Hobie 18 pointers?
Steve Blaes
My experience is limited to the Hobie 14 class, and I would like to hear
some tips on what areas to investigate carefully on a used 18.
Also, if you think a Nacra, Prindle, or whatever, is a better
alternative, what are the areas to check on them?
Price information would be a bonus...the market here is small so I don't
have a good idea what is good, bad, or ugly.
Please Email responses-thanks in advance
Steve Blaes
(Bl...@char.vnet.net)
Jon Saulsgiver
Steve Blaes writes:
>I am interested in buying a catamaran along the lines of a Hobie 18.
<munch>
>some tips on what areas to investigate carefully on a used 18.
Well, first of all, the older boats are considerably heavier, better constructed,
and less likely to have structural problems, besides often being very inexpensive.
Generally, if you want to go racing, the older boats aren't that competitive in all
conditions. But if you want to go sail across a Great Lake or do the Northwest
Passage, get an older boat. And get one with the intact mast, not a CompTip! I've
seen too many problems with the plastic masts to want one out in the middle of the
Straight of Georgia or middle of a big lake. Be sure to watch out for wires, though,
as the CompTip won't be there to save the day... (my personal soap box, sorry!)
Paul Ullibari and crew didn't use them when they did Prince Rupert to Vancouver, even
though they were available at the time...there aren't many wires up there, either.
Around late '85, and into '86 the Coleman Co. owned Coast Catamaran, and decided
that the class minimum weights didn't matter much, and the boats got mysteriously
lighter. The manufacturer eventually admitted to changing the construction methods
and "using less materials" to build the boats, and that's also when boats started
breaking...at least three 18s in the local fleet (295) have at least one new hull.
Inspect the area around the forward crossbar, especially up under the deck lip, for
stress cracks. Make sure you look on the inside deck lip, too. Crawl under and check
the bottom of the hull for wear, and be aware that the 18 has less material to wear
away than the 16 does, where they get dragged onto the beach.
Check the hull alignment and dolphin striker tension. Look for deformation at the
mast base casting on the middle of the front crossbar. Ask fleet members about the
boat, too, if you can. Check the bows for repairs...it's easy to run into some 16C
at the leward mark....ask me how I know!
I've got an '82 Hobie 18, very nice shape, "Smokin'" colors (blues, yellow, white)
that I'll be selling soon, all the goodies (real EPO rudders, Harken, Oschen jib
blocks, nice trailer w/box, etc) Asking $3,000... FYI
Jon Saulsgiver
JAK
writes:
>Also, if you think a Nacra, Prindle, or whatever, is a better
>alternative, what are the areas to check on them?
Steve,
As you look at the Hobies and Nacras take a look at a Supercat 17 or
19XL. Supercat builds the finest boat available in my opinion. The
boats are fast, durable and beautifully simple.
Think about this as you decide what boat is best for you. I shared this
commentary with the group in a previous conversation. I think it sill
applies.
The Supercat design philosophy is to eliminate all of the unnecessary
gimmicky go-fast controls so the sailor can concentrate on what is
important, sailing. Sailing is like an art form, like dancing a ballet.
Sailing well is a skill that must be developed and rehearsed. You cannot
short-cut the process. A sailor cannot be made an instant winner by
putting more controls on a boat. In fact my experience has been the
opposite. The extra controls only serves to slow an individual because
of the added confusion. Sailing with a deck full of controls dulls the
senses and clutters the mind. While tending to an outhaul, a barberhauler
a rotation device or all at them at once a sailor can miss the subtle
benefits of even the smallest puff. Sailing is an experience of the
senses. The boat should be an extension of oneself not their home
computer. As an example, I have a friend that just sold his Supercat 17
because he just bought a Nacra 5.5. He had been convinced that he needed
to move up and the 5.5 is supposedly step up. Just this past Saturday he
showed me a chart he had copied and laminated to place on the boat. He
was very proud of his effort. It was an letter size page of control
settings recommended in a recent Sailing World article on sailing the
Nacra. The page was crammed full of settings for a myriad controls. As
he described his control chart to me his expression went from pride to
concern and apology because he had realized that he was going to have a
handful to deal with when he was out on the lake. I cannot imagine that
he or anyone can be very effective with so many things to think about on
the boat.
