info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Lightning Arrestor PSA
95 views
Skip to first unread message
345...@gmail.com
Aug 5, 2022, 3:15:43 AM8/5/22
to
Yeah, I know what time it is... can't sleep.
Wanted to share some info and experience regarding protecting your home from lightning surge damage. In the late '80s while working as a young electrical engineer at the company I retired from, I happened to spot an ad in a trade mag from a company called Delta Lightning Arrestors out of Texas. If I recall correctly, they had developed an arrestor for use in the oil fields to protect equipment that got damaged frequently by lightning. They were a small upstart, and had expanded their offerings to devices that could be used in factories and at home. One of my coworkers, a guy named Bob Sprinkle who at the time was one of the top RF design engineers in the southeast, had told me about an issue at his home. He was at the end of a power line on his street, the last house fed, and he suffered from destroyed equipment a couple of times a year during storms. I mentioned the devices to him, and he wanted to try one. I worked up an order for 4-5 of them, called the company, and a week or so later we had our arrestors.
They install easily in your breaker box. Two black wires connect to a large double-pole breaker (like a 220v, 30-40amp already used for water heater, stovetop, air handler, etc.) and the white wire to the neutral (white) buss bar or, if you are in an area that does not ground the neutral buss, there is a four wire version that has both white and ground wires. It goes inside the box because if its rating are exceeded it can blow a plug out of the case and spill hot silica (sand). It's rated for 50,000 amps, and I've never heard of one venting. The device I use is the LA-302R, which is about the size of a 12oz drink can but only half as tall.
I got updates from Bob all along, but after a little more than a year and several storms, he had sustained no further damage after installation and declared it a success. I've used them since in two other houses without any failures. I've also installed them for 2 other people and have pointed others to them for themselves, and have never heard of any damage afterwards. I believe in them.
They have expanded their business and product offerings over the years, and you can even buy some of it through Amazon. Their website is:
<deltala.com> Some good info there.
Oh, and we bought a new house about 8 months ago, and I just hadn't put one on this house yet. Lost the cable modem in a storm just a while back. It it was the only piece of electronics not on a UPS at the time. It is now, and a brand new LA-302R is sitting in the box waiting to be installed tomorrow.
Hope this helps someone!
Wanted to share some info and experience regarding protecting your home from lightning surge damage. In the late '80s while working as a young electrical engineer at the company I retired from, I happened to spot an ad in a trade mag from a company called Delta Lightning Arrestors out of Texas. If I recall correctly, they had developed an arrestor for use in the oil fields to protect equipment that got damaged frequently by lightning. They were a small upstart, and had expanded their offerings to devices that could be used in factories and at home. One of my coworkers, a guy named Bob Sprinkle who at the time was one of the top RF design engineers in the southeast, had told me about an issue at his home. He was at the end of a power line on his street, the last house fed, and he suffered from destroyed equipment a couple of times a year during storms. I mentioned the devices to him, and he wanted to try one. I worked up an order for 4-5 of them, called the company, and a week or so later we had our arrestors.
They install easily in your breaker box. Two black wires connect to a large double-pole breaker (like a 220v, 30-40amp already used for water heater, stovetop, air handler, etc.) and the white wire to the neutral (white) buss bar or, if you are in an area that does not ground the neutral buss, there is a four wire version that has both white and ground wires. It goes inside the box because if its rating are exceeded it can blow a plug out of the case and spill hot silica (sand). It's rated for 50,000 amps, and I've never heard of one venting. The device I use is the LA-302R, which is about the size of a 12oz drink can but only half as tall.
I got updates from Bob all along, but after a little more than a year and several storms, he had sustained no further damage after installation and declared it a success. I've used them since in two other houses without any failures. I've also installed them for 2 other people and have pointed others to them for themselves, and have never heard of any damage afterwards. I believe in them.
They have expanded their business and product offerings over the years, and you can even buy some of it through Amazon. Their website is:
<deltala.com> Some good info there.
Oh, and we bought a new house about 8 months ago, and I just hadn't put one on this house yet. Lost the cable modem in a storm just a while back. It it was the only piece of electronics not on a UPS at the time. It is now, and a brand new LA-302R is sitting in the box waiting to be installed tomorrow.
Hope this helps someone!
John H
Aug 5, 2022, 10:04:03 AM8/5/22
to
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 5, 2022, 5:49:40 PM8/5/22
to
lightning strikes per square mile every year. (According to the
article in this month's EC&M)
Unplugging everything every afternoon was not an answer the customers
would accept.
