Another Bayliner buying question
Shannon Maher
OK, so I just read through a huge thread of "whatsamadda with Bayliners". It's
clear that some Bayliners have had quality problems - however, like most anecdotal
info, it's hard to get any concrete info on what is systematically wrong.
So, I'm looking for this "concrete" info (I can't help it - I'm an engineer, so I
have to be analytical). I have found two boats that seem (at least , until I
read the Bayliner thread on the net) to be reasonable. The first is a 1985
Bayliner 19 1/2' cuddy with a Volvo Penta freshwater cooled 4 cylinder inboard (the
dealer wants $5500). The second is a 1991 20 1/2' Bayliner Capri with a Force Ldrive
4 cylinder ($7995 asking price). (what with the Ldrive? These were apparently only
made for a few years? I can't get any solid info on these...).
Anything IN PARTICULAR that I should inspect or have inspected about these? What
about the age of the hull - there seems to be an indication in the Bayliner
thread that Bayliners started to get better around 1990? What about the Ldrive?
Should I just expect to spend more money if I want something reliable and safe?
I'm a father of two young girls (18 months and 4 years); I want to buy my first boats
since I was a kid (~20 years). For the forseeable future, we will be crusing the
bays off Washington's coast, or the lakes in Western Washington. It seems to me that
for there may be an opportunity to buy a used Bayliner, in part to see if this form
of recreation has a chance of being fun for my family - however, I don't want to buy
a boat that I will HAVE to replace in 2 years or that will be the CAUSE of my family
not boating.
Decisions, decisions. Thanks for any info you can give us.
Shannon Maher
Ronald Powers
price got as high as a sterndrive. Volvos are expensive to repair.
Bayliners are good boats. Stick with Mercruiser sterndrives. Ron Powers
Jack Patteeuw
In article <4t04g0$4...@news.halcyon.com>, Shannon Maher <sma...@optimas.com> writes:
>OK, so I just read through a huge thread of "whatsamadda with Bayliners". It's
>clear that some Bayliners have had quality problems - however, like most anecdotal
>info, it's hard to get any concrete info on what is systematically wrong.
>
>So, I'm looking for this "concrete" info (I can't help it - I'm an engineer, so I
>have to be analytical). I have found two boats that seem (at least , until I
>read the Bayliner thread on the net) to be reasonable. The first is a 1985
>Bayliner 19 1/2' cuddy with a Volvo Penta freshwater cooled 4 cylinder inboard (the
>dealer wants $5500). The second is a 1991 20 1/2' Bayliner Capri with a Force Ldrive
>4 cylinder ($7995 asking price). (what with the Ldrive? These were apparently only
>made for a few years? I can't get any solid info on these...).
>
>Anything IN PARTICULAR that I should inspect or have inspected about these? What
>about the age of the hull - there seems to be an indication in the Bayliner
>thread that Bayliners started to get better around 1990? What about the Ldrive?
>Should I just expect to spend more money if I want something reliable and safe?
>
<snip>
Let me start out by saying I have no personal experience with Bayliner, so
I have no "ax to grind".
Bayliners have (for some time now) been a "low cost" boat and gotten a bad
reputation. Consequently their resale vale is much worse than other "name
brand" boats. Low cost is not necessarily bad (there are a lot more low
end boats on the market these days).
In case no one has told you, "a boat is a hole in the water that you throw
money into". Buying a used boat (especially a "bargin") can be very
expensive (I just junked a boat that I bought for $500 because the repairs
to put it in good condition would be over $2000, not including my labor).
Before you buy, you need to do some more research. Go to your library and
find books on boat repair. Most will have a chapter or two on what to look
out for in a used boat. Read magazines. I recommend Trailer Boat,
especially the current (July ? August ?) issue which is a 25 year look at
the trailer boat industry (bonus, it explains what an L-drive is !! You
don't want one !!!) This probably mean that you won't be on the water
soon.
Finally, remember when you buy a boat, it will always have to be serviced,
either by yourself or by a marina. Is there a dealer or independent marina
near you that will do the repairs.
Also remember, for the most part, you get what you pay for. If it is much
cheaper than other boats of approximately the same size and vintage, then
you should be suspicious.
