Marine SSB Licensing Question...HELP!
JHulet
My question is to those who use Marine SSB radios or know a little about how
the FCC regulates the use of Marine SSB.
My questions are;
1. What must one do to transmit on Marine SSB frequencies?
2. Does the operator of a Marine SSB station have to be "floating" on a boat?
Is there anything required to operate a Marine SSB radio from land? (ie, from
your home during the off season)
3. What are the requirements of owning and operating a Marine SSB radio?
I am an Amateur Radio Operator and have been listening to several Marine SSB
frequencies. I also own a sailboat and am interested in communications with
other boaters via Marine SSB. I live in Michigan and our sailing season is
limited to several months during the summer. I was listening to a Marine SSB
station in Michigan last night that was operating from what appeared to be land
(ie, home) to a sailor/cruiser in New York. I understand that a special permit
is required to operate a VHF Marine radio from land and this has sparked my
curiosity as to if you also need one to operate Marine SSB from land?
I have been to the USCG home page and have read through their pages on Marine
SSB but still am not sure I have digested it correctly.
Thank you
Jason
Traverse City, MI
bbr...@usa.net
You seem to be asking the same question looking for a dodge. Bottom
line is that Marine SSB at the recreational level is strictly for mobile
(floating) use. Base stations are given to commercial operators and
they are allowed different power levels based on projected need. Write
the FCC, they have handbooks that cover requirements etc.
What you may have been hearing was a dockside cruiser talking to someone
at sea or in a distant area. That happens all the time.
--
Bob Brake
bbr...@usa.net
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
John Purins
I'll try to answer your questions.
1. To operate a marine SSB radio, the vessel must have a license issued by
the FCC. The license may include other radio equipment. Note that it is
the vessel that is licensed and not the operator.
2. As far as if the operator has to be "floating" on a boat is concerned,
the answer would be yes. It is the vessel that is licensed as a marine
radio station. The SSB radio is not a portable handheld unit and as such
is presumed to remain with the vessel at all times. There is a provision
for the FCC to license SSB stations on shore but my understanding is that
this applies only to commercial or emergency services.
3. No FCC requirements for "owning" a SSB radio and no requirement for an
operator's permit as long as the vessel is within U.S. waters. If you go
offshore then a restricted radio-telephone operators permit is required.
Just complete the form and send it along with the fee to the FCC. No Morse
code or other training is required.
John Purins
JHulet <jhu...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990921031817...@ng-fs1.aol.com>...
Larry KN4IM
>Hello,
>
>My question is to those who use Marine SSB radios or know a little about how
>the FCC regulates the use of Marine SSB.
>
>My questions are;
>
>1. What must one do to transmit on Marine SSB frequencies?
Press mic button, speak in a normal voice. You need a "Ship License",
at $95, from the FCC lawyer/bureaucrats.
>2. Does the operator of a Marine SSB station have to be "floating" on a boat?
A ship license is only good on a ship actually in the water. It's NOT
a shore station license. There are no mobile 1 or mobile 2. The
license is for transmitters in only ONE location....the ship it's
licensed to.
>Is there anything required to operate a Marine SSB radio from land? (ie, from
>your home during the off season)
You need to put in for a SHORE station license, the kind marinas
have. You must demonstrate that you provide a valuable service to the
maritime PUBLIC, not just yourself. No, you cannot put one at home
just so you can talk to the wife from the boat.....nope.
>3. What are the requirements of owning and operating a Marine SSB radio?
>
US Citizenship, $95 cold cash, FCC forms. Consult the FCC's marine
webpage at:
http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/marine/
for instructions, pointers to downloadable required documents, etc.
Do NOT forget to submit Form 159 which must accompany any cash payment
to the untrustworthy FCC bureaucrats so they can track where the money
went! You'll need Form 506 (Ship station license application) and
Form 159 (money form) to apply. The webpage for all these
instructions is:
http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/marine/fctsht14.html
Fact Sheet 14 has all the facts for you....(c;
Larry KN4IM
>
>I am an Amateur Radio Operator and have been listening to several Marine SSB
>frequencies. I also own a sailboat and am interested in communications with
>other boaters via Marine SSB. I live in Michigan and our sailing season is
>limited to several months during the summer. I was listening to a Marine SSB
>station in Michigan last night that was operating from what appeared to be land
>(ie, home) to a sailor/cruiser in New York. I understand that a special permit
>is required to operate a VHF Marine radio from land and this has sparked my
>curiosity as to if you also need one to operate Marine SSB from land?
>
>I have been to the USCG home page and have read through their pages on Marine
>SSB but still am not sure I have digested it correctly.
>
Geoffrey W. Schultz
finished having a SEA 235 SSB installed on my Freedom 40 in preparations for
my sail from Newport, RI to the BVIs and then much further south during this
upcoming winter. Two of my major reasons for doing this were for SailMail
and weather fax. I've applied for my restricted marine license and my SSB
license. I've also sent in my application in for a SailMail account.
I think that I'm fairly well set on the SailMail side, but am wondering how I
find out what frequencies are used for weather fax that are specific to the
area that I'm in. For example, are there Caribbean weather specific
frequencies? What about as I proceed down the eastern seaboard?
I also understand that there are daily voice weather updates while in the
Caribbean. Can someone please provide more details on this such as
frequencies, times, etc? How does one find this information?
Also, I have several friends who are big time ham radio operators. Are there
limitations on the frequencies that we can use to communicate? In
conversations with one of these hams, he indicated that he couldn't operate on
the marine bands. Am I restricted to marine bands only, or are there bands
that we both can access?
Once again please realize that I'm completely new to this. Any help that can
be provided is greatly appreciated.
Geoff Schultz
Brian Grant
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/home.htm
Gene Gruender
John Purins wrote:
> Jason,
>
> I'll try to answer your questions.
>
> 1. To operate a marine SSB radio, the vessel must have a license issued by
> the FCC. The license may include other radio equipment. Note that it is
> the vessel that is licensed and not the operator.
>
> 2. As far as if the operator has to be "floating" on a boat is concerned,
> the answer would be yes. It is the vessel that is licensed as a marine
> radio station. The SSB radio is not a portable handheld unit and as such
> is presumed to remain with the vessel at all times. There is a provision
> for the FCC to license SSB stations on shore but my understanding is that
> this applies only to commercial or emergency services.
>
> 3. No FCC requirements for "owning" a SSB radio and no requirement for an
> operator's permit as long as the vessel is within U.S. waters. If you go
> offshore then a restricted radio-telephone operators permit is required.
> Just complete the form and send it along with the fee to the FCC. No Morse
> code or other training is required.
>
> John Purins
You are correct except for the operator's license. You must have an operators
license for the SSB. It happens to be the same as the one you would have for
the radio in a private plane. Cost last year was $45. It's good for life, or
until the paper wears out.
Gene Gruender
Rainbow Chaser
Peter Bennett
Schultz) wrote:
>I'll admit right from the start that I'm a complete radio/SSB novice. I just
<snip>
>Also, I have several friends who are big time ham radio operators. Are there
>limitations on the frequencies that we can use to communicate? In
>conversations with one of these hams, he indicated that he couldn't operate on
>the marine bands. Am I restricted to marine bands only, or are there bands
>that we both can access?
Hams can only operate in the ham bands, and you may only use your marine
radio in the marine bands - there is no frequency where both ham and marine
can both legally be used.
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver-webpages.com/van-ps
Jon V.
> Hams can only operate in the ham bands, and you may only use your marine
> radio in the marine bands - there is no frequency where both ham and marine
> can both legally be used.
This is true, but there is one additional datum that may be relevant... at
least if accurate.
Marine SSB radios will only transmit on Marine bands. Some ham radios will
transmit on both the ham bands *and* the Marine bands.
In other words, you may be well served by getting the HAM license and
buying the HAM equipment. You still need the ship's license to transmit on
the Marine bands, but you don't need two sets of radios, and you can talk
to anybody.
Anybody care to converse on the accuracy of that information?
-Jon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you aren't rich you should always look useful.
-- Louis-Ferdinand Celine
Larry KN4IM
the Carribean. Most all your questions can be answered at:
http://www.navcen.uscg.mil/marcomms/
and
http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/marine/
an invaluable site about NAVTEX, WEFAX, etc is:
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/home.htm
where NOAA has lots of marine weather information about your HF radio
gear. You can even listen to what the signal SHOULD sound like on:
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/radiofax.htm
towards the top of the webpage loaded with wefax information. You can
download the WEFAX transmitted products directly off the internet
(much faster than old radio) off this page, too, so you can see what
you should get on your wefax recorder. Alden makes the best ones.
The WEFAX USCG frequencies and schedule (sked in radio lingo) is at
the bottom of this webpage.
Radio FAX is received on an SSB receiver. The blackness and whiteness
of the pictures are DIRECTLY dependent on the audio tones FREQUENCIES
you hear from the speaker. That's what makes it work. You fine tune
the FREQUENCY of your receiver to adjust the contrast/picture. You'll
soon develop an "ear" for how it sounds, which is why you need to
listen to the webpage's audio posting to practice. The procedure for
tuning is also on this page and is very good. WEFAX takes FOREVER to
print....very slow analog because of all the HF radio noises. You
just get it started and see a sliver of picture printing right then go
away for an hour or so and do something else while it "downloads". At
least you don't have to stand there, like we did, and hand load a new
piece of burnable paper on the drum for EACH picture....it was awful.
>
>Also, I have several friends who are big time ham radio operators. Are there
>limitations on the frequencies that we can use to communicate? In
>conversations with one of these hams, he indicated that he couldn't operate on
>the marine bands. Am I restricted to marine bands only, or are there bands
>that we both can access?
Yes, ham radio operators operate on specific BANDS of frequencies, but
not specific frequencies, themselves. We must stay between these
frequencies limits. There are also restrictions on what mode you may
operate in different parts of each band, except 1.8-2.0.
You can learn all about ham radio and get the information you seek at:
http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/amateur/
and
http://www.arrl.org/ which is our national ham radio organization.
You can get training from a local ham radio club who also do the
testing under a volunteer examiner program you can read about at the
ARRL website, or you can take a course from Gordon West, who
specializes in teaching ham radio. His URL is:
http://www.gordonwestradioschool.com/
I believe he has a correspondence school with tapes, books, materials
that would be a great thing to take on a cruise. A lot of hams got
their license from Gordon West's School.
News and information about digital ham radio, packet, amtor, pactor,
gtor, and the other digital modes used in ham radio come from the
people who started it, the Tuscon Amateur Packet (TAPR) club.
TAPR sets the standards for ham radio digital comms. If you and your
shore-based friend had HF packet on 20 meters (a popular freq is
14.105Mhz), you both could communicate to the built-in mailboxes with
email, 24/7 completely unattended! In that same mode, you could also
tie your GPS to your packet modem and join us on APRS, the Automatic
Packet Reporting System. This was developed by a ham at Annapolis to
track the Naval Academy's boats and ships on tour. To see, LIVE, what
you can do with APRS, turn your Java and JAVA script on and go to:
http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs.html
Bob Bruninga, WB4APR, who invented APRS for the hams and Naval
Academy, has a VAST array of LIVE internet APRS sites to visit. Other
hams have them online from pointers on this page. You can track
satellites, USNA boats/ships, ham radio operators on HF and VHF all
across the country! Your ham radio friend, EVEN YOUR NON-HAM-RADIO
FAMILY (through this internet site online 24/7) could track your boat
anywhere in the Carribean on APRS's 10.151Mhz (it's just inside the
band limit on LSB). Every time you automatically transmitted your
GPS's data through your APRS-energized packet modem, you'd show up on
this webpage's 10.151Mhz APRS Java! We'd ALL know where you were and
that you were OK. You can even send short one-liner messages, report
the weather (even automatically if you have a wx station aboard), call
for help, etc......all through APRS. It's really a neat system that
has evolved into a LOT more than originally intended.....from hams for
hams.
