Dagger Rival vs. Mohawk Probe?
Dale Herrick
Thoughs, expereince and opinions on these two canoe's are
welcomed.
Looking to buy and would like to hear from those who have paddled
these canoes!
Thank you in advance.
Dale
Cathee Gallant
I paddled a Rival while determining what canoe to buy, and did not like it
at all. My friend named it the Purple People Eater because every one but I
swam when paddling it. Finely the same friend let me borrow his brand new
Probe 12 instead to the Rival on the Nantahala, I LOVED it. My husband
ordered me one the next day. I'd take the Probe over the Rival any day!
That's my .02 worth,
Cathee
Chris Sherrod
I paddled a Rival made with R84 and wood gunnels for about two seasons
before making the switch to C1. It was light, highly maneuverable, boofed
well, rolled like a dream, surfed (front and side) great, had good primary
and loads of secondary stability, and occasionally I could get it to ender.
Without boring everyone with too much more ramblin, I liked the boat a lot,
but the vote is still out on the trade off between R84 and standard ABS in
terms of the weight vs durability.
Chris
Parham Momtahan
Chris Sherrod wrote in message <6j4j43$h...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>>Thoughs, expereince and opinions on these two canoe's are
>>welcomed.
I paddled a Rival for a couple of seasons and really liked it. It's fast to
accelerate, easy to roll, easy to carry and very maneuverable. I found it
plenty stable for me. Before I got the Rival, I tried a Probe. I found it to
be much less responsive, a little harder to roll, and a bit more stable than
the Rival. I agree that the RLight may not be quite as durable as ABS, but
it is, well, light. I now paddle a Dagger Ocoee and I've grown to like it a
lot. But I would not recommend starting out with an Ocoee: it's harder to
paddle, and keep upright, by a fair bit because of its hard chine (straight
sides) and flat base which, on the other hand, make it a really fun hole &
surf boat.
The obvious advice is to try before you buy and decide for yourself.
Happy OC-1-ing!
Parham.
tc mits
Were'nt you posting about outfitting a Mad River Outrage last year?
It seems similar to a Rival/Probe. It's a 12' L, 25" W small boat.
What was the story on that boat? :) The local store, HTO, had a
blow out sale on a few Outrages a month or two ago; $499 with no
outfitting.
sam heinrich erols.com/carboburnr
On Sun, 10 May 1998 10:12:17 -0400, Dale Herrick
<10453...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Thoughs, expereince and opinions on these two canoe's are
>welcomed.
>
CKelly1022
I agree w/ Mr. Parham's observations above. The Rival is, IMHO, a far
superior canoe. It is faster. It rolls easier. It is lighter. It is a
wonderful front surfing boat. I disagree that it side surfs as well as as some
of the play boats, for instance, the Ocoee. I think that this may be
attributable to the asemetrical hull which may make it better for wave surfing
but not as good for hole surfing. I admit freely that I am getting out of my
depth here and do not really understand all the effects of hull design. The
sharper chines of the Ocoee clearly contribute to its agility in holes.
For me the jury is not out on R-84 (or R-lits) versus Royalex. The winner
in the R-84, hands down. I say this having owned three royalex, two rivals and
a glass boat. It is a little less durable but I am pretty hard on boats and
the tradeoff is well worth it. Besides, it is not much less durable.
On the other side I think the Probe is a pooch. Too wide, too slow,
harder to roll. Good if you are the open boater who wants to carry 800 pounds
of drybags full of unnecessary gear, but not so good if you want to boogie.
The last time I got in one it was so unweildy I looked downstairs for a cabin.
I also am not crazy about Mohawk factory outfitting.
Do paddle both boats and chose but if you get the Rival get the wood
gunnels. Have a good time. Chris Kelly
KSTRELETZK
> Do paddle both boats and chose but if you get the Rival get the wood
>gunnels.
And I believe that Mr. Kanubi has a very nice one for sale - fully outfitted
too!
