Running Backstay Question
Matthew W. Blake
I am considering purchase of a Beneteau First 375 with running backstays.
Although we will race it occasionally, we will mainly be cruising, weekend
sailing in the San Francisco Bay. I would like opinions/discussions on
running backstays (which this boat has).
Specifically, if we are short handed, can we just sail without them? The
boat does have a central adjustable backstay.
What are the penalties or dangers to the rig of sailing without setting
these running back stays?
I believe if the running backstay is set and we accidently jibe we will
probably lose the mast. Is this true?
Can the boat be re-rigged without the running stays? How do other high
performance boats get the same stability without the running stays?
How about a discussion on the matter.....
Matt Blake
bl...@nas.nasa.gov
Dave Kell
Is the First 375 a fractional rig? If so, the runners are required in order
to get decent tension on the forestay. Tightening the fixed backstay on a
fractional boat just bends the mast, without adding significant forestay
tension.
A lot of the answer depends on the mast itself. I currently race on a
masthead rigged boat with runners, which provide support to keep the
(quite thin) mast in section. In calm water they can be left off (or
tightened at your leisure), but when it's choppy they must be set up
right away to keep the mast from pumping. If the mast is more beefy,
runners may be used mostly for sail shape.
Personally, I'm not keen on running backstays for cruising, unless they
are to provide support for the inner forestay on a cutter rig. I wouldn't
want any rigging on my boat that could cause a mast failure just because
somebody set it up wrong. For fractional rigged boats, I think runners are
required because you can't get enough forestay tension without them. I much
prefer the masthead rig.
dK
===========================================================================
Dave Kell (604) 293-5753 ke...@mowgli.mpr.ca
MPR Teltech Ltd. mprgate.mpr.ca!ke...@uunet.uu.net
8999 Nelson Way
Burnaby, BC, CANADA
V5A 4B5
===========================================================================
John Senger
backstays attached where they should be. I race on a Tartan 42 out
of a yacht club in Detroit, and we have our runners hooked to a bail
at the base of the mast. During a typical race (ie not the Mac races)
the shape of the main is controlled mostly by the adjustable center
backstay. The runners are used very rarely because on this boat, at
least, they don't have much effect - the mast is rather trunk-like!!
I don't know what the rig on the boat you are considering is like,
but I'd guess that if it's not a toothpick/purely racing section, then
you'd probably be ok without the runners.
--
John Senger
"If we weren't all crazy, we would go insane" - JB
Sail hard, sail fast, sail naked!!!
Stefan Michalowski
>
>I am considering purchase of a Beneteau First 375 with running backstays.
>Although we will race it occasionally, we will mainly be cruising, weekend
>sailing in the San Francisco Bay. I would like opinions/discussions on
>running backstays (which this boat has).
Matthew,
I would hesitate to take any advice about running backs that did not
apply specifically to your boat. Some rigs use them only for sail trim,
some rely on them to hold up the stick.
I crew regularly on the Beneteau First 42 "Rocinante". We use the running
backs all the time, but I doubt very much that we would loose any speed
if we left them off. As you know, they are a tremendous pain in the ass,
and a safety hazard as well. I've noticed this on other boats, too: the
least experienced member of the crew (one of the owner's office pals, for
instance) is assigned the tedious task of shifting the RBs on each tack.
It's not so bad when they forget to do this on a tack, but on a jibe....
One of our competitors, "Maluhia", seems to only rig them in a blow.
I hope you buy the Beneteau. I'm really impressed by these boats, except for
the newer ones (ex. 45f5) with their Pininfarina logo. I like the looks of
my '74 Alfa Spider, but I'm not sure that I would trust them to do the deck
layout on my boat.
Stefan
P.S. Let me know if you need crew.
Lauri Tarkkonen
>In article <1992Nov9.2...@nas.nasa.gov> bl...@wk60.nas.nasa.gov (Matthew W. Blake) writes:
>>
>I would hesitate to take any advice about running backs that did not
>apply specifically to your boat. Some rigs use them only for sail trim,
>some rely on them to hold up the stick.
The question of the need of running backstays is a complicated one, it
includes the type of the rig; masthead, fractional, the type of the
spreaders; straight or angled and the proportions of the spar and the
sail.
My opinion is that if the running backstays are needed to keep the mast
upp, the design is poor and unseamanlike. If they are needed for tuning
purposes they might be usefull to have.
I have a forty feet boat, with a fractional rig with some 15 degrees swept
spreaders, most boats of the same class use the running backstays whole
the time, but I have found out that the rig stands well without them and
I use them only in heavy weather (apparent wind over 20 knots) or if I am
sailing in big seas in open legs, where I can set the running bacstay more
or less permanently. If I take in two reefs of the main, the top main will
be at the level of the hounds and I can set the running backstays tight
and they do not bother me at all. In some occasions while racing I might
hang up the preventer stays (a lower set of running backstays) just for
tuning purposes.
>I crew regularly on the Beneteau First 42 "Rocinante". We use the running
>backs all the time, but I doubt very much that we would loose any speed
>if we left them off. As you know, they are a tremendous pain in the ass,
>and a safety hazard as well. I've noticed this on other boats, too: the
>least experienced member of the crew (one of the owner's office pals, for
>instance) is assigned the tedious task of shifting the RBs on each tack.
>It's not so bad when they forget to do this on a tack, but on a jibe....
With some masthead rigs the mast can get in heavy seas in pumping motion
that is really dangerous. Then I suggest that one is using his running
backstays, but I would not recommend that rig in the first place.
>One of our competitors, "Maluhia", seems to only rig them in a blow.
If you have people around that have an eye to the behavior of the rig
it can be done quite safely. Though I have friends to whom I would not
recommend this system, because they would break their mast soon.
- Lauri Tarkkonen
Bruce Munro
>Although we will race it occasionally, we will mainly be cruising, weekend
>sailing in the San Francisco Bay. I would like opinions/discussions on
>running backstays (which this boat has).
>
>Specifically, if we are short handed, can we just sail without them? The
>boat does have a central adjustable backstay.
>
>What are the penalties or dangers to the rig of sailing without setting
>these running back stays?
>
>I believe if the running backstay is set and we accidently jibe we will
>probably lose the mast. Is this true?
It depends on the mast and spreader setup. Some fractional rigs, especially
on more "cruisy" type boats would have a reasonably solid mast and swept
back spreaders so that the shrouds provide fore-aft support to the rig. The
runners in this case are just for tensioning the forestay when going to
windward. I race a boat like this and can assure that we've had a few
Chinese gybes with the kite up in heavy blows and the rig is still up there.
The more "racy" boats will likely have a thinner mast section that is
very bendy and will not have swept-back spreaders. In this case the
runners provide all the support for the mast from aft. A boat like
this would also most likely have check stays for control over the bend
of the middle of the mast. Boats like this do have a tendency to lose
rigs in Chinese gybes, although it's by no means 100% certain that it'll
happen. In fact my (limited) experience of such disasters on boats like
this hasn't resulted in the rig coming down yet. Probably more luck than
anything else though. You probably wouldn't want to cruise a boat like
this unless you were pretty experienced, and had experienced crew.
>Can the boat be re-rigged without the running stays? How do other high
>performance boats get the same stability without the running stays?
They either have masthead rigs, or use swept-back spreaders to hold the
mast up downwind. Not having the runners will sacrifice the ability to
tension the forestay, but for crusing this might not be an important
consideration. Then again if the runners are only for this purpose, and
not for also supporting the rig, then they're not that much extra-hassle
anyway. You don't need to rush to put them on after tacking or whatever, just
wind it in when you've done everything else. One thing to watch out for is
that in a blow if you tack without releasing the "old" runner then it'll
hold the mainsail in and prevent you from bearing away. Not a happy state
of affairs when short-tacking in the Round the Island Race amongst a fleet
of 1500 boats! :-( Can you say 720? I thought you could. Luckily the
collision was very minor! :-)
>How about a discussion on the matter.....
Good idea.
--
Bruce Munro. <B.M...@bnr.co.uk> || ...!mcsun!uknet!bnruk!B.Munro
BNR Europe Ltd, Oakleigh Rd South, London N11 1HB. | Note the change
Phone : +44 81 945 2174 or +44 81 945 4000 x2174 | of e-mail address.
"There are no strangers, only friends we don't recognise" - Hank Wangford
Stefan Michalowski
>>I'm really impressed by these boats, except for the newer ones (ex. 45f5)
Then Bruce wrote:
>Blimey! I've been very impressed with the 45f5, usually as they've sailed
>past the boat I'm racing on! The "f" stands for Farr, and it was the Kiwi
>genius that designed them. They're excellent cruiser-racer yachts.