Cruise around these websites and I hope it will help you and others to
get your SSB, and maybe ham radio, up and running.
Larry KN4IM......ex-WB4THE.....ex-WN2IWH in 1957....old goat.
>
>Once again please realize that I'm completely new to this. Any help that can
>be provided is greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Geoff Schultz
>
We were ALL new to this at one time! Got my first Novice ham license
at 11 yrs old in 1957. Ruined my whole life with ham radio,
electronics, computers.....(c;
Geoffrey W. Schultz
In article <37E8185E...@nospam.please.erols.com>, Brian Grant
<bmg...@nospam.please.erols.com> wrote:
>You might find what you want here.
>
>http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/home.htm
Geoff Schultz
Geoffrey W. Schultz
>On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Peter Bennett wrote:
>
>> Hams can only operate in the ham bands, and you may only use your marine
>> radio in the marine bands - there is no frequency where both ham and marine
>> can both legally be used.
>
>This is true, but there is one additional datum that may be relevant... at
>least if accurate.
>
>Marine SSB radios will only transmit on Marine bands. Some ham radios will
>transmit on both the ham bands *and* the Marine bands.
>
>In other words, you may be well served by getting the HAM license and
>buying the HAM equipment. You still need the ship's license to transmit on
>the Marine bands, but you don't need two sets of radios, and you can talk
>to anybody.
>
>Anybody care to converse on the accuracy of that information?
From this I draw the conclusion that since I've just purchased a SSB and don't
intend to go out and buy HAM equipment that the only possible way to
communicate with my HAM friends will be if they obtain the proper FCC license
and their equipment allows them to transmit on marine bands. Correct?
Geoff Schultz
Glenn Ashmore
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote:
> >Marine SSB radios will only transmit on Marine bands. Some ham radios will
> >transmit on both the ham bands *and* the Marine bands.
> >
> >In other words, you may be well served by getting the HAM license and
> >buying the HAM equipment. You still need the ship's license to transmit on
> >the Marine bands, but you don't need two sets of radios, and you can talk
> >to anybody.
> >
> >Anybody care to converse on the accuracy of that information?
>
> From this I draw the conclusion that since I've just purchased a SSB and don't
> intend to go out and buy HAM equipment that the only possible way to
> communicate with my HAM friends will be if they obtain the proper FCC license
> and their equipment allows them to transmit on marine bands. Correct?
That is correct. Unless you get a ham licence, you may not talk to your ham friends.
A transmitter must be "type certified" for its use. There are several Marine type certified SSBs that also
have ham bands and may legally be used in either service provided the ship is licenced for marine use and
the station and the operator are licenced for HAM.
There are many HAM units that with a simple modification can transmit on marine frequencies but this is not
legal. To transmit on marine frequencies your ham friend must get a land based marine SSB station licence
by demonstrating some public commercial or safety reason and must get a commercial operators license. For
most landlocked hams, it is not worth the hassle and expense.
An example of a private land based marine SSB that we all know is Herb on Southbound II. I assume Herb
still holds court on 12.359 every afternoon and delivers individual weather advice to yachts in the
Atlantic and Caribbean. His service is free. If you contact him with your proposed route he will be ready
every day with advice.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~gashmore
Jordan Bigel
>V." <j...@valesh.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Peter Bennett wrote:
>>
>>> Hams can only operate in the ham bands, and you may only use your marine
>>> radio in the marine bands - there is no frequency where both ham and marine
>>> can both legally be used.
>>
>>This is true, but there is one additional datum that may be relevant... at
>>least if accurate.
>>
>>transmit on both the ham bands *and* the Marine bands.
>>
>>In other words, you may be well served by getting the HAM license and
>>buying the HAM equipment. You still need the ship's license to transmit on
>>the Marine bands, but you don't need two sets of radios, and you can talk
>>to anybody.
>>
>>Anybody care to converse on the accuracy of that information?
>
Geoffrey W. Schultz wrote:
>From this I draw the conclusion that since I've just purchased a SSB and
>don't intend to go out and buy HAM equipment that the only possible way to
>communicate with my HAM friends will be if they obtain the proper FCC
>license and their equipment allows them to transmit on marine bands.
Correct?
>
Depending on which SSB radio you purchased you can possibly
have it "modified" to transmit on ham bands. But you will
need to get your Ham license.
J.
Tony Wright
use on the marine SSB bands. Almost every sailing ham I know uses their ham
radio this way. The modification is easy to do or costs $50 at a ham store.
This is one of those laws followed more in the breach than the observance.
Tony
WB wrote in message ...
>The only reason ham equipment is not allowed on the marine frequencies, is
>its poor specifications. Most ham radios dont have the frequency stability
>requirements or transmitter purity for FCC type acceptance. The only radio
>that is type accepted for both services is the SGC line of radios.
>
jean somerhausen
power to the level you need to be copied. I have sometimes reduced it to
10 watts on my IC 725. BTW, the 725 is quite flexible on voltage and
takes only1 A on RX. It has survived two Atlantic crossings and only
once did I have any trouble when the microphone got doused by spray and
started scanning madly whenever I pushed the PTT button. A good spray
with WD40 and a wipe with a cloth cured that...
john
WB wrote:
>
> Yes your points are valid,, i was just letting those know the reason for the
> legalities in the issue. But certainly fitting the ham radio with the TXCO
> is a good idea and like you say the finals are the same as the ham radios,
> and in most cases the the transceiver boards are the same. I have noticed
> non tinplated wire connections in the IC710. It is certainly a radio that
> would not stand up in a hostile environment. But where can you find a good
> true marine radio.?? In Australia the companies called Kodan and Barret
> produce marine radios that are excellent, they also tolerate lower volatges
> on the batteries befores sounding like darth vader with a sore throat. This
> aspect of lower voltage operation is something most people seem to ignore. I
> also notice that many of the newer ham radios like IC706 and FT100 all
> specify 13.8volts +- 5%, which is a tough call for most yachts seeing that
> 12 volts represents 80% charged. The radio with the highest guarenteed lower
> voltage performance is the SGC ,10.7 volts minimum which is great.
>
> Another aspect of modern SSB radios is the standby current consumption has
> gone though the roof,, for a yacht this is a huge problem. So small Sony or
> Grundig or Lowe HF150 makes a great monitoring receiver. The low current
> consumption is excellent for those worried about the amps.
>
> Steven Shelikoff <shel...@averstar.com> wrote in message
> news:37EA4593...@averstar.com...
> > WB wrote:
> > >
> > > The only reason ham equipment is not allowed on the marine frequencies,
> is
> > > its poor specifications. Most ham radios dont have the frequency
> stability
> > > requirements or transmitter purity for FCC type acceptance. The only
> radio
> >
> > For the most part, that's not true anymore. In many cases, a radio is
> > the same basic unit with slight modifications for different services
> > (ham, marine, etc.) The only reason a ham radio is not allowed on
> > marine frequencies is because it's not type accepted there. It would
> > most likely pass a type acceptance test if the manufacturer would bother
> > to spend the money to get it type accepted.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > --
> > / / /
> > \ \ \ mailto:shel...@averstar.com
> > / / /
WB
its poor specifications. Most ham radios dont have the frequency stability
requirements or transmitter purity for FCC type acceptance. The only radio
Hams can only operate in the ham bands, and likewise marine operators, but
the rules do allow for emergency communications in either band. That only
applies in an emergency. But there is a lot of misinformation propagated
about the Marine radio frequencies,,, they are excellent if people learned
to use them properly and use good antennas. The marine radio license is so
easy to obtain. There is no law that prevents an individual from setting up
the same kind of beam antennas for marine freqeuncies. Hams understand the
propagation of their freqeuncies very well, almost down to the last half
hour. The same can be done on the marine frequencies. people always used to
be amazed when i was in the Pacific, how on 4mhz i was talking into Alaska
regularly ,, but this was just a good antenna and understanding the
propagation. It is futile telling a novice that they must sit in front of
the radio and enjoy it like they are watching TV. If they can do that they
will master HF communications. The average user of SSB radios want SSB
radios to operate like a VHF radio, you just cant overcome this beam me up
scotty mentality. Thats why most yachts dont have SSB radios. Its like most
things in life thats a art, some people have the persistance and patience to
master a art, some just dont. Without pain there is no gain etc etc etc we
all know the story of life. Good useage of HF radio is a art.
The decline of of SSB useage is not surprising, everyones expectations was
lying with the LEO satellites, thats a failure now, and now with the
automation of HF radio services we will see a further decline. The vast
majority will have to wait for some sort of sattelite service, a minority
will use HF SSB and ham radio.
I personally dont care, since i have a ham license and will always use that
in an emergency,, i have visited numerous coastal radio stations, and have
sat alongside these operators while they were doing there job,, and i can
tell you if you signal is not strong they wont bother with you, most now are
civilians with no radio background. I know if i am stuck in an emergency in
some remote place,, if i go onto 20 meters and my signal is S3 or 4 and i
call mayday there are people with the equipment and skills to hear me. That
is not the case now on commercial SSB. yes i know there is a epirb, but not
always do you want rescue,, pirates, medical etc all warrant SSB not a epirb
mayday..
Anyway just my opinion
Geoffrey W. Schultz <schultz@@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:7sa2pq$7k1$1...@winter.news.rcn.net...
> In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.990921...@slinky.snni.com>,
"Jon V." <j...@valesh.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Peter Bennett wrote:
> >
> >> Hams can only operate in the ham bands, and you may only use your
marine
> >> radio in the marine bands - there is no frequency where both ham and
marine
> >> can both legally be used.
> >
> >This is true, but there is one additional datum that may be relevant...
at
> >least if accurate.
> >
> >Marine SSB radios will only transmit on Marine bands. Some ham radios
will
> >transmit on both the ham bands *and* the Marine bands.
> >
> >In other words, you may be well served by getting the HAM license and
> >buying the HAM equipment. You still need the ship's license to transmit
on
> >the Marine bands, but you don't need two sets of radios, and you can talk
> >to anybody.
> >
> >Anybody care to converse on the accuracy of that information?
>
> From this I draw the conclusion that since I've just purchased a SSB and
don't
> intend to go out and buy HAM equipment that the only possible way to
> communicate with my HAM friends will be if they obtain the proper FCC
license
> and their equipment allows them to transmit on marine bands. Correct?
>
>
> Geoff Schultz
>
WB
know that, but its not type accepted by the authorities. The only radio that
has been certified for both hamd and marine band use is the SGC radios. So
purchasing that radio and getting a ham license then you legal totally.
Jordan Bigel <jbi...@BIX.com> wrote in message
news:7sb69b$a...@lotho.delphi.com...
WB
splatter in other words, you might be on an adjacent channel in an emergency
adn you could be hauled over the coals for casing malicious inteerference,,
ham equipment is exemps from these requirements,, you allowed to splatter
and cause as much havoc in the ham bands with poor equipment, not so in the
marine bands.
