Royalex All Purpose canoe comparisons.
Willis Stephen
(used). My problem is that I need a canoe that can do it all : Big windy
lakes, long gruelling protages, and class 3 whitewater. Ideally it should
be light, fast, manouverable, strong, and stable. This is obviously
unrealistic since strong (enough for whitewater) and light have an
inverse relationship, as do (stable/easy to turn) and fast. I do run
whitewater so I've concluded that kevlar and fiberglass are not strong
enough. I portage alot, sometimes over 2 Kilometers (1 1/2 miles) in one
stretch so ABS is too heavy.
Right now i'm looking at the Dagger series. If anybody has any
suggestions of other canoes I might like I'd love to hear it. The two all
round Dagger canoes made from Royalex seem to be the Legend 16, and the
Venture 17. The Venture, I'm told, will not handle aswell in whitewater
because its a little more tippy and doesn't turn as quickly. The
Legend, while it does better in whitewater looks much slower. Its wider and
bulkier looking. I think I'd prefer the Venture because I get bummed on
long canoe trips if I'm not making good time. I like a fast canoe. I've
done 60 miles in a day in a quick rental. How much am I giving away in
terms of ability to do whitewater if I take this over the Legend.
Conversely, how much am I giving away in terms of speed on a lake if I
take the Legend over the Venture ? There's also the reflection 16.
It's faster than the Legend, more manouverable than the venture,
and lighter than eithor. The problem, I'm wondering, is if it
could handle whitewater ? Any opinions ?
Just to get ridiculous: Other canoes i'd love to hear about :
- Mad river : Freedom, Explorer, or Eclipse
- Old twon : Camper.
Do any of these companies have factory outlets and/or fall clearance
prices ?
Thanks alot......... Stephen Willis
Jim Kauppila
Stephen) writes:
> Just to get ridiculous: Other canoes i'd love to hear about :
>- Mad river : Freedom, Explorer, or Eclipse
>- Old twon : Camper.
>
> Do any of these companies have factory outlets and/or fall clearance
>prices ?
>
>
>Thanks alot......... Stephen Willis
>
Stephen,
Can't speak for the other companies, but Old Town Canoes has a factory
store at the factory in Maine. This is where my wife and I bought our
Canadienne last fall.
good luck
Jim Kauppila
mike p
>- Mad river : Freedom, Explorer, or Eclipse
>- Old twon : Camper.
>
> Do any of these companies have factory outlets and/or fall clearance
>prices ?
>
>
>Thanks alot......... Stephen Willis
>
>I have been paddling a mad river eclipse for two seasons now and have
found it to be a great compromise. It is fast, relative to 16' royalex
canoes, it handles terrrific with good secondary stability and it is
reasonably light ( 62 lbs.) I have used it only on flat water, both
Adirondack lakes and the lower hudson river. I is not troubled by
the wind or the wake from frieghtors. However, it is a low volume boat
and seems to like a light bow paddler. All in all you can't go wrong. I
debated between this boat and the malecite, my two young daughters
made me stay away from the easier to damage glass boat. As the dealer
advised me "Paddling is supposed to be fun, its not fun if your angry
at your kids for bashing up the boat."
>Mike P.
>
Simon Tracy
wil...@qlink.queensu.ca (Willis Stephen) wrote:
> I've been asking questions about various canoes I've seen for sale
>(used). My problem is that I need a canoe that can do it all : Big windy
>lakes, long gruelling protages, and class 3 whitewater. Ideally it should
>be light, fast, manouverable, strong, and stable. >
> Just to get ridiculous: Other canoes i'd love to hear about :
>- Mad river : Freedom, Explorer, or Eclipse
>- Old twon : Camper.
>
> Do any of these companies have factory outlets and/or fall clearance
>prices ?
In the Old Town line, forget the Camper which is a wide, flat-bottomed
boat more suitable for hunters and fishermen.