Jack
Jack Patteeuw
My opinions are my own and not my employer's, my wife's, or my children !
"I used to do VMS, Stolen from a good friend:
Now I do Unix; "A mind is like a parachute ...
It's a living" It only works when it is open !"
Richard Chahley
Shannon Maher wrote:
>
> OK, so I just read through a huge thread of "whatsamadda with Bayliners". It's
> clear that some Bayliners have had quality problems - however, like most anecdotal
> info, it's hard to get any concrete info on what is systematically wrong.
>
> So, I'm looking for this "concrete" info (I can't help it - I'm an engineer, so I
> have to be analytical).
Shannon,
Having just purchases my second Bayliner (1st - 1988 2455, 2nd - 1989
2655), let me share some of my 1st hand experiences...
1 - I find everything about the structural integrity of Bayliner to
be unquestionable (I'm no structural expert, but there is nothing
that I've noticed that would give me "pause" and I've looked and
touched almost everything).
2 - The so called "fit and finish" ranges thru ok - good - very_good
omitting poor and excellent. Generally speaking, the fit and
finish is a little on the K-Mart side. But everything works, and
if well maintained, works well.
3 - Some examples of what has gone wrong.
- The canvess is terrible, the zippers are poor, the "fit" leaves
big huge gaps where rain pours in, and the snaps almost require
a hammer to put on and a crowbar to pull off. But maybe this is
just symptomatic of a canvess top that has been weathering for
7 years now (still the original top). No problem, I wanted to
get a new top anyway and have it extended into the camper back.
- Because of the point above, all the wood backing for the seats
is rotting. You can tell because when the inside gets wet, the
water run-off turns yellowish. No problem, I like woodworking
and taking apart the seats to replace the wood is no big deal
(don't forget to get stainless steel staples :-)
- The radar arch was loose when I bought the boat... no probs, just
tighten the bolts. But I couldn't because the bolts were tightened
already to the end of the thread. No problem, off to the h/w store
to buy lots of washers to act like spacers.
- Some little leaks inside the cabin when it rains... apparently
water was coming thru the screws used to fasten the windshield in
place. No problem, gave me an excuse to remove ALL outside screws
and squirt some silicone in then retighten.
- The rope locker at the bow was carpeted (?!) with no drainage to
the outside. So whenever you used the anchor then stored the
wet line, the front vee-berth would get a little wet. No problem,
a simple drainage hole thru the hull (with cover on) solved that
problem and gave me an excuse to clean the locker.
These are some of the points I remember... there is one common theme
here which is "No problem... I enjoy this tinkering!" In my opinion,
Bayliners are fine craft. Sure there's a fit & finish that certainly
is not gold plated, but I'm not trying to impress anyone (including
myself). Structurally, maybe they use 4 screws instead of 5, but
this has never giving me any cause for alarm or worry. The boat can
take a beating in the waves, the engine (OMC) is sound, it handles
very well, and it drinks the gas with the best of them.
If you don't mind the odd tinkering, then why not. Bayliner's are
"cookie-cutter" boats... they give me the same enjoyment as the other
"classier" boats, and they leave some extra $$ in the bank for the
other things in life.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Richard Chahley rcha...@on.bell.ca
Cruising, diving the St. Lawrence out of Prescott, Ontario
Old Salt
Jack Patteeuw (patt...@sys2.ped.pto.ford.com) wrote:
<snip>
: Finally, remember when you buy a boat, it will always have to be serviced,
: either by yourself or by a marina. Is there a dealer or independent marina
: near you that will do the repairs.
This isn't true. A good friend of my got totally frustrated with the dealer
not being able to fix the problem with his engine. So he pulled his boat,
drove it to the local garage, and the auto mechanic fixed the problem in
about 30mins. This is one advantage of an American engine for the inboard.
Just remember to bring a water hose and water "ear mufs" so they can run
the engine.
-Brett
Patrick O'Neill
SNIP
>I have found two boats that seem (at least , until I
> read the Bayliner thread on the net) to be reasonable. The first is a 1985
> Bayliner 19 1/2' cuddy with a Volvo Penta freshwater cooled 4 cylinder
inboard (the
> dealer wants $5500). The second is a 1991 20 1/2' Bayliner Capri with a
Force Ldrive
> 4 cylinder ($7995 asking price). (what with the Ldrive? These were
apparently only
> made for a few years? I can't get any solid info on these...).