Anyway i do what you say use my ham radio for both services. But i can tell
you just from listening 9 times out of 10 someone calls in on the marine
bands and they off frequency they using a ham radio. The high stability
option spec is standard on marine radios, you will rarely find one off
frequency. Anyway if you do use a ham radio get the high stability option,
it makes good sense.
Tony Wright <to...@wright-photo.com> wrote in message
news:OIbG3.18302$UL5.2...@quark.idirect.com...
> No ham should be put off by the fact that ham radios are not approved for
> use on the marine SSB bands. Almost every sailing ham I know uses their
ham
> radio this way. The modification is easy to do or costs $50 at a ham
store.
> This is one of those laws followed more in the breach than the observance.
> Tony
>
> WB wrote in message ...
Bruce & Debora Gordon
nospam@micro$haft.com (Larry KN4IM) writes:
> You need to put in for a SHORE station license, the kind marinas
> have. You must demonstrate that you provide a valuable service to the
> maritime PUBLIC, not just yourself. No, you cannot put one at home
> just so you can talk to the wife from the boat.....nope.
The above statement is not quite accurate in its content. The Limited
Coast License is available to commercial interests for communications
to and from shore to commerical vessels. There are a number of
catagories of interests that can qualify for inclusion in eligability
for a Limited Coast Station License. Fishing, Towing, Salvage, diving,
any type of Maritime Maintainance, or Manufacture of Maritime
Products. It doesn't take much to justify a license under the
commercial use rules. We have many "bedroom basestations" in the
commercial fishing industry that only communicate with one vessel, and
many more in the towing industry that do the same. (similar to Gypsy
Truckers) You just need to know how to fill out the forms and what the
right "Buzz Words" are to use in the Eligability question. Been
helping folks do that for 25 years.
Bruce (semiretired powderman & exFCC Field Inspector for Southeastern
Alaska)
Bruce Gordon * Debora Gordon R.N. Bruce's Trading Post
P.O. Box EXI Excursion Inlet South
Juneau, Alaska 99850 Excursion Inlet, Alaska 99850
University of Alaska Remote Weather Data Collection Site
fn...@aurora.alaska.edu WDT-59 KWO-70 KNEG-586
wcov...@ptialaska.net Wards Cove Packing Co.
btp...@eagle.ptialaska.net AL7AQ@KL7HFI * KL7WJ@KL7HFI
**** Have bandwidth and connection Will communicate ****
Steven Shelikoff
>
> The only reason ham equipment is not allowed on the marine frequencies, is
> its poor specifications. Most ham radios dont have the frequency stability
> requirements or transmitter purity for FCC type acceptance. The only radio
For the most part, that's not true anymore. In many cases, a radio is
Steven Shelikoff
>
> Yes your points are valid,, i was just letting those know the reason for the
> legalities in the issue. But certainly fitting the ham radio with the TXCO
> is a good idea and like you say the finals are the same as the ham radios,
> and in most cases the the transceiver boards are the same. I have noticed
> non tinplated wire connections in the IC710. It is certainly a radio that
> would not stand up in a hostile environment. But where can you find a good
> true marine radio.?? In Australia the companies called Kodan and Barret
I doubt that most radios type accepted for marine bands have the
necessary ruggedness to stand up to a marine environment. I think the
best we can do is to mount them in a protected enclosure.
> produce marine radios that are excellent, they also tolerate lower volatges
> on the batteries befores sounding like darth vader with a sore throat. This
> aspect of lower voltage operation is something most people seem to ignore. I
> also notice that many of the newer ham radios like IC706 and FT100 all
> specify 13.8volts +- 5%, which is a tough call for most yachts seeing that
> 12 volts represents 80% charged. The radio with the highest guarenteed lower
> voltage performance is the SGC ,10.7 volts minimum which is great.
And most yachts only charge to 80% while cruising to save engine run
time. The current consumption while transmitting with a high power SSB
radio would lead me to start the engine before starting a conversation.
> Another aspect of modern SSB radios is the standby current consumption has
> gone though the roof,, for a yacht this is a huge problem. So small Sony or
> Grundig or Lowe HF150 makes a great monitoring receiver. The low current
> consumption is excellent for those worried about the amps.
That's a good idea. Monitor with a low powered receiver and then if you
want to talk for any length of time and the voltage is suspect, start
the engine before using the transceiver.
As a side note, you wouldn't have to worry as much about meeting the
voltage spec if you run an inverter that can work off of 10 volts and
still put out AC voltage that the transceiver can use. Most tranceivers
are very lenient on the AC voltage specs, and can work well with less
than even 100 volts.
Jack /CAST-AWAYS
>
> The only reason ham equipment is not allowed on the marine frequencies, is
> its poor specifications. Most ham radios dont have the frequency stability
> requirements or transmitter purity for FCC type acceptance. The only radio
Not true George. Try the Icom M700, M700pro, M710(2). All type
excepted and will operate both ways.
<<<big snip>>
>
> The decline of of SSB useage is not surprising, everyones expectations was
> lying with the LEO satellites,<<<snip>>> a minority
> will use HF SSB and ham radio.
Again, nopt true, SSB usage is on the increase due to the availability
of e-mail access to cruisers, and the decrease in cost of quality
equipment. The minority are folks heading out -without- SSB on board.
> Anyway just my opinion
>
> Geoffrey W. Schultz
Jack
--
CAST-AWAYS
Used Sail Loft and Marine Surplus
http://www.CAST-AWAYS.com
916-487-1481
Jack /CAST-AWAYS
> have it "modified" to transmit on ham bands. But you will
> need to get your Ham license.
>
> J.
There are more and more marine SSB radios becoming available that will
transmit on Ham freqs. When using or owning one you do not need a Ham
license unless using it as a Ham Radio. Only a SSB ships station's
license is needed. During emergencies you may transmit on all bands
available.
When modifying an older SSB to transmit on HAM freqs., the radio loses
it's type acceptance rating and actually becomes technically illegal to
operate on the SSB freqs. So in essence it's like catch 22. It's
elligal to operate on SSB freqs., and illegal to operate on HAM freqs
unless you -do- have a HAM ticket. Although, not having heard one
transmitting, I can't say whether it could be detected by performance or
not.
The most common direction cruisers go in is to buy a HAM radio and
modify it to transmit on SSB Freqs. Generally cruisers transmitting on
a mod'd HAM rig are off freqency and easily detectable. But when
operating off shore in foriegn waters under a temporary HAM permit
issued by that country and doing most of the transmitting on HAM freqs.,
who cares? Most cruiser nets that exist are HAM based anyway.
Jack /CAST-AWAYS
>
> Its iilegal t use ham equipment on the marine bands, yes it works we all
> know that, but its not type accepted by the authorities. The only radio that
> has been certified for both hamd and marine band use is the SGC radios. So
> purchasing that radio and getting a ham license then you legal totally.
>
> Jordan Bigel <jbi...@BIX.com> wrote in message
Again, you need to get out and shop around a little. SGC is -not- the
only radio on the market that is open to both HAM and SSB.
jean somerhausen
your fly open all the time either, only when you need to...). The
antenna is the boat backstay with insulators and an SGC 230. Mostly used
the 7, 14 and 21 MHz bands plus 12.359. Change the ground strap and
antenna cable (RG213 with the braid out) from the SGC every year.
john
WB wrote:
>
> well 1 amp is 24 amps a day, thats a lot of amps for the average small
> cruiser. I like leaving the receiver running for shortwave or ham radio use.
> It kills time,, i have a Lowe HF 150 that draws milliamps so can leave it
> running all day long. You have good results what antenna are you using and
> what bands are you using just curious.
>
> jean somerhausen <diplo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:37E96B...@worldnet.att.net...
> > One of the advantages of ham radio is that you can reduce your ouput
> > power to the level you need to be copied. I have sometimes reduced it to
> > 10 watts on my IC 725. BTW, the 725 is quite flexible on voltage and
> > takes only1 A on RX. It has survived two Atlantic crossings and only
> > once did I have any trouble when the microphone got doused by spray and
> > started scanning madly whenever I pushed the PTT button. A good spray
> > with WD40 and a wipe with a cloth cured that...
> > john
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Yes your points are valid,, i was just letting those know the reason for
> the
> > > legalities in the issue. But certainly fitting the ham radio with the
> TXCO
> > > is a good idea and like you say the finals are the same as the ham
> radios,
> > > and in most cases the the transceiver boards are the same. I have
> noticed
> > > non tinplated wire connections in the IC710. It is certainly a radio
> that
> > > would not stand up in a hostile environment. But where can you find a
> good
> > > true marine radio.?? In Australia the companies called Kodan and Barret
> volatges
> > > on the batteries befores sounding like darth vader with a sore throat.
> This
> > > aspect of lower voltage operation is something most people seem to
> ignore. I
> > > also notice that many of the newer ham radios like IC706 and FT100 all
> > > specify 13.8volts +- 5%, which is a tough call for most yachts seeing
> that
> > > 12 volts represents 80% charged. The radio with the highest guarenteed
> lower
> > > voltage performance is the SGC ,10.7 volts minimum which is great.
> > >
> has
> > > gone though the roof,, for a yacht this is a huge problem. So small Sony
> or
> > > Grundig or Lowe HF150 makes a great monitoring receiver. The low current
> > > consumption is excellent for those worried about the amps.
> > >
> > > news:37EA4593...@averstar.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > The only reason ham equipment is not allowed on the marine
> frequencies,
> > > is
> > > > > its poor specifications. Most ham radios dont have the frequency
> > > stability
> > > > > requirements or transmitter purity for FCC type acceptance. The only
> > > radio
> > > >
> > > > the same basic unit with slight modifications for different services
> > > > (ham, marine, etc.) The only reason a ham radio is not allowed on
> > > > marine frequencies is because it's not type accepted there. It would
> > > > most likely pass a type acceptance test if the manufacturer would
> bother
> > > > to spend the money to get it type accepted.
> > > >
WB
WB
that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there radios
approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
submiited for Marine radio use only. A ham can use anything on the ham bands
so this is a moot point, i doubt if anyone will get pulled up for using a
IC710 for not beeing type approved. I think you confusing type acceptance
with the ability to transmit on all frequencies. All marine and ham radio
are capable of transmitting everywhere. Most marine radios dont transmit
below 27, mhz, but som like the icom can be released from this.
Again i will repeat what i said SGC has submitted there radios for both Ham
Type approval and Marine band type approval. Again it does not matter on the
ham type approval. Icom has not been type approved for ham radio use, again
a moot point.
Jack /CAST-AWAYS <j...@cast-aways.com> wrote in message
news:37EA54...@cast-aways.com...
WB
cruiser. I like leaving the receiver running for shortwave or ham radio use.
It kills time,, i have a Lowe HF 150 that draws milliamps so can leave it
running all day long. You have good results what antenna are you using and
what bands are you using just curious.
jean somerhausen <diplo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37E96B...@worldnet.att.net...
> One of the advantages of ham radio is that you can reduce your ouput
> power to the level you need to be copied. I have sometimes reduced it to
> 10 watts on my IC 725. BTW, the 725 is quite flexible on voltage and
> takes only1 A on RX. It has survived two Atlantic crossings and only
> once did I have any trouble when the microphone got doused by spray and
> started scanning madly whenever I pushed the PTT button. A good spray
> with WD40 and a wipe with a cloth cured that...
