Hullspeed - kayak/canoe/IK
Bill Tuthill
Last week while visiting my family in upstate NY we took an old
Grumman canoe out on a lake. It seemed to me that my bro-in-law
and I, paddling as hard as we could, were only going about 3 mph,
the same speed I can attain in my AIRE Lynx. I realize Grummans
are not among the finest or fastest canoes, but I thought any canoe
would outpace any IK. Also, I noted that I can sit comfortably in
my IK all day, but kneeling hurts after 10 or 20 minutes.
Does anybody have any actual numbers on how fast different boats are,
assuming the same person is paddling them? It seems clear that a
double-bladed paddle is more efficient and allows paddlers to attain
higher speeds than a single-bladed paddle. I've always thought it
went like this:
sea kayak 6 mph
tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
WW kayak 4 mph
AIRE Lynx 3 mph
other IKs 2 mph
14' raft 1 mph
For those long marathon paddle races, such as the Texas Downriver
Classic or the General Clinton Marathon (NY), what would be the best
paddlecraft to choose? Would it be allowed under existing rules?
Carey Robson
For absolutely everything you ever wanted to know about canoe design see:
"Canoesport Journal" Vol. 2 Nos 2, 3 & 4. 1988.
_________________________________________________________
Sincerely,
Carey Robson
President - Recreational Canoeing Association of British Columbia
Western VP - Canadian Recreational Canoeing Association
Master Instructor
Bill Tuthill <t...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<tutDxE...@netcom.com>...
> Last week while visiting my family in upstate NY we took an old
> Grumman canoe out on a lake. It seemed to me that my bro-in-law
> and I, paddling as hard as we could, were only going about 3 mph,
> the same speed I can attain in my AIRE Lynx.
> Does anybody have any actual numbers on how fast different boats are,
> assuming the same person is paddling them?
Bruce Wilkinson
> >I've always thought it went like this:
> > sea kayak 6 mph
> > tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
> > WW kayak 4 mph
> > AIRE Lynx 3 mph
> > other IKs 2 mph
> > 14' raft 1 mph
speed or cruising speed. I do know that, with a good paddle crew, I can
get my 14' raft going a lot faster than 1 mph.
Michael Edelman
Bill Tuthill <t...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<snip>
>I've always thought it went like this:
> sea kayak 6 mph
> tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
> WW kayak 4 mph
> AIRE Lynx 3 mph
> other IKs 2 mph
> 14' raft 1 mph
Well, consider that displacement craft have a maximum hull speed:
SQRT(length at waterline in feet) = max speed in knots.
As a displacement hull tries to move faster, it runs into its own bow wave.
So a 16' hull has a max speed of about 4 knots, regardless of design.
To go faster you have to get up on a plane.
To go 6 knots, you'll need a 36' hull...
--mike
Don Rumrill
The Grummans aren't quite that slow; the theoretical hull speed for
a 15' boat is just shy of 6 mph and some of the people racing them
in the recreation classes can push them past that for long periods
of time. It probably isn't necessary to kneel in a Grumman unless
you are in class 2+ or higher water, their stability is unbelievable
and the reach to clear the gunwales is excessive ( this advice is for
experienced ww paddlers only!).
I don't know about the Texas race, but the General Clinton
prohibits the use of double bladed paddles and, quite frankly, I
don't think I would care to use one. It would take an exceptionally
trained paddler to go the distance holding up the paddle.
The following types of boats are allowed and classed in the
G.C.: 3x27 pro boats, comp cruisers, rec boats; including aluminum,
up to 18.5' in len., but not "Beaver" boats which may be classed in
either the standard or comp. cr. classes, standard, and one man
boats.
Bill Tuthill
Bill Tuthill
Michael Edelman (m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu) wrote:
> Well, consider that displacement craft have a maximum hull speed:
> SQRT(length at waterline in feet) = max speed in knots.
> As a displacement hull tries to move faster, it runs into its own bow wave.
> So a 16' hull has a max speed of about 4 knots, regardless of design.
> To go faster you have to get up on a plane. To go 6 knots, you'll need
> a 36' hull...
