Tie bowline under tension?
Phil Somers
tension, but I have not been able to find it again. The concept was to
be able to tie a bowline around yourself while there was tension on the
line, such as if you were being dragged in the water. Somehow, you are
able to take a couple of twists in the line, and essentially tie it
without releasing either hand. Seems difficult, but I remember being
impressed with the description because it worked.
Anyone know of such a method. I know where there are lots and lots
of descriptions how to tie regular bowlines, but can't find the one for
under tension. Any assistance would be appreciated.
--
_________________________________
Phil Somers
mailto:som...@king.igs.net
http://www.king.igs.net/~somersp
_________________________________
roger collins
Do you mean the good old fashioned 'I'm swinging from a crystal chandelier by
one hand, with no clothes on and the flames are getting closer' technique
much used by climbers just before they shout 'tight!!' or 'below!!!' -
all of course with only one hand free ????????????????
The Method:
Holding the short end in your free hand pass it over then going under the
long bit and then, over the long bit going away from you. Next you pass it
under and over the loop around you and there - hey presto is your bowline
Hope this helps??
(probably need graphics simulator to download these instructions in a
comprehensible manner - but it does work - trust me!!
RogerC
Peter W. Meek
>You have to keep the tension off the knot itself while you are tieing
>it.
>
>Hold the standing part of the line with your left hand.
>
>With the end of the line between two fingers of your right hand, place
>your hand (and the end of the line) over the standing part (between
>your left hand and your body), and put your thumb under the standing
>part. Twist your right hand toward your body(picking up the standing
>part in the process), and you should form the "rabbit hole", with the
>"rabbit" already passing through it.
>
>It is then a simple matter of working the end of the line under the
>standing part and back down the hole (and getting your right hand out
>of the knot!)
>
>An exercise for the student: do this with the loop way from you
>(perhaps around a piling).
This is *really* worth practicing. Tie the other end of
the rope to something solid; grab the rope with left
(or non-master) hand; pass the end behind you (left,
behind, and back around to front on right); tie the
knot with your right hand, between your left hand and
your body while leaning back on the rope you are holding
in your left hand. This simulates getting a loop
around your body while in the water or hanging in a
precarious position.
--
--Pete
pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
rec.boats caps at:
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/cap-main.html
meuz...@my-dejanews.com
> A few years ago, I saw a description of how to tie a bowline under
> tension, but I have not been able to find it again. The concept was to
> be able to tie a bowline around yourself while there was tension on the
> line, such as if you were being dragged in the water. Somehow, you are
> able to take a couple of twists in the line, and essentially tie it
> without releasing either hand. Seems difficult, but I remember being
> impressed with the description because it worked.
>
> Anyone know of such a method. I know where there are lots and lots
> of descriptions how to tie regular bowlines, but can't find the one for
> under tension. Any assistance would be appreciated.
A bowline essentially consists of two interwoven loops; one in the standing
end and one in the bitter end. Thus, a finished bowline cannot be tied under
so much tension that the loop in the standing end cannot be maintained while
the knot is being made. However, there are two derivative, or "capsized"
forms of the bowline in which one of the loops has been straightened out.
These can be made by taking the bight of a loosely tied bowline in one hand
and tensioning either of the ends with the other hand. The most common
capsized form can be obtained by straigthening the bitter end and looks like
a single overhand knot in the standing end with the bitter end passed through
the bight. This capsized form is being used by mountain climbers to tie
themselves into a rope and can even be used when neither end is available
(e.g. to tie in between two other climbers)
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meuz...@my-dejanews.com
> A few years ago, I saw a description of how to tie a bowline under
> tension, but I have not been able to find it again. The concept was to
> be able to tie a bowline around yourself while there was tension on the
> line, such as if you were being dragged in the water. Somehow, you are
> able to take a couple of twists in the line, and essentially tie it
> without releasing either hand. Seems difficult, but I remember being
> impressed with the description because it worked.
>
> Anyone know of such a method. I know where there are lots and lots
> of descriptions how to tie regular bowlines, but can't find the one for
> under tension. Any assistance would be appreciated.
A bowline essentially consists of two interwoven loops; one in the standing
end and one in the bitter end. Thus, a finished bowline cannot be tied under
so much tension that the loop in the standing end cannot be maintained while
the knot is being made. However, there are two derivative, or "capsized"
forms of the bowline in which one of the loops has been straightened out.
These can be made by taking the bight of a loosely tied bowline in one hand
and tensioning either of the ends with the other hand.
