The Best Whitewater Canoe
Steve
I'm thinking of progressing to whitewater canoeing, and would like to
hear your opinions on what kind to buy. Thanks in advance for any
advice.
--Steve.
Randy Cole
I've had my Old Town Appalachian for 3 years now and am very happy with it.
It works great in tandem and I frequently paddle it solo (backwards). The
only problem that I have had is paddling solo on a windy day. Otherwise,
it handles whitewater (III) well and is easy to control.
Steve <musgrove@*NoAuto*mantech-wva.com> wrote in article
<5mhpfs$1...@crack.usaor.net>...
Oci-One Kanubi
Steve <musgrove@*NoAuto*mantech-wva.com> typed:
>
> I'm thinking of progressing to whitewater canoeing, and would like to
> hear your opinions on what kind to buy. Thanks in advance for any
> advice.
I'd say you can't do better than Dagger Canoes. I have two Ocoees, a
Rival, and a Cascade (C-1). The Rival is probably the best all-'round
boat. If you are much over 200 pounds consider a Genesis. If you are
into Rodeo or steep creeking (and are prepared for a steep learning
curve in a high-performance hull) get an Ocoee. If you want a stable
and forgiving boat designed for beginners, get an Ovation, but expect to
outgrow it after 50 or 100 river trips.
Otherwise, if you don't mind being unfashionable, I think the Whitesell
(Piranha or Descender) is still a great boat, though I've never paddled
one myself. I've seen people in the Whitesell (and other big boats like
the Mad River ME) come through steep rapids dry, where my Ocoee wound up
full of water. I'm just outfitting my new Rival now (I had one before I
got my first Ocoee and loved it) and I'm hoping that with the high-
volume, rounded bow it will come up dryer in the steeps than the Ocoee
does.
--
-Richard Hopley, OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA
To reply to me by eMail, delete the characters "NoSpam."
from my address as it appears in the message header.
David Bussey
Steve wrote:
>
> I'm thinking of progressing to whitewater canoeing, and would like to
> hear your opinions on what kind to buy. Thanks in advance for any
> advice.
Steve,
You'll probably get a lot of opinions on this, my opinions are biased by
the boats that I've owned (Dagger Genesis & Mohawk Viper 12). The best
boat for _you_ will depend mostly on your size (I arbitrarily use 185
pounds as a dividing line) and what style of paddling you're going to
do.
If your intent is to run straight down the river with little or no
playing and catching eddys only when critical, consider one of the big
forgiving boats like the Whitesell Piranha (Descender for under 185) or
Bluehole Sunburst II.
If you intend to do a lot of playing or to really work the rapids, more
responsive, but much less forgiving boats to consider are the Dagger
Ocoee and Mohawk Viper 11 (under 185); or Mohawk Viper 12 (over 185).
For a fairly good combination of forgiveness and maneuverability, good
boats are the Mohawk Probes, Dagger Genesis (over 185), Dagger Rival
(under 185), and maybe the Mad River Outrage (under 185).
Unfortunately, Dagger has (booo, hiss!) chosen to discontinue the
Genesis, so it may be a difficult boat to find new.
I recommend that you avoid boats that you will probably quickly outgrow
such as the Dagger Ovation, Dagger Impulse, or Mad River Rampage.
Of course you should try as many different boats as possible to form
your own opinion before you buy. All of the above assumes that you're
looking at _solo_ canoes, if otherwise, nevermind.
- DB
Steve Cramer
David Bussey wrote:
>
> If your intent is to run straight down the river with little or no
> playing and catching eddys only when critical, consider one of the big
> forgiving boats like the Whitesell Piranha (Descender for under 185) or
> Bluehole Sunburst II.
I weigh 185, so will comment on your dividing line, among other things.
I know a number of people around here who would consider the Whitesells
quite playful. They are certainly _very_ forgiving. The Descender is
high volume and over 13' long. It would not be overloaded at 200+.
> If you intend to do a lot of playing or to really work the rapids, more
> responsive, but much less forgiving boats to consider are the Dagger
> Ocoee and Mohawk Viper 11 (under 185); or Mohawk Viper 12 (over 185).
I paddle a Viper 12, and don't feel I'm overloading it. However, I would
never recommend it as a beginner boat. It's hard to get better when you
spend most of your time in the water, which I think would happen with
beginners in Ocoees or Vipers. I snipped the part where you mentioned
Probes and Rivals, but I would suggest them as good starters.
>
> Of course you should try as many different boats as possible to form
> your own opinion before you buy.
