Mohawk Canoes?
Joe H. Miller, II
Has anyone had any experience paddling Mohawk canoes? Specifically, I'm
interested in the Nova 17 or the Intrepid 17. I'm curious which layup is
better - Royalex or R-84 Light.
Thanks
Jody
John Steib
Joe H. Miller, II <mil...@snowhill.com> wrote in article
<35834...@news.snowhill.com>...
> Has anyone had any experience paddling Mohawk canoes? Specifically, I'm
> interested in the Nova 17 or the Intrepid 17. I'm curious which layup is
> better - Royalex or R-84 Light.
>
> Thanks
> Jody
>
Jody :
I haven't paddled the tandems, but do have a Solo 13 and enjoy it. My
understanding is that the R-84 light is a thinner form of royalex. It makes
a lighter weight canoe, but is less rugged. Hope this helps.
Floatin,
John
Steven Robertson
layup is
>> better - Royalex or R-84 Light.
>Jody :
> I haven't paddled the tandems, but do have a Solo 13 and enjoy it. My
>understanding is that the R-84 light is a thinner form of royalex. It makes
>a lighter weight canoe, but is less rugged.
John,
This is true. The tradeoff is more than just less weight, R-84 is not
nearly as durable as Royalex. It is my understanding that R-84 is NOT
Royalex. It is similar but a layer of plastic is used (I'm not sure if its
on the inside or outside, common sense would dictate inside) and it tends to
crease and has more of a memory than Royalex, or so I've been told.
Therefore, a boatmade with R-84 would have a much shorter lifespan than one
with Royalex. If I'm paddling a boat full of water through a rapid I want to
be SURE the hull material will be durable enough to withstand any hits it
takes, including broaching and pinning.
Personally, I would stick with the heavier Royalex unless I planned to
paddle I-II exclusively and didn't have any trouble with scraping in the
rivers I planned to use it on.
Hope this helped,
Dog:)
Miktb
Joe,
I have a Nova 17 in R-84. I have had it for 2 years and have done a lot of
racing and tripping in PA and WVa since I bought it. Most of the rivers I take
it on are relatively shallow, have lots of rocks, and are generally flat or at
most easy class II. I just recently completed a 55 mile run on the West Branch
of the Susquehanna with my wife. The boat was loaded up with gear and food. I
had no problems whatsoever. I really like the Nova 17. I took out the stock
seats and put in front and back tractor seat sliders. It is a fast boat and
the R-84 makes it light enough to handle fairly easily. I've owned lots of ABS
solo and tandem boats over the years and this was my first R-84. It is holding
up just fine and believe me, in racing we hit a LOT of rocks (but hey, we're
working on that). When we are really cranking in a race I notice some mild
oilcanning, but I've seen that in regular ABS also. I'm not sure that I would
want R-84 in a serious whitewater OC-1 or OC-2 but for a tandem tripping and
general purpose boat I think it is just fine. Let's face it: If you take a 17'
Nova down anything more difficult than class II+ R-84 is going to be the least
of your problems.
Bottom line: I love the boat and I would buy it in R-84 if I had to do it
again.
Hope this helps-Mike Burk
John Steib
Steven :
Thanks for the info on R-84 light vs. Royalex. I agree with the
opinion, in which you wrote:
> Therefore, a boatmade with R-84 would have a much shorter lifespan than
one
> with Royalex. If I'm paddling a boat full of water through a rapid I want
to
> be SURE the hull material will be durable enough to withstand any hits it
> takes, including broaching and pinning.
I would add that, the models mentioned in the original post and the Solo 13
are all flatwater hulls. It is possible to get some WW Mohawks in R-84, but
these are made for rodeo or expert use only. I agree with you, the WW R-84
is not for the average boater, but does have a legitimate place in the
market depending on skill level.
Floatin,
John
j-ss...@worldnet.att.net
Matthew J Sullivan
Like John above, I also have a Mohawk Solo 13. I've noticed that it
"bubbles up" under my feet, which is what I think Mitkb called
"oil-canning". I've taken the boat on at least a couple of multi-night
river trips (including 6 nights in Big Bend's Lower Canyons), and it seems
that the bubbling gets worse when I've loaded the boat up at bow and stern
with gear.
But I do really like the boat.
-Matt
Brad Snow
Gee, after reading Dog:)'s post, I'm wondering if my Mohawk is made of R-84!
It had great "memory", bruises easily, and I'm down to the green on most of
my bottom after only one season's paddling!
