Fastest Kayaks?
Bill Faus
own a downriver kayak, what readily available (rental) plastic
boat would you paddle? Water is class II, about 5 miles,
with one class III rapid and some long flat stretches.
The water is tame enough I've been considering renting
a sea kayak of some sort. I've heard that the WaveSport
Excel is relatively fast, but I'd have to guess that
it would not track as well as say a Sea Lion.
Any opinions?
-bill
Jim Lewis
as any river boat I have paddled.
I suspect that if your are less than 180 that a Laser
would also be good (similar boat only for smaller people).
Cheers,
Jim Lewis
le...@protocol.zycad.com
Chris Webster
>So....if you were in a downriver race, and didn't personally
>own a downriver kayak, what readily available (rental) plastic
>boat would you paddle?
Definatly a 4 meter boat. Look for an old Hollow Form.
>I've heard that the WaveSport
>Excel is relatively fast,
Wave sports does make the fastest plastic hulls, but I would go with a
Lazer for this application.
--Chris
Willby
writes:
The kayak per se is a minor factor. The condition of the paddler is
the major factor. The kayaker who win races uses an unladed
hardshell boat and is in good shape from having practiced for at
least two months before a race. It helps to have a rudder so your
energy is directed properly without having to make corrective
strokes. The slight drag incurred is no concern.
A friend of mine paddled a single Klepper--a folding kayak
(considered a slow boat)--and finished in the top ten. To be sure,
he was in good shape. Unless you can maintain a strong pace for the
duration of the race, the kayak is not going to compensate for your
lack of onditioning --period.
Bill Faus
: In article <CrCJs...@hpcvra.cv.hp.com>, bi...@cv.hp.com (Bill Faus)
: writes:
Do you paddle much? Where did I say I was out of condition?
A Klepper is not an ideal vessel for constricted class III
whitewater. Hull efficiencies vary widely and can have an
impact in a 45 minute race. If the kayak is a "minor factor",
then why recommend a rudder to straighten out a kayak that
will not track straight?
The race is one stage of a bike/kayak/run triathlon. Being
a very strong, conditioned boater I was hoping to gain
several minutes during the whitewater stage to stay even
with the other competitors who are faster bikers and runners
but who don't boat much.
-bill
LKFJR
I have raced for many years and won my fair share of them. I have
raced in rivers and open ocean. I have used Olympic flatwater boats,
surfskis, sea kayaks (Nordkapp and Arluk I and I.8). There is no
question that Doug Bushnell's Wave series are the fastest around. I'd
suggest the Wave Excel to keep the bow high in the river. Regardless
of boat, you are kidding yourself if you don't have the engine to
drive it. Even to consider a plastic boat such as the Sea Lion tells
me you ought to forget about racing.
Scott Smay
: So....if you were in a downriver race, and didn't personally
: Any opinions?
: -bill
1. You are in terrible shape, thus you should paddle a Klepper
since the boat won't make any difference to a wienie like
yourself.
2. You are a moron for considering a plastic boat, therefore
you should not even enter the damn race.
Hope this helps :)
We don't paddle Wave Sports boats in Idaho much, but the Dagger Response
is probably the fastest plastic whitewater boat in these parts.
You might think about borrowing an old glass boat. I had a Prijon
420 whitewater touring boat that helped a friend in a downriver race.
I'm guessing that even an old Lettman or Prijon slalom boat might
track better than a more rockered play boat.
cheers,
scott
David Meyers
In article <2trc91$c...@search01.news.aol.com> wil...@aol.com (Willby) writes:
>The kayak per se is a minor factor. The condition of the paddler is
>the major factor. The kayaker who win races uses an unladed
There is truth in the statement that conditioning is important, but to
say that the boat is a minor factor is to ignore major differences
that exist in boat hull design. For example, if you put Greg Barton,
an Olympic gold medalist in the kayak sprint events, in a typical
whitewater (slalom, or playboat, not DR racing boat) hull, and let me
paddle a Downriver boat, or perhaps a boat like a Seda Glider (sea
kayak), or a surf ski (even longer, narrower and faster), and we race
for 1000 meters or so, I'll win every time, even though Greg is very
much the stronger paddler. The typical whitewater boat has a hull
speed of around 4.3-4.5 knots, while the typical DR boat can be pushed
at around 5.7 knots, and 6.0 knots for the Glider (these are numbers I
get when paddling a measured nautical mile in no wind, flat water
conditions, at maximum effort. Those differences aren't minor. Over
the nautical mile, they amount to time differences of more than 3
minutes between the Glider and my Perception Dancer, same paddler, so
conditioning and skill are not a factor.
