What class rapid is Dimple Rock (yough)?
Rivertrek
this rapid. What is the difficulty of this rapid? Are there any
pictures of the rapid anywhere on the web?
Thanks,
Jim
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kathryn Streletzky
"cave" and is a very dangerous place - especially for inflatable passengers.
Canoes and kayaks, even when upset, seem to catch a jet of current and spin
free, while inflatables often flip and "stick" on the rock and if their former
occupants are inbetween the two, the outcome is very dangerous.
On guided trips, a guide is stationed on top of Dimple rock to provide for
rescue and safety.
And yes, I sit like a vulture on the videorock watching the carnage. At low
levels, sometimes as many as 1 in 3 rafts flip here.
- Mothra
brooke.
>underwater
>"cave" and is a very dangerous place - especially for inflatable passengers.
hmm... i'm opening a can of worms here. the newsreport said that they've been
renting unguided rafts there since 1974. hmm.. not sure how safe this
practice is...
i've run the loop a few times, and the whole section only once. i know that
i wouldn't feel comfy sending my brother and my mother down the loop in an
unguided raft. i know its not a gauley, or section IV of the chattooga, or
even a nr. gorge.. but still, the section is not a class II float.
yeah.. i don't want to start a big controversy here..
hmm.. how many of y'all would've felt comfy running this section in a kayak,
unguided, as your first or second trip on whitewater. i'm aware that there
are differences, but i think the lack of knowledge on the part of customers
pretty much negates that difference.
all of us have knowledge of river features. its ingrained into our heads.
its a part of the learning process. even if given a safety lecture of some
sort before they get on the river, is knowledge of river features really
something ingrained into their heads? no.. i can guarantee it.
i've written about how whitewater is something that average, non boater people
are seeing as an amusement park ride.. something that they don't need to take
any responsiblity in doing. reading that guidless rafts have been going down
the lower yough for decades makes me wonder how much of this attitude is
something that we as a boating community are helping to promote.
i fear what lack of knowledge and respect is going to do to the sport of
whitewater and then further what kinds of action people are going to take to
the river to make whitewater "safer".. we all remember the discussion of the
rapid out here in the west that was blown to bits to make it safer. is this
something we want to continue to happen?
...sigh.. i really think we, as a whitewater community, need to take
responsibility for what is happening in both rafts and hard boats.
*start flaming now*
-brooke.
"There is something ominous about a swift river, and something thrilling
about a river of any kind. The nearest upstream bend is a gate out of mystery,
the nearest downstream bend a door to further mystery."
-Wallace Stegner
Rivertrek
I think I read in the online newspaper article that they are
considering blowing up Dimple rock into 2 or 3 pieces. I have no idea
what the rapid consists of, except for the description that Mothra
replied to, but sometimes when they do dynamite a rapid it will change
whatever danger there was, but can cause new dangers that will be the
same as the original or even worse. Example is if they did dynamite
Dimple rock the pieces that are left could make a very nice sieve for
someone to get caught in. Sometimes the cure is more dangerous then the
problem. How large is this rock? House size? Or VW? Somewhere in
between?
Rivertrek
I just re-read the newspaper article and it says right there that the
rock is tank size. DUH, on my part.. Are there any pictures of this
rapid I could view on the web?
brooke.
>considering blowing up Dimple rock into 2 or 3 pieces. I have no idea
>what the rapid consists of, except for the description that Mothra
>replied to, but sometimes when they do dynamite a rapid it will change
>whatever danger there was, but can cause new dangers that will be the
>same as the original or even worse. Example is if they did dynamite
>Dimple rock the pieces that are left could make a very nice sieve for
>someone to get caught in. Sometimes the cure is more dangerous then the
>problem. How large is this rock? House size? Or VW? Somewhere in
>between?
>
i don't think its a matter of us looking at the consequences of us
(humankind) doing it.. its a matter of looking at the whole act. it is not
right. we can't just go in and blow up a river just because people aren't
taking proper safety precautions.
okay, lets blow up dimple rock. well shit. i want to be able to run the
narrows of the green but its too hard for me. okay then, i say lets go in and
fix all those rapids.. oh yeah, and the white salmon looks to hard for me to
run, but i'd love to do it to be able to see the scenery.. i say lets go blow
up those rapids... hey, we can even justify that one-- if richie weiss died
there than it must be dangerous, cause he was really good.. i could go on and
on and on. i think you get my point in the midst of the sarcasm.
if pennsylvania is even contemplating doing this, we, as a paddling community,
as a community that holds our rivers dear, that values the rivers probably more
than any other group (well, maybe except for the fishermen) need to rally
against even the thought of it.
i'm preaching to the choir here. we all know its not ethical.
Darth Rival
> hmm... i'm opening a can of worms here. the newsreport
> said that they've been renting unguided rafts there since
> 1974. hmm.. not sure how safe this practice is...
