kayak paddling and wrist pain
Robert Scott
I'm an old-time canoe enthusiast new to kayaking. After my first few longer
trips (~10 miles) I had some shoulder pain the next day. I did a lot of
reading and Internet surfing regarding paddling technique and was able to
make some corrections and completely eliminate the shoulder pain after
paddling.
This weekend, I paddled a vigorous 9.5 miles and found that my right
wrist/forearm ( the top) was sore and swollen immediately afterwards (my
left wrist was fine). I'm right-handed, but set my paddle feathering at 45
deg. left. This seems to work well for my paddling stroke and requires no
conscious effort to turn or adjust the paddle shaft during the stroke to get
the blades in the right position for entry.
I use an Aqua-Bound Surge straight-shaft carbon paddle.
Any ideas on what faults in my technique could be causing the wrist problem?
Thanks for any tips,
desmobob
Bob Noble
I'm paddling.
Don't hold the paddle tight. Loosen up the hand grip. Paddling to me at
least is more of a push with one hand and a pull with the other. Put your
index and thumb together loosely around the paddle shift and do a push-pull
and you will see that you do not need to hold the paddle so firmly. I tell
them the same thing if they complain of blisters also. :O)
Might help arm pain some, but that's also just part of the operation if you
go far enough and you'll live. However, if you don't do something about the
wrist pain, you likely won't be paddling much.
Also, since you said you are an old time canoe person, I'd say try not to
use the old body so much. I don't go for the torso twist thing, my older
body can't do it much. Instead, I push my arms out more forward and mostly
use my arms to paddle and not my shoulders so much. People with bad
shoulders might be well to use this way as it minimizes shoulder movement.
You don't move your shoulder out of it's socket doing it this way. To me,
when the shoulder is out of it's socket, one is asking for more trouble. Out
of it's socket means like when you lift your shoulder high. In the socket
means when your shoulder is in it's normal relaxed position. Now, that may
not really be out of the socket, but that's my definition of it for
explanation purposes.
So, the further your arms are forward, the less you should have to use your
shoulder joints.
The other thing I do is I do not paddle in a cadence fashion. I paddle
four, six or eight strokes and then rest my paddle and glade a bit and do it
again.
When not paddling, I rest my paddle on the yak, with the blades cutting the
wind. That's why I don't use the offset paddles, as there would always be a
blade that the wind catches.
I've found that the wind mostly only catches the paddle if you let your
blade go high. Keep it low to the water and the wind doesn't catch it.
I'm not out there to beat myself up. This practice drives cadence paddlers
crazy because they are paddling like mad and I'm just lazy paddling with
them and going as fast or faster after awhile, as they tire out and they get
tired of trying to keep up and watching me lazy paddle unsettles a lot of
people. :O)
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
"Robert Scott" <desm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RvydnYfrnMiAOLfR...@earthlink.com...
John Kuthe
> Here's my take on wrist pain and what I tell newbie's that tell me that when
> I'm paddling.
> Don't hold the paddle tight.
When I first began paddling whitewater, I used to get blisters on my
hands. I was thinking gloves might be a good idea, but I didn't see
any of the experienced paddlers wearing any. I finally basked a more
experienced paddler how I could prevent getting blisters from paddling
and he told me the same thing! Don't hold my paddle so tightly. I then
realized that yes, I was holding my paddle with a death grip and I
loosened up and no longer got blisters. In fact I started making a
game of it with myself to see how loosely I could hold my paddle, just
kind of letting the paddle shaft float in my ringed fingers and thumb.
Made all the difference.
Also ergonomically shaped paddle shafts can help for wrist strain.
Those funnt bendy paddle shafts align better with your wrist's natural
geometry.
John Kuthe...
Bill Bradshaw
unfeathered paddles. Personally I do not feather my paddle (I have done
thousands of miles of sea kayaking so please everybody do not jump on me
:-)). Why not give unfeathered a try. Also as was as pointed out make sure
when you pushing your upper hand down the centerline of your kayak you have
a loose grip. As you you paddle more you will start using no more grip on
your paddle than is necessary.
--
<Bill>
Brought to you from Anchorage, Alaska.
Steve Cramer
spasm. Not good, but not your problem, I think. In any case, do try to
relax your top hand when you're pushing.
Top of the wrist is where the muscles and tendons live that you use to
cock your wrist back. Even with a 45 degree feather, you may be
aggravating those. Try unfeathered if you can. If you can't change your
feather without buying a new paddle, try lifting your right elbow
instead of bending your right wrist when stroking on the left.
