Does waxing speed a kayak?
Ron Van Santen
My son is into speed kayaking. I am wondering whether the waxing of the
hull of a fibreglass kayak would reduce its friction in the water.
One would think that a hydrophobic (water repellant) surface created by
a wax would make it more slippery ie. reduce friction in water.
However when the hull is already smooth with a gelcoat finish, does a
wax coating really reduce friction or is it more of a cosmetic?
These guys a speed fanatics and every microsecond and gram is looked at.
Any thoughts?
Ron van Santen
Kevin Court
Ron Van Santen <ac...@vianet.net.au> wrote in article
<32FAF1...@vianet.net.au>...
Ron,
Absolutely. There are several products available for sailboats which
reduce hull friction. Also, during the last Americas Cup, the boats had
some type of film applied to the hulls to reduce friction. I can't
remember what it was called, but it was basically a million dollar saran
wrap.
K
David Johnson
Ron Van Santen wrote:
>
> My son is into speed kayaking. ?
(snip)
> These guys a speed fanatics and every microsecond and gram is looked at.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Ron van Santen
I assume your son is into sprint racing (If he isn't that is where he
should be if he is interested in speed!). The USCKT (governing body for
sprint racing in the US) sprint rules govern what you can and cannot do
to a hull as far as shape and surface treatments. My interpretation of
the rules would be that any surface treatment that is added over the
hull finish would not be legal. If you are really interested I could
send you the section of the rules that applies. (Email me directly.)
David Johnson
rick etter
Ron Van Santen wrote:
>
> My son is into speed kayaking. I am wondering whether the waxing of the
> hull of a fibreglass kayak would reduce its friction in the water.
>
> One would think that a hydrophobic (water repellant) surface created by
> a wax would make it more slippery ie. reduce friction in water.
>
> However when the hull is already smooth with a gelcoat finish, does a
> wax coating really reduce friction or is it more of a cosmetic?
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Ron van Santen
Ron,
I was just at a symposium by Wilderness Canoe Association in Toronto
and one of the speakers there was some physics guy in fluid dynamics or
something and he says that it can actually increase friction because
the hull really rides on a one molecule layer of water
and that waxing interferes with this layer. Obviously I don't know all
the physics involved but he had a reasonable explanation for this.
hopr this helps or a least gets your son to investigate further.
rick
keep your stick on the ice ----- and your paddle wet
FreefallLT
Try AstroGlide, it is available in almost every sex speciality shop.
If you haven't gotten the point, this is ment as a form of hummor.
But any ways, that stuff is supper slick. Maybe it will work like wax?
Maybe not?
shayne
Ron Van Santen
David Johnson wrote:
>
> Ron Van Santen wrote:
> >
> (snip)
> > These guys a speed fanatics and every microsecond and gram is looked at.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Ron van Santen
>
> should be if he is interested in speed!). The USCKT (governing body for
> sprint racing in the US) sprint rules govern what you can and cannot do
> to a hull as far as shape and surface treatments. My interpretation of
> the rules would be that any surface treatment that is added over the
> hull finish would not be legal. If you are really interested I could
> send you the section of the rules that applies. (Email me directly.)
>
> David Johnson
Well a polish with wax hardly (visibly) changes the surface. I am
getting advice of yes and no that wax speeds up the hull. A yachtie even
talks about 400 grit sand paper.
I look forward to the replies. And thanks for the offer. I can get the
rules here in Oz.
Ron
Ron Van Santen
rick etter wrote:
>
> Ron Van Santen wrote:
> >
> > hull of a fibreglass kayak would reduce its friction in the water.
> >
> > One would think that a hydrophobic (water repellant) surface created by
> > a wax would make it more slippery ie. reduce friction in water.
> >
> > However when the hull is already smooth with a gelcoat finish, does a
> > wax coating really reduce friction or is it more of a cosmetic?
> >
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Ron van Santen
>
> I was just at a symposium by Wilderness Canoe Association in Toronto
> and one of the speakers there was some physics guy in fluid dynamics or
> something and he says that it can actually increase friction because
> the hull really rides on a one molecule layer of water
> and that waxing interferes with this layer. Obviously I don't know all
> the physics involved but he had a reasonable explanation for this.
> hopr this helps or a least gets your son to investigate further.
>
> rick
>
> keep your stick on the ice ----- and your paddle wet
I had some say that rubbing a yacht hull with 400 grit reduces friction.
Some of the postings indicate that wax improves it and named some
products.
I remember reading about dolphin skins being smoother in water than
their smooth skin counterparts.
The subject is intriguing.
Thanks
Ron
Doug Rebard
Ron Van Santen wrote:
>
> David Johnson wrote:
> >
> > Ron Van Santen wrote:
> > >
> > (snip)
> > > These guys a speed fanatics and every microsecond and gram is looked at.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Ron van Santen
> >
> > should be if he is interested in speed!). The USCKT (governing body for
> > sprint racing in the US) sprint rules govern what you can and cannot do
> > to a hull as far as shape and surface treatments. My interpretation of
> > the rules would be that any surface treatment that is added over the
> > hull finish would not be legal. If you are really interested I could
> > send you the section of the rules that applies. (Email me directly.)
