Dagger Encore vs. Mohawk XL13?
Richard Ferguson
the local club email list, and a couple of emails came back. One
offered a Mohawk XL13 for $600, said it was outfitted and in like new
condition. Another said he had an Encore he was not using, but did not
mention a price.
My impression is the following: The XL13 is a beginner whitewater boat,
but would probably work OK for tripping. The XL13 presumably would be a
noticeably better whitewater boat than my Camper, but not as nice as an
Outrage X or Prodigy X. The Encore is a classic solo whitewater boat,
probably an older design. I think that the Encore is around 13 feet
long, although the info on the web is limited and contradictory.
Not sure if any other boats will pop up. The XL13 is a good deal, if it
is in good condition, but I wanted a little more boat.
Richard
--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals
Grip
a couple of XL-13's. It is a great first timers WW boat, but alot of people
keep them, also paddled an OutrageX a few times. It was lighter, and handled
very well, but I really like the XL......
"Richard Ferguson" <fergusonOM...@omitthisatt.net> wrote in message
news:0Vu9h.344863$QZ1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Steve Cramer
years old for $600 doesn't sound like much of a bargain. If the entire
trip is Class II-III, the XL13 might be reasonable, but it's quite slow
and displaces a lot of water.
--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA
Mothra
These were both whitewater designs from the early 1990s. The Encore
was the "hot" boat back then - the one used by "expert" paddlers, and
is still a loved and revered design. The XL13 was the beginner boat.
The XL13 would probably make the better tripping boat.
Richard Ferguson
boat offers, listed below. I will go see the Encore tomorrow, probably
the best deal, depending on what he wants for it. I will probably offer
$300. If I don't like the Encore, the XL13 sounds like the next best
deal, due to condition. Some of the boats offered to me are clearly
unsuitable or overpriced.
Dagger Encore - 13.2 feet, classic solo whitewater boat, Jeff in
Boulder. Has a black plastic saddle, never mounted. He paid $500 for
it, would take less.
Mohawk XL13 - beginner whitewater boat, new condition, rigged, for $600.
John in Denver.
Wenonah Rendevous Kevlar - $1400, too much money.
Ocoee - too radical
Old Town H2Pro - Fran in Steamboat.
Dagger Impulse - 12’ 8”, mixed reviews. $550, Gail, needs new flotation
bags.
Blue Hole - model unknown, 15 or 16 feet long $600-700,
Mothra
tripping. It's kind of a "mix" between the XL13 and the Encore. More
nimble in handling than the XL and will carry a huge payload. Grab
this boat if you can get it.
Also, if the "Blue Hole" is a solo canoe, it's probably the Sunburst
I've been raving about and would be PERFECT for whitewater tripping.
Blue Hole is an absolute classic!
Larry C
I'll have to disagree with that statement. Both boats were developed
around the same time and the performance of both boats are very
similar. The XL13 is slower but has better secondary stability and was
always my choice of OC1's for big water. The Encore is a bit faster and
a bit narrower in the mid section, which made offside strokes a hair
easier. It is a wetter boat that the XL13, but not by much. The
carrying capacity of both boats would be nearly identical.
Even the Impulse was not a huge improvement on either boat.
The XL13 became a beginner boat because Mohawk continued to make this
boat well into the era of the much shorter and harder chined boats like
the Ocoee and Viper.
BTW, both boats were being made before 1990.
Larry
Richard Ferguson
right now with a kneeling thwart. The boat is 13' 2" long and 32 inches
wide, I estimate 6 inches of rocker.
He threw in a Perception black plastic saddle, not installed. I was
originally skeptical about it, but I like the tractor seat on the back,
like the idea of being able to change positions from kneeling to
sitting, which I can do with my current boat. So I may install the
Perception, but I am going to take my time thinking about it.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
Richard
Steve Cramer
> I bought the Encore for $450 with good air bags. The boat is set up
> right now with a kneeling thwart. The boat is 13' 2" long and 32 inches
> wide, I estimate 6 inches of rocker.
Congratulations. Hope you enjoy it.
> He threw in a Perception black plastic saddle, not installed. I was
> originally skeptical about it, but I like the tractor seat on the back,
> like the idea of being able to change positions from kneeling to
> sitting, which I can do with my current boat. So I may install the
> Perception, but I am going to take my time thinking about it.
Check the stability of the tractor seat before you commit to it, i.e.,
drill more holes. I have one in my Viper 12 and it's only useable in
very flat water.
