Woodall Shoals (worked in the hole)
1kayaker
to take out at the pool below Woodall. Let me describe our
group. We had two fairly experience paddlers that have
successfully ran section 4 many times along with Tallulah
and other serious rivers. They were father and son (son is
only 14). I am a new paddler who has been paddling for
less than 1 year. The father was paddling a 3-D, the son
in a Mr Clean and I was in a Hammer. We also had a new
person with us going down in a canoe.
When we got to Woodall, we took out on the rock on river
right as is very customary. All the kayakers were going to
run the cheat chute on far river right (by the trees). We
were going to portage the canoe. The most experienced
person in our group(the father) is also a very good canoe
paddler and he decided to go ahead and run the main line
with the canoe. I felt it was a bad idea but it had been
decided. I setup a rope on the river left rock. His son
was standing behind me. There was a man and wife sitting
on the rock watching. The new guy with us just stood on
top of the rock waiting.
The paddler got decent speed as he lined up the canoe about
30ft above the drop. He was down in the boat and apppeared
to have good control and form. The water was running 1.7
at the bridge guage. He ran the drop at the center of the
hole. The bow of the canoe cleared most of the hole but
the boat capsized to the right. He braced a couple of
times but was unable to keep the boat upright. The boat
got surfed in the hole for maybe 5sec with the bow facing
the Georgia bank. The paddler was stuck in the very center
of the hole...fighting. As soon as I had a clear throw I
yelled "rope" and threw the rope. It was a very good throw
and landed over his shoulder and the bag in front of him.
He was getting worked and never saw the rope. It washed
out of the hole and I pulled the rope back in for another
throw. His son who was standing behind me go real nervous.
I threw a horrible second throw that didn't even land in
the hole. I pulled in again and threw it two more times.
The swimmer never saw the rope. He kept trying to get to
one side of the hole to cheat out of it but it wasn't going
well. I was scared. The biggest part of his body that
ever came out of the water was his face and hands. He was
getting worked and obviously weaker. He then got washed
out of the hole on the river right side. He was completely
exhuasted. His son got in his kayak and ran the cheat side
and went to assist him.
We have talked about this and know things could have ended
up much worse.
My question for you is...What else could we have done to
assist him? I know that we could have dragged the rope
across the river from upstream with one person on each end
and try to pull him out. But I don't know that we would of
had much more time. He says he kept hitting a rock with
his hands and trying to push up on the river left side of
the hole. Should we have thrown in our PFD's as extra
flotation for him to possibly grab? He even mentioned that
maybe we could have send down a kayak..."just something for
me to grab onto with a little flotation" I asked what if
it hit him in the head. He replied that the other option
was that he might die anyways so why not try something.
I know some of you are probably trying to figure out why
did he run it. Now that is besides the point. I'm trying
to learn what it is we can do to help someone in this
situation. I know some will criticize and not provide
anything constructive but many of you are true and know
what it is I'm looking for. Please give me your advice. I
had watched the videos on rescue but quickly came to
realize that the preach prevention (which would of kept
this from happenning) but since it did happen what could we
have done to correct it?
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
CKelly1022
1K, I think you did about the right stuff once the senario began to unfold.
You put yourdelf in position to help with the rope. Your first throw was good.
These are both positive things things.
One other thing thing you might have added is a rescue person/boat
downstream on the right prior to his attempt.
Your account illustrates to me a basic truth; that once we set a train of
actions in motion in this sport it is often hard to have much impact later. I
guess it is like losing your bow on a surf; once the current has it corrections
are much more difficult.
Your account als serves the positive purpose of remionding people that
this is really a bad hole. The last time there I spent a while looking at it.
The run from the right side of the hole is more dangerous than it looks because
there are several little factors that tend to force you toward the hole. If
nothing goes wrong life is good, but......well, your story illustrated the
"what if''.
