Repo boat purchase?
Jim Irvine
Considering buying a one year old Sea Ray 215 EC that has been reposessed.
They will allow it to be surveyed and checked by a mechanic - but no sea
trial.
What should one look for in a repo?
hkrause
If it's not winter and you are serious about buying a boat and willing
to do so after a good survey and the sellers won't let you splash it as
a final checkout, walk away. Something smells.
Tony Thomas
servey/mechanic should be able to spot any problems w/ the boat w/out
putting it in the water.
Compression test, cranking on a hose, and thorough inspection should tell
you if there is any kind of engine problem to include crack in the block or
water in the oil, or lower unit problem.
The hull can be inspected to verify no leaks and good structural condition
(any water leaks should appear as stains in the bilge area where the leak
is.
Even the speedometer can be checked w/ an air compressor.
After all this, if everything checks out, there should not be a performance
problem except for maybe a bad/wrong prop. I would bid w/ a factor of $1000
for any unseen repairs that may be needed.
Oh yea, have the inspector/mechanic check the trailer bearings also.
"Jim Irvine" <jrir...@fred.net> wrote in message
news:Az%X8.7$k57....@news.abs.net...
Jtown2354
There is some reason they will not allow a trial - I can only think of one
reason for their decision - some major problem. Some would not touch it with a
10 foot pole - me? - I would invent a 15 foot pole. --- Jerry/Idaho
HLAviation
I'd just bid it at salvage value.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Tony Thomas
they do not have insurance on the boat. If you had an accident there
probably is no liability insurance. You can haul it to a mechanic since
your vehicle insurance covers anything you are towing.
Tony
"Tony Thomas" <thom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pZ%X8.68655$iB1.3...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
K. Smith
Great Idea, production boat, with production power, not much risk at all.
The survey should take into account the lack or sea trial (not really
needed anyway one of the kind will perform pretty much as others) & the
mechanical inspection likewise shouldn't need a sea trial to pick up serious
defects.
Just by cutting the marine dealer out of the loop you'll be saving around
20% & their bids to the same auction will be on that basis. Remember if you
walked into a dealer after they've bought it at the same repo auction,
they'll tell you all sorts of crap about how & why it was "traded" etc "owner
died" etc "best boat they've ever sold" etc so don't think for a second by
paying more & going to a dealer you'll be ever ever ever better off;-)
Yes that still leaves you swinging for some risk of course, but that's
the advantage of buying from the financiers you can bid a suitably lower
wholesale (non dealer) price to cover whatever you & your surveyor/mechanic
feel might be a worst case scenario that they can't pick up (not much that's
serious really) AND then some, then in the very unlikely event it is the
"worst case" you've got that fixed at full commercial rates, bought at the
same price the dealers would have paid (min 20% but maybe 50% less) & still
pocketed the "then some".
Current times, might be lots of good repo buys around & the general state
of the boat, clean not scratched, etc etc will tell you if the previous owner
was looking after it before they lost it.
K
Douglas King
> > Good idea or not?
> > Considering buying a one year old Sea Ray 215 EC that has been reposessed.
> > They will allow it to be surveyed and checked by a mechanic - but no sea
> > trial.
Buying a boat without a sea trial is a dumb idea. However.... more below
>
> "K. Smith" wrote:
> The survey should take into account the lack or sea trial (not really
> needed anyway one of the kind will perform pretty much as others) & the
> mechanical inspection likewise shouldn't need a sea trial to pick up serious
> defects.
It depends very much on the boat & it's systems, and I'm dubious that there is
any boat above a tin skiff that doesn't have a few systems that simply cannot be
tested out of the water.
It's true that the handling & stability etc etc should be just like others of
it's type, so be sure that you are very familiar with the particular type of
boat, and that it is really what you want.
It is also possible that the boat has some serious structural defect, like say
for example a subgrid partially unbonded, that would never be found with the boat
out of the water.
Would you buy a car without being allowed to test drive it first?
>
>
> Just by cutting the marine dealer out of the loop you'll be saving around
> 20% & their bids to the same auction will be on that basis. Remember if you
> walked into a dealer after they've bought it at the same repo auction,
> they'll tell you all sorts of crap about how & why it was "traded" etc "owner
> died" etc "best boat they've ever sold" etc so don't think for a second by
> paying more & going to a dealer you'll be ever ever ever better off;-)
Except that you can demand... and get... a sea trial. Also there is an implied
warranty (at least in most states) that you expressly have no claim to as a repo
buyer.
>
>
> Yes that still leaves you swinging for some risk of course
A BIG "of course" IMHO.
> .... but that's
> the advantage of buying from the financiers you can bid a suitably lower
> wholesale (non dealer) price to cover whatever you & your surveyor/mechanic
> feel might be a worst case scenario that they can't pick up (not much that's
> serious really)
au contraire
> AND then some, then in the very unlikely event it is the
> "worst case" you've got that fixed at full commercial rates, bought at the
> same price the dealers would have paid (min 20% but maybe 50% less) & still
> pocketed the "then some".