>
> Anything IN PARTICULAR that I should inspect or have inspected about
these? What
> about the age of the hull - there seems to be an indication in the Bayliner
> thread that Bayliners started to get better around 1990? What about the
Ldrive?
> Should I just expect to spend more money if I want something reliable
and safe?
>
SNIP
GOOD questions! I am a current Bayliner owner, on my second one. Here
are some observations in random order:
1) I wouldn't touch the 1985 cuddy. The mid 80's were BAD for smaller
Bayliners, and they were almost ALL underpowered. A 4 cyl in a 19 ft boat
is gonna mean slow to a plane and slower top speed. The Volvo engines
themselves are VERY good - it is just too small for that boat.
2) The 20 ft 91 Capri is a nice design - they have a pretty decent amount
of room. The L-Drive is not necesarily bad, but they only made it for one
or two years. It is essentially a Force outboard powerhead mated to an
I/O style outdrive that can be tilted and trimmed. It will be a little
less economical with the fuel and oil, and it is (to me) a little loud. I
have heard some hearsay reports about service and parts availability
problems, but nothing firsthand.
3) I LIKE Bayliners. They had their bad period (mid-80's), but they seem
to be well out of it. Heck, even Sea Ray had their bad period! (I can't
even COUNT the number of Sea-Ray Seville's I have seen that are just
falling apart).
4) You may here alot of crap about resale value. I think that is IS
mostly crap. My first Bayliner was a 1977 20 ft Calypso (GREAT boat), and
I sold it after 5 years for $400 more than I paid for it. And NO, it
wasn't because I put alot of extra electronics or improvements into it - I
just took care of it. Bayliners are VERY affordable, and because of this
there are alot of people who bought them and just left them outside to
rot. They were cheap, so they didn't take care of them very well. THIS
will hurt the resale value of ANY boat. I have seen some beautiful older
Bayliners for sale that asked for and received a very good price. Just
TAKE CARE of the darn thing!
5) Always have a good mechanic do a pre-purchase inspection on the
engine. Bounce around on the floorboards - see if there are any soft
spots that could mean wood rot. Check out the TRAILER very well - they
can be almost as expensive to fix as the boat! Look underneath the boat
at the bottom of the hull - any big chunks missing, or signs of a
not-so-great patch job?
I myself would probably pass on both boats - the first because of quality
and underpowering concerns, and the second because of the L-Drive.
There's alot of good boats out there!
--
Patrick O'Neill
ozo...@wolfenet.com
"The stability of a thing, just like that of man, does not consist in its being shielded from all disturbances and thus preserving a precarious balance; it consists in the ability to recover from disturbances that inevitably will occur, and to regain lost balance."
Wolfgang Langewiesche
1329C1000-Garry Heon(MT4084)NOBIN
In article <31F550...@on.bell.ca>,
Richard Chahley <rcha...@on.bell.ca> wrote:
>Shannon Maher wrote:
Snipped all the "NO PROBLEMS"
>These are some of the points I remember... there is one common theme
>here which is "No problem... I enjoy this tinkering!" In my opinion,
So if you saw all these "no problems" then could you imagine all the
"no problems" that you can't see. Things like "I forgot to put two
layers of laminate in the hull when I was laying it up." It's no secret
that I not a Bayliner fan, for that matter I'm not a fan of any spit
them out production boat. Your post about all the "no problems" just
make me feel more insecure about the boats.
>If you don't mind the odd tinkering, then why not. Bayliner's are
>"cookie-cutter" boats... they give me the same enjoyment as the other
>"classier" boats, and they leave some extra $$ in the bank for the
>other things in life.
Sure, you sit at the dock and tinker while I use my boat.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>J. Richard Chahley rcha...@on.bell.ca
>Cruising, diving the St. Lawrence out of Prescott, Ontario
Garry Heon
First Stepp
ga...@holly.mt.lucent.com
My Opinions....Lucent's Network.
