Sea Rayder F 16?
Inge Almås
weather, speed with 120 HP jet etc? I am seriously considering getting one
(used).
Any opininons highly appreciated.
Inge Almaas
H Krause
Oh oh. I feel an upheaval coming from Larry of the Carolinas...
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Irony: God gave the tortoise a drag factor of .03
Jeff Hill
one with the 120 HP engine. They upgraded the engine in 96 with many
improvements (ignition system, piston ring material upgrades, pump). I
have a 120 HP in our boat...it seems fine in regards to power, etc.
Good luck.
VinBeanie
Sea Rayder with the Merc 175hp engine instead. I have a similar jetboat called
a SugarSand and love it. It have the Merc 175hp engine in it and it's great!!
Vin.
olove
and bought a real boat. The boat was still in the plastic. Came from the factory
with misaligned gasket on the bottom carb. Fried the bottom 2 pistons after 5hrs.
The replacement powerhead came with a leaking exhaust gasket. Sprayed water all
over the place. The next powerhead was fine. I traded it in at the end of the
summer.
30 of the first 90 days of owning the boat were spent being repaired. Also had
stress
cracks in the hull.
MuryMann
OMC franchise. He said 12 of the 18 they sold in 1997 came back for engine work
on warrantee.
Not good odds.
BK
Michael Stern
waves got to be over 1 -2 feet it was hell. Traded it in before the end of
the first season for a "boat", instead of a big PWC.
Larry KN4IM
wrote:
>Is there anybody who have experience with this boat? How is it in rough
>weather, speed with 120 HP jet etc? I am seriously considering getting one
>(used).
>
>Any opininons highly appreciated.
>
>Inge Almaas
>
>
You'll be disappointed with the FORCE 120 Sport Jet. It's a simple
FORCE powerhead, not a Mercury. A MUCH better powerplant, one I have
over 390 hours of troublefree operation running, is the 175hp Mercury
V-6 with electronic ignition, automatic electronic enrichment for
one-touch starting and very smooth running hot or cold. The pump in
the 175 is also much more advanced than the 90 or 120. The 175 pump
has a "swirl-type" stainless impeller running in a stainless wear
ring, more like an advanced jetski than a washing machine drain pump.
It's much more efficient in operation with much better performance.
My F16XR2 Sea Rayder operates 95% of the time in the Atlantic Ocean
and the bays and tributaries of Atlantic salt water. It has 3 BIG
zincs to protect it and shows no sign of any corrosion inside or out
from sitting each weekend in hot seawater as we lounge around the
beaches in 35C sunshine.
Get the 175hp V-6....MUCH improved over the earlier 90 and 120 Force
engined Sport Jets.....
Larry, aboard "ToyBota" in Charleston, SC, USA
Larry KN4IM
ONE 175 Sport Jet toasted, and that was from a jammed up oil pump!
Larry....of course, we COULD take more, at length, about my crappy
Yamaha Gross Pig 1200 Waverunner....(c;
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:22:48 -0500, olove <ol...@directlink.net>
wrote:
Larry KN4IM
That would mean that 12 out of every 18 Mercury 175hp outboard motors
were trash, too! Just doesn't add up. The 2.5L Merc outboard
powerhead is one of the best ones they ever made!
larry....
MuryMann
engines. I'll ask and detail it for you this weekend.
BK
olove
Greg
the old style CRAPPY impeller (does look, as Larry has said, like something out
of a washing machine) design. The new 120s (availible only in 14ft boats) have FINALLY
gotten the XR-2 style hi-po (more like PWCs) 3 blade screw type impellers- with
(surprise, surprise!) a huge performance increase (see Merc the web site). Basically
in a 14' boat somewhere near 30% better 0-30mph acceleration and a 2-3mph increased
topend. Not bad for the 120 and for a redesign which essentially costs no more to
manufacture, just different. Solas is the only mfr of impellers I've found who
will take my assembly and make it like a performance PWC with a decent, hi tech
impeller design and a close fitting wear ring (reducing the huge waste mine has
with it's loose fit from impeller to pump housing). THE mode of failure you hear
of over and over on the Force 120 is the ignition stator cooks every couple years.
Mine was replaced by the prev owner. At a whopping 65hrs (yep, total!) use I
have not had a mech failure. I bought it with 24hrs (in 3 yrs) on it. I did
disassemble the pump stator (not to be confused w/ign stator) to change its
fluid- a maintenance item, not a failure- and I did that early (interval is 100
hrs) just to check things out down there as I did not trust what all was done
on it prior to my buying.
The interiors, as Larry will also attest, are totally lame vinyl and WILL fail
on you in short order. Poor quality material and poorer drainage speed the
vinyl's demise... Fortunately there is not much vinyl in there. I wish I could
scrap that cutsey bolstered 3 place rear seat and put in a simple bench with a
bit of storage (accessible from the cockpit) and a minimal cushion design.
