.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Mars needs women - no experience necessary!
Skipper
> Doing my best Jerry Springer immitation.....
>> Go BLEEP yourself BLEEP!!! You are one sorry mocking piece of
>> BLEEP!"
> Boy, you must have twisted his nipple pretty good to receive that.
> What did you do, say something silly like Bayliner's are #2?
>
> David Carlile
> Classic Wooden Boats
May the worm alert save your hull. :-)
--
Skipper
dcar...@my-dejanews.com
Sorry, no worm problem up here in the frigid Northern waters. One of the
advantages, if there are any at all, of being in New England.
David Carlile
Classic Wooden Boats