As to the canoeist himself, I am not critical of him as distinct from his
judgement because I too have made poor decisions on this river but maybe he
might consider my rule of luck. If I look at the rapid and understand it and
think I can run it without luck being a factor then I am willing to go. We can
always have "bad luck", it is part of the risk equation. If I think I need
"good luck" I ought to walk. I ought to be able to run the drop and handle the
challenges based on my own skills, not luck. The facts you present suggest to
me that your guy did not have a roll. Hence, once he flipped so near such a
problem he was hole bait. He was not prepared to handle the challenges of that
drop. I do not say for sure that a roll would have saved him. Nor is a roll
any sure indicator of ability but it is both a good tool and a crude
measurement of the person's skill level. I will say that a person with no roll
probably should not be running Woodall @ 1.7. Believe me whan I say I
understand. Everyone here does. Almost all of us have made bad decisions. It
is a matter of learning from them and using thatexperience. I will be
interested in what others think esp about what you could have done differently
once he decided to run.
Have a good summer, Chris Kelly
jeff jones
there not more interesting things downstream that you dont have to loose
your life over??/
Oci-One Kanubi
choose that option I would make two suggestions: (1) 'biner yer throw
rope to a grab loop first, so that if he manages to grab the boat to get
his head out of the water you will also be able to do something about
getting him out of the hole, and (2) launch the boat in such a way that
it will run the ledge sideways; if it runs bow- or stern-first it is
likely to start throwing ends, which could be pretty hard on the body
sharing the hole with it, and if it enders out of the whole you are back
where you started, only one tool (the boat) poorer.
Finally, if you have a properly outfitted whtewater canoe* handy, send
it instead of a kayak. Yuh, it'll prolly land on the guy harder than a
kayak would, but with big air-bags on both ends it will float higher
than a kayak and won't start with the rodeo tricks, and it has many more
places where its hole-buddy can grab hold than a kayak does.
-Richard
* Check out Mike Yee's system of lashing airbags into the canoe. He
builds a net (which he calls a "cage") out of parachute cord by running
two lengths of cord from the end of the boat to the "cockpit", dividing
the boat crosswise into thirds, in addition to a keeper strap. He knots
all his cross lashings to these lengthwise lines, making a big net with
a 5" or 6" grid. Unless they become punctured, the bags WON'T wash out
of the boat.
========================================================================
Richard Hopley, #39, OC-1; concise and to the point, as usual.
Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
petterd
I think you did pretty good by being in a position to get a
swimmer a rope, and getting it to them. I think it's usually
important to try and make sure the swimmer knows the rope is
coming, but if the swimmer is getting trashed by a hole, well, @
$#@in' A ...
To other readers of this interesting thread:
I was talking about this kind of situation with a friend
recently and we got to thinkin (And this is a sort-of serious
idea, not a dave p wisecrack). Would it make any sense at all
to make some kind of supplementary emergency inflatable
floatation (essentially a little airbag) that was compact and
attached to a PFD? Technically it's feasible -- aircraft
lifevests work like that, and I read recently that there is an
'airbag vest' for motorcyclers that deploys when they fly off
their bikes. Whaddaya think? Are there enough situations where
people need more flotation that it would merit yet another
safety device?... dave p
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Peik
1kayaker <1kay...@altavista.com>
wrote:1742d8f6...@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com...
snip>>>>>>>>>
The biggest part of his body that
> ever came out of the water was his face and hands. He was
> getting worked and obviously weaker. He then got washed
> out of the hole on the river right side. He was completely
> exhuasted.
snip>>>>>>>>>>>>
> My question for you is...What else could we have done to
> assist him?
I've been in a hole, know how it feels, we had a thread or two
about these things in this ng. a year or two ago, and you may
pick up some related stuff through deja.com etc.
I've read the books, taken safety courses, and I've swum a lot in
rivers and heavy surf without getting scared.
But getting worked really bad makes you forget what you
learned and just fight for some air to breathe. I too got washed
out after I got totally exhausted (unconscious?), and it seems
that this tends to happen once you stop fighting (I refused the
offer of a hand to pull me upright when I reached a shallow
eddy after a short and feeble "swim", needing a couple of minutes
lying flat out and just breathing).