I'm sure. I'm certain that it is hideously dangerous. Mothra has
commented time and again that PA could save lives just by emulating the
West Virginia law that makes it illegal for outfitters to rent out rafts
and duckies. In WV, if you wanna go rafting you either go guided or buy
yer own boat and gear. Furthermore, in WV there must be a guide in
every raft; in PA there are three or four guides (including the
video-boater, who is a major profit center) for as many as 20 4- and
6-person rafts (typically one or two guides in a raft with no customers,
and one or two in kayaks, shouting instructions. And further still, in
WV every customer must be supplied with a PFD and HELMET, whereas, last
summer on the Lower Yough I met a kid with a bleeding head who had been
told by the outfitter that he *did not need* a helmet! Pennsylvania
could follow WVs example and adopt intelligent laws instead of
dynamiting the rock, but it's a bureaucracy that knows nothing about the
problem domain, so it probably won't.
> reading that guidless rafts have been going down the lower
> yough for decades makes me wonder how much of this attitude
> is something that we as a boating community are helping to
> promote.
We're not helping promote it at all. Unguided rafts on the Lower Yough
are a worse pain in the tailfeathers than big raft trips, and private
boaters don't like 'em, and don't want to see more of 'em. It is the
raft companies and the profit motive that promote the attidute that
whitewater rafting is harmless fun.
-Darth, really sad about that poor young girl.
==========================
May the Farce be with you!
==========================
DavesVideo
< Are there any pictures of this
rapid I could view on the web? >>
A couple of people have asked this, so I took a quick look through my video
tapes and put up ywo pictures at
http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave/dimple.html
That's Ed Evangelidi in the canoe and unknown people in the raft. As I recall,
the water was quite low that day and many rafts were flipping.
Dave
http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave
Mary Malmros
brooke. <river...@aol.comriver> wrote:
[snip]
>
>hmm.. how many of y'all would've felt comfy running this section in a kayak,
>unguided, as your first or second trip on whitewater. i'm aware that there
>are differences, but i think the lack of knowledge on the part of customers
>pretty much negates that difference.
Not quite the right question, Brooke. A lot of first-timers would feel
comfy doing it, because they wouldn't know what they are up against.
>all of us have knowledge of river features. its ingrained into our heads.
>its a part of the learning process. even if given a safety lecture of some
>sort before they get on the river, is knowledge of river features really
>something ingrained into their heads? no.. i can guarantee it.
Maybe for some very imaginative folks, but I think for most, something
has to happen to make it real.
>i've written about how whitewater is something that average, non boater people
>are seeing as an amusement park ride.. something that they don't need to take
>any responsiblity in doing. reading that guidless rafts have been going down
>the lower yough for decades makes me wonder how much of this attitude is
>something that we as a boating community are helping to promote.
I guess it all depends on how widely you define the "boating community".
Anyone who owns, uses, or rents a boat? How about the folks who
sell 'em? In my recent ACA newsletter I read something about a project
to create a safety brochure of some sort. Nothing new in this idea, but
the object was to distribute it to new boat owners -- presumably through
retail shops selling boats. I think this is an excellent idea; IMO,
if you want to maximize the results for your effort, the newbie is the
one to target. And, since so many people simply buy a boat and put it
on the water without seeking out any instruction, this is the best way
to reach the newbies who aren't being reached now.
>i fear what lack of knowledge and respect is going to do to the sport of
>whitewater and then further what kinds of action people are going to take to
>the river to make whitewater "safer".. we all remember the discussion of the
>rapid out here in the west that was blown to bits to make it safer. is this
>something we want to continue to happen?
>
>...sigh.. i really think we, as a whitewater community, need to take
>responsibility for what is happening in both rafts and hard boats.
I'm not gonna flame, but I am gonna quibble -- maybe. I don't know if
we "as a whitewater community" _can_ do anything. For a community to
act, it has to have some kind of cohesion and sense of shared purpose.
There's a retailer in Boston that I know who sells whitewater kayaks.
I don't think they have a single whitewater paddler on the staff.
They may have a few people who've paddled something somewhere, but
for the most part, the people you find on the floor there know nothing
on paddling. They'll happily sell people a boat, but they aren't
clued in enough to advise them on safety. They almost certainly don't
even know where to send them for instruction. How much do you or I
have in common with that segment of the "whitewater community"?
I think most actual whitewater paddlers do take responsibility for
the safety of those around them, as much as it's possible to do so.
There are glaring exceptions, of course. Last Saturday I met an
18 year old woman, been paddling for a month, taken a newbie class,
had no roll...and had already been taken on the Dryway, a class III-IV
section of the Deerfield River, by her boyfriend. Nutty. Just nutty.