I think that you should bid a rock-bottom price and not even consider wholesale.
For one thing, this is not a new boat. Consider instead what the boat is worth to
you, then consider what you'd have to pay to fix the worst 10 things that could
possibly be wrong with it, take that off the top.... then drop at least 10% off
that for good luck.
>
>
> Current times, might be lots of good repo buys around & the general state
> of the boat, clean not scratched, etc etc will tell you if the previous owner
> was looking after it before they lost it.
On a repo? What do you think the odds are that the previous owner was taking
really good, or even decent, care of the boat?
The problem with being a pessimist is that one is proven right far too often.
DSK
K. Smith
> > Jim Irvine wrote:
> > > Good idea or not?
> > > Considering buying a one year old Sea Ray 215 EC that has been reposessed.
> > > They will allow it to be surveyed and checked by a mechanic - but no sea
> > > trial.
>
> Buying a boat without a sea trial is a dumb idea. However.... more below
>
> >
> > "K. Smith" wrote:
> > The survey should take into account the lack or sea trial (not really
> > needed anyway one of the kind will perform pretty much as others) & the
> > mechanical inspection likewise shouldn't need a sea trial to pick up serious
> > defects.
>
> It depends very much on the boat & it's systems, and I'm dubious that there is
> any boat above a tin skiff that doesn't have a few systems that simply cannot be
> tested out of the water.
Well this is a 21 ftr., I can't think of any "systems" so maybe you can suggest
some & then see if anyone here has any ideas on how they can be tested out of the
water.
>
>
> It's true that the handling & stability etc etc should be just like others of
> it's type, so be sure that you are very familiar with the particular type of
> boat, and that it is really what you want.
>
Yes or maybe the buyer can be guided by say friends, rec.boats (has anyone got
anything specific he should be aware of with this boat?), magazine tests (although
they're mainly paid advertising or worse they purport to be independent then repeat
& disseminate blatant falsehoods fed them by the dealers;-), the hopefully
independent surveyor's comments & knowledge even the marine mechanic will probably
have something to say, all are potentially better sources of info than anything a
dealer is likely to say.
>
> It is also possible that the boat has some serious structural defect, like say
> for example a subgrid partially unbonded, that would never be found with the boat
> out of the water.
Hmmm a bit of panic scare mongering never goes astray; hey??
>
>
> Would you buy a car without being allowed to test drive it first?
Well sorry dealers do it at auction every day of the week & dealers buy these
repo boats as stock every day of the week, but they bid a price that allows them a
goodly margin for any unknown defect & also their 20 to 50% markup!!
Most dealers when buying repo stock don't even have it surveyed nor mechanically
checked, some even have contract deals with the finance Cos so they just take them
back sight unseen, they don't want any boats on the open market at less than dealer
marked up prices. Trouble is there are just too many at the moment & the finance Cos
need to get rid of them, a good opportunity to get a good cheap boat & not go near
the dealers.
Price is the main thing, if you can get it at a price that allows a much cheaper
entry go for it is my opinion & yes other will have other opinions.
K
Larry
Douglas King
> > any boat above a tin skiff that doesn't have a few systems that simply cannot be
> > tested out of the water.
>
> Well this is a 21 ftr., I can't think of any "systems" so maybe you can suggest
> some & then see if anyone here has any ideas on how they can be tested out of the
> water.
How about the depthsounder, for one thing....
Seriously, the only way I know of to test things like the cooling side is to put the
boat in the water and run it. How about the seacocks?
You are suggesting simply making a lowball offer and hoping that nothing is bad wrong
with it. If you're comfortable with that risk, go ahead.... I don't think it's wise to
urge others to do so.
>
>
> > It is also possible that the boat has some serious structural defect, like say
> > for example a subgrid partially unbonded, that would never be found with the boat
> > out of the water.
>
> Hmmm a bit of panic scare mongering never goes astray; hey??
Panic mongering? First you said "Nothing could be wrong with it that a surveyor wouldn't
spot" and now you cry panic mongering because here is a serious potential problem, and
it is almost impossible to spot unless you see the hull flexing (ie the boat pretty much
has to be afloat and being driven).
Make up your mind, either it's a good risk or a bad one. Either way you are suggesting
risking somebody elses money.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Would you buy a car without being allowed to test drive it first?
>
> Well sorry dealers do it at auction every day of the week & dealers buy these
> repo boats as stock every day of the week, but they bid a price that allows them a
> goodly margin for any unknown defect & also their 20 to 50% markup!!
And you are suggesting that it's a smart deal for an individual who wants to use this
boat himself?