I've seen beginners get stuck in holes that were non-threatening to
me because they kept struggling to stay at the surface in the stopper
slot which is the worst place to be if you want to get out, and I guess
that's just what I did myself when I got desperate for air after some
rounds of recirculation. It's easy to criticize these actions from the
comfort of an arm-chair; I hope I'll be able to make good use
of the experience if I'll ever need it again, but I'm not sure I will.
You did pretty well to actually get in several throws while he was
still reasonably active, though I know the intensity of the situation,
noise, limited time on the surface etc. makes it hard to notice a rope.
I believe it is essential to be EXPECTING the rope to appear,
so the timing of your shout is very important.
In my case I wanted someone to throw a rope, but knew there was
little chance of this happening before I passed out (a dominating
thought in my mind after I'd given up swimming out was trying to
stay conscious long enough to be able to actively "receive" help).
It turned out that one guy actually had gotten out of his boat and
was preparing a rescue attempt, but I washed out before he got
around to it. This shows that you have very little time when these
things happen unless you've set up a rescue beforehand.
My experience from this and a couple other situations tells me we
can never expect our buddies to help us out of trouble. We need
luck for this to happen. Taking a first aid course to learn CPR
may be the most important thing to do to change the odds.
--
Peik Borud
Norway
peik<at>online.no
comet...@hotmail.com
year, but... I think sending a kayak into Woodall hole at 1.7 would be
a bad idea. Like, very, very bad. Any of the kayaks you had with you
not only aren't going to bridge the hole, they are likely to get sucked
back in with the swimmer if he grabs onto them. I'm not criticizing
your friend's decision to run the hole; he's a canoeist as well as
kayaker and it was up to him whether to run the hole or not. I know
lots of people who run Woodall simply because they don't want to run
the sneak when it's low and rocky and they don't want to get out to
portage. I personally do not run Woodall at any level, not because I
don't think I can do it (I'm sure I can make the move, at least at 1.5
or below) but because the portage is so EASY (20 steps over a rock) and
the sneak is much more fun! For people who aren't familiar with the
rapid, it's a Class 3 move with possible Class 6 consequences. It's a
very deep, very dangerous hole to be in. I see no reason whatsoever to
run it, ever. But that's just me.
For what it's worth: your dude knew you had a rope. You were in place
before he ran the rapid. You hit him on the shoulder with it at least
once when he swam. Sending anyone else in to possibly make more victims
is not, IMHO, a good idea in any instance. AFAICT, you did what you
should have. Maybe more experienced people than me can tell you
something else you could have done. I'm just happy to hear your friend
made it out OK. It's a VERY dangerous hole.
Comet
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ocoee...@my-deja.com
First, getting out of a big hole. Floatation can be a bad thing in
these situations. The water on the surface is coming back into the
hole. By providing flotation or by pushing up on the rocks(as the
paddler said he did) will only extend your stay in the hole. The way
to get out is to go down. Before people jump all over me, I know
Woodall is different. It is supposedly undercut. Going deep in the
hole could result in your getting trapped under rock behind the hole.
Then you would be really hosed.
Next. Dropping a kayak or other hard object from upstream is a bad
idea. You are just asking to knock the person out. The only advange
would be the person would be unconcious when they start to drown.
That's not how I try to help my buddies.
Next, the unwanted advice. How to run Woodall. Running the center of
the hole at 1.7 is dumb - plain and simple. When a person commits to
doing this on purpose he/she is making a mistake and putting their
friends in an unfair situation. Also, running the drop straight on
isn't the best way to do it. The traditional(read safest) way to run
the drop is to catch the river center eddy and then peel out/ferry
towards the left bank. At 1.7 you should aim for just left of the
rooster tail about 4 feet off the left bank. This marks a break in the
hole. Going too far left can result in hitting rock and losing your
momentum and ending in the hole. Going too far right can have the
results you described.
If you do end up in the hole at that level(and I have been there at 1.8
on the old gauge) the best way to get out is to ender out. It won't be
easy, and once you are locked into a sidesurf you are going to have to
work real hard to get to an edge( I got out on the right side) and
throw and end.
Bottom line here is don't end up swimming in Woodall at that level.
There is no good rescue, and it is very dangerous. If you aren't sure
you can run it and stay in your boat, then don't.
