C-to-C vs. Sweep Roll?
Chris Rouffer
I was just wondering what the difference is between a C-to-C roll and a
Sweep roll. From what I have seen, they look pretty similar. Also,
what are the benefits and faults of the two types? Thanks.
Chris
ps. Remove the word "FILTER" from my email address to reply.
Jan Steckel
Here is my version of the difference between the two rolls. I'm a paddler
who ended up teaching numerous kayak clinics for the outfitter I used to
work for so I learned how to teach the roll using human gunea pigs.
The C-to-C roll and the sweep roll both start in the same way: from the
set up position, sweep the control blade along the surface of the water
until the shaft of the paddle is about 90 degrees (perpindicular) to the
long axis of the kayak. From there, in the C-to-C roll, execute a hip
snap while using the paddle blade as a brace. In the sweep roll, the hip
snap is exectuted while the sweep of the control blade continues.
An advantage of the C-to-C roll is that it is easier to break it up into
three distinct steps (set-up, sweep to 90 degrees, hip snap) and so it can
be easier for a beginner to learn. A disadvantage of the C-to-C roll is
that weak execution of the third step often results in the paddle blade
diving below the water surface instead of staying on top. This is
particularly likely to happen if the paddler is too eager to get his or
her head out of the water or if the paddle blade is at the wrong angle
with respect to the surface of the water.
In the sweep roll, the hip snap is done DURING the paddle sweep instead of
after it. As the sweep needs to be smooth and the hip snap should be
"snappy", the coordination is somewhat more difficult for a beginner to
master. However, since the paddle continues sweeping along the surface
during the hip snap, there is a bit less of a tendancy for the paddle to
dive. I think the sweep roll is considered to be a slightly more powerful
roll in pushy water.
An approach which can be successful is for a beginner to start by working
on the three steps which comprise the C-to-C roll and then transform it
into a sweep roll as he or she becomes more confident and fluid.
Robert E. Molyneaux
the paddler to maintain his/her forward momentum, and tends to be a
little faster. A missed sweep can also easily be continued into a
reverse sweep (essentially a scull) by sweeping forward from the end of
your first sweep attempt while maintaining your head "dinked" and still
driving your sweep side knee up.(Sorry about the run on sentence).
--
Rob Molyneaux, PA-C
I took so many rescue classes, now my wife teases me.
remove "nospam" from address to return mail
Steven Robertson
My understanding is that the hip snap in a sweep roll begins right after
you begin your sweep and the sweep/hipsnap becomes one fluid movement. The c
to c (to my understanding) requires that you go into your set-up poisition
then sweep out until your torso is in a "c" shape(facing up towards the
water's surface), then you snap your hips and form "c" shape with your torso
pointing down towards the water surface. It seems to me the best description
is the sweep roll is continuous in nature and the C-to-C is in two or three
distint parts where one can stop and get oriented.
From what my learned instructors have told me I have gleaned that it is
common for most boaters to develop their own hybrid of either. I'm not sure
if that implies most boaters develop bad habits because they don't have
professional instructors teaching the "right" way when they first start to
learn the roll or that everyone is unique therefore, no roll is alike. At
any rate, I'm glad you asked the question as I'm very interested in otheres
comments. Time to put my learning cap on.,
drydog
Chris Rouffer wrote in message <35A37400...@mitel.FILTER.com>...
Michael Daly
> Hi
>
> I was just wondering what the difference is between a C-to-C roll and a
> Sweep roll. From what I have seen, they look pretty similar. Also,
> what are the benefits and faults of the two types? Thanks.
The other responses were pretty good. The only thing I'd
add is that the C-to-C starts with the shoulder joint open and
has a greater risk of shoulder injury.
Mike
Jonathan McAnulty
the same way but they differ on the follow through of the sweep. A
properly performed C-C should not open up the shoulder joint to any
great degree as your elbow should be kept in fairly tight to the torso
as it progresses. There is one other thing to add. The sweep roll ends
with the paddler back on the deck facing up. If you miss your roll this
means you are more exposed (face) to rock while trying to re-tuck to
start the roll again. The C-C ends in a near tucked position so if you
miss your roll the back of your helmet and life jacket are exposed to
the rock whizzing by and you are very close to the ready position to try
again.