As for shoulders, increasing arm involvement isn't the greatest idea.
You can prove it to yourself really easily. Have someone stand behind
you with their hands on your shoulders. First paddle with good torso
rotation. Then arm paddle. They'll tell you the difference in how much
your shoulder bones are rubbing against each other.
Steve
Bob Noble
it. One should do what works best for them.
However, I was out in a twenty three miles an hour wind with higher gusts
today on the river's mouth. If I put my paddle blade up in the air, about
three feet off the water, the wind tried to take it. Feathered or
unfeathered was a bad idea up there, so I kept the blades down.
So, if I keep my paddle down, feathered has no advantage, unless I just like
to paddle that way. And the way I paddle, feathered has disadvantages, since
I can't rest my paddle with both blades cutting the wind and I rest my
paddle a lot.
Interesting thing is when the wind is like this, there is rarely anyone else
out on the water. I don't know why, since the worse thing that can happen to
you is you can fall in and get wet and the water is fairly warm this time of
year, at least here. :O)
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
"Bill Bradshaw" <brad...@gci.net> wrote in message
news:qpGdncGjLeNfQbHR...@posted.gcicommunications...
Bob Noble
> can prove it to yourself really easily. Have someone stand behind you with
> their hands on your shoulders. First paddle with good torso rotation. Then
> arm paddle. They'll tell you the difference in how much your shoulder
> bones are rubbing against each other.
Let's see if we got this straight or not? :O)
I feel it if very important to minimize shoulder movement, a lot because I'm
an older person of sixty-three and because I feel they are the weak points
for body break down in paddling and if I'm not careful, could stop me from
paddling. My back isn't too good either.
The more you put your arms above your head, the more you will move your
shoulder joints. To minimize shoulder movement, I try to not put my arms
above my head.
Keeps the paddle blades out of the wind more too.
Instead, I tend to put my arms more forward of me and do a push-pull with my
arms, minimizing my shoulder and body movement. My arms are not gyrating in
any kind of circles, up in the air, just a push-pull, forward of me.
Now, if we were to look at this from an energy stand point, only moving my
arms a minimal distance will burn a lot fewer calories than moving my whole
torso and arms. It may make a lot of sense for short distance racing, but
not for leisurely paddling enjoyment, and especially cruising six to eight
hours most every day.
Note that I'm only discussing different ways of doing things and one should
always find the way that works best for them. I will note that most people
think what they are doing is right for them, but in reality, they have a
hard time spending more than two hours in their yak, feeling reasonably
comfortable. What I've worked out for myself is a way to spend all day in my
yak, feeling reasonably comfortable and I do this almost everyday
now.......................................... It's great to be retired. :O)
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
"Steve Cramer" <cram...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:i0j14l$64i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Too tight a grip causes the muscles on the bottom of the forearm to spasm.
> Not good, but not your problem, I think. In any case, do try to relax your
> top hand when you're pushing.
>
> Top of the wrist is where the muscles and tendons live that you use to
> cock your wrist back. Even with a 45 degree feather, you may be
> aggravating those. Try unfeathered if you can. If you can't change your
> feather without buying a new paddle, try lifting your right elbow instead
> of bending your right wrist when stroking on the left.
>
>
> Steve
Bob Noble
It's good to know I'm not the only guy that says a loose grip.
I'm self taught, learn by doing, so I don't always go with the flow of
things. :O)
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
"John Kuthe" <john...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e18180c4-25ae-4b7e...@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
Robert Scott
"Steve Cramer" <cram...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:i0j14l$64i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Top of the wrist is where the muscles and tendons live that you use to
> cock your wrist back. Even with a 45 degree feather, you may be
> aggravating those. Try unfeathered if you can. If you can't change your
> feather without buying a new paddle, try lifting your right elbow instead
> of bending your right wrist when stroking on the left.
Those top of the wrist muscles/tendons active when cocking back the wrist
seem to be the ones that were swollen. I'll be watching my form closely to
see why I'm only aggravating the ones on my right arm.
I'll try paddling with the blades unfeathered, but I'm doubting that will
have any affect on things since with the blades at 45L, I'm not making any
(conscious) wrist movement to adjust the blades as they enter the water. My
theory right now is that I'm not keeping my right wrist straight (back of
the hand in line with forearm) when paddling. I'll find out when I get out
on the water again. (I'm leaving on a five-day bicycle trip this weekend so
it will be a while. Too many hobbies, not enough time off from work!)