Playboatn
>not only aren't going to bridge the hole, they are likely to get sucked
>back in with the swimmer if he grabs onto them.
I wouldn't consider sending a kayak in unless that person was on belay (rope
attached) so that he/she could be pulled out. Otherwise you'll likely to end up
with 2 persons recirculating along with a kayak.
Knox W.
tgeor...@my-deja.com
great length. to much chance in getting tangled if i flip. i believe
they were tallking about boat only.
tarp
Playboatn
>great length. to much chance in getting tangled if i flip.
I wouldn't run a rapid with a rope attached either. I'm talking about at the
bottom of the drop as close as possible and the belayer would slowly feed out
the rope as the rescuer approached the boil line where the victim could
possibly reach the bow grab loop. Obviously this should not be your first
choice of method of rescue; just another alternative method.
Knox W.
Paddleman
play...@aol.com (Playboatn) wrote:
If one were so inclined, it would be relatively easy to paddle upstream
into Woodall with a rope attached to the boat. The hole will take care
of the work.
That is a pretty desperate measure, though. It's not likely to ever be
a possibility in real life. The time it takes to get ready & execute
is probably longer than the victim has to live. One would have to move
pretty fast.
--
For the Best in Paddling Videos:
http://www.whitewatervideo.com
Paddleman
ocoee...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Next, the unwanted advice. How to run Woodall. Running the center of
> the hole at 1.7 is dumb - plain and simple. When a person commits to
> doing this on purpose he/she is making a mistake and putting their
> friends in an unfair situation. Also, running the drop straight on
> isn't the best way to do it. The traditional(read safest) way to run
> the drop is to catch the river center eddy and then peel out/ferry
> towards the left bank. At 1.7 you should aim for just left of the
> rooster tail about 4 feet off the left bank. This marks a break in
the
> hole. Going too far left can result in hitting rock and losing your
> momentum and ending in the hole. Going too far right can have the
> results you described.
>
Having run Woodall in many ways in an open canoe, I'm afraid I must
disagree with some of this heartfelt, although butt boat oriented
advice.
Running Woodall down the middle at 1.7 is certainly not the best or
most likely to succeed line, but it can be done in an open canoe with a
good chance of success. I've done it more than a few times. The
length and floatation of the bigger boat provide a big advantage over
the line a kayak will take. Lot's of speed is required and a very
straight line. As long as the bow doesn't submerge & no correcting
brace occurs, the momentum will likely carry the boat through. Of
course, the key is that "likely" isn't 100%. But, so far, I've come
through clean every time I've run that line.
Better canoe lines more likely to succeed in order of least to most
successful are:
1. The hero route from middle eddy over the top towards river left. If
you go too high, the small hole to the left of the big one stops the
bow of the boat & the whole boat ends up spinning into the hole.
2. Starting well above the rapid on river right, gain lots of momentum
headed towards the rooster tail to the left of the hole. Of course you
can't see the rooster tail from your starting point! I've run this
line up to 2.2 feet.
3. Go for the center eddy, but instead of catching it, run the slope
on the right side of the main hole. Pay attention!
4. Above 1.6, many of us run the Georgia slide on the far right of the
river. Below that, it is boat abuse. Above 3 feet, it starts to form
up into a pretty good hole too.
With any of the first 3 lines, it's prudent to have a rope on the
left. You can set one in the center also. Woodall is a classic keeper
with both a vertical boil back into it as well as a horizontal
whirlpool effect with a very big eddy fence on the left.
And I merely present this to illustrate the difference in the lines
that a canoe can take vs. a kayak......... (because we're better).
Paddleman
1kayaker <1kay...@altavista.com> wrote:
> I know some of you are probably trying to figure out why
> did he run it. Now that is besides the point. I'm trying
> to learn what it is we can do to help someone in this
> situation. I know some will criticize and not provide
> anything constructive but many of you are true and know
> what it is I'm looking for. Please give me your advice. I
> had watched the videos on rescue but quickly came to
> realize that the preach prevention (which would of kept
> this from happenning) but since it did happen what could we
> have done to correct it?
>
If you don't think someone should do something on the river, you should
say so.