- Mothra (aka Kathy Streletzky)
"Five years have past; five summers, with the length
Of five long winters! and again I hear
These waters, rolling from their mountain-springs
With a soft inland murmur." - William Wordsworth
Oci-One Kanubi
Dale, I've only been in a Probe for 10 or 15 minutes (and hoped nobody
I know came through and saw me!) but my assessment is this: the Probe,
like the Dagger Ovation, is a very easy boat for a beginner to get
started in, but will soon begin to limit the paddler's development. The
other end of the spectrum are the Viper 11 and Ocoee, which are VERY
difficult initially, but which are capable of extreme rapids-running and
near-world-class surfing. The Rival is somewhere in between; more
difficult than the Probe initially, but with practice and instruction
the paddler will eventually be able to do a lot more with it.
If your friend is a gung-ho kinda guy who is likely to take local
instruction, go boating every weekend, then go to NOC or Zoar for a week
of intense instruction, tell him to buy the Rival; if he is going to be
a casual, occasional boater, spending a coulpa years working his way up
to comfort on the Lehigh, have him get a Probe or Ovation.
--
Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always.
OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265
Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers' Ass'n,
Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak
Ass'n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass'n, ACA, and AWA
Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address
Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon.
Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
Byron Funnell
Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
>
> Dale, I've only been in a Probe for 10 or 15 minutes (and hoped nobody
Had to read this one twice. Must have been a very large guy there or
someone pointing a gun at you! <VBG>
--
Byron Funnell - The CADMaker
e-mail: cadm...@fortwayne.infi.net
http://www.cadmaker.com
http://www.vinelife.org
Brad Snow
Kanubi is right on. I paddled a Probe early in my canoeing experience and
immediately bought one; it was a sweet DOWNRIVER boat, handled much better
than the Bluehole Sunburst II that I'd been in for two years, kept me
upright when my technique was sloppy, and I loved the price. But after
getting my own and trying some UPRIVER moves and surfs, I realized how SLOW
it was, and the initial feeling of comfort proved to be caused by a boat too
"stable" to perform well.
If you look at stability in a canoe somewhat similar to stability of a
2-wheeler bicycle, you realize that the stability bought with the help of
training wheels is dearly bought; the bicycle may not tip over, but it sure
is limited as a bicycle!
A good paddler relies on his weight placement and paddle for his stability,
and demands that the boat's hull not limit him to a predetermined selection
of angles of pitch, yaw, and lean.
I paddled the Rival a bit, and found it quite nice, though I would recommend
the Mad River Outrage or the Viper 12 over it. The Viper 12 is far more
forgiving than rumored, and is a good performer. The Viper 11 is superior,
however, and is the choice of most steep creek OC-1 boaters. It is faster
than the Ocoee, and doesn't have quite the quirks. (Ocoee paddlers flame
away!)
Brad Snow
fsb...@aurora.alaska.edu
David Bussey
Dale,
I've paddled a bit in both the Rival and Probe 12-2, just a little in the Probe
12. The Rival seems to be much more comparable to the Probe 12-2 than it is to
the Probe 12 (the Probe 12-2 and Probe 12 are quite different). In what follows
I'm comparing the Rival and Probe 12-2 (note that I'm 6'3", 210 lb, and normally
paddle a Viper 12).
Both the Rival and Probe 12-2 have nearly the same dimensions and weights. They
seem to perform nearly the same, the chief differences arise from vastly
different designs. The Rival has a big rounded bow and a somewhat edgy, shallow
vee shaped stern. The Probe has a sharper entry and a symetrical hull. The
shape of the stern helps the Rival track, the Probe has a slightly flat area in
the bottom center that serves the same purpose.
Both boats initially seem somewhat tippy (more so than my Viper 12), but have
great secondary stability. I found the Probe to be more predictable; the edgy
stern of the Rival sometimes caught me off guard (lighter paddlers don't seem to
have as much of a problem with this).
