Canvas Canoe Restoration
Byron Funnell
Steve Hurlbut wrote:
>
> I have an old cedar canvas canoe of unknown origin. The canvas is in
> reasonable shape, however it has been painted over the years with many
> layers of (obviously) inappropriate paint. The paint is very cracked
> and chipping. I would like to strip it down and refinish it but am
> unsure how to proceed. Would chemical stripper be OK to use? Would
> the canvas need to be resealed? What is the best paint to use for
> repainting? Any help would be appreciated.
> --
> *****************************************************
> * Steve Hurlbut and Kate Moran
> * Three Fathom Harbour
> * Nova Scotia
> *****************************************************
Steve,
I got a wood and cedar boat this summer w/ all of the canvas mostly
gone. It was given to me. I knew knothing of this type of boat. Found a
great book on restoring this type of boat at the library, but don't
recall the name right off. I will try to get the title if you would like
the information.
I think the authors recommendation would be to strip the canvas and
replace it. Seal it. Paint it. Paddle it.
Canvas suggested is Grade A Domestic Midwest Duck No. 10. Sealed w/
Boiled linseed oil w/ 20% clear cuprinol. Heat almost to a boil to
apply.
I don't recall the recommended paint.
I spent the summer working on an ABS boat instead so still have not
tackled this one. The book has very detailed instructions on restoring
the boat.
--
Byron Funnell - The CADMaker
e-mail: 74734...@compuserve.com
e-mail: cadm...@fortwayne.infi.net
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cadmaker
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vcf
Steve Hurlbut
Dan Miller
Byron Funnell wrote:
>
> Steve Hurlbut wrote:
> >
> > I have an old cedar canvas canoe of unknown origin. The canvas is in
> > reasonable shape, however it has been painted over the years with many
> > layers of (obviously) inappropriate paint. The paint is very cracked
> > and chipping. I would like to strip it down and refinish it but am
> > unsure how to proceed. Would chemical stripper be OK to use? Would
> > the canvas need to be resealed? What is the best paint to use for
> > repainting? Any help would be appreciated.
It will probably be as much work to strip and refinish the canvas as to
replace it with fresh. This would also allow you to make any other
repairs the canoe needs as well - ribs, planks etc. Cracking is common
on old canvs canoes - in some cases it is the result of many coats
of paint, in others, the filler is the culprit.
> Steve,
>
> I got a wood and cedar boat this summer w/ all of the canvas mostly
> gone. It was given to me. I knew knothing of this type of boat. Found a
> great book on restoring this type of boat at the library, but don't
> recall the name right off. I will try to get the title if you would like
> the information.
The book you are thinking of is probably _The Wood & Canvas Canoe_ by
Jerry Stelmock and Rollin Thurlow. If not, it should be.
> Canvas suggested is Grade A Domestic Midwest Duck No. 10. Sealed w/
> Boiled linseed oil w/ 20% clear cuprinol. Heat almost to a boil to
> apply.
You are confusing reconditioning the hull planking with filling the
canvas.
The boiled linseed oil/cuprinol (I simply used boiled linseed oil
thinned
50% with turpentine) is for conditioning the outside of the hull prior
to canvassing. This is said to restore some of the resiliency of the
wood, and help to prevent water uptake. Personally, I don't see where
there is any advantage to using cuprinol here; if the canoe is going to
be treated such that the cedar would rot, Cuprinol isn't going to help.
I
do treat stems, decks and other woods in rot-prone areas with Cuprinol.
Canvas is traditionally filled with a silica/ boiled linseed oil
compound.
Some folks are now using a water-based airplane dope filler that is
lighter
and dries quickly. Long term performance seems to be up in the air
still.
> I don't recall the recommended paint.
I recommend using a good quality marine paint. I've used Pettit and
Interlux products.
--
Daniel Miller
dmi...@gcg.com
Independent Boatbuilder and Small Craft History Enthusiast
So many boats, so little time....
scriver
Byron Funnell wrote:
>
> Steve Hurlbut wrote:
> >
> > I have an old cedar canvas canoe of unknown origin. The canvas is in
> > reasonable shape, however it has been painted over the years with many
> > layers of (obviously) inappropriate paint. The paint is very cracked
> > and chipping. I would like to strip it down and refinish it but am
> > unsure how to proceed. Would chemical stripper be OK to use? Would
> > the canvas need to be resealed? What is the best paint to use for
> > repainting? Any help would be appreciated.