We talked a bit, and it seemed to me that she was in part suffering
from 18-year-old-I-can't-die syndrome. But most of the reason
why she was out there was her boyfriend's encouragement. He's
not exactly an old river rat himself -- started at the beginning
of the season. I've seen this kind of thing before, and it seems
to me that the "encourager" is most often not very experienced
him/herself. Why do they do it? I have no idea. Maybe they
want to see their friends get slaughtered, so they'll feel all
studmuffinly. Who knows. I _do_ know that when she took her
newbie course, this gurl had been given good safety instruction, and
certainly would not have ben encouraged to go run the Dryway. But
she was getting other "instruction" in the other ear, and guess
which took.
But I think that kind of behavior is the exception. I really do.
I've seen a lot of paddlers helping out people who were over their
heads, advising them in polite terms to walk off the river, warn
them against standing up in the river, etc. But it's hard to
find a way to talk to people who are in the mode of hearing what
they want to hear. When I questioned this woman's decision to
go on the Dryway, she went into full rationalization mode
("we portaged a lot"). I didn't argue with her, just said, "You
shouldn't be there." Not very polite. I wish I'd thought to
point out to her that by being there without the skills to run
the river, she was putting more people at risk than just herself.
That might have made an impression. As it is, with her being
egged on by her yahoo boyfriend, she's not getting the gentle
newbie reality check that she needs. *sigh* It's a "pay me now
or pay me later" thing, and it comes due with interest.
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net
"I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
for the joys of the multitude"
brooke.
just to clarify.. i mentioned that "we as a whitewater community" ... in that
"we" i very much include the raft companies. i'll be honest, i've not been
around many raft companies (i try to avoid them if i can).. i'm knowledgeable
of the NOC, and have known some MRT, NARR and Class VI guides.. all the people
that i've known that are involved with these companies are knowledgeable river
folks. thats why i said "we"..
...should i assume that the owners and staff of the rafting companies in
ohiopyle are not river folk? i would hope that my original assumption was
correct. if its not, they have no business in their line of business.
so. if my assumption is correct that all these folks are river folks then yes,
we are all one big community.
..i think its ridiculous that we can't legislate ourselves. that it takes
state laws to do the logical. after all, most, if not all, legislators are
not members of our community.
..if i were i penn i'd say, lets take action. talk to the raft companies, try
to reason with them, and then start taking other tactics.. not sure what.. the
only thing i can think of right now is tactics ala ACT UP and the lesbian
avengers. this has to change.
Kathryn Streletzky
>state laws to do the logical.
the legislation in WV was accomplished at the REQUEST of the rafting
outfitters. part of the reason why the legislation is so good - the outfitters
themselves figured out how to safely introduce the public to whitewater and
asked the WV legislators to codify it.
- Mothra
BarnettW3
>we as a whitewater community (need to do something)!!!!!!!!!
Right on, Honey.... educate, pontificate, graduate or fornicate the message----
howevers needed to get the job done !!!
But HELL NO to legislate !! ... the gubinit has NO BIDNESS tellin citizens how
to (or "not to") be stupid.
Darwin rules ... and no, that ain't cruel
As for the dynamiters... I can tell them where they might hide that stick !
Most unfortunate that 'Blowin it up' has occasionally been the small mind's
remedy
BUT as much as I dislike em, this situation on the Yough should be settled
between the Pennsylvania lawyers and the irrational businessmen in the area ...
once the former's got all the later's money... there ain't no mo problem!
>if i were i(n) penn i'd say, lets take action.
> talk ....>reason ....>other tactics
I don't think this or the lesbian avengers is right ... this isn't a social
situation where society should decide.... this be basic freedom of
choice....you either decide 'From a full deck of cards' , that's been
adequately "posted" OR you "suffer baby!"
Jest Actin Up,
Barnett :)~
Wilko
>
> brooke. <river...@aol.comriver> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >hmm.. how many of y'all would've felt comfy running this section in
a kayak,
> >unguided, as your first or second trip on whitewater. i'm aware
that there
> >are differences, but i think the lack of knowledge on the part of
customers
> >pretty much negates that difference.
>
> Not quite the right question, Brooke. A lot of first-timers
> would feel comfy doing it, because they wouldn't know what
> they are up against.
Yep, knowing how I felt when I first started paddling, I would have run
(read: "swam" :-)) something like the Lower Yough without a second
though.
> >all of us have knowledge of river features. its ingrained into our
heads.
> >its a part of the learning process. even if given a safety lecture
of some
> >sort before they get on the river, is knowledge of river features
really
> >something ingrained into their heads? no.. i can guarantee it.
>
> Maybe for some very imaginative folks, but I think for most, something
> has to happen to make it real.
The old story of filling up the well, after the calf has drowned in it.
That's how people have though and IMO will continue to think...
> >i've written about how whitewater is something that average, non
boater people
> >are seeing as an amusement park ride.. something that they don't
need to take
> >any responsiblity in doing. reading that guidless rafts have been
going down
> >the lower yough for decades makes me wonder how much of this
attitude is
> >something that we as a boating community are helping to promote.