Now, this is not all to say that Supercat buries its head in the sand
when it comes to new controls and innovations, on the contrary. Supercat
is an innovation leader. The new Supercat 22 is a testament to that. It
was nominated to Sailing World Magazine!s Boat of the year award in the
performance Multihull category. It finished second only to the Dragonfly
2000, a completely different class of boat. The other boat companies
have not understood this concept yet. Instead they choose to chase the
marketing add-ons and as a result they compromise the original design
intent.
In this age of diversity I can appreciate the differences in each of the
different boat designs available. Each design appeals to different
individuals tastes. In my opinion the Supercat line of boats stands out
as a boat for the individual who is more sophisticated about sailing.
The person that appreciates quality, simplicity, and thoughtful, proven
design.
As you can see I am very passionate about these boats. I have sailed
them for 10 years. I have also sailed some of the other boat designs.
What concerns me and is the basis for these comments is the
misinformation about what is important for catamaran sailing. I sail
with a very active open class catamaran fleet and have experienced and
observed the differences in performance, durability, satisfaction, and
resale value in each of the boat designs. I have also taught catamaran
sailing for almost ten years. It has been proven that all the complexity
does not necessarily make a faster boat. I like my Supercat.
For the past ten years I have sailed a Supercat 15. That boat will sail
head to head with the Hobie 16 and in Portsmouth Handicapped racing I
have regularly beaten the larger boats including Nacra 6.0s and Prindles.
The Supercat 17 is a tremendous boat is one that everyone must look at.
The boat is probably the best all around boat available. It is
affordable, simple and a real performer. I know of a couple of guys
locally that were on 17s that were consistently beating larger boats on a
boat for boat basis. Boats like Prindle 18-2, Prindle 19, Nacra 5.2.,
Nacra 5.8 etc. This year I will be sailing a boardless Supercat 19XL.
The guys on the Nacra 6.0s and 5.5s are worried. I think you should give
the Supercat line deep consideration.
E mail me if you would like to discuss this further. I can tell you how
to contact Matrix Marine, the builders of Supercat Catamarans.
Jon A. Kirschhoffer /
jakirsc...@mmm.com / These comments reflect my opinions
3M Company, St. Paul MN. / and not the opinions of 3M
John F. Hughes
>In article <2r15p1$e...@char.vnet.net> Steve Blaes, bl...@char.vnet.net
>writes:
>>Also, if you think a Nacra, Prindle, or whatever, is a better
>>alternative, what are the areas to check on them?
>
>Steve,
>As you look at the Hobies and Nacras take a look at a Supercat 17 or
>19XL. Supercat builds the finest boat available in my opinion. The
>boats are fast, durable and beautifully simple.
Also, consider the marketing hype. Back when I was sailing my Tornado
on SF Bay, I heard about these new "Supercats," which "could not be
pitchpoled." That's what the literature said. The facts said something
different: some folks sailing out of Richmond managed to pitchpole
the thing their first time out. Sure, it was windy...but it's often
windy on SF Bay...
>
>
>The Supercat design philosophy is to eliminate all of the unnecessary
>gimmicky go-fast controls so the sailor can concentrate on what is
>important, sailing.
Let me take a wild guess as how we define "unnecessary" and "gimmicky":
the unneccesary and gimmicky controls are precisely those that appear
on boats other than the Supercats, but not on the Supercats, right?
As I think of my Tornado, there's cboard, traveller, mainsheet,
outhaul, jibsheet, jibsheet sheeting point (fore-aft and athwartships),
barber hauler, mast tiller, jib luff tension, and in the "static" category,
there are batten tension, mast rake, and various part of the rudder
configuration. I'm sure that some of these would be deemed "unnecessary,"
by almost anyone. And in a 1-design class, they are virtually
*all* unnecessary: if the class rules them out, they aren't needed, right?