> john
>
>
> WB wrote:
> >
WB
it has loss that amounts to more current consumption in standbye than radio
would use. There are radios that will withstand fly bridge mounting, i
mention the two Australian companies that make these radios to take water.
HF radio in Australia is used like most people use mobile telephones in
other parts of the world. In some areas the school system is run on HF
radio. You will see numerous fishing boats with open cockpits that have
Koden and Barret HF radio equipment mounted in the open with salt crust on
them. The Icom 710 and most Japanese radios are not up to this standard.
SGCs radio us capable of this.
I have a large battery bank and transmitting on sideband without the engine
is no problem. I have a dedicate antenna matching units, i have found that
auto ATUs are very inefficient,, i can do what most people do with 150 watts
i can do with 20 watts based soley on the better matching efficiency.
Stainless rigging wire has a very high resistance so contributes to
producing an antenna as low as 1% efficiency on 2 mhz. I use bronze ship
antenna wire and it works very well. Anyway i think there is a big differenc
between an average yachtie who buys HF radio just to have a tick on his
offshore list, and one who uses it seriously as a tool.
Its a matter of priorities and dedication!!
Steven Shelikoff <shel...@averstar.com> wrote in message
news:37EA5C1A...@averstar.com...
> WB wrote:
> >
> > Yes your points are valid,, i was just letting those know the reason for
the
> > legalities in the issue. But certainly fitting the ham radio with the
TXCO
> > is a good idea and like you say the finals are the same as the ham
radios,
> > and in most cases the the transceiver boards are the same. I have
noticed
> > non tinplated wire connections in the IC710. It is certainly a radio
that
> > would not stand up in a hostile environment. But where can you find a
good
> > true marine radio.?? In Australia the companies called Kodan and Barret
>
> I doubt that most radios type accepted for marine bands have the
> necessary ruggedness to stand up to a marine environment. I think the
> best we can do is to mount them in a protected enclosure.
>
> > produce marine radios that are excellent, they also tolerate lower
volatges
> > on the batteries befores sounding like darth vader with a sore throat.
This
> > aspect of lower voltage operation is something most people seem to
ignore. I
> > also notice that many of the newer ham radios like IC706 and FT100 all
> > specify 13.8volts +- 5%, which is a tough call for most yachts seeing
that
> > 12 volts represents 80% charged. The radio with the highest guarenteed
lower
> > voltage performance is the SGC ,10.7 volts minimum which is great.
>
> And most yachts only charge to 80% while cruising to save engine run
> time. The current consumption while transmitting with a high power SSB
> radio would lead me to start the engine before starting a conversation.
>
> > Another aspect of modern SSB radios is the standby current consumption
has
> > gone though the roof,, for a yacht this is a huge problem. So small Sony
or
> > Grundig or Lowe HF150 makes a great monitoring receiver. The low current
> > consumption is excellent for those worried about the amps.
>
> That's a good idea. Monitor with a low powered receiver and then if you
> want to talk for any length of time and the voltage is suspect, start
> the engine before using the transceiver.
>
> As a side note, you wouldn't have to worry as much about meeting the
> voltage spec if you run an inverter that can work off of 10 volts and
> still put out AC voltage that the transceiver can use. Most tranceivers
> are very lenient on the AC voltage specs, and can work well with less
> than even 100 volts.
>
Steven Shelikoff
>
> i cant see the inverter beeing an efficient means of power conversion since
> it has loss that amounts to more current consumption in standbye than radio
> would use. There are radios that will withstand fly bridge mounting, i
I don't think it's as efficient either. I mention an inverter not to
run the radio off of continously but to use for the transceiver when you
want to talk (after using the low powered receiver for monitoring) and
your batteries are below the DC power spec for the transceiver (which is
easy to do when the power spec bottoms out at 12v) and you don't want to
start the engine.
Steven Shelikoff
>
> i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal definition,,
> that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there radios
> approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
> submiited for Marine radio use only. A ham can use anything on the ham bands
> so this is a moot point, i doubt if anyone will get pulled up for using a
> IC710 for not beeing type approved. I think you confusing type acceptance
True, a ham can use a homebrew set on the ham bands. But commercial
gear is type accepted. The odds of getting into trouble for not using
type accepted commercial gear are probably about the same for ham bands
and marine bands.
Capt. Neal®
rambling on about SSB and HAM radios which are both
notorious power hogs, especially when transmitting, and one
of them has the nerve to suggest that using an inverter is
not a good idea because it has less than 100% efficiency.
My, oh my!
What a total non-thinker you represent WB! If you were
really concerned about conserving power, you would not even
be carrying a waste of space and energy HAM or SSB in the
first place. And what are they for? They exist so fools can
be heard all over the world as if we don't get way too much
of them in person.
Ham and SSB radios have no place on a sailing yacht. If you
insist of polluting the airways with your nonsense why not
stay home with your ear glued to a cellular phone?
There is only one endeavor in which humans have no equal.
That is the constant chatter they produce. Even monkeys
cannot hold a candle to them.
Respectfully,
Capt. Neal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WB wrote in message ...
>i cant see the inverter beeing an efficient means of power
conversion since
>it has loss that amounts to more current consumption in
standbye than radio
>would use. There are radios that will withstand fly bridge
mounting, i
ted...@socrates.berkeley.edu
-TC
In article <gKPG3.16805$d71.5...@news4.giganews.com> widely
Geoff Blake
This side of the pond, commercial amateur equipment does not require to be
"type approved". However, an Icom M710 or any other item modified to include
amateur band coverage is likely to be outside its type approval.
BTW, again this side of the pond, the operator has to pass an exam for
marine radio operation (or to be actively supervised by an licenced
operator), even for VHF.
Geoff
--
Geoff Blake geoff (at) palaemon . demon . co . uk linux 2.0.36
Chelmsford g8gnz @ g8gnz . ampr . org sparc - i586
Please, only use the .ampr.org address if you know what you are doing
Intel create faster processors - Microsoft create slower processes
Steven Shelikoff
>
> Steven Shelikoff (shel...@averstar.com) wrote:
> : WB wrote:
> : >
> : > i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal definition,,
> : > that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there radios
> : > approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
> : > submiited for Marine radio use only. A ham can use anything on the ham bands
> : > so this is a moot point, i doubt if anyone will get pulled up for using a
> : > IC710 for not beeing type approved. I think you confusing type acceptance
>
> : True, a ham can use a homebrew set on the ham bands. But commercial
> : gear is type accepted. The odds of getting into trouble for not using
> : type accepted commercial gear are probably about the same for ham bands
> : and marine bands.
>
> This side of the pond, commercial amateur equipment does not require to be
> "type approved". However, an Icom M710 or any other item modified to include
> amateur band coverage is likely to be outside its type approval.
>
> BTW, again this side of the pond, the operator has to pass an exam for
> marine radio operation (or to be actively supervised by an licenced
> operator), even for VHF.
Learn something new everyday. So when do you think they will do away
with the exam for VHF? How hard is it, relative to the various ham
exams?
Jack /CAST-AWAYS
>
> i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal definition,,
> that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there radios
> approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
> submiited for Marine radio use only.
I'm not sure what you're trying to justify here. The only type
acceptance required is on the Marine SSB. Ham radios don't need it.
Ergo, if it qualifies as a marine SSB, it will qualify as a HAM rig if
it is open to HAM freqs. SGC is using it as advertising hype to let
folks know that it has dule modes. And no, not all marine SSB's are open
to transmission on HAM freqs. Some are not even modifiable to do so.
And as I pointed out in a previous post, modifying it would cause the
marine SSB radio to loose it's 'type exceptance' rating and be illegal
to use as a marine SSB. So, you can hang your hat on SGC all you want.
I personally will use equipment that has a better reputation in the
after market support area.
jean somerhausen
> generally nonsense. Almost all modern ham radios are well in spec. I have
> a good ICOM which is vastly better than the SSB spec.
>
I have my doubts about that: Gordon West, in an article some time ago,
pointed out thatthe stability of the average ham TX is about 300 Hz
whilst that of an SSB marine TX is about 50 Hz. Most ham radio
manufacturers sell a "high stability crystal" as an optional item which
is probably standard on a marine SSB set.
john
> There is no such thing as type acceptance on a Ham radio. They do however
> require FCC approval, as does any electronic communication device, for
> non-performance related specs. There is no significant difference in the
> approval status of the SGC and ICOM radios.
>
> > 2. Does the operator of a Marine SSB station have to be "floating" on a
> boat?
> > Is there anything required to operate a Marine SSB radio from land? (ie,
> from
> > your home during the off season)
>
> It is clear that a seperate license is required to operate from land. It is
> more restricted in availability but is not impossible to get.
>
> > 3. What are the requirements of owning and operating a Marine SSB radio?
>
> > Actually you need two licenses -
>
> A ship radio license. File form 506 and 159 with a payment of $115.
>
> A restricted radiotelephone operators permit. File form 753 (if eligible to
> work in US if not 755) and 159 with a payment of $45.00.
>
> I think you can file only one 159 for both applications but I do not have
> one handy to see.
>
> There will probably be some argument about the restricted operators permit.
> However let me quote Form 1070R which covers fees and applicability
>
> " WHO NEEDS AN RP?
> At least one person holding an RP is required aboard stations in the
> maritime and aviartion services when:
> 1) making international flights, voyages, or communications
> 2) using frequencies under 30 Mhz
> 3) using a satellite ship earth stqation, and
> 4) operating a vessel subject to the Bridge to Bridge Act (including
> domestic operations)"
>
> I think the under 30Mhz requires the RP.
>
> >
> > I am an Amateur Radio Operator and have been listening to several Marine
> SSB
> > frequencies. I also own a sailboat and am interested in communications
> with
> > other boaters via Marine SSB
> <snip>
>
> Ain't worth the trouble. There is considerable marine activity on the ham
> bands. The Maritime Mobile net for instance is on all afternoon and evening
> in the east on 14.300. It is followed by the Pacific Seafarers net at
> 14.313 (10pm est?). I think most all marine to shore tends to be Ham rather
> than SSB. There are however some fine maritime nets on SSB.
>
> Jim
Jordan Bigel
>
>What a total non-thinker you represent WB! If you were
>really concerned about conserving power, you would not even
>be carrying a waste of space and energy HAM or SSB in the
>first place. And what are they for? They exist so fools can
>be heard all over the world as if we don't get way too much
>of them in person.
>
>Ham and SSB radios have no place on a sailing yacht. If you
>insist of polluting the airways with your nonsense why not
>stay home with your ear glued to a cellular phone?
You're just whining because you failed the code test so many times.
J.
PS. Who let this monkey out of his cage anyway?
Joe DB
>i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal definition,,
>that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there radios
>approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
>submiited for Marine radio use only. A ham can use anything on the ham bands
>so this is a moot point, i doubt if anyone will get pulled up for using a
>IC710 for not beeing type approved. I think you confusing type acceptance
>with the ability to transmit on all frequencies. All marine and ham radio
>are capable of transmitting everywhere. Most marine radios dont transmit
>below 27, mhz, but som like the icom can be released from this.
>
>Again i will repeat what i said SGC has submitted there radios for both Ham
>Type approval and Marine band type approval. Again it does not matter on the
>ham type approval. Icom has not been type approved for ham radio use, again
>a moot point.