>
> I guess it all depends on how widely you define the
> "boating community".
Yep, that term is only useful *if* those rafting outfitters see
themselves as a part of that community *and* if they are willing to
think along those same lines. Since they haven't shown to be part of
the community in the past, I would guess that they see themselves as
business first, and not count on them thinking along the same lines as
we do.
> And, since so many people simply buy a boat and put it
> on the water without seeking out any instruction, this is the best way
> to reach the newbies who aren't being reached now.
Yep, I'm astounded at the amount of people I see on the river that are
paddling a brand new boat, without worrying about things like a
wetsuit, PFD or helmet. Also, when talking to a local outfitter
recently, he told me that he sold a lot of "beginner kits" (boat,
paddle and spraydeck) to people who don't know anyone else who
paddles... That sure makes me wonder when and where I'll run into those
people on the river.
> >i fear what lack of knowledge and respect is going to do
> >to the sport of whitewater and then further what kinds
> >of action people are going to take to
> >the river to make whitewater "safer".. we all remember
> >the discussion of the rapid out here in the west that
> >was blown to bits to make it safer. is this
> >something we want to continue to happen?
I think that the same thing happens here, as further up in this message
(wrt who "belongs" to the whitewater community): There are different
opinions of what should be done, and different people have different
limits to what they consider to be okay to do to the river.
For example: I'm all for removing strainers that are in dangerous
positions, but I thoroughly dislike the idea of blowing up things.
Safety is something of a consensus that we can reach through
communication, but since there are always going to be different views
on water related subjects, there is probably also going to be something
left to be desired by one or more parties involved...
I'm not sure what that lesbian group is that Brooke mentioned, but if
someone's proposing hardline action, I think that you're throwing in
your own windows... That will not make the point, it will just cause
trouble for the rest of the boating community.
> But I think that kind of behavior is the exception. I really do.
> I've seen a lot of paddlers helping out people who were over their
> heads, advising them in polite terms to walk off the river, warn
> them against standing up in the river, etc. But it's hard to
> find a way to talk to people who are in the mode of hearing what
> they want to hear. When I questioned this woman's decision to
> go on the Dryway, she went into full rationalization mode
> ("we portaged a lot"). I didn't argue with her, just said, "You
> shouldn't be there." Not very polite. I wish I'd thought to
> point out to her that by being there without the skills to run
> the river, she was putting more people at risk than just herself.
> That might have made an impression. As it is, with her being
> egged on by her yahoo boyfriend, she's not getting the gentle
> newbie reality check that she needs. *sigh* It's a "pay me now
> or pay me later" thing, and it comes due with interest.
It's one thing to be social when it comes to other boaters, and point
something out to them, it's something else to take the responsibility
for someone who isn't interested to hear what you have to say.
I try to help whenever I can, but in some situations, you can talk like
crazy, and still fail to make someone see the risk involved. In that
case, for me it's simply a matter of taking a deep breath, going on
with life, and hoping that I don't have to haul their body out from
under an undercut.
We can't be held responsible for every John, Dick and Harry that just
happens to get into a boat, even though an accident will reflect badly
on boaters over all. It's like trying to prevent famine and wars on a
global scale, that hasn't been very successful either.
Concentrate on those nearer to you and try to make a difference there,
we simply aren't designed to carry the responsibility of everyone else
on our shoulders.
--
Wilko van den Bergh - Quibus<at>europe(dot)com
Eindhoven - The Netherlands - Europe
--- "Look Mum: No sense!" ---
Timothy McTeague
hooked up with two guys who were going to show my friend and I the route.
My friend blew the ferry and went straight down the middle and I quickly
peeled out sure that she would pin on Dimple. Well, she scooted through
just fine and I eddied out. The two "guides" eddied out next to me and one
of them said we should try the "tough" ferry above Dimple to a small eddy on
river left. Guide #1 made it ok but #2 got swept down to Dimple rock where
he flipped and pinned for a LONG time. He washed out and rolled up after
several attempts and he looked quite shaken. He said he knew he was better
off in the boat than swimming. Quite a scary thing to watch, I was thinking
how to get his body out of the undercut if he swam and didn't wash out.
Needless to say I didn't try the "tough" ferry. Be careful out there.
Tim McTeague
"Rivertrek" <rive...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8q5hac$qo7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I've read a couple posts in the last month or so about drownings at
> this rapid. What is the difficulty of this rapid? Are there any
> pictures of the rapid anywhere on the web?
> Thanks,
> Jim
>
>
yakmom
>
> It's not a very tough section unless you mess up. A couple of years ago I
> hooked up with two guys who were going to show my friend and I the route.