>hardshell boat and is in good shape from having practiced for at
>least two months before a race. It helps to have a rudder so your
>energy is directed properly without having to make corrective
>strokes. The slight drag incurred is no concern.
> A friend of mine paddled a single Klepper--a folding kayak
>(considered a slow boat)--and finished in the top ten. To be sure,
>he was in good shape. Unless you can maintain a strong pace for the
>duration of the race, the kayak is not going to compensate for your
>lack of conditioning --period.
True, you must be in shape, but your friend might have won the race in
a fast kayak. That he finished in the top ten says the race was either
not hotly contested, or the other paddlers were in similarly sluggish
boats, not that boat design means nothing.
Dave Meyers
Willby
writes:
I've been paddling for the past 21 years, both along ocean
coastlines in the Pacific Northwest and in the Caribbean. I use both
hardshell and folding kayaks. On some extended trips,I've maintained
a fast pace for periods of between 6 and 8 hours at a time. Having a
rudder has helped in currents and following winds for keeping on
course. Mind you, my kayak is laden with camping gear up to 150
pounds. I've also paddled unladen kayaks. But the overriding factor
for speed is conditioning and stamina. If I were interested in
maximizing my kayak for that extra competitive edge, I would choose a
lightweight hardshell (fiberglass) boat with a rudder.
A friend of mine has a sea kayak retail business. For the past
12 years he has held a sea kayak regatta. I've monitored each and
every one of these races and have had a chance to see and evaluate a
variety of kayaks and similar craft in race conditions. Consistent
winners, over the years, were Olympic caliber paddlers using surf
skis with rudders along with gull wing graphite paddles. Those
winners using sea kayaks were almost always competitive racers using
lightweight hardshells--usually specially built by the manufacturers.
But the one thing which stood out was the fact that all the winners
were well conditioned--they had the stamina and endurance to maintain
a fast pace throughout, in this case, the 15 mile race and have
enough left at the finish line for an all out sprint. THAT IS WHY I
SAY THE KAYAK IS A MINOR FACTOR. The fellow who paddled the Klepper
and placed in the top ten of his race is a friend of mine. I know
for a fact his conditioning was the major factor for him placing as
high as he did. Among kayakers, the Klepper is considered a "slow"
kayak. Yet my friend proved he could be competive with so called
"faster" hardshell kayak. Another friend of mine won a 100 mile race
using a kayak he made using a nylon fabric as hull material. The
kayak had a low profile to reduce wind resistance--important since
the race was along a windy coastline.
I'm quite aware of hull speed and the stats surrounding hull
design. No matter, it's still the paddler that makes the major
difference!!! If you have further doubts, so be it.
Willby
mey...@cs.washington.edu (David Meyers) writes:
My friend in the Klepper probably could have won had he been
paddling a hardshell. The race he was in was hotly contested by fast
paddlers in hardshells. No doubt about it, my friend was a gorilla
paddler.
In a group of paddlers who are fairly equal in stamina and
endurance, the competitive edge will go to the one who has the most
efficient kayak design i.e., lightweight hardshell with narrow beam
and low profile to reduce windage plus gull wing graphite paddle--as
well as savy in the principles of drafting (closely following in the
wake of a leader then breaking out in a sprint for the finish).
I still maintain my evaluation that conditioning is a major
factor and the boat a minor factor within the context of even being a
contender in a race. If you are in good condition, then, and only
then, does the boat become a major factor. It was clear from the
original question of whether to consider a Sea Lion for a race, that
the person was really not a contender to begin with.
john a. mcclenny
: So....if you were in a downriver race, and didn't personally
For some reason I have this habit of doing downriver races
in inappropriate boats. Stay away from duckies :).
Of the plastic whitewater boats the Excel is the fastest by far.
I have the (lightly contested) plastic world record for top
to bottom Ocoee time in an Excel and was more than a minute faster
than the next plastic boat. I also beat ALL the top Wildwater
paddlers - although they were paddling in rafts at the time :).
Such are minute moments of near glory.
I would find the longest boat you feel comfortable paddling the
river with and rent or borrow it. The downriver races I have
done where sea kayaks competed the sea kayaks trounced the
non-wildwater boat whitewater kayaks. You might also try and find
an old downriver boat such as a Match - they are stable and
turn fairly well, while still having good hull speed, and a lot
of them are hiding in people's garages.