If that doesn't work, then set the best safety you can. At 1.7,
Woodall has a pretty strong hole. But, it's not hard to hit the center
eddy. From there, you can set a second rope (River Left is where the
first belongs).
It's important for the swimmer to hold on to the boat. My worst ass
whippings have occurred when my boat has abandoned me and left me in a
hole. You see, every hole has a hunger that must be satisfied. You
can be the hole food yourself, or you can let the hole eat the boat. I
know which I prefer.
Now, a guy stuck in a hole like that has one prime concern on his mind,
and that is getting another good breath of air. So, he wants to float
well. Of course, floating well is what keeps him in the hole. If you
threw him a life preserver, he'd just float farther up in the hole and
get pummelled by the water coming down the fall.
I don't think an empty kayak would be a good thing to have in the hole
with you. They're slick and hard to hold onto. No gunnels or airbag
strings like a canoe. And they tumble in a hole which could beat a guy
to a pulp.
Now, the idea of clipping a rope to a boat and paddling it upstream
into the hole has some merit. But, who's going to volunteer? The goal
would be to paddle into the hole, toss the paddle, then grab the victim
and get pulled out by the rope. Tough to execute. Without the paddle,
it'll be hard to stay upright to see the swimmer, and, once your upside
down, how long should the rope man wait to pull you out? If he waits
too long, there'll be a second swimmer in the hole.
There's a bunch of random thoughts for you to mull on. Perhaps the
best method would involve trained rescue trout..... hmmmmm.
Socemdog
Method #2. You just slide over the ledge on the left and drop into the river
left eddy at the bottom. It's a class three move. If you are not 100% sure
that you can make the move cleanly (especially without flipping) then run the
Georgia sneak or portage. If you screw up it's a class six rapid, not a five
+, even if you make it out alive. If you screw up and make it out, you're just
fortunate that it wasn't your time to die.
Of course, being 100% sure *doesn't* mean you don't set safety. It's just
proper River Humility to set safety. It also doesn't mean that you're not
scared spitless. If you're not scared running Woodall, you need to find
another sport.
By the BTW, I don't think the ledge is undercut, but I don't know of anyone who
has been willing to seriously investigate it.
Mr. Robin D. Sayler
Soce...@aol.com
RSa...@trailworks.com
www.trailworks.com
BarnettW3
close enough but it seems we're missin a basic FIRST improvement to your
rescue system.... have 2 or more ropes.
Never thrown together but while the retrieve cycle is occurring the backups are
there for the swimmer if he/she pops up in the meantime.
as to "how best to run it" , that's paddleman's territory.
BW
(back from 5 happy days on the Middle Fork of the Sal-moan.... with a big
smile).
ocoee...@my-deja.com
boaters I paddle with use much smaller craft than you do, and they
almost always opt for a kayak(small boat) line. Thus deluding me into
thinking I know something about that side of the sport. However, I've
seen your videos and even you shooting them, and am always leery of
following your suggestions on a rapid. I don't want to be no stunt
boater of yours ;) I suspect you wouldn't toy with a person about
Woodall like that though. So if you say it's OK in an open boat, then I
wont argue.
I didn't discuss the line to the right of the hole from the center eddy
because I consider that a sneak at 1.7.
SYOTR,
Kevin
Darth Rival
The original poster mentioned sending in a KAYAK, not a KAYAKER. Just
the boat, without a paddler. In other words, comet, the whole POINT is
for the boat to be sucked into the hole with the swimmer, to give the
victim a buoyant object to hang onto, so he can stay alive until someone
figgers out a way to get him out of the hole.
-Darth
comet...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I may be speaking out of line here, since I've only been paddling a
> year, but... I think sending a kayak into Woodall hole at 1.7 would be
> a bad idea. Like, very, very bad. Any of the kayaks you had with you
> not only aren't going to bridge the hole, they are likely to get
sucked
> back in with the swimmer if he grabs onto them.
--
==========================
May the Farce be with you!
==========================
comet...@hotmail.com
Darth Rival <the_do...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Whoa, cometshotz, playboatin, and tgeorge, yer all missing the point.