> My friend blew the ferry and went straight down the middle and I quickly
> peeled out sure that she would pin on Dimple. Well, she scooted through
> just fine and I eddied out. The two "guides" eddied out next to me and one
> of them said we should try the "tough" ferry above Dimple to a small eddy on
> river left. Guide #1 made it ok but #2 got swept down to Dimple rock where
> he flipped and pinned for a LONG time. He washed out and rolled up after
> several attempts and he looked quite shaken. He said he knew he was better
> off in the boat than swimming. Quite a scary thing to watch, I was thinking
> how to get his body out of the undercut if he swam and didn't wash out.
> Needless to say I didn't try the "tough" ferry. Be careful out there.
>
> Tim McTeague
>
Tim,
I don't do the "tough" ferry anymore - don't have the skills or the guts
or the mental attitude (look for where you want to be not where you
don't want to be).....but a great place to practice that move is in the
"S-Turn" rapid just shortly before Bruner Run. If you can make the ferry
from the river right eddy to the small shore eddy on the left (both
directions) confidently hitting the top of the eddy you should be ready
for the "tough" ferry at Dimple in both directions - should you care to
do it. It is a good idea to have a "spotter" at S-Turn as it is pretty
blind coming out of the right eddy going over to the left eddy.
sheila
Lightning
news:IuJx5.735$N66....@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
> It's not a very tough section unless you mess up. A couple of years ago I
My personal favorite line is the sneak that opens up on river right at
certain levels. I can be a big enough chicken that I try to avoid making the
same mistakes as others :-) Besides, I have to make Wallace Black Elk's
(well know Lakota Medicine Man) prediction about me come true: He said I'm
gonna live to have many long grey hairs. I aspire to it!
Rebecca
--
Some days kayaking is like a dance.
Others it is more like a train wreck.
Ann R Tickamyer
> It's a 3+.
I agree. But Dimple/Swimmers is AWA Benchmarked as plain vanilla class 3,
at late summer low flows.
Cecil
BigDon
> Yep, that term is only useful *if* those rafting outfitters see
> themselves as a part of that community *and* if they are willing to
> think along those same lines. Since they haven't shown to be part of
> the community in the past, I would guess that they see themselves as
> business first, and not count on them thinking along the same lines as
> we do.
Certainly I hope you are speaking of rafting companies in Penn. and
not rafting companies in general. I am a rafting guide and kayaker in
WV and yes the rafting companies are out to make money, but in the
safest way possible. My main question to these outfitters in Penn is
pertaining to liability. How are they insured with these kind of
practices? It would seem after a death the party that is insuring the
outfitters would realize that maybe they aren't being as safe as they
could possibly be and check out some other solutions. Take a look at
WV's policies and try to stick to them. Yes they have flaws, as does
every written process, but for the most part, this legislation helps us
all.
Bill Tuthill
>
> rivertrek asked:
> << Are there any pictures of this rapid I could view on the web? >>
>
> A couple of people have asked this, so I took a quick look through my video
> tapes and put up ywo pictures at
> http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave/dimple.html
Thanks much Dave!!!
My word, it looks like a class II- rapid if one stays right.
Is it as easy to do so as it looks? *
I like the system where we assign letter grades for rapids where
the technical difficulty and possible dangers are out-of-sync.
This one might be a 2d or 2e, or perhaps a 3d or 3e if it's not
possible to run it on the far right.
* (That sentence reminds me of a couplet from Alexander Pope:
"ten low words oft' in one dull line do creep;
and the reader's threatened, not in vain, with sleep."
Kathryn Streletzky
>Is it as easy to do so as it looks? *
Nope. Picture is deceiving. The current is accelerating here right towards
the rock - you have to drive hard right with determination and quite a bit
upstream from Dimple.
Below the "move" is a series of waves and holes to be negotiated.
- Mothra
Lori Maxfield
Bill Tuthill wrote:
>
> My word, it looks like a class II- rapid if one stays right.
> Is it as easy to do so as it looks? *
>
> I like the system where we assign letter grades for rapids where
> the technical difficulty and possible dangers are out-of-sync.
> This one might be a 2d or 2e, or perhaps a 3d or 3e if it's not
> possible to run it on the far right.
The picture shows the rock, but does not show the long
technical part of the rapid that is below Dimple. All of the
current heads towards the rock, but with scouting, and
strong anticipation, it is not *that* difficult to catch the
eddy behind the "guard rock" to the right of the entrance
to Dimple. I used to be able to do it in my old Sunrunner
IK, which was (is) a dog to paddle in terms of manuverability,
and really I'm nothing special as a paddler. It's just that I hate
to flip, so I always entered that rapid with ALOT of
adrenaline. The picture also does not show that most of the
3/4 right of the river above the rapid is choked with rocks,
so there is really only one very narrow entrance that truely
funnels all the water toward Dimple rock, which is essentially
on the left bank.