But someone who takes the stock boat and modifies it by adding some
of these control might well make it sail faster, right?
So in essence the argument comes down to this: "I want a fast boat
that takes the right amount of thought...and in my case this means
limiting the number of adjustments I can make." If the word "fast" were
omitted, I'd suggest that the comparable boat is the Sunfish. A very
competitive class( at least it once was), but one with minimal "controls."
> Sailing is like an art form, like dancing a ballet.
>Sailing well is a skill that must be developed and rehearsed. You cannot
>short-cut the process.
> A sailor cannot be made an instant winner by
>putting more controls on a boat.
I boat cannot be made an instant winner by removing them, either.
> In fact my experience has been the
>opposite. The extra controls only serves to slow an individual because
>of the added confusion.
When you beat Reg White, come back and tell us about it. Or is Reg White
dead? If so, it might make it a fairer race...
> Sailing with a deck full of controls dulls the
>senses and clutters the mind. While tending to an outhaul, a barberhauler
>a rotation device or all at them at once a sailor can miss the subtle
>benefits of even the smallest puff.
A *bad* sailor can miss the benefits of the smallest puff. A good sailor
makes the boat go fast by chasing puffs if necessary, and by tuning the
boat if necessary, and balances these needs because s/he knows which
will pay off the most in the conditions.
> Sailing is an experience of the senses.
Oh, wow.
>[...] I have a friend that just sold his Supercat 17
>because he just bought a Nacra 5.5.
>showed me a chart he had copied and laminated to place on the boat.
>[...] The page was crammed full of settings for a myriad controls.
>[...] I cannot imagine that
>he or anyone can be very effective with so many things to think about on
>the boat.
Then your imagination is limited.
[Nonsense deleted, including a reference to Sialing World's BOTY crap]
>[...] In my opinion the Supercat line of boats stands out
>as a boat for the individual who is more sophisticated about sailing.
"It's a simple domestic burgundy with no breeding, but I think you'll
be amused at its presumption." (probably misquoted...)
>The person that appreciates quality, simplicity, and thoughtful, proven
>design.
Yeah. That person will buy a Supercat right after s/he buys a Herreschoff
S Boat, a Bermuda 40, and Olson 30, and a Swan. Right.
>As you can see I am very passionate about these boats. I have sailed
>them for 10 years. I have also sailed some of the other boat designs.
I've sailed C-class cats, Tornadoes, Supercats, Hobies, and once even
an Aqua Cat. I have to say that I seriously believe that the Aqua
Cat is the best of the lot: simplicity itself, a careful design, based
on centuries of development, and with a rating that makes it just *deadly*
in an open class, if the poor thing can finish before the "expiration" time.
(grin)
>What concerns me and is the basis for these comments is the
>misinformation about what is important for catamaran sailing. I sail
>with a very active open class catamaran fleet and have experienced and
>observed the differences in performance, durability, satisfaction, and
>resale value in each of the boat designs. I have also taught catamaran
>sailing for almost ten years. It has been proven that all the complexity
>does not necessarily make a faster boat. I like my Supercat.
So let's make an imaginary boat, a supercat "with complexity." Now we adjust
all the "extra" controls so that the boat looks just like a supercat.
And then we neever touch them again. Aside from the slight extra weight,
this boat is essentially a supercat, right? So this thought-experiment
leads us to the conclusion that "complexity," at least if it's fairly
lightweight, does not make a *slower* boat. But since it's just possibly
imaginable that one of those controls might in some conditions make this
"complex" boat go faster than a supercat, I think that the right conclusion
might be "complex boats let the differences between good and bad skippers
be amplified."
-John
>head to head with the Hobie 16 and in Portsmouth Handicapped racing I
>have regularly beaten the larger boats including Nacra 6.0s and Prindles.
So what? You're racing against a formula, not a boat!
> The Supercat 17 is a tremendous boat is one that everyone must look at.
OK. I've looked.
>The boat is probably the best all around boat available.