Definitely agree here. One of the benefits of joining a paddling club is
that people are usually willing to let you try out their boats on club
trips. You can find out a lot about what you want/don't want doing that.
Also, I have found it hard to lose much money buying used boats and
reselling them after a couple of years, so mistakes may not be terribly
expensive.
Steve
--
Steve Cramer Sometimes, you never can
Test Scoring & Reporting Svcs always tell what you least
University of Georgia expect the most.
Athens, GA 30602-5593
***Please note new address. Moe passed away***
Chip Mefford
Steve wrote:
>
> I'm thinking of progressing to whitewater canoeing, and would like to
> hear your opinions on what kind to buy. Thanks in advance for any
> advice.
>
The Best Whitewater Canoe???
The Whitesell Piranha followed closly by its smaller brother the
Descender. I won't even spend much time looking at the the new Whitesell
whatever it is, Rumor has it that Nolan hissownself won't even paddle
one. It was built to answer the demand to make a smaller boat. For
smaller needs, I think Dagger has a better design.
Lotsa folks paddle lotsa boats and to be sure, most all of them (except
that wierd Perception OC-1 and the Mad River Howler) have thier finer
points, but for an all around whitewater open boat, I really and truly
don't think you can beat a Whitesell.
This changes a lot if you are on the smallish side sizewize.
The Whitesell design has been around for a long time. Its been around
because it works. There is some pretty fierce namebrand loyalty when it
comes to open canoes, and I know i am guilty. I've paddled other boats,
and nearly each time I get a chance to try something different, (except
the aforementioned 2) I think "Gee, this is pretty neat!" then I get
back in that old, beat up whitesell, and I, , well, I just find myself
relaxing somewhat, its just so damned civilized.
luv
chipper
Chip Mefford
David Bussey wrote:
>
> Steve wrote:
> >
> > I'm thinking of progressing to whitewater canoeing, and would like to
> > hear your opinions on what kind to buy. Thanks in advance for any
> > advice.
>
>
> You'll probably get a lot of opinions on this, my opinions are biased by
> the boats that I've owned (Dagger Genesis & Mohawk Viper 12). The best
> boat for _you_ will depend mostly on your size (I arbitrarily use 185
> pounds as a dividing line) and what style of paddling you're going to
> do.
>
> playing and catching eddys only when critical, consider one of the big
> forgiving boats like the Whitesell Piranha (Descender for under 185) or
> Bluehole Sunburst II.
Ya know, its pretty funny, , out on the river, the folks that seem to be
laid back, gently cruising down, offtimes blueangle style, catching
every impossible eddy, getting some of the best surftime in, (excluding
retentive moves) and doing the least amount of dumping, are old farts
paddling whitesells. Wierd huh? considering they are strickly downriver
boats.
I paddle a Piranha Light, I left 200 lbs in my rearview a long time ago,
yet I paddle with folks nearly half my weight in the same boat and they
seem to do okay. As this is a pretty big boat, I wonder how well the 185
dividing line works here.
>
> Of course you should try as many different boats as possible to form
> your own opinion before you buy.
This is very good advice, Hook up with a paddling club. Open boaters
usually are an eccentric, opinionated, downright wierd buncha old pals
that have done their own neato trick stuff to their boats and you can
learn a lot, and get to try out a lot of different ideas. In the end,
the Best Whitewater Canoe is the one you own. Get out there and have
some fun.
> All of the above assumes that you're
> looking at _solo_ canoes, if otherwise, nevermind.
>
> - DB
luv
chipper
David Bussey
Steve Cramer wrote:
> I weigh 185, so will comment on your dividing line, among other things.
>
> I know a number of people around here who would consider the Whitesells
> quite playful. They are certainly _very_ forgiving. The Descender is
> high volume and over 13' long. It would not be overloaded at 200+.
You could very well be right. As I said, the 185 pounds was fairly
arbitrary. Since my personal experience with the Whitesells has been
limited to brief turns in class 2 water, my remarks were based mostly on
observations of the paddlers of these boats and their paddling styles,
therefore my comments about the Whitesell may say more about the
characteristics of the boaters than the boats.
However, I would be cautious about using boat volume as an indication of
recommended paddler weight. For example, the Dagger Genesis and Dagger
Rival each have a 6 inch freeboard capacity of 620 pounds. Where the
Genesis can easily accomodate a 200+ pound paddler, the design
characteristics of the Rival make it unsuitable for those over 200
pounds.