> gone. It was given to me. I knew knothing of this type of boat. Found a
> great book on restoring this type of boat at the library, but don't
> recall the name right off.
A good book on the subject is The Wood & Canvas Canoe, by Jerry Stelmok
and Rollin Thurlow, (1987) published by Old Bridge Press, Camden East,
Ontario.
The post by Don Haines covers the other points pretty well. The
cracking may also be caused by a poor filler. I'm not totally up to
speed on this stuff but call 1-800-574-8375 and ask for Geoff. If as Don
mentions you have some rib and plank work to do, now is the time and
then recanvas - it's not difficult or too expensive.
Donald Haines
In article <329C2A...@fox.nstn.ca>, Steve Hurlbut <hur...@fox.nstn.ca> writes:
>I have an old cedar canvas canoe of unknown origin. The canvas is in
>reasonable shape, however it has been painted over the years with many
>layers of (obviously) inappropriate paint. The paint is very cracked
>and chipping. I would like to strip it down and refinish it but am
>unsure how to proceed. Would chemical stripper be OK to use? Would
>the canvas need to be resealed? What is the best paint to use for
>repainting? Any help would be appreciated.
>*****************************************************
>* Steve Hurlbut and Kate Moran
>* Three Fathom Harbour
>* Nova Scotia
>*****************************************************
Hi,
I recently did the same to a Chestnut. The paint that was used on it was house
paint! Boy was it cracked! I was very reluctant to use chemical strippers because
of a fear that they would get into the canvas. I decided that the best option was to
carefully sand off the paint until I got down to the original paint and then to take
off the outside of the original paint. There were a few spots where I got through
to the canvas but all in all about 99.5% of the hull was down to the filler.
I used some bondo on the small patches of canvas and sanded it down. The painting
was with Interlux Marine Enamel, 3 coats and sanded between coats. It looks great
now!
A few other questions to ask you. Is there any rot at the ends under the decks?
It's fairly common. You may need to replace some of the wood or stabilize it with
epoxy if it isn't too far gone.
Are there any broken ribs or planks? If there are you might want to replace them
and recanvas the canoe afterward. It's as much work to strip and repaint as it is to
recanvas and paint.... and there's no sense going through all the work if you have
to replace planks and ribs in the future.
Lastly, where in N.S. is Three Fathom Harbour? I'm heading to Halifax and the Valley
in about 3 weeks and could take a peek at it.
Don Haines
Tim Hewitt
Come by and visit us at the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association. There are
a couple of articles on recanvassing available and in my experience it
is generally less work to strip the old canvas off and recanvas than to
sand/strip/patch and repaint.
It takes only a few hours to stretch on new canvas, then filling takes a
few more, wait for the filler to cure (1-3 weeks) and paint. It's really
not difficult and the end product will last for 20+ years of normal use.
Good quality marine enamel is the paint of choice.
-Tim
--
Tim Hewitt - President, Downeast Chapter
Wooden Canoe Heritage Association, Ltd
http://www.wcha.org
Byron Funnell
Dan,
>
> The book you are thinking of is probably _The Wood & Canvas Canoe_ by
> Jerry Stelmock and Rollin Thurlow. If not, it should be.
Yes, one of two I think they wrote. This is "The wood and canvas canoe:
a complete guide to its history, construction, restoration, and
maintenace.
> > Canvas suggested is Grade A Domestic Midwest Duck No. 10. Sealed w/
> > Boiled linseed oil w/ 20% clear cuprinol. Heat almost to a boil to
> > apply.
>
> You are confusing reconditioning the hull planking with filling the canvas.
> The boiled linseed oil/cuprinol (I simply used boiled linseed oil thinned
> 50% with turpentine) is for conditioning the outside of the hull prior
> to canvassing. This is said to restore some of the resiliency of the
> wood, and help to prevent water uptake. Personally, I don't see where
> there is any advantage to using cuprinol here; if the canoe is going to
> be treated such that the cedar would rot, Cuprinol isn't going to help.