We developed some pretty good lightning protection systems. You
certainly need a protective device at the service entrance but that is
just the starting point. That needs to be connected to a good
grounding electrode system with as short a wire as possible. You also
need protective devices on all the other utility inputs (cable, phone,
Sat dish etc), bonded to the same ground point, again with the
shortest wire possible. The NEC has required an available grounding
point for these devices at the service for several cycles. (1999 or
2002 as I recall). Then it is a good idea to have point of use
protectors at any equipment with more than one input (modems, TVs,
phones, cable boxes etc). This should incorporate all inputs and bond
to a single ground (the EGC).
We also bonded all equipment frames that were served from separate
panels but that is usually a commercial situation. Holiday Inn got me
on the phone to find out how we kept their pool bar PCs from being
blown up because it was a problem all over the state. It was an 8ga
copper wire pulled with the ethernet cable.
The lab at State Farm Winter Haven actually came up with that to fix a
remote printer problem.
We reduced "lightning calls" from a couple a week to one or two a
year, usually not where we had protection installed.
I also have lightning rods at the house. I don't lose stuff, even with
direct hits.
I suppose if you live in a place that doesn't have a thunderstorm
every afternoon for half the year you can just say "there is nothing
that will stop a lightning strike" and just live with stuff being
blown up now and then but that is not an acceptable answer here. It is
sort of like how most folks think about wind storm up north I guess.
Alex
Aug 5, 2022, 10:34:51 PM8/5/22
to
https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HEPD80/surge-protection-device-hepd-80ka-120-240v-1-phase-3-wire-spd-type-1/
It's supposed to protect the AC and refrigerators but it doesn't work
well for electronics. I've changed it out every three years even though
the light was on.
We have a lot of power surges here. I have about nine UPS's and four of
these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000512LA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
FPL has a device you can pay for monthly, with a guarantee, but I don't
want to have to deal with a claim if something gets fried.
Mr. Luddite
Aug 6, 2022, 7:43:41 AM8/6/22
to
A lightening bolt is a current carrying discharge facilitated
by ionized gas in the atmosphere. The "bolt" is considered to be
both direct current however because it is full of high
frequency AC it is also a high energy RF discharge.
A typical round, heavy grounding wire becomes a coil to the
RF components in the discharge and sets up a characteristic
impedance to the current the wire is intended to ground.
A much better "ground" wire is a wide conductor like
copper flashing. It is much less likely to develop
a characteristic impedance to the RF components of the
lightening strike while still maintaining an excellent
conductor for the DC current components.
In the high vacuum deposition systems my company built
we used a subsystem called an electron beam power supply
that operated at 10K-12K volts DC. Often, any trapped
gases within the vacuum chamber or it's internal
components (usually residual water vapor) would become
ionized causing an arc discharge similar to lightening.
If not adequately grounded to earth, these arcs could
become severe enough to damage other components that
operated at low voltages like computers or PLC's.
Providing an effective grounding systems was tricky
sometimes. Over-grounding could set up ground loops
sometimes causing more damage than what they were
intended to prevent. Instead of using heavy copper
ground wire we used copper flashing to quench to
energy contained in these arcs. Worked well.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
345...@gmail.com
Aug 6, 2022, 10:05:31 AM8/6/22
to
I've found that residential really doesn't need the measures dictated by commercial, mission critical stuff. With whole house protection and suppressors/UPS on sensitive equipment I've has no issues, and we have plenty of lightning in the deep south. I've taken near direct hits without losing anything. Depending on the quality of the house's grounding system and wiring, YMMV.