- David
Oci-One Kanubi
Chip Mefford <cmef...@avwashington.com> typed:
>
> I paddle a Piranha Light, I left 200 lbs in my rearview
> a long time ago, yet I paddle with folks nearly half my
> weight in the same boat and they seem to do okay. As this
> is a pretty big boat, I wonder how well the 185 dividing
> line works here.
Appalachian Whitewater Vol.II) must weigh all of 125. This skinny
little guy, probably in his early sixties, is massively courageous,
running rivers like the Upper Yough in... yup, a Whitesell. I think
he's boating a Descender these days, but I'm sure he used to paddle
a Piranha.
Did I tell you, Chip, my experience at First Island on my first run
of the Lower Big Sandy last weekend? We carefully scouted from the
island, and I picked out a line from the 4' vertical sluice across
the current into a cobble-bordered eddy on the right, where I could
dump out the water collected in the vertical drop. Then I would
ferry to a twitchier eddy on the left, and peel out angled hard to
the right, crossing above the pinning rock. "Oh nooooo," sez my
guide, "you'll pin fore shore! Run straight down the right through
the holes" (he's a kayaker, of course; elegance is not in their
lexicon.) So, no kidding, there I was walking back to my boat when
along comes this guy in a Whitesell who runs exactly the line I had
just scouted out, and runs it clean. So, with that evidence before
me, I do the same -- no problem! The only difference is: the guy in
the Whitesell ran the whole rapid without taking on a drop of water,
whereas I had to dump my Ocoee in the first eddy, and then again at
the bottom of the rapid. What an ad for Whitesell that could've
been!
TC Mits
On Thu, 29 May 1997 13:51:57 -0700, David Bussey
<bus...@usa.redcross.org> wrote:
>Steve wrote:
>> I'm thinking of progressing to whitewater canoeing, and would like to
>> hear your opinions on what kind to buy. Thanks in advance
>If your intent is to run straight down the river with little or no
>If you intend to do a lot of playing or to really work the rapids, more
Dave, you hit the two biggest categories of solo ww canoes; down river
and hole/wave playing.
As far as what particular canoe to get, I think it should be a Massive
Departure, and I'll show you how to roll if you let me try it out. :)
Outfitting can make or break a canoe. I like the Mad River TKO
saddle, double thigh straps, and toe blocks that don't crowd my feet.
For a new boater, single low thigh straps are best.
>Of course you should try as many different boats as possible to form
>your own opinion before you buy.
But make a choice, get a boat. and use it! Your second boat will
probably be an even better choice.
Sam Heinrich
hein...@dclink.com or
sa...@pub1.ipn.vocaltec.com (iphone!)
TC Mits
On Fri, 30 May 1997 11:18:59 -0500, Oci-One Kanubi
>the bottom of the rapid.
honest question here: is there any solo ww canoe that is wetter than
an Ocoee? what is it, 25" wide with inset gunn'ls, 10'+ long? the
ocoee sits deep in the water when it's dry. I'm sure it's a blast now
that the Little Falls hydro guage is reading 69F!
Sam Heinrich
fwiw, ne1 check out this internet 'pager' yet?
http://www.mirabilis.com/products.html
Oci-One Kanubi
hein...@dclink.com (TC Mits) typed:
>
> is there any solo ww canoe that is wetter than an Ocoee?
I doubt it
> what is it, 25" wide with inset gunn'ls, 10'+ long?
27"+change wide and 11'2" long.
> the ocoee sits deep in the water when it's dry. I'm sure
> it's a blast now that the Little Falls hydro guage is
> reading 69F!
It's been a blast all winter long (hasn't been in the Potomac,
though sincethe last summer doldrums)! I've just bought a
Rival, but I will keep the Ocoees, unless the Rival shows clear
advantages *and* holds up to the rocks in steepish streams like
the Upper Yough and the Lower Big Sandy.
Byron Funnell
Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
>
> hein...@dclink.com (TC Mits) typed:
> >
> > is there any solo ww canoe that is wetter than an Ocoee?
>
> I doubt it
I'd place my bets against the Flashback and Fantasy myself. Narrow and
pointy.
Byron
--
Byron Funnell - The CADMaker
e-mail: cadm...@fortwayne.infi.net
http://www.vinelife.org
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cadmaker
Jcnewsome
Didn't see anything about the Mad River Outrage in the postings. Probably
the smoothest paddling, best carving boat I have ever paddled.
Without a doubt, however, you should paddle as many boats as you possibly
can before buying anything - everyone has theii own preferences.
TC Mits
On Fri, 30 May 1997 23:11:58 -0500, Byron Funnell
<cadm...@fortwayne.infi.net> wrote:
>> hein...@dclink.com (TC Mits) typed:
>> > is there any solo ww canoe that is wetter than an Ocoee?