Absolutely. I recommended it to two friends who wanted a fishing boat,
and to three who were going blue-water cruising. And the guy who
was planning to operate a Woods Hole/Nantucket ferry service has been
thanking me since the day I first mentioned it to him. (grin).
OK. All sarcasm aside, I think that the Supercats are a decent line
of catamarans. They're not the ultimate in sophistication (look at
the Patient Lady series, or the boats that eventually beat them in
the Little America's Cup to see a bit more about that...), even in
their hull design, and *certainly* not in their rig, but they seem
to be pretty solid, and have a somewhat active class. If I were
thinking about class racing, I'd probably consider one of the Hobie
lines, not because they're great boats, but because the class is
very active. As for excellence, simplicity, purity of design, and
all the other junk mentioned above, I've never seen a boat that
measures up to the gushing in this posting. I guess that at some level
the closest thing I've seen is in the boardsailing arena...but that's
a whole different kettle of fish.
-John
Paul Kamen
complains that my boat has "too many strings." My response, imitating
the line in that movie about Mozart, is "Which ones do you want me to
take off?" And that's where the conversation usually ends.
-"Call me Fishmeal"-
Bob Shepherd
stuff deleted
>Sailing is like an art form, like dancing a ballet.
>Sailing well is a skill that must be developed and rehearsed. You cannot
>short-cut the process. A sailor cannot be made an instant winner by
more stuff deleted
>In my opinion the Supercat line of boats stands out
>as a boat for the individual who is more sophisticated about sailing.
>The person that appreciates quality, simplicity, and thoughtful, proven
>design.
>
What were those terms for getting sick? I think I'm about to "chum the
keyboard".
Seriously though, the Supercat is a nice boat, easy to set up and sail, and
farily fast based on the Portsmouth ratings. I believe that the speed can
be attributed mainly to a good hull shape and a well thought out set of
sails, battons, mast, etc. As far as the simplicity making it faster, I'd
have to believe that the extra adjustments, which are available on other
brands, could make the Supercat even faster, allowing a competent sailor to
better rig the boat for particular wind and water conditions, and crew
weight.
My recommendation is to buy an inexpensive used cat to learn on, and to
procrastinate the decision of your ultimate boat until you have a better
idea what size and features you want.
Bob Shepherd
Supercat '19 "Bubba"
David C Shear
I owned a Hobie 16 for 7 years before I bought my Hobie 18 which I've now owned
for 7 years. I moved up to the 18 becuase of the high crew weight I carry
(me@230# +crew = way over 285# minimum limit). The Hobie 18 handles ocean sailing
and rough conditions better than a 16 and is difficult to pitchpole. A 16 is a good
boat for lighter crews and lake sailing. The roller furling jib on the 18 is great
when "parking" between races, waiting for the next one to start.
The only comparison I can make with Nacra & Prindle is the number of Hobies
in exisitance; lots more boats to race against, low-cost available parts and
initial cost of boat. Be aware that the other boats have higher performance
(faster, point better) if that's what you are interested in. In fact, Hobie's new
boat the Hobie 20' Miracle has many of the qualities that the Nacra &
Prindle have, but costs more than an 18.
What it boils down to is what type of sailing you're going to do
(pleasure or racing) where are you going to do it (lake or ocean) and your
size/crew weight. You should have no problems finding a used 18 in NC.
Check the local buyer's guide (Want Ad digerst in eastern NY) and phone
book for the local Hobie dealer. A used 18 in eastern NY goes for around $2-4k
depending on condition and trailer (Trailex aluminmum trailers are great if you
can find one).
Best o' luck and keep me posted
DCS
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David C. Shear
Information Management Services, Systems Analyst
GE Corporate Research & Development Center, Schenectady, N.Y.
sh...@crd.ge.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Schneider
>
> Steve,
> As you look at the Hobies and Nacras take a look at a Supercat 17 or
> 19XL. Supercat builds the finest boat available in my opinion. The
> boats are fast, durable and beautifully simple.
>
> The Supercat design philosophy is to eliminate all of the unnecessary
> gimmicky go-fast controls so the sailor can concentrate on what is
> important, sailing. ....