justan
Aug 6, 2022, 10:56:24 AM8/6/22
to
"Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
> On 8/5/2022 10:34 PM, Alex wrote:> 345...@gmail.com wrote:>> Yeah, I know what time it is... can't sleep.>>>> Wanted to share some info and experience regarding protecting your >> home from lightning surge damage. In the late '80s while working as a >> young electrical engineer at the company I retired from, I happened to >> spot an ad in a trade mag from a company called Delta Lightning >> Arrestors out of Texas. If I recall correctly, they had developed an >> arrestor for use in the oil fields to protect equipment that got >> damaged frequently by lightning. They were a small upstart, and had >> expanded their offerings to devices that could be used in factories >> and at home. One of my coworkers, a guy named Bob Sprinkle who at the >> time was one of the top RF design engineers in the southeast, had told >> me about an issue at his home. He was at the end of a power line on >> his street, the last house fed, and he suffered from destroyed >> equipment a couple of times a year during storms. I mentioned the >> devices to him, and he wanted to try one. I worked up an order for >> 4-5 of them, called the company, and a week or so later we had our >> arrestors.>>>> They install easily in your breaker box. Two black wires connect to a >> large double-pole breaker (like a 220v, 30-40amp already used for >> water heater, stovetop, air handler, etc.) and the white wire to the >> neutral (white) buss bar or, if you are in an area that does not >> ground the neutral buss, there is a four wire version that has both >> white and ground wires. It goes inside the box because if its rating >> are exceeded it can blow a plug out of the case and spill hot silica >> (sand). It's rated for 50,000 amps, and I've never heard of one >> venting. The device I use is the LA-302R, which is about the size of >> a 12oz drink can but only half as tall.>>>> I got updates from Bob all along, but after a little more than a year >> and several storms, he had sustained no further damage after >> installation and declared it a success. I've used them since in two >> other houses without any failures. I've also installed them for 2 >> other people and have pointed others to them for themselves, and have >> never heard of any damage afterwards. I believe in them.>>>> They have expanded their business and product offerings over the >> years, and you can even buy some of it through Amazon. Their website is:>> <deltala.com> Some good info there.>>>> Oh, and we bought a new house about 8 months ago, and I just hadn't >> put one on this house yet. Lost the cable modem in a storm just a >> while back. It it was the only piece of electronics not on a UPS at >> the time. It is now, and a brand new LA-302R is sitting in the box >> waiting to be installed tomorrow.>>>> Hope this helps someone!> > I have one of these installed:> > https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HEPD80/surge-protection-device-hepd-80ka-120-240v-1-phase-3-wire-spd-type-1/ > > > It's supposed to protect the AC and refrigerators but it doesn't work > well for electronics. I've changed it out every three years even though > the light was on.> > We have a lot of power surges here. I have about nine UPS's and four of > these:> > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000512LA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 > > > FPL has a device you can pay for monthly, with a guarantee, but I don't > want to have to deal with a claim if something gets fried.> Something I learned from the high vacuum systems biz:A lightening bolt is a current carrying discharge facilitatedby ionized gas in the atmosphere. The "bolt" is considered to beboth direct current however because it is full of highfrequency AC it is also a high energy RF discharge.A typical round, heavy grounding wire becomes a coil to theRF components in the discharge and sets up a characteristicimpedance to the current the wire is intended to ground.A much better "ground" wire is a wide conductor likecopper flashing. It is much less likely to developa characteristic impedance to the RF components of thelightening strike while still maintaining an excellentconductor for the DC current components.In the high vacuum deposition systems my company builtwe used a subsystem called an electron beam power supplythat operated at 10K-12K volts DC. Often, any trappedgases within the vacuum chamber or it's internalcomponents (usually residual water vapor) would becomeionized causing an arc discharge similar to lightening.If not adequately grounded to earth, these arcs couldbecome severe enough to damage other components thatoperated at low voltages like computers or PLC's.Providing an effective grounding systems was trickysometimes. Over-grounding could set up ground loopssometimes causing more damage than what they wereintended to prevent. Instead of using heavy copperground wire we used copper flashing to quench toenergy contained in these arcs. Worked well.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com
What are the electrical characteristics of asphault. :-)
Lets go Brandon....