>> I doubt it
>I'd place my bets against the Flashback and Fantasy myself. Narrow and
>pointy.
I heard someone else say they thought the Fantasy was a wet boat, too,
but it's not true compared to short narrow boats that have been made
in the last 5+ years. The Fantasy is 13'+ long and 31" wide. Check
it out in Kent Fords Solo Playboating video; it's one of the featured
boats. (I bought one as my first ww solo boat).
I think the Fantasy is discontinued now and although I've never seen
one, the Flashback was its predecessor, right?
Sam Heinrich
ne1 use the icq internet pager? chat+
http://www.mirabilis.com/products.html
Peter Staehling
>I'd place my bets against the Flashback and Fantasy myself. Narrow and
>pointy.
Ten or so years ago I paddled a Flashback down
stuff like the Upper Gauley. It was fairly wet
but with care you could run big water quite dry.
It had the added advantage of being more
managable when full IMHO. You could heel it up
on it's side and 2/3 of the water would dump out.
The newer crop of boats seem to be more of a
problem to handle when wet because of the huge
volume thay hold and the sharper edges.
The Flashback was pretty wet in smaller choppier
waves though.
It may be that some of this is just my selective
memory.
Just the ramblings of another old fart,
Pete
Byron Funnell
Sam,
> I heard someone else say they thought the Fantasy was a wet boat, too,
> but it's not true compared to short narrow boats that have been made
> in the last 5+ years. The Fantasy is 13'+ long and 31" wide. Check
> it out in Kent Fords Solo Playboating video; it's one of the featured
> boats. (I bought one as my first ww solo boat).
>
> I think the Fantasy is discontinued now and although I've never seen
> one, the Flashback was its predecessor, right?
Yes, the Flashback was the predecessor. Folks have also said the Vipers
were very wet. They are until you learn to paddle them and even then to
an extent. I find that when I want a dry run I have to work at it much
more, but I actually can make a drier run. sometimes though I hear the
waves beaconing me and plunge in. This is where I see the Whitesells,
Scamps, XLs, Encores, Genesis, etc being much more dry.
I have not paddled the Flashback or Fantasy much, but found the longer
pointed nose constantly got into waves and took on water. Seemed to
knife in.
Yes it was in Kents video. He tried to give play to each of the big
companies boats. Fantasy was the Mad River boat at the time.
Don't get me wrong, the Fantasy was a good boat, I just prefer other
newer designs w/ a little wider nose.
Byron Funnell
Peter,
> >I'd place my bets against the Flashback and Fantasy myself. Narrow and
> >pointy.
>
> Ten or so years ago I paddled a Flashback down
> stuff like the Upper Gauley. It was fairly wet
> but with care you could run big water quite dry.
> It had the added advantage of being more
> managable when full IMHO. You could heel it up
> on it's side and 2/3 of the water would dump out.
> The newer crop of boats seem to be more of a
> problem to handle when wet because of the huge
> volume thay hold and the sharper edges.
That would have been a treat to see. Yes my boats (Encores and Vipers)
are more troublesome when full. Can't dump near as much out of a Viper.
For that very reason I have it bagged all the way back to my knees now.
Can't hold near the water. Of course I lack stowing room and a breathing
well as well.
> The Flashback was pretty wet in smaller choppier
> waves though.
This is where I paddled these boats and found them wet. The same stuff
was a blast in an Encore or Genesis. Here it was a battle. Was on the
Nanny after a hard rain that turned the river into a beginning to end
series of waves. Cool. My other very wet experience w/ the Fantasy was
surfing. Bow surf seemed to knife the nose in easier getting water in
the boat. Side surf was wet too, but almost always is!
Juerg Boschung
C
> The Whitesell Piranha followed closly by its smaller brother the
> Descender. I won't even spend much time looking at the the new Whitesell
> whatever it is, Rumor has it that Nolan hissownself won't even paddle
> one. It was built to answer the demand to make a smaller boat. For
> smaller needs, I think Dagger has a better design.
>
> Lotsa folks paddle lotsa boats and to be sure, most all of them (except
> that wierd Perception OC-1 and the Mad River Howler) have thier finer
> points, but for an all around whitewater open boat, I really and truly
> don't think you can beat a Whitesell.
>
> This changes a lot if you are on the smallish side sizewize.