And speaking of the feathering thing, this week was the first time I paddled
into some high headwinds (gusts over 20MPH). Wow! The offside blade was
fluttering in the wind! I can see where a 90 deg. feather would be very
helpful in that kind of situation. My Werner paddle will adjust to 90, but
not my Aqua-Bound.
Thanks very much for everyone's input. I appreciate it.
Good paddling,
desmobob
PS- I finally picked up a handheld VHF radio for safety. I picked the
Standard Horizon HX850S -- sweet! It has DSC and built-in GPS so in an
emergency, pushing one "panic button" will broadcast your distress signal
with your GPS coordinates in digital form. The digital messages travel
farther than voice messages too, which is a plus with the already limited
range of a handheld unit. It's submersible, it floats, it's strong; 6
watts, and it has a built-in LED that can flash SOS. It's a neat piece of
gear.
watersprite
> I will note that most people think what they are doing is right for
> them, but in reality, they have a hard time spending more than two
> hours in their yak, feeling reasonably comfortable. What I've
> worked out for myself is a way to spend all day in my yak, feeling
> reasonably comfortable and I do this almost everyday now...
I'm an all day/nearly every day--and often all night--paddler as well,
and have been for the past 13 years or so. Lots of decent advice in
this thread, but I'll add a bit of my own experience...just because.
From the moment I discovered kayak (sea kayak) paddling, I've been
crazy about it, and have spent as much time as possible on the water.
I live where I do, in an ocean front home, because of my love of
paddling. Step out the door, walk across the beach, and I'm paddling
with my whale friends.
I'm a musician, so I've always been concerned with the health of my
arms/wrists/hands/fingers, and wouldn't do anything that I know would
harm those bits in any way. I may be crazy about paddling, but I'm
even more crazy about playing music! :)
Spent my first three years of paddling using an 80 degree feather, and
never had any issues with it (during all that time, my primary paddle
had only two choices; 80 degrees, or no feather). For the past 10
years, I've been using Greenland Paddles exclusively. Not because I
ever had any problems with my old "Euro" paddles, but because the
moment I discovered the GP, I fell in love with them, and their
techniques. Back to my feathered days for a moment...
I was always very aware of my techniques, so that I could get the most
out of the paddle, and at the same time, *never* injure my
wrists/hands/etc. Steve wrote:
>> Top of the wrist is where the muscles and tendons live that you use
>> to cock your wrist back. Even with a 45 degree feather, you may be
>> aggravating those.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here Steve, but if by "cock your wrist
back" you mean a "bending back" of the wrist (thereby breaking the
straight line from forearm to first knuckles of the hand), I'm afraid
that's always going to be the "wrong" technique, and perfect for
inspiring injury. Later, Steve apparently went on to offer an
alternative:
>> If you can't change your feather without buying a new paddle, try
>> lifting your right elbow instead of bending your right wrist when
>> stroking on the left.
Again, I'll try to interpret these words. By "lifting your right
elbow", I'm kind of assuming that he means the same thing that I might
call "lifting the forearm, while keeping the wrist essentially
straight and inline with the forearm" (however, keeping the elbow
low). With feathered blades, this is the technique I would recommend.
Remember...I used this technique with an 80 degree feather, and never
once experienced any pain in three years of paddling nearly every day,
for many hours per day (in often very lively coastal/open water
conditions...including heavy surf).
In terms of "arm paddling" vs. "torso rotation" (and I would add
"whole body involvement"), my vote goes for "whole body involvement".
For me, each stroke begins with the feet against the foot braces. For
instance, with the starboard blade going for the water, the stroke
movement begins with a push from the starboard foot, moves up the
leg, to the lower back, which rotates the torso (and port shoulder)
into the "pushing" arm. The largest muscles first (legs), then
back/torso, then arms/wrists/fingers. Much like the principle of a
whip. The movement is initiated at the "big end" of the whip, and as
it moves along the tapering shape, concentrates at the tip (the final
"business end", as it were). My expertise here comes from being a
dominatrix, naturally! ;) (just kidding! :)).
Yes, there is "push/pull", but I hardly ever think in terms of
"pulling". A bit of pulling comes naturally, but the primary force
in moving forward is pushing. If that's all you think about, and use
your entire body, you'll develop the most efficient--and
ergonomic--forward stroke.
Finally, a few more strongly held opinions (again, just because)...