Brad Snow
fsb...@aurora.alaska.edu
Mohawk Canoes
In article <6m09gm$64u$1...@news-in.anc.net>, "Steven Robertson" <d...@arkansas.net> says:
>
>Joe H. Miller, II <mil...@snowhill.com> wrote in article
>><35834...@news.snowhill.com>...
>>> Has anyone had any experience paddling Mohawk canoes? I'm curious which
>layup is
>>> better - Royalex or R-84 Light.
>John Steib wrote in message:
>>Jody :
>> I haven't paddled the tandems, but do have a Solo 13 and enjoy it. My
>>understanding is that the R-84 light is a thinner form of royalex. It makes
>>a lighter weight canoe, but is less rugged.
>>John
>
>John,
> This is true. The tradeoff is more than just less weight, R-84 is not
>nearly as durable as Royalex. It is my understanding that R-84 is NOT
>Royalex. It is similar but a layer of plastic is used (I'm not sure if its
>on the inside or outside, common sense would dictate inside) and it tends to
>crease and has more of a memory than Royalex, or so I've been told.
>with Royalex. If I'm paddling a boat full of water through a rapid I want to
>be SURE the hull material will be durable enough to withstand any hits it
>takes, including broaching and pinning.
>paddle I-II exclusively and didn't have any trouble with scraping in the
>rivers I planned to use it on.
>Hope this helped,
>Dog:)
>
>
skin of vinyl and Royalite has an outer skin of R-84. Outer layers of
abs substrates may vary per model. They both have the same foam core,
inner layer of substrates and vinyl interior skin. For a better discription
and a drawing see our web site "mohawkcanoes.com" and go to the "info zone" page.
Craig @ Mohawk (the horse's mouth)
Steven Robertson
Brad, that's just the way Mohawks are:) I took a brand-new Probe to Co. and
portaged a couple of rapids via extinct railroad tramway on the lower end of
Bailey's Canyon on the North Fork of the South Platte and was rewarded with
the same view as yours. I received a VERY hard time from my buddies who
paddled Dagger and MRC. What could I say? The proof was inescapable. That
was my last Mohawk(after three) My opinion in a nutshell - great designs but
the quality ends there. Any comments from the Horse's mouth?
Brad Snow wrote in message <6m2j4i$ndb$1...@news.alaska.edu>...
Fross3
Joe,
I also am looking at Mohawk's Nova and Intrepid except in the 16 foot
models. I plan to use my canoe with my 11 year old son on rivers such as the
Chattahoochee, Sect II of the Chaattooga, the Tacoa etc. mainly to fly fish but
also for "adventure."
I've been using an old Mohawk glass boat. I am told its a Blazer. It is
fast, fragile and not too manuverable when the water starts to get fast.
There's alot of bare glass showing at the ends and along the bottom.
An outfitter outside Athens, GA (a Mohawk dealer) suggested that the Nova
would be the right boat for my son and me. Since I will be handling the boat
(on land) mostly by myself, he strongly suggested R-84 saying that what I loose
in durability I can make up for with kevlar keel guards which he suggested be
applied with a two part polyetthylene cement available from of all places, Old
Town.
I would be interested in hearing what you have been told.
Rick Ross
RickPB
In article <6mch00$q2q$1...@news-in.anc.net>, "Steven Robertson"
<d...@arkansas.net> writes:
>Brad, that's just the way Mohawks are:) I took a brand-new Probe to Co. and
>portaged a couple of rapids via extinct railroad tramway on the lower end of
>Bailey's Canyon on the North Fork of the South Platte and was rewarded with
>the same view as yours. I received a VERY hard time from my buddies who
>paddled Dagger and MRC. What could I say? The proof was inescapable. That
>was my last Mohawk(after three) My opinion in a nutshell - great designs but
>the quality ends there. Any comments from the Horse's mouth?
I'm not the horse's mouth but I have a Mohawk XL-11 that I've paddled for
several years now and it is holding up nicely. I recently paddled a couple of
Daggers looking for a faster boat, but while they were nice I didn't notice any
big difference in quality. Last year I paddled in a whitewater clinic in a
borrowed ancient tandem XL-13 and while the homemade outfitting was rough the
hull was in good shape for a boat that has seen more whitewater than most.
Rick Bloom
Peter Staehling
>Brad, that's just the way Mohawks are:) I took a brand-new Probe to Co. and
>portaged a couple of rapids via extinct railroad tramway on the lower end of
>Bailey's Canyon on the North Fork of the South Platte and was rewarded with
>the same view as yours. I received a VERY hard time from my buddies who
>paddled Dagger and MRC. What could I say? The proof was inescapable.