You forgot the "times 1.34" part. A knot equals 1.150779 mph. Hence
SQRT(length of waterline in feet) * 1.34 = hull speed in knots
or
SQRT(length of waterline in feet) * 1.34 * 1.150779 = hull speed in mph
So a 16' waterline has a hull speed of 5.36 knots, or 6.17 mph. Of course
hull speed is not the same as actual boat speed, bla bla bla.
Bill Tuthill
Don Rumrill (rum...@bns101.cs.lmco.com) wrote:
> I don't know about the Texas race, but the General Clinton
> prohibits the use of double bladed paddles and, quite frankly, I
> don't think I would care to use one. It would take an exceptionally
> trained paddler to go the distance holding up the paddle.
What is the total distance? I thought winning times were in the 10 hour
range, and heard that many people finish in the dark.
Anyhow, I find that a good kayak paddle is no more tiring than a good
canoe paddle. The alternating circles of kayak paddling require
relatively little motion and are easy on your muscles (though perhaps
not on your wrists, depending on feather).
The fact that double-bladed paddles are not allowed tells me something
(that they would decrease finishing times). Kayak paddles are more
efficient because the motion of returning your blade to the water isn't
wasted, since that's when the second blade is in the water.
> The following types of boats are allowed and classed in the
> G.C.: 3x27 pro boats, comp cruisers, rec boats; including aluminum,
> up to 18.5' in len., but not "Beaver" boats which may be classed in
> either the standard or comp. cr. classes, standard, and one man
> boats.
Would a sea kayak (i.e. touring kayak) be allowed in the 1-man category?
I remember noting after a recent Olympics that in flatwater paddling
events, kayakers beat rowers over similar distances.
Bray Haven
you wrote: to go 6 knots you'd need a 36' boat. OWTTE:
That doesn't seem right if you consider sailboats or other displacement
type hulls. Take the Hobie cat for instance which is clearly a
dispalcement hull and can easily make 18-20 knots in good wind. Where are
all those marine engineers out there when we need them.
G. Sefton
Alex Ferguson
>Does anybody have any actual numbers on how fast different boats are,
>double-bladed paddle is more efficient and allows paddlers to attain
>went like this:
> sea kayak 6 mph
> tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
> WW kayak 4 mph
For touring I allow 3 knots for a sea kayak, about 6 km/hr and as much as 9
km/hr for a double with a couple of strong paddlers. For navigation we were
doing 5 km/hr on the Fiji circumnavigation - heavily loaded singles and a low
powered front paddler in the double. Down wind we, in the double, could leave
the singles in the dust.
Alex
--
----------------------------------------------------
Alex Ferguson a.fer...@chem.canterbury.ac.nz
Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury
Christchurch, New Zealand
Michael Edelman
Bray Haven (bray...@aol.com) wrote:
: you wrote: to go 6 knots you'd need a 36' boat. OWTTE:
Nope, it's a planing hull at speed.
--mike
Donald Haines
In article <511co0$k...@cwis-20.wayne.edu>, m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes:
> Bill Tuthill <t...@netcom.com> wrote in article
> <snip>
> > sea kayak 6 mph
> > tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
> > WW kayak 4 mph
> > other IKs 2 mph
> > 14' raft 1 mph
>
>
> SQRT(length at waterline in feet) = max speed in knots.
>
>As a displacement hull tries to move faster, it runs into its own bow wave.
>So a 16' hull has a max speed of about 4 knots, regardless of design.
>To go faster you have to get up on a plane.
>
>To go 6 knots, you'll need a 36' hull...
>
Has anyone told this to marathon canoeists who AVERAGE 8 knots over several
hours? The hull speed is not a limit, it is just a barrier that most decent
canoes, almost every sea kayak, and most ww kayaks are regularly pushed
past by strong paddlers.
Don Haines
Michael Edelman
Donald Haines (do...@mars.dgrc.doc.ca) wrote:
: In article <511co0$k...@cwis-20.wayne.edu>, m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes:
: >
: >To go 6 knots, you'll need a 36' hull...
: >
: >--mike
: Has anyone told this to marathon canoeists who AVERAGE 8 knots over several
: hours? The hull speed is not a limit, it is just a barrier that most decent
: canoes, almost every sea kayak, and most ww kayaks are regularly pushed
: past by strong paddlers.