Look for a Penobscot 16 (58 lbs) or 17 (65 lbs) for flat water speed
or the Appalachain 16 (67 lbs) for more rocker and better whitewater
performance. All boats are royalex with shallow arched bottoms for
good secondary stability. I have a Penob 16 (850 lb capacity) which I
use tandem or solo in up to class III whitewater. If you plan to
carry much gear on tandem trips the Penob 17's 1100 lb capacity would
be better. The Appalachain 16 has blunter ends, more rocker, a
stronger layup, and 1075 lb capacity.
For information on the WEB, visit:
http://www.otccanoe.com/oldtown/
There's a discount outlet in central Virginia, Appomattox River
Company in Farmville and Richmond, but that won't help you in Canada.
Check the web page for dealers or write OT. I believe the Old Towns
are less expensive than Daggers; I paid $679 for a new Penob 16.
-----
----- Simon Tracy _____ EMail _____ jc...@virginia.edu
Tom Molnar
Willis Stephen <wil...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
# I've been asking questions about various canoes I've seen for sale
# (used). My problem is that I need a canoe that can do it all : Big windy
# lakes, long gruelling protages, and class 3 whitewater. Ideally it should
# be light, fast, manouverable, strong, and stable. This is obviously
# unrealistic since strong (enough for whitewater) and light have an
# inverse relationship, as do (stable/easy to turn) and fast. I do run
# whitewater so I've concluded that kevlar and fiberglass are not strong
# enough. I portage alot, sometimes over 2 Kilometers (1 1/2 miles) in one
# stretch so ABS is too heavy.
Willis, let us know if you ever find such a canoe.
The Mad River Explorer is an old design, but quite functional. It's
wet in class III. It doesn't turn very well. It oilcans when empty.
The Freedom is a newer design and performs a little better in whitewater.
But it's still kind of short for serious wilderness travel on remote
northern rivers or big windy lakes.
The Dagger legend is much drier than an explorer because it carries the
center width well fore and aft. It has next to no tumblehome and is a
pain to paddle solo. But it turns very well, a real eye opener after
an explorer. Much better in class III. Not fast. Can pivot 360 degrees
with 50% fewer strokes. Carries heavier people better than the explorer.
Check out the new ABS canoe from Swift. It's a 17 1/2 foot canoe for
wilderness rivers. About 75 pounds. Patterned after the Dumoine from
what I hear. Should be worth looking at. Have never paddled it though,
so no comments there.
As to portaging the boat, investigate yoke alternatives. Try the
Grande Portage yoke from Mad River, compate Teal and Swift yokes,
or even, try to build a yoke as that described by Cliff Jacobsen in
"Canoeing wild rivers".
I wish someone would build a real yoke like that described by Calvin
Rutstrum in his book "North American Canoe Country". Would probably
be the most comfortable of the lot.
For me, I've found that a nice Teal yoke with 16 mm evazote foam
glued to the surface does the job.
My preference would lean towards the longest and biggest ww canoe that
I can still carry without too much pain. They are faster, pivot better,
stay drier, etc. Look at the newer designs, though.
Note: Teal yokes are a brand of carved yokes widely available here in
Ontario. They are very comfortable.
Tom
Shawn Burke
[edited text...]
> I've been asking questions about various canoes... Big windy
> lakes, long gruelling protages, and class 3 whitewater. Ideally it should
> be light, fast, manouverable, strong, and stable.
My wife and I bought an Old Town Penobscot 17, and a week later took it on
an impromptu week-long trip to Algonquin Park. Then, we took it on a
2-week trip in Northern Maine this past August. The boat is fast for a
Royalex hull, not too heavy (I portaged it solo across the Mud Pond carry,
which is 1.75 miles and quite muddy, and didn't suffer too much -- i had
installed a good portage pad), and can haul a ton of gear. We had lots of
wind on the latter trip, and it does great in most wind directions save for
large following waves from the rear quarter, which kept me _very_ busy in
the stern on Chesuncook Lake. Overall, we're extremely happy with this
boat.
As far as whitewater, we haven't had the opportunity to run any yet in this
hull. However, the Penobscot 17 is the dominant boat in rec-class
downriver racing up in Maine, and these races are held on rivers that
include class II, III, and IV whitewater.