Followed by enough crap to gag on....
I own a Dart, also a simple boat, rigged with a 3 to 1 down haul, 2 sheets
and a traveler. I love the boat and highly recomend it..... BUT. The boat
has its niche.... In England and Europe Dart 18 is the most popular one
design class going while in the US, Dart racing is non exisitent. The
boat is geared for higher average wind speeds in Europe and is underpowered
for much of the US breezes. I weigh in a 200 lbs, Minimum crew weight is
260 lbs. It is tough to be competetive on this boat. On the other hand,
the boat sails beautifully, its simple to rig by yourself 30 minutes,
and weighs in at 260 lbs all up so that it is easy to move around with out
killing yourself. I single hand the boat in winds up to 25 very
comfortably. On the other hand, I can't take a crowd of people out. The
boat was USYRU saftey approved and very difficult to pitch pole. Simple is
good but it depends on what you want to do with your boat.
Best advice is to try to sail as many kinds of cats as you can and
carefully determine what you are looking for. ...
f you are into one design racing, then you are really looking at the
Hobie's... If your into olympic campaigning, go buy a Marstrom Tornado
for 15,000 grand and find a sailmaker to work with you. If your
significant other is not very experienced then consider what will happen
when you are coming into the beach with dagger boards down, and the stress
of who will get them up begins to build.... If you trailer to your launch
site, will the 32 foot tall mast of a 20 footer , be too much to handle
on a hazy hot humid Sunday night when the thunder heads are building. All
of these issues matter as much as how fast the boat is on the water.
By the way , I crewed on a SC 17, in breezes 12 to 17 mph. I thought the
boat was extremely wet. It was fastest with the bows down (wetter still)
but I thought it porposied a lot in the short chop. You can stuff the bows
of this thing, It didn't pitch pole, though, My skipper weighed in at
150, and I thought the boat didn't handle my weight real well up front,
I found the rounded hulls a little tough to stay glued to while on the
trap, and it has a large jib for a 17 footer, This boat would not be my
first choice, It certainly doesn't live up to the billing this other guy
gave it., It is much faster than my Dart 18, with its portsmouth number
of .730. A Nacra 5.2 might be a stronger choice for a 17 foot boat with
that amount of sail it rates faster at .720 and sailed beautifully in a 15
knots on the ocean during my test sail.....
As the true believer noted.. sailing does rely on your senses.... Trust
yours and sail several boats and then decide what suits your needs at that
time..... When you desire more, go buy a second boat. I did...
Good sailing..Darts and Mysteres. Mark Schneider.
--
L...@cu.nih.gov
D.J. Miller II
1994 15:57:46 GMT, j...@cs.brown.edu (John F. Hughes) writes:
[...]
> I've sailed C-class cats, Tornadoes, Supercats, Hobies, and once even
> an Aqua Cat. I have to say that I seriously believe that the Aqua
> Cat is the best of the lot: simplicity itself, a careful design, based
> on centuries of development, and with a rating that makes it just *deadly*
> in an open class, if the poor thing can finish before the "expiration" time.
> (grin)
(Arriving just in time to push the subject further off course, away from the
nasty line it was taking.)
Aqua Cat, oh boy! You *must* be talking about that thing that looks like a
double-sized folding cot with *little* pontoons on it. There's one parked at
the marina where we keep our boat. We did see it on the water once, but it
wasn't moving much. Two of the three occupants (the human ones; the dog
didn't seem interested) were involved in trying to get the "mast" back up.
How is that thing supposed to be rigged, anyway? Looking at it on the trailer
(with most of the parts present), it appears to have some kind of unstayed
bipod to hold up the sail. Do they ever actually go at all? Even if not,
they do have one redeeming quality: the manufacturer's logo is a scream. (I
really wish I could reproduce it here.) It's this stylized cat's head (i.e,
*kitty* cat, rendered round, mean, and 50's futuristic) glaring at you with
two arms projecting from the bottom at 135 and 225 degrees. Indeed a deadly
competitor. =8^)
--
____________________________________________________________
James Miller in Austin, Texas
Internet: jam...@bga.com (198.3.118.20)
alternate: jam...@wixer.bga.com (198.3.118.3)
____________________________________________________________
Jon Saulsgiver
hey, the man loves his boat! I've seen some Supercats going reeeealy fast, too!