>
>
>
>Jack /CAST-AWAYS <j...@cast-aways.com> wrote in message
>news:37EA54...@cast-aways.com...
>> WB wrote:
>> >
>> > Its iilegal t use ham equipment on the marine bands, yes it works we all
>> > know that, but its not type accepted by the authorities. The only radio
>that
>> > has been certified for both hamd and marine band use is the SGC radios.
>So
>> > purchasing that radio and getting a ham license then you legal totally.
>> >
>> > Jordan Bigel <jbi...@BIX.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> Again, you need to get out and shop around a little. SGC is -not- the
>> only radio on the market that is open to both HAM and SSB.
>>
>> Jack
>> --
>>
>> CAST-AWAYS
>> Used Sail Loft and Marine Surplus
>> http://www.CAST-AWAYS.com
>> 916-487-1481
>
>
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HAM TYPE APPROVAL!
Joe ex SGC and ICOM dealer. BTW there is still nothing that compares
to the old ICOM M700 48 channel radio as far as a rugged and easy to
use unit.
Geoff Blake
: Geoff Blake wrote:
: > BTW, again this side of the pond, the operator has to pass an exam for
: > marine radio operation (or to be actively supervised by an licenced
: > operator), even for VHF.
: Learn something new everyday. So when do you think they will do away
: with the exam for VHF? How hard is it, relative to the various ham
: exams?
I doubt that the authorities (I believe that it is the Radiocommunications
Agency, similar to your FCC) will do away with the exam for the Short Range
Certificate as it instils some competence in the users. The exam is a purely
operational thing, i.e. know relevant channel useage (which is different
from "over there"), phonetic alphabet and how (but not when) to make a
distress call etc. It has been complicated by the advent of GMDSS which
requires an upgrade course and exam (to know how, not when, to push the red
button!)
The Long Range certificate (SSB etc.) is rather more complex and recognises
the the potentially world wide effects(?) of a stuck PTT.
Brian Grant
>
> Capt. Neal® <Capt...@Bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:gKPG3.16805$d71.5...@news4.giganews.com...
<< snip >>
> >
> > What a total non-thinker you represent WB! If you were
> > really concerned about conserving power, you would not even
> > be carrying a waste of space and energy HAM or SSB in the
> > first place. And what are they for? They exist so fools can
> > be heard all over the world as if we don't get way too much
> > of them in person.
> >
And, on usenet
Frodo
<will...@yahoo.com> wrote, referring to Capt. Neal:
> What a professional idiot.
What! I can't believe you're not impressed with the Organization header
he uses:
Organization: Overqualified for Mensa
:-)
--
fb
Joe DB
>I think you better check your facts before blabbering about type approval,,
>all manufactured equipment is submited to the FCC for type approval. Any
>piece of communications equipment must be type approved before beeing sold.
>As for that old piece of crap from Icom i dont how you can say that, you
>must be a CB operator who only knows the meaning of a channel switch.
>
>
You are a complete blithering idiot. Go away.
That being said, if anyone ELSE is reading this and wants to know why
I say what I do, I am a licensed ham operator, I have run a marine
electronics shop, I have installed and used SEA, ICOM, Kenwood, and
SGC SSB equipment, and have run the SSB comms for the Bermuda Ocean
Race since 1994. The old Icom is in demand still because it does the
job better than most and is nearly indestructable. I know this because
I used to track them down for customers who demanded nothing else.
Another great rig, if anyone can find it, is the Kenwood TKM 707
marine SSB it is my alltime favorite SSB. BTW SGC has some well known
quaility control issues.
Joe - Kenwwod TS440 and SGC 230
Jim Donohue
> My questions are;
>
> 1. What must one do to transmit on Marine SSB frequencies?
Have a suitable radio and the required licenses. Ham radios are not legal
on SSB frequencies though they often are used there. SSB radios often have
Ham frequencies available. (Editorial - Many do not work well. On maritime
nets it is necessary to make special accomodations for SSB Hams as they
cannot tune easily over a frequency range.)
The technical arguments about the ham radios not being on frequency are
generally nonsense. Almost all modern ham radios are well in spec. I have
a good ICOM which is vastly better than the SSB spec.
There is no such thing as type acceptance on a Ham radio. They do however
Geoff Blake
: Geoff Blake <ge...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
: news:FIKy2...@nospam.demon.co.uk...
: > Steven Shelikoff (shel...@averstar.com) wrote:
: > : WB wrote:
: > : >
: > : > i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal
: definition,,
: > : > that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there
: radios
: > : > approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
: > : > submiited for Marine radio use only. A ham can use anything on the ham
: bands
: > : > so this is a moot point, i doubt if anyone will get pulled up for
: using a
: > : > IC710 for not beeing type approved. I think you confusing type
: acceptance
: >
: > : True, a ham can use a homebrew set on the ham bands. But commercial
: > : gear is type accepted. The odds of getting into trouble for not using
: > : type accepted commercial gear are probably about the same for ham bands
: > : and marine bands.
: >
: > This side of the pond, commercial amateur equipment does not require to be
: > "type approved". However, an Icom M710 or any other item modified to
: include
: > amateur band coverage is likely to be outside its type approval.
: >
: > BTW, again this side of the pond, the operator has to pass an exam for
: > marine radio operation (or to be actively supervised by an licenced
: > operator), even for VHF.
: >
: I think you better check you facts again with type approval CE certification
: is more rigid than type approval,, you will have a lot of difficulty
: importing older Ham radio equipment or any new marine equipment into the UK
: without the CE stamp. Again please check Europes laws are tighter than most
: of the world.
: Ham radio equipment is not excempt from meeting minimum standards, you fill
: find that these standards are clearly defined and must meet the minimums. In
: Australia ham radio is excempt from many common standards since the assume
: the people are aware and capable of dealing with the problems the arise from
: non approval. But even in australia the equipment must meet harmonic and
: spurious transmission standards which most ham equipment meet.
: Anyway its complex beauracratic nightmare,, that nobody needs,, alas we must
: live with it.
Having sorted out WB's quoting:
Do not confuse CE marking with type approval - they are two entirely
separate games administered by different bodies. CE marking is not
restricted to radio equipment, I believe that even Beanies are CE marked.
Yes, of course amateur radio equipment has to meet certain standards, but
these (in the UK at least) are advisory. No self respecting manufacturer
would exceed these limits, but no approval is required or granted. There are
certain restrictions in force, like no single band equipment in the 27-30
MHz range, but this was a knee-jerk reaction to the illegal importation
of AM/SSB CB equipment.
One further comment. In the UK, foreign licenced vessels radio equipment is
accepted if approved for use in that country. I don't know what would happen
if a port official found ham equipment used for marine band operation, it
could be confiscated. I believe this is why the US of A issue licences for
foreign going vessels.
jean somerhausen
yes, with what results ?
john
Larry KN4IM wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:49:25 -0700, jean somerhausen
> <diplo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >The technical arguments about the ham radios not being on frequency are
> >> generally nonsense. Almost all modern ham radios are well in spec. I have
> >> a good ICOM which is vastly better than the SSB spec.
> >>
> >I have my doubts about that: Gordon West, in an article some time ago,
> >pointed out thatthe stability of the average ham TX is about 300 Hz
> >whilst that of an SSB marine TX is about 50 Hz. Most ham radio
> >manufacturers sell a "high stability crystal" as an optional item which
> >is probably standard on a marine SSB set.
> >john
> >
> With the addition of the high stability TCXO master oscillator to my
> Yaesu FT-900 and FT-990, I can easily hold WWV's carrier beatnote to
> within 0.5 Hz for months. It is also very easy to reset it to perfect
> frequency by inserting a tuning wand into the hole in the case.
>
> I warned one of my local AM broadcasters his signal was about 8Hz out
> of tolerance (low) with the FT-990AC. I told him to check it then
> call me back to see if I was right. I was....he was 8.52 Hz out of
> his 20 Hz tolerance....
>
> Larry
WB
follwoing every post my response is the same as yours, but i just clarified
a earlier post., i am not fan of SGC, nor am i promoting their stuff. I was
just beeing picky of some people who dont understand the technical issues of
type accceptance , the whole thing is silly and a waste of time and money
what can you expect from the government. I use a ham radio for both
services, and am very happy. But someone took this thread here about type
accpetance, i was clarifying the issues as they stand currently.
Jack /CAST-AWAYS <j...@cast-aways.com> wrote in message
news:37EBF8...@cast-aways.com...
> WB wrote:
> >
> > i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal
definition,,
> > that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there radios
> > approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
> > submiited for Marine radio use only.
>
> I'm not sure what you're trying to justify here. The only type
> acceptance required is on the Marine SSB. Ham radios don't need it.
> Ergo, if it qualifies as a marine SSB, it will qualify as a HAM rig if
> it is open to HAM freqs. SGC is using it as advertising hype to let
> folks know that it has dule modes. And no, not all marine SSB's are open
> to transmission on HAM freqs. Some are not even modifiable to do so.
> And as I pointed out in a previous post, modifying it would cause the
> marine SSB radio to loose it's 'type exceptance' rating and be illegal
> to use as a marine SSB. So, you can hang your hat on SGC all you want.
> I personally will use equipment that has a better reputation in the
> after market support area.
>
WB
all manufactured equipment is submited to the FCC for type approval. Any
piece of communications equipment must be type approved before beeing sold.
As for that old piece of crap from Icom i dont how you can say that, you
must be a CB operator who only knows the meaning of a channel switch.
Joe DB <jo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37ec33ef....@news.earthlink.net...
> On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:09:55 +1000, "WB" <will...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal
definition,,
> >that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there radios
> >approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
> >submiited for Marine radio use only. A ham can use anything on the ham
bands
> >so this is a moot point, i doubt if anyone will get pulled up for using a
> >IC710 for not beeing type approved. I think you confusing type acceptance
> >with the ability to transmit on all frequencies. All marine and ham radio
> >are capable of transmitting everywhere. Most marine radios dont transmit
> >below 27, mhz, but som like the icom can be released from this.
> >
> >Again i will repeat what i said SGC has submitted there radios for both
Ham
> >Type approval and Marine band type approval. Again it does not matter on
the
> >ham type approval. Icom has not been type approved for ham radio use,
again
> >a moot point.
> >
> >
> >
> >Jack /CAST-AWAYS <j...@cast-aways.com> wrote in message
> >news:37EA54...@cast-aways.com...
> >> WB wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Its iilegal t use ham equipment on the marine bands, yes it works we
all
> >> > know that, but its not type accepted by the authorities. The only
radio
> >that
> >> > has been certified for both hamd and marine band use is the SGC
radios.
> >So
> >> > purchasing that radio and getting a ham license then you legal
totally.
> >> >
> >> > Jordan Bigel <jbi...@BIX.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >>
> >> Again, you need to get out and shop around a little. SGC is -not- the
> >> only radio on the market that is open to both HAM and SSB.
> >>
> >> Jack
> >> --
> >>
> >> CAST-AWAYS
> >> Used Sail Loft and Marine Surplus
> >> http://www.CAST-AWAYS.com
> >> 916-487-1481
> >
> >
WB
As for the inverter again if you read i correctly rebuffed this statement,,
i was not the one who suggested this piece of genius. But your shoddy
attitude is typical,, mouthing off before thinking and reading.
