27 sea kayaks tested
Niels Kistrup
In the beginning of the year, I started shopping for a new sea kayak. My
criteria are:
1) 46 lbs or less.
2) 15 to 17 feet in length.
3) < 23" in width. (Jeff Cooper, of H2O Outfitters, convinced me to
drop this.)
Using "Canoe & Kayak"'s annual buyer's guide, I compiled a list of all
boats that met the above criteria. Then I contacted manufacturers to
find out which boats
were available for a test paddle & collect more distinguishing info on
the boats that could be test paddled. This eliminated 10 of the 27
boats from the original list.
THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA is fit/comfort. If the boat that you choose
is uncomfortable, you will not want to paddle. This eliminated 12 out
of the 17 remaining boats.
Out of the 5 boats remaining, 3 were eliminated during test paddle
phase. Seda's Gypsy was a lousy tracker w. poor initial stability.
When the Seda Swift is compared to the Current Designs Gulfstream, it
looses all the critical tests. Valley Canoe Products' Romany 16 was
another good boat that was VERY fast, but was a little too snug around
the thighs. (Heaven forbid that I gain a few lbs.)
This leaves me with 2 boats, that I'm still deciding on, Current Designs
Gulfstream & the Dagger Meridian SK.
LIST OF REJECTED SEA KAYAKS
Company Model Why Rejected
------- ----- ------------
West Side Boat Shop Umnak No longer manufactured.
West Side Boat Shop Seafarer Solander (FC) Fiberglass (FC) model no
longer
manufactured.
Easy Rider Eskimo 16 B/H (FC) Back hatch not needed.
Easy Rider Eskimo 16 B/H Back hatch not needed.
Easy Rider Eskimo 16 B (FC) FC is not worth the $ savings.
Easy Rider Eskimo 15 CRX 3G Unavailable for demo.
Rainforest Designs Nimbus Horizon Unavailable for demo.
Rainforest Designs Nimbus Njak Unavailable for demo.
Rainforest Designs Nimbus Solander + Unavailable for demo.
West Side Boat Shop Seafarer K-1 Unavailable for demo.
Cal-Tek Engineering Caspian Seal Entry too small.
Cal-Tek Engineering Greenland Entry too small.
Current Designs Slipstream Entry too small.
Seaward Kayaks Luna Entry too small.
West Side Boat Shop Seafarer Solander Entry too small.
Wilderness Systems Sparrow Hawk Entry too small.
Boreal Design Narwhal Cockpit is too large.
Easy Rider Eskimo 16 B Cockpit is too large.
Easy Rider Eskimo 16 CRX 3G Cockpit is too large.
Seaward Kayaks Navigator Cockpit is too large.
Seaward Kayaks Tyee Cockpit is too large.
Seda Products Viking Cockpit is too large.
Seda Products Gypsy Poor tracking, initial
stability,
& workmanship.
Seda Products Swift Lost to the Gulfstream.
Valley Canoe Prods. Romany 16 Not as comfortable as the
Gulfstream or Meridian.
KAYAKS TEST PADDLED
Seaward Seda Seda V.C.P. C.D. Dagger
Test Tyee Gypsy Swift Romany 16 Gulfstream Meridian
Fit/Comfort D B C B A A-
Entry/Exit A A A A B+ A
Workmanship A D D C A B
Init. Stability A C A B A- B-
Water Bottle A A A B A B
Secondary Stability B C B A- B+ A
Tracking B D B B A C
Maneuverability B B C B B A-
Speed C C A A B B
SAWLynch
Your review??? sorry but I'm not familiar with who you are. Just curous as I'm
an avid seakayaker BCU 4Star and Level 2 coach with Canoe Safety Cert as well.
What are your credentials, what is your size and wieght? What is your personal
boat and how did you test these boats...... day long multi mile trips in real
ocean conditions? Demo day at LL bean? Do you work in the industry?
Details, details details please.
Why not include ease of rolling? Outfitting? Watertightness of bulkheads,
hatchcovers, deck rigging? Tested using Rudder,? Skeg? where included or
all without any use of rudder or skegs?
For me, Gulfstream yuck! Way to huge for me, hated it. But good choice
for lots of people. I Liked Slipstream alot....much better fit. Love Romany
& Meridaian, fit my size and preferences more. This stuff is so subjective
anyway.... By the way, Romany is NOT VCP, they import it through Great River
Outfitters.. It is a Nigel Dennis boat.
Again details please. Not being critical honestly, just curious. I've paddled
many of these, some extensively some only at demos some not at all so just
interested in how you came to your ratings and to your experience.