> The original poster mentioned sending in a KAYAK, not a KAYAKER. Just
> the boat, without a paddler. In other words, comet, the whole POINT
is
> for the boat to be sucked into the hole with the swimmer, to give the
> victim a buoyant object to hang onto, so he can stay alive until
someone
> figgers out a way to get him out of the hole.
Ah, light goes on in head. :) I thought he meant another boater. Still,
my first thought was the same one Paddleman had below: an empty kayak
will fill with water and beat the swimmer's brains out, even if it had
float bags in it, or at best it would be slick and hard to hold onto.
If you grab one loop on an end, it would still be hard to use for
flotation. I think the best suggestion so far was to have 2 ropes set
up; while one is pulling in after a missed throw, the other goes out.
Can't remember who said so below. The bad thing about Woodall is that
you can't swim to the bottom to get out. You HAVE to come out of it on
top and that's hard to do.
Grasshopper
aka Comet
Courtney Nipper
involved in the rescue) and tie or clip the vest to the throw rope. Throw
the vest in the hole where the swimmer is. Now the swimmer has something
floatable and big to hold onto and from there pull the swimmer out of the
hole.
Courtney
comet...@hotmail.com
Darth Rival
> Ah, light goes on in head. :) I thought he meant another boater.Still,
> my first thought was the same one Paddleman had below: an empty kayak
> will fill with water and beat the swimmer's brains out, even if it had
> float bags in it, or at best it would be slick and hard to hold onto.
> If you grab one loop on an end, it would still be hard to use for
> flotation.
Hmmm, could that be why my evil twin, Oci-One Kanubi, suggested sending
a canoe instead of a kayak, if a canoe were available (a thought Kanubi
expressed way early in this thread)?
> I think the best suggestion so far was to have 2 ropes set
> up; while one is pulling in after a missed throw, the other goes out.
> Can't remember who said so below. The bad thing about Woodall is that
> you can't swim to the bottom to get out. You HAVE to come out of it on
> top and that's hard to do.
Hmmm, can Courtney's suggestion of sending in a PFD 'binered to a
throw-rope be the same concept as Kanubi's suggestion that if you DO
send a boat in after him, you should first 'biner a rope to it so you
can pull him/it out (a suggestion Kanubi made way early in this thread)?
-Darth
==========================
May the Farce be with you!
==========================
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paddleman
ocoee...@my-deja.com wrote:
> You're right Paddleman. I was giving butt boat advice. The open
> boaters I paddle with use much smaller craft than you do, and they
> almost always opt for a kayak(small boat) line. Thus deluding me into
> thinking I know something about that side of the sport. However, I've
> seen your videos and even you shooting them, and am always leery of
> following your suggestions on a rapid. I don't want to be no stunt
> boater of yours ;) I suspect you wouldn't toy with a person about
> Woodall like that though. So if you say it's OK in an open boat, then
I
> wont argue.
I'm quite cautious around Woodall with the advice I give. I prefer to
have a rope there when I run it. I've needed it once. I've seen (and
taped) a few people that needed a rope, too.
>
> I didn't discuss the line to the right of the hole from the center
eddy
> because I consider that a sneak at 1.7.
>
I think it is also, but I was just describing lines. There's another
sneak at 2 feet or so. You can run well left of the hole over shallow
rock.
And there's another line at 3.5 feet or so down the creek run on the
far river left.
Sooner or later, we're all stunt boaters.
--
For the Best in Paddling Videos:
http://www.whitewatervideo.com
CKelly1022
another???????? Why if THAT little party gets any larger it will need its own
therapy group.
Steve Garrotto
"It is a really easy rapid, just make sure you don't swim here!"
This translates for me into: I am not going to do it! If there is a
chance that a swim will not be good, then I can not garantee that I
will not swim, ever! So I do not like the above line and will only do
runs where I feel that I can control my destiny. That is why I love
these new smaller play boats. It makes the smaller white water a lot
more fun and it stalls my need to get on bigger and badder rivers.
SLG
ocoee...@my-deja.com wrote:
>OK I'll chime in with a few bits of advice.