The rapid really is class III+, and not a pleasant swim for those
that flip in Dimple, although except for the first move at the top,
the rest of the rapid is probably class III- or so. I'll try to compare
it to something familiar on the west coast. It might be as if the
hole in Troublemaker on the SF American is above a small
stretch of Meatgrinder (although Dimple rock is much easier
to miss than the hole in Troublemaker). Or it's perhaps sort
of like Fowler's rock on the South Fork, where if you make
to move correctly, it's just read and run, but the consequences
of missing the move are great. (Could you imagine sending guideless
rafts down Fowler's you'd have 1 out of 3 rafts wrapping
at some water levels).
Hope this helps.
Lori Maxfield
(remove "no spam" to reply)
Lori Maxfield
their policies purely to make as much money as possible. It's also all
tied into the politics of river usage there. There are so many "commercial"
permits and so many "private permits". These HOARDES of people that
rent IKs at the Yough get to paddle under "private permits". Most of these
people wouldn't be "private" boaters by any stetch of the imagination
in other settings. It just amazes me. When I first moved from CA to PA
I just couldn't believe it. I don't think CAs laws are as formalized as
WV, but we never would have put customers in guideless rafts in a river
as difficult as the lower yough at any of the places I worked in CA. I never
tried getting a professional guide position in PA (even though I could have
used the extra money during grad school), because I always thought (by
observation) that the whole commercial situation on the Yough was just
one big uncontrolled mess. The policies of the outfitters there are just
one big accident waiting to happen, in my opinion.
I would voice strong opposition to "blowing up" dimple rock, and would
encourage the outfitters to take a more sane approach to taking customers
down that river.
Just My Opinion,
Lori Maxfield
Lori Maxfield
BigDon wrote:
> Certainly I hope you are speaking of rafting companies in Penn. and
> not rafting companies in general. I am a rafting guide and kayaker in
> WV and yes the rafting companies are out to make money, but in the
> safest way possible. My main question to these outfitters in Penn is
> pertaining to liability. How are they insured with these kind of
> practices? It would seem after a death the party that is insuring the
> outfitters would realize that maybe they aren't being as safe as they
> could possibly be and check out some other solutions. Take a look at
> WV's policies and try to stick to them. Yes they have flaws, as does
> every written process, but for the most part, this legislation helps us
> all.
The way they run things there does seem to be unique to rafting policies
in PA (they run trips on the Lehigh the same way, although the Lehigh
is a MUCH easier river). I've asked myself these same questions (about
liability) as I've observed what to me are sloppy practices on these
rivers.
I would never believe them myself, if I didn't observe them first hand by
having done alot of paddling on that river.
Lori Maxfield
Jordan Ross
>> http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave/dimple.html
>
> My word, it looks like a class II- rapid if one stays right.
> Is it as easy to do so as it looks? *
>
The right side of the river here is actually a large eddy behind a screen
of boulders. The only route aims directly and forcefully at the undercut
rock. Easy enough for an intermediate kayaker to avoid, but a deadly trap
for unguided rafters.
Jordan
Lori Maxfield
Mary Malmros wrote:
> In article <20000918143017...@ng-cg1.aol.com>,
> brooke. <river...@aol.comriver> wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >hmm.. how many of y'all would've felt comfy running this section in a kayak,
> >unguided, as your first or second trip on whitewater. i'm aware that there
> >are differences, but i think the lack of knowledge on the part of customers
> >pretty much negates that difference.
>
> Not quite the right question, Brooke. A lot of first-timers would feel
> comfy doing it, because they wouldn't know what they are up against.
I actually have been with groups that have taken first timers down this river
and down this rapid. This is actually a good river for it in carefully controlled
situations with good experienced to inexperienced ratios. When taking
newbies in inflatables, we always stop and spend a long time scouting.
We then send the experienced kayakers out with saftely, and talk about it alot.
A certain percentage of the time these people have swum, and it's been okay.
My objection to the "rental" policies of the outfitters, is that these "newbies"
are not with experienced guides. They generally don't stop to scout (or even
know enough to know they are SUPPOSED to scout). It is a good
intermediate river, and is a wonderful training river- so it is a place for
people to take the next step to improve their skills. I just don't
think people should be thrown in there blindly.
Lori
DavesVideo
< The picture shows the rock, but does not show the long
technical part of the rapid that is below Dimple. All of the
current heads towards the rock, but with scouting, and strong anticipation, it
is not *that* difficult to catch the eddy behind the "guard rock" to the right
of the entrance >>
My pictures did not do it justice, I found some more and replaced those with a
series showing the right and wrong approach. Look again at:
http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave/dimple.html
Hope these are better.
Dave
http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave
Kathryn Streletzky
>a
>series showing the right and wrong approach.
Nice, Dave! The line shows 2 kayakers heading for the eddy behind Pinball rock
- one successfully and one one. And a bad pin of a raft. Imagine being
stuffed between that raft and Dimple rock. Not pretty.