Thanks,
Sharon Winter Lynch
SAWLynch
liv2padl
Yes, and so what ??? Testing boats is such a subjective and personal
experience that your data have little to no bearing on a particular boats
performance for another paddler. Your size, weight, paddling skills,
assessment conditions, length of test paddle, and etc. all significantly
impact any boats performance. There are many terrific boats you didn't
look at including P&H Sirius, VCP Skerray, some of Fosters boats. While i
greatly respect Jeff C's opinion (i'm an instructor with H2Outfitters)
inre: the width of a boat and would agree in principal that greater than
23" is getting pretty beamy, the more important factor is the effective
wetted surface and hull configuration. Some 23 inch boats are fast and
efficient and some narrower boats are cumbersome. Finally, the conditions
under which you intend to paddle have a large bearing on the boat you
choose. One might not want a 16 foot "performance boat" if your major
paddling experiences will be on open water for extended trips. On the
other hand, if your paddling will be day or weekend trips along rocky
coastlines with lots of hydraulic action, a 17.5 foot 'cruiser' like a P&H
Orion wouldn't be most suitable for you.
<°){{{{>< <°){{{{>< <°){{{{>< <°){{{{>< <°){{{{>< <°){{{{><
Mark Rickert
When I read the initial review I found it interesting. It is
the kind of feedback the industry and other users need. It is an
representation of what this person looked for when buying a boat.
about the only thing I would have liked is a general body description.
When I read this response I wanted to slap the author of the
response along side the head with a large, heavy, paddle. Your
"credentials" DO NOT make you an arbiter of what is "good". If you
really wanted the answers to the questions why not ask politely? I
sincerely hope you paddle better than you write.
just my .02
Glenn Ward
On Sun, 17 May 1998 22:24:03 -0400, Niels Kistrup
<NielsK...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>This leaves me with 2 boats, that I'm still deciding on, Current Designs
>Gulfstream & the Dagger Meridian SK.
>
If you've gone to all that effort to eliminate the others and have
come down to only two, I'd suggest you just flip a coin.
P.S. If you don't feel comfortable after the coin toss, it means you
really want the other.
--
Glenn Ward
gw...@sentex.net
RWFarnum
<<. . .sorry but I'm not familiar with who you are. Just curous as I'm an avid
seakayaker BCU 4Star and Level 2 coach with Canoe Safety Cert as well.>>
You're the woman Sharon!. Finally, a certified boatologist in the newsgroup to
advise all of us if we have questions. Excellente Senor(ita)! Canoe too? Hoo
hoo!
-Ray :-}
Oci-One Kanubi
Niels Kistrup <NielsK...@compuserve.com> typed:
> [snip] THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA is fit/comfort.
> If the boat that you choose is uncomfortable, you will
> not want to paddle. This eliminated 12 out of the 17
> remaining boats.
> Out of the 5 boats remaining, 3 were eliminated during
> test paddle phase. [snip]
Niels, you may have made a mistake here. In many cases, fit/comfort can
be modified by proper outfitting, whereas the performance
characteristics of the hull can never change. You eliminated 2/3 of
your candidates on the basis of a criterion that "ain't necessarily so",
where some of those 12 boats might have had truly superior performance
characteristics.
--
Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always.
OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265
Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers' Ass'n,
Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak
Ass'n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass'n, ACA, and AWA
Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address
Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon.
Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
SAWLynch
>>Again details please. Not being critical honestly, just curious. I
>When I read this response I wanted to slap the author of the
>response along side the head with a large, heavy, paddle.
Wow, what a violent response! I expressly said I wanted to know how he
collected his data, that's all. I have been in the paddling industry as a
kayak buyer for retail for over 13 years, have studied the boat lines
extensively to offer customers an appropriate variety of styles appropriate for
the many different types, sizes, paddling needs of my customers. In working
for an outfitter as instructor in Sea Kayaking for 3 years for an outfitter
that has over 70+ mostly glass boats in his fleet I have seen peoples ideas of
a good boat change drastically atter spending a whole day in the boat as
opposed to their initial opinion upon getting in it for the first time.......
That's really my point. At demo days I suggest that people get back into the
first boat they tried at the end of the day to see if their oppion has changed
as they have tried more boats on gotten more comfortable throughout the day.
This is of course more important for new paddlers.
Sea kayaker makes tests on boats regularly and use a variety of sized and
experienced paddlers and still their data is always under fire. Many
variables account for peoples preference and the right choice for them. Their
are many good boats out there. I have my own bias for sure but when I
recommend a boat to a client or customer I put their needs, wants, desires,
ability into the equation, the boats I like may be totally inappropriate for
them. Thats the buyers job, not to buy just what they like but what is
appropriate for their customers. I am a professional in what I do. I do not
need to apologize for that. I have many thankful former customers, students,
clients because I do not inflict my preference and have learned to be
objective.