A sea trial, even for a 21 footer, is the only smart thing to do. Unless the price of
the boat is trivial and you would not be more than mildly amused if it turned out you
had just taken the price of the boat out of your wallet and burned it.... personally I'm
not that rich.....
DSK
Jim Irvine
I found a certified surveyor that will perform the survey with me present at
the repo yard and a mechanic that will certify the compression test and
other mechanical systems. The "no water test" policy doesn't scare me as
much as it should because I am very familiar with this model, but I also
know an evaluation is incomplete without one. I will hold final judgment of
this pending the outcome of the survey.
Today, I tried to get the maintenance history of the boat having traced it
to the original dealer and even the marina where it was stored and serviced.
However, neither would look up the records without the actual name of the
original owner. The Repo yard insisted they do not know the owners name
because they are only a agent for the bank. This, I think, is BS because
the repo yard has the bank papers and went and picked up the boat. My guess
is they had the name of the owner, if only to confirm they picked up the
correct unit from the marina.
After a little further detective work, I now have the HIN and current state
registration numbers, armed with this information, I should be able to trace
the owner.
The plot thickens - or is it sickens?
Now beginning to wonder if this is worth the effort.
HLAviation
>registration numbers, armed with this information, I should be able to trace
>the owner.
>
>The plot thickens - or is it sickens?
>
>Now beginning to wonder if this is worth the effort.
>
Only if you can buy it at salvage value. If you pay what the bank wants,
you'll end up in it way upside down.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
K. Smith
> > > It depends very much on the boat & it's systems, and I'm dubious that there is
> > > any boat above a tin skiff that doesn't have a few systems that simply cannot be
> > > tested out of the water.
> >
> > "K. Smith" wrote:
> > Well this is a 21 ftr., I can't think of any "systems" so maybe you can suggest
> > some & then see if anyone here has any ideas on how they can be tested out of the
> > water.
>
> How about the depthsounder, for one thing....
>
> Seriously, the only way I know of to test things like the cooling side is to put the
> boat in the water and run it. How about the seacocks?
>
> You are suggesting simply making a lowball offer and hoping that nothing is bad wrong
> with it. If you're comfortable with that risk, go ahead.... I don't think it's wise to
> urge others to do so.
>
Exactly Doug. The things you mention are trivia & can be subject to failure at any time
anyway.. About the only thing might be the risers but if it was repossessed & still on the
drip it's most likely not an old boat. Regardless risers that are OK can be not so in 3
mths anyway again if he buys cheap enough it's a great opportunity.
>
> >
> >
> > > It is also possible that the boat has some serious structural defect, like say
> > > for example a subgrid partially unbonded, that would never be found with the boat
> > > out of the water.
> >
> > Hmmm a bit of panic scare mongering never goes astray; hey??
>
> Panic mongering? First you said "Nothing could be wrong with it that a surveyor wouldn't
> spot" and now you cry panic mongering because here is a serious potential problem, and
> it is almost impossible to spot unless you see the hull flexing (ie the boat pretty much
> has to be afloat and being driven).
>
> Make up your mind, either it's a good risk or a bad one. Either way you are suggesting
> risking somebody elses money.
>
Well I'm not familiar with the construction of this particular boat so I'll accept
you're saying that's its construction although not all that common on boats that size &
even if it is so what?? it's a rare problem which save a crash, is from poor construction
quality control, again do these boats have a reputation for such poor standards & yet again
will a dealer sell it for any less?? not likely indeed the mere mention of a problem sends
them into full spruik mode.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Would you buy a car without being allowed to test drive it first?
> >
> > Well sorry dealers do it at auction every day of the week & dealers buy these
> > repo boats as stock every day of the week, but they bid a price that allows them a
> > goodly margin for any unknown defect & also their 20 to 50% markup!!
>
> And you are suggesting that it's a smart deal for an individual who wants to use this
> boat himself?
>
> A sea trial, even for a 21 footer, is the only smart thing to do. Unless the price of
> the boat is trivial and you would not be more than mildly amused if it turned out you
> had just taken the price of the boat out of your wallet and burned it.... personally I'm
> not that rich.....
>
Well we disagree that's all no big deal. I still say if there is a "serious" question
about the boat the surveyor should pick it up & so long as the bidder offers a suitably
discounted price it's the way to go.
Just so you can know I'm prepared to do what I say, my blokes have bought all our cars
& trucks at finance Co auctions over many years, the auctioneers usually give a reasonable
description & touch wood, we've not had a problem, save we knew in advance & bought at a
price allowing full commercial repairs. My current Ford one was near new but had troubles
with the electronic 4 speed auto, they got it at the normal wholesale about 25% below
dealers (less than half new price 2 years previous) less the normal 1600 for the gearbox,
my blokes had it out & repaired in a day & a half for a total of under 500.