On ride. Its a SMALL boat, anybody complaining about ride has got to realize its
at best 16' and I believe that includes transom platform and the extra little
nozzle cover/step. The hulls actually quite a bit shorter than that ! It rides quite
well for its size and hull design (a shallow vee transitioning to flat at the
transom...) It has very little freeboard, a low bow, and no windshield. You WILL
get wet, this applies to any like boat not only the 'Rayder. Got to remember when
comparing and criticising to compare like boats, not, "well its a LOT rougher
and wetter than my 25' Ranger CC..." Ah, ya and at 1200 lbs about 1/5 the boat,
too !
The pump will clog with weeds. It will suck a ski rope in. Itll even suck a human,
clothing, hair, etc up tight if you care to try (no, we haven't ). I love the prop-less
design for kid water play and goofing off. Not to mention shallow water running and skinny
water fishing. It will float in less than a foot of water. I know, I have pushed it
off shallow flats enough times (ah, fishing, not running aground!).
The older 120 if equipped with the NEW XR-2 style of pump, like the 175 has, is
probably a decent setup for average use. The 175 as everybody has said, seems to be
a real winner with more than enough power.
Greg
Larry KN4IM
wrote:
>It wasn't the 175, it was the 120...
>
Oh, sorry, that was the FORCE, not the Mercury....cheap, very cheap.
Larry KN4IM
>
>The interiors, as Larry will also attest, are totally lame vinyl and WILL fail
>on you in short order. Poor quality material and poorer drainage speed the
>vinyl's demise... Fortunately there is not much vinyl in there. I wish I could
>scrap that cutsey bolstered 3 place rear seat and put in a simple bench with a
>bit of storage (accessible from the cockpit) and a minimal cushion design.
"Cheap" is being nice.....Sea Ray sent me a whole new set of seats,
etc. I never installed them, but have put them "up" so I can replace
the mildewed seats with new ones at selling time. The new owner will
have a totally new set of seats, carpet, side panel, etc. on his new
boat.
>
>On ride. Its a SMALL boat, anybody complaining about ride has got to realize its
>at best 16' and I believe that includes transom platform and the extra little
>nozzle cover/step. The hulls actually quite a bit shorter than that ! It rides quite
>well for its size and hull design (a shallow vee transitioning to flat at the
>transom...) It has very little freeboard, a low bow, and no windshield. You WILL
>get wet, this applies to any like boat not only the 'Rayder. Got to remember when
>comparing and criticising to compare like boats, not, "well its a LOT rougher
>and wetter than my 25' Ranger CC..." Ah, ya and at 1200 lbs about 1/5 the boat,
>too !
Ah....now for a little magic....BALLAST!
Wanna have some fun at the beach? Go down to a local hardware store
and buy 20 white plastic sandbags (no sand, that's what the beach is
for!) Take the family to the beach in the Rayder. Go up where the
beach sand is blown clean by the wind and fill them. Mine weigh about
22# each with Charleston Beach Sand in them. I fooled around a lot
with ballast weights using plastic coated concrete barbell weights.
For my F16XR2, the optimum ballast is about 80# of sandbags stuffed
way up as far as you can stuff it into the point of the bow. I used a
piece of wood, braced against the threaded rod of the lifting eye, to
hold them in place....hard against the point of the bow. 80# adds
CONSIDERABLE MASS to the very light bow on this boat! About 80% of
the bouncing up and down is replaced by a much more subdued lifting
and dropping, like a much heavier boat. You'll be AMAZED at how MUCH
FASTER it planes!! That 80# of sand as far forward of the planing
fulcrum just plops the bow right up on plane in about 1 second!
Having more MASS is certainly an advantage in so short a hull.....
My other "ballast" is 160# of sandbags located between the port side
of the cockpit liner and the port hull, above the waterline. I took
out the forward bulkhead of the storage compartment on the port side
where the gas fill/vent lines are in the hull. I took out the port
side speaker to give me access to the void in there. The first
ballast bag is located right behind the port side speaker laying up
against the hull as high as I can get it. The other sandbags lay aft,
parallel with this one with their ends wedged against the cockpit
liner, in a neat line back into the storage compartment to the port
side of the oil tank and battery. I added a piece of wood shelving to
hold them up into the gunwale back there. Here's what this port side
ballast does.....
My Rayder ALWAYS had a hard port turn if you were on plane and PULLED
OFF THE POWER! I usually ride alone or with one passenger. If I had
a passenger on the port side, or rode alone in the center seat, the
port uncontrolled turn disappeared! So, wanting to sit in the
driver's seat, I started fooling around with ballast on the port hull.
My experimentation showed 160# was ideal for my 235# carcass to
balance up the hull. She now tracks as straight as an arrow coming
off plane without having to leave thrust on the nozzle and turn hard
to starboard to compensate....
The other benefit is my beautiful bikini-clad passenger, in order to
keep the boat in trim, of course, not for any other purpose, may now
sit in the CENTER seat, next to the captain, not way over on the port
side. She may serve the captain much better from this position on our
way to the beach....(c; Ballast made it possible.....
>
>The pump will clog with weeds. It will suck a ski rope in. Itll even suck a human,
>clothing, hair, etc up tight if you care to try (no, we haven't ). I love the prop-less
>design for kid water play and goofing off. Not to mention shallow water running and skinny
>water fishing. It will float in less than a foot of water. I know, I have pushed it
>off shallow flats enough times (ah, fishing, not running aground!).