> >
> > David Johnson
> Thanks David
>
> Well a polish with wax hardly (visibly) changes the surface. I am
> getting advice of yes and no that wax speeds up the hull. A yachtie even
> talks about 400 grit sand paper.
>
> I look forward to the replies. And thanks for the offer. I can get the
> rules here in Oz.
>
> Ron
This discussion went around the yachtie circles 20 + years ago. & the
answer then was that 400 sand was good as anything, except maybe special
coatings. I find it hard to believe anyone will get an answer, that
they can hang their hat on, over the usenet, since the topic is sorta
like old folk medicine. Very difficult to measure any real advantage,
and if you can't measure it, it might be just BS.
Doug
Jim Cavo
I've heard the same about fine sanding, the theory being that the fine
abrasions will aerate the water around the hull and thus reduce
friction.
Tim Johnson
I understand that many waxes are actually hydophilic.
Robert J. Branch II
environments and among those who have WAX IS SLOW. Actually, 600 grit
wetsand in the forward 1/2 to 2/3 of the hull proves fastests. I will
grant the 1/2 to 2/3 to be in dispute. Both on the water experience and
tank tests confirm this.
BOB BRANCH, editor or "Eddy Lines", the newsletter of the Great Lakes
Paddlers Canoe & Kayak Club in Ann Arbor, Michigan
John Winters
Ron Van Santen <ac...@vianet.net.au> wrote in article
<32FAF1...@vianet.net.au>...
> My son is into speed kayaking. I am wondering whether the waxing of the
> hull of a fibreglass kayak would reduce its friction in the water.
>
> One would think that a hydrophobic (water repellant) surface created by
> a wax would make it more slippery ie. reduce friction in water.
>
> However when the hull is already smooth with a gelcoat finish, does a
> wax coating really reduce friction or is it more of a cosmetic?
>
> These guys a speed fanatics and every microsecond and gram is looked at.
>
> Any thoughts?
This is a commonly asked question and the answer is no. There are only
three proven methods of reducing friction.
1. Long chain polymers. These pollute, are illegal for racing, and their
weight more than offsets any gain.
2. Flexible skins (ala porpoise skins or EMS surfaces) These are illegal
for racing and out of the stratosphere in cost. EMS surfaces are just in
the theory stage anyway.
3. Structuring or microgrooves. These were used on America's cup boats but
only served as a psychological weapon. Structuring is microgrooves in the
surface either by applied tape or machined. They must be aligned with the
flow (virtually impossible in a canoe or kayak that yaws etc.) and they
must vary in depth according to velocity. This makes them impractical
because the boat varies in velocity just as the flow varies in velocity
over the hull.
There are ample technical papers and texts on this. Most people just don't
understand fluid dynamics and will give you all kinds of worthless advice.
Ignore them.
--
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://www.onlink.net/~jwinters/
Lance Lippencott
"John Winters" <jwin...@onlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
>This is a commonly asked question and the answer is no. There are only
>three proven methods of reducing friction.
>1. Long chain polymers. These pollute, are illegal for racing, and their
>weight more than offsets any gain.
>2. Flexible skins (ala porpoise skins or EMS surfaces) These are illegal
>for racing and out of the stratosphere in cost. EMS surfaces are just in
>the theory stage anyway.
>3. Structuring or microgrooves. These were used on America's cup boats but
>only served as a psychological weapon. Structuring is microgrooves in the
>surface either by applied tape or machined. They must be aligned with the
>flow (virtually impossible in a canoe or kayak that yaws etc.) and they
>must vary in depth according to velocity. This makes them impractical
>because the boat varies in velocity just as the flow varies in velocity
>over the hull.
>There are ample technical papers and texts on this. Most people just don't
>understand fluid dynamics and will give you all kinds of worthless advice.
>Ignore them.
I totally agree with John. In all of the technical data I could find
for human-powered watercraft, he's named all of the currently tried
methods. I would suggest that you check out some articles on
boundary-layer flow if you're interested in what's really going on
here.
Lance
Lance Lippencott |I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations;
velv...@clark.net |neither are you here to live up to mine.
"Bung\/\/aD" | -Peter McIntosh
Peter Marshall
Rub it down with banana skins.
There is an argument that says a sandpapered surface will go faster, as
this then keeps a layer of
water next to the boat. The friction then is between one water layer an
another, and that is less than the boat hull and the water layer.
The next question is.....
If this is so, should a C1 paddler make one side of the boat smoother (or
rougher depending on your opinion) than the other. As this would help to
steer the C1 and offset the turning effect of the paddle.
IMHO it is best to eat the banana. That way I guarantee you go faster!
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Peter & Christine Marshall
http://www.u-net.com/~haverton (Peters Business Page)
http://www.u-net.com/~haverton/wwr (UK Wild Water Racing Page)
BILL G LAWLESS
I have done a lot of boat control time at USCKT Nationals and have never
checked for anything except dimensions and weight. Surface finish is limited to
checking that surfaces are convex or flat .
Regards, Bill Lawless
e-mail: law...@trader.com or bill.l...@icsbbs.org
---
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