Jon
john a. mcclenny
: Michael Daly wrote:
: >
: > Chris Rouffer wrote:
: >
: > > Hi
: > >
: > > I was just wondering what the difference is between a C-to-C roll and a
: > > Sweep roll. From what I have seen, they look pretty similar. Also,
: > > what are the benefits and faults of the two types? Thanks.
: >
: > The other responses were pretty good. The only thing I'd
: > add is that the C-to-C starts with the shoulder joint open and
: > has a greater risk of shoulder injury.
: >
: > Mike
: I'm not sure what you mean about the shoulder joint. I start these rolls
: the same way but they differ on the follow through of the sweep. A
: properly performed C-C should not open up the shoulder joint to any
: great degree as your elbow should be kept in fairly tight to the torso
The C-to-C requires the elbow to come up close to the head to reach
the first C. The sweep roll keeps the front elbow slightly above
the waist level for the entire roll. The sweep has substantially
less shoulder exposure than the C-to-C.
: as it progresses. There is one other thing to add. The sweep roll ends
: with the paddler back on the deck facing up. If you miss your roll this
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is way obsolete technique and no reputable instructor should
be teaching this. The proper end position is a rotated, but upright
torso, with the head looking at the paddle blade.
: means you are more exposed (face) to rock while trying to re-tuck to
Jonathan McAnulty
>
> Jonathan McAnulty (nospamM...@svm.vetmed.wisc.edunospam) wrote:
> : I'm not sure what you mean about the shoulder joint. I start these rolls
> : the same way but they differ on the follow through of the sweep. A
> : properly performed C-C should not open up the shoulder joint to any
> : great degree as your elbow should be kept in fairly tight to the torso
>
> The C-to-C requires the elbow to come up close to the head to reach
> the first C. The sweep roll keeps the front elbow slightly above
> the waist level for the entire roll. The sweep has substantially
> less shoulder exposure than the C-to-C.
>
> : as it progresses. There is one other thing to add. The sweep roll ends
> : with the paddler back on the deck facing up. If you miss your roll this
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This is way obsolete technique and no reputable instructor should
> be teaching this. The proper end position is a rotated, but upright
> torso, with the head looking at the paddle blade.
...some more snippage..
I certainly concede that my description is how I learned the sweep about
20 yrs ago. For those reasons I learned and have only used the C-C. Your
description makes sense and sounds reasonable. However, a final point
might be made that the student that makes the sweep improperly will try
to extend the sweep move and can end up on the back deck (I still see
this on the river). This improper performance of the sweep will result
in exposure if they don't come up.
Jon
KSTRELETZK
>with the paddler back on the deck facing up.
No one does a sweep roll like that anymore. The way Tom McEwan taught me to
roll (what he calls a screw roll) is to sweep out with the paddle planning on
the surface of the water, starting the hip snap at about 45 degrees (instead of
at 90 as in the C to C). It's extremely powerful, very fast and it uses the
entire motion of the torso and hips in conjunction with the "lift" provided by
the planning paddle to right the boat. I've heard some yammering about what
Chris Spelius is calling a Slasher roll, and from the 3rd hand descriptions of
what I've heard this sounds pretty close to the mark here. The Slasher roll
does have a catchy sound to it!
- Mothra (aka Kathy Streletzky)
"No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time,
it is not the same river he is not the same man. - Anonymous"
Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid)
via a Dinty Moore short story
Steve Cramer
>
> I've heard some yammering about what
> Chris Spelius is calling a Slasher roll, and from the 3rd hand descriptions of
> what I've heard this sounds pretty close to the mark here. The Slasher roll
> does have a catchy sound to it!
>
years ago. He emphasized that it should feel effortless, which it does
if performed correctly. I think the phrase he used was "just sit up
diagonally." The key is body rotation, not body bending, as in the
C-to-C, which makes it easier for those of us with less than perfect
flexibility. I think it keeps the elbows in a bit better than the
C-to-C, as well.