On a river the question comes to mind: Upstream or down? ;-)
Seriously, the only way to go faster than hull speed is to power a boat
up over the bow wave. This takes a tremendous increase in power.
WW boats have the advantage of generally travelling downstream. I don't
think any of them can plane for extended periods ;-)
--mike
James B. Clark
The winning time for the men canoe singles 500m race in Atlanta
(and no, they weren't going downstream) was about 1:50. This is 110
sec. The average speed is 4.55 m/s, which is 8.8 knots.
I didn't know these boats were 75 feet long.
Jim Clark
Joshua E Lieberman
There isn't actually some policeman to stop a hull from going over its
hull speed...
As I understand it, a hull can be pushed over its hull speed, it just
requires more and more driving force for smaller speed gains. With
very narrow hulls such as on a catamaran, the force increase is still
minor compared to the capabilities of the sail.
This is familiar enough in kayaking, where not much effort is required
to glide along, but much more effort may be required just to go a bit
faster. I have experienced this acutely trying to keep up with sea
kayaks in a WW boat. Can be done - is not pleasant.
There is another factor in the "hull speed" equation which involves
the overall length to waterline length ratio. Chichester discusses this
in refering to Joshua Slocum's boat which had essentially vertical stem
and stern, so theoretically should have stood still in the water...
Josh
bray...@aol.com (Bray Haven) writes:
> you wrote: to go 6 knots you'd need a 36' boat. OWTTE:
>That doesn't seem right if you consider sailboats or other displacement
>type hulls. Take the Hobie cat for instance which is clearly a
>dispalcement hull and can easily make 18-20 knots in good wind. Where are
>all those marine engineers out there when we need them.
>G. Sefton
Don Rumrill
The General Clinton race is 70 miles long, starting in Cooperstown N.Y.
(baseball hall of fame) and down the Susquehanna River to Bainbridge
N.Y. The fastest times; usually set by Serge Corbin, will be in the
7 to 8 hour range depending on the river level. The river varies from
a narrow, winding creek after the start to a man-made lake, to a more
typical riffle-pool, riffle-pool sequence with lots of eddies and
cross-currents. A few 1 to 2+ rapids are thrown in for good measure
along with 3 carries and large number of down trees and log jams.
It's a long day but worth it. Some of the rec boats do finish
after dark but they're slowed by the weight of the beer. The rec boats
start at 6:00 AM so they have 15 or 16 hours of daylight to work with.
As a point of reference, we won the men's master rec class one very low
water year in 11:58.
Back to hull speed: A good team in a pro boat or comp cruiser
can do 15 miles in dead water in about 1:55, or about 7.8 mph! This
is considerably above the theoretical hull speed of 6.6 mph, but you're
not prohibited from doing that, it just takes more power....and
technique...and training...and....
Tom Jenkins
Bill and all,
I saved this article from rec.boats earlier this year, sorry I did not
catch the arthors name --
[ "Hull Speed" is usually used in reference to displacement type hulls,
although the term does have an application to almost all hulls. It
is the speed at which the hull makes a wave as long as its water line.
Thus, at hull speed, the boat is sitting in its own trough. Further
increases in speed require the hull to climb over the bow wave, and
this requires a tremendous increase in power, and after climbing over
the wave, the hull is planing. Of course, this can happen only if the
hull is a planing hull, or close to a planing hull. Most displacement
hulls would simply drop their stern deeper in water.It is very similar
to an aircraft breaking the sound barrier in air.
Hull speed is generally accepted as being equal to a speed/length
ratio of 1.34, where S/L ratio = velocity in knots/square root of
the length of the water line.
( S/L = V knots/sq.rt.LWL )
This ratio of course can vary somewhat, especially with very long,
thin hulls as opposed to short, fat ones. But for the average
displacement hull, this formula holds reasonably true. Generally
speaking, an S/L ratio of about 1.0 to 1.2 will give an economical
cruising speed in terms of fuel consumption. 1.34 will give a practical
maximum speed, while speeds above this will dramatically increase fuel
consumption for a given hull.
After about S/L 2.0, a vessel usually begins to plane, if it is
capable.