>
>First, getting out of a big hole. Floatation can be a bad thing in
>these situations. The water on the surface is coming back into the
>hole. By providing flotation or by pushing up on the rocks(as the
>paddler said he did) will only extend your stay in the hole. The way
>to get out is to go down. Before people jump all over me, I know
>Woodall is different. It is supposedly undercut. Going deep in the
>hole could result in your getting trapped under rock behind the hole.
>Then you would be really hosed.
>
>Next. Dropping a kayak or other hard object from upstream is a bad
>idea. You are just asking to knock the person out. The only advange
>would be the person would be unconcious when they start to drown.
>That's not how I try to help my buddies.
>
>
>Next, the unwanted advice. How to run Woodall. Running the center of
>the hole at 1.7 is dumb - plain and simple. When a person commits to
>doing this on purpose he/she is making a mistake and putting their
>friends in an unfair situation. Also, running the drop straight on
>isn't the best way to do it. The traditional(read safest) way to run
>the drop is to catch the river center eddy and then peel out/ferry
>towards the left bank. At 1.7 you should aim for just left of the
>rooster tail about 4 feet off the left bank. This marks a break in the
>hole. Going too far left can result in hitting rock and losing your
>momentum and ending in the hole. Going too far right can have the
>results you described.
>
>If you do end up in the hole at that level(and I have been there at 1.8
>on the old gauge) the best way to get out is to ender out. It won't be
>easy, and once you are locked into a sidesurf you are going to have to
>work real hard to get to an edge( I got out on the right side) and
>throw and end.
>
>
>Bottom line here is don't end up swimming in Woodall at that level.
>There is no good rescue, and it is very dangerous. If you aren't sure
>you can run it and stay in your boat, then don't.
>
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
(All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new
and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are
due to too many English classes/teachers)
comet...@my-deja.com
> Hmmm, could that be why my evil twin, Oci-One Kanubi, suggested
sending
> a canoe instead of a kayak, if a canoe were available (a thought
Kanubi
> expressed way early in this thread)?
>
> Hmmm, can Courtney's suggestion of sending in a PFD 'binered to a
> throw-rope be the same concept as Kanubi's suggestion that if you DO
> send a boat in after him, you should first 'biner a rope to it so you
> can pull him/it out (a suggestion Kanubi made way early in this
thread)?
>
> -Darth
Sure, I don't see anything wrong with that except that a swamped boat,
whether canoe or kayak, is going to be very heavy and a lot harder to
pull out than a PFD. Whatever you send in only needs to be big enough
for the person to grab easily. In an emergency, though, use whatever's
fastest and handiest, boat, PFD, whatever.
> ==========================
> May the Farce be with you!
> ==========================
Somehow, it always seems to be with me... ;)
Comet
1kayaker
helpful. To revist the original scenario, the swimmer was
in the hole at woodall at 1.7 .
#1 We all are pretty sure the general consensus is that
woodall is undercut.
#2 The swimmer tried pushing off a rock to get out but this
was unsucessful. He said he also tried to swim out the
bottom but just couldn't do it.
#3 I'd like more info on the trained trout idea.
#4 the PFD's and/or boat on a rope seem to have the most
promise for rescue, from the swimmer point-of-view.
Thanks for the input. I'd like to keep this going to get
something useful to myself, my group, and others that may
be reading this thread.
skoboten
1kayaker
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Maria Jacobson
there both in a kayak and innertube at low water (<1.4 and <1.0,
respectively). I think that people collide with a rock that is about waist
deep (at 1.0) that is about 6 ft from the hole and due to the turbulence
feel they are trapped by an undercut. This would be the rock described in
the original account. The jet on the left side of the hole goes around this
rock and is the best bet for getting out of the hole if you are still in
your boat. Even ei you cannot ender out you can go into the jet and flip
then roll as you sweep around back into the hole and paddle across the flat
recirculation of the river right side. Of course all of these thing set
exponentially harder as the level rises and 1.7 requires both skill and an
element of luck.
Darth Rival
> [snip]
> skoboten
Skoboten? David, is that you?
-Darth
==========================
May the Farce be with you!
==========================
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.