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
> On 8/5/2022 10:34 PM, Alex wrote:> 345...@gmail.com wrote:>> Yeah, I know what time it is... can't sleep.>>>> Wanted to share some info and experience regarding protecting your >> home from lightning surge damage. In the late '80s while working as a >> young electrical engineer at the company I retired from, I happened to >> spot an ad in a trade mag from a company called Delta Lightning >> Arrestors out of Texas. If I recall correctly, they had developed an >> arrestor for use in the oil fields to protect equipment that got >> damaged frequently by lightning. They were a small upstart, and had >> expanded their offerings to devices that could be used in factories >> and at home. One of my coworkers, a guy named Bob Sprinkle who at the >> time was one of the top RF design engineers in the southeast, had told >> me about an issue at his home. He was at the end of a power line on >> his street, the last house fed, and he suffered from destroyed >> equipment a couple of times a year during storms. I mentioned the >> devices to him, and he wanted to try one. I worked up an order for >> 4-5 of them, called the company, and a week or so later we had our >> arrestors.>>>> They install easily in your breaker box. Two black wires connect to a >> large double-pole breaker (like a 220v, 30-40amp already used for >> water heater, stovetop, air handler, etc.) and the white wire to the >> neutral (white) buss bar or, if you are in an area that does not >> ground the neutral buss, there is a four wire version that has both >> white and ground wires. It goes inside the box because if its rating >> are exceeded it can blow a plug out of the case and spill hot silica >> (sand). It's rated for 50,000 amps, and I've never heard of one >> venting. The device I use is the LA-302R, which is about the size of >> a 12oz drink can but only half as tall.>>>> I got updates from Bob all along, but after a little more than a year >> and several storms, he had sustained no further damage after >> installation and declared it a success. I've used them since in two >> other houses without any failures. I've also installed them for 2 >> other people and have pointed others to them for themselves, and have >> never heard of any damage afterwards. I believe in them.>>>> They have expanded their business and product offerings over the >> years, and you can even buy some of it through Amazon. Their website is:>> <deltala.com> Some good info there.>>>> Oh, and we bought a new house about 8 months ago, and I just hadn't >> put one on this house yet. Lost the cable modem in a storm just a >> while back. It it was the only piece of electronics not on a UPS at >> the time. It is now, and a brand new LA-302R is sitting in the box >> waiting to be installed tomorrow.>>>> Hope this helps someone!> > I have one of these installed:> > https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HEPD80/surge-protection-device-hepd-80ka-120-240v-1-phase-3-wire-spd-type-1/ > > > It's supposed to protect the AC and refrigerators but it doesn't work > well for electronics. I've changed it out every three years even though > the light was on.> > We have a lot of power surges here. I have about nine UPS's and four of > these:> > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000512LA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 > > > FPL has a device you can pay for monthly, with a guarantee, but I don't > want to have to deal with a claim if something gets fried.> Something I learned from the high vacuum systems biz:A lightening bolt is a current carrying discharge facilitatedby ionized gas in the atmosphere. The "bolt" is considered to beboth direct current however because it is full of highfrequency AC it is also a high energy RF discharge.A typical round, heavy grounding wire becomes a coil to theRF components in the discharge and sets up a characteristicimpedance to the current the wire is intended to ground.A much better "ground" wire is a wide conductor likecopper flashing. It is much less likely to developa characteristic impedance to the RF components of thelightening strike while still maintaining an excellentconductor for the DC current components.In the high vacuum deposition systems my company builtwe used a subsystem called an electron beam power supplythat operated at 10K-12K volts DC. Often, any trappedgases within the vacuum chamber or it's internalcomponents (usually residual water vapor) would becomeionized causing an arc discharge similar to lightening.If not adequately grounded to earth, these arcs couldbecome severe enough to damage other components thatoperated at low voltages like computers or PLC's.Providing an effective grounding systems was trickysometimes. Over-grounding could set up ground loopssometimes causing more damage than what they wereintended to prevent. Instead of using heavy copperground wire we used copper flashing to quench toenergy contained in these arcs. Worked well.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com
What are the electrical characteristics of asphault. :-)
Lets go Brandon....
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
justan
Aug 6, 2022, 10:56:38 AM8/6/22
to
"Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com> Wrote in message:r
> On 8/5/2022 10:34 PM, Alex wrote:> 345...@gmail.com wrote:>> Yeah, I know what time it is... can't sleep.>>>> Wanted to share some info and experience regarding protecting your >> home from lightning surge damage. In the late '80s while working as a >> young electrical engineer at the company I retired from, I happened to >> spot an ad in a trade mag from a company called Delta Lightning >> Arrestors out of Texas. If I recall correctly, they had developed an >> arrestor for use in the oil fields to protect equipment that got >> damaged frequently by lightning. They were a small upstart, and had >> expanded their offerings to devices that could be used in factories >> and at home. One of my coworkers, a guy named Bob Sprinkle who at the >> time was one of the top RF design engineers in the southeast, had told >> me about an issue at his home. He was at the end of a power line on >> his street, the last house fed, and he suffered from destroyed >> equipment a couple of times a year during storms. I mentioned the >> devices to him, and he wanted to try one. I worked up an order for >> 4-5 of them, called the company, and a week or so later we had our >> arrestors.