Do you mean you dragged it over the portage? How far? What kind of
surface? Did your buddies give their boats the same treatment? I
had always assumed Mohawk to be more or less equal to Dagger in
durability. I had heard that Mad River boats held up a little better,
but never really believed it. I just figured that the hull layup was
pretty much the same with all of them.
Just Curious,
Pete
Mohawk Canoes
In article <6mch00$q2q$1...@news-in.anc.net>, "Steven Robertson" <d...@arkansas.net> says:
>
>Brad, that's just the way Mohawks are:) I took a brand-new Probe to Co. and
>portaged a couple of rapids via extinct railroad tramway on the lower end of
>Bailey's Canyon on the North Fork of the South Platte and was rewarded with
>the same view as yours. I received a VERY hard time from my buddies who
>was my last Mohawk(after three) My opinion in a nutshell - great designs but
>the quality ends there. Any comments from the Horse's mouth?
>>Gee, after reading Dog:)'s post, I'm wondering if my Mohawk is made of
>R-84!
>>It had great "memory", bruises easily, and I'm down to the green on most of
>>my bottom after only one season's paddling!
>>
>>Brad Snow
>>fsb...@aurora.alaska.edu
>>
>>
>
>
formally part of the old Uniroyal Tire Co. The outside skin on Royalex is vinyl.
The thickest vinyl skin Uniroyal makes is .025 thick. the same skin is used on all
royalex sheets used to make royalex canoes. No canoe manufacturer can get a thicker or more
durable skin. Some paddlers have told us that our royalex canoes wear better than our
competition. Other paddlers have said our competitions wear better. Still others have told
us our older boats wore better.
As you can see, these opinions are not consistent. What accounts for these inconsistencies?
We do not know for sure. However, the following are some factors that may affect the rate
at which canoes wear:
1. The age of the canoe.
2. The length of time the canoe has been exposed to the sun. Exposure to the sun over a
length of time appears to make the vinyl harder and more abrasion resistant.
3. The amount of abrasion the boat is subject to.
4. Variations in the vinyl used by Uniroyal.
5. The shape of the canoe.
You can find more information on our web site @ mohawkcanoes.com
MOHAWK CANOES,
Darrell Leidigh Pres.
Byron Funnell
Mohawk Canoes wrote:
> Only one company makes or has ever made Royalex or R-84 Royalite, Uniroyal Technology,
> formally part of the old Uniroyal Tire Co. The outside skin on Royalex is vinyl.
> The thickest vinyl skin Uniroyal makes is .025 thick. the same skin is used on all
> royalex sheets used to make royalex canoes. No canoe manufacturer can get a thicker or more
> durable skin. Some paddlers have told us that our royalex canoes wear better than our
> competition. Other paddlers have said our competitions wear better. Still others have told
> us our older boats wore better.
> As you can see, these opinions are not consistent. What accounts for these inconsistencies?
> We do not know for sure. However, the following are some factors that may affect the rate
> at which canoes wear:
>
> 1. The age of the canoe.
> 2. The length of time the canoe has been exposed to the sun. Exposure to the sun over a
> length of time appears to make the vinyl harder and more abrasion resistant.
> 3. The amount of abrasion the boat is subject to.
> 4. Variations in the vinyl used by Uniroyal.
> 5. The shape of the canoe.
My understanding is that there are two other factors here. Each boat
manufacturer can request the core layup to be different for varying
models of boats. This enables the ABS and or foam core to be heavier in
high wear or stress areas.
Second, is that the old ABS was harder. Regulations have required
modificatons to the formulation of newer plastics (ABS). As it was
explained to me, the chemicals used in older boats allowed for a harder
material. Kind of like the dash boards of cars. Ever noticed that film
on the inside of the car, especially on the inside of the windshield?
That is caused by the leaching of some of the plastic. It becomes
airborne and sticks to the windshield where it makes it look blurry.
Also noticed that newer cars don't do that nearly as much as the older
ones? These hardeners that leach out are the same things now missing in
the newer formulations of ABS. Sorry, I am ignorant on how this actually
works.
I do agree that the shape of the boats plays a big difference. I have
two Mohowk Vipers and a couple Dagger Encores. The Vipers are wearing
more than the Encores, but I think it is due to the type of paddling
they see and the shapes of the hulls. I would guess that an Ocoee by
Dagger would wear in a pattern much like the Vipers and the Encores more
like the Mohawk XLs. Seeing the wear patterns of Mr. Hoppley's Ocoees
compared to my Vipers would back that up.