I totally accept you are right about there being some risk but it's just not in the
class of "the boat might be worthless", at very worst he'll have a boat for no more than
he'd be snipped by the dealers, & at best he'll enjoy it for a few years then resell it for
a profit.
Best Regards,
K
>
> DSK
Baldy Cotton
And road tests are standard for buying cars, but not at auction.
>There is some reason they will not allow a trial - I can only think of one
>reason for their decision - some major problem.
Now you know two reasons.
hkrause
>
> Well sorry dealers do it at auction every day of the week & dealers buy these
> repo boats as stock every day of the week, but they bid a price that allows them a
> goodly margin for any unknown defect & also their 20 to 50% markup!!
>
> Most dealers when buying repo stock don't even have it surveyed nor mechanically
> checked, some even have contract deals with the finance Cos so they just take them
> back sight unseen, they don't want any boats on the open market at less than dealer
> marked up prices. Trouble is there are just too many at the moment & the finance Cos
> need to get rid of them, a good opportunity to get a good cheap boat & not go near
> the dealer
You're full of crap, as usual.
Skipper
> K. Smith wrote:
>> Most dealers when buying repo stock don't even have it surveyed nor
>> mechanically checked, some even have contract deals with the finance
>> companies so they just take them back sight unseen...
> You're full of crap, as usual.
And you're like the little boy crying, "It's my ball and I'm going home
with it". Just because you were shown to be full of crap over your boat
ownership claims, you feel the need to bugger the chronological order of
NG posts and tell everyone they're full of crap.
--
Skipper
Snowjacks
attended several more repo auctions where I did not buy, I will comment:
1. I've never seen sea trials or road tests allowed at a repo auction.
2. You are normally allowed to start the engines (briefly) and do a
mechanical inspection. Sometimes, the bank won't have keys. A competent
mechanic can get it started without keys. Look for wiring damage, because
the repo guy may have hot wired it. You'll want to rekey it anyway, and
factor that into your cost basis.
3. Repo auctions are normally efficient and well attended, and you will
likely find yourself bidding against 5-6 other bidders, plus sealed
pre-bids.
4. There are no steals at a repo auction, because the bank is normally
permitted to make one final bid if it doesn't meet their reserve. Their
reserve is normally the current "loan value", which is about 10% below the
"trade-in" value, and well above salvage value.
5. Nevertheless, there are bargains to be had. I've puchased 2 year old
units with 50 hours for 20% less than similar outright private party sales.
6. You need to sort out whether this unit is a low-hour fantasy purchase
that the buyer seldom used (dock queen), or was it trashed, wrung out, and
never maintained. Repos do tend to cluster into those two categories.
7. The maintenace history can be inferred based on the color, quantity, and
condition of the fluids. You can bet neither the bank nor the repo man
performed any maintenance, so what you find is generally how the previous
owner maintained it.
"Jim Irvine" <jrir...@fred.net> wrote in message
news:2u7Y8.10$k57....@news.abs.net...
Gould 0738
>these
>repo boats as stock every day of the week, but they bid a price that allows
>them a
>goodly margin for any unknown defect & also their 20 to 50% markup!!
Every day of the week, a dealer buys a boat cheaply enough to cover any unkown
defect and still mark it up as much as 50%???
Karen, *you* rant and wail about *dealers* spreading false information.
Puleeeeze.
A repo auction is driven by a profit motive, or at least a motivation to
minimize losses.
Nobody is buying a boat for a lot less than half its realistic retail value at
a repo auction. Most are open to the public, and bidding would certainly go
higher than some amount that would allow for the correction of any unseen
defects and another 50% to boot.
At an auction closed to the public and open only to dealers, (and in most cases
you're talking about boats being trailered down a lane at an auto auction since
there isn't enough repo boat volume to justify a
separate sale), the lenders put a reserve on the boat. If the reserve isn't
met, most lenders will try to find some other venue to sell the boat through
rather than conclude:
"Oh well. We loaned $100,000 on that boat two years ago, it would still bring
$85,000 used, but if the best bidder in sight is Holy Smoke Used Cars and
Marine at $36,500
we'll just have to let it go for that, by golly."
Karen continues:
> Most dealers when buying repo stock don't even have it surveyed nor
>mechanically
>checked, some even have contract deals with the finance Cos so they just take
>them
>back sight unseen, they don't want any boats on the open market at less than
>dealer
>marked up prices.
Aaaaaaach! You should stick to dispensing mechanical advice. You seem to at
least know what you're talking about in that category.
The agreement to take a boat back, sight unseen, is something the *bank* likes
to see. It's called "recourse fiinancing," and it leaves the dealer on the hook
if the bank or other lending source can't collect from the borrower. It isn't
an unusual arrangement for a luxury item that can be difficult to resell, like
a boat.