>>>> They install easily in your breaker box. Two black wires connect to a >> large double-pole breaker (like a 220v, 30-40amp already used for >> water heater, stovetop, air handler, etc.) and the white wire to the >> neutral (white) buss bar or, if you are in an area that does not >> ground the neutral buss, there is a four wire version that has both >> white and ground wires. It goes inside the box because if its rating >> are exceeded it can blow a plug out of the case and spill hot silica >> (sand). It's rated for 50,000 amps, and I've never heard of one >> venting. The device I use is the LA-302R, which is about the size of >> a 12oz drink can but only half as tall.>>>> I got updates from Bob all along, but after a little more than a year >> and several storms, he had sustained no further damage after >> installation and declared it a success. I've used them since in two >> other houses without any failures. I've also installed them for 2 >> other people and have pointed others to them for themselves, and have >> never heard of any damage afterwards. I believe in them.>>>> They have expanded their business and product offerings over the >> years, and you can even buy some of it through Amazon. Their website is:>> <deltala.com> Some good info there.>>>> Oh, and we bought a new house about 8 months ago, and I just hadn't >> put one on this house yet. Lost the cable modem in a storm just a >> while back. It it was the only piece of electronics not on a UPS at >> the time. It is now, and a brand new LA-302R is sitting in the box >> waiting to be installed tomorrow.>>>> Hope this helps someone!> > I have one of these installed:> > https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HEPD80/surge-protection-device-hepd-80ka-120-240v-1-phase-3-wire-spd-type-1/ > > > It's supposed to protect the AC and refrigerators but it doesn't work > well for electronics. I've changed it out every three years even though > the light was on.> > We have a lot of power surges here. I have about nine UPS's and four of > these:> > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000512LA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1 > > > FPL has a device you can pay for monthly, with a guarantee, but I don't > want to have to deal with a claim if something gets fried.> Something I learned from the high vacuum systems biz:A lightening bolt is a current carrying discharge facilitatedby ionized gas in the atmosphere. The "bolt" is considered to beboth direct current however because it is full of highfrequency AC it is also a high energy RF discharge.A typical round, heavy grounding wire becomes a coil to theRF components in the discharge and sets up a characteristicimpedance to the current the wire is intended to ground.A much better "ground" wire is a wide conductor likecopper flashing. It is much less likely to developa characteristic impedance to the RF components of thelightening strike while still maintaining an excellentconductor for the DC current components.In the high vacuum deposition systems my company builtwe used a subsystem called an electron beam power supplythat operated at 10K-12K volts DC. Often, any trappedgases within the vacuum chamber or it's internalcomponents (usually residual water vapor) would becomeionized causing an arc discharge similar to lightening.If not adequately grounded to earth, these arcs couldbecome severe enough to damage other components thatoperated at low voltages like computers or PLC's.Providing an effective grounding systems was trickysometimes. Over-grounding could set up ground loopssometimes causing more damage than what they wereintended to prevent. Instead of using heavy copperground wire we used copper flashing to quench toenergy contained in these arcs. Worked well.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com
--
Mr. Luddite
Aug 6, 2022, 12:25:56 PM8/6/22
to
*under* the asphalt.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 6, 2022, 6:57:14 PM8/6/22
to
On Sat, 6 Aug 2022 07:43:43 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
wrote:
We were told fine stranded copper was the best ESD conductor since HF
current really just travels on the skin of the wire. That is
troublesome outside tho since corrosion starts on the skin too. If you
look at lightning systems you will see braided copper wire. It might
be green down here from oxidation.
In any situation I have been in, ground loops are not an issue. I know
in the computer biz we had a philosophy left over from the olden days
about a "single point ground" and they actually had the "base plate
grounding check" as part of the installation procedure. You lift the
"single point ground" and verify there is no continuity to DC ground.
The problem is there were so many additional grounds established to
fix other problems that the process got to 20 or 30 additional grounds
that needed to be lifted and someone said stop the madness. We didn't
do that anymore. We also removed the recommendation for "isolated
ground" circuits sometime back in the Nixon administration. It became
"You can't have too much grounding and bonding". That was from
terminals and PCs up to water cooled mainframes.
In your electrical service the NEC does say there shall be only one
"main bonding jumper" between neutral and ground, "in the service
disconnect enclosure" but that has to do with not putting neutral
current on grounding conductors. You can have all the grounding
electrodes connected to the equipment grounding conductors you want.
They just need to be bonded together with big enough wire.
wrote:
current really just travels on the skin of the wire. That is
troublesome outside tho since corrosion starts on the skin too. If you
look at lightning systems you will see braided copper wire. It might
be green down here from oxidation.
In any situation I have been in, ground loops are not an issue. I know
in the computer biz we had a philosophy left over from the olden days
about a "single point ground" and they actually had the "base plate
grounding check" as part of the installation procedure. You lift the
"single point ground" and verify there is no continuity to DC ground.