The most common capsized form can be obtained by straigthening the bitter end
and looks like a single overhand knot in the standing end with the bitter end
passed once through the bight. This capsized form is often being used by
mountain climbers to tie themselves into a rope and can even be used when
neither rope end is available (e.g. to tie yourself in between two already
roped-in climbers while traversing a snowbridge). After the capsized form is
obtained a firm pull on the standing end will "uncapsize" the knot into a real
bowline.
In situations where the standing end is already under great tension only the
second, rarely used, capsized form can be tied in. This form is too complex
to describe here here but you can see for yourself what it looks like by
capsizing a loosely tied bowline (using relatively thick and firm rope) with
tension on the standing end. This capsized form can be tied in under great
tension (e.g. in a situation where you just passed a jibsheet through the
clew and a windgust got hold of the genoa before you could tie in a bowline)
by only using the bitter end. The knot produced is a pretty good temporary
hitch in its own right and can be "uncapsized" into a bowline (though often
not without some difficulty) by pulling strongly on the bitter end when the
tension on the standing end is temporarily relieved.
Hope this helps.
Flying Dutchman
Phil Somers
>
> On Fri, 01 Jan 1999 01:46:38 GMT, pet...@interchange.ubc.ca (Peter Bennett) wrote:
>
> >You have to keep the tension off the knot itself while you are tieing
> >it.
> >
> >Hold the standing part of the line with your left hand.
> >
> >With the end of the line between two fingers of your right hand,
>
Thanks very much to Peter Bennett and Peter Meek, and several others
who provided
excellent insight into this issue. I do think it is well worth
practicing, and I have been
doing just that since Peter Bennett's especially clear description.
However, with the outside
temperature this morning of -30C, it may be some time until I get to try
it off the stern of
the boat!
Thanks again to all.
... Phil
SV Born Free
ZCommander
as a "One Handed Bowline" I'm not sure if this is the knot you are seeking
but I can tie it with some tension on the line.
To practice it take a line around your back holding the bitter end in you right
hand and the standing end 'the one with tension' with your left. Lay your
right had (with the bitter end) over the standing end (between your body and
your left hand) and back under the standing end between your body and the
point where the two parts of the line meet. Without letting go of the bitter
end cross it under the standing end forward of mess you have created. Now
momentarily let go of the bitter end as it wraps over the standing end and
grasp it again. Lastly pull the bitter end through the spagatti and you
should have a bowline.
I can demonstrate it easier than describe it in writing, but only a little bit
so. If you are ever sailing on Lake St. Clair in Michigan I will be happy to
demo it for you for the fee of a wee dram of single malt Scotch.
Good Luck,
Chuck Rose
to someone in the water, tie a loop in the end with a bowline first
thereby eliminating the need for the following
Keith
in the hole" method. I used to teach this years ago in Boy Scouts, and
can tie a bowline in about 2 seconds this way.
Peter W. Meek
>Pay attention here folks; next time you have occasion to throw a line
>to someone in the water, tie a loop in the end with a bowline first
>thereby eliminating the need for the following
<snip long directions>
I don't agree for a couple of reasons. The person throwing
the rope may not read rec.boats.cruising, so you need to
be able to do it yourself. If the bowline is pre-tied, it
will need to be big enough to slip over your body. If you
tie it yourself in place, it can be snug enough that you
won't fall out if you lose consciousness during the rescue.
I'd just put an overhand or figure-eight knot to keep the
line from slipping out of the hands of the person in the
water, but not interfere with tying a bowline in place.
David Hord
Phil Somers <som...@king.igs.net> wrote in article
<368BE8F8...@king.igs.net>...
> A few years ago, I saw a description of how to tie a bowline under
> tension, but I have not been able to find it again. The concept was to
> be able to tie a bowline around yourself while there was tension on the
> line, such as if you were being dragged in the water. Somehow, you are
> able to take a couple of twists in the line, and essentially tie it
> without releasing either hand. Seems difficult, but I remember being
> impressed with the description because it worked.
>
Phil,
Yes, it's a "one handed bowline". I read about it in a article a long time
ago.
I learned to do it from the article, it's really simple. It startled
on-lookers when
I would tie it to pilings or dock cleats, in a fast double whip motion.