- Mothra
Tim Chandler
boater was ready to step up to doing the Cheat from doing the
Lower Yough. And then ferry back and forth in front of Dimples
rock, from the pinball rock back to the eddy, depending on the
level. If you have trouble with the "tough" ferry, you'll most
likely have *plenty* of trouble on the Cheat!
At 6' Dimples rock is a pourover, I lost a contact lens in there a
few years ago because I wasn't quite sure where I was on the river
due to everything looking different at that level!
Almost every time I've been on the Lower Yough, we've had to stop
and help out "self-guided" parties, who had pinned rafts, stranded
passengers on rocks, lost paddles, etc. etc. It was always a
wonder to me that the river was so forgiving of ignorance and lack
of boating skill. The inexperienced do seem to have an "amusement
park ride" idea of what they're in for, and most of the time
they're right. It is a real tragedy and I mourn the loss of this
poor girl but I doubt it will change anything. The DNR is only
interested in keeping order and revenues flowing, and just
watching a safety video doesn't give anyone much info or ability
on what to actually do on the river to avoid danger.
Tim
Timothy McTeague <mcte...@home.com> wrote in message
news:IuJx5.735$N66....@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
| It's not a very tough section unless you mess up. A couple of
years ago I
| hooked up with two guys who were going to show my friend and I
the route.
| My friend blew the ferry and went straight down the middle and I
quickly
| peeled out sure that she would pin on Dimple. Well, she scooted
through
| just fine and I eddied out. The two "guides" eddied out next to
me and one
| of them said we should try the "tough" ferry above Dimple to a
small eddy on
| river left. Guide #1 made it ok but #2 got swept down to Dimple
rock where
| he flipped and pinned for a LONG time. He washed out and rolled
up after
| several attempts and he looked quite shaken. He said he knew he
was better
| off in the boat than swimming. Quite a scary thing to watch, I
was thinking
| how to get his body out of the undercut if he swam and didn't
wash out.
| Needless to say I didn't try the "tough" ferry. Be careful out
there.
|
| Tim McTeague
|
| "Rivertrek" <rive...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
| news:8q5hac$qo7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
| > I've read a couple posts in the last month or so about
drownings at
| > this rapid. What is the difficulty of this rapid? Are there
any
| > pictures of the rapid anywhere on the web?
| > Thanks,
| > Jim
| >
| >
Foobar T. Clown
>
> My word, [Dimple Rock Rapid] looks like a class II- rapid if one
> stays right. Is it as easy to do so as it looks? *
Not for rafters. Hard boats have several options, but rafters can only
ride the flume and try to dodge the undercut/pillow rock. It's really
no big deal to hit it except when a boatload of yahoos all lean to the
low side. That only happens twenty or thirty times on any given
Saturday or Sunday afternoon.
The class III rating is more for what's down stream of the pillow
rock. Swimmers usually just get bumped and bruised. But with so
many of them, it's always just a matter of time before the next
death or injury.
Foobar T. Clown
>
> Certainly I hope you are speaking of rafting companies in
Ohiopyle state park is a unique case. More than twenty years ago,
they decided to allow a fixed number of boaters per day, divided into
so many guided boaters and so many unguided boaters. Sounds good in
theory, but almost half the slots are for unguided boaters, while most
of the people who show up on any given weekend are clueless yahoos.
Simple economics predicts that the outfitters will equip the yahoos
and send 'em down the river without guides.
Private boaters (the _real_ ones) like the status quo, and have so far
defeated every proposal that would take away their slots. The guided
outfitters like it too, because it prevents further competition (each
one of four outfitters gets an equal share of the daily guided slots.)
The only change the companies want to make is to increase the
proportion of guided slots.
A fair system, (which nobody wants) would give general permits
directly to users. A user with a permit could then choose to go
guided or, to use his own boat. Unguided rentals would disappear,
and the annual deaths would just about disappear too.
Alice Potter
Sad for consequences of those in inflatables and uninitiated.
Alice
"DavesVideo" <daves...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000918190743...@ng-cs1.aol.com...
> rivertrek asked:
>
> < Are there any pictures of this
> rapid I could view on the web? >>
>
> A couple of people have asked this, so I took a quick look through my
video
> tapes and put up ywo pictures at
> http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave/dimple.html
>
Lori Maxfield
Alice Potter wrote:
> Got to admit, that looks like fun -- as long as the "right" line is taken.
> Sad for consequences of those in inflatables and uninitiated.
>
Yes, it's a very fun, almost perfect "intermediate" river. Of course that's
why it's so popular. I think it's one of the two most rafted rivers in the
U.S., with the South Fork of the American in CA being the other.
Lori
Steve Culy
Actually, I believe that the Arkansas and the Ocoee are still numbers
one and two, respectively. Personally, I'd prefer it if the Ark was
further down the list.