The problem is there were so many additional grounds established to
fix other problems that the process got to 20 or 30 additional grounds
that needed to be lifted and someone said stop the madness. We didn't
do that anymore. We also removed the recommendation for "isolated
ground" circuits sometime back in the Nixon administration. It became
"You can't have too much grounding and bonding". That was from
terminals and PCs up to water cooled mainframes.
In your electrical service the NEC does say there shall be only one
"main bonding jumper" between neutral and ground, "in the service
disconnect enclosure" but that has to do with not putting neutral
current on grounding conductors. You can have all the grounding
electrodes connected to the equipment grounding conductors you want.
They just need to be bonded together with big enough wire.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 6, 2022, 7:04:30 PM8/6/22
to
On Sat, 6 Aug 2022 07:05:29 -0700 (PDT), "345...@gmail.com"
We had more problems with PCs, terminals and cash registers than
mainframes. That ends up being in a place with more in common with a
home than a glass house computer room.
If you really want to protect the things in your house you need to do
what I said. You need a good grounding system, point of entry
protection on all inputs, connected to that ground electrode system,
then point of use protectors at your multi input equipment. You can
certainly skip some of that, depending on your tolerance for replacing
stuff when you get hit.
mainframes. That ends up being in a place with more in common with a
home than a glass house computer room.
If you really want to protect the things in your house you need to do
what I said. You need a good grounding system, point of entry
protection on all inputs, connected to that ground electrode system,
then point of use protectors at your multi input equipment. You can
certainly skip some of that, depending on your tolerance for replacing
stuff when you get hit.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 6, 2022, 7:06:45 PM8/6/22
to
set it on fire. It just doesn't burn long.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 6, 2022, 7:16:16 PM8/6/22
to
On Sat, 6 Aug 2022 12:25:55 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
wrote:
In Florida it is sand and not a really good conductor. Have you seen
the fulgurites they have dug up here? The ionized path through the
sand creates interesting glass structures.
FPL figured out a power line can still be hit 6-8 feet underground.
DOT is scared of lightning too.
They used 40' rods and a ground ring, all Cad Welded around the MM99
toll booth I worked on. That was in a swamp where the ground water was
a few feet down although they were on 6 feet of fill above that. .
wrote:
the fulgurites they have dug up here? The ionized path through the
sand creates interesting glass structures.
FPL figured out a power line can still be hit 6-8 feet underground.
DOT is scared of lightning too.
They used 40' rods and a ground ring, all Cad Welded around the MM99
toll booth I worked on. That was in a swamp where the ground water was
a few feet down although they were on 6 feet of fill above that. .
345...@gmail.com
Aug 6, 2022, 8:24:42 PM8/6/22
to
was in a mainframe room in the biggest deployments, in the vast
majority of the cases it was simply in a closet or back room. The user
interfaces were anywhere from 100ft away to another state away in all kinds of
environments, including mobile command and response vehicles for law enforcement.
They consisted of a PC, a dedicated audio processor box, and the associated
peripherals needed to do voice dispatching. The last time you flew commercial
your aircraft talked to ramp control at the airport, and depending on the airline all
ground service was performed and the aircraft talked back to the company's
maintenance crew and scheduling dispatchers during flight through our systems.
That's just one use, but they all had to be distributed and they had to work, 24/7.
> If you really want to protect the things in your house you need to do
> what I said. You need a good grounding system, point of entry
> protection on all inputs, connected to that ground electrode system,
> then point of use protectors at your multi input equipment. You can
> certainly skip some of that, depending on your tolerance for replacing
> stuff when you get hit.
What I do believe in is the Delta device itself. Installed in otherwise reliable homes with few
other problems, the addition of one has had nothing but positive results. I didn't set
out to write a lightning protection primer, but thanks for doing it!
Bill
Aug 6, 2022, 9:30:06 PM8/6/22
to
funniest computer grounding problem we came across was both ours and IBM
systems were to a long ground rod in the middle of the building, near the
computer room. Bad grounding problems. Rod was so far from the edge of
the building all the dirt dried out. They installed a watering port and
instructions to poor a bunch of water in there every few months.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 6, 2022, 11:59:43 PM8/6/22
to
Generally in a big building the structural steel is your best ground.
It will all be bolted, riveted or welded together and it usually picks
up the pilings or foundation the building sits on.
In Florida where we are in a big sand box the Ufer ground (Named after
George Ufer) is what we are now required to use. That is connecting to
the steel in the foundation. Any plastic under the slab can not extend
to under the foundation. It may not really be "ground", whatever that
is but you do create an equipotential plane and there is a path to
ground for transients.
Dr Ufer designed this to protect ammo dumps in the American Southwest
where ground rods are not that great..
My biggest electrode is my concrete pool but I also pick up all the
steel I can get to in ground contact concrete. I have 4 rods scattered
around the house and all bonded with a 2 ga ground ring. I was lucky
to come up with 320 feet of #2 because of a screw up at IBM.
My lightning rod has been hit twice that I saw and I am not sure how
many times I don't know about. So far no damage.
Alex
Aug 7, 2022, 1:32:58 AM8/7/22
to
higher than the house and we have a concrete tile roof. I'm just trying
to protect my stuff from surges and brownouts.
Mr. Luddite
Aug 7, 2022, 6:44:02 AM8/7/22
to
rods through the concrete shop floor, about 15 feet apart from each
other. Then, we mixed a solution of water and copper sulfate and poured
the solution into the ground beside the ground rods until the measured
resistance between the rods dropped significantly.
Mr. Luddite
Aug 7, 2022, 6:55:41 AM8/7/22
to
Duxbury was hit by lightening. It hit a weather vane on top of
a cupola on the roof which was vaporized. The house had two ground
rods in the floor of a utility room where the power panels where
and the weather vane was grounded to them.
Power to the house was underground, running under a wide driveway
area in front of the garage that was adjacent to the utility room
with the power panels and grounding rods.
When the lightening struck, the whole asphalt area in front
of the garage started to snap, crackle and pop like a string of large
firecrackers. I assume it was the some of the energy from the
lightening strike being dissipated by the ground rods into the ground.
Mr. Luddite
Aug 7, 2022, 7:04:31 AM8/7/22
to
and a lightening bolt hit a folded metal table leaning against our
cottage under a huge oak tree. Burned a hole in the middle of the
table. Tree wasn't hit at all.
We had far more electrical service problems in Florida than we do up
here in MA. Lots of brownouts in Florida.
John H
Aug 7, 2022, 8:06:09 AM8/7/22
to
down out back and extending the yard a bit.
Bill
Aug 7, 2022, 11:59:12 AM8/7/22
to
Bill
Aug 7, 2022, 11:59:12 AM8/7/22
to
strike I saw as a kid, was bunch of us on our porch watching the rain, and
lighting strike hit the street couple houses away. We had overhead power
lines, etc. still hit the street. First damage I was I was 19 and
lighting hit the TV antenna for a motel and blew a hole in the roof.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 7, 2022, 12:25:33 PM8/7/22
to
On Sun, 7 Aug 2022 06:44:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
The NEC rule is <25 ohms to a "ground" the survey establishes with a
number of rods. Nobody really does that so the option is 2 rods >6'
apart. NFPA also knows rods suck so any similar "Made" electrode (pipe
or plate) only requires a 6ga wire max. That is all they can expect to
handle. Concrete encased electrodes (Ufer) requires a #4 max and
building steel or a metal water pipe gets sized to the service
conductors.
number of rods. Nobody really does that so the option is 2 rods >6'
apart. NFPA also knows rods suck so any similar "Made" electrode (pipe
or plate) only requires a 6ga wire max. That is all they can expect to
handle. Concrete encased electrodes (Ufer) requires a #4 max and
building steel or a metal water pipe gets sized to the service
conductors.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 7, 2022, 12:42:10 PM8/7/22
to
On Sun, 7 Aug 2022 07:04:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
wrote:
The first flaw is thinking lightning only hits one thing. It is more
of a shotgun than a rifle.
This is a classic example of the adage "Current doesn't take the path
of least resistance, it takes all paths". Mr Ohm tells us how that
current is divided up but in the case of lightning, there is plenty
available for everyone. That's why you don't even want to be near
something it hits.
The brownout thing must be an east coast thing. Our power is very
reliable and generally cruises at 123+v. I keep a Weston 901 meter
connected all the time in the computer room on the far end of the
house from the service entrance. I never see it below 121 or so and it
is rare that I don't have 123. We do get some anomalies but not many.
I also have a Dranitz 626 line monitor but I don't leave that
connected. The paper is expensive. I hooked it up in our office
downtown and went through a whole roll in a weekend. I had around 2-3
events a week here. The distribution station is at the end of my
street tho. They step the 230kv down to 13.5kv medium voltage street
feeder there.
wrote:
of a shotgun than a rifle.
This is a classic example of the adage "Current doesn't take the path
of least resistance, it takes all paths". Mr Ohm tells us how that
current is divided up but in the case of lightning, there is plenty
available for everyone. That's why you don't even want to be near
something it hits.