(they were very impressed, and thought I was some kind of "old salt", life
long sailor.) I'll try to draw up a description that makes sense, if I
can,
and e-mail it to you. I hadn't thought of using it when being drug by a
catch line
after falling overboard, because I single-hand, and drag a 100 foot yellow
Polly line. I just "loop a loop" around one hand at a time, if I go over
and grab the line. I also secure it via the leeward side of the transom,
to the tiller
so just one pull on the line moves the tiller to leeward, heading the boat
up into
the wind, and putting her "in irons", and she'll just sit there and wait
for me to
pull myself back up to her, and climb in using the swim ladder. (which has
a
pull down rope attached to it.) That way I don't get drug by the boat and
swallow
an unwanted portion of the Atlantic Ocean. That way, I don't really need
to secure myself to the tow line. Let me know if you want the drawing,
I'll try to get one
made up.
Good luck, and good sailing.
Dave Hord.
TCook
wrote:
>Yes, it's a "one handed bowline". I read about it in a article a long time
>ago
The one handed bowline routine is a standard requirement with rock
climbers who, perhaps even more than sailors, need to keep one hand
for the rock <g> Interestingly, one of our Power Squadron instructors
demonstrates it during a basic boating course.
Tony Cook, Webmaster
http://www.searoom.com
meuz...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Phil Somers <som...@king.igs.net> wrote in article
> <368BE8F8...@king.igs.net>...
> > A few years ago, I saw a description of how to tie a bowline under
> > tension, but I have not been able to find it again. The concept was to
> > be able to tie a bowline around yourself while there was tension on the
> > line, such as if you were being dragged in the water. Somehow, you are
> > able to take a couple of twists in the line, and essentially tie it
> > without releasing either hand. Seems difficult, but I remember being
> > impressed with the description because it worked.
> >
> Phil,
> I learned to do it from the article, it's really simple. It startled
> on-lookers when
> I would tie it to pilings or dock cleats, in a fast double whip motion.
> (they were very impressed, and thought I was some kind of "old salt", life
> long sailor.)
Phil and David,
Neither the one-handed bowline practiced by sailors, who often form the
characteristic loop ("the rabbit's hole") in the standing end around their
wrist with a twisting motion and then pull the rabbit through the hole with
their fingers and thumb etc., nor the one-handed bowline practiced by
climbers, who first tie a capsized version consisting of a slipped overhand
knot thru which the bitter end is passed and then "un-capsize" it, can be
tied in under real tension in the standing (or "working") part. Simply
because a strong pull on the standing part makes it impossible to pass the
bitter end through for the second time (the first pass through can be
completed under considerable tension by a simple twisting gimmick).
As I discussed earlier in this thread, only a second - rarely practiced -
capsized form of the bowline (which does not require any loop in the standing
part) can be tied in under real tension, e.g. when you just passed the end of
the jibsheet thru the clew of the genoa and a wind gust hit before you were
able complete your bowline.
Also, when David talks about tying a dockline around a piling with a "double
whip motion" I can almost see my grandfather demonstrate how to literally
THROW a clove hitch around a piling by lassoing it first with a single loop
and then "sending up" a second loop to complete a perfect clove hitch. He was
a professional sailor on the English Channel and several Dutch rivers during
WW I and they used this technique when there was nobody ashore to catch their
lines. I have never seen anyone do the same with a bowline, though. BTW, his
ship was torpedoed in the English Channel while he was in the hospital with
appendicitis (or else I would not be typing these lines now).
See yah out there!
Phil Somers
> > > A few years ago, I saw a description of how to tie a bowline under
> > > tension,
> capsized form of the bowline (which does not require any loop in the standing
> part) can be tied in under real tension,
I am still trying to fully appreciate your previous description of
the "rarely practiced capsized form". I sounds very compelling so I
will persist.
> Also, when David talks about tying a dockline around a piling with a "double
> whip motion" I can almost see my grandfather demonstrate how to literally
> THROW a clove hitch around a piling by lassoing it first with a single loop
> and then "sending up" a second loop to complete a perfect clove hitch.
Now this is also compelling! Can you teach us to do this one?
> his
> ship was torpedoed in the English Channel while he was in the hospital with
> appendicitis (or else I would not be typing these lines now).
We are also grateful for his appendicitis, to learn about these knots.
I recently read the "Riddle of the Sands", about the Dutch and German
coastal waters. They sound like a real challenge, and the book was a
great description of the sailing environment, but I didn't find the
story itself all that interesting.
meuz...@my-dejanews.com
> meuz...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > > A few years ago, I saw a description of how to tie a bowline under
> > > > tension,
>
> > As I discussed earlier in this thread, only a second - rarely practiced -
> > capsized form of the bowline (which does not require any loop in the
standing
> > part) can be tied in under real tension,
>
> I am still trying to fully appreciate your previous description of
> the "rarely practiced capsized form". I sounds very compelling so I
> will persist.