--
----------------------
Steve Culy
Visual Numerics, Inc.
sc...@boulder.vni.com voice:(303)245-5328
Lori Maxfield
Steve Culy wrote:
> Lori Maxfield wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it's a very fun, almost perfect "intermediate" river. Of course that's
> > why it's so popular. I think it's one of the two most rafted rivers in the
> > U.S., with the South Fork of the American in CA being the other.
> >
> > Lori
>
> Actually, I believe that the Arkansas and the Ocoee are still numbers
> one and two, respectively. Personally, I'd prefer it if the Ark was
> further down the list.
> --
I'm quoting statistics that I heard 10 years ago- maybe it's changed.
:-)
Lori
brooke.
>> one and two, respectively. Personally, I'd prefer it if the Ark was
>> further down the list.
>> --
ack! if the ocoee and arkansas are #1 and #2 then thats bad.. *thinking of the
nantahala*
Michael W. Wellman
>> Yes, it's a very fun, almost perfect "intermediate" river. Of course that's
>> why it's so popular. I think it's one of the two most rafted rivers in the
>> U.S., with the South Fork of the American in CA being the other.
>
> Actually, I believe that the Arkansas and the Ocoee are still numbers
> one and two, respectively. Personally, I'd prefer it if the Ark was
> further down the list.
I don't know what the facts are; however, I've been on both the Arkansas and
the Yough during prime boating season and both are insane.
But the Arkansas is usually only really insane from really late May/early
June through late July/early August.
Whereas, the Yough is insane from mid-May through mid-October. But
otherwise nicely boatable nearly year round.
During "raft time", the Arkansas is wall to wall rafts (1). If you eddy
out, you may be in the eddy for 15+ minutes. And, if you're out with the
rafts, in many of the rapids, especially in Browns Canyon, it feels really
claustrophobic. Big rafts, filled with clueless passengers, and most are
"guided" by seemingly totally out of control college students who barely
meet the legal standards to "guide"...and there's mostly one line for the
rafts. Pray for the minuscule kayaker who might be on that line.
At peak "amusement park customer flow", the Arkansas is way more crowded
than the Nanty or the Yough. I don't think I've seen the Ocoee at peak flow
since I've never been there on a weekend, so I can't compare that one.
The raft guides on the Arkansas do try and start their trips early in the
day so that it's a little safer for the other boaters. But a lot of them
run two trips a day...
mikel
PS: The AWA claims that the Arkansas is the "most popular recreational river
in the United States". But for all I know that includes fishing, skiing,
swimming, picnicking, and so on as it makes its way into Kansas, Oklahoma,
and Arkansas. So I looked further...
PPS: GORP claims: "The Arkansas River is one of the nation's ten most
popular recreational boating rivers. Highly valued for its diverse
recreation, this 100 mile stretch is used by more than 400,000 rafters,
kayakers, fishermen, campers, and wildlife viewers each year."
(1) I was last on the Arkansas late July in 1995. It was a really high
water year for them. In Browns Canyon, you could have literally walked a
1/4 mile upstream, the rafts were piled up so closely to one another.
Shortly after I left, the guides lived a nightmare. One boat wrapped...and
something like 20 of the next 30 wrapped or flipped trying to avoid them.
Each upset raft dumping 6-8 people into the very cold, very fast Arkansas
River. It was 12+ hours until they finally figured out that they'd pulled
everyone out of the water. And since there'd already been 3 fatalities on
the Arkansas that year, they were stressing (5 total died by the end of the
year).
Darth Rival
> > Actually, I believe that the Arkansas and the Ocoee
> > are still numbers one and two, respectively.
Bear in mind, the Nantahala is a ~7-mile release-controlled stretch with
a couple of boatable upstream stretches that depend upon extreme weather
events. The Ocoee is ~6 miles of frequent releases plus ~6 miles of
infrequent releases. The Yough has the Upper, which averages perhaps a
hundred boaters/week for 6 or 8 months of the year, the Middle which
probably gets the same, and then the heavily rafted Lower.
But the Arkansas has Pine Creek, the Numbers, the Fractions, Frog
Rock/House Rock, Brown's Canyon, and the Rooyal Gorge, to my knowlege,
and perhaps more boatable sections betweenn Leadville and the plains.
That's a lot more miles of river for those dedicated pushers of hypalon
to clog up.
-Richard
==========================
May the Farce be with you!
==========================
Steve Culy
I was just picking a nit. Lori was referring to the "two most rafted
rivers" in the US, and I was just recollecting what I read in American
Whitewater (or was it Paddler?) last year. I agree that "most rafted" does
not equate to "most crowded".
Having said that, I believe that most of the raft traffic on the Ark is in
two sections: Brown's Canyon and the Royal Gorge. Brown's is 13 miles
long, and the Gorge is 9 miles long. If anyone has any hard data on this, I
would love to hear it.
Steve