Under recourse financing, dealers often pay off boats they will never see
again. The borrowers have left the state, hidden the boat to avoid repo, or any
number of similar dodges.
Your statement that the dealers are motivated to keep boats off the open market
at less than dealer prices is absurd. The arrangement is in place so that the
banks and finance companies do not have to accept "open market" pricing on the
boats they do recover and take the (usual) loss between the resale value of a
repo and the balance owed.
The banks have the "option" to force the dealer to make good on recourse
financing, but not an obligation. In the rare instance where somebody puts half
or more down on something and then goes bad, odds are that the bank will handle
that one on their own and resell it to the bank president's brother in law..
Now it may be different in Aus. But in the US, if a repo is sold for more than
the balance owed, the costs of recovering it, and the costs of reconditioning
and reselling it, the excess money has to be given to the party that defaulted
on the note. In all the years I was involved with consumer finance sales and
repos, I never
paid out a dime to a defaulted borrower.
There was never really a resale profit, and most commonly there was a huge
loss.
Fact: If a boat could be sold so cheaply that any Tom, Dick, Harry, or Karen
could happen along and say, "Gee whiz! That's a helluva buy! I wasn't actually
looking for a boat right now, but at that kind of number I'm going to step up
and get it..." the original *owner* of the boat would have sold it and avoided
the repo in the first place.
People are seriously upside down in most things that are repopped. The banks
and finance companies want to minimize their losses. If they can't make the
dealer eat the loss, they will exhaust every available avenue to get as close
to top dollar for the unit through whatever resale method they can devise.
hkrause
>> Well sorry dealers do it at auction every day of the week & dealers buy
>>these
>>repo boats as stock every day of the week, but they bid a price that allows
>>them a
>>goodly margin for any unknown defect & also their 20 to 50% markup!!
>
> Every day of the week, a dealer buys a boat cheaply enough to cover any unkown
> defect and still mark it up as much as 50%???
>
> Karen, *you* rant and wail about *dealers* spreading false information.
> Puleeeeze.
>
Well, Skipper believes her. Something about flies being attracted to
...well...
Karen knows absolutely nothing about the sale and financing of boats.
Skipper bought a repo Bayliner 11 years ago and hasn't figured out how
long it is...one week it is 22 feet, then the next 25 feet then 24 feet.
Skipper
> Well, Skipper believes her.
Damn straight! She's been a great resource for this NG. You, on the
other hand, dispense misinformation. She's corrected your drivel how
many times?
> Karen knows absolutely nothing about the sale and financing of boats.
> Skipper bought a repo Bayliner 11 years ago and hasn't figured out how
> long it is...one week it is 22 feet, then the next 25 feet then 24 feet.
Oh really?
--
Skipper
Danlw
"Gould 0738" <goul...@aol.comspamkill> wrote in message
news:20020714140525...@mb-cn.aol.com...
As some one in the business of "repopping", I can tell you for a fact that
having a recourse contract on a boat is extremely rare. Most boats of any
size are consigned to a dealer.
Danlw
hkrause
Recourse was much more common in the 1950s and 1960s, but a lot of
dealers resisted and the practice mostly died out, at least in New
England, except possibly for the weakest dealers and customers. It's
pretty rare.
While there may be lots of boat repops, the bigger and better dealers
don't seem to have much to do with them. As examples, I frequent three
boat dealerships on the Bay and in nearly five years, I've never seen a
boat identified as a repop boat in their showrooms or on their lots. I
did see a repop boat at one dealer's in Florida.
HLAviation
>
That's not true of any of the auctions I've dealt with. They've all had had
test run of about a half mile to check it out on, and you have the right to
reject a vehicle if it was marked "Ride and Drive" and doesn't pass the ride as
represented (ie, you have to disclose suspension, transmission and engine
problems...)
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
K. Smith
Well no Chuck but once the repo is in their possession or the possession of
the contract repo collector, they have it valued not by what a dealer might sell
it for, but how much cash they can get for it on that day, in that place, as is,
remember just holding it in a yard is costing them, not to mention the normal
risks. I say a retail 20,000 boat , buying at auction & yes as everyone points out
here a sea trial is just not viable for the bulk disposal of repo stock, then yes
10,000 is possible if not common, 15000 is more than possible & would/should be
his upper bid.
>
>
> Karen continues:
>
> > Most dealers when buying repo stock don't even have it surveyed nor
> >mechanically
> >checked, some even have contract deals with the finance Cos so they just take
> >them
> >back sight unseen, they don't want any boats on the open market at less than
> >dealer
> >marked up prices.
>
> Aaaaaaach! You should stick to dispensing mechanical advice. You seem to at
> least know what you're talking about in that category.
>
> The agreement to take a boat back, sight unseen, is something the *bank* likes
> to see. It's called "recourse fiinancing," and it leaves the dealer on the hook
> if the bank or other lending source can't collect from the borrower. It isn't
> an unusual arrangement for a luxury item that can be difficult to resell, like
> a boat.