Hull speed is everything.
john mc
David Meyers
[summary of his paddling experience deleted]
[stuff about kayak regatta deleted]
>variety of kayaks and similar craft in race conditions. Consistent
>winners, over the years, were Olympic caliber paddlers using surf
^^^^
>skis with rudders along with gull wing graphite paddles. Those
^^^^
>winners using sea kayaks were almost always competitive racers using
>lightweight hardshells--usually specially built by the manufacturers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
These guys are obviously of the opinion that the boat makes a difference,
or they wouldn't be using specially built fast boats, would they??
> But the one thing which stood out was the fact that all the winners
>were well conditioned--they had the stamina and endurance to maintain
>a fast pace throughout, in this case, the 15 mile race and have
>enough left at the finish line for an all out sprint. THAT IS WHY I
>SAY THE KAYAK IS A MINOR FACTOR.
The kayak is a minor factor in this scenario because all the hotshots
you're talking about are paddling fast boats. You even admit that.
Among equally conditioned and skilled paddlers, put one in a slow boat
and another in a fast boat, and I'll bet on the guy in the fast boat
any time. He won't have to sprint at the end, because the other guy
won't be anywhere near him, even if the guy in the fast boat just goes
at a fast cruise effort. That's why I say that the kayak is not a
minor factor.
> The fellow who paddled the Klepper
>and placed in the top ten of his race is a friend of mine. I know
>for a fact his conditioning was the major factor for him placing as
>high as he did. Among kayakers, the Klepper is considered a "slow"
>kayak. Yet my friend proved he could be competive with so called
>"faster" hardshell kayak.
And his boat was likely a major factor in him not finishing even
higher ... unless there was a HUGE gap between him and the next faster
paddler, that is.
> I'm quite aware of hull speed and the stats surrounding hull
>design. No matter, it's still the paddler that makes the major
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>difference!!! If you have further doubts, so be it.
^^^^^^^^^^
Care to race me? You get to paddle my Perception Dancer, I'll take my
Mariner II. You can put a skeg on the Dancer for directional stability
if you like. Course is 5 nautical miles, flatwater. Since the boat
makes negligible difference, I'm sure you will consider this a fair
race... :^) I'll even agree not to train for two months prior to the
race. You can train all you want. To make matters even more sporting,
I'll spot you a minute per mile handicap.
I think we both agree that the paddler needs to be fit. What I take
issue with is your insistence that the boat is a minor factor. Given
that everybody is in as good condition as they can be, the difference
between one boat and another becomes the most important factor.
I think Bill Faus has indicated that he is a strong, fit paddler, and
he was asking for recommendations for a boat to be used in the kayak
leg of a three-leg race. The kayak leg is on a river that is no harder
than Class III, mostly easier, and with a lot of flatwater. His
question was about what boat he might pick that would be suitable for
the Class III stretch, but as fast as possible for the rest of the
course. Your insistence that the boat makes no difference is clearly
wrong in this context. Given some constant available power (one "Bill
Faus power", in this case), the question becomes: what boat should he
pick to minimize his time over the race course. Your answer: "get in
good shape, then it doesn't matter" makes no sense at all. Clearly,
regardless of his fitness level, there is some choice of boat
(possibly several will be the same) that will minimize his time.
To add some data that may help Bill in his choice of boats, here are
some speed trial results over a measured nautical mile in flat water,
no wind, maximum effort. All are plastic boats, all boats paddled with
no extra load.
Sea kayaks:
Aquaterra Chinook 5.15 knots
Aquaterra Sea Lion 5.28 knots
Hydra Sea Runner 5.51 knots
For comparison, whitewater boats:
Perception Dancer 4.31 knots
Perception Corsica S 4.29 knots
For further comparison, a Downriver racing boat (fiberglass):
DR Boat 5.78 knots.
I make no claim that these speeds are particularly fast for a racer,
but they are what I get when I do a maximum effort time trial over a
nautical mile. What is clear is that there are some pretty big
differences in speed here under conditions of constant paddler skill
and conditioning.
So Bill, if you are still listening, there are some data for you, all
plastic boats (except the DR boat) that you could take on a river
without worrying too much about smashing them up. If you use
any of the sea kayaks, you should be able to walk away from anyone in
a whitewater boat on the flatwater parts, but the DR boats will be faster
still ... good luck!