To express the hull speed of a vessel in terms of its water line, the
above equation will yield:
V knots = 1.34 (sq. rt. L.W.L)
I hope this doesn't "muddy" the water. ]
Now what is the ratio of knots to miles?
Bill Tuthill wrote:
>
> Last week while visiting my family in upstate NY we took an old
> Grumman canoe out on a lake. It seemed to me that my bro-in-law
> and I, paddling as hard as we could, were only going about 3 mph,
> the same speed I can attain in my AIRE Lynx. I realize Grummans
> are not among the finest or fastest canoes, but I thought any canoe
> would outpace any IK. Also, I noted that I can sit comfortably in
> my IK all day, but kneeling hurts after 10 or 20 minutes.
>
> Does anybody have any actual numbers on how fast different boats are,
> assuming the same person is paddling them? It seems clear that a
> double-bladed paddle is more efficient and allows paddlers to attain
> higher speeds than a single-bladed paddle. I've always thought it
> went like this:
>
> sea kayak 6 mph
> tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
> WW kayak 4 mph
> AIRE Lynx 3 mph
> other IKs 2 mph
> 14' raft 1 mph
>
> For those long marathon paddle races, such as the Texas Downriver
> Classic or the General Clinton Marathon (NY), what would be the best
> paddlecraft to choose? Would it be allowed under existing rules?
The Texas Water Safari alloows the use of double bladded paddles. How I
have seen them used is in the faster currents, then switch back to
singles for the long haul. ;-)
--
Happy trails...
Jenks
Why? How? You bet! Lets do it...
Tom Jenkins
Maximum Hull Speed of boats
Velocity in Miles per Hour =
(Square Root of boat length in Feet) * 1.54204386
or
Velocity in Knots per Hour =
(Square Root of boat length in Feet) * 1.34
(Thanks go to Bill Tuthill for the Knot to Mile Ratio)
mike_pidel
Bruce Wilkinson <b...@teleport.com> wrote:
>> Bill Tuthill <t...@netcom.com> wrote in article
><snip>
>> >I've always thought it went like this:
>> > sea kayak 6 mph
>> > tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
>> > WW kayak 4 mph
>> > AIRE Lynx 3 mph
>> > other IKs 2 mph
>> > 14' raft 1 mph
>I don't know where these figures are from and whether they represent top
>speed or cruising speed. I do know that, with a good paddle crew, I can
>get my 14' raft going a lot faster than 1 mph.
i'm not sure of the speed but a good crew in a k4 will get a
waterskiier up from a standstill. thats acceleration!
Petri Havanto
> you wrote: to go 6 knots you'd need a 36' boat. OWTTE:
> That doesn't seem right if you consider sailboats or other displacement
> type hulls. Take the Hobie cat for instance which is clearly a
> dispalcement hull and can easily make 18-20 knots in good wind. Where are
> all those marine engineers out there when we need them.
Not a marine engineer but I'll try to play one. The hull speed is a
function of the length of the hull but the efficiency of at speeds
above that is determined by the shape of the hull, too. Actually, the
formula of the hull-speed is a bit more complicated than the one
presented but not too complicated to print on one line in a book.
In a general case, determining the speed of a hull at a given power,
I'd be extremely amazed if there was a closed-form function that would
give it. To me, it seems like a infinitely complicated differential
eq-group. This would not mean that the problem would be unresolvable,
at some precision, numerically.
All the best,
Petri
Bray Haven
Thanks to Petri Havanto for a nice explanation of what the original writer
meant. Unfortunately I only read what he said (the original) which was
"to go 6 knots, you need a 36' hull". This didn't say theoretical or
design hull speed etc. That seemed (and was) totally wrong. THanks to
all those who clarified the point, that's how we all learn. I've found
paddlers, for the most part, to be very knowledgable and willing to share
that knowledge and enthusiasm about their sport. More so than most other
sports.
Michael Edelman
Bray Haven (bray...@aol.com) wrote:
: Thanks to Petri Havanto for a nice explanation of what the original writer
: meant. Unfortunately I only read what he said (the original) which was
: "to go 6 knots, you need a 36' hull". This didn't say theoretical or
: design hull speed etc. That seemed (and was) totally wrong.