I know that Beneteau uses the best designers like Farr and Frers
(First 42). They have a deserved reputation for being fast and
rugged. What bugs me is the phoney-baloney appearance of the latest
models. The deck layout on the 45f5 looks like a landlubber's version
of what a sailboat SHOULD look like in the 21st century. I wonder just
how much time the lads at Pininfarina have spent trying to find a good
way to brace themselves while grinding those big winches, or sitting
for a few hours on the rail in the wet and cold? Similarly, the
interiors I've peeked into have that "designer" look, with funereal
dark mahogany and artsy white marble. I'll admit that I haven't sailed
on the newer boats, but I still think Pininfarina should stick to cars
and toasters.
S.
Bruce Munro
>
>I hope you buy the Beneteau. I'm really impressed by these boats, except for
>the newer ones (ex. 45f5) with their Pininfarina logo. I like the looks of
>my '74 Alfa Spider, but I'm not sure that I would trust them to do the deck
>layout on my boat.
Blimey! I've been very impressed with the 45f5, usually as they've sailed
past the boat I'm racing on! The "f" stands for Farr, and it was the Kiwi
genius that designed them. They're excellent cruiser-racer yachts.
--
Lars Vatne
|> My opinion is that if the running backstays are needed to keep the mast
|> upp, the design is poor and unseamanlike. If they are needed for tuning
|> purposes they might be usefull to have.
Of course, this is a bit beside the point as the discussion is about cruiser/
racers here, but I've crewed (delivery) on a racing boat that didn't have
any fixed backstay, only runners. Talk about scary gybing!
The boat? One-tonner "Fram XI", Bruce Farr design, built by Cookson. 6th
in this years World Championship (although I wasn't on board at the time).
The owner? King Harald of Norway
--
Lars Vatne Phone : +47 2 63 76 51
Engineering Division Fax : +47 2 63 84 97
Alcatel Telecom Norway AS e-mail : lars....@alcatel.no
R.J.Hare
backstays. These were sail training yachts so safety was a consideration, but
we nearly always used the backstays. Almost the only time we wouldn't use them
would be off the winfe wind in light(ish) airs. We would never go to windward
without them. If you got 'em, use 'em (though I agree, they can be a pain!).
Roger Hare.
Jeremy Bloxham
>
>Of course, this is a bit beside the point as the discussion is about cruiser/
>racers here, but I've crewed (delivery) on a racing boat that didn't have
>any fixed backstay, only runners. Talk about scary gybing!
>
>The boat? One-tonner "Fram XI", Bruce Farr design, built by Cookson. 6th
>in this years World Championship (although I wasn't on board at the time).
>The owner? King Harald of Norway
>
>--
>Lars Vatne Phone : +47 2 63 76 51
About ten years ago, I crewed on a 1/4 tonner in the Tomatin Trophy
race week on the west coast of Scotland. This particular boat had
running shrouds. The shrouds on each side attached to tracks which ran
aft from slightly aft of the mast about three or four feet. To let the
main out much beyond a close reach it was necessary to let the leeward
shroud run forward. If the windward shroud was accidentally released or
not brought aft rapidly enough during a gybe the mast would have gone
straight over the side. At the end of the week the mast was still
standing, a small miracle in my opinion.
I'm sorry I don't remember the boat's name - I think I may have a
photograph somewhere at home. In better weather I'm sure that this
could be a great race week, but that year it was probably one of the
most uncomfortable week's sailing I've ever had. Loch Fyne in May can
be very, very cold.
Jeremy
Jeff Huntington
> I know that Beneteau uses the best designers like Farr and Frers
> (First 42). They have a deserved reputation for being fast and
> rugged. What bugs me is the phoney-baloney appearance of the latest
> models.
I don't want to dwell on this too much, but I just noticed a add in which quite
a few Oceanas (or whatever they are) were pictured. They all have the horizontal
hull extension at transom as does my friends first 32.5. Anyone considering one
of these boats should really consider whether they want to put up with the terrible
noise that results from water slapping on this extended transom.
Jeff Huntington
Dave Harsant
>wind it in when you've done everything else. One thing to watch out for is
>that in a blow if you tack without releasing the "old" runner then it'll
>hold the mainsail in and prevent you from bearing away. Not a happy state
It also radically increases the heeling force at the top of the main, and
can knock you down in a bit of a breeze.
--
Dave Harsant,
Telecom Australia Research Laboratories | d.ha...@trl.oz.au