I wish I could draw it for you. Just tie a VERY LOOSE bowline in a not too
thin (at least 1/4 ")braided nylon (slides better than Dacron) line and
straighten out first all of the loops and twists between the bitter end and
the bight by pulling (easy); then start all over and try to straighten out
all the loops and twists between the standing end and the bight (not so easy,
but you can do it), then you will see the hitch I am talking about, Now
practice how to tie it around a piling or bollard, etc.
> > Also, when David talks about tying a dockline around a piling with a
"double
> > whip motion" I can almost see my grandfather demonstrate how to literally
> > THROW a clove hitch around a piling by lassoing it first with a single loop
> > and then "sending up" a second loop to complete a perfect clove hitch.
>
> Now this is also compelling! Can you teach us to do this one?
Ah, that is the part I left out because I have spent hours practicing but was
never able to do it myself, although I came close. If you have the kind of
dynamic rope handling skills needed to twirl a lasso, you would probably have
a better start than I had. You can easily get and idea about what is involved
by loosely tying a clove hitch about a short vertical cylinder (piling,
bollard etc.) and then lifting off the upper of thw two loops. The remaining
loop is easy to produce by throwing an open loop (holding both ends)and
crossing the two rnds over. Now you take the lower of the two ends in your
right hand and start practicing to send a rolling, loop towards the bollard
by a quick rotary motion of your right hand (almost in a horizontal plane).
You have to figure out the best direction, speed and amplitude of that
motion. If you are good at it you can make the loop flip over the top of the
bollard and complete your clove hitch. Have fun; and please tell me if you
ever manage to get it right!
Does anyone else in the NG know where to find a better description of this
technique (i.e. throwing a clove hitch around a piling or bollard from 6-10 ft
distance)?
t.r.mcloughlin
> meuz...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > As I discussed earlier in this thread, only a second - rarely practiced -
> > capsized form of the bowline (which does not require any loop in the standing
> > part) can be tied in under real tension,
> I am still trying to fully appreciate your previous description of
> the "rarely practiced capsized form". I sounds very compelling so I
> will persist.
It's hard to explain, but I'll take a shot. The key (to me) was realizing
that there are *two* ways of getting the rabbit back down the hole
(so to speak).
Visualize: you are standing on a dock, you have a bow line, and you want
to tie around a pylon. This whole method is done using the bitter end only.
1) you pass the line around a pylon and position yourself
so the load is behind you, the pylon is in front of you.
The standing, loaded part extends behind you on your right.
2) You take the bitter end, pass it over, under, and through,
making a half hitch in the bitter end around the standing
part. (in a usual bowline, you want to twist a loop into
the standing part, so how do you get the standing part to
twist?) Give a sharp tug, pulling the bitter end straight
and transferring the loop to the standing end. See how that
works?
3a) Now, take the bitter end, pass it under the loaded standing
end, and aim it back toward the loop.
3b) The formation you now have is the proverbial rabbit, having
ventured out of the hole and take its morning constitution
around the tree, perpluzeled at how it can re-enter its
tightly closed hole.
3c) The rabbit realizes, in a vision of topological insight, that
the he can force his way down the hole by following the
spiral crack along the edge of the loop. (Look at it.) In order
to do this, you have to keep the "U" shape open so the bitter
end has room to pass through.
4) OK. It's magic time. Pass the bitter end into the large bight
(not the "rabbit hole") and, following the crack around the loop
and the standing part, back under the "U" shape. Now tug hard
toward the pylon and you squeeze the bitter end into the
rabbit hole.
It really is hard to explain, but if I could show you it would be easy.
trm
Steve Christensen
I've tried this, and it's neat - and does sort of work. But I wouldn't be so
sure about being able to UNDO the know under a load.
A round turn withdouble half hitch is the classic way of tying and untying a
line under a load. What's the advantage here of the bowline?
Steve
t.r.mcloughlin
> I've tried this, and it's neat - and does sort of work. But I wouldn't be so
> sure about being able to UNDO the know under a load.
>
> A round turn withdouble half hitch is the classic way of tying and untying a
> line under a load. What's the advantage here of the bowline?
If I really found myself having to tie a bowline around a piling under
load, I would *definirely* take a round turn on the post. Just because
it's hard to hold the tension without the round turn. The application
I can think of that would need a bowline instead of the half-hitches
is one where the load cycles. If the load was high at the time of
tying but cycle between slack and tiense, I could see the half-hitches
giving up during the slack part of the cycle.
Mostly, the bowline under tension is a novelty.
trm
Charlie Mayne
>> A round turn withdouble half hitch is the classic way of tying and untying a
>> line under a load. What's the advantage here of the bowline?