Joe Thon
shannon,
sounds as if you really want to buy a bayliner. I am a sailor, so forgive
my intrusion into a powerboating question, but --
the true cost of boat ownership can only be ascertained when the boat in
question has been purchased, maintained, and sold. bayliners (and volvo
engines) have had enough isues raised with their quality to significantly
diminish their resale value. you are likely going to better off to spend
more money going in, spend less in upkeep, and sell for more going out.
also your enjoyment and safety will likely be greater.
one last but really important fact; next to boating the thing boaters
seem to like best is talking aboout boats. when you and your friends are
setting around b.s.'ing about boats, are you really going to want to
tell all of the old salts that you own a bayliner, instead of a better
respected vessel. my advise is wait a year, save your money, and go for a
finer vessel.
joe
aboard "VITTORIA"
Westerly, RI
Byron P. Matthews
Shannon Maher wrote:
>
> OK, so I just read through a huge thread of "whatsamadda with
> Bayliners". It's clear that some Bayliners have had quality problems
> - however, like most anecdotal info, it's hard to get any concrete
>
> . . . (various snips) . . .
>
> Shannon Maher
After reading the rest of this thread, I'd like to pass along an
observation or two from my experiences with my 1976 Bayliner 22.5
"Skagit" sedan cruiser that I hope might be helpful if you consider an
older boat. In short, get your prospective boat surveyed, and after you
buy it, tinker with it to get to know the boat thoroughly and to catch
little problems before they become big expensive (correction -- MORE
expensive ;-) ones.
Regarding Bayliners, I would say that NEVER, EVER did I think I'd own a
production fiberglass powerboat, MUCH less an ungainly and nasty-looking
old Bayliner, since I build small (<18 feet) cold-molded wooden
sailboats as a hobby. But 3 years ago I started looking for a
casual "party" powerboat big enough in which to feel relatively safe on
Puget Sound with 3 or 4 family and friends aboard, and at the time I
didn't want to spend three years or so of weekends dabbling in epoxy and
plywood building my own boat along the lines of a nice Devlin Black
Crown 26 or the like.
The local market for small power cruising boats was (to me) fairly
expensive; but then, by golly, I began to open my eyes a little bit to
see mid- to late-seventies Bayliners that had the features I wanted and
were in my price range (<$10K).
The boat I ended up buying was sold on consignment arising from what I
was told was a health crisis/distress situation. The previous owner
evidently really liked the boat as he had done a very nice job
reupholstering the cabin interior and cockpit and had had the Volvo 170
inline gasoline 6's cylinder head reconditioned. The engine had about
1,300 hours on it at the time of sale. The boat surveyed and tested out
OK and ran acceptably in sea trials, but needed lots of TLC and quite a
bit of tuning (carbs especially) from having sat unused for a couple of
years.
So far in the course of ownership I've cleaned and overhauled the
carburetors, unstuck after considerable profanity the gearshift linkage
inside the Volvo 280 outdrive when it galled (gggrrrrrrrr), replaced the
outdrive lift motor, replaced the engine cooling water circulating pump,
replaced the raw water pump impeller, replaced the batteries, did a
comprehensive ignition tune-up, replaced the voltage regulator, and have
done more diagnosing and repairing of errant little electrical quirks
than I can recount. Otherwise I've done oil and filter changes, valve
adjustments, and other maintenance items by the book.
The upshot is that I enjoy the boat for its purposes -- getting quickly
and easily out into the San Juans from Anacortes for day cruises at the
drop of hat -- but I am a tinkerer and spend as much time fiddling
around with the boat as actually using it. If I didn't have the ability
to work on the boat myself there is no way I could own and operate it.
It lives on its trailer in the backyard where I can readily take care of
it instead of having it languish forgotten in a boatyard. So I catch a
lot of maintenance and repair items while fiddling with the boat at home
that might well leave us stranded on the water sans fiddling.
I endure lots of kidding about the boat's ugly ducking appearance, but
it's clean, in good working order, and does the job adequately. I
suppose one of those maxims about it being better to have some sort of
ugly old boat than no boat at all may apply!