Power consumption of Ham radios,,, i think you better check you set of all
singing and dancing instruments including depth sounders etc , they consume
as much current on standbye as the Ham radio. You also missed the point i
made about power consumption earlier, and that is why a i use a small
portable SSB receiver. You obviously have a deep seated mental problem
existing with the human race, as well as beeing technophobic. You clearly
display you ignorance about what ham radio is,, and jealous of the people
who have a license. How you became a Captain is beyond me,, probably a bar
room yahoo captain with a jetski..
Capt. Neal® <Capt...@Bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:gKPG3.16805$d71.5...@news4.giganews.com...
> Now, doesn't that beat all? Hear we have a couple of fools
> rambling on about SSB and HAM radios which are both
> notorious power hogs, especially when transmitting, and one
> of them has the nerve to suggest that using an inverter is
> not a good idea because it has less than 100% efficiency.
> My, oh my!
>
> What a total non-thinker you represent WB! If you were
> really concerned about conserving power, you would not even
> be carrying a waste of space and energy HAM or SSB in the
> first place. And what are they for? They exist so fools can
> be heard all over the world as if we don't get way too much
> of them in person.
>
> Ham and SSB radios have no place on a sailing yacht. If you
> insist of polluting the airways with your nonsense why not
> stay home with your ear glued to a cellular phone?
>
> There is only one endeavor in which humans have no equal.
> That is the constant chatter they produce. Even monkeys
> cannot hold a candle to them.
>
> Respectfully,
> Capt. Neal
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
WB
is more rigid than type approval,, you will have a lot of difficulty
importing older Ham radio equipment or any new marine equipment into the UK
without the CE stamp. Again please check Europes laws are tighter than most
of the world.
Ham radio equipment is not excempt from meeting minimum standards, you fill
find that these standards are clearly defined and must meet the minimums. In
Australia ham radio is excempt from many common standards since the assume
the people are aware and capable of dealing with the problems the arise from
non approval. But even in australia the equipment must meet harmonic and
spurious transmission standards which most ham equipment meet.
Anyway its complex beauracratic nightmare,, that nobody needs,, alas we must
live with it.
Geoff Blake <ge...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FIKy2...@nospam.demon.co.uk...
> Steven Shelikoff (shel...@averstar.com) wrote:
> : WB wrote:
> : >
> : > i think you better check, again, if you stick to the true legal
definition,,
> : > that is SGC is the only company that has submiited and have there
radios
> : > approved for both Ham radio and marine radio use. Icom radio has been
> : > submiited for Marine radio use only. A ham can use anything on the ham
bands
> : > so this is a moot point, i doubt if anyone will get pulled up for
using a
> : > IC710 for not beeing type approved. I think you confusing type
acceptance
>
> : True, a ham can use a homebrew set on the ham bands. But commercial
> : gear is type accepted. The odds of getting into trouble for not using
> : type accepted commercial gear are probably about the same for ham bands
> : and marine bands.
>
> This side of the pond, commercial amateur equipment does not require to be
> "type approved". However, an Icom M710 or any other item modified to
include
> amateur band coverage is likely to be outside its type approval.
>
> BTW, again this side of the pond, the operator has to pass an exam for
> marine radio operation (or to be actively supervised by an licenced
> operator), even for VHF.
>
WB
equipment must meet minimum standards,,,there is an approval process before
any piece of equipment is sold. If you dont have piece of communications
equipment approved you will get prosecuted. You better check the facts
before spreading nonsense.
Yes again you better check the specs of the frequency stability of most ham
radios, they not as good as most marine radios. I have nothing against
people using ham radios, i use them and quite happy. But if you want to
technically accurate please stick to the facts old boy. Having Ham radio
license does not mean you have the expertise in this area. Any monkey can
pass the ham exam.
Jim Donohue <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message
news:ruqlss...@corp.supernews.com...
> Folks - Maybe a synopsis of all this.
> > My questions are;
> >
> > 1. What must one do to transmit on Marine SSB frequencies?
>
> Have a suitable radio and the required licenses. Ham radios are not legal
> on SSB frequencies though they often are used there. SSB radios often
have
> Ham frequencies available. (Editorial - Many do not work well. On
maritime
> nets it is necessary to make special accomodations for SSB Hams as they
> cannot tune easily over a frequency range.)
>
> The technical arguments about the ham radios not being on frequency are
> generally nonsense. Almost all modern ham radios are well in spec. I
have
> a good ICOM which is vastly better than the SSB spec.
>
WB
eliminate the code so all his CB mates can buy and use the equipment that he
will sell. They dont hav ethe skills to pass simple dots and dashes exam.
He should go to the IMOs web page and download the standards of the Marine
radios, and compare them to average ham set. I have this comment all the
time from ham radio operators, i spent 4000 dollars how can this set not be
good!! The stability and transmitter 3rd order IMD is generally better in
most marine radios. Just listen to a ham radio signal the signals are so
broad, people forget hams are allowed to splatter more than any
communication service. The clean signals and clarity that comes from a
marine radio is a pleisure tio listen to. Bearing in mind that no speech
processing is used. Just turn off the speech processor on your ham radio and
see how crap they sound. The receiver third order intercept point is better
just about every case. Its only in the recent models that attempted to
improve 3rd order intercept points of the receivers. Why because HF radios
sales are terrible and its not cost eefective to produce different standards
for different markets. Anyway the facts are there for all to check out. Why
he does check these facts seeing he is promoting himself as an expert.
Again i dont give a damm,, what anybody decides to use,, there is no doubt
that Ham radios are cost effective sollution for many people. I use my Ic735
and its a great radio. But i have the high stability option because i like
beeing on frequency. So to conclude i have nothing against ham radios. But
the technical facts should be presented correctly.
jean somerhausen <diplo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37EC46...@worldnet.att.net...
> The technical arguments about the ham radios not being on frequency are
> > generally nonsense. Almost all modern ham radios are well in spec. I
have
> > a good ICOM which is vastly better than the SSB spec.
> >
> I have my doubts about that: Gordon West, in an article some time ago,
> pointed out thatthe stability of the average ham TX is about 300 Hz
> whilst that of an SSB marine TX is about 50 Hz. Most ham radio
> manufacturers sell a "high stability crystal" as an optional item which
> is probably standard on a marine SSB set.
> john
>
Larry KN4IM
<diplo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Larry, have you ever tried the same trick with a marine ssb TX ? and if
>yes, with what results ?
>john
>
This obsession with frequency accuracy is most amusing. Suppose we
are calling one of the shore stations for a phunny phone call. When
you tune out the mickey mouse sound with the big, smooth dial, you've
moved your transmitter freq EXACTLY in tune with his receiver....even
on a duplex channel, unless you use Receiver Incremental Tuning (RIT),
which you shouldn't. Now that your transmitter on 12.345 has tracked
his transmitter on 12.678 (fictitious frequency pair, I don't have my
list in front of me)....YOU have the same accuracy as THEM! The
initial call is all you actually need the high stability oscillator
for. All but the cheapest ham SSB units lock on to WWV's zero beat
MUCH more than close enough and it only takes seconds to recalibrate
the whole synthesized unit to it....a tweak of the tuning tool. The
better radios just are tweaked less often....
All this is, of course, IF you are in the USA and not the open
sea....illegal as hell. Operators are all supposed to be too stupid
to zero in on a specific frequency. But, that aside, if you HEAR his
12.678Mhz transmitter WITHOUT the Donald Duck offset....you're DEAD ON
FREQUENCY! Sooooo easy...(c;
The legal-eagle SSB radios have a "clarifier" knob on them.....This
does EXACTLY what I described above. It trims the radio's synthesizer
to match the transmitting stations frequency. As long as both of you
are on the same frequency, it matters not whether it's perfect.
Now, to CHECK the calibration of your legal-eagle synthesized SSB rig,
you only need turn to 10.000000 Mhz, dead on. When WWV isn't talking,
in between the "ticks" of the 5 cycles of 1000Hz "tick" tone (positive
going at the start, by the way, I had to watch it for years in the cal
labs of the US Navy), you will hear a beat note that may be so slow it
simply sounds as if WWV is rapidly fading in and out...woosh, woosh,
woosh. When you are very close, you'll notice the S-meter on the
radio goes up and down in time with this very slow beat note. Adjust
your clarifier until the note is 0 hertz....You and WWV are now
EXACTLY (actually about 5 x 10 -12th power) on 10.00000000000 Mhz.
You'll hear random fading in and out that has no regular interval like
the beat note. Move the clarifier around zero beat and you'll easily
identify which is beat note and which is fading.....
Larry....formerly with the Metrology Engineering Division (Code 132),
Charleston Naval Shipyard. (Our coveted calibration stickers had YCS
on them...)
WB
delays , the quality of your ears WWV is not a way to be commenting on the
frequency accuracy of highly stable radios. It okay for all you blokes with
drifting HROs etc. You might achieve zero beat and have good hears but you
will find that you one in a thousand people that can obtain 1 hz accuracy on
WWV. Trying calibrating a highly stable DSP radio that way, you will be
pulling your hair out time and time again. The whole point of the thread
was that many marine radios have superior specifications in the frequency
stability area that the vast majority of ham radios. We all can argue this
and that about whether the radio cops will pull us up with make belief
scenarios. But again trying to dismiss the proper facts with heresay and
anecdoatl evidence is not accpetable. I am close enough to the Pacific and
listen on Racal commercial receiver to the many maritime frequencies, time
and time again,, someone will call off freqeuncy only my one or two cycles,
yes nothing on ham radio but a pain in the ass when you have channles
scanning with sylabic squelch having to stop the scanner and clarify the
signal. I have never ever encountered a marine radio that is off frequency,
but its always some ham with salt encrusted IC720a or other such device.
The proper way to do it is on the bench with a frequency counter, if you
desperate and have none WWV is a good second choice. But getting back to the
point marine radios have a better frequency stability than most ham radios.
This will become even more importnat as we move DSC technolgy and automated
HF calling. DSC relies on frequency stable radio and if you go to the IMO
web page and download the spec you will find most ham radio wont qualify in
frequency stability for this service. You will then will find out the
importance of frequency accuracy. In Australia we have using DSC for years
now in our outback flying doctor radios, and trying to substitute a ham
radio in the hot and dusty environment never ever used to cut the mustard
for DSC. With a ham radio and external DSC box, you would have been lucky to
trip the remote base 1 out of ten times, again purely because that 1 ot 2 hz
was important. Again we arguing about grains of rice in the eyes of most
people. But its better that we stick to the facts.
I have nothing against ham radios and if people want to save money by using
ham radio they quite welcome too. But many have been jumping this thread
utterley dismising the facts about the known technical specs of the two
services. The information is available from both the FCC and IMO websites
Larry KN4IM <nospam@micro$haft.com> wrote in message
news:37eecbed...@news.supernews.com...
Geoff Blake
: yes again another case of ham myth and sloppy technique, with propgation
Two points:
1 Nobody will attempt to calibrate a signal source to +/- 5 parts in
10^-12 by ear or using a frequency counter (at 10MHz anyway), the
way it is done is with a phase detector and a strip-chart recorder.
2 The main problem with modern "ham radios" is not the frequency
stability, but the frequency (re)setability.
Of course, none of this was a problem in the days of Marconi Atlanta,
Mercury and similar equipment, but in those days, they had REAL OPERATORS!