>... one where the load cycles. If the load was high at the time of
>tying but cycle between slack and tiense, I could see the half-hitches
>giving up during the slack part of the cycle.
Another advantage of the bowline is that the loop doesn't tighten and the
knot will not jam. A double half hitch can slip down against the thing
the loop is around, less so with a round turn. A rolling hitch is better
about staying put, but (like the double half hitch) can work loose if the
load cycles. A rolling hitch is great if the load doesn't go slack. It
can be easily tied on a very tight line and easily untied from a tight line.
You can slide the knot up and down (with some load removed) without untying
it. The knot can be tied and untied with one hand on a tight line. The end
can be safely slipped (a slipped square knot is a bow) to speed up releasing
the knot.
A rolling hitch is simply a double half hitch with an extra turn around the
standing part along with the first half hitch. It is a very useful knot.
Best regards,
Charlie
CS30 "Sprite"
--
Charlie Mayne | Motorola Incorporated
char...@risc.sps.mot.com | Microprocessor Products Group
| Austin, Texas 78735-8598
"I am concerned about my memory. But, for the life of me, I can't recall why."
Douglas King
> I recently read the "Riddle of the Sands", about the Dutch and German
> coastal waters. They sound like a real challenge, and the book was a
> great description of the sailing environment, but I didn't find the
> story itself all that interesting.
The book is written in the vernacular of the late Victorian- rather
stodgy by modern standards. Remember they didn't have MTV back then!
You might want to try the movie starring Michael York. Except for one
hokey storm scene and the obligatory Hollywoodish romance, it's very
good IMHO. The book is much more detailed about the cruising grounds and
the sailing.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
Major oz
Learned it in the Boy Scouts.
While holding line with left hand (dangling over a cliff, having been thrown a
line, etc), can tie in 2-3 seconds with right hand. It is a genuine bowline,
not a "funny' one.
Best instructions used to be in the BSA handbook -- don't know it they are
still there
Re: "throwing" a clove hitch.
Anyone who properly can roll cast a fly line can, with just a little practice,
throw a clove hitch. It's the same basic motion.
cheers
oz
Jim
in the slipknot.....pull on the other end of slipknot......
Voila...a bowline
Your welcome
TCook
<doug...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>The book is written in the vernacular of the late Victorian- rather
>stodgy by modern standards. Remember they didn't have MTV back then!
The book grows with repeat readings,at least for me. I first
encountered it as a class project in grammar school some 50-odd years
ago - didn't like it then. Picked it up again when I started sailing
some 10 years later and have had a copy with me ever since, usually
reading it once a year or so. Having a chart of the area helps.
A side comment - the author, Erskine Childers, was eventually
executed by the British for his activities in the Irish "Troubles" of
the '20s.
Ted Nilson
government for posessing a small calibre pistol.
Ted Nilson
--
TCook
But marriage to a strong-willed Bostonian and an increasing interest
in the affairs of Ireland led to his questioning the imperial
Zeitgeist. At first this took constitutional forms, but such was
Childers' frustration with progress towards any manner of Irish
independence from British rule, that on the eve of the First World War
he instigated gun-running to supporters of the Home Rule movement.
Nonetheless, he still regarded it as his duty to serve England, and
during the war he distinguished himself as an observer in the early
seaplanes and torpedo boats. Traumatized, however, by the Easter
Rising of 1916, he finished the war profoundly divided in his
loyalties. With the Irish question now critical, Childers settled his
fate by becoming the official propagandist for the Republican
movement. He opposed the treaty that established the Irish Free State,
regarding the compromise as anathema, and joined the IRA. Hunted by
the Free State authorities, he was eventually captured and executed in
November 1922.
..... I'm not properly conversant with Irish history, but I have
always believed that it was effectively the British who really
executed him.
Tony Cook, Webmaster
http://www.searoom.com
On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:58:34 -0500, "Ted Nilson" <tedd...@nac.net>
wrote:
Gerald Richter
1916 uprising. He smuggled several hundred Mauser rifles into Ireland in 1912
or 14 on his yacht the Asgaard for use by the Irish Republican Brotherhood.
The Asgaard is now on display in the yard at Kilmainham Jail museum in
Dublin. He was executed by the Irish Free State forces during the civil war
which followed the treaty with England. It is said that before his death he
shook the hand of every member of the firing squad.
Jerry Richter
TCook wrote:
--
=====================================================
Jerry Richter
1515 North 15th Street
Reading, PA 19604
(610) 374-5329
rich...@acape.org
======================================================