Straight vs. bent shaft Euro paddles:
While a bent shaft may be some people's idea of the "perfect solution"
(and for some, who don't mind some restriction of versatility, it may
well be), it is just the opposite in my opinion. I'm not a fan of
first looking for a hardware solution to solve a problem of
technique; especially one that ultimately restricts one's technical
versatility. Here's where I'm going with this...
Even in my days of using a straight shaft Euro paddle, I did a fair
amount of sliding my hands along the shaft for various effects;
"changing gears", achieving various degrees of leverage, etc. From
the dramatic to the subtlest of nuances, feeling the freedom to move
one's hands along the shaft adds a great deal to one's technical
repertoire. Since discovering the wonders of the Greenland Paddle
many years ago, I've only expanded that freedom of movement, and
technical repertoire. In order to take full advantage of the bent
shaft ergonomics, there's really only one "most efficient" hand
placement for most of one's paddling. People who use bent shaft
paddles tend to hardly ever think of sliding along the shaft for
various effects, as the paddle just doesn't inspire such freedom of
movement. Therefore, ultimately, less versatility.
Though over the years I've enjoyed doing some WW and dedicated surf
paddling as well, sea kayaking has always been my primary interest
(yes, involves surf and rock garden "WW" as well, but I'm thinking
here mostly in terms of the kind of boat I use; I'm primarily a "sea
kayaker". As such, I have only one regret in all these years. Not
so much a regret that I take too seriously; just in the sense that I
wish I had been exposed to more options from the very beginning...
When I started paddling, I was put into a sea kayak, and handed a Euro
paddle. It was simply assumed that this was the "standard" equipment.
Having had the experience of both Euro and Greenland paddles over the
years now, I can say without a doubt that I wish a GP had been put
into my hands from the very beginning.
Not knowing anything about GPs to begin with, I absolutely loved my
Euro paddles, and loved the techniques I developed with them.
However, the moment I finally got a GP in my hands, I never looked
back. Ever. I find them to be so much more versatile in terms of
stroke repertoire, easier on the body in general, and as a bonus, so
much more aesthetically elegant; both in terms of techniques and just
to look at. And, no matter how high-tech materials become, there's
nothing quite so nice a holding a lovely, warm piece of wood in one's
hands. Yes, I know there are carbon GPs now as well, but still, I
prefer the wood.
Over the years, I've introduced many people to paddling; and I've
taken them from first tentative strokes to rather extreme conditions.
While I'll still give them a Euro paddle if they insist, my first
instinct is to put a GP into their hands. Lots of happy GP using sea
paddlers in my wake! :)
--
Melissa
Bill Bradshaw
rather than using your arms? I paddle by twisting my body and almost
keeping my arms stiff using very little arm muscles.
--
<Bill>
Brought to you from Anchorage, Alaska.
John Kuthe
wrote:
I saved somethtng you wrote:''''
I thoufghrt it was profoiubndL:
Posted to RBP by 'Melissa' circa 11/14/2003:
I went paddling today, and looked around at the familiar scenery.
Each time something came into view, my mind presented me with a word.
Driftwood; jellyfish; wave; seal; current; eagle; cat's paw, and so
on. Then there was the bird that I didn't know the name of, and I
thought about all the words in my mind, and about the missing word. I
liked the missing word best of all. Once again I remember...it's time
to forget. In this moment, words belong in a different world.
Even the loveliest of words can only dance around the truth of
something...or at best, walk us to the door and let us go. The irony
of me writing these very words does not escape me as I dance around
the truth of even this moment. Here I am, trying to write about how I
love it when the words fall away, and perception once again joins
breathing as an unspoken act of nature.
I went paddling today, and it took me, like so many times before, to
where nothing has a name.
:-0)
Bleesed be!
John Kuthre...
watersprite
> I saved somethtng you wrote:
I'm glad you liked that, John. While it is just one day's journal
entry years ago, it still means just as much to me every time I'm on
the water, in the mountains, playing music, etc. In fact, I still
use that little bit (one little sentence removed) in my paddling.net
profile:
http://www.paddling.net/reg/show.php?watersprite
Though no words could adequately describe, I knew if I at least tried,
my fellow paddlers might understand. :)
--
Melissa
PGP Public Key: http://tinyurl.com/2cmefzy
John Kuthe
wrote:
You are absolutely correct and I do understand. Words almost ruin the
whole experience! Better silence and a knowing smile to communicate
the experience, or more correctly the fact that one is having the
experience and wishes to communicate that fact to another.