> Do any of these companies have factory outlets and/or fall clearance
> prices ?
I've heard rumors that Mad River sells a few factory seconds, but have
never followed up on it. We bought our two Mad River solo canoes from a
small local dealer (Moor and Mountain, in Andover) who gave us great deals.
Old Town has a factory outlet in Old Town, right along the main street,
just down the hill from the factory. They only sell seconds and thirds
there. The stock is always changing: We bought our Penobscot 17 there in
early June, and they had 4 in stock at the time; about 3 weeks ago, they
had none in stock. Expect discounts on the order of 25% on seconds, and
more on thirds.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shawn Burke (bu...@bu.edu)
The Center for Photonics Research
Boston University, Boston, MA 02215
WWW: "http://eng.bu.edu/Photonics_Center/"
John Stewart
>Check out the new ABS canoe from Swift. It's a 17 1/2 foot canoe for
>wilderness rivers. About 75 pounds. Patterned after the Dumoine from
>what I hear. Should be worth looking at. Have never paddled it though,
>so no comments there.
I'd guess that you are thinking of the Swift Albany which is the only Royalex
boat they make that is over 17' long. I haven't paddled that boat but I have
taken a Swift Dumoine on a trip into Algonquin. This is smaller boat (16' 4")
that weighs 72lbs in Royalex, 62lbs in a lightweight Royalex or as little as
52lbs in kevlar.
We had a Swift Winisk and a kevlar Swift Dumoine on the trip. We knew the
Dumoine would be more maneuverable than the Winisk because it has more
rocker in both ends but the difference was still a surprise when we entered
a winding river section. The Winisk was paddled by a couple with a
considerable amount of canoeing experience and the bow paddler was working
hard to help the canoe go around the corners. My paddling partner in the
bow of the Dumoine had very little paddling experience and didn't know how to
assist in the turns -- in spite of this deficiency the Winisk was quickly
left behind out of sight. The Dumoine isn't as fast on lakes but the
difference wasn't really noticeable.
That trip really changed our view of what the ideal tripping boat should be.
Instead of selecting a boat that emphasises trackability and speed, we would
now sacrifice some trackability/speed for maneuverability. Since many
routes in Algonquin include long stretches of winding river a boat like the
Dumoine may very well provide a higher average speed than boats that
emphasis trackability. My friends are now replacing their Winisk with a
kevlar Dumoine.
The Winisk and its cousin the Kipawa are still good boats for less experienced
paddlers who will benefit more from having a boat that tracks well.
--
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jste...@ccs.carleton.ca 613-788-2600x3707
Freenet related queries: xx...@freenet.carleton.ca
Ross Payson
tripping canoe. I read the Swift Canoe web page and the Dumoine, Albany
and Madawaska are all rated ww/wt. They sound great but other than the
web page I've haven't seen or heard much about the Swift Canoes. Did you
take the Dumoine on any class II or III whitewater? How did it handle?
I appreciate any help you can provide on these or other canoes that are
rated both ww/wt. If you know of other paddlers that are familiar with
Swift Canoes and/or are knowledgable about ww/wt canoes. I would like to
get their recommendations.
Thanks.
Ross
Tom Molnar
John Stewart <jste...@algonquin.carleton.ca> wrote:
# In <DEr33...@bisco.utcs.utoronto.ca> mol...@bisco.utcs.utoronto.ca (Tom Molnar) writes:
# >Check out the new ABS canoe from Swift. It's a 17 1/2 foot canoe for
# >wilderness rivers. About 75 pounds. Patterned after the Dumoine from
# >what I hear. Should be worth looking at. Have never paddled it though,
# >so no comments there.
#
# I'd guess that you are thinking of the Swift Albany which is the only Royalex
# boat they make that is over 17' long.
John, it's a new one introduced this summer and it's called the Yukon. I've
only just heard about it recently. The name of it escaped me when I wrote
the lines above.