With all of that in mind, I would go out and buy another Viper if
getting another OC-1.
Byron
--
Byron Funnell - The CADMaker
e-mail: cadm...@fortwayne.infi.net
http://www.cadmaker.com
http://www.vinelife.org
Oci-One Kanubi
fro...@aol.com (Fross3) typed:
> [snip] he strongly suggested R-84 saying that what I loose
> in durability I can make up for with kevlar keel guards
> which he suggested be applied with a two part polyetthylene
> cement available from of all places, Old Town.
For your application, R-84 should be fully satisfactory, as long as you
*carry* the boat on land, rather than dragging it. Don't even think
about putting bang plates on the boat until it needs it though; they
will add weight and reduce the boat's hydrodynamics needlessly. When
you wear through the outer skin of the R-84 is soon enough to apply ythe
plates, probably years from now.
--
Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always.
OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265
Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers' Ass'n,
Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak
Ass'n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass'n, ACA, and AWA
Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address
Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon.
Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rzaz...@mcimail.com
In article <6mm3g6$7p4$1...@comet3.magicnet.net>,
moh...@magicnet.net (Mohawk Canoes) wrote:
>
> In article <6mch00$q2q$1...@news-in.anc.net>, "Steven Robertson"
<d...@arkansas.net> says:
> >
> >Brad, that's just the way Mohawks are:) I took a brand-new Probe to Co. and
> >portaged a couple of rapids via extinct railroad tramway on the lower end of
> >Bailey's Canyon on the North Fork of the South Platte and was rewarded with
> >the same view as yours. I received a VERY hard time from my buddies who
> >paddled Dagger and MRC. What could I say? The proof was inescapable. That
> >was my last Mohawk(after three) My opinion in a nutshell - great designs but
> >the quality ends there. Any comments from the Horse's mouth?
> >Brad Snow wrote in message <6m2j4i$ndb$1...@news.alaska.edu>...
> >>Gee, after reading Dog:)'s post, I'm wondering if my Mohawk is made of
> >R-84!
> >>It had great "memory", bruises easily, and I'm down to the green on most of
> >>my bottom after only one season's paddling!
> >>
> >>Brad Snow
> >>fsb...@aurora.alaska.edu
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> MOHAWK CANOES,
> Darrell Leidigh Pres.
>
I have a Mohawk Probe 14 that I paddle solo. After 1 FULL season of agressive
paddling in the North Easts technical rocky runs. I too have seen my green
ABS layer show up on the high wear area's under the saddle, bow & stern, and
the chines very quickly. I've paddled a used M.E. as aggressively and did not
see anywhere this amount of wear after two FULL seasons. I believe that
Royalex has to cure and harden (set-up) to wear properly. I maintain a fleet
of fourty boats for my club, the older Royalex hulls from tend to wear the
best. I have some newer Dagger hulls that the vinyl is delaminating off of
like contact shelving vinyl. Some newer Mad River boats are oil canning so
badly that cores are delaminating. I have E-Mail'd Darrel at Mohawk about my
Probe's premature wear, asking for suggestions (tried & un-tried) but to date
no answers........Hmmmmm Seems like they stand behind what they sell !
Bottom line I would let a new boat age a season before heavy use (Vinyl seems
to be suspect, more than the ABS). I would NOT let the sun cure my boat,
especially if the vinyl has worn away exposing the ABS which would become UV
brittle over time.
SYOTR,
Bob Z.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Fross3
Richard thanks for your wisdom. Are you familiar with the Mohak Nova or
Intrepid?
Oci-One Kanubi
Fross3 wrote:
>
> Richard thanks for your wisdom. Are you
> familiar with the Mohak Nova or Intrepid?
Not really; I have been boycotting Mohawk boats for the last five years,
because I do not approve of their direct-marketing strategy, which
bypasses the local retailer. I like to have a strong local retailer
where I can go to buy odds and ends of outfitting, repair materials, and
personal gear when I need it, and not have to order by mail.
If the rumor is true, however, that Dagger has been purchased by an
outfit with the Coleman Corporation mentality, my next boat might be a
Mohawk Viper; I'll just have to see what effect this new merger has on
Dagger design and quality.
I saw a couple on the river Saturday boating very effectively in a
Mohawk Nova 16, which is a modernized version of the only Mohawk I ever
owned, a good tandem boat called the Whitewater 16, so I guess I could
speak well of the Nova, but from miniscule experience.