I thought that passage you wrote describes that very well. :-)
John Kuthe...
jaybird
about it over the years, although I have stumbled to explain similar
things.
I have always felt like the still point of the uiverse when I am free
on the water, and the whole planet just rolls underneath my boat.
It's like feeling the earth breathe. If I let go of what I know to be
true, I discover what is true to be known.
Thank you for your gift, again, and John for reminding us of it.
jaybird
Robert Scott
> Moving on from the wrist problem are you paddling by twisting at your
> waist rather than using your arms?
Torso rotation... very little arm bending (at least very little while under
load).
Good paddling,
desmobob
Bill Bradshaw
arms instead of torso rotation. Torso rotation is the first thing I seem to
show people.
--
<Bill>
Brought to you from Anchorage, Alaska.
Dymphna
The harder part is training them not to bend their arms when they are
paddling. LOL
--
Dymphna
Message origin: TRAVEL.com
Steve Cramer
A really involved, informative post, my part of which I will attempt to
clarify below.
> Steve wrote:
>
>>> Top of the wrist is where the muscles and tendons live that you use
>>> to cock your wrist back. Even with a 45 degree feather, you may be
>>> aggravating those.
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong here Steve, but if by "cock your wrist
> back" you mean a "bending back" of the wrist (thereby breaking the
> straight line from forearm to first knuckles of the hand), I'm afraid
> that's always going to be the "wrong" technique, and perfect for
> inspiring injury.
To recap, the OP complained of pain on the top of his wrists, and
several folks suggested he was holding the paddle too tightly. I was
making the point that tight grip doesn't cause pain on top of one's
wrist. I left to the reader's inference that if you have pain there, you
must be cocking your wrists back and should stop it.
> Later, Steve apparently went on to offer an
> alternative:
>
>>> If you can't change your feather without buying a new paddle, try
>>> lifting your right elbow instead of bending your right wrist when
>>> stroking on the left.
>
> Again, I'll try to interpret these words. By "lifting your right
> elbow", I'm kind of assuming that he means the same thing that I might
> call "lifting the forearm, while keeping the wrist essentially
> straight and inline with the forearm" (however, keeping the elbow
> low).
Right, the keeping the wrist straight is the important part. I think
about lifting my elbow in the Brent Reitz "chicken wing" maneuver, but
whatever works is good.
> In terms of "arm paddling" vs. "torso rotation" (and I would add
> "whole body involvement"), my vote goes for "whole body involvement".
Amen.
> For me, each stroke begins with the feet against the foot braces. For
> instance, with the starboard blade going for the water, the stroke
> movement begins with a push from the starboard foot, moves up the
> leg, to the lower back, which rotates the torso (and port shoulder)
> into the "pushing" arm.
I push better if my elbow is not too low, but aside from that, amen again.
> My expertise here comes from being a
> dominatrix, naturally! ;) (just kidding! :)).
Yeah, right. ;)
> Yes, there is "push/pull", but I hardly ever think in terms of
> "pulling". A bit of pulling comes naturally, but the primary force
> in moving forward is pushing. If that's all you think about, and use
> your entire body, you'll develop the most efficient--and
> ergonomic--forward stroke.
Interesting concept. I need to play with that some.
>
> Finally, a few more strongly held opinions (again, just because)...
>
> Straight vs. bent shaft Euro paddles:
I've always felt that bent shaft Euro paddles are the answer to a
question I've never asked. And the GP is nice for touring, but I like a
straight-shaft Euro paddle for WW and surfing.
Steve
Steve Cramer
> The harder part is training them not to bend their arms when they are
> paddling. LOL
I stole Roger Schumann's Power Boxes idea for my students. Cut the top
and bottom out of 2 OJ cartons and slip them over the elbows. Cuts down
on arm-bending dramatically.
Steve
watersprite
You wrote:
> I have always felt like the still point of the uiverse when I am
> free on the water, and the whole planet just rolls underneath my
> boat. It's like feeling the earth breathe. If I let go of what I
> know to be true, I discover what is true to be known.
Well said. While I'm often happy enough to engage in long-winded
technical drivel (as seen here and in other threads), I'm even more
interested in how people live with--and sometimes find ways to
express--their "inner paddling". Just as with music, technique is
something we learn so that we can use it, transcend it, and "return"
to where the experience actually lives; where perception breathes,
and nothing has a name. :)