Pyranah is screwing me!!!
Rvrunr2
Let me start this arguement by saying that I do not hold the
representitive of the above mentioned company responsible for the
following.
PYRANAH IS SCREWING ME!!, and as you might gather, I am none too pleased.
A month or so ago, I took my Acrobat 270 down Possum creek. The water was
a little on the low side but still above the min. run line. Having run
this creek numerous times in my Freefall LT, I decided to make it a little
more difficult by running it in my Acrobat.
After running a couple drops very cleanly, I went over about a 3 foot drop
on to a very small, yet perfectly rounded rock. I landed on it squarely
under my seat. I though that I had heard a splitting sound but didn't
really know what it was. About a minute later, I realized. My boat was
filling up with water at about 5 times the normal rate. I got out to
investigate the hull and discovered two small cracks under my seat.
As you can imagine, I was pretty upset, not to mention wondering how I was
going to get out of the gorge. I decided that I could paddle out a lot
faster than I could hike the boat out a pressed on. At first I was only
having to dump the boat out every 10-15 minutes, but that number was
getting smaller and smaller. By the time I reached the take out, the boat
had another crack in it and it was three times the size as the other two.
I wasn't too upset though because the boat was only about 7 months old and
I figured that Pyranah would replace it. WRONG!!!!!!!
After giving the boat to my local Pyranah rep., I waited for about a month
for the new shipment of boats that was supposed to be coming over. The
other day, I got a call from the rep. saying that there was nothing wrong
with the boat from a manufacturers point of view and that they were not
going to honor the warranty. He said the main reason for this was that I
had done too hard of a creek with the boat!
Wait a minute, I don't remember seeing that or hearing that before I
bought the boat. And further more, who's to say that Possum creek is too
hard? Yes it is steeper that the North Chick, but no where near the Bear,
or Falling Water. Doesn't it also depend on the paddler as to what is
hard and what is not? The rapid that it broke on could have been on the
Tellico. I broke a Stunt bat in the exact same place a year ago on a very
tame creek in almost the same manner. Unfortunetly, the warranty was up.
I also broke my buddie's Acrobat 270 last weekend on the Little River
Canyon in AL in the same place on a very similar rapid. However, he got a
new one the next day with no questions asked from NOC, and his was two
months older that mine!
I think the real reason they are not going to warrant the boat is that
almost everyone is breaking their Acrobats and they can't afford to give
everybody a new one. So I guess it is me who must suffer.
The lesson to be learned from this is not to keep rodeo boats off of
creeks, but to make sure when you buy a boat, that the manufacturer is
going to stand behind their product and not give their customers the run
around. Most companies that do, don't stay companies for long.
---Jon Lord
Bo Eakens
Rvrunr2 wrote:
>
> Let me start this arguement by saying that I do not hold the
> representitive of the above mentioned company responsible for the
> following.
>
> PYRANAH IS SCREWING ME!!, and as you might gather, I am none too pleased.
> A month or so ago, I took my Acrobat 270 down Possum creek. The water was
> a little on the low side but still above the min. run line. Having run
<SNIP>
>
> I think the real reason they are not going to warrant the boat is that
> almost everyone is breaking their Acrobats and they can't afford to give
> everybody a new one. So I guess it is me who must suffer.
>
> The lesson to be learned from this is not to keep rodeo boats off of
> creeks, but to make sure when you buy a boat, that the manufacturer is
> going to stand behind their product and not give their customers the run
> around. Most companies that do, don't stay companies for long.
> http://web.frontier.net/jacks/kweld.html
> ---Jon Lord
Your the guy that wanted to boycott Lightening paddles, right. Now
screwed by Pyranha. Sounds like you might need to find a new hobby.
Should we all boycott Pyranha now? A better plan might be to buy a
plastic welder and repair the boat. Compared to the cost of a boat it's
a small investment, especially with the number of boats you seem to be
breaking. The good thing about fixing 'em is you don't have to re-outfit
if you have spent time getting a good fit. You can find Jack's welding
page at http://web.frontier.net/jacks/kweld.html. These repairs
work as I have seen several repaired boats hold up well on some steep,
land on the rock runs.
tracy clapp
John Lords writes:
"The lesson to be learned from this is not to keep rodeo boats off of
creeks, but to make sure when you buy a boat, that the manufacturer
going to stand behind their product and not give their customers the run
around."
Dear John,
There is a limit to what any piece of plastic can take. I have broken
other companies boats, at under a year, and had to pay the cost of
replacement. I have broken a friends boat, under a year similar crack to
yours John, and the company made me pay the cost of replacement. And, yes
John, it was one of the big companies.
Nothing lasts forever. Pyranha stands behind its product but you can not
go smack your new car into a wall and then go tell the manufacturer you
want a new one. I put an end cap on your boat after you had had it less
than a week and it was beat to hell then. Do you realistically believe
you haven't gotten a lot of wear out of your boat? If you think you
haven't I guess you have a right to be pissed off. Unfortunately the only
person who really knows this is you. I have to deal with people who break
their boats and it runs the gammut from people who tell me what actually
happened to people who claim they never ever hit a rock running BigDog
Creek at 40 cfs. I have had people screaming obscenities at me on the
phone when I know they are boldfaced lying to me. I don't mean you John
I just want you to see how it sometimes goes. If a boat lasts seven months
with very heavy use is there something wrong with the plastic?
I do agree that the warranty/guarantee should be made very clear to the
purchaser. Pyranha has made serious effort to do just that. Graham
Mackereth came to the US to talk with many big Pyranha dealers to
determine the best way to do that. The new warranty information should be
back from the printers and on its way with the next shipment of boats.
The boats are thicker for the US market and a new plastic is on the way --
one that will withstand more abuse than the other linear guys on the
market. I know this doesn't help your case John. I just want you to know
that efforts are being made to eliminate the problems you experienced.
Part of being one of the smaller companies -- compared to
Perception/Dagger empires -- is that sometimes we have to learn and make
mistakes. All I ever try to do is learn from what goes wrong.
I never meant to say that you couldn't boat certain runs but realistically
dropping onto rocks is way different than playing in holes. There is more
discussion of creek vs. rodeo boats in the newsgroup.
I am really sorry you feel screwed John. Keep boating and paddle whatever
boat you like best.
kindest regards,
tracy clapp
Dale A. Brown
In article <19961216130...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
rvr...@aol.com (Rvrunr2) wrote:
> :)After running a couple drops very cleanly, I went over
about a 3 foot drop
> :)on to a very small, yet perfectly rounded rock. I
landed on it squarely
> :)under my seat. I though that I had heard a splitting
sound but didn't
> :)really know what it was. About a minute later, I
realized. My boat was
> :)filling up with water at about 5 times the normal rate.
I got out to
> :)investigate the hull and discovered two small cracks
under my seat.
> :)As you can imagine, I was pretty upset, not to mention
wondering how I was
> :)going to get out of the gorge. I decided that I could
paddle out a lot
> :)faster than I could hike the boat out a pressed on. At
first I was only
> :)having to dump the boat out every 10-15 minutes, but
that number was
> :)getting smaller and smaller. By the time I reached the
take out, the boat
> :)had another crack in it and it was three times the size
as the other two.
Hey, please don't think me speaking from any pedestal, or
holy horse, but were you solo?
Were you carrying any medical/ rescue gear?
Were you carrying a breakdown paddle for emergency use?
If not, I can only recommend that you do so in the future.
I've been careless in the past, I've wrapped boats, and come
out unscathed. I was lucky, and I learned a lot from the
experience. I think I was getting a bit cocky with my
boating, and the big guy above smacked me around a bit to
get my attention. Maybe that's what's happening to you here.
You've just got to carry rescue gear. I mean you've just got
to do it. I don't want to hear any crap about weight. It's
part of the basic load. It's as necessary as a paddle or a
sprayskirt. My worst nightmare is hearing about a small team
of good boaters on a steep creek with no rescue gear
watching a friend drown because they haven't the means to
rescue, or assist. Try imagining living the rest of your
life with that nagging at you. Don't let it happen.
As for cracks in boats, go to the Auto store and look for a
roll of "radiator tape". It's usually black, and will stick
to anything, wet, or not. Duct tape is virtually useless for
wet surfaces, and will not withstand dynamic flexing. It
comes in little tiny rolls that are weightless (
essentially) and will fit almost anywhere. A must in any
kit.
> :)The other day, I got a call from the rep. saying that
there was nothing wrong
> :)with the boat from a manufacturers point of view and
that they were not
> :)going to honor the warranty.
Take a very good look at the manufacturer's published
warranty, and contact an attourney.Don't let this go. If
you're in the right, burn this company down. They "MUST" be
accountable for their products.
> :)He said the main reason for this was that I had done too
hard of a creek with the boat!
I doubt very seriously if there is any legalese in the
warranty to include, or exclude river difficulty. Sounds
like bs to me too.
> :)I think the real reason they are not going to warrant
the boat is that
> :)almost everyone is breaking their Acrobats and they
can't afford to give
> :)everybody a new one.
This may be the case. Are there many people in your
situation? Are these boats failing on a regular basis in the
field? I think we need a central reporting committee like
the USCKT, or the ACA to report these kind of failures/
potential dangers to, just as the FAA is there for the
Airline community. People should be warned about potentially
flawed equipment.
> :)The lesson to be learned from this is not to keep rodeo
boats off of
> :)creeks, but to make sure when you buy a boat, that the
manufacturer is
> :)going to stand behind their product and not give their
customers the run
> :)around.
> :)---Jon Lord
Good point. It pays to support the more reputable companies.
I recently had difficulties with Bibler tent, and agree
wholeheartedly with you. I thought an expensive product
would be supported and was wrong. You've just got to take
your chances sometimes. Nothings for sure is it?
Best of luck. Kepp this going. Go get 'em. Organise with
others who have suffered similar fates with the manufacture
and share legal expenses. If this is a real injustice,
you'll be doing the whole paddling community a good deed.
Dale
"Forgive them father, for they know not what they do."
josh tomberg
It truly sucks that Pyrahna is doing that but I'm not surprised at all.
here's how I see the pros and cons of Pyranha boats.
pro: Their designs shred and are really cool.
cons: Impex or whatever knows NOTHING about molding plastic.
The new ultralinear sucks and the old recycled stuff SUCKS HARDER.
The warranty department is PATHETIC and every pyrahna owner I've ever
spoken with that has broken a boat says that they will find a way to screw you.
Pyrahna has some killer boats but I can't afford to keep buying them when they break and
I find out the warranty is worthless. Clay, I'm sure you will have a field day with this
one but we all know that you never break boats because you float above the water on a
cloud of divine inspiration.
josh
tracy clapp
Josh,
Clay is a nice guy and not prone to the I'm a god ego bullshit that so
many good boaters have. He is an excellent boater who likes to paddle.
He doesn't have to go around with a "I'm a class V boater and better than
you" chip on his shoulder. And yes, he breaks boats. He paddles hard
steep stuff. Boats don't last forever and they never have. He used to
break other companies boats when he paddled them. I used to break other
companies boats before I started paddling Pyranhas. Guess what, the other
company, one of the big two, didn't replace the boats for free. They said
they were worn out and they would replace the shell at cost. It was fair
then and is fair now. I think a lot more people are paddling now at a
level where they just plain wear out boats than ever before. Do the
companies foot the bill? Pyranha has worked hard to improve on what they
have done before -- fixing outfitting complaints and improving designs.
The boats are better than ever. There are still improvements to be made
and they will be.
tracy clapp
Jimisnyder
Please Supply a Plug Shameless for Prijon Sales here cause they have
Plastic Supreme and the Public Should know.....
ha ha? JS
Whatafall
Well, did you bend over and drop your pants first?
Seriously - Some of the people who complain the loudest are the ones who
are abusing the warrany system and caused its demise. Tracy and I used to
be able to warranty boats, and anything with a thick, clean crack was
covered. Unfortunately, many owners drug their boats to the put-in
repeatedly and then cried "foul" when the plastic wore through. I
wouldn't warranty anything I can see light throught! If you want to run
Little Possum at 1' or Mill Creek a 0" maybe you should get wheels or just
bring some KY - cause you are going to get screwed when the boat breaks.
Impex warrantied several boats that were later found to be abused. If you
swim and your boat goes over a 20' falls onto rocks full of water - it is
not covered! Don't lie about what happened because when a company (any
company) finds out they will spread your name around. I know of people
that took an AX to their old boat just before the warranty ended, got a
new one, and sold it. Too bad Impex found out about it. It is getting
harder and harder to get a boat replaced by any company because there has
been so much abuse of the warranty system by scammers looking for a free
ride. It sucks for all of us, but especially when you REALLY DO get a bad
boat! If that is you, I am truely sorry. All the companies are getting
more strict, but the smaller ones have less room for error and may be
going a bit overboard. Impex and Pyranha are working out a new very
descriptive warranty system that, hopefully, will keep real problems fully
covered.
Sucks for Us - Clay Wright, Team Pyranha
Kyle Disque
Lemme get this straight,
1. You admit that your waranty is vague.
2. You admit that there's a problem with your plastic (you're maken' 'em
outta different plastic and thicker next year).
3. You tell us that landing on rocks is a no-no and voids the warenty.
And you're still not giving this man another boat?
Another question, you guys make creek boats, are they made out of different
plastic? Or is this "that creek was too hard" BS just another facet of the
sales prevention plan?
What's next: "You boated when it was too cold", "Your feet are too big",
or "You didn't wash your boat often enough"?
I guess you've established your customer base here in r.b.p.
You work on commision right?
Watch out for Pyrannas,
Kyle
BTW: yeah sure, your linear will be the best ever, no really. Linear plastic
rules, it must be better, all the builder are using it! Cross link
sucked. It lasted forever (makeing it just about impossible to justify
buying that new KenwhipPMbat to your SO), it was stiff (ruining the
"my boat flexed, so I missed my roll" excuse), and it cost the same
so you couldn't use the "I can't buy that next round guys, my cross
link FreeRockOverBat cost me too much" line either. Linear forever.
Bo Eakens
Clay must have lost that "cloud of devine inspiration" as he just
destroyed one of my boats at the Green race this past weekend. Oh, and
it wasn't a Pyranha boat either.
This might be a better thread if it had a different subject like "How
much abuse should a plastic boat take". I'm from the old glass boat days
where you paddled a couple of days and spent the rest of the week
patching and grinding so you were ready to go again. I itch no more and
thank plastic for that.
I have also paddled and broken several manufacturers plastic. What a lot
of people don't seem to realize is plastic can be stressed and abused
just like other materials and will eventually fail too. You can't keep
beating rocks with a boat and expect it to last forever. Most
manufacturers only warranty for defects that existed when the boat left
the factory. Such as over cooked plastic which tends to make the boat
brittle and very prone to cracks, or thin plastic areas which tend to
bubble the hull and eventually fail. No manufactuerer guarantees against
abuse and that is exactly what we do to them. Once an area has been
really stressed a few times the possibility for failure is greatly
increased. Especially under the seat as this is where a lot of boats
fail. If I get a good winter and spring out of a boat and know I have
taken some good hits I sell it that summer and get a new boat.
Over the last 5 or 6 years the creeks have gotten steeper and the abuse
for plastic has increased with the steepness. I think a lot of
manufacturers are
rethinking their rules for boat replacemnet because of this.
I guess we need a great new plastic to pop up that can take the abuse
and not break but we will have to be ready to go through the testing
periods until its found. I heard lots of people bitching about the
plastic in the Dagger RPMs earlier this year. The Dagger folks were
looking for a better plastic but the only way for them to determine this
was to eventually sell them and see how they held up. I have an RPM and
have had no trouble with the plastic. Most people were eating the ends
up on the boats, probably playing in shallow holes, and should have put
end caps on themselves instead of fussing. So we have a bunch of boaters
that want something that will hold up, but when a manufacturer tries to
find the answer all we can do is give 'em some grief. Interesting.
Just for the record, I have had several boats replaced by Pyranha that
were broken. These boats were determined to have maufacturers defects.
Dagger and Perception have also replaced boats that have failed for one
reason or another. I also have a barn full of plastic boats that are
broken and were not
replaced because I beat the s--- out of them on creeks. I usually know
the difference between a bad boat and a bad line.
Josh, I don't see why you should be complaining when you take so much
pride in being able to break a boat. The following is a copy of a post
you made today.
/**************************/
"Yes, but it took me a year to break my old boat and I could break a
Scorpion in an hour at the right playspot."
polyethylene's worst nightmare......josh
/**************************/
If I were a manufacturer I don't think I'd be replacing any boats for
you either after reading this. Hope your next one holds up a little
longer. Try missing those rocks.
Melissa
Regardless of where you take a boat, the warranty should apply if the
company that makes it shows people running hard as shit stuff in the boat,
landing on rocks, as does the Pyranah video. If they market their
equipment with videos showing stuff like that, then they shouldn't be
allowed to get away with not warrantying a boat that is still in its
warranty period. "nothing wrong with the boat from a manufacturers point
of view", what a load of crap!!! If the boat was made out of cardboard
but it sold well, nothing would be wrong with it from a manufacturers
point of view!!! Its the consumer whos got the problem, but if they don't
back up their boats, hopefully it will come full circle when they get
screwed since no one will buy their boats.
Press the issue, I've heard too many people complain about Pyranah plastic
for this to just be a freak thing.
Jimmy
Bo Eakens
Kyle Disque wrote:
>
> Lemme get this straight,
>
<SNIP>
>
> What's next: "You boated when it was too cold", "Your feet are too big",
> or "You didn't wash your boat often enough"?
>
I see a lot of sarcasm in this post but thought the poster might like to
know that I have seen boats literally break in half in sub-freezing
temps. Not just Pyranha boats either. I don't know how the manufacturers
handle it but the plastic boats don't seem to handle the abuse as well
on cold days.
Are there any scientists out there that can give a good explanation for
this bad characteristic?
Bo Eakens
PS must be out boating or something Jim. He seems to be missing a great
opportunity for a plug.
Chris Hipgrave
In article <5944kr$l...@news1.voicenet.com>, dis...@voicenet.com (Kyle
Disque) wrote:
>>BTW: yeah sure, your linear will be the best ever, no really. Linear plastic
>> rules, it must be better, all the builder are using it! Cross link
>> sucked. It lasted forever (makeing it just about impossible to justify
>> buying that new KenwhipPMbat to your SO), it was stiff (ruining the
>> "my boat flexed, so I missed my roll" excuse), and it cost the same
>> so you couldn't use the "I can't buy that next round guys, my cross
>> link FreeRockOverBat cost me too much" line either. Linear forever.
Kyle,
There are a couple of points that you and probably alot of people here in
RBP don't know or have forgotton about crosslinked plastic.
1: It is VERY toxic and requires significant venting of the dangerous
gases during the molding of a boat. Linear and the Super Linear does not
have this problem. Ask anyone who has molded crosslinked boats how many
times they have come out in hives during a working day! Not good.
2: Linear and Super Linear is recyclable. Crosslinked is not. Most if not
all major boat manufacturers employ quality recycling efforts now.
Now from a totally personal perspective ... I broke more crosslinked creek
boats that linear (or super linear) while steep creeking because it didn't
flex much at all. IMHO, crosslinked creek boats would end up cracking more
frequently due to the lack of flex. I'd rather have a little flex.
Chris Hipgrave
=====================================================================
Chris Hipgrave c...@datawatch.com
Datawatch Corporation
================= "Life's Short; Play Hard; Sleep When You Die" =================
<<The views expressed above are mine alone and not those of the company, etc, blah, blah>>
Jay Kavanagh
I have several friends that paddle these brit boats. lots of them broke
some were warranteed and some were not. I personally will never buy one
of their boats. The must have soft rubbery rocks over there in merry
old england. Buy american, these companies stand behind thier boats.
Rvrunr2 wrote:
>
> Let me start this arguement by saying that I do not hold the
> representitive of the above mentioned company responsible for the
> following.
>
> PYRANAH IS SCREWING ME!!, and as you might gather, I am none too pleased.
> A month or so ago, I took my Acrobat 270 down Possum creek. The water was
> a little on the low side but still above the min. run line. Having run
> this creek numerous times in my Freefall LT, I decided to make it a little
> more difficult by running it in my Acrobat.
>
> After running a couple drops very cleanly, I went over about a 3 foot drop
> on to a very small, yet perfectly rounded rock. I landed on it squarely
> under my seat. I though that I had heard a splitting sound but didn't
> really know what it was. About a minute later, I realized. My boat was
> filling up with water at about 5 times the normal rate. I got out to
> investigate the hull and discovered two small cracks under my seat.
>
> As you can imagine, I was pretty upset, not to mention wondering how I was
> going to get out of the gorge. I decided that I could paddle out a lot
> faster than I could hike the boat out a pressed on. At first I was only
> having to dump the boat out every 10-15 minutes, but that number was
> getting smaller and smaller. By the time I reached the take out, the boat
> had another crack in it and it was three times the size as the other two.
>
> I wasn't too upset though because the boat was only about 7 months old and
> I figured that Pyranah would replace it. WRONG!!!!!!!
>
> After giving the boat to my local Pyranah rep., I waited for about a month
> for the new shipment of boats that was supposed to be coming over. The
> other day, I got a call from the rep. saying that there was nothing wrong
> with the boat from a manufacturers point of view and that they were not
> going to honor the warranty. He said the main reason for this was that I
> had done too hard of a creek with the boat!
>
> Wait a minute, I don't remember seeing that or hearing that before I
> bought the boat. And further more, who's to say that Possum creek is too
> hard? Yes it is steeper that the North Chick, but no where near the Bear,
> or Falling Water. Doesn't it also depend on the paddler as to what is
> hard and what is not? The rapid that it broke on could have been on the
> Tellico. I broke a Stunt bat in the exact same place a year ago on a very
> tame creek in almost the same manner. Unfortunetly, the warranty was up.
> I also broke my buddie's Acrobat 270 last weekend on the Little River
> Canyon in AL in the same place on a very similar rapid. However, he got a
> new one the next day with no questions asked from NOC, and his was two
> months older that mine!
>
> I think the real reason they are not going to warrant the boat is that
> almost everyone is breaking their Acrobats and they can't afford to give
> everybody a new one. So I guess it is me who must suffer.
>
> The lesson to be learned from this is not to keep rodeo boats off of
> creeks, but to make sure when you buy a boat, that the manufacturer is
> going to stand behind their product and not give their customers the run
> around. Most companies that do, don't stay companies for long.
>
> ---Jon Lord
Leland
Kyle Disque wrote:
>
> BTW: yeah sure, your linear will be the best ever, no really. Linear plastic
> rules, it must be better, all the builder are using it! Cross link
> sucked. It lasted forever (makeing it just about impossible to justify
> buying that new KenwhipPMbat to your SO), it was stiff (ruining the
> "my boat flexed, so I missed my roll" excuse), and it cost the same
> so you couldn't use the "I can't buy that next round guys, my cross
> link FreeRockOverBat cost me too much" line either. Linear forever.
actually, i broke a crosslink boat this weekend. it is not the first
crosslink boat i have broken. it cannot be repaired.
my question now is:
should i get another crosslink boat or go linear?
i know that i will wear the linear boat faster....i have many friends
using that plastic and it goes faster than crosslink. the manufacturer
is urging me to go with linear because it can be welded. that's fine,
but i'm concerned about the strength of linear plastic once it has been
welded. in my experience, welded boats do not have the strength of
pre-break boats, and welds are just a temporary fix to get you down a
few more runs. maybe these welds were not done as well as the
manufacturer could do them. if i get a linear boat, it breaks, and the
manufacturer welds it instead of replacing it, will it fall apart on
some wilderness class V run? will i be able to still take it on
wilderness class V? will the weld pop open in a month or so and force
me to buy a new boat, having used up the warrantee?
leland
ps. the manufacturer in question is very good about warrantees. there
are plenty of good warrantee experiences to be had out there.
my pyrannah boat (different boat) is of the old plastic, has been
radically worn and abused, and has 5 holes in it. i have told several
pyrannah folks about it in passing (like, "i wish i could afford i new
one...i loved mine until _I_ destroyed it") and they usually try to help
me out...see what we can do with a warrantee or to weld it, etc. i have
to explain to them that I broke the boat through my own idiocy and that
it is old as dirt anyway. they seem willing to help to me...
the reality is that there are a bunch of nice people at pyrannah who
understand your problem and want to help, but replacing boats is
expensive, added to the cost of importing those boats (i'm pretty sure
impex is the importer, pyrannah the manufacturer...correct me if i'm
wrong), and a small company cannot afford to do so. avoiding their
product is not going to help, as you will put them out of business. if
you want good service in the future, maybe you should invest in them by
buying new boats for a few years until they grow to a point where they
can provide the level of support that you want. in my opinion, their
designs are worth their plastic, and i'm gonna buy a new one when i can
afford it...
Billy Herring
"Dale A. Brown" <da...@inlink.com> writes:
>As for cracks in boats, go to the Auto store and look for a
>roll of "radiator tape". It's usually black, and will stick
>to anything, wet, or not. Duct tape is virtually useless for
>wet surfaces, and will not withstand dynamic flexing. It
>comes in little tiny rolls that are weightless (
>essentially) and will fit almost anywhere. A must in any
>kit.
Good suggestion.
>> :)The other day, I got a call from the rep. saying that
>there was nothing wrong
>> :)with the boat from a manufacturers point of view and
>that they were not
>> :)going to honor the warranty.
>Take a very good look at the manufacturer's published
>warranty, and contact an attourney.Don't let this go. If
>you're in the right, burn this company down. They "MUST" be
>accountable for their products.
Bad suggestion. This doesn't sound like humor; if it is then try to
indicate that fact better. I searched in vain in hopes of finding a
smiley. Please don't seriously suggest commiting crimes in a public
forum, even one as informal as r.b.p.
If you feel you've been ripped off you should get a lawyer, tell all of
your friends, and maybe even vent your frustrations on r.b.p. if it helps.
Please just don't slander or threaten anyone (or their livelihood) in a
public forum.
- Fish
Bo Eakens
Leland wrote:
>
> actually, i broke a crosslink boat this weekend. it is not the first
> crosslink boat i have broken. it cannot be repaired.
>
Crosslink can be repaired contrary to what everyone says. All plastic
has some linear plastic in it and this enables you to get a good bond.
Most patches you see are where people melt a little plastic on a crack
to try to hold it together. This technique is always going to fail. A
plastic patch correctly done is more like a fiberglass patch where you
cover a large area with several layers of patches to spread the stress
out. You must have the right equipment to do it right. (A little
plumbers tourch isn't going to get it.) I know of several boats that
have been repaired correctly and are holding up very well running steep
creeks and landing on lots of rocks.
Another big question to answer before fixing a crosslink boat is to
determine if the plastic is going bad. If you were at the Green race
this weekend I loaned Clay Wright a crosslink boat and he knocked about
6 big cracks in it. In this case I'd say the plastic is bad and trash
it. Not worth fixing. But a lot of boats are worth fixing. For more info
on fixing any plastic boat or inflatable check out Jack's Welding page
at http://web.frontier.net/jacks/kweld.html. I get no kickbacks from
Jack, I just think he has a lot of experience and knowledge that boaters
can definitely use.
> my question now is:
>
> should i get another crosslink boat or go linear?
>
> i know that i will wear the linear boat faster....i have many friends
> using that plastic and it goes faster than crosslink. the manufacturer
> is urging me to go with linear because it can be welded. that's fine,
> but i'm concerned about the strength of linear plastic once it has been
> welded. in my experience, welded boats do not have the strength of
> pre-break boats, and welds are just a temporary fix to get you down a
> few more runs. maybe these welds were not done as well as the
> manufacturer could do them. if i get a linear boat, it breaks, and the
> manufacturer welds it instead of replacing it, will it fall apart on
> some wilderness class V run? will i be able to still take it on
> wilderness class V? will the weld pop open in a month or so and force
> me to buy a new boat, having used up the warrantee?
>
Before I let anyone fix a boat I would want to know how and with what
materials/equipment do they plan to fix the boat and make sure they can
do a better job than myself or someone else.
> leland
>
> ps. the manufacturer in question is very good about warrantees. there
> are plenty of good warrantee experiences to be had out there.
>
> my pyrannah boat (different boat) is of the old plastic, has been
> radically worn and abused, and has 5 holes in it. i have told several
> pyrannah folks about it in passing (like, "i wish i could afford i new
> one...i loved mine until _I_ destroyed it") and they usually try to help
> me out...see what we can do with a warrantee or to weld it, etc. i have
> to explain to them that I broke the boat through my own idiocy and that
> it is old as dirt anyway. they seem willing to help to me...
>
> the reality is that there are a bunch of nice people at pyrannah who
> understand your problem and want to help, but replacing boats is
> expensive, added to the cost of importing those boats (i'm pretty sure
> impex is the importer, pyrannah the manufacturer...correct me if i'm
> wrong), and a small company cannot afford to do so. avoiding their
> product is not going to help, as you will put them out of business. if
> you want good service in the future, maybe you should invest in them by
> buying new boats for a few years until they grow to a point where they
> can provide the level of support that you want. in my opinion, their
> designs are worth their plastic, and i'm gonna buy a new one when i can
> afford it...
I agree. All this talk about boycotting Lightening paddles and not
buying Pyranha boats because of warranty problems will only hurt the
sport we all love. Does anyone remember a company called Chouinard
equipment? They also had a lot of good equipment/new ideas for
climbers/mountaineers until law suits and people fussing about equipment
forced them into backruptcy. A lot of great stuff is being produced for
the paddling community right now by several very small companies that
really do have good intentions. Let's don't shut them down as we may all
regret it later. -Bo
Chris Webster
> Does anyone remember a company called Chouinard
> equipment? They also had a lot of good equipment/new ideas for
> climbers/mountaineers until law suits and people fussing about equipment
> forced them into backruptcy.
I don't believe Chounaird Equip went bankrupt. After the first law
suit Chounaird saw that it could all be taken away from him, so he
sold the company to the employees, and it's now called Black Diamond.
> A lot of great stuff is being produced for
> the paddling community right now by several very small companies that
> really do have good intentions. Let's don't shut them down as we may all
> regret it later.
Pyrannah has good designs, but my observations show that the boats don't
hold up as well as other manufacturers. I know one paddler who continues
to buy them even after they break, he has back yard full of Pyrannah's,
he understands that they won't warrantee any of them.
--Chris
Scott Miller
Crosslink can be repaired contrary to what everyone says. All plastic
has some linear plastic in it and this enables you to get a good bond.
Most patches you see are where people melt a little plastic on a crack
to try to hold it together. This technique is always going to fail. A
plastic patch correctly done is more like a fiberglass patch where you
cover a large area with several layers of patches to spread the stress
out. You must have the right equipment to do it right. (A little
plumbers tourch isn't going to get it.) I know of several boats that
have been repaired correctly and are holding up very well running steep
creeks and landing on lots of rocks.
or companies in the Southeast that will do this type of plastic welding. Thank
s.
Scott Miller
Athens, Georgia
Scott Miller
In my previous post I made a mistake with my editor. The comments regarding th
e viability of crosslink plastic welding should be attributed to Bo Eakens. My
apologies, Mr. Eakens. The portion of the post I wrote was the question rega
rding places where one might have this welding done in the Southeast. I am sor
ry if this caused any confusion.
Scott Miller
Athens, Georgia
Kyle Disque
Bo Eakens (jrea...@ingr.com) wrote:
<snip>
: know that I have seen boats literally break in half in sub-freezing
: temps. Not just Pyranha boats either. I don't know how the manufacturers
Besides the scientific (things are more brittle when cold, duh) explanation,
what about the warenty side. Do builder's warentys exculde cold weather
boating? Would I get busted if I ran the class II local float in 10deg
weather, bumped a rock and split my 8 month old CrossOverIty? This is
something I'd like to know, it might affect my decision to boat in cold
weather. Beleive it or not, I'd rather _not_ violate the terms of my
boat's warenty.
Kyle
Fred Cerutti
bher...@comp.uark.edu (Billy Herring) wrote:
<SNIP>
>>> :)The other day, I got a call from the rep. saying that
>>there was nothing wrong
>>> :)with the boat from a manufacturers point of view and
>>that they were not
>>> :)going to honor the warranty.
>>Take a very good look at the manufacturer's published
>>warranty, and contact an attourney.Don't let this go. If
>>you're in the right, burn this company down. They "MUST" be
>>accountable for their products.
>Bad suggestion. This doesn't sound like humor; if it is then try to
>indicate that fact better. I searched in vain in hopes of finding a
>smiley. Please don't seriously suggest commiting crimes in a public
>forum, even one as informal as r.b.p.
>If you feel you've been ripped off you should get a lawyer, tell all of
>your friends, and maybe even vent your frustrations on r.b.p. if it helps.
>Please just don't slander or threaten anyone (or their livelihood) in a
>public forum.
>- Fish
"Burn them down" as in "Sue the crap outta them". Not as in "Torch the
joint".
Fred
Bo Eakens
Chris Webster wrote:
>
> > Does anyone remember a company called Chouinard
> > equipment? They also had a lot of good equipment/new ideas for
> > climbers/mountaineers until law suits and people fussing about equipment
> > forced them into backruptcy.
>
> I don't believe Chounaird Equip went bankrupt. After the first law
> suit Chounaird saw that it could all be taken away from him, so he
> sold the company to the employees, and it's now called Black Diamond.
>
Incorrect. Chouinard Equipment went into Chapter 11 in 1989 because of
lawsuits and the courts eventually allowed Chouinard to sell the company
to employees in
order to pay off some lawsuits. And yes the new company was Black
Diamond who,
unfortunately, lost the creativity of several people, especailly Yvon
Chouinard.
josh tomberg
> If I were a manufacturer I don't think I'd be replacing any boats for
> you either after reading this. Hope your next one holds up a little
> longer. Try missing those rocks.
*************************************************************************
Bo,
Perhaps the most frustrating thing about the warranty system is the lack of honesty of
both parties. It seems that companies always fall short on their warranties when it
comes time to replace a boat. It seems that there are boaters lying about the
circumstances surrounding the breakage of their boat. Since both the consumer and the
manufacturer are fighting back and forth, the goal being to trick and screw the other
out of a boat, the system needs work. I have broken a boat and I will break many more.
I'm not saying that my goal on the river is to put the biggest gash possible into my
boat, I'm just saying that's only a matter of 2 yrs or so because of my paddling style.
Bo, I would say that you are the same way. I believe that was you on "Plunge" running
Little River Canyon Falls, and that huge drop on Bear that looks like it lands on under
6 inches of water, and I think you know that all of those things puts your boats under
strain that the boat manafacturer did not intend. If I were a manafacturer, I wouldn't
replace any of your boats, and I wouldn't replace any of my boats either. I would try to
make the boats better so they WOULDNT BREak. I'm waiting for the companies to make some
movement towards improving boat strength, but I see nothing. Dagger went to softer,
superlinear which was worse (but a LOT cheaper) than Crosslink. Perception has the same
pretty soft linear, and so they just molded it thicker so their boats are heavy now.
Anyway, boat abuse is on the rise, and the boat companies seem to be not interested in
catching up. So, they just tightened up their warranties so that they can screw more
people. Pyranha is an especially good example of this, that's why I picked on them, but
all of the manafacturers in the industry do it. Now, with these tightened warranties,
there's a huge discrepancy between normal use and what will get you a new boat if
breakage occurs. If the Pyranha Video shows extreme creekin and hardcore playboatin,
that't what the boats are being promoted for, and the warranty should cover that.
(thanks JImmy B. yur idea) I read a warranty from a company that said "the warranty does
not cover abuse from pop ups or enders." THat is pure bullshit considering that theres
about five design features on the boat that make it ender better. Companies should work
on strength and have a little pride in their boats so that the will stand behind them.
I'm not scared that the manaf. is going to snatch my warranty, I'll tell them truthfully
how the boat broke, and that it shouldn't have. If he says thats not covered, I'll tell
him that "that's what the boat is designed for and it's fuckin pathetic that it won't be
replaced." I'm pleading the manaf. to update their warranties, stuff is changin, the
warranies need to change with it. If a boat does cartwheels (like a Scorpion), it
shouldn't break when you do them. But if it does, there should be compensation. Good
luck to clay and tracy with the new pranha warranty, I applaud P. for doing something.
malechi
Dale A. Brown
Back in '88 or so, I bought a Curtis Dragonfly to mainly
paddle in flatwater.
What a beautiful boat. I mean really one of the best designs
ever made. I can't remember the name of the guy who designed
it, some little hot shot fart who was winning the combined
class at the time, but Curtis was making the boat out of
Kevlar with bunches of partials, and some s-glass. It was a
really tough lightweight layup.
So, I being a youngly stupid stud, desided to take it into
some class III-IV without air bags or thigh straps. I was
just going to sneak everything.
Well anyway, before I go on rambling, I pinned on a couple
of rocks with the hull open to the upstream. Crunch/flat.
Very flat.
We got it off, and the whole time I'm wondering how long
it's going to take me to hike out with this thing on my
back, cause I just paid $1400 for it, and it's like my new
girlfriend or something.
I get it out onto the rocks, and kick the shit out of it,
thinking I have nothin' to lose.
Pop. Well kind of. The ash gunnels were cracked and
splintered, and the hull leaked just a tiny bit, but I
paddled the rest of the river, and even surfed a bit.
I met Dave Curtis once at a conclave in Urbanna, and told
him my little story, and how well I thought the boat was
made, and how much I liked the design. The whole time, he's
just looking at me, with not as much as a hint of smile.
After that he just looked at me and said, " Your kind is the
reason we have to make them that way".
I didn't know what to make of that statement exactly, but it
seemed to me that as a boat manufacturer, he was concerned
about the liability of how well his boats were made, and
who, and how they were going to be using them.
Gee, maybe I should have gotten around to ask him if he'd
warranty the thing. That might have given birth to a sense
of humor for him <g>.
Bill Matlin
I was thinking about selling my Hurricane after my last club out of panther
creek on the Gauley (I missed the last shuttle). But hearing all these
broken boats stories bring back bad memories about how I had to make an ass
out of myself in front of 100's of people at the putin to the Ocoee before
the Perception Rep would fork over a new Overflow. If you are reading
this, thanks Woody no hard feelings.
The point is there is a solution buy Prijon. I've beaten the hell out of
my Hurricane and it's still ticking. Before my Hurricane, I paddled a T
Canyon. Now there is a STRONG boat. I forgot to tie it down tight one
time and had to slam on my breaks at about 40 mph. The boat launched.
When I climbed through the hole it made in someones wooden fence I was
expecting to see a broken boat. But it good as new.
tracy clapp
Hey Jim,
There's the plug.
tracy
Paul Schelp
Kind of inevitable, isn't it...
PS (aka prijon supreme - now available at all Golden Gate Taco Bell
outlets).
tv
On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, josh tomberg wrote:
(massive snip)
}But if it does, there should be compensation. Good
You guys should try inflatbale PVC boats. They flex enough to handle the
huge whacks, yet you can pump them up enough to be stiff through the
rapids. They're really easy to fix. That said, I've paddled my pvc ducks
for three years on steep creeks and I have yet to cause a leak.
But then again, you have to be preapred for the swim, unless of course you
use sponsons...
Tom
Chris Bell
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.96121...@tuxedo.cs.unca.edu>,
>But then again, you have to be preapred for the swim, unless of course you
>use sponsons...
Tom --
Do you reckon that if I attach sponsons to my skiis, I won't fall
down? What do you recommend: 1 sponson per ski or 2? If 1, on which
edge -- inner, outer or a mix (both right edge or both left edge)? Or
would I be better off with one of your patented "body sponsons?," (i.e.,
an inner tube around my waist). Since I'm an expert, should I leave
my sponsons deflated?
Just trying to do the safe thing,
-- Chris
tracy clapp
tv <vis...@cs.unca.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, josh tomberg wrote:
>(massive snip)
>}But if it does, there should be compensation. Good
>}luck to clay and tracy with the new pranha warranty..
>
>You guys should try inflatbale PVC boats. They flex enough to handle the
>huge whacks, yet you can pump them up enough to be stiff through the
>rapids. They're really easy to fix. That said, I've paddled my pvc ducks
>for three years on steep creeks and I have yet to cause a leak.
>
>use sponsons...
>
>Tom
>
What the hell is a sponson?
tracy
Acoustic Coffee
How many times have you been on the river and seen someone with a
Perception boat with the end cut off. It seems folks used to cut off
the end and send it in as proof of warranty needs and then patch the
boat up and keep using it, or at least sell it and use the new one that
they got.
Do they still do this at Perception?
The last time I saw one of those boats was last summer on the Snake in
Wyoming. I never got the chance to try it, never owned a Perception.
Oh well, bad Karma anyways!!!
bye
coffee
Dale A. Brown
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.95.96121...@tuxedo.cs.unca.edu>
, tv <vis...@cs.unca.edu> wrote:
>But then again, you have to be preapred for the swim,
unless of course you
>use sponsons...
>
>Tom
You know, I'm just dying to buy someone a sponson for
christmas!
Dailu
Richard Clark Culpeper, M.A.
Chris Bell wrote:
--snip--
> Tom --
>
> Do you reckon that if I attach sponsons to my skiis, I won't fall
> down? What do you recommend: 1 sponson per ski or 2? If 1, on which
> edge -- inner, outer or a mix (both right edge or both left edge)? Or
> would I be better off with one of your patented "body sponsons?," (i.e.,
> an inner tube around my waist). Since I'm an expert, should I leave
> my sponsons deflated?
>
> Just trying to do the safe thing,
>
> -- Chris
Chris, are you speaking of telemark or alpine skis? A few of us held a
telemark warm up day a couple of weeks back near Tim Ingram's area, but
we were not offered any sponsors. This smacks of discrimination. If
the alpine folks can have sponsors, then the telemarkers should not be
denied them.
--
Richard Culpeper
E-mail: cul...@lawlab.law.uwo.ca
Website: http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/4444
"Hour after hour, day after day, far from sight of shore,
We laughed and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean,
Wanting never to return."
-- Kimosippi '95 --
tv
On Thu, 19 Dec 1996, Chris Bell wrote:
}>Tom wrote:
}>But then again, you have to be preapred for the swim, unless of course you
Have I been doing this a lto?
}Do you reckon that if I attach sponsons to my skiis, I won't fall
}down? What do you recommend: 1 sponson per ski or 2? If 1, on which
}edge -- inner, outer or a mix (both right edge or both left edge)?
Three sponsons pre limb, and one with mustard on rye.
}would I be better off with one of your patented "body sponsons?," (i.e.,
}an inner tube around my waist). Since I'm an expert, should I leave
}my sponsons deflated?
Don't leave them, not 'til your inverted gravity screw, aka, sunshine
wingwave, pays.
huh?
Tmo
Jimisnyder
I would recommend shoulder sponsons for the steep stuff
oh yeah you might want the break-away versions
I'm gettin some fer my truck
how about for old folks in the tub?
or doughnut shaped sponsons to keep the ice cream in
the cone
Christmas tree sponsons for houses with toddlers? Jim s
Steve Cramer
Chris Bell (be...@unca.edu) wrote:
: Do you reckon that if I attach sponsons to my skiis, I won't fall
: down? What do you recommend: 1 sponson per ski or 2? If 1, on which
: edge -- inner, outer or a mix (both right edge or both left edge)?
It really depends on the slope. If you're basically doing a right to left
traverse, I'd put both on the right edge, so the left edge will bite.
Cutting back to the right becomes tricky, though.
: Or
: would I be better off with one of your patented "body sponsons?," (i.e.,
: an inner tube around my waist). Since I'm an expert, should I leave
: my sponsons deflated?
You probably won't need the body sponson on anything less than a black
diamond. Also, since you're a pretty small guy, you might want to look at
a 12" tube, like on an Austin Mini, or in your case a Mini-Cooper. The
b.s. does make you ski with your arms way out to the sides, but safety is
the number one priority, right?
Let's all be careful out there.
Hey, Corran, can you roll a snowboard?
Steve
--
Steve Cramer
Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can
University of Georgia always tell what you
Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most.
tracy clapp
what the hell is a sponson? Do my sponsors need them?
tracy
Ken Panton
In article <59en3n$6...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, tracy clapp <teamp...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
|> what the hell is a sponson? Do my sponsors need them?
|> tracy
|>
It's what a daddy fish says to his son-fishes "It's time to Spon, son!"
Anonymous
Dale A. Brown
In article <59en3n$6...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
tracy clapp <teamp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>what the hell is a sponson? Do my sponsors need them?
>tracy
Tracy,
In actual fact, a sponsoon is a severe weather phenomenon
that occurs in areas like India. It floods the roads for
weeks, and makes travel virtually impossible.Rain, rain, and
more rain. I think a sponsoon, is like a really big monsoon.
It must be the combination of special, and monsoon, to get
sponsoon.
I read all this somewhere.
dale
Richard Clark Culpeper, M.A.
A sponson is an inflatable air bag upon which your sponsor can print its
logo. For example, the top of your sponson can read "Tim's WW Kayak
Rides: $5.00" and the bottom can read "No Refunds."
OC2DREW
Jon,
Your dealer/rep is screwing you. My micro is holding up fine dispite
plenty of severe smashings, but people are breaking Pyrahna boats for
sure. You need to take your story to IMPEX. At the absolute minimum you
should be entitled to a prorated replacement hull.
Good Luck,
Drew
Whatafall
response to the ongoing tirade -
I think there was something about rodeo boats on creeks that keeps
popping up in here - the problem is not that you shouldn't have taken a
270 on a creek, it is that the rodeo boats are built lighter -like for
rodeo - than the creek boats (compare it to your Freefall) and require
more precision when paddling creeks. Do you think your squirt boat
would've held up to a "3 ft. drop onto rocks" ? Would you complain when
it broke? Do you want a rodeo boat that weighs 45 lbs?
In the Impex video BJ and I take the rodeo boats down the Meadow, Mill
Cr., and other creeks we run all the time. Creek boating in rodeo boats
requires more control and we choose lines that don't land on rocks. I
cannot reccomend taking ANY rodeo boat through the "Iron Cross" on Little
Possum. I do not reccommend Bear, Falling Water, or Mann's Cr. either.
An RPM may have broken just as easily. Rodeo boats will continue to get
flatter and lighter and we must be increasingly wary of where we take
them.
Was it the plastic? Maybe - but for the manufacturers to make us the
light, high performance designs we require for top-end rodeo tricks means
that we must be more accountable for what we do to them, and not expect
every model to survive Little Possum at low water. Wait till you see the
piton potential of the 260!
Clay - Team Pyranha
Whatafall
Linear Repair
I've had good results with linear repair - even the "heat gun in the
basement" method. At the 1994 Potomac Rodeo I destroyed the nose of my
Acrobat 300 in the hole below the Fishladder (1' rip top and bottom) but
the next day I worked it together and competed. It lasted the whole
season - videoboating every day. With one more patch job (it fell of the
equipment truck in 95) it has held up. I sold it in Sept.. I popped a
Migo-230 in CO last June and got like 10 Mann's Creek and countless Meadow
runs out of it afterwards. I sawed off some plastic from the cockpit rim
and melted it in with the sides of the crack - smeared it around till it
looked smooth and paddled cautiously the next day. Seems to hold pretty
well and if it doesn't, you can just try it again. Good luck - Clay
Keith Beck
>It must be the combination of special, and monsoon, to get
>sponsoon.
>
>I read all this somewhere.
>
Dale:
Just to say I have really been enjoying your wit in this weirdness.
Thanks.
Rvrunr2
I agree 100%. However, you either have to tell the consumer that if they
do creek in the boat that it will be considered abusive and it will not be
covered under warranty (which you did not), or, you will have to warranty
the boat.
Whatafall
Sponsons:
I think you'de call Bill Master's kids "sponsons", but I'm not sure they
would keep you upright when tied to the sides of the boat. Probably
cushion the blows of Little Possum, though! Steve Scarborough's kids
would only be good for one or two hits. I guess you could strap them on
with radiator tape - but would there be a warranty when they broke?
doug rebard
tracy clapp wrote:
>
> what the hell is a sponson? Do my sponsors need them?
> tracy
I saw little kids learning to swim with mini-sponsons on their arms.
Someone must make them. Sponson rolls? sorry.
Doug
OC2DREW
Tell the customer? Thats obsurd, its like those stupid stickers telling
people not to put their feet under the lawn mower. Keep the lawyers out
of this and use common sense when paddling your boat into rocks.
Chip Mefford
OC2DREW wrote:
> Keep the lawyers out
> of this and use common sense when paddling your boat into rocks.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
luv
chipper
N. Shirtcliffe
At our club we have such a boat, however it lost the front piece going
over a fall full of water (the boater was long gone). The boat is now a
polo boat, when I get round to melting it shut again and filling the drain
plug which is now in the front.
The boat is surprisingly good, if only I could find some knee rests and a
backwards deck.
Neil
Bill Matlin
Since this thread seems to refuse to die, I'll have to add my 2 cents. I
had an Overflow break on me, just above Baby Falls on the Tellico. This
was about 6 months after the boat first came out. When I called Perception
about getting a replacement they asked me where I had bought the boat,
etc., etc. So I had to explain that I had bought it used and as such I
could understand if they were not going to completely replace the boat.
All I wanted was a relacement hull, a new boat at wholesale cost,
something. Since the boat had broken and it could not have possibly been
over a few months old and I had only paddled it a few times. The fellow
from Perception was stern but polite, I am truly sorry. the warrently is
only good to the original owner." "I know that. But the boat can't
possibly be more than a few months old. and I have 6 eye witnesses who saw
me sink in the eddy above Baby Falls." Sorry, not the original owner, no
warrenty. The boat is less that a year old. I'll tell everybody I know
about what a bad experience I've had. Please. But the fellow on the phone
could not be budged.
To make a long story short, a few weeks later I got my new boat, but only
because I made an ass out of myself in front of hundreds of people at the
putin of the Ocoee. Woody, one of Perceptions Reps, was there and asked me
how I liked the boat since it was a new design and all. I said, "I loved
the design but the company sucked." as I rolled over the boat and showed
everyone the 12" long weld I had successfully made and explained my plight
to him. He went on to politely inform me of the company policy and how if
I had bought the boat new Perception would gladly have given me a new boat,
etc. etc. etc. I said I knew all this the man on the phone had already
explained this to me but I didn't give a f..k what the policy was. The
boat broke and I thought I deserved a new boat. End of story.
As the crowd grew so did my voice as Woody and I went on to discuss the
finer philosophical points of boat company/customer relationships. Broken
boats are just a part of creekin. You called it the Overflow not the
Hiwassee. You can't expect the company to replace every boat that someone
takes out and abuses. Where do you think people are paddling these creeks
boats, on creeks. We have a fair and generous policy if we bent it for you
we would have to bend it for everyone.
At this point a large crowd of about 25 boaters had gathered, with a few
hundred raft customers watching over their shoulders. at which point I told
Woody what I told the guy on the phone. That I understood the company had
no legal obligation to replace my boat, but as a disatisfied customer I
felt I deserved to be cut a deal and all the logic in the world was not
going to change that fact. Additionally, although I could had no control
over getting a warrently boat I did have control over what company I bough
my next boat from. Furthermore, as demonstrated by our conversation I was
completely free to voice my opinions - however onesided they might be - on
the river. So I asked him what Bill Masters, the owner of Perception,
would rather have me doing, sitting in eddies telling stories about what a
generous company Perception was to me or sitting in eddies showing everyone
the boat with the 12" crack that Perception was too tight to replace even
though the boat was less than 6 months old. Woody, asked me back to his
van - not to beat the shit out of me as my girfriend half suspected - but
to give me my new boat.
As consumers, we do have power. We all hear stories on the rivers about
Dagger, Perception, New Wave, Wave Sports, Pyranna, Eurokayaks, Prijon.
Occasionally, we even see an old Seda or a Hydra or a Jetti or a vintiage
AQ. If a company can't afford the occassional abuse of a liberal warrenty
policy it surly can't afford the backlash of NOT having a liberal
warrently. When we had to choose from was the Crossfire or the Dancer it
was a sellers market. Now, every company makes an excellent play boat and
a strong safe creek boat. For many of us the decision to buy a Rocket
instead of an Overflow will be made in part by the reputation material
quality and warrently. Choosing a Kinetic over an RPM will be made in part
by the attention to detail in design and service.
Without turning rec.boats.paddle into rec.spam.boatbuilders I think its
good to have an unmoderated forum in which to voice our opinions. If a
disatisfied customer has the power of a single voice on the river, he has
the power of a thousand voices on the internet.
Fred Cerutti <FCer...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<596vdk$o...@camel1.mindspring.com>...
> bher...@comp.uark.edu (Billy Herring) wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> >>> :)The other day, I got a call from the rep. saying that
> >>there was nothing wrong
> >>> :)with the boat from a manufacturers point of view and
> >>that they were not
> >>> :)going to honor the warranty.
> >>Take a very good look at the manufacturer's published
> >>warranty, and contact an attourney.Don't let this go. If
> >>you're in the right, burn this company down. They "MUST" be
> >>accountable for their products.
Paul Schelp
Bill,
You should consider yourself damn lucky to have gotten that
replacement boat. The only reason you did get it is because others in
a similar situation aren't as willing to "make an ass" (as you say)
out of themselves.
That was a black-and-white case where the warranty had expired. Would
you demand warranty repairs at a car dealer for a non-warrantied
vehicle? You knew or should have known the boat wasn't warrantied when
you bought it. That's a risk you took. That's life. Furthermore, you
could have easily learned that rotomolded boats not infrequently break
(hence the excellent Perception warranty in the first place). Hell,
even my beloved HTP plastic can break now and then. You made the
choice, now don't blame somebody else for the consequences.
Even though I am a diehard Prijon booster, I feel compelled to come to
the defense of Perception, and all manufacturers, on this one. I hope
this kind of abuse doesn't convince guys like Woody to look for a new
job.
Paul Schelp
"Bill Matlin" <matl...@eve.net>'s previous post:
Chip Mefford
Paul Schelp wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> You should consider yourself damn lucky to have gotten that
> replacement boat. The only reason you did get it is because others in
> a similar situation aren't as willing to "make an ass" (as you say)
> out of themselves.
>
This may be slighly off topic, but not by much.
In the spirtually similar world of flyfishing, there has been a trend
among
some of the larger rod manufacturers to offer unlimited lifetime
warranties.
There is an editorial in a recent issue of Fly Rod and Reel where the
president of Loomis flyrods is quoted as saying that his company will
NEVER offer such a warranty as this sort of thinking encourages all to
accept no responsibily for ones actions and all that can be done wrong
can be undone. I like this attitude and wish it would gain some
momentum. Loomis offers a decent warranty and though I have seen posts
on rec.outdoors.fishing.fly that Loomis makes junk and won't honor their
warranty. I have also seen more posts from the same folk who recommend
that if one wants to sell a rod from a company like Orvis, to take said
rod, slam it in a car door, get it replaced and sell the rod as new.
In short, I see nothing wrong with a company trying to make money. I
think it is unreasonable for folk in general to want everything for
free. If its worth having, its worth working for. To have abused
Perception in this manner I think says more about Bill Matlin than it
does about Perception.
If more folk were willing to go through what Bill Matlin went through
for his new boat, can one imagine how quickly folks would get out of
this sport? I can well imagine the folk I know who do such things as
make paddles and skirts and the like being confronted with this sort of
commerce backing right out of their trades and going off to work at 7/11
were they would probably make more money anyway. Further can one imagine
this sort of scene taking place in front of a land owner on an already
questionable point of access? Can anyone in good concience condone this
sort of thing?
.02%
tracy clapp
AMEN BROTHER
tracy
John Winters
Culpeper wrote
>
> Chris, are you speaking of telemark or alpine skis? A few of us held a
> telemark warm up day a couple of weeks back near Tim Ingram's area, but
> we were not offered any sponsors. This smacks of discrimination. If
> the alpine folks can have sponsors, then the telemarkers should not be
> denied them.
Didn't know they were available with steel edges. Seems to me that
inflatable ski sponsons would reduce control sort of like they reduce
control on kayaks. Of course Tim's might be better than the ones I tried.
--
John Winters
Redwing Designs
Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft
http://www.onlink.net/~jwinters/
Whatafall
Wow - you got a boat and it cost everybody else some $. Seems like you
didn't read the warranty information too well - oh maybe not at all. You
think Toyata should fix a car that you bought used? After someone drove
the Baja 9000 in it? When a company appeases people that bitch the
loudest, they encourage that sort of action and make the rest of us pay
for it. I'de rather help someone unwilling to make such a scene and
unwilling to embarrass a great paddler like Woody in front of a group. -
C
Mark Kendall
In article <5abj0p$o...@boursy.news.erols.com>, sch...@erols.comÇ says...
>
>Bill,
>
>You should consider yourself damn lucky to have gotten that
>replacement boat. The only reason you did get it is because others in
>a similar situation aren't as willing to "make an ass" (as you say)
>out of themselves.
>
>That was a black-and-white case where the warranty had expired. Would
>you demand warranty repairs at a car dealer for a non-warrantied
>vehicle? You knew or should have known the boat wasn't warrantied when
>you bought it. That's a risk you took. That's life. Furthermore, you
>could have easily learned that rotomolded boats not infrequently break
>(hence the excellent Perception warranty in the first place). Hell,
>even my beloved HTP plastic can break now and then. You made the
>choice, now don't blame somebody else for the consequences.
>
It may have been a balck and white case but if the boat was only a month
old you would expect the manufacturer to be rather embarrassed about
the failure and to replace it purely for that reason. Perception in New
Zealand screwed a bunch of us around about 2 years ago with boats bought
brand new from a local shop. Eventually I got my money back, bought a
Prijon Hurricane and have never dealt with the shop or Perception since -
the shop had no option but to give the money back as the product failed
to meet what it is sold to do. A couple of days ago I found out that I
had been bad mouthed for quite some time about this, oh well, I was just
about to stop harping on about it but not know. Being an instructor in
one of the canoe clubs here has huge influence over where people spend
their money and that shop has lost over $20,000 dollars worth of sales
since then!
Mark Kendall
ma...@ie3.co.nz
Rvrunr2
It's funny that all of these people that are complaining the loudest are
getting boats. Maybe I should change my stragedy. At least I was the
original owner of the boat.
There has been a new twist in this story though. One of my buddies broke
his MigoBat (or Microbat) in the exact same place as I broke my Acrobat
and they are not giving him one either. His was also under warranty.
Supposedly they are taking the serial numbers off of our boats and doing
tests on the bit of plastic that they have on file. They aren't even
looking at the boats! They have been kind enough to offer us a new shell
with no "guts" for $300 plus shipping. I realize that this is the
cheapest way that I could get a new boat but I don't think I'll do it
unless I can erase the Pyranha off of the side of it.
LTDress
You definitely shoudn't have received a new Overflow Bill. The scene you
described made me cringe. You weren't being fair, and the warranty didn't
apply to you. All your talk about being a consumer was b.s. You didn't
buy the boat from Perception (or an authorized dealer!). I think it would
have been nice if Perception had replaced the hull at a reasonable rate
below retail, but they didn't have to. You were totally at fault, and I
feel sorry for any rep put on the spot when such is the case. Woody was in
a catch 22. Hopefully enough people will tell the other side of the story
so Woody can feel it was worth it to give you a new boat, in hopes others
won't abuse companies in the future.
JB
PU 68CHEVY
I would be delighted to get a new boat for $300 dollars. Perhaps you
could give me your old outfitting. Seat, thigh braces, bulkheads, wall
support, and so on. I would be very grateful
Shayne
tracy clapp
John,
Ben's boat had been replaced once. Any company would not replace a second
replacement. Any company. I say this because I too am a boater and have
broken boats and had the same situation with bigger companies. I know you
hate Pyranha but I don't understand why you wouldn't get the replacement
and then just sell it to get some of your investment back. I hope you
remember all this when you are dealing with the next companies boat and
trying to get a replacement. It is people like the guy who made an ass out
of himseld that has led the industry to change how it deals with
warranties. Lots and lots of people have just plain lied while trying to
get a replacement. I have had people boldfaced lie to me. Many others are
just subtle little lies. I guess that is just the way it goes but I am
sure refreshed when someone is actually honest with me -- it doesn't
happen all that often.
And yes John, I did look at your boat and we have run the tests. Pyrnaha
is trying very hard to make the best possible product they can. We have
made dramatic innovations in design and have stayed ahead of the game in
plastics. We have new things happening that are actually quite exciting.
Unfortunately we have also been screwed by many people who have lied. We
have to try to be fair. I think if someone got lots of use out of a boat
that a cst replacement is fair. I know you don't agree but hopefully as
you learn that the rest of the boat manufacturers have the same policy you
will not hold us in such disregard.
>It's funny that all of these people that are complaining the loudest are
>getting boats. Maybe I should change my stragedy.
It is this stragedy that has caused the problem.
tracy clapp
tracy clapp
rvr...@aol.com (Rvrunr2) wrote:
>It's funny that all of these people that are complaining the loudest are
>getting boats. Maybe I should change my stragedy.
It is this stragedy, of pitching a fit until you get what you want, that
has led all the companies to re-evalute their replacment policies. I know
people who have taken axes to boats and claimed warranty or let one fly
off the car and then claimed it happened on the river and they only
paddled it five times.
>There has been a new twist in this story though. One of my buddies broke
>his MigoBat (or Microbat) in the exact same place as I broke my Acrobat
>and they are not giving him one either. His was also under warranty.
I think you will find that with any company after a boat is replaced once
the second claim is replaced at cost. I know from personal experience
that this is true with the big guys. Your friend has had a boat replaced
and this is his second claim on the same boat. Most people would be happy
with a cost replacement.
> They aren't even
>looking at the boats!
This is just not true. I personally looked at your boat. I offered to
look at Ben's but he wanted to keep it to try and weld it to use for now.
I even offered to let him use one of my personal boats, which I have to
pay for just like everybody else, and he never came to get it.
>They have been kind enough to offer us a new shell
>with no "guts" for $300 plus shipping. I realize that this is the
>cheapest way that I could get a new boat but I don't think I'll do it
>unless I can erase the Pyranha off of the side of it.
By the way your $300 replacement hull includes shipping. I can tell you
are unhappy with Pyranha. You could just get the shell and sell it and
get some of your money back. Or you could grind the name off. Duct tape?
tracy clapp
PU 68CHEVY
I agree with you totally. A cost replacement is a very good deal. Just
some people try to get to much for their dollar, and screw all the nice
people like you and me
shayne
Bill Matlin
LTDress <ltd...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970105202...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
> You definitely shoudn't have received a new Overflow Bill. The scene you
> described made me cringe. You weren't being fair, and the warranty
didn't
> apply to you. All your talk about being a consumer was b.s. You didn't
> buy the boat from Perception (or an authorized dealer!).
Perception does not sell direct, so it would have been hard to buy a boat
from them. I suppose that if I were a little less honest and a little
more creative I could have called the guy up I bought the boat from and had
him turn it in the authorized dealer who could have passed it on to
Perception. Perception could have given the original buyer his warrentied
boat which he then could have been passed on to me. Obviously, that did not
happen.
>I think it would have been nice if Perception had replaced the hull at a
reasonable rate
> below retail, but they didn't have to.
Instead, I called the company up and told the truth thinking Perception
would be "nice" as you put it and help me out by replacing the hull at a
reasonable rate. Since the boat was virtually new, < 6 months old and
paddled only a few times It seemed to me like a "reasonable" thing to do.
Maybe if I were dealing with the AT&T or GM or Ford I would have expected a
stiff and inflexable response. But then again maybe if I had bought a Ford
or GM used with 3,000 miles and all 4 tires fell off driving it home they
might have been more concered that maybe one of their cars had been poorly
built.
>You were totally at fault, and I
> feel sorry for any rep put on the spot when such is the case. Woody was
in
> a catch 22. Hopefully enough people will tell the other side of the
story
> so Woody can feel it was worth it to give you a new boat, in hopes others
> won't abuse companies in the future.
Educate me on my fault?
Was I wrong because I bought a used boat? Sorry I didn't know as a
kayaker, I was obligated to keep Perception or anyone else for that matter
in business by strictly buying new boats. I have confidence that the
people who manage these companies can do that without my personal
allegiance. I am sure it is a tough business, but business is tough
everywhere. If the current owners don't feel like they can make the rate
of return they desire manufacturing whitewater kayaks then maybe they
should put their money somewhere else. I don't really care.
Was I at fault because I gave Woody hell? Maybe if everyone in
rec.boats.paddle that thinks I am an asshole can get together and pitch in
you guys can buy him a "Hope your feeling better" card. However, I see it
as his job. He is getting paid to travel around and hear what people
think. I can't imagine someone in a position such as Woody's feeling like
his world is going to cave in just because Bill Matlin argued with in at
the Ocoee. If it did bother him maybe when Perception closes down because
all the boaters are bad and evil and want to take advantage of them, he can
go out and find a job that better suits him.
Was I wrong to tell the truth about how the boat broke or should I have
kept that my little secret. According to what I am hearing, maybe I could
of axed it or run over it with my car, or burned a hole through it with a
blow torch and then tried to pass the damage off as having occured on the
river.
Was I wrong to expect something more then verbatim compliance with "company
policy"? I guess I did for some reason. I though I was dealing with a
small company that was "nice" and "reasonable" and had concern about their
quality. When I found out that they seemed more interested in solving
their problem of weeding out "bad customers" then in solving their problem
about selling a poorly built boat, I got really pissed off.
Is fraud a problem? I am sure it is and if boat companies are to remain
profitable they must address it. However - in my opinion at least - the
solution is not to develop a policy and support an attitude that conveys
that every customer is suspected as a bad apple until proven otherwise.
>
> JB
>
Rvrunr2
AMEN!!!!!!
Melissa
In article <01bbfc48$eb08fbe0$1515...@matlin.eve.net>, matl...@eve.net
says...
>
>
>
>
>> You didn't
>> buy the boat from Perception (or an authorized dealer!).
>
>Perception does not sell direct, so it would have been hard to buy a boat
>>
>
>I understand your point about them being concerned about a poorly built boat
instead of poorly built customers. That should be their priority. The
analogy with other companies such as GM, etc. doesn't measure up for those
who are comparing policy. I still get recall notices from Chrysler about
problems with my van even though I'm a second owner. However, the fact
remains that Perceptions policy is to only warranty the boat for the original
owner. The boat broke, and I feel you deserve some reasonable solution
from Perception, but not a new boat. This is a good issue, and I hope Tracy
and others continue to discuss it here, so the "Woody incident" doesn't have
to be repeated by any reps or (indirect) customers.
Jimmy
Tim McTeague
Your fault was you tried to get warranty service on a USED boat. You
did not deserve it. Let me repeat...it was a used boat. Come on now
you got a good price by buying used and one of the things you give up is
warranty service. You wanted to have your cake and eat it too. While I
don't know Woody I am sure his job is not to put up with verbal abuse.
Listening to customer complaints is one thing but I believe people have
a civil duty to be just that.
Tim
J. Pheasant-Albright
On 6 Jan 1997, tracy clapp wrote:
> rvr...@aol.com (Rvrunr2) wrote:
> >It's funny that all of these people that are complaining the loudest are
> >getting boats. Maybe I should change my stragedy.
>
> It is this stragedy, of pitching a fit until you get what you want, that
> has led all the companies to re-evalute their replacment policies. I know
> people who have taken axes to boats and claimed warranty or let one fly
> off the car and then claimed it happened on the river and they only
> paddled it five times.
Major snippage performed.
My Significant Other, a class V boater in his salad days (Ernie's Canyon,
Tumwater, Etc. ) came strolling through the door one day with his boat in
one hand, and @ 1 foot of the stern dangling in the other. This boat was @
one week old (Corsica ) and had not been abused in any way. He simply
dropped over a ledge in Robe Canyon, and the stern snapped off.
In order to paddle out, his compadres cut down the foam pillar, stuffed it
into the hole along with an ensolite pad, and duct-taped the mess
together.
The local Perception rep, who is now a friend, decided that it was "Boat
Abuse" by a "no-name Washington boater" and didn't want to replace it. At
which, the SO replied that he'd be happy to strap it to the top of the car
and drive it to every race,rodeo, club meeting and put-in in 3 states.
After all, the logos were still in their pristine state.
What makes it all very very interesting, is that the SO was featured in
the Perception catalog for many years....in a photo taken by the same rep.
He got another boat.
Julie
===============================================================================
"Here comes another winter of long shadows and high hopes
Here comes another winter, waiting for Utopia,
waiting for hell to freeze over." The The
===============================================================================
Whatafall
Ok - there was a time when I though plastic boats were indestructable and
wouldn't break unless something was wrong with it. But it was 16 years
ago and I had to pay 200$ to Perception to get a new hull for my Mirage.
Sure I got mad - but then I got over it. How do you warranty a tool that
is easily destroyed? When you run your 4x4 off the road and into a ditch
do you expect the automaker to give you a new one? When you pop an edge
snowboarding that killer chute with not quite enough snow do you send it
back for replacement? For some reason some people think they shouldn't be
able to destroy a kayak within a year's time - HELLO! What is the
difference in how old it is? If you land on the wrong rock the boat is
going to break - even if it is brand new, even if it is a class 2 drop.
"Piece of *&^%, I didn't even hit a rock! " - Famous words of someone now
on the other side of this controversy. When the boat breaks it absorbs
much of the impact of the crash and it is likely you will feel a lot less
than you expect, especially if you just ripped the stern off on the rocks
just behind the curtain of a big falls or pitoned into the bottom. Often
you can destroy your boat without it actually breaking, then the next
little hit and it falls apart. Look for white lines or dents into the
plastic, the more white the more air in the plastic and the weaker the
site. Buyer beware! It is common practice to sell a boat you think you
may have damaged or destroyed to a boater who will keep it in easier
water. No wonder the warranty only applies to the first owner! You may
have bought a boat that ran Gorrilla full of water, did a 12 pt. cartwheel
down I-75, or just got dropped on a sharp rock at the wrong angle but
didn't break (yet). I will not say that manufacturers never make
mistakes, but keep in mind it is just as likely that you made one you
aren't even aware of. Who can tell? Not the manufacturers.
Clay
Jimisnyder
I would like to remind the readers that one of the original intents of
this sport was to MISS the rocks- otherwise hey! damage! wow!
am I missing something here?
rockin in a scratchless(?)boat, Jim Snyder
Dale A. Brown
In article <19970110141...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
jimis...@aol.com (Jimisnyder) wrote:
Good point.
Ask any of the old timers that were paddling glass ( I mean
real glass, not kevlar, or composite) boats. Talk about
skill; talk about finnesse? There was no "boof" move back
then. And you did try to miss the rocks didn't you Jimi.
These guys "had" to miss the rocks. I remember talking to a
friend who pinned just ever so slightly one day, and he said
he could hear the hull beginning to crack. That boat came
very close to going into two pieces ( was this asexual boat
reproduction?).
I am not one of these old timers. I just have the greatest
respect for them. They had real skill. I came in to the
sport right at the end of this era, and I remember seeing a
boater drag his boat down a road to the put in and thinking
how wreckless, and disrespectful it looked. It just looked
sloppy and I suppose was the beginning of whitewater grunge.
A glass boater would never ( could never) never do that.
Then again, his boat probably cost twice as much, and weighd
half as much. But I'll bet he was probably a better boater.
PLastic boats are safe (greay area), and they're reasonably
priced (greay area), but I think they lend themselves to
sloppy paddling (greay area).
I still say watch the women (greay area), they have the
greatest skill (grey area/smoozing statement).
Dailu
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Seriously; I'm just kidding. But I'm uncertain whether I'm
serious that I'm kidding, or kidding that I'm serious."
dailu's archimedial spiral of life (r=Ż/¸ for Żł 0)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Steve Garrotto
In article <19970110141...@ladder01.news.aol.com> jimis...@aol.com (Jimisnyder) writes:
>From: jimis...@aol.com (Jimisnyder)
>Subject: Re: Perception screwing people ( was Pyranah is screwing me!!! )
>Date: 10 Jan 1997 14:20:12 GMT
>I would like to remind the readers that one of the original intents of
>this sport was to MISS the rocks- otherwise hey! damage! wow!
>am I missing something here?
> rockin in a scratchless(?)boat, Jim Snyder
Your supposed to MISS the rocks!? Damn, I knew that they told me wrong! Next
you are going to tell me that you are supposed to have your head out of the
water (which is also how I thought it was to be). Maybe I put too much faith
in the others I paddle with . . .
:-)
SLG
(upside down in this world)
(All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new
and improved ways of spelling old words. Gramatical errors are
due to too many English classes/teachers)
Gene Freadman
>I would like to remind the readers that one of the original intents of
>this sport was to MISS the rocks- otherwise hey! damage! wow!
>
>am I missing something here?
>
> rockin in a scratchless(?)boat, Jim Snyder
Right on. I still think I didn't do it right if I hit a rock. Of course I
hit a few .
gene
N. Shirtcliffe
I am glad to see some people coming out on the side of the company on this
one. When I saw the first message I was confused, when I saw the
perception boat receiver I assumed that it was an American thing. I for
one would be upset with myself for breaking the boat and for not reading
the warranty, when one of our club boats went over a waterfall on its
third trip their was no question of complaining, boats were not made to go
over waterfalls full of water.
I assumed that I was being British, we are unused to being treated well
by companies and are truly surprised when we get discounts, deals and
replacements. Complaining when you are treated badly is just not done.
When an American friend came over and insisted on sitting
at the tables in Burger King after they had shut, to him it was a
reasonable thing to do, he was the customer, the customer is always right.
I was embarased to be there and did not see the point at all, the employee
only wanted to go home. I am pleased to read that not all of you are like
that.
Neil
Kyle Disque
Amen. This analogy puts this issue into prespective for me. As for the
guy that made an ass out of himself in front of Woody, please don't do that
again. Woody's one of the nicest guys you'd like to meet. I'd hate to
have him quit rep'ing 'cause you're not willing to live up to your end
of a deal.
Kyle
Whatafall (what...@aol.com) wrote:
: Ok - there was a time when I though plastic boats were indestructable and
: wouldn't break unless something was wrong with it. But it was 16 years
: ago and I had to pay 200$ to Perception to get a new hull for my Mirage.
<snip to save the 'net>
J. Irwin
A J Crossland wrote:
>
> My acro 270 split completely from nose to under the seat... however my
> friendly local dealer got it replaced... As he has done with the two other
> pyranah boats that I know of being broken - this seems to be a recurring
> story and they still try to argue they use the best plastics available...
> Is it that Pyrahna boats are flimsy or that the people who buy
these boats are likely to be aggressive paddlers and use them to do
things that would break any common plastic after a while?
-Jake
Brian D. May
A J Crossland (en...@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk) wrote:
: My acro 270 split completely from nose to under the seat... however my
: friendly local dealer got it replaced... As he has done with the two other
: pyranah boats that I know of being broken - this seems to be a recurring
: story and they still try to argue they use the best plastics available...
What is the scoop on the quality of Pyranah kayaks?
My wife is considering getting an Acrobat 270, so we'd appreciate any
warnings that might be relevant.
Has Pyranah made improvements in the last couple years? If she does decide
to go with Pyranah, should we buy a used boat (to save $$) or get one
new?
How does Pyranah's plastic compare to other boats?
- compared to Prijon's blow-molded plastic
- compared to crosslink
- compared to linear (note that the linear plastics seem to vary a lot
from company to company)
My experiences (in descending order of apparent durability):
1 - Prijon Hurricane (HTP?) - awesome
2 - Dagger Crossfire (X-link) - very good
2 - New Wave Sleek (X-link) - very good
4 - Perception Dancer (linear) - not bad but a little soft
5 - Dagger RPM (linear) - really soft
Of course Prijon comes out on top. For me, the crosslinked boats I've
used have seemed plenty durable. I'm a little concerned about linear
plastics - the RPM seemed like it wouldn't last long on the bottom of
the river.
Hope to get some other opinions here.
Brian
--
Brian May
Department of Oceanography email: bm...@phys.ocean.dal.ca
Dalhousie University phone: (902) 494-7007 (work)
Halifax, Nova Scotia phone: (902) 462-3364 (home)
B3H 4J1 Canada fax: (902) 494-2885
Perri Rothemich
Bill Matlin wrote:
>
> Is there any boat material types that can tell me what 'HTP' is.
>
HTP is High density linear polyethylene. I know Euro-Kayaks use it, and
have had excellent results. It's good stuff.
Perri
--
"If the earth was flat, I'd paddle off the edge"
Bill Matlin
Is there any boat material types that can tell me what 'HTP' is. I assume
it is a grade of HDPE?
MLinzmaier
>> Bill Matlin wrote:
>> Is there any boat material types that can tell me what 'HTP' is. I
assume
>> it is a grade of HDPE?
HTP is the plastic made only by Prjion. HTP stands for High Performance
Thermoplastic. It is made of High Molecular Density Polyethylene. This
is a linear
plastic but is very strong becuase the molding process is done at a low
temperature when compared to high temperature roto-molding.
Many people swear that this is the best plastic on the market but my
experience is that I had my Hurricane less than seven months and the hull
cracked, the seat broke and the thigh braces broke. Prijon replaced the
seat, thighbraces and allowed me to repair the Hull without effecting the
warranty. If the Crack in the Hull had been greater than 4 inches they
would have replaced the boat. I would not say that HTP is the toughest on
the market but it is the toughest that is easily repairable because it is
linear plastic.
The bottom line is every kind of plastic can and will break. If you boat
often and hard expect to break a boat every now and then. As for service,
Prijon was great and I had a Kober paddle break after a little over a year
of use and Prijon/Wildwasser replaced that as well eventhough the warranty
is only for a year.
I have also had some NRS floatbags have problems and they replaced those
as well.
My experience is that if you have a legitimate problem and present your
case properly you will likely be satisfied.
Mike Linzmaier
Whatafall
As for Pyranha plastic, it depends on the year. Graham and company are
into finding the best stuff out, but as it changes so do they. When I
first paddled their boats, the plastic was thick and stiff, but abraded
badly. Then the Ultra Linear arrived and they got much lighter, stayed
stiff and abraded much less - of course these boats have cracked under the
seat perhaps more than before. Now - NEW for 97 comes yet anther plastic
- Graham is very excited about it and will be posting info about it soon.
My demo is very light, but very rigid and shows little of the wear I've
been giving it. As it is a rodeo boat ( and about 28 lbs) I haven't done
much more than the Russel Fork in it, so we'll hope for the best.
The Prijon/Eskimo plastic is the toughest I've tried, but does have
drawbacks. Any angular edges don't mold well and end up thin in the
critical "seam" area. Thus the Hurricanes and Diablos are breaking where
most boats are toughest - the sides. It is also why the Kendo is so
rounded compared to the other rodeo boats - it has to be! I don't know
why the cockpit rims are so problematic in the Rocket, I doubt it has to
do with the plastic, I bet it is the mold. Sure wish Pyranha plastic was
as durable or Prijon could successfuly make designs like Graham's. Maybe
this new plastic will close the gap. Hoping for the best - Clay Wright
Team Impex
Melissa
In article <Pine.SGI.3.93.970111001811.19584A-100000@chcmga>, n...@ic.ac.uk
says...
I'm confused. Do you think its wrong to demand service from a
company that exists because you are there to buy their products? Its not
an American thing, and your only treated as badly as you allow, on both
the customer and company side. Don't be a pushover, but also don't be a
bitch.
>
MLinzmaier
Kyle Disque
Melissa (mdil...@vt.edu) wrote:
<snipie>
: I'm confused. Do you think its wrong to demand service from a
: an American thing, and your only treated as badly as you allow, on both
: the customer and company side. Don't be a pushover, but also don't be a
: bitch.
Do you think it's okay to force a bad situation on a nice guy who's kept
his side of a bargin? Why not use a pistol next time?
IMHO, this guy was clearly wrong. He read the waranty and knew that he wasn't
covered. He had the opportunity to purchase a waranty (via a new boat) and
chose not to. When he needed that waranty and didn't have it he extorted
Woody and cost all of us money buy makeing an ass out of himself.
You may want to try to learn about "personal responsbility" from our friends
across the pond. Their attitude about this has kept them from becomming a
lawyer run libal based economy/society. They don't live in fear of owning
a piece of sidewalk, terrified that someone will take everything they own
if they trip.
Kyle
You know, next time I see Woody I'm gonna buy him a six pack (and I don't
even boat a Perception).
Melissa
In article <5biobb$p...@news1.voicenet.com>, dis...@voicenet.com says...
>
>>Do you think it's okay to force a bad situation on a nice guy who's kept
>his side of a bargin? Why not use a pistol next time?
No, I wasn't talking about Woody, I was talking about, in general,
there being a balance between customer service and customer
responsibility.
>
>IMHO, this guy was clearly wrong.
Yep he was, as I have posted earlier, but I wasn't talkin bout
that.
>
>You may want to try to learn about "personal responsbility" from our
friends across the pond. Their attitude about this has kept them from
becomming a lawyer run libal based economy/society. They don't live in
fear of owning a piece of sidewalk, terrified that someone will take
everything they own if they trip.
>
Kyle
Are you telling ME to learn about personal responsibility?! It
sounds like it. You need to relax and read what I wrote more carefully.
I was discussing customer/company relationships. Sometimes you DO need to
voice concerns about a companys product/service, and that has nothing to
do with our 'lawyer run libal based economy/society'.
>Jimmy
>
>
You know, next time I see Woody I'm gonna buy him a six pack (and I don't
even boat a Perception).
Your a genius, sounds like what I wrote last week.
Kyle Disque
Melissa aka Jimmy (mdil...@vt.edu) wrote:
: In article <5biobb$p...@news1.voicenet.com>, dis...@voicenet.com says...
: >
: >>Do you think it's okay to force a bad situation on a nice guy who's kept
: >his side of a bargin? Why not use a pistol next time?
: No, I wasn't talking about Woody, I was talking about, in general,
: there being a balance between customer service and customer
: responsibility.
Having re-read your statement I can see how, on its own, it could refer
to "in general".
However, the message you followed up was specifically addressed to the
incident with Woody.
IMHO, the guy from the UK who was shocked at this attitude is right. I think
that, in general, most boat makers are being pretty damn generous. Especially
in this (Woody) context. To advocate that you (the boater) should be more
strong willed hardly seems necessary. In this situation, at least, I'd say
he was plenty strong willed.
: >
: >IMHO, this guy was clearly wrong.
: Yep he was, as I have posted earlier, but I wasn't talkin bout
: that.
Glad we agree.
: >
: >You may want to try to learn about "personal responsbility" from our
: friends across the pond. Their attitude about this has kept them from
: becomming a lawyer run libal based economy/society. They don't live in
: fear of owning a piece of sidewalk, terrified that someone will take
: everything they own if they trip.
: >
: Kyle
: Are you telling ME to learn about personal responsibility?! It
: sounds like it. You need to relax and read what I wrote more carefully.
: I was discussing customer/company relationships. Sometimes you DO need to
: voice concerns about a companys product/service, and that has nothing to
: do with our 'lawyer run libal based economy/society'.
Yes I am. You above consideration? I may also need to learn from the
example set in Europe.
It has everything to do with our screwed up civil legal system. People here
are never willing to take responsibility for their actions. They want
either the gov or big business to be their big brother. Many folks,
specifically this guy, are unwilling to take responsibility for himself and
his actions (broke the boat) and his decisions (skipped the waranty). He
wanted Woody (Perception) to take responsbility for him. This may be an
extreme case, but a little bit of this attitude is in all of us Yanks, and it
sucks.
I didn't mean this as a personal attack on you, but on all of us. We need
to take responsibility for ourselves more often, or our boats are gonna cost
$5,000.
: You know, next time I see Woody I'm gonna buy him a six pack (and I don't
: even boat a Perception).
: Your a genius, sounds like what I wrote last week.
I guess Woody's gonna be a happy man after all.
Kyle
BTW: please use the standard convention for quoting, the above quote looks
you wrote it all, and you didn't. Thanks.
Knoll Jeremy L
: How does Pyranah's plastic compare to other boats?
: - compared to Prijon's blow-molded plastic
: - compared to crosslink
: - compared to linear (note that the linear plastics seem to vary a lot
: from company to company)
:
: My experiences (in descending order of apparent durability):
: 1 - Prijon Hurricane (HTP?) - awesome
: 2 - Dagger Crossfire (X-link) - very good
: 2 - New Wave Sleek (X-link) - very good
: 4 - Perception Dancer (linear) - not bad but a little soft
: 5 - Dagger RPM (linear) - really soft
From my experience, Prijon/Eskimo are the most durable on the market. HTP
plastic is the strongest currently used, and it is fully repairable should
damage occur. Euro-Kayaks are also made of HTP plastic, but are
roto-molded with an inert gas unlike Prijon/Eskimo boats which are
blow-molded. These boats are also extremely durable and can be repaired.
After these companies I would personally prefer boats made out of linear
plastic over crosslinked, because they can be repaired. In a major impact,
the likelihood that the force of the impact would damage a linear and not
a crosslinked boat is very minimal. So while crosslinked plastic is a
little more durable than linear (excluding HTP) it cannot be repaired.
After numerous cartwheels in shallow holes I've done some damage to the
stern of my Prijon Hurricane, but I was easily able to repair the damage,
something I was thankful for.
In my order, I would rate the companies as follows:
1. Prijon/Eskimo (blow molded linear HTP)
2. Euro-Kayaks (roto molded with inert gas linear HTP)
3. Savage Designs (is it linear or crosslinked? boats seem well made)
4. Pyranha (roto molded linear plastic)
5. Perception (roto molded linear plastic)
6. Dagger (the new linear plastic doesn't seem to good, but the old linear
was pretty good)
7. New Wave and Wave Sport (both use rotomolded crosslinked plastic)
Jeremy Knoll, Co-President
Queen's University Wild Water Club
Kingston, Ontario
Canada
Witness002
Yes, HTP is a grade of HDPE. Don't recall at the moment what it stands
for; it's some Deutsche thang, I do believe; let's just call it
"High-molecular-weight ThermoPlastic." (For German, insert a "k" where
you see a "c," and you'll be fine.) I imagine it's an especilly Big Bubba
Molecule linear PE. That would have the melt strength necessary for
blowmolding of big items, like boats.
Good boats, including the Hurricane. But the surface looks like it's had
some rock scratches, even on a virgin boat!
Riviera Ratt
RBounds420
Perception treated me more than fairly. Many years ago I had a Dancer
crack around the cockpit. Wrote Perception about the problem and although
the boat was second hand- they gave me a great deal on a replacement. How
could I expect more. I also later purchased a Pirouette that has taken
more abuse than Rocky Balboa. This boat should be toast by now, but is
still functional, although not on V type creeks. Sometimes the skill is
in missing the rocks, sometimes the skill is in using the rocks, and
sometimes the skill is in getting the boat of the damn rock!!!!
Paul Schelp
witne...@aol.com (Witness002) wrote:
>Yes, HTP is a grade of HDPE. Don't recall at the moment what it stands
>for; it's some Deutsche thang, I do believe; let's just call it
>"High-molecular-weight ThermoPlastic." (For German, insert a "k" where
>you see a "c," and you'll be fine.) I imagine it's an especilly Big Bubba
>Molecule linear PE. That would have the melt strength necessary for
>blowmolding of big items, like boats.
HTP is an abbreviation of the German spelling of "high-performance
thermoplastic." It is a high-molecular-density polyethylene. In fact,
it cannot be melted (and maintain it's structure), which is why it is
not used in rotomolded kayak manufacturing (ie, non-Prijon-built
boats).
Instead of melting plastic, the blow molding technique extrudes a sort
of HTP goo into a 5-ton boat mold and "blows" it into shape at 50 psi.
The blow molder itself is a huge and expensive machine that weighs
something like 45 tons.