I haven't had any identifiable problems yet with this 20-year old
Bayliner attributable to hull construction/manufacturing quality. If
the boat you're thinking about has been well cared for, surveys OK and
tests well, the only other caveat I could think of would be that you
might need to enjoy tinkering with the boat and performing routine
maintenance as much as actually taking it out on the water. I believe
this is true to an extent with every boat, brand-new highest-quality
yachts included, but certainly more so with older "doggy" boats like
mine. But we enjoy the boat and have caught the problems well before
being stranded.
Good luck and safe boating, Byron Matthews
Roger Jarman
As a marine surveyor and the former director of quality and production
engineering at a large yacht builder here in the northwest, I have to
say I agree with your advice. The definition I give my customers for
boat quality is "The most boat for the least cost that will do the job
that YOU want to do safely".
Roger
Hal Lynch
I have had my Bayliner Capri 19' er for 5 years now so I think
I can address some of the concerns of potential buyers.
My Bayliner is an 1987 which I bought used. It is an
open bow model with a 5.0L Chevy V8 and an OMC Cobra drive.
I don't baby my boat but I don't abuse or neglect it either (much).
In the 5 years I have had my boat nothing has broken. Nothing
has fallen off. It has never failed to give me a day or more
on the water. It has never failed to get me home. There is in
my opinion only one important design flaw which I will address
later. Potential Bayliner owners need to remember one point;
A Bayliner is an entry level boat and they don't use two screws
when one will do.
I use the boat on lakes ranging from small reservoirs
to lakes Powell and Mead. Most of the time I use the boat for
watersports. On Powell and Mead I camp some and tour a lot.
Recently I took the boat on a ninety mile round trip from
Wahweap to Rainbow Bridge and back on Lake Powell in a long
afternoon, at all speeds in all water conditions.
Usually there are four to six people on board with gear to match.
I do all routine maintenance myself. Except for expected wear
and tear that is all that has been necessary. I use the best
materials I can buy and don't let things slide. I enjoy puttering
around so my Bayliner is a better boat now than when I bought it.
For example when I bought it the consoles shook and rattled (used
entry level boat). A couple of hours, some aluminum angle, and
screws made the consoles rock solid. Things have worn out,
upholstry, and bilge blower for example. I broke the kill switch
and dinged the prop big time. My point here is that most boats,
Bayliner included work about as well as the care given them,
particularly used (old) boats.
Would I buy another bayliner? I don't think so for the folowing
reasons:
- I don't like the "Euro Style" looks of the newer Bayliners, a
"fault" shared with most other boat manufactors.
- In my opinion the major (design) fault with my Bayliner is the
ride. In a decent chop the ride can become brutal. Even at
the slowest planing speeds (~20MPH) in a good chop the slaming
is uncomfortable for me and painful for my wife, and this with
the drive tucked all the way in. In all fairness Bayliner isn't
the only boat with this problem and I haven't ridden in a new
Bayliner.
In conclusion (finally)
- Of all the criteria I have for choosing my next boat the first
three are "ride, ride, ride". If your significant other is not
having a good time your not having a good time.
- If Bayliner improves the styling (no time soon) and fixes the ride
(doubtful) I wouldn't mind buying another one.
hal
Bill Walker
>I have had my Bayliner Capri 19' er for 5 years now so I think
>I can address some of the concerns of potential buyers.
>
>My Bayliner is an 1987 which I bought used.
[...]
>Things have worn out,
>upholstry, and bilge blower for example.
[...]
Can't speak to the previous owner's care, of course, but here's a counter
example: my brother-in-law's '67 Dorsett, which was previously mine and
was bought new by my father in '67, still has the original upholstery.
One back seat (the one everybody steps on when climbing into the boat
after skiing) is torn. The rest of the upholstery still looks good.
In fairness, the boat has always been covered when not in use, was parked
in a carport or barn in winter (such as it is in California), and has been
garaged since '83. And I hit the vinyl with Armor-All once a year. But
the boat was used most weekends every summer during its life. Seems to me
that Dorsett used better upholstery than Bayliner. Then again, Bayliner's
still in business, while Dorsett is long gone (went belly-up in '68 or
'69).
----------------------------------------------
Bill Walker, QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA USA
WWa...@qualcomm.com