> Your
>"credentials" DO NOT make you an arbiter of what is "good".
Again, what is GOOD for me may not be what is good for someone else.......THAT
WAS THE POINT. I by the way did not post a listing of my opinions on all these
boats...... I don't feel I'm qualified to do that as I have NOT paddled all
these boats in open water for long times, some yes, not all and many that were
not listed I've paddled alot and have opionions, but that's all they are my
opionions. I guess that since with my experience I do not feel qualified, I
was wondering what makes the original author qualified and maybe that colored
the flavor of my post.
I apologize sincerely to the original author and to any one else who may have
taken offense.
There was no malice intended to the original author or to yourself. I do
however feel required to respond to those types of posts because of my
experience and my goal is to help lots of people get envolved in this GREAT
sport and have fun.
Thanks for listening.
Happy Paddling.
Sharon "Winter" Lynch
Niels Kistrup
Mark,
I'm 183 lbs, 5' 10 1/2", w. wide hips. That last dimension has been killer for
fitting into boats like the Slipstream. Since the review was text, extracted from a
series of Excel spreadsheets, it wasn't complete. There were a lot of foot notes in
the comparison table. Besides, the research isn't complete. It's down to the
Dagger Meridian SK & the Current Designs Gulfstream.
Niels
Mark Rickert wrote:
> When I read the initial review I found it interesting. It is
> the kind of feedback the industry and other users need. It is an
> representation of what this person looked for when buying a boat.
> about the only thing I would have liked is a general body description.
>
> When I read this response I wanted to slap the author of the
> response along side the head with a large, heavy, paddle. Your
> "credentials" DO NOT make you an arbiter of what is "good". If you
> really wanted the answers to the questions why not ask politely? I
> sincerely hope you paddle better than you write.
>
> just my .02
>
> On 18 May 1998 08:29:18 GMT, sawl...@aol.com (SAWLynch) wrote:
>
> >Your review??? sorry but I'm not familiar with who you are. Just curous as I'm
> >an avid seakayaker BCU 4Star and Level 2 coach with Canoe Safety Cert as well.
Niels Kistrup
I agree that testing is subjective. This was meant as example to illustrate some
of the factors involved in shopping for a boat. As Sharon pointed out, my list of
criteria was no where near exhaustive, but was sufficient for me. (Well maybe
not, since I can't decide between the Meridian SK & the Gulfstream.)
My tests DO have bearing for another paddler, another paddler might weight things
differently. I shot down the Seda Gypsy because it didn't track well, but someone
else might rate it high because of it's great maneuverabiliy.
Some of the boats that you mentioned didn't meet my size criteria, while others
weren't mentioned in C&K's annual buyer's guide, therefore they never made it to
my list.
Niels
Niels Kistrup
Glenn,
I'm placing an order for a kevlar boat on the 20th (1st day of my credit
card's billing cycle). The choice between the 2 boats should be more
decisive, so I don't start 2nd guessing the first time I run into trouble.
Since neither choice is a bad one, the coin flip wouldn't hurt.
Niels
liv2padl
> I agree that testing is subjective. This was meant as example to
illustrate some
> of the factors involved in shopping for a boat. As Sharon pointed out,
my list of
> criteria was no where near exhaustive, but was sufficient for me. (Well maybe
> not, since I can't decide between the Meridian SK & the Gulfstream.)
> My tests DO have bearing for another paddler, another paddler might
weight things
> differently. I shot down the Seda Gypsy because it didn't track well,
but someone
> else might rate it high because of it's great maneuverabiliy.
Maneuverability is in the "eye of the beholder" -- or more accurately the
skill of the paddler. High level paddlers might make a specific boat
dance while a less skilled one might not be able to turn it at all. Some
boats require a good stiff lean to render them maneuverable -- something a
beginning paddler probably could not handle. Tracking too, is a personal
encounter with a boat. I think you've done a terrific job of narrowing
down a large number of boats to one or two that will keep you happy for
years -- but as to the application of your very subjective data to anyone
else, i'm afraid i just don't buy it. I guess it really does point out
that there are an awful lot of boats out there and before anybody lays out
big bucks to own one, you need to paddle-paddle-paddle before you decide
on one. happy paddling. dan
Rollan Weed
Wow, I can feel the heat from here! I answered Niels directly with some of
the comments you have all made. My advice was to also check-out P&H, North
Shore & Mega...(i.e. more boats). His answer was hat he had spent his time
doing his research and was happy with his decision. My "credentials" match
those of Sharon (also BCU Certified Sea Kayaker, 20yr.s paddling) and I
would hope to never become so arrogant as to think my "credentials" gave me
the final word in a boat choice for someone else. We all started somewhere
with a boat we thought comfortable and safe then moved up from there. What
ever boat Niels buys will be the right boat for him and his comfort level.
SAWLynch
>> Your
>>"credentials" DO NOT make you an arbiter of what is "good".
>
>else.......THAT
>WAS THE POINT.
PLEASE PLEASE OK OK I'M SORRY, SORRY SORRY!
EVERYONE CAN SCREW UP ONCE IN A WHILE, WHAT MORE CAN I SAY????? I WAS WRONG IN
HOW I RESPONDED ORIGINALLY, CAN WE GET OVER THAT PART AND BACK TO HELPING THIS
PERSON OUT? I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR, HE'S FORGIVEN ME,
WE'RE COOL, I'VE BEEN HIT OVER THE HEAD WITH LARGE HEAVY PADDLE OVER THE WEB,
PUNISHED ENOUGH I THINK??
HOPEFULLY FORGIVEN AND HOPEFULLY TO BE FORGOTTEN! : )
SHARON
Niels Kistrup
Richard,
I appreciated your insights in the past, but this time you're partially
wrong: If a boat is too tight, it's too tight. PERIOD. However, I think
you have something for the larger boats, such as the Tyee, where additional
thigh & knee padding could have made a difference. But how do you prove
that in a test paddle situation?
Niels
Niels Kistrup
Dan,
>> I guess it really does point out that there are an awful lot of boats out there
and
>> before anybody lays out big bucks to own one, you need to
>> paddle-paddle-paddle before you decide on one.
Amen to that! And if I had paddled my current boat for another summer, and
performed this same search, the opinions would have been different among the boats
that I fit in.
Niels
John Fereira
In article <356089...@cpmx.saic.NoSpam.com>, Richard....@cpmx.saic.NoSpam.com wrote:
>Niels Kistrup <NielsK...@compuserve.com> typed:
>
>> [snip] THE MOST IMPORTANT CRITERIA is fit/comfort.
>> If the boat that you choose is uncomfortable, you will
>> not want to paddle. This eliminated 12 out of the 17
>> remaining boats.
>
>> Out of the 5 boats remaining, 3 were eliminated during
>> test paddle phase. [snip]
>
>Niels, you may have made a mistake here. In many cases, fit/comfort can
>be modified by proper outfitting, whereas the performance
>characteristics of the hull can never change. You eliminated 2/3 of
>your candidates on the basis of a criterion that "ain't necessarily so",
>where some of those 12 boats might have had truly superior performance
>characteristics.
I noticed that as well. I noticed, for example, that the Wilderness
Systems "Sparrow Hawk" was rejected because the entry was too
small but it's bigger cousin, the "Artic Hawk" wasn't even listed. I
realize that you can only test paddle boats that are available but
there were quite a few vendors boats that were not even included
some of which offer boats designed for larger framed individuals.
>
John Fereira
ja...@cornell.edu
Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org)
Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.
johnb
Of course boat handling is most important in the evaluation of different
sea kayaks. There are other considerations though.
The question not addressed in this 27 boat evaluation (and I do apologize
for missing the beginning of this thread) is quality of boat construction.
What the sea kayak industry needs is a JD Powers Company evaluation of the
quality of sea kayaks.
This isn't going to happen though, this industry is just too small.
However, having looked at the quality of sea kayaks in general, I can say
that many, if not most of the manufacturers are pretty sloppy in their QA.
Someone should take on the job of gathering information re quality of
construction by manufacturer.
Suggested topics would be:
-quality of fit and finish
-sea worthiness of seams, bulkheads and hatches (i.e., does the boat leak)
-actual weight of the boat versus spec'd weight
-cockpit coaming and seat placement (i.e., are they centered and even in
the hull
-operational reliability of skegs, rudders, etc.
-willingness of manufacturer and dealer to stand behind their product with
warranty repairs, etc.
Any volunteers?
John
Rollan Weed <cth...@calliope.muse.umb.edu> wrote in article
<6jsfch$9...@hydra.umb.edu>...
>
> Wow, I can feel the heat from here! I answered Niels directly with some
of
------lots of snips-------
Oci-One Kanubi
Niels Kistrup <NielsK...@compuserve.com> typed:
> I appreciated your insights in the past, but this time you're partially
> wrong: If a boat is too tight, it's too tight. PERIOD. However, I think
> you have something for the larger boats, such as the Tyee, where additional
> thigh & knee padding could have made a difference. But how do you prove
> that in a test paddle situation?