The Rival seems to be somewhat drier, the rounded bow rides up over big waves
and tends to bounce, rather than dive, going over moderate drops. On the other
hand, that rounded bow tends to make the boat feel a bit mushy in ferrys and
peel-outs; it demands closer attention to boat position, angle, and stroke
placement for these moves. The Rival and Probe both feel about the same in eddy
turns, but I think that the Probe has a slight edge in ferrys and peel-outs.
Both boats surf very well. The Rival tends to feel a little smoother side
surfing, while the Probe tends to bounce a bit. Bow surfing, I think that Probe
has a slight edge in carving across the wave; the Rival, again because of the
rounded bow, seems a little mushier here.
Overall, in my opinion, I'd say it's pretty much a toss-up between the two
boats. If possible, try both under the same, or similar conditions before you
make a decision.
BTW, don't be taken aback by some paddlers calling the regular Probe 12 a
beginner's boat. While, because it is very forgiving, it's a fine boat for
beginners, it performs much better than similarly forgiving boats (like the
Dagger Ovation or Impulse), and is the boat of choice for some very good
advanced boaters. It really depends on what you're looking for and what kind of
paddling you'll be doing.
- David Bussey
Greg Barnett
In article <6jbc08$127$1...@news.alaska.edu>, fsb...@aurora.alaska.edu
says...
>
> I paddled the Rival a bit, and found it quite nice, though I would recommend
> the Mad River Outrage or the Viper 12 over it. The Viper 12 is far more
> forgiving than rumored, and is a good performer. The Viper 11 is superior,
> however, and is the choice of most steep creek OC-1 boaters. It is faster
> than the Ocoee, and doesn't have quite the quirks. (Ocoee paddlers flame
> away!)
>
Couldn't let this one pass by... While the Rival and Viper 12 are
comparable in many respects, the Outrage is not even in the same
category. I found it to be a much "softer" design and thus slower. It's a
good boat but not what I would call high performance. The Rival vs. Viper
debate could go on forever but having paddled both extensively, I found
the Rival superior. As far as the original point of this post, I totally
agree, the Probe is a tub...
As far as the V11 being the creek boat of choice, well... Personally, I
don't know anyone who owns one and I've never even run across one on the
river. Ocoees on the other hand, are very popular in this neck of the
woods. Many of us who paddle them have more than one and there are some
interesting modifications that can tweek it's performance to suit
particular paddling styles.
MSmith1112
Anybody able to compare the performance of Dagger's older design (the Encore)
to the Rival or the Mohawk Probe/Viper. Or even better, to the Ocoee? On a
beginner to expert spectrum, with the Impulse at the bottom and the Ocoee at
the top (I presume?) where would the older Encore fall?
Byron Funnell
Hi there Monte! I can't speak for the Rival or the Ocoee other than hear
say. I have an Encore, Viper12 and a Viper11. Overall my boat choice is
the Viper11. The Encore is a MUCH drier boat overall. I used to love to
bash into waves sideways w/ it. Even plowing into waves straight on it
did not take on near the water of the Vipers. The Encore lacks the
primary stability of the Vipers, but has awesome secondary stability.
Both boats feel quite tippy compared to an Impuls or the like, but are
quite stable if you are used to them. They do handle quite a bit
differently while surfing, espeically side surfs. That would be guessed
by the hull designs, rounded and square (basically). The Encore was a
super boat in its time but for tight paddling, I find it to be big after
paddling the Viper11. 11'6" to 13'2" I think. The Viper12 is in between.
The Encore also feels a little heavier. Acceleration wise, I pick the
Viper12. Eddy turns go to the Viper11.
I think the Viper12 is faster and a little more stable than the Viper11,
espeically when full of water. It also seems to take on water just a
little quicker. The Viper11, again, does turn much easier on peel outs
and eddy turns, but loses the angle much quicker when ferrying and such.
Just my opinions.
Byron