No again Chuck you're talking about it going back to the selling dealer as
part of the original contract between the dealer & the financier, I'm talking
about big dealers having a contract with a financier that says I'll take all repo
stock, in a certain area, up to a certain amount, under say 3yrs old, that's
complete & not accident undamaged, sight unseen @ a percentage of say your blue
book & that percentage will not be anywhere near 75% it'll be closer to 50% & yes
the financiers are happy. They don't need to auction, they know in advance what
it's worth & there's no holding risks/costs. Big finance houses can get away with
this because the real losers are still the hapless clients, they still get written
up for the difference, which the big blokes just sell the debt on anyway & by
sending repos through auction the financier can always claim having recovered
"fair market value", no argumants.
>
>
> Under recourse financing, dealers often pay off boats they will never see
> again. The borrowers have left the state, hidden the boat to avoid repo, or any
> number of similar dodges.
>
Again a different thing & any dealer who sells on that basis would be ripping
the retail price for the risk anyway.
>
> Your statement that the dealers are motivated to keep boats off the open market
> at less than dealer prices is absurd. The arrangement is in place so that the
> banks and finance companies do not have to accept "open market" pricing on the
> boats they do recover and take the (usual) loss between the resale value of a
> repo and the balance owed.
Of course they do Chuck & you know it, how many auctions did you see for the
Ficht stock advertised?? None? no because it was quietly disposed of to other
dealers, there was give away pricing yes but not openly advertised to the public.
The only leakage I've seen is Habbi has told people here about his dealer dumping
Fichts, but again the dealer himself wouldn't want to get caught advertising in
areas other than a remote place up north. Same with cars etc gee we even have
dealer only auctions here to clear brand new stock, so it gets auctioned by one
dealer to another just so the holding dealer doesn't openly let it onto the market
at a true discount (nothing gets to the public below "dealer invoice").
>
>
> The banks have the "option" to force the dealer to make good on recourse
> financing, but not an obligation. In the rare instance where somebody puts half
> or more down on something and then goes bad, odds are that the bank will handle
> that one on their own and resell it to the bank president's brother in law..
Again a different arrangement.
>
>
> Now it may be different in Aus. But in the US, if a repo is sold for more than
> the balance owed, the costs of recovering it, and the costs of reconditioning
> and reselling it, the excess money has to be given to the party that defaulted
> on the note. In all the years I was involved with consumer finance sales and
> repos, I never
> paid out a dime to a defaulted borrower.
> There was never really a resale profit, and most commonly there was a huge
> loss.
>
You're talking about a different finance arrangement!!! You are correct the
financier never gets even what's owing on the loan let alone the costs of repo,
holding & auction so yes that's their motive to just dump it & further evidence
(thanks;-)) of how a cheap repo boat can be bought at auction.
>
> Fact: If a boat could be sold so cheaply that any Tom, Dick, Harry, or Karen
> could happen along and say, "Gee whiz! That's a helluva buy! I wasn't actually
> looking for a boat right now, but at that kind of number I'm going to step up
> and get it..." the original *owner* of the boat would have sold it and avoided
> the repo in the first place.
Honestly Chuck you argue against yourself!! So as you say why didn't the
debtor just sell it?? because it was worth much less than he/she owes on it,
that's why, how much in it's current condition, location, time of year, etc etc ??
I don't know but a sure way to find out is to publicly auction it & see. Despite
your Alice in Wonderland view of the world 50% below what the same boats are being
offered in dealers is not out of the question & even not all that uncommon, as for
20 to 25% that's almost a minimum. In 20 that's 5 Chuck what's likely to be wrong
that a surveyor & mechanic both missed??
>
>
> People are seriously upside down in most things that are repopped. The banks
> and finance companies want to minimize their losses. If they can't make the
> dealer eat the loss, they will exhaust every available avenue to get as close
> to top dollar for the unit through whatever resale method they can devise.
Again you're actually arguing inhouse finance, this isn't that it's just
normal finance where the financier finds itself owning a boat or many boats & in
the current times maybe they'll be owning lots more of them, so they want them off
their books asap.
I note apart from arguing a totally different & irrelevant finance arrangement
where the boat doesn't get auction but is slipped back into the dealer system
direct (no risk of the public getting cheap boats there I guess;-)) you don't seem
to have any real objection to this bloke buying this boat at auction?? I assume
all the time he gets it at a price low enough that he feels covered for any extra
risk he's taking?? If that's what you say then we agree which is a worry to us
both I'm sure;-)
Best Regards,
K
hkrause
> I'm talking
> about big dealers having a contract with a financier that says I'll take all repo
> stock, in a certain area, up to a certain amount, under say 3yrs old, that's
> complete & not accident undamaged, sight unseen @ a percentage of say your blue
> book & that percentage will not be anywhere near 75% it'll be closer to 50% & yes
> the financiers are happy.