Actually, the author did use the Cuprinol on the canvas to help resist
molds, mildews, and the like. It is for the canvas and not for the wood
in this application.
> Canvas is traditionally filled with a silica/ boiled linseed oil compound.
> Some folks are now using a water-based airplane dope filler that is lighter
> and dries quickly. Long term performance seems to be up in the air still.
My understanding here was that originally the real filler was a lead
based solution, paint, but it is not encouraged for obvious reasons. He
made "mitts" out of canvas scraps and would work a 3' x 3' area at a
time rubbing the linseed oil/ cuprinol in w/ the mitts. I think it was
about three coats. Oh yes, before the coating he would also burn the nap
from the canvas w/ a torch.
> I recommend using a good quality marine paint. I've used Pettit and Interlux products.
I have saved this message out for this coming summers project reference.
Thanks for the tips.
Kurt Bouman
Byron Funnell wrote:
> > >Sealed w/
> > > Boiled linseed oil w/ 20% clear cuprinol. Heat almost to a boil to
> > > apply.
> > You are confusing reconditioning the hull planking with filling the canvas.
> > The boiled linseed oil/cuprinol (I simply used boiled linseed oil thinned
> > 50% with turpentine) is for conditioning the outside of the hull prior
> > to canvassing. This is said to restore some of the resiliency of the
> > wood, and help to prevent water uptake.
> molds, mildews, and the like. It is for the canvas and not for the wood
> in this application.
I've seen a canoe builder Cuprinol the hull as well as the canvas.
But--important to point out--there's no way a linseed oil/cuprinol solution could
fill the weave of the canvas. That takes a filler material (historically, white
lead; then silica; now, for some anyway--including Rollin Thurlow, last I knew--
water-based). The liquid alone would not provide a nice finish--nor would it
waterproof the canvas.
> > Canvas is traditionally filled with a silica/ boiled linseed oil compound.
> > Some folks are now using a water-based airplane dope filler that is lighter
> > and dries quickly. Long term performance seems to be up in the air still.
I'd like to hear from people who've used both current fillers--the oil-based
silica that one rubs in, and the water-based compound one paints on. Can anyone
provide a comparison? IE, time, cost, durability, finish, ease of application,
toxicity--that sort of thing?
--
Kurt Bouman Les vieux chiens
boum...@uidaho.edu ont plus de dignite.
http://www.uidaho.edu/~boum9534/
Department of English --Samuel Beckett
University of Idaho
Moscow, ID 83844 "All forward--------HANG ON!!"
Dale Brown
hur...@fox.nstn.ca,Internet writes:
I have an old cedar canvas canoe of unknown origin. The canvas is in
reasonable shape, however it has been painted over the years with many
layers of (obviously) inappropriate paint. The paint is very cracked
and chipping. I would like to strip it down and refinish it but am
unsure how to proceed. Would chemical stripper be OK to use? Would
the canvas need to be resealed? What is the best paint to use for
repainting? Any help would be appreciated.
--
*****************************************************
* Steve Hurlbut and Kate Moran
* Three Fathom Harbour
* Nova Scotia
*****************************************************
Steve,
This sounds like it's going to be your winter project out in the garage!
Have a great winter!
db
Tim Hewitt
Kurt Bouman wrote:
[clip]
> I've seen a canoe builder Cuprinol the hull as well as the canvas.
> But--important to point out--there's no way a linseed oil/cuprinol solution could
> fill the weave of the canvas. That takes a filler material (historically, white
> lead; then silica; now, for some anyway--including Rollin Thurlow, last I knew--
> water-based). The liquid alone would not provide a nice finish--nor would it
> waterproof the canvas.
Since you can now buy canvas that is pre-treated with a
mildew/fungicide, I don't know anyone who is treating canvas themselves
anymore. Canvas quality has improved dramatically over the last few
years, and for the occasional builder, buying pre-treated canvas from
Northwoods Canoe is worth the extra pennies.