Steve
Will boof
paddling I was told by Carolina Canoe Club members that the C2C was the best
roll for southeastern rivers and the "sweep"," western roll","screw roll""slash
roll" was better for western rivers. They explained that the C2C was better in
the "foam", because you didn't have to depend as much on your blade grabbing
the water. I have been using the sweep for 20 odd years. My freinds will tell
you" it's the ugliest roll I've ever seen, but somehow Robert manages to make
it work." I call it a lazy man's( or woman's) roll" because it takes so little
effort. If you miss your roll slahing toward your stern, you can reverse your
slash, towards your bow, and get a second chance.
TStew97378
good roll, but exposes your face a little more. Tyler
Joel Terwilliger
for the water to "calm down." Many times I have set up with my paddle
perpendicular to the boat and avoided having rocks hit me in the face.
Instead, my arms and extended tuck tend to take the bashing.
If you're setup for a sweep-to-sweep roll your head tends to be in front
(because you need more "time" to start from the bow and finish perpendicular to
the hull.
Jonathan McAnulty wrote:
> Michael Daly wrote:
> >
> > Chris Rouffer wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I was just wondering what the difference is between a C-to-C roll and a
> > > Sweep roll. From what I have seen, they look pretty similar. Also,
> > > what are the benefits and faults of the two types? Thanks.
> >
> > The other responses were pretty good. The only thing I'd
> > add is that the C-to-C starts with the shoulder joint open and
> > has a greater risk of shoulder injury.
> >
> > Mike
> I'm not sure what you mean about the shoulder joint. I start these rolls
> the same way but they differ on the follow through of the sweep. A
> properly performed C-C should not open up the shoulder joint to any
> great degree as your elbow should be kept in fairly tight to the torso
> as it progresses. There is one other thing to add. The sweep roll ends
> with the paddler back on the deck facing up. If you miss your roll this
> means you are more exposed (face) to rock while trying to re-tuck to
> start the roll again. The C-C ends in a near tucked position so if you
> miss your roll the back of your helmet and life jacket are exposed to
> the rock whizzing by and you are very close to the ready position to try
> again.
> Jon
Will boof
position, with your paddle set ready to roll. Being rather clumsy and allways
pushing my limits, I have had more combat rolls than all my skilled little
buddies put together. I have never hit my face, even though it may look like
it. I cracked some vertibrae in '87 kayaking down a hill in the snow, since
then my flexability has precluded me from a C2C. But I can "screw roll" with my
hands.
Joel Terwilliger
paddle moves from the perpendicular position (relative to the boat) toward the
stern. In a c2c your face is always protected by your outside arm because your
paddle never leaves the perpendicular angle to the boat.
Really, so many rolls have become individualized that my opinion is just that-an
opinion.
Bonnie Mitchell
water situations. With a sweep roll, your arm is extended and if you
were to catch a rock it would pull your arm back strongly, possibly
causing dislocation. I do about ten variations of both types of rolls
depending on how I go under, the currents, my momentum, my position,
etc. Often the safest roll is the one that gets you up quickest, but if
your in a shallow steep rapid, its best to tuck hard and do a c to c, in
my opinion.
Jimmy Blakeney
john a. mcclenny
: I'd have to agree strongly that the c to c is a safer roll in white
Depends on how archaic a sweep roll someone does. The old 'screw'
roll did feature a more extended arm position.
The 'modern' sweep roll keeps the leading arm closer to the torso
than the C-to-C. Both rolls start from the same tuck. In the
C-to-C the torso sweeps out to 90 degrees and the lead arm sweeps
out in line with torso before the hip snap. In this position the
elbow will either be wrapped around the head or across the face.
In this position, the shoulder is fairly exposed to tweakage.
In the sweep roll, the elbow never moves higher on the torso
than the rib cage during the roll. The forearm moves from the
setup position to the shoulder, but the upper arm remains
quiet and the chance of shoulder injury is reduced compared to
the C-to-C. Keeping the elbow down reduces the chance of shoulder
injury.
john mc
JGarner109
What ever works go for it!
C to C can lead to the hand roll. Screw roll can lead to praise- Pawlata can
lead to breathing. Go for it.
John