Several of my friends have sailed the Supercat 20, and I have to admit the boats
are impressive. The look of one coming or going with their "half-the-channel" beam
is pretty amazing. But, that span can also be a problem in certain conditions, too.
I was sailing in a distance race in Lake Erie three years ago (64 miles, Erie PA to
Angola, NY) where Tom Tannert (then USYRU area E multihull) was sailing a SC20 and
broke the forward crossbar. He said the short, steep Lake Erie waves were at fault.
The torque stresses sheared the tube, but fortunately for them, the ends mushroomed
together and the boat stayed mostly intact. The other guy, who sailed his mostly in
Chautauqua Lake didn't have any problems, though.
Personally, I think there's a balance to be struck wrt controls. I sail a Hobie 18,
and wish it had a jib barberhauler (I hear a collective "amen!" from all those who've
crewed the H18!). I just shake my head when I see boats like the Soling, with what
looks like enough controls to keep the average 747 pilot busy...
As a sailor becomes more familiar with sail shaping techniques, the more strings make
sense. A really simple plan is fine, but limited.
The bottom line is what works for you.
Jon Saulsgiver
Paul Kamen
other body parts, too!)
Before the hobie arrived on the scene, if you wanted an off-the-beach
cat, that was the only game in town. It could even beat the old Pacific
Cat in the harbor, on a good day.
One favorite maneuver was to sneak up from behind swimmers at the town
beach, and sail right over them at high speed (no dolphin striker to
hit them with, the tiller tie-bar was the lowest part). The other stunt
was to drag through the water, holding on to tiller tie-bar, steering
with body motion, and nobody on the boat. Then there was the infamous day
when my passenger said "hey, let's jump on the 'trampoline' and before we
though better of it, a seem ripped clear across the tramp and dumped us
both in the harbor (Good thing I already knew how to do maneuver no. 2
above).
The half-model of the Aqua Cat sill graces my bathroom wall, and I often
contemplate what the boat would be like with carbon spars and a
camber-induced, full-batten sail.
Barry Demak
>would like to hear
> some tips on what areas to investigate carefully on a used 18.
I just acquired a 1983 HC 18 - sort of an indefinite loan.
Check out the hulls as you would for any dinghy.
Surprises I would like to avoid include:
Lay out jib and main sails and check for wear and tear
Check rudder system
Check rudders and centerboards. Centerboards are kind of pricey, and you
might not be interested in replacing them!
Check the mast for damage/fatigue from being dropped too much!
Check the rigging
Consider the integrity of the trailer
Check all block and harware
Check condition of tramp
Consider the value of extras that might be thrown in: beach wheels, vest,
harnesses, etc.
I guess in short, you should check the whole boat.
Probably most important, though, is to have the prospective seller take you
out on a test sail.
I believe Phil Berman's: Catamaran Sailing from Start to Finish has a good
section on selecting/buying a boat.
-barry
Michael Teets
The religous discusions of the best boat could go on forever along
with the "correctness" of any handicapping system and how each
boat fits or beats it. If your objective is to learn to sail
better, you should buy the boat of the largest active fleet in
your area. You cannot beat one design racing or at least
handicap racing with groups of one-designs. I have spent significant
time on the full range of nacra's and hobies and cannot say
that one boat is "best".... If you cannot decide, buy one of each.
--
/| Michael Teets | Voice: (614)761-5066
/ |\ Online Computer Library Center | Fax: (614)793-0919
_/__|_\_ 6565 Frantz Road | Internet: m...@oclc.org
...\________/.... Dublin, OH. 43017-3395 |
bkel...@delphi.com
sailed for only 2 years, never raced . The boat is a freshwater boat in
Ohio and has been stored for 5 years as the settlement for the divorce was
contested, If interested, I'm sure the price is right