Geoff
(who still runs a cal lab with +/- 2.5 parts in 10^-11 frequency accuracy)
Jim Donohue
stability of .5 per 10E6 and which of the marine SSBs are better? It also
sets to the nearest hertz. Maybe you want to cite the SGC 2020 which SGC
is heavily marketing as a marine SSB though it is not type accepted (a
stealth ham radio)? Give us some numbers. By the way your 735 indicates
only to the nearest hundred hertz. How is it you set it up to +-10hz?
It is also amazing to learn that clarifiers were added to marine radios only
so they could copy off frequency hams. You are a wealth of fascinating
anecdotes WB.
Jim
WB <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uUHH3.22479$1E2.1...@ozemail.com.au...
WB
plastic trimmers are just a joke. Yes its the same situation here in
australia, they are employing ordinary folk as emergency radio operators.
Any signal under S7 they dont hear , you considered noise. The
professionalism has gone from radio operators. But like most things in the
world, every company and government want third world labour in charge of
everything. Off the issue, how many people know that AOLs 24 hour help desk
is situated in the philiphines staffed by students at $ 2 bucks an hour.
Very soon you will be getting instructions on the VHF from China,, "yacht X
please you in a shipping channel, move or you will be fried rice"
Geoff Blake <ge...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FIq8y...@nospam.demon.co.uk...
Larry KN4IM
Larry KN4IM
You may quote me on that.
John Howell
I ve been watching this thread with some amusement and you are the
nearest to get to why the modern day marine rig is what it is...a black
CB box as described by one of our american kissin cousins...;-)))
Yep thanks to IMO and recent developments and apart from the great USA
where apparently only a small bribe to the authorities is sufficient to
get one an LRC or equivelant licence the rest of the world can obtain a
marine radio operators LRC after a short course and examination but only
it providing that equipment is channelised and fitted with auto
tuner... No we no longer require to have proper qualified operators at
sea...In fact apart from our russian cousins who seem to love it, there
isn t much morse used any more either..
Strangely enough this results in the manufacturers making equipment to
suit the current situation ..Skanti..Furuno...Icom etc all manufacture
similar radios which look something like an oversized office telephone
and come preprogramed with the marine SSB and Telex frequencies simplex
and duplex as well as the ability for many additional frequencies to be
inserted by the user..In all cases these radios can also be obtained
with free running synthesisers as this is a real world..all 360 degrees
of it... and many of us use these radios quite legally outside the
marine frequencies on private SSB and telex links such as in the oil
industry. We for instance have used an Icom 710 for many many years in
Egypt and it sits exactly on frequency and responds immediately to the
ARQ signals from either a marine Skanti or another Icom 710 down in the
Red Sea..Might be "junk" but its good junk ;-)) . The advantage of
these free running synthesisers is that yes..if the local allow then a
Ham may also these radios under his own call sign. So I get to go /MM
from the rigs occasionally both on SSB and Amtor.
I think one of the earlier threadsters made a comment of OFF frequency
and I read and understood that the meaning in his context was not so
much an equipment problem but an operator problem and it is amazing when
you listen to several hams on a net and see how few of them are tuned to
the same carrier frequency..this of course cannot be tolerated in the
real world of DSC and NBDP printing or even amtor...the radios have to
be exactly on frequency otherwise the equipment does not resolve the
signals..As much as we loved the old Mackay, MArconi and Redifon
equipment one thing we all remember was that its stability was not a
strong point, likewise many ham radios are not capable of being switched
on and off over a period and always be on frequency without a bit of
tweeking..I must admit that the FT 890 does surprise me in this respect
providing it has attained operating temperature...a good test is to set
the radio up with a modem on the NAvtex frequency and see how often you
have to tweek it to read it... Tweeking not allowed in the real world!
The problem with using ham radios on marine frequencies is that it
requires a certain amount of intelligence to ensure you are receiving
and transmitting on the frequencies that the coast station will be
using..fine when the Ham is conscious and mobile..however I would have
much more faith in my cabin babe being able to get help with my Icom 800
than with my Yaesu Ft890 !!!!!!! Just turns the knob till the dial reads
the station name and presses the tit!! Even has a wee red button to wake
up the radio operators that still have an auto alarm on 2182 ;-))
I d probably die of old age trying to get her to get the Yaesu 890 onto
duplex operation on the right frequencies and god knows how many of my
grandchildren would be still alive before I got her to select the right
preprogrammed memory to ensure she wasnt trying to call up the VOA in
North Carolina
There are horses for courses and although a carthorse might run in the
Kentucky Derby we wouldn t expect it to win...Likewise a Marine radio is
built to do the job of a marine radio as operated by marine operators
and so has different characteristics to those built for the ham world..
Yep , before disappearing into the wide blue yonder we have a difficult
choice so as to be sure we have the right radio for the job and I must
say even I find it a difficult choice as there are distinct advantages
to being able to tune something like the IC 800 rapidly across the
marine channels to find an open frequency such as Cyprus or Berne radio
which with the Yaesu would require either preprogramming some of those
precious few memories..or the use of a frequency hand book and a lot of
button pushing to get from one marine band to the other..Like wise the
Yaesu is more adept at joining the ham marine nets where one might find
the majority are not quite exactly on 14.300 and so moan every time the
Icom comes up OFF frequency. lol
Well thats my contribution....now I m of back behind my bullet proof
screen...lol
John
<<Big Snip>>
The main problem with modern "ham radios" is not the frequency
> stability, but the frequency (re)setability.
>
> Of course, none of this was a problem in the days of Marconi Atlanta,
> Mercury and similar equipment, but in those days, they had REAL OPERATORS!
>
> Geoff
>
> (who still runs a cal lab with +/- 2.5 parts in 10^-11 frequency accuracy)
> --
> Geoff Blake geoff (at) palaemon . demon . co . uk linux 2.0.36
> Chelmsford g8gnz @ g8gnz . ampr . org sparc - i586
> Please, only use the .ampr.org address if you know what you are doing
> Intel create faster processors - Microsoft create slower processes
--
John Howell Chaka of Birdham MFAX-7
GM4ZQH
Edinburgh Scotland
_____________/)_____________/)______________/)______________
John Howell
I have to sit on both sides of the fence in more ways than one so see
both sides of the arguement...
I ll never forget the look on the Installation managers face on one of
our rigs when he found me demonstrating to a radio operator how to get
the best out of a PK 232...We were working a canadian ham...
He asked if what I was doing was legal!!!!! I thought for a moment and
replied...right frequency....right power.....right licence...one
ommission...he asked what...I responded...forgot to ask the Master s
permission...
He just laughed and said granted as he left the shack!!!
Yep a lot of folk forget we are part of a whole world which includes the
professionals as well and that what appear to be petty local rules are
all part of IMO s global agreements and do have a reason for their
existance.
Even down in Egypt we have the hassle of Garbage management
plans...there is NO escape.....lol
John
>
> WELL PUT
jean somerhausen
problem
john
WB
John Howell <jho...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:37F08D...@netcomuk.co.uk...
Geoff Blake
: I have to sit on both sides of the fence in more ways than one so see
: both sides of the arguement...
: I ll never forget the look on the Installation managers face on one of
: our rigs when he found me demonstrating to a radio operator how to get
: the best out of a PK 232...We were working a canadian ham...
: He asked if what I was doing was legal!!!!! I thought for a moment and
: replied...right frequency....right power.....right licence...one
: ommission...he asked what...I responded...forgot to ask the Master s
: permission...
: He just laughed and said granted as he left the shack!!!
Many years ago, I was moored in the Medawy and operating G8GNZ/MM. I was
(yes, I admit it) working via GB3DA and I was describing the boat that I was
on (slightly larger than the usual yacht) when another amateur (obviously a
FOC member) butted in and asked "did I have the Masters permission to
operate?" in a slightly superior tone. I replied that I didn't know, I'll
ask him. I then had a short conversation which went a bit like this:
g8gnz: (speaking to ships Master) "I need your permission to operate from
this vessel, may I have that permission?"
g8gnz: "Err, yes I think that I can give you that permission"
g8gnz: (to himself) "Thank you very much Sir."
As both the operator and ships Master were licenced, the whole conversation
was broadcast!
Mind you, I don't feel to be Master often - but Jack of all trades..... :-)
: Yep a lot of folk forget we are part of a whole world which includes the
: professionals as well and that what appear to be petty local rules are
: all part of IMO s global agreements and do have a reason for their
: existance.
Yep.
: Even down in Egypt we have the hassle of Garbage management
: plans...there is NO escape.....lol
Eh, what, garbage management in the Nile! It strikes me that the countries
that have the most zealous officials also have the greatest pollution
problems.
Geoff Blake
: Geoff,
: I ve been watching this thread with some amusement and you are the
: nearest to get to why the modern day marine rig is what it is...a black
: CB box as described by one of our american kissin cousins...;-)))
: Yep thanks to IMO and recent developments and apart from the great USA
: where apparently only a small bribe to the authorities is sufficient to
: get one an LRC or equivelant licence the rest of the world can obtain a
: marine radio operators LRC after a short course and examination but only
: it providing that equipment is channelised and fitted with auto
: tuner... No we no longer require to have proper qualified operators at
: sea...In fact apart from our russian cousins who seem to love it, there
: isn t much morse used any more either..
I think that in this respect, everybody is slowly being reduced to the
lowest denominator, which probably the "Flag/Crew of Convenience" states. I
think that in many of these states, IF a radio operator is required on an
ocean going vessel, the qualification relates to the wealth/connections of
one's parents and the ability to recognise a radio (of any type) than the
ability to operate it.
[snip]
: I think one of the earlier threadsters made a comment of OFF frequency
: and I read and understood that the meaning in his context was not so
: much an equipment problem but an operator problem and it is amazing when
: you listen to several hams on a net and see how few of them are tuned to
: the same carrier frequency..this of course cannot be tolerated in the
: real world of DSC and NBDP printing or even amtor...the radios have to
: be exactly on frequency otherwise the equipment does not resolve the
: signals..As much as we loved the old Mackay, MArconi and Redifon
: equipment one thing we all remember was that its stability was not a
: strong point, likewise many ham radios are not capable of being switched
: on and off over a period and always be on frequency without a bit of
: tweeking..I must admit that the FT 890 does surprise me in this respect
: providing it has attained operating temperature...a good test is to set
: the radio up with a modem on the NAvtex frequency and see how often you
: have to tweek it to read it... Tweeking not allowed in the real world!
Hmm, don't knock the old Marconi stuff - Some of their older kit was pretty
stable - my favourite was the R1475 which was the successor to the R1155 and
could be tuned to within +/- 1kHz after a short warm-up time - not bad for
50 year old technology. Another Marconi radio that I still use is the H2301
a.k.a the Eddystone 880A again +/- 1kHz. Neither of these radios were
synthesized although the H2301 had a crystal 1st LO.
Geoff
Jim Lynch
Except that a radio that is able to transmit on the marine frequencies
cannot be type accepted for amateur use. Now they could produce exactly
the same radio, give it two different product numbers and limit the
frequencies of operation differently on each product and get both of
them type accepted. But I'm pretty sure you can't type accept a radio
for amateur use if it can transmit outside of the ham bands.
de k4gvo
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
>
> WB wrote:
> >
> For the most part, that's not true anymore. In many cases, a radio is
> the same basic unit with slight modifications for different services
> (ham, marine, etc.) The only reason a ham radio is not allowed on
> marine frequencies is because it's not type accepted there. It would
> most likely pass a type acceptance test if the manufacturer would bother
> to spend the money to get it type accepted.