Grip
"Richard Ferguson" <fergusonOM...@omitthisatt.net> wrote in message
news:lr0ah.103964$Fi1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Larry C
whitewater, it was just a place to stretch out on the calm sections. I
had the perception saddle in my original WW canoe, a 16' Mohawk
Whitewater, their version of the OCA, and later in an XL13. It was the
best setup for whitewater of any other arrangements that I tried later
and it's only downfall is that it was one heavy SOB. The only other
arrangement that even comes close is the foam saddles used in the
pyrana canoes.
BTW, it was the only arrangement that I had in a canoe that I ever
achieved much of a roll using.
On Nov 25, 4:10 pm, Steve Cramer <cramer...@charter.net> wrote:
> Richard Ferguson wrote:
> > I bought the Encore for $450 with good air bags. The boat is set up
> > right now with a kneeling thwart. The boat is 13' 2" long and 32 inches
> > wide, I estimate 6 inches of rocker.Congratulations. Hope you enjoy it.
>
> > He threw in a Perception black plastic saddle, not installed. I was
> > originally skeptical about it, but I like the tractor seat on the back,
> > like the idea of being able to change positions from kneeling to
> > sitting, which I can do with my current boat. So I may install the
> > Perception, but I am going to take my time thinking about it.Check the stability of the tractor seat before you commit to it, i.e.,
Mothra
to the canoe bottom - it should float freely. Nolan Whitesell who
outfitted 2 of my canoes told me this. The saddle mounts on thwarts
and you put as much foam as you need (glued to the saddle only - not
the canoe bottom) to have a firm mount. Nolan told me that perception
saddles mounted to boat bottoms caused undue wear and tear. These
saddles do give you lots of support for learning your roll and being
able to store stuff inside is a bonus. Congrats on your selection, and
good luck with the outfitting.
Oci-One Kanubi
remember removing all the thwarts and lasso-ing it with a running
bight, tightening the bight until I pulled in the gunwhales 3 or 4",
then cutting down the thwarts and replacing them. Gee-zeus, it was my
first boat, so I had nothing to compare it to, so I have no idea
whether that improved the performance or degraded it! But I thought it
was a cool idea, and it did make cross-strokes much easier.
I cannot remember whether my first Perception saddle was on that boat
or on the Dagger Genesis that replaced it, but for a while I loved that
Perception saddle. Like Larry, I learned to roll in a canoe with a
Perception saddle (the Genesis).
Three things to consider about the Perception saddle:
1) The dry storage compartment isn't dry; it's not water-*proof*, but
water-*resistant*. If you really *must* install the Perception saddle
(see below) get a couple of drybags that will fit through the hatch,
for anything you need to stow that really must be kept dry.
2) You really want to use a boat outfitted this way only on water that
is almost a full class easier than your personnal skills. If yer a
Class IV canoeist, it will do you fine on Class III and maybe on III+,
but it will be tricky on Class IV. Likewise if you're a Class III
boater you will have a harder time than usual on solid Class III
rapids. This is because the "wings" of the saddle force your knees
toward the center of the boat, whereas (as with any athletic pursuit)
for optimum performance and balance you need to maintain as wide a
stance as possible.
3) It's a heavy monkey-finger. It always seemed particularly wonderful
to me that you could just leap out so quickly and easily to help a
friend in trouble, or just jump in in turbulent water without having to
diddle around with thigh straps, but that problem has been solved. Now
I use Mike Yee outfitting: a lightweight foam saddle and thigh-straps
suspended by 1/16" bungie cord, which holds the thigh straps open so I
can jump in almost as quickly as with the Perception. And the foam
saddle is 6 or 7 pounds lighter than the Perception.
Since I am so old now, I do everything I can to keep the weight of my
boats down, including paying an extra couple-100$ for wood gunwhales to
save 4 or 5 pounds, so the idea of putting in a Perception saddle makes
me shudder (aside from the fact that I often paddle water that is too
hard for me, so I really *need* the control I get fby keeping my knees
spread wide.
-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
======================================================================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
======================================================================
cram...@gmail.com
have a couple of flatwater swims to show for that.
On Nov 26, 11:24 am, "Larry C" <lrca...@aol.com> wrote:
> I don't think that the tractor seat was ever meant to be used in
> whitewater, it was just a place to stretch out on the calm sections.
>
Carey Robson
except for his curious sense of grading.
sincerely,
Carey Robson
www.CanoeBC.ca
"Oci-One Kanubi" <rho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1164642852....@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Larry C
made out of this stuff called fiberlite, which I promptly destroyed the
bottom on when I started running easy whitewater. I then switched up to
an 15' Alumcraft canoe and ran easy whitewater in it for several years
before switching to what was then pretty new technology, ABS canoes.
> > Sculptures in copper and other metals- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Mothra
keep his handlebar mustache dry! He did exceptionally well in that
boat, even taking it down the Dry Fork of the Cheat at a beefy level.
padeen
back from the Encore. It was Dagger's attempt to placate the beginner
boater who would flip the Encore trying to get in the thing. For an
experienced OC1er the Encore was (and still is) a far superior hull to the
Impulse. Both the Impulse, and its larger partner in crime, the Genesis
(though the first canoe I ever rolled, I have no respect for its slug-like
qualities) were beginner-only boats (if you think it wise to give a kid dull
scissors if you hope he'll grow up to be a tailor).
Richard, just because the Encore was "an earlier design", don't discount it.
Dagger regularly dropped their better hulls for something newer and "more
stable", such as their High Noon kayak series for the GX kayaks, which were
dumbed down and nowhere near as playful as the HNs, but were easier for
beginner paddlers to feel comfortable in right away. Whatever sells is not
necessarily what makes a good boat. Dagger didn't remedy their lack of good
OC1s until the Rival and Ocoee Meanwhile, Mad River corked them with the
Outrage, a fine class III/IV canoe, despite that damn Mad River logo, and
MR's plastic cracking in the cold.
The XL-13 was always far behind in solo whitewater qualities to even the
Genesis, which Mohawk corrected when they produced the Viper. It had no
edge, little rocker, too shallow, and was too wide for quick offside x-bow
jabs. It could make a good class II solo tripper, but for empty play, I'd
leave it in the weeds.
Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza
"Larry C" <lrc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1164460666.7...@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
padeen
designed as this one. I was pissed off at OT for such a screw-up for years,
until they produced the best 16' canoe ever made, the Appalachian. But,
can't get them all right.
The BH Sunburst is a rare duck, and not worth considering as the royalex
shrinkage during molding, like the early OT Tripper, put the gunwales too
near the waterline, but its newer brother, the Sunburst II is another
matter. It's long for solo ww by today's standards, but as a long-distance
tripping boat, or as a class III/IV tandem craft, it's a keeper. Most are
rather worn by now as it was the ONLY solo ww canoe on the market for a few
years, until the Mad River ME was produced, and lots of now old geezers (no
fingers, please) cut their teeth, and their bottoms, on this classic.
Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza
"Mothra" <kstre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1164420899.6...@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
padeen
about sinking the Perception saddle; too heavy, too narrow, too hard to get
tight enough to do the hard stuff. Now you just need a bit of warmer water
and lots of patience to learn to DRIVE that baby. Good Luck
Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza
"Richard Ferguson" <fergusonOM...@omitthisatt.net> wrote in message
news:lr0ah.103964$Fi1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Oci-One Kanubi
The interesting thing about "Dagger didn't remedy their lack of good
OC1s until the Rival..." is that both the Genesis and the Rival were
designed by Bob Foote. The third (in temporal order) of his designs I
am familiar with was the Phantom, and it was awful. The fourth is my
present boat, the Bell Prodigy (mine is an "X"), and it is the best
whitewater canoe I've ever paddled. Seems like Foote alternates great
boats (Rival, Prodigy) with dogs (Genesis, Phantom). I might tend to
avoid his next design!
How 'bout starting a new thread telling us where you are now, and how
you got there?
-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
======================================================================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
======================================================================
padeen
Very glad to hear you're still upgrading and running rivers. The Prodigy
looks great; would love to try one sometime. Did you ever try an Esquif?
They've made a big push for the market but I haven't heard about one from
anyone whose opinion I'd respect. Is Kelly still paddling?
I've been out of my kayak for a few years now, with the exception of a few
days in the upper Gulkana canyon this last August, and that felt really
lousy as I didn't have the time I needed to get my edge back. I've been
living on Aldonza, a 38' 1978 Hans Christian cutter I bought last October
(2005) in the Port Townsend, Washington area, working on her systems and
accutriments for the planned route south next summer. I'd originally
planned to leave this fall but didn't get everything done, and I'm in no
real hurry. As a bonus I hope to spend the spring and early summer on a
trip to Alaska via the inland passage along the BC coast.
This winter I'll spend Christmas at my sister's in Steamboat Springs,
Colorado, after the New Year in Arizona for a week, then on to Louisiana to
do a month of volunteer work for Katrina rehab before returning to Port
Townsend. Doubt I'll take my kayak as the skiing is great in Steamboat, but
I'll try to find some way of getting on the flat water in Louisiana.
Still riding your cycle?
Brad Snow
s/v Aldonza
"Oci-One Kanubi" <rho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1164898763.9...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...