Please provide a list of names of real boat dealerships (big dealers, as
you say) in major US markets that have such "contracts" with boat
finance agencies, a list long enough to give your bizarre claim
credibility.
Or is this just more b.s, conjecture on your part?
K. Smith
Most of the franchised dealers, is that enough?? Lots of them use the same factory
organised (& paid for back under the table) finance through floor plan to offering it
to the consumer (for a good kickback of course;-)). When it turns to putty the first
place of disposal is back to the dealers. Lots of bigger dealers (not franchised) have
end of lease buy deals with financiers.
Honestly Harry you better get out more, the financing of stock is as much a scam
as the dealers themselves.
K
bb
wrote:
How many repos have you bought or sold?
If you were a used boat dealer, what percentage of full retail would
you be willing to pay for a boat you were buying for resale? I don't
try to buy boats for resale, but if I do, I try to buy them at 50% of
current market. For me, it only happens once or twice a year, and I'm
involved in the used boat market six to seven days a week, 51 to 52
weeks a year.
Lets just say a particular boat is worth 30K in decent shape on the
market. If you list an owner's boat to sell at the average commission
of 10%, you're gonna make 3K without investing a dime in ownership, or
maintenance, or storage, or insurance, or risking a change in market
conditions.
Let's say you, as a dealer, have the opportunity to buy a 30K boat for
15K, giving one a 15K margin. Ok, you must subtract the 3K in
commission you get anyway from selling to same boat if a private owner
listed it with you, giving a gross profit of 12K. You better figure
in the price of a survey and haul out, net profit 11K. You're gonna
burn several days time not only going through survey and purchase of
this particular vessel, but also the time you spent on other possible
vessels you didn't purchase, net profit 9K. Average length of time to
get a boat sold, six months. Cost of six months slip rent, $1,500,
net profit 7.5K. Six months of general maintenance, insurance, and
interest on your money, net profit 6K. Inevitable concession at
survey time when you do finally have a buyer, net profit 5K. Factor
in the probability that every once in a while you'll buy a boat for
resale and take a loss on the process, net profit 4K. So, by these
numbers, you've invested 23K, over six months time, with a return of
4K, about a 17% profit on the whole experience.
When I'm buying a boat for resale, this is how I go about it. So far,
it's worked out ok, but it's certainly no windfall, and certainly not
risk free. Considering the above factors affecting a dealer buying a
boat for resale, what would you suggest as a reasonable percentage of
retail for a dealer to pay?
bb
hkrause
I suspect you have no credible evidence for this latest bizarre charge
of yours.
hkrause
Karen thinks dealers should buy boats at 80 per cent of suggested retail
and sell them for 60 per cent of suggested retail. About a year ago, she
had some cockeyed scheme to do away with dealers altogether and have
manufacturers of production boats sell direct to end consumers.
As time goes by, her motivation is more apparent, She obviously wanted
to be a boat dealer at one time and was turned down for a franchise.
Karen knows nothing about the marketing of complex consumer goods.
Skipper
>
> K. Smith wrote:
> Please provide a list of names of real boat dealerships (big dealers, as
> you say) in major US markets that have such "contracts" with boat
> finance agencies, a list long enough to give your bizarre claim
> credibility.
> Or is this just more b.s, conjecture on your part?
Please provide a photo of your boat. Or is boat ownership just more BS
from you.
--
Skipper
hkrause
I see you were "caught" again in your nefarious cross-posting obsession,
dirtbag.
In referring to one of your crossposts, Jeff Morris wrote:
No, I've never had that pleasure. But that fact that you're willing to pull
over my comments from another newsgroup to serve your sick purposes says a
lot about you. Go away, little boy.
--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back
soup at the deli."
"Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3D31F86C...@cox.net...
> Jeff Morris wrote:
>
> > If you can prove you own your boat (documentation, registration,
> > insurance, etc.) and are claiming a reasonable amount of time, they
> > should take your word for it, just as they would take the word of any
> > other owner who signs your papers. You are attesting under penalty of
> > perjury, and mariners are known to be honorable people.
>
> Obviously you've not met Harry Krause. Your gain.
>
> --
> Skipper
You really are a turd, Skipper. You stink up this newsgroup.
Skipper
>>> Or is this just more b.s, conjecture on your part?
>> Please provide a photo of your boat. Or is boat ownership just more BS
>> from you.
> I see you were "caught" again in your nefarious cross-posting obsession,
> dirtbag.
> You really are a turd, Skipper. You stink up this newsgroup.
You are such a master of prose, Krause. Advanced degree in English, huh?