Not in context, it wasn't. The original issue under discussion
seems to have gotten lost in discussing the actual speeds
attainable by paddled craft.
The point I was making was that to exceed hull speed a boat needs to climb up
and over its bow wave, which take a lot more energy than moving at hull
speed. I also stated that the formula for hull speed I gave was
approximate.
Recall that the original post listed various craft, ordered as to
their efficiency, ranging from 1mph to 6mph. That's what I was
addressing in my post. Obiviously with enough power a raft could get
on a plane and go 40 knots ;-)
But in general, if you want to estimate the maximum speed of a displacement
hull, the formula I gave (knots = sqrt(length at waterline) serves
very well. You can add the correstion for MPH, as one poster did, if
you like ;-)
--mike
Chris
In article <514c0b$8...@cwis-20.wayne.edu>, m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu says...
>
>Donald Haines (do...@mars.dgrc.doc.ca) wrote:
>: In article <511co0$k...@cwis-20.wayne.edu>, m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu
(Michael Edelman) writes:
>: >
>: >To go 6 knots, you'll need a 36' hull...
>: >
>: >--mike
>
>: Has anyone told this to marathon canoeists who AVERAGE 8 knots over
several
>: hours? The hull speed is not a limit, it is just a barrier that most
decent
>: canoes, almost every sea kayak, and most ww kayaks are regularly pushed
>: past by strong paddlers.
In reality the beam (width) also plays a large part in hull speed; read any
text on boat design for the precise formula. I design boats for a living and
I can assure you that narrow hulls go faster than 1.35 X square root of the
waterline. But I don't tell too many people this because it confuses things
and demands complicated explinations.
Chris Kulczycki
Chesapeake Light Craft, Inc.
Barker
Do these formulas represent true maximums or just approximations. Using
a 18.5 crusier as an example they indicate a maximum of 6.63 mph. I'm
pretty sure the tandum racers excede that speed in no current flat water.
Even in a solo I can push it for a burst I'm not that good. I can
understand that it might represent the point were you hit your own bow
wave but so what. If I just paddle harder why can't I push through it.
I also though that the bow wave must propagate through the water and reflect
off the bottom. It seems that somehow can result in 'stuck water' when the
depth is about a foot. But given deep water how do I hit the bow wave.
Finally, since a canoe does not have a rectangular wetted cross section
isn't there a bow wave formed from every point on the wetted edge while
the linear distance between the wetted edges is increasing. As almost
a quarter of the canoe is always ahead of its bow wave, what does hitting
it really mean.
Tom
Bill Tuthill (tut@ishi) wrote:
: Michael Edelman (m...@pookie.pass.wayne.edu) wrote:
: > Well, consider that displacement craft have a maximum hull speed:
: > SQRT(length at waterline in feet) = max speed in knots.
: > As a displacement hull tries to move faster, it runs into its own bow wave.
: > So a 16' hull has a max speed of about 4 knots, regardless of design.
: > To go faster you have to get up on a plane. To go 6 knots, you'll need
: > a 36' hull...
: You forgot the "times 1.34" part. A knot equals 1.150779 mph. Hence
Leon Granowitz
I believe that hull speed is equal to the product of the square root of
the water-line length and Reynolds number for the boat in question.
Reynolds number can be greater than 1. I have a 10 foot Walden Paddler
Kayak and I have been able to go about 6 miles in just under 1 hour.
Since the distance is approxiamtely correct (based on a map) I believe I
am paddling at about 6 knots.
Sheila Craig
In article <Sheila_Craig-1...@macscraig.ca.newbridge.com>,
Sheila...@Newbridge.com (Sheila Craig) wrote:
> In article <51848p$8...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Leon Granowitz
> <le...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > I believe that hull speed is equal to the product of the square root of
> > the water-line length and Reynolds number for the boat in question.
> > Reynolds number can be greater than 1. I have a 10 foot Walden Paddler
> > Kayak and I have been able to go about 6 miles in just under 1 hour.
> > Since the distance is approxiamtely correct (based on a map) I believe I
> > am paddling at about 6 knots.