> I'd like to hear from people who've used both current fillers--the oil-based
> silica that one rubs in, and the water-based compound one paints on. Can anyone
> provide a comparison? IE, time, cost, durability, finish, ease of application,
> toxicity--that sort of thing?
[clip]
Rollin has also abandoned the water based filler in favor of his older
formula oil-based one. The water based filler did not have the same
longevity as the oil based silica filler (I think the Conovers got one
season out of it!). Jerry (Island Falls) still uses White Lead, as do
many of the builders in Canada and a few others in the US. The lead
based filler is arguably easier to get a smooth finish from. When I
discussed the health issues with Jerry a few months ago, he asked me if
I'd ever heard of "silicosis" or something like that, which is caused by
breathing too much silica. The moral of the story is wear a respirator
when sanding filler :).
I have not had any problems getting a smooth finish from Rollin's
oil-based filler and will continue to use it.
Dan Miller
Kurt Bouman wrote:
> I've seen a canoe builder Cuprinol the hull as well as the canvas.
> But--important to point out--there's no way a linseed oil/cuprinol solution could
> fill the weave of the canvas. That takes a filler material (historically, white
> lead; then silica; now, for some anyway--including Rollin Thurlow, last I knew--
> water-based). The liquid alone would not provide a nice finish--nor would it
> waterproof the canvas.
This last bit is interesting, seeing how Rollin markets the linseed
based
filler. If he is switching to water based fillers, I'd like to know why
and
which one.
>
> > > Canvas is traditionally filled with a silica/ boiled linseed oil compound.
> > > Some folks are now using a water-based airplane dope filler that is lighter
> > > and dries quickly. Long term performance seems to be up in the air still.
>
> I'd like to hear from people who've used both current fillers--the oil-based
> silica that one rubs in, and the water-based compound one paints on. Can anyone
> provide a comparison? IE, time, cost, durability, finish, ease of application,
> toxicity--that sort of thing?
From what I understand, the main reason for using water-based filler is
its
fast drying time - you can paint almost immediately (I think waiting
till the
next day is recommended), whereas linseed based fillers require a curing
time
of at least a month, and even then may *possibily* have future problems
with
paint blisters (see discussion on WCHA bulletin board about this). I
have heard
(secondhand from someone that worked for him) that Tom Mackenzie of the
Loon
Works might be having trouble with paint adhesion over water based
fillers
over time - I have not spoken with Tom directly about this. Tom
supplies
several folks around here with the water based filler, which I don't
know the
exact product, but is something out of the airplane industry. Cost is
about the same for Rollin's and the airplane dope - about $40 to fill a
16' canoe with #10 canvas.
I recently visited Jim Suffield of Old Squaw Canoes, and he uses Old
Towns'
filler recipe - a linseed/silica based formula. He states definitively
that it *will* crack over time. Several folks are again going back to
white
lead in their filler. I spoke with Gil Cramer of the Wooden Canoe Shop
on my
way to assembly this summer and asked him why. Aside from the obvious
benefit
of acting as a preservative, he says it fills the weave better, sands
out nicer,
and requires significantly less sanding. I find it interesting that
Bill Clemens,
who is a dealer for "environmentally friendly" fininishes, is a an
advocate
(and supplier) of lead-based filler.
A friend experimented with filling with alkyd paint, and has two
problems. First,
the canvas, which started nicely stretched, now is loose and sagging in
places.
(we canvassed my boat the same time, which I've filled with Rollin's
filler,
and it remains beautifully tight). Also, the paint was thin enough to
saok through
the canvas, and it looks as though it may be adhering to the hull
somewhat -
we'll know more when he starts using it in spring.
I've been researching somewhat Penn Yan's historic filling method. Penn
Yan
was heavy into the aircraft industry as well as building boats, and
their
canoes were filled with airplane dopes. Basically, a real light canvas
(tablecloth
weight) was filled with successive coats of butyrate dope, nitrate dope,
and
dope with aluminum in it for UV protection. I tried to find info about
durability and such from the aircraft homebuilders, and recieved lots of
good info, though much of it is conflicting. Cost is prohibitive
though,
roughly 2 - 3 times more expensive than other methods.
Cheers,
Dan