I NEVER ride in SHALLOW water under 2 feet deep....just like the book
says! My ski rope has floats on it to keep it ON TOP, not under, my
pump. Also be VERY careful those kids aren't anywhere near that
nozzle with the engine running. It IS still very dangerous with
swimmers in the water.....
Don'tcha just LOVE to watch their outboards kick up hitting the sand
as you glide effortlessly over most sandbars without touching?
>
>The older 120 if equipped with the NEW XR-2 style of pump, like the 175 has, is
>probably a decent setup for average use. The 175 as everybody has said, seems to be
>a real winner with more than enough power.
>
>Greg
>
I didn't know the 120 pumps had been changed to the XR-2 style.
That's great news. IF they can keep the 120 running smoothly, that
wouldn't be a bad setup.....
I was toying with the idea of changing my 175 powerhead for the 270hp
power head 2.5L V-6. The difference is the hotter engine turns 7200
RPM, not 5500, which would bring the pump up to around 6000 RPM from
4000. One of my servicers races hydroplane outboards and always
mentions to me that he can just swap powerheads and it'll fit right
on. I was tempted, until I realized I can't run the Rayder at WOT
very often with the 175 power head on it. It's just TOO FAST as it is
in most conditions.....
It WOULD be fun to play in a 270hp Sport Jet boat for a while,
though......Maybe if I wear this one out....say in 2010...(c;
Larry
H Krause
Good lord, Larry, all you are doing is verifying that what you have is a
very poorly designed boat.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
In Heaven, all the chairs are recliners.
RBStern
>very poorly designed boat.
>
>
While Sea Ray gets a big thumbs down for putting out junk, I think Larry
deserves applause for taking the time, figuring the issues out, and getting the
boat to work right. I don't always like his arguments, but I admire his
persistence in this case.
Rich Stern
MuryMann
There were 10 of the 12 that were 1996 120hp "force" enginers. Of these 10:
4 fuel system problems, 3 cracked heads and 3 ignition system problems.
That's all the detail bro gave me.
BK
Karl Denninger
Cracked heads are usually temperature related (some idiot starting and
running boat out of the water, operating with weeds blocking the water
intake, etc).
--
--
Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Web: childrens-justice.org
Tired of the broken divorce system in the United States and what it's doing
to our kids? SIGN the online petition for equal parental - and children's -
rights at the above URL. Make a difference in a kid's life today.
Real-time chat now available from the above web page
Larry KN4IM
Thank you, Rich.
I'm going to figure out why one of the 5 AC units is only getting
83VAC and why the ground wire burned out on another one on the
Hatteras 56 this afternoon....(c;
I love fixing a wierd problem. Always have.
Larry
H Krause
Oh, I am in admiration of Larry's ability to tinker, but, really, that boat
seems to have some serious problems.
--
Harry Krause
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Intel - still number 0.999873464508 !
Larry KN4IM
Fixed! 18 years of corrosion in the forgotten 50A cartridge fuses
screwed in right next to the AC docklines to protect the boat from
fires caused by shorts between where the AC comes into the boat and
the various breaker panels IN the boat. First class electrical
wiring....beautifully installed, too! Wish I could afford one....(c;
We cleaned bilges under engine, replaced zincs in heat exchangers (4),
found blown fuse in 12V supply for something we think is part of Naiad
Stabilizers, fooled around running engines and looking for leaks so we
can go to sea with confidence next weekend.....(c;
No more problems than every OTHER 56' motoryacht with every available
feature/toy/comfort afforded to owners of such vessels. The Hatteras
56 IS proof America doesn't HAVE to build JUNK, if it chooses not to.
Larry
Inge Almås
knowledge and all the helpfull answers was just fantastic. Again, thank you
very much to everybody.
Based on the answers I have got here, I have decided not to buy the F-16.
I'm from Norway (you can probably figure that out from my bad written
english), and I need a boat which is reliable and usable in tough weather. I
still have to say that I really like the acceleration, power and
maneuverability of the jet boats. Here in Norway we have a boat from
Hydrolift which is called X-17 and this has caught my interest. This is a
17', with V-shape, and the 175 Hp Sport Jet motor. Speed is over 50 knots,
and I've heard it is supposed to have all the abilities in rough weather
that the F-16 doesn't have. So who knows, maybe this will be my next boat?
Regards
Inge Almås
Larry KN4IM
wrote:
>OK, Thanks to everybody who took their time to answer this topic. The detail
>knowledge and all the helpfull answers was just fantastic. Again, thank you
>very much to everybody.
>
>Based on the answers I have got here, I have decided not to buy the F-16.
>I'm from Norway (you can probably figure that out from my bad written
>english),
If you saw our Norwegian, I doubt you would be able to get past "Hi
Inge". Ugly Americans, one and most.....
My Farsi improved after the first 6 months stumbling around Iran in
the dark!
Larry....
talk2fr...@gmail.com
> Is there anybody who have experience with this boat? How is it in rough
> weather, speed with 120 HP jet etc? I am seriously considering getting one
> (used).
>
> Any opininons highly appreciated.
>
> Inge Almaas