The brownout thing must be an east coast thing. Our power is very
reliable and generally cruises at 123+v. I keep a Weston 901 meter
connected all the time in the computer room on the far end of the
house from the service entrance. I never see it below 121 or so and it
is rare that I don't have 123. We do get some anomalies but not many.
I also have a Dranitz 626 line monitor but I don't leave that
connected. The paper is expensive. I hooked it up in our office
downtown and went through a whole roll in a weekend. I had around 2-3
events a week here. The distribution station is at the end of my
street tho. They step the 230kv down to 13.5kv medium voltage street
feeder there.
Bill
Aug 7, 2022, 12:42:31 PM8/7/22
to
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 7, 2022, 12:50:10 PM8/7/22
to
to the pool. The rest of my yard stays green most of the year and I
mow it but it is not really a lawn. It is whatever grows on it's own.
OTOH that little patch of Zoysia is doing great. The only thing I do
to it is water some time. I only mow it once every year or two. It
gets about 6-7" tall and stops. Judy wants me to do a patch in the
back yard in it.
345...@gmail.com
Aug 7, 2022, 1:45:48 PM8/7/22
to
the hill in our backyard. ~100 ft of 5-7 ft tall block retaining wall.
Putting in irrigation, lots of plants and trees, ground cover, and drainage.
Mon/Tues is sod day, putting down around 3000 sq. ft. Doing most of the
rest in hydraseed or just seeding with hay.
An area will be a rock garden with plants and a fountain.
All this after adding a portico on the back of the house by extending the roofline
over some existing concrete and doing the ceiling, columns and trim in natural wood
sealed in clear. And adding another 8 ft clear inside an addition to the detached garage
in brick and extended roofline to match for lawnmower and yard tool storage, among
other stuff.
Just doing the new pool we decided against would have been about the same cost.
I'm done.
Mr. Luddite
Aug 7, 2022, 1:52:19 PM8/7/22
to
There were days the 123v line would drop to 110v or less.
John H
Aug 7, 2022, 8:17:36 PM8/7/22
to
John H
Aug 7, 2022, 8:19:15 PM8/7/22
to
put gravel down. Built a concrete platform, painted it green, and put
his lawn mower, also green, on the platform. Looked pretty damn good.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 7, 2022, 8:20:15 PM8/7/22
to
service conductor size but with rods and Ufers, they understand you
are getting all you can get with a #6 or a #4.
The minimum size would be #8 for any GEC and that is the typical 100a
service. (2 ga SE conductor)
Your typical 200a service would be 2/0 copper or 4/0 al requiring a #4
cu GEC but if you are using rods you still only need a #6. It just
points out how bad rods really perform.
John H
Aug 7, 2022, 8:22:04 PM8/7/22
to
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 7, 2022, 8:26:16 PM8/7/22
to
having machines runnuing around there for a few days pretty much
destroyed about half the grass. We are not sure how we are going to
deal with it. I assume the weeds will take over as soon as they stop
running over it. I would like to jump start it tho while it is still
raining every day. I am just not sure what to do.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 7, 2022, 8:30:04 PM8/7/22
to
On Sun, 7 Aug 2022 13:52:20 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" <not...@noland.com>
My Dutch friend gave me a variac when he was leaving town but the only
real use for it is running the kitchen fridge on the generator that
only puts out 115 and that ends up being around 111 at the fridge. It
works but not well.
real use for it is running the kitchen fridge on the generator that
only puts out 115 and that ends up being around 111 at the fridge. It
works but not well.
Bill
Aug 9, 2022, 9:31:21 PM8/9/22
to
lawnmower on it. Lawnmower lasted for years after the station was tore
down.
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 10, 2022, 12:56:04 AM8/10/22
to
On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 01:31:19 -0000 (UTC), Bill
If it was an old Briggs, it probably would start with fresh gas.
Bill
Aug 11, 2022, 5:38:25 PM8/11/22
to
gfre...@aol.com
Aug 11, 2022, 7:54:28 PM8/11/22
to
This one still works.
https://gfretwell.com/ftp/Amish%20lawn%20tractor.jpg
Bill
Aug 12, 2022, 10:53:57 AM8/12/22
to
1950’s.They had huge area around the house of Bermuda grass. And
sometimes staked a cow out to eat it, and rest of the time, put the
grandkids out there with the electrified push mower. Except for cutting
the cord a couple times worked well. Before rotary gas mowers.
0 new messages