--
Skipper
HLAviation
>factory
>organised (& paid for back under the table) finance through floor plan to
>offering it
>to the consumer (for a good kickback of course;-)). When it turns to putty
>the first
>place of disposal is back to the dealers.
If the dealer arrainges the financing, they get from 1 to 3 points on the back
end. The dealer also has monthly floorplan reduction payments to make (read
Vig in loanshark parlance) not to mention the rest of his/her overhead which
for a larger dealership can run 6 to 7 figures monthly.
>the financing of stock is as much a scam
>as the dealers themselves.
If it wasn't for this "scam" as you so inappropriately put it, you wouldn't be
able to buy a boat unless you were wealthy and could wait for you custom built
boat which you would have to start paying for before it ever started being
built (just like when you build a custom house). If it wasn't for dealers
floating the risk and paying the time value of the money, you'd have to pay it
when you ordered the boat to be built, because without the dealer network, the
manufacturers sure wouldn't build on spec, so you'd have to wait a longer time
for the boat and find your own financing.
If you don't want to deal with boat dealers, you don't have to, there are
plenty of small yards out there who will build you a fine boat to whatever
specifications you desire, or you can even build your own. If you have good
credit you'll be able to finance it at a lower rate than the dealer can get
you, however that isn't an option for everybody. Not everybody can afford the
premium of a custom boat, and the economies of scale just aren't available
without a dealer network to absorb some of the cost and risk to the
manufacturer. You may call it a scam, but without it, most people on rec.boats
couldn't afford to be boaters.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
K. Smith
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 08:13:47 +1000, "K. Smith" <ksm...@tpg.com.au>
> wrote:
>
You're bashing at an open door!! So in general terms you confirm my
numbers & indeed my "at least 20%" is very very light on. You confirm
that as far as you're concerned you can make $3000 with no equity cost,
holding costs or risk, I agree!! that's exactly what I was pointing out!!
Your attitude is a good example of dealer think & thanks for it, you say
buying at 15 for a 30 boat as you say you do, is not something he should
consider??? I say it is. Gee we were arguing over 50% now you want 100%
markup & justify it because you say what?? you could have won the lottery
?? you're "entitled" to a base $3000 because what?? you walked by??
you're a boat dealer?? gees Louise!! then you bleat on about your "costs"
so what, we don't care about "your" problems you're a dealer the very
people I say are a rip off pure & simple. I fully accept there are lots
of Harry(s) out there that give you a nice little earn & good on you
that's what simpletons are there for, I make no complaint, but equally
when a bloke asks here about buying a boat at auction the mere absence of
a sea trial can be more than compensated by the savings in his purchase
cost.
So back to the original post ; if he has the opportunity to go to the
same auction as you might to buy your own stock, he can expect to save
what?? I said at least 20 -25%, but it seems my advice was well in error
I hope he doesn't bid that high!! on your advice he should bid at least
half what I said & as you correctly point out, that's fair enough,
because he doesn't have your basic "I'm entitled to $3000 up front" then
your maybe well controlled but maybe extravagant holding costs & then
your "profit" margin, not just on the auction price but on all those
things aggregated.
As for the scare mongering about the likelihood of a newish well
known brand production boat with production power being a total wreck
value only; that's poppycock. This bloke wants it independently surveyed
AND he's getting a separate mechanical inspection, I bet you don't do
that on your stock purchases?? you trust your experience, common sense &
like everyone else, you still get caught once in a while (although you
say you want everyone to pay a little extra to cover that for you;-)), he
won't get "caught"; he's getting it all checked.
So in the premises the absence of a dealer spruiking in your ear the
whole time sea trial, is not a bother at all; if the saving is
commensurate.
Best regards,
K
K. Smith
Sorry HL the details of the relationship between the manufacturer suppliers,
the franchised dealers & the financiers was all exposed in great detail on the
net, by the bankruptcy court in the OMC matter. It's fact as found by Her Honour
& all the smoke mirrors & dealer BS in the world won't unfind it. The brain dead
dealers tried to sue the receivers for unpaid rebates, allowances, tech training,
advertising, shop front allowances etc. etc BS BS & more BS. & lost of course as
they should have, it's a bent marketing scheme. A cartel.
K
K. Smith
But but ...... but Harry you said "turd" !!!! you gave me the woody spoon
for exactly that language, does this make you're as bad as me?? surely not? ;-)
K
OhHell
When I bought my boat it had been sitting in a swamp, on the trailer for
almost 4 years. It took a lot of cleaning and a lot of routine type
maintanence but it runs great.
"Jtown2354" <jtow...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020713175355...@mb-bg.aol.com...
> Jim - sea trials are accepted standard operating procedure when buying a
boat.
> There is some reason they will not allow a trial - I can only think of one
> reason for their decision - some major problem. Some would not touch it
with a
> 10 foot pole - me? - I would invent a 15 foot pole. --- Jerry/Idaho