>
> 1 knot = 1 nautical mile which does NOT = one stat. mile. You may have
> been paddling at 6 miles per hour but that translates to about 4 knots. (I
> forget the exact translation) - someone with more recent navigational
> schooling than mine may be able to supply it here.
> -Sheila
Sorry for the double post but I just got educated: 1 nautical mile = 1
minute of latitude which is 1.15 miles. Therefore, 6 mph = 5.2 knots.
Cheers,
-Sheila
Sheila Craig
Don Rumrill
You most certainly can exceed the theoretical "deep water"
hull speed if you put enough power to the boat. By the way, the
1.543*sqrt len(ft) formula is for deep water. In shallow water
the bow wave moves back ( retards ) and slows you down; called cement
water in polite circles. In very shallow water, 1 ft or less, some
racers can use this phenomenon by sprinting into the shallows fast
enough to get the CG of the boat ahead of retarded bow and surf on it.
This is not easy to do, you need to push the boat up to 9-10 mph and
carry this momentum into the shallows. Needless to say there is not
much water for your paddle and the rocks and gravel really fly!
Leon Granowitz
Sheila...@Newbridge.com (Sheila Craig) wrote:
>In article <Sheila_Craig-1...@macscraig.ca.newbridge.com>,
>Sheila...@Newbridge.com (Sheila Craig) wrote:
>
>minute of latitude which is 1.15 miles. Therefore, 6 mph = 5.2 knots.
>Cheers,
>-Sheila
Of course 1 nautical mile is more than a statute mile. However, I said I
paddled 6 miles in less than 1 hour.Given that I didn't supply the exact
time, there is no way you know I didn't average 6 knots. Further,
assuming since I averaged approximately 6 knots for almost 1 hour, don't
you think that I can sprint much faster for a short time. I think I could
paddle 7 knots for a minute or less. Of course, near maximum hull
speed,the additional power required for each increment of hull speed is
very high. I would have to carefully measure this to see if I could
really do it.
Have a nice day and good paddling.
Doug Rebard
Michael Edelman wrote:
>
> But in general, if you want to estimate the maximum speed of a displacement
> hull, the formula I gave (knots = sqrt(length at waterline) serves
> very well. You can add the correstion for MPH, as one poster did, if
> you like ;-)
>
> --mike
I've seen the waterline length formula of displacement boats published
as 1.3 times the square root of of the water line length. I believe
that this is only a rough approximation, but it seems to work. I've
been in 36' sailboats that broach out of control at 8 or 9 knts, usually
trying to surf downwind.
The good flatwater paddlers alway amaze me with the speeds they get over
long distances. They do go awfully fast, but sometimes the distance of
these races are not carefully measured or reported.
just my two cents
Doug
Eric Sonett
Thank you for mentioning this 'variation.' A fine shaped hull can pierce
the bow wave instead of immediately attempting to climb over it and most of
the exceptions to the "cook-book" formula have fine bows. Having raced keel
(sail) boats (displacement hulls) and paddled DR, slalom, and sea kayaks,
I'm not sure what an "average displacement hull" is...
Tom Jenkins <je...@flash.net> wrote in article <32361C...@flash.net>...
| Bill and all,
|
| [ "Hull Speed" is usually used in reference to displacement type hulls,
| although the term does have an application to almost all hulls. It
| is the speed at which the hull makes a wave as long as its water line.
| Thus, at hull speed, the boat is sitting in its own trough.
M.SK...@amtrash.comlink.de
Topspeed:
K IV: 24 km/h
K II: 22 km/h
K I : 20 km/h
C IV: 22 km/h
C II: 20 km/h
C I : 18.5 km/h
C I : 19 km/h
10000m:
K I: 39 min
K II: 35 min
K IV: 33 min
C I : 45 min
C II: 39 min
(Olympic champions/world champions on flat water/no wind)
## CrossPoint v3.02 R ##
mike pidel
On 16 Sep 96 00:17:00 +0200, M.SK...@AMTRASH.comlink.de wrote:
>Topspeed:
>
>K IV: 24 km/h
>K II: 22 km/h
>K I : 20 km/h
>
>C IV: 22 km/h
>C II: 20 km/h
>C I : 18.5 km/h
>
>C I : 19 km/h
>
>10000m:
>K I: 39 min
>K II: 35 min
>K IV: 33 min
>C I : 45 min
>C II: 39 min
>
>(Olympic champions/world champions on flat water/no wind)
>## CrossPoint v3.02 R ##
>
twhat were the winning times for lake lanier 500 meter and 1000
meters? what races were those times posted for the 10k?, olympic
sprint events are only 500meter and 1000 meter , i think sydney may
introduce a 10k meter marathon race.
i believe the winning times were posted awhat weelready for the
sprint races at lake lanier , can someone repost them .
Ken Ferschweiler
Doug Rebard (dre...@mail.sure.net) wrote:
: Michael Edelman wrote:
: >
: > But in general, if you want to estimate the maximum speed of a displacement
: > hull, the formula I gave (knots = sqrt(length at waterline) serves
: > very well. You can add the correstion for MPH, as one poster did, if
: > you like ;-)
: >
: > --mike
: I've seen the waterline length formula of displacement boats published
: as 1.3 times the square root of of the water line length. I believe
: that this is only a rough approximation, but it seems to work. I've
: been in 36' sailboats that broach out of control at 8 or 9 knts, usually
: trying to surf downwind.
The formula is simply that for deep-water wave speed, c=sqrt(lg/2pi),
where l is wavelength and g is gravity. It's only valid if the water
depth is greater than about l/2pi (otherwise your hull speed is
sqrt(gd), where d is depth). The 1.3 constant just makes the formula
easy to use if you have your waterline in feet and want your speed in
knots. Of course, given enough power, you can climb the face of your
own bow wave; this takes a lot of power in a displacement sailboat,
which creates a large bow wave, but not that much in a canoe or kayak,
which doesn't create a very big wave to overcome. Broaching has to do
with a lot of aspects of boat design other than waterline length.
: The good flatwater paddlers alway amaze me with the speeds they get over
: long distances. They do go awfully fast, but sometimes the distance of
: these races are not carefully measured or reported.
: just my two cents
And mine.
: Doug
========================
Ken Ferschweiler Internet: ken...@cs.orst.edu
Department of Computer Science
Oregon State University
woolbert lab
In my downriver racing boat (16'6") fully laden for 10 days, my partner
and I can average 4 miles an hour. In my 17'3" solo marathon canoe I
cna go for 6-7 mph for 15-25 miles. I'm pretty sure I read that pro's
can average around 9 mph in a pro boat with bent shafts. At the General
Clinton, double-bladed paddles are illegal 9except in kayaks) while in
the Texas Water Safari, the fastest teams use a 25-30' long, 18" wide
missile with 4 paddlers and double-bladed paddles. Sometimes they are
beaten by people in tandem boats, simply because its hard to portage
something 30' long.
Hope this helps!
-- Andrew Gooding
Niels
In my 21 tandem kayak (21 ft Tred Avon)
I average 9km/h with 2 adults at a comfortable fast pace for several
hours on a clam day. (measured)
Definately not straining.
Niels Henriksen
Aylmer, Que (Ottawa) Canada
t...@netcom.com (Bill Tuthill) wrote:
[snip]
>Does anybody have any actual numbers on how fast different boats are,
>assuming the same person is paddling them? It seems clear that a
>double-bladed paddle is more efficient and allows paddlers to attain
>higher speeds than a single-bladed paddle. I've always thought it
>went like this:
> sea kayak 6 mph
> tandem canoe 5 mph <== now I doubt it
> WW kayak 4 mph
> AIRE Lynx 3 mph
> other IKs 2 mph
> 14' raft 1 mph
Niels Henriksen
Aylmer, Que, Canada (Ottawa)
Paul Croubalian
Canoes are displacement craft and therefore must conform to the rule
for MAX speed which is 1.55 times the square root of its length on the
water line.
This formula is the maximum speed in miles per hour that a given boat
can do. A 16' on water line boat will do about 1.55 X 4, or about 6
m.p.h.
This formula does not consider the effort required to get there.
A long skinny sea kayak shape will need much less effort to get to
speed than a fat paly boat shape, given th same length.