# ....
# That trip really changed our view of what the ideal tripping boat should be.
# Instead of selecting a boat that emphasises trackability and speed, we would
# now sacrifice some trackability/speed for maneuverability. Since many
# routes in Algonquin include long stretches of winding river a boat like the
# Dumoine may very well provide a higher average speed than boats that
# emphasis trackability. My friends are now replacing their Winisk with a
# kevlar Dumoine.
#
# The Winisk and its cousin the Kipawa are still good boats for less experienced
# paddlers who will benefit more from having a boat that tracks well.
Yup. I'm with you on that. Many years ago, when I ordered my cedar strip
canoe, I carefully specified "NO KEEL". Back then, they thought I was
weird. But I've always prized maneuverability over tracking.
Tom
GrEp
and fast with fine lines. Don't know if they will still make one, but it
was probably the best performing 'lex boat I've ever paddled. You might
call them.
Alan Dunne
not extensively. The Dumoine is a very versatile white water and river tripping
canoe. I is very manouverable and makes great eddy turns. It has an
asymmetric hull which gives it good hull speed and acceleration. I initially
found the Dumoine tricky to back ferry because of the asymmetric rocker, but
once I got used to it, it would respond to the bow paddler's turning strokes
faster when back ferrying.
Compared to the Mad River Explorer, the Dumoine had superior speed and
manouverability. The Explorer tracked a little better, but paddling skill
should compensate. I found the Mad River Freedom to handle white water better
than the Explorer, but it seemed to be very sluggish on the flats between
rapids. The Dumoine seems to be a little dryer than the Mad River canoes in
big waves. It has a deep bow.
The Swift Madawaska has more rocker than the Dumoine and is a little more
moanouverable still. The Madawaska would be a better canoe for single day
white water or playing, but my opionion is that the Dumoine is a better
compromise for wilderness tripping.
The Albany is longer and faster than the Dumoine, but less manouverable. The
nearest boat that comes to mind would be the Dagger Venture 17. I choose the
Dumoine over the Albany because it is a bit more versatile and had better
white water performance, both tandem and solo (it is more fun surfing and
does better eddy turns).
The Dumoine has been used extensively by Dave and Beth Buckley (wilderness
photojournalists from N.Y. state) on trips on many wilderness rivers (Mountain,
Fond du Lac, Churchill, etc) so it is a proven design for tripping.
Swift makes a new canoe, called the Yukon which I have not tried yet. It is
over 17' long and has a similar shape to the Dumoine. Apparently it was
designed at the request of the Buckley's. It would be faster than the Dumoine,
carry more gear, be a little dryer, and be almost as manouverable. On the
downside it would be a little heavier, not solo as well, and not fit in my
garage!
Alan Dunne
John Stewart
> The Dumoine and Yukon that were talked about in the last two appends:
>esp the Dumoine : Is this a Royalex or Kevlar canoe ? If its Kevlar, how
>strong is it compared to the Royalex, and finally; How much do these
>boats wiegh ?
It's available in either Kevlar (52 or 56lbs), regular Royalex (72lbs) or
a lightweight Royalex (62 lbs). The kevlar version has a pretty good
layup so it should withstand a fair amount of abuse though not as much as
a Royalex boat would.
> I'm still looking at the Penobscott 17 from Old town, but maybe I should
>be looking at swift. I'm jus concerned that the hulls aren't as strong.
I wouldn't expect too much difference in strength between a regular
Royalex Swift and an Old Town.
Info on the Swift canoe line is available on the web at
http://www.magi.com/~swift/
Willis Stephen
: In article <42soij$d...@knot.queensu.ca> wil...@qlink.queensu.ca (Willis Stephen) writes:
: >Path: news.unr.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.ccs.queensu.ca!qlink!williss
: >From: wil...@qlink.queensu.ca (Willis Stephen)
: >Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
: >Subject: Royalex All Purpose canoe comparisons.
The Dumoine and Yukon that were talked about in the last two appends:
esp the Dumoine : Is this a Royalex or Kevlar canoe ? If its Kevlar, how
strong is it compared to the Royalex, and finally; How much do these
boats wiegh ?
I'm still looking at the Penobscott 17 from Old town, but maybe I should