Dave Meyers
Bill Faus
: Sea kayaks:
: Aquaterra Chinook 5.15 knots
: Aquaterra Sea Lion 5.28 knots
: Hydra Sea Runner 5.51 knots
: For comparison, whitewater boats:
: Perception Dancer 4.31 knots
: Perception Corsica S 4.29 knots
: Dave Meyers
Thanks Dave. This is exactly what I was looking for. As my
personal whitewater boat, a Pirouette, is certainly slower
than the Dancer. These figures would roughly indicate that
if I rented a sea kayak like the Sea Lion or SeaYak (available
locally to me) that I could paddle this 5 mile stretch about
10-20% faster than in my Pirouette.
>From: wil...@aol.com (Willby)
>
>then, does the boat become a major factor. It was clear from the
>original question of whether to consider a Sea Lion for a race, that
>the person was really not a contender to begin with.
^^^^^^^^^
As far as being a 'contender'. Scott said it best....
"Bill, you're a Weenie and and a Moron!" Thanks Scott! :-) :-)
-bill
David Knight
>Sea kayaks:
>Aquaterra Chinook 5.15 knots
>Aquaterra Sea Lion 5.28 knots
>Hydra Sea Runner 5.51 knots
>
>For comparison, whitewater boats:
>Perception Dancer 4.31 knots
>Perception Corsica S 4.29 knots
>
>For further comparison, a Downriver racing boat (fiberglass):
>DR Boat 5.78 knots.
>
Dave,
I'm just curious about how these hulls speed were determined (measured
or calculated) ???? Are these based of the length of the waterline or
some other method ????
Thanks,
Dave Knight
Willby
mey...@cs.washington.edu (David Meyers) writes:
Dear David: I never deduced that Bill was a serious competitive
racer from his original question but rather the weekend warrior
type.. In any event, too many people ask what is the fastest kayak
without considering who is paddling it. I still maintain that before
you can consider the speed of a kayak, you must first consider the
strength and endurance of the paddler. You don't put a lawnmower
engine in a race car and expect to win. I repeat, only if the racers
in a given race are of relatively equal ability will the
characteristics of the kayak assume importance for the competive
edge. And of course, I'm talking about kayaks that have basically
the same performance characteristics, not a kayak designed for
maneuverability versus one designed for straight tracking.
Within the realm of my experience, serious sea kayak racers only
use lightweight hardshells with narrow beams and low profiles. More
often than not, they prefer rudders and use gull wing graphite
paddles. To be sure, my orientation is toward long distance
saltwater races ranging in length between 10 and 100 miles.
With regard to your "measured nautical mile speed trial results"
there is much that is left unsaid. Who officially timed the
events? Were the kayaks modified? Also, I doubt you're going to
maintain your one mile speed over a ten mile course. Races are won
through endurance and strategy, along with speed.
The bottom line to this discussion is that you have not changed
my opinion even with your "erudite" posturing. And as for Bill, a
fast kayak is meaningless unless he has the engine to power it.
Keith Beck
wil...@aol.com (Willby) writes:
>In article <1994Jun21.0...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
>mey...@cs.washington.edu (David Meyers) writes:
>
>Dear David: I never deduced that Bill was a serious competitive
>racer from his original question but rather the weekend warrior
>type.. In any event, too many people ask what is the fastest kayak
>without considering who is paddling it. I still maintain that before
> can consider the speed of a kayak, you must first consider the
[(stuff deleted, mercifull]y)
(stuff deleted, mercifully)
> This debate has gone to extremes of miscommunication: it's simple:
whether you have a Harley engine or a lawnmower engine is beside the
point: you have what you have. And that engine that you _do_ have will
make a faster hullspeed boat go faster than a slower hullspeed boat.
So, for a race with only Class II, get a long fast boat, which will
get better results with _your_ engine (and forget all the irrelevant,
missing-the-point stuff the last debator has been offering.
Ken Goodrich
I have to agree with Willby--it is important
to consider the capability of the paddler. Hull speed (HS) is only
important if the paddler is indeed capable of propelling the boat at
close to that speed. Below HS the primary drag mechanism is skin
friction and a shorter boat typically has less skin friction and will
thus be more efficient at slower speeds. An ideally size boat would
be such that the HS is just above the maximum speed the paddler is
capable of achieving (for whatever length of time they consider important).
Ken Goodrich
k.h.go...@larc.nasa.gov