Your kayak, while probably shorter than the Crumman, needs less effort
to reach max speed. The advantage of having two paddlers is negated by
the greater water resistance and rthe effect of the max imum speed
formula. A dozen paddlers will not get a boat past its maximum.
Donald Haines
In article <51rgqb$a...@news.axess.com>, pa...@axess.com (Paul Croubalian) writes:
>Canoes are displacement craft and therefore must conform to the rule
>for MAX speed which is 1.55 times the square root of its length on the
>water line.
>
>This formula is the maximum speed in miles per hour that a given boat
>can do. A 16' on water line boat will do about 1.55 X 4, or about 6
>m.p.h.
>
There seems to be a lot of confusion over this. The formula for maximum speed is
the maximum speed of a displacement hull. Once you exceed this speed it becomes a
partially planing hull and then it becomes a planing hull. All you need is enough
power.
A 16 foot canoe with a small outboard can do 35 knotts. As such it is a planing
hull. When it is paddled gently it is a displacement hull. Put two strong paddlers
in it and it is somewhere between a displacement hull and a planing hull. As you
increase power you increase speed and more and more of the hull comes out of the
water. If you just look at the part of the hull in the water you will see that at
3 knotts it is a displacement hull. If you look at the same canoe at 20 knotts
(remember the outboard) you will see it skimming across the top of the water,
definitly a planing hull. At fast paddling speeds it is somewhere in the middle.
For all it's simplicity the hull of a canoe is quite complex and there are no
easy answers.
Don Haines
RMS
In article <51rkq8$s...@crc-news.doc.ca>, do...@mars.dgrc.doc.ca says...
(...)
>For all it's simplicity the hull of a canoe is quite complex and
>there are no easy answers.
The formulas are working formulas and not absolutes. Water tank
testing is required to find actual values for hull parameters.
I saw the Univ. of Ala. Huntspatch concrete canoe a couple of days
ago and this year the hull looks like a race canoe not a tub. It
almost looks like a wave ski with very little freeboard.
BTW they won this year. RMS
Bruce Winterbon
"Hull speed" is an arbitrary quantity, the speed at which the wave system
generated by the boat has a wavelength equal to the boat waterline length.
Wave resistance is increasing rapidly with speed for speeds near "hull speed",
and so it is difficult to push a displacement craft much faster than hull
speed. Wave resistance, neglecting interference effects between waves from
different parts of the hull, scales as speed to the fourth power, so a
doubling of speed requires 16 times as much power. Thus hull speed is an
approximate practical limit, and not a magic number of any sort.
Bruce Winterbon
bwin...@intranet.ca
http://intranet.ca:80/~bwinterb
mike pidel
>> sprint races at lake lanier , can someone repost them .
>
>GER 34:24,01 Szeged 1991
>
>KII Men 10.000m:
>NOR Holman-Ribe 35:52,93 Duisburg 1991
>
>KI Men 10.000m:
>USA Greg Barton 39:17,45 Duisburg 1991
>
>C2 Men 10.000m:
>DEN Nielson-Frederikson 39:16,93 Duisburg 1991
>
>CI Men 10.000m:
>HUN Bohacs 46:19,77 Szeged 1991
>
>KI Women 5.000m:
>HUN Rita Koeban 21:25,47 Szeged 1991
>
>KII Women 5.000m:
>HUN Donusz-Meszaros 18:33,63 Duisburg 1991
>
>
>Times taken from a table of
> "Record-times of all World-Championchip disciplines (1993)"
>
>from the book
>
> Jochen Lenz u.a.: Leistungs- und Trainingslehre Kanusport
> (Landes-Kanu-Verband Sachsen-Anhalt e. V., Magdeburg 1994)
>
>
great thanks, 39 min for 10k on water by greg barton! i cant run a
10k on land that fast.
1996 olympic sprint results
mens 500meter k1 antonio rossi 1.37.42 italy
womens 500 meter k1 rita koban 1.47.89 hungary
mens 1000 meter k4 2..51.52 germany
mens 500 meters k2 1.28.69 germany
womens 500meters k2 1.39.32 sweden
i have pictures of the athletes paddling to the start and some of the
finish, and lake lanier olympic festival anyone interested email me