>
> The Whitesell design has been around for a long time. Its been around
> because it works. There is some pretty fierce namebrand loyalty when it
> comes to open canoes, and I know i am guilty. I've paddled other boats,
> and nearly each time I get a chance to try something different, (except
> the aforementioned 2) I think "Gee, this is pretty neat!" then I get
> back in that old, beat up whitesell, and I, , well, I just find myself
> relaxing somewhat, its just so damned civilized.
>
> luv
> chipper
I used to paddle a piranha for years and it was a good and forgiving
boat, and certainly easier to handle then the MR Explorer in which I
started solopaddling. However, then I started paddling a shorter/lighter
boat (Viper12) and once you got used to the hard chines and the smaller
size it would be difficult to go back to paddling a 14ft3in boat with
such a rounded shape.
however, I converted my piranha to a tandem boat and it works great.
it's so stable and forgiving that i have no hesitation to take complete
novices down grade 2 rivers, incl. surfing and eddy turns.
THE_EDDY
People were talking about the wettest boatthey've ever paddled. I
have never seen a Fantasy, but the Massve Designs "Departure" is
definitely the wettest boat ever, anywhere, by any manufacturer. It surfs
anything, and cartwheels like crazy, but its length (9'6") and its low
sides (14" tapering to just three) are not really designed for the "want
to stay dry" crowd. The Air is drier, but still involves intimate contact
with the paddling medium. The tuly nice thing about both these boats is
that even wet they handle well because they simply can't pick up too much
water. Since they are all outfitted with wood gunwales they drain well
too.
Cheers, Dave C.
Chip Mefford
Juerg Boschung wrote:
>
> I used to paddle a piranha for years and it was a good and forgiving
> boat, and certainly easier to handle then the MR Explorer in which I
> started solopaddling. However, then I started paddling a shorter/lighter
> boat (Viper12) and once you got used to the hard chines and the smaller
> size it would be difficult to go back to paddling a 14ft3in boat with
> such a rounded shape.
Oh, I don't know, I know a few folk that started open boating in Vipers
and XL series boats, and dumped them like hot rocks after paddling a
piranha. Odd thing is, it seems to have to do with that nice way that
the piranha handles when swamped. A piranha can continue to navigate
when full whereas a Viper or Probe or similar boat is not very
controllable.
Yeah, those harder chined boats are fun, I have never denied it. However
to state that those shorter, quicker handling boats are somehow "better"
than the old and dated whitesell because of some inherent handling
superiority, well, thats just a strange thing to say. Piranhas are out
there on the toughest water around, and doing just fine. Have been for
years.
This sorta question comes up all the time, and we hear all kinds of
suggestions for the latest and greatest from mohawk and dagger and the
Whitesell boats never get mentioned. I'm just trying to be fair, its a
good design that has been proven over and over and over again for years
and years.
Thats all
Enjoy
chipper
Juerg Boschung
Chip Mefford wrote:
>
>
> Oh, I don't know, I know a few folk that started open boating in Vipers
> and XL series boats, and dumped them like hot rocks after paddling a
> piranha. Odd thing is, it seems to have to do with that nice way that
> the piranha handles when swamped. A piranha can continue to navigate
> when full whereas a Viper or Probe or similar boat is not very
> controllable.
>
> Yeah, those harder chined boats are fun, I have never denied it. However
> to state that those shorter, quicker handling boats are somehow "better"
> than the old and dated whitesell because of some inherent handling
> superiority, well, thats just a strange thing to say. Piranhas are out
> there on the toughest water around, and doing just fine. Have been for
> years.
>
> This sorta question comes up all the time, and we hear all kinds of
> suggestions for the latest and greatest from mohawk and dagger and the
> Whitesell boats never get mentioned. I'm just trying to be fair, its a
> good design that has been proven over and over and over again for years
> and years.
>
> Thats all
>
> Enjoy
> chipper
YES ,I do agree the Piranha is a nice boat, just a bit heavy and big for
me now, especially when it's time to carry it up the river bank. but as
a tandem boat it 's great, and there are 2 people to carry it around if
needed on a steep shore.
and YES, the piranha handles much better then other boats when swamped.
BUT NO! , please don't talk about Vipers and XL's in the same sentence.
they are definitely not the same and I can certainly understand why
people drop the XL like hot potatoes after experiencing the piranha.
hope you keep enjoying your whitesell!
Juerg
Peter Staehling
I'm interested, anyone have a URL or address for Massive Designs?
Bill Blauvelt
Pete,
I am trying to figure out how this rec.boats. paddle thing works. Let me
know if you get this message. It should only go to your personal e-mail and
not get posted for everyone else.
Bill Blauvelt
In article <5n0vjc$k...@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>, pst...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu