Peggy Hall- your advice stinks...
Larry
wrote:
>Thanks (I think)...:-)
>
Didja ever notice that no matter WHAT a boat hose connects to, or
WHERE it goes to.....it stinks really bad!
Fuel hoses
Vent hoses
Bilge pump hoses
Sanitation hoses
Sink drain hoses
Air conditioner hoses
Shower sump hoses
Propane hoses
slimy green dock hoses
hoses wrapped around docklines to prevent chafing
engine cooling hoses
engine drain hoses
scupper drain hoses
seawater supply hoses
seawater drain hoses
shower hoses
It's a wonder the whole boat doesn't stink to high heaven!
larry
Peggie Hall
> WHERE it goes to.....it stinks really bad!
None of it has to. All it takes to keep a boat smelling fresh is a
little effort... Cleaning the bilges once or twice a year--really
CLEANING 'em and rinsing all the dirty water out instead of just dumping
in bilge cleaner and/or bleach--works wonders. Same for sumps and
drains. Read the articles "Boat Odor Isn't All in Your Head," "Head
Related Odors," and "Intake Odor Cure" at
http://www.boated.com/pres/phmenu.htm
Peggie
Terry K
>
> On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 22:18:32 GMT, Peggie Hall <peg...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Thanks (I think)...:-)
> >
> Didja ever notice that no matter WHAT a boat hose connects to, or
> WHERE it goes to.....it stinks really bad!
>
> Fuel hoses
> Vent hoses
> Bilge pump
>Criminally incomlete list of olfactory offenders snipped<
> seawater supply hoses
> seawater drain hoses
> shower hoses
>
It's [no] wonder the whole boat [] stink[s] to high heaven!
[-tk]
>
> larry
Of course it does! You are just used to most smells, and don't
even notice your own odour, like everyone else does. [contrived
weasle ambiguity -tk]
I am certain that that is why Sir Walter Raleigh was so popular.
The not so disagreeable stench of tobacco masked all of the body
odour common in darker ages. Now, we have to put up with the
irritating chemicals painted over our stinky pits.
If your boat stinks, wash it. If it still stinks - paint
everything, burn incense, or take up the pipe, just don't inhale.
As if the ocean, mother of all sewers, didn't have a certain air
of her own, to which we simply become accustomed, even enamoured?
In other words, get used to it. If there were no smells, we
would not need noses. Some people are so spoiled in their
floating mel mack and formica hobby houses stuffed with plastic
flowers and rosewater air fresheners!
Exposure to filth is good for you, it keeps your immune system
cranked up, and makes you appreciate fresh air, as if there were
any left, anywhere on earth.
Excessive cleanliness weakens your system, like lack of
excercise. Everyone should wear a little cloth bag of poop and
rotting mouse feet around their necks. Why do you think those
voodoo queens live to be so old, or is that just old looking? Do
you think that stuff ever stops smelling, or do we just get used
to it? All of our great outdoors are full of old crap and dead
varmits, yet we think of it as being full of fresh air.
How do you think people survived before they invented wiping
their arses? Only some humans ever wipe - wonder why? Excessive
fastidiousness! Deforestation due to wasteful manufacture of TP
and market shortage caused high prices, that's why! It's all the
fault of capitalism, I tell you. Outlaw water closets! Jail
defecators! Recycle libraries!
Or as an old hippie pot smoker told me, back when I was 19,
"Everything should be free, man."
Human's noses are every bit as sensitive as dogs'. It is just
our excessive processing capacity and social 'graces' beaten into
us that allow us to fool ourselves into thinking that the ambient
stench smells 'normal.' Concrete stinks!
Where's my diazaspasm?-;
---
Terry K - My email address is MY PROPERTY, and is protected by
copyright legislation. Permission to reproduce it is
specifically denied for mass mailing and unrequested
solicitations. Reproduction or conveyance for any unauthorised
purpose is THEFT and PLAGIARISM. Abuse is Invasion of privacy
and harassment. Abusers will be prosecuted.
Peggie Hall
or full cabin with a head compartment? Where IS "the lowest inhabitable
section of the boat"--forward or aft in the cabin? Where (how far from
the toilet, above or below it) do you consder the appropriate location
for a macerator? What about the thru-hull to dump the tank...is there
one, and if so, where is it...above or below the waterline? What about
running a pumpout hose to the deck?
Give me as much as you can to help me visual the layout of your boat.
Peggie
Beach Bum wrote:
> Ok, Peggie. Can you help me with this conundrum? I've read your
> articles at boated.com, but I'm a bit stymied by my boat's
> construction. I have a port-potttie MSD, which was never "plumbed"
> from the factory. It is a "portable" unit. (Reminds me of the old
> 25" oak console TVs that were made portable by the mere addition of
> handles.) Anyhow, as you note, this is just really to heavy and prone
> to ACCIDENT in banging this thing out of the cabin, back the finger
> pier, down the dock and up to the waste repository. Since, the
> manufacturer saw fit to install this MSD in the lowest inhabitable
> section of the boat, how the heck do I try to plumb a workable vent?
> The manufacturer, now, tells me that newer models have a macerator
> pump. I have the appropriate location to install one and only boat
> in salt water. the three mile limit is no problem. Should I bother
> with a pump out? What would you do?
Peggie Hall
thru-hull on a powerboat only has to be a foot or so above the
waterline. Since planing effectively lowers the waterline when you're
underway, you don't have to worry about any "ram water" effect flooding
the tank...and splashing in heavy seas or a chop won't send any down the
vent either.
So run the vent off the tank directly to the hull...it doesn't look like
it would be more than a couple of feet--which is ideal...you can go
under the berth, curving up slightly if you need to. I'd knock out the
existing 5/8" vent fitting and replace it with a 1"...but that's up to
you. You'll also need to put a thru-hull in the side of the boat.
Marelon is ok...just don't use nylon, it's not UV resistant.
Macerator location is ok if it's within a foot of the tank...but you're
also gonna need a hole in the boat to pump the waste out of. It SHOULD
be below the waterline, for a couple of reasons: above the waterline
you'll have waste stains to wash off your gelcoat...below, the sea will
do it for you. Above, you get to smell it as it goes overboard...below,
you don't. Since you don't want to watch it either, I'd go with a
diaphragm pump instead of an impeller macerator...diaphragms can run dry
without harm for quite a while...running dry for only a minute fries
impellers...Plus, when not used for a while, impellers can stick to the
housing, then start-up cracks a vane, putting an end to dumping the
tank. Diaphragms need almost -0- maintenance. Diaphragm pumps cost a
bit more, but it only takes a few replacement impellers to make up the
difference.
A hole in the boat below the waterline also requires a seacock (which
should ALWAYS remain closed except when actually dumping the
tank!)...and a vented loop that's at least 8-12' above the waterline
between the pump and the thru-hull. Water always seeks its own
level...since your tank is below the waterline, without a loop, water
outside the boat will seek its own level INside the boat--inside the
portapotty tank, which can make a BIG mess even if it doesn't sink the
boat. A pump will slow it down, but no pump can stop water from seeping
through it.
So it might be easier to just install a pumpout hose and deck fitting
instead of all that underwater/below waterline hardware. You can run the
pumpout hose right next to the vent and just go straight up (a radius in
the pumpout line is fine) to the deck at the hull. 40" is no problem for
any pumpout.
I've added arrows to your drawing to show where I THINK the plumbing
should be able to go with no problems.
Peggie
>
> * *
> *________ _____*
> *<<<<<<<<<<(_)[___]| *
> * Berth?| | *
> * | @ | *
> * | | *
> * | *
> * *
> * *
> *
Rooi Nek
"Peggie Hall" <peg...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3D57CEE...@nospam.com...
> Not as bad as it could be...I was afraid it was a sailboat.
Peggie,
I have acquired a sailboat that currently has no connected holding tank -
head discharges over board via a vented loop. We have an opportunity to do
a proper installation.
The boat has a built in holding tank that was never connected. This tank is
fibreglass (gelcoat on inside) and is part of the V-berth moulding. It is
currently used as a storage locker. Top is currently loose and is flush with
V-berth (right under cushions). The bottom of the tank is just at the water
line - the head is partly below the waterline.
I would appreciate your comments on my plan:
Basic Connections
----------------------
- remove vented loop and run head discharge to top of tank (inlet exists)
- connect deck waste plate to low point connection of holding tank.
- connect existing tank vent nozzle to deck vent located high in anchor
well.
Possible additional Connections
--------------------------------------
- Add y-valve (or tee and 2 valves) low down on line leading to deck waste
plate and connect to existing waste through hull - because tank is above
water line, idea is to just let it drain when offshore.
- Add second vent line to new hull vent that could be high in hanging
locker. (or would it be better to just increase vent size to say 1" so there
is less tubing ?)
- Add water flush nozzle to holding tank connected to water inlet located in
anchor locker (or add 4" deck plates to top of holding tank to allow hose
cleaning)
Holding tank
---------------
Tank is 40 usgal. Lid is currently wood and is loose. No baffles, but there
are moulded in supports that are probably for this purpose.
I am thinking about installing two athwartships baffles and maybe one or two
the other way like an eggcrate. These and the cover will probably be made
from 1/2 or 3/8" polyethylene unless there is something better. Not sure how
high the baffles need to be. Presumably they need some holes?
Head
------
Seems to work OK except for small leak around pump rod. I have not been able
to identify type - it has a knurled metal knob that must be screwed up and
down to control dry bowl. Because it may not be in current catalogues, is
this enough to identify this type of head? - it is not the ITT/Brydon type
common in our area.
In a way, I would like to keep the existing holding tank as storage.
However, it may be hard to find a large enough space for another tank, but I
suppose I could have one fabricated - It would probably then have to be a
metal tank.
Any ideas, comments welcomed.
RN
Josh Assing
to solve my issues.. but I have a sailboat.. <G>
---
Use my email, domain: jassing.com, emailid josh
Peggie Hall
a sailboat when the tank is low in the boat. Read "Holding Tank
Odor--Odor Out the Vent" at http://www.boated.com/pres/phmenu.htm for
the complete explanation.
Peggie
peg...@sbcglobal.net
Ian Wright
>
>It's a wonder the whole boat doesn't stink to high heaven!
>
It does,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you're just used to it.
Remember how Grandma's house smelt 'funny'? Well yours smelt 'funny'
to Grandma.
Probably.
Ian Wright, Patience, Vertue 203
Peggie Hall
is longer than 10'(6-8' is better),the v-berth location is ideal for a
holding tank on a sailboat (see "Holding Tank Odor--Odor Out the Vent"
at http://www.boated.com/pres/phmenu.htm )...and the rest of your plan
is fine, except--
I don't like tankage that's integral to the hull--for several reasons...
Fiberglass is water absorbent and over time blisters or worse problems
can develop that can be very expensive to repair. They also limit
options...and needs change with the times and with owners. The time can
very easily come in 5, 10, 15 years--WELL within the lifespan of any
boat that isn't totally neglected and abused--when treatment technology
could make holding tanks obsolete..the toilet does it all. Or just
suppose that you or a future owner wants less waste holding and more
potable water storage...but can an integral space be used for ANYthing
else after it's held waste--or fuel?
That doesn't mean you can't use that space for waste holding, only that
I recommend you drop a tank into it that can be removed, for replacement
or permanently. Yes, you'd lose a little capacity...but 35 gallons is
only a few flushes less than 40. Ronco Plastics
http://www.ronco-plastics.com makes excellent thick-walled water and
waste holding tanks for a VERY reasonable price...has more than 400
shapes and sizes--over a 100 of which are non-rectangular, including bow
shaped--and installs fittings in the sizes and locations YOU specify. So
I think you can find an adequate size tank for your space in their catalog.
>
> Basic Connections
> ----------------------
> - remove vented loop and run head discharge to top of tank (inlet exists)
If you spend a lot of time at sea beyond 3 miles, why not leave the loop
in, and just install a y-valve that'll let you choose between flushing
directly overboard at sea and going into the tank in coastal waters...
> - connect deck waste plate to low point connection of holding tank.
When you order the tank, IF you can find a fit that gives you at least
5" clearance above the tank, specify ALL the fittings on the top of the
tank, with a tube inside on the discharge...that eliminates standing
sewage in any hose to permeate it, and also makes re-hosing a lot
easier. If you don't have 5" clearance, it won't work, so yes, connect
to lowest point on the tank.
> - connect existing tank vent nozzle to deck vent located high in anchor
> well.
I'd come out the hull (read the article)...that's far enough forward to
keep the thru-hull out of the water when you're heeled.
> Possible additional Connections
> --------------------------------------
> - Add y-valve (or tee and 2 valves) low down on line leading to deck waste
> plate and connect to existing waste through hull - because tank is above
> water line, idea is to just let it drain when offshore.
Definitely a y-valve. And keep it CLOSED to the thru-hull except when
you want to dump the tank...again, to keep standing sewage from sitting
in the hose to permeate it.
> - Add second vent line to new hull vent that could be high in hanging
> locker. (or would it be better to just increase vent size to say 1" so there
> is less tubing ?)
A single 1" vent should do it. If you need two, come out the other side
of the bow, so that one or the other is always into the wind no matter
what tack you're on.
> - Add water flush nozzle to holding tank connected to water inlet located in
> anchor locker (or add 4" deck plates to top of holding tank to allow hose
> cleaning)
If that hose is connected to your fresh water supply, don't even think
of connecting anything to it that comes in contact with waste. If not,
either plan will work.
> Holding tank
> ---------------
> Tank is 40 usgal. Lid is currently wood and is loose. No baffles, but there
> are moulded in supports that are probably for this purpose.
More likely structural to the boat.
> I am thinking about installing two athwartships baffles and maybe one or two
> the other way like an eggcrate.
Why? I've never seen a holding tank under 100 gallons that was baffled.
Everyone worries about the effect of shifting ballast, but it never
seems to be a problem on any boat that has unbaffled tanks, no matter
where the tank is located. Save your time, energy and money for projects
that NEED to be done.
> Head
> ------
> Seems to work OK except for small leak around pump rod. I have not been able
> to identify type - it has a knurled metal knob that must be screwed up and
> down to control dry bowl. Because it may not be in current catalogues, is
> this enough to identify this type of head? - it is not the ITT/Brydon type
> common in our area.
I have no idea what it is, but your description sounds a bit antique. Is
it a piston/cylinder pump? If so, and it's more than about 5 years,
you're better off replacing it.
> In a way, I would like to keep the existing holding tank as storage.
> However, it may be hard to find a large enough space for another tank, but I
> suppose I could have one fabricated - It would probably then have to be a
> metal tank.
Noooo! No metal! I LIKE your v-berth location unless the head is aft in
the cabin...if that's the case, we need to find another location.
You don't say what size the boat is, or how much time you spend
offshore. Maybe you can have it both ways...you may not need more than
about 20-25 gallons which would allow you to keep half the space as storage.
Peggie
Rooi Nek
"Peggie Hall" <peg...@nospam.com> wrote >
> I don't like tankage that's integral to the hull--for several reasons...
> else after it's held waste--or fuel?
Good Point - The tank is not actually integral with the hull, but is part of
the V-berth liner molding - The ribs were intended for baffles (seen on a
similar boat) but I accept your advice that I dont need them! I will look
into the Ronco tanks or something similar here in Canada.
> > - remove vented loop and run head discharge to top of tank (inlet
exists)
>
> If you spend a lot of time at sea beyond 3 miles, why not leave the loop
> in, and just install a y-valve that'll let you choose between flushing
> directly overboard at sea and going into the tank in coastal waters...
Peggy - here I must disagree - I wish all boats cruising in non pumpout
areas had holding tanks. Have you ever thought out what may be in the water
when you want to dive in for a swim in a "pristine" looking Bahamas or
Caribbean cove? At least on our own boat, we would want to use the holding
tank when at anchor and then discharge while sailing. Here in the Great
lakes, we have to use the holding tank all of the time (but we can swim
safely!), but our intention is to head South again to Florida & Bahamas.
> When you order the tank, IF you can find a fit that gives you at least
> 5" clearance above the tank, specify ALL the fittings on the top of the
> tank
Sounds like a good idea! Ronco show a bottom connection with a downward loop
to fully empty the tank - I doubt you would agree :)
Thanks for your help
RN
Peggie Hall
>>>
> exists)
>
>>If you spend a lot of time at sea beyond 3 miles, why not leave the loop
>>in, and just install a y-valve that'll let you choose between flushing
>>directly overboard at sea and going into the tank in coastal waters...
>>
>
> Peggy - here I must disagree - I wish all boats cruising in non pumpout
> areas had holding tanks. Have you ever thought out what may be in the water
> when you want to dive in for a swim in a "pristine" looking Bahamas or
> Caribbean cove?
I'm not suggesting that you flush overboard in a cove, only when you're
well out to sea. Why fill up a holding tank just to dump it? Even at
sea, one flush at a time has far less negative impact than 20-40
gallons. When in waters where flushing overboard is either illegal or
an undesirable option, use the the tank.
Peggie
Rooi Nek
"Peggie Hall" <peg...@nospam.com> wrote
> > Peggy - here I must disagree - I wish all boats cruising in non pumpout
> > areas had holding tanks. Have you ever thought out what may be in the
water
> > when you want to dive in for a swim in a "pristine" looking Bahamas or
> > Caribbean cove?
>
>
> I'm not suggesting that you flush overboard in a cove, only when you're
> well out to sea. Why fill up a holding tank just to dump it? Even at
> sea, one flush at a time has far less negative impact than 20-40
> gallons. When in waters where flushing overboard is either illegal or
> an undesirable option, use the the tank.
>
Peggie,
To achieve this, I would need to have two ways to discharge overboard - One
straight from the head and one from the holding tank. Correct?
If I have just the discharge from the holding tank, we don't have to FILL it
while we are anchored in the cove do we :) We will just pump out whatever
is collected when we are at sea (because there are no pump out facilities in
most idyllic cruising areas.)
RN
Rosalie B.
Or use a treatment system like LectraSan.
I thought it was egregious of Highborne Cay in the Bahamas to not allow any
discharge overboard of any black water whether treated or not (in a marina
in an area with virtually no water flow), when they also had no pump-out
facilities and NO TOILETS to use when you were there. So you virtually HAD
to periodically leave the marina to dump your holding tank. It's bad
enough where they DO have shore based toilets to use.
grandma Rosalie
Paul Schilter
It must be nicer on your side of the pond, I live close to Lake St. Clair
which both Canada and the USA border. We have beaches closed all too frequently
for e-coli (sp?). Heck here the cities dump their waste into the rivers that
feed Lake St. Clair when storm waters exceed their ability to hold the waste in
retention ponds. They're trying to address it but it'll cost millions.
Paul
"Rooi Nek" <nos...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:6TW59.4772$3a.9...@read1.cgocable.net...
> snipped