A-firmative, Niels; when it's too tight you can do nothing about it,
unless you are an experienced boater, compulsive, and *really* wanting
to try a particular hull, in which case you might redesign the interior
fixtures. But that's not a reasonable suggestion for the survey you
conducted.
As far as the problem wrt test-paddling, two things: first, if one of
the boats you finally do settle on fully satisfies you, then you have
really lost very little by excluding the ones that don't fit; though one
of them might have won out through better performance if you had been
tight in the boat, it would probably have been a marginal improvement
over the one you finally choose. Second, I 'd have to say that it's up
to the dealer; if he wants to make sales, then it's incumbent upon him
to have removable outfitting on hand so that everyone can perform a
valid test.
It's not really an issue, I guess, for you, since you have identified
two satisfactory candidates, but, for other readers of this thread who
might be preparing for a series of test-paddling: if you are loose in
the boat you are about to test, ASK the dealer if he has some preformed
foam fittings!
Nice to see you here in r.b.p, Niels. Is there any life left in
CompuServe:OUTDOORS:S9_Canoe/Kayak/Raft? 'Sbin a over a year now since
I've checked in there. Finally let my subscription lapse.
Niels Kistrup
Richard,
>> Is there any life left in CompuServe:OUTDOORS:S9_Canoe/Kayak/Raft?
No! It's funny you should mention it today, since I just finished deleting all
traces of it from TAPCIS. It's been dead for a while, I finally gave up on it.
BTW, I ended up ordering a kevlar Dagger Meridian SK, w. day hatch. Have no need
for the later, but Sharon Lynch & Jersey Paddler said it helps with rescues.
Niels
SAWLynch
>BTW, I ended up ordering a kevlar Dagger Meridian SK, w. day hatch. Have no
>need
>for the later, but Sharon Lynch & Jersey Paddler said it helps with rescues.
>
>
Lets clarify this a little OK?
It's the THIRD bulkhead, just behind the cockpit that is nesessary with the day
hatch that helps with the rescues, with slanted bulkhead immediatly behind seat
in a T rescue water comes from bow hits that bulkhead and dumps out, leaving
you a dry boat to get into. Very effecient and fast, In self rescue situation,
that much less water for you to pump out. The day hatch improves safety
margin because you now can access safety equip, gear yourself while on the
water, you can open that hatch, bulkheaded on either side and not risk water
getting in main compartments which would make the boat far less stable. Great
for extra energy food, drink too! I keep first aid kit, emergency boat repair
kit, extra flares etc and spare pc of Fuzzy Rubber and skull cap in case I get
cold. Plus water, power bars, Gu, honey whatever. Accessing honey from my
hatch helped me once with a fellow paddler who was getting hypothermic and
needed energy up to be able to paddle enough to assist in getting him to shore
and warmed up. So to me.....honey is safety equipment now! I'm sure you'll
find your own needs to put in your hatch! :-)
Best always,
Sharon
Oci-One Kanubi
Niels,
> I ended up ordering a kevlar Dagger Meridian SK
Congratulations! I know you'll love it!
-Richard
Jan Doggen
Hello all,
Just back froma three week holiday on Corsica (2000+ meters high instead of
sea level), so I missed the beginning of this thread.
Are there test results somewhere online?
Thanks,
Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jan Doggen Masters Software mas...@xs4all.nl
P.O. Box 697 2300 RA Leiden The Netherlands
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
** Specialists in multimedia software for education and presentation **
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Usage of this email address for commercial purposes costs US$ 50 per
message. By using this email address you agree to this condition.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Niels Kistrup
Jan,
It was a VERY subjective list, from someone with only one year's worth of
experience. I extracted an Excel workbook into a .TXT file, but I can't find
the text file anywhere. If you want, I can zip up the Excel workbook & send
that to you.
Niels
John Fereira
In article <358DB4F0...@yahoo.com>, Niels Kistrup <NielsK...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jan,
>
>It was a VERY subjective list, from someone with only one year's worth of
>experience. I extracted an Excel workbook into a .TXT file, but I can't find
>the text file anywhere. If you want, I can zip up the Excel workbook & send
>that to you.
>
>Niels
I don't recall the original poster of the "27 sea kayaks tested" article
claiming that it was anything more then a subjective list. This may come
as a suprise but I imagine that there are quite a few paddlers on this
group with "only" one years worth of experience. For those people a
subjective list from someone else with about the same experience may
even prove to be more valuable than a grizzled elitist suggesting that
only top of the line kevlar boats are worth considering.