Jim Lynch
change bands wont' load. I have to go to a third band and let it load
there and then come back. It acts like it thinks the antenna is
resonant, but the swr is still quite high.
Jim.
jean somerhausen wrote:
>
> I don't leave my TX on all the time, only for contacts (you don't leave
> your fly open all the time either, only when you need to...). The
> antenna is the boat backstay with insulators and an SGC 230. Mostly used
> the 7, 14 and 21 MHz bands plus 12.359. Change the ground strap and
> antenna cable (RG213 with the braid out) from the SGC every year.
> john
> WB wrote:
> >
> > well 1 amp is 24 amps a day, thats a lot of amps for the average small
> > cruiser. I like leaving the receiver running for shortwave or ham radio use.
> > It kills time,, i have a Lowe HF 150 that draws milliamps so can leave it
> > running all day long. You have good results what antenna are you using and
> > what bands are you using just curious.
> >
> > jean somerhausen <diplo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:37E96B...@worldnet.att.net...
> > > One of the advantages of ham radio is that you can reduce your ouput
> > > power to the level you need to be copied. I have sometimes reduced it to
> > > 10 watts on my IC 725. BTW, the 725 is quite flexible on voltage and
> > > takes only1 A on RX. It has survived two Atlantic crossings and only
> > > once did I have any trouble when the microphone got doused by spray and
> > > started scanning madly whenever I pushed the PTT button. A good spray
> > > with WD40 and a wipe with a cloth cured that...
> > > john
> > >
> > >
> > > WB wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes your points are valid,, i was just letting those know the reason for
> > the
> > > > legalities in the issue. But certainly fitting the ham radio with the
> > TXCO
> > > > is a good idea and like you say the finals are the same as the ham
> > radios,
> > > > and in most cases the the transceiver boards are the same. I have
> > noticed
> > > > non tinplated wire connections in the IC710. It is certainly a radio
> > that
> > > > would not stand up in a hostile environment. But where can you find a
> > good
> > > > true marine radio.?? In Australia the companies called Kodan and Barret
> > > > produce marine radios that are excellent, they also tolerate lower
> > volatges
> > > > on the batteries befores sounding like darth vader with a sore throat.
> > This
> > > > aspect of lower voltage operation is something most people seem to
> > ignore. I
> > > > also notice that many of the newer ham radios like IC706 and FT100 all
> > > > specify 13.8volts +- 5%, which is a tough call for most yachts seeing
> > that
> > > > 12 volts represents 80% charged. The radio with the highest guarenteed
> > lower
> > > > voltage performance is the SGC ,10.7 volts minimum which is great.
> > > >
> > > > Another aspect of modern SSB radios is the standby current consumption
> > has
> > > > gone though the roof,, for a yacht this is a huge problem. So small Sony
> > or
> > > > Grundig or Lowe HF150 makes a great monitoring receiver. The low current
> > > > consumption is excellent for those worried about the amps.
> > > >
> > > > Steven Shelikoff <shel...@averstar.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:37EA4593...@averstar.com...
> > > > > WB wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The only reason ham equipment is not allowed on the marine
> > frequencies,
> > > > is
> > > > > > its poor specifications. Most ham radios dont have the frequency
> > > > stability
> > > > > > requirements or transmitter purity for FCC type acceptance. The only
> > > > radio
Jim Lynch
amateur operation. Anything that will transmit a signal that meets the
FCC requirements for power, purity, etc. can be used legally. What you
can't do is legally market a radio to the amateur and advertise it as
ham gear if it can transmit outside of the band limits. Type acceptance
is for marketing purposes, not operation. That was done way back when
Yaesu was selling the majority of the FT-101 transceivers to CBers
'cause it would transmit on 11 meters.
John Howell
> Mind you, I don't feel to be Master often - but Jack of all trades..... :-)
Think that applies to all as if we dont have our hands in the galley
sink their cleaning the loo or engineroom bilges ;-)
> Eh, what, garbage management in the Nile! It strikes me that the countries
> that have the most zealous officials also have the greatest pollution
> problems.
The Red Sea isn t too bad and it seems the tentacles of MArpol and Imo
reach even these waters!
JOhn
John Howell
I might have agreed with you a week ago....was somewhet dissallusioned
today to hear that the panamanian shipping folk not only don t recognise
GMDSS certificates issued in Egypt....They do not approve a single
establishment in the whole of the UK......according to them!!!!!
> I think that in this respect, everybody is slowly being reduced to the
> lowest denominator, which probably the "Flag/Crew of Convenience" states. I
> think that in many of these states, IF a radio operator is required on an
> ocean going vessel, the qualification relates to the wealth/connections of
> one's parents and the ability to recognise a radio (of any type) than the
> ability to operate it.
Yep someof the MArconi was OK and Redifon made a very good receiver in
the 50 s, bit big for Chaka!!! but when I see the surveyors reports for
some of the more elderly transmitters....whoooaaa ;-))
> Hmm, don't knock the old Marconi stuff - Some of their older kit was pretty
> stable - my favourite was the R1475 which was the successor to the R1155 and
> could be tuned to within +/- 1kHz after a short warm-up time - not bad for
> 50 year old technology. Another Marconi radio that I still use is the H2301
> a.k.a the Eddystone 880A again +/- 1kHz. Neither of these radios were
> synthesized although the H2301 had a crystal 1st LO.
>
> Geoff
>
Jim Donohue
Not true. Just incorrect. It is perfectly legal to sell marine SSBs as ham
equipment. Check the specs on the SGC 2020 - a nominal marine SSB which is
actually legal only as a ham rig. Most ham equipment will transmit out of
band and many can be opened up to transmit anywhere. My ICOM 756 -
unmodified - will transmit out of band. A simple mod will make it transmit
anywhere it can receive - which is everywhere from broadcast to 60
megahertz. There is no requirement that a ham rig be limited to the ham
bands. There are some restrictions around 11 meters and some on reception
in the cellular phone bands but no restrictions to only the ham bands.
It may be illegal to operate outside the amateur bands with a ham radio -
but the radio is not illegal.
Jim
Jim Lynch <j...@sgi.com> wrote in message news:37F26EAA...@sgi.com...
Jim Donohue
incorrect - but I will go off and look at the regulation you cite- so you
can again demonstrate your understanding of this stuff.
I still await with bated breath, your explaination of how you manage to get
your ICOM 735 to set up to +- 10 hertz - considering that it will only
register to 100 hertz. Been trying to find the ICOM number for the temp
controlled oscillator you claimed to have. Then again maybe you cut your
own crystal and built your own oven? Probably better than anyone else has
done I imagine.
Is this NG so permissive that you actually get away with this stuff? Sheesh
this wouldn't work even on AOL.
Jim.
WB <will...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:AWBI3.887$lE....@ozemail.com.au...
> no i think you better read the FCC type acceptance rules , there is a
clear
> requirement that stipulates what frequencies the radio must transmit on
for
> ham radio use. This is the case in Europe and most countries. It applies
to
> all ham radio equipment DC to daylight.
>
>
> Jim Donohue <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message
> news:rv506f...@corp.supernews.com...
WB
helps in this regard. But as you said generally i find going 2182 and tuning
then back to say 14mhz it comes to its senses. The Icom is worst in this
regard and has merry go round syndrome, cycling all the time when you tune
two close frequencies. Anyway i just used the 230 for convenience, my
homebrew HI Q random wire tuner is what i use most of the time since i have
a 600 watt brick for convenience.
Jim Lynch <j...@sgi.com> wrote in message news:37F26C9A...@sgi.com...
WB
the sea water as the ground return for the antenna. The other half of the
antenna is still missing and the sea does not make up for this missing bit
of the antenna. The best thing you can do ham or marine band users, is to
install a 1/4 or 1/8 wavelength radial attached to the antenna tuner ground
lug. On my SGC 230 testing gas revealed 1 to 2 S units improvement!!! Where
did this 12 db come from? Its not hard to sneak and zig zag these wires in
the bilges and under the deck lining etc. You will find that on completion
your tuner will lock and tune much quicker. I have two radials for every
ham and marine band. But this is nothing new to those of you who play on the
low bands with 1% efficient antennas.
jean somerhausen <diplo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37F177...@worldnet.att.net...
WB
requirement that stipulates what frequencies the radio must transmit on for
ham radio use. This is the case in Europe and most countries. It applies to
all ham radio equipment DC to daylight.
Jim Donohue <jim_d...@computer.org> wrote in message
news:rv506f...@corp.supernews.com...
> Jim -
> Not true. Just incorrect. It is perfectly legal to sell marine SSBs as
ham
> equipment. Check the specs on the SGC 2020 - a nominal marine SSB which
is
> actually legal only as a ham rig. Most ham equipment will transmit out of
> band and many can be opened up to transmit anywhere. My ICOM 756 -
> unmodified - will transmit out of band. A simple mod will make it transmit
> anywhere it can receive - which is everywhere from broadcast to 60
> megahertz. There is no requirement that a ham rig be limited to the ham
> bands. There are some restrictions around 11 meters and some on reception
> in the cellular phone bands but no restrictions to only the ham bands.
>
> It may be illegal to operate outside the amateur bands with a ham radio -
> but the radio is not illegal.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Lynch <j...@sgi.com> wrote in message news:37F26EAA...@sgi.com...
Geoff Blake
: Geoff
: I might have agreed with you a week ago....was somewhet dissallusioned
: today to hear that the panamanian shipping folk not only don t recognise
: GMDSS certificates issued in Egypt....They do not approve a single
: establishment in the whole of the UK......according to them!!!!!
Do we (the UK) recognise any of their training facilities (presuming they
exist)? Mind you, we don't recognise the US non-licences....
: Yep someof the MArconi was OK and Redifon made a very good receiver in
: the 50 s, bit big for Chaka!!! but when I see the surveyors reports for
: some of the more elderly transmitters....whoooaaa ;-))
: > Hmm, don't knock the old Marconi stuff - Some of their older kit was pretty
: > stable - my favourite was the R1475 which was the successor to the R1155 and
: > could be tuned to within +/- 1kHz after a short warm-up time - not bad for
: > 50 year old technology. Another Marconi radio that I still use is the H2301
: > a.k.a the Eddystone 880A again +/- 1kHz. Neither of these radios were
: > synthesized although the H2301 had a crystal 1st LO.
Hmm, I should have pointed out that the H2301 is used for fixed station
amateur use, it weighs about 60kg, not for marine use in a 6m yacht!
Geoff
Buster
not the other way around. Marine Radios must be Type accepted but Ham does not.
So if you are a Ham and have a Marine Band License a Marine HF Radio can be used
for both.
Buster
"Jon V." wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Peter Bennett wrote:
>
> > Hams can only operate in the ham bands, and you may only use your marine
> > radio in the marine bands - there is no frequency where both ham and marine
> > can both legally be used.
>
> This is true, but there is one additional datum that may be relevant... at
> least if accurate.
>
> Marine SSB radios will only transmit on Marine bands. Some ham radios will
> transmit on both the ham bands *and* the Marine bands.
>
> In other words, you may be well served by getting the HAM license and
> buying the HAM equipment. You still need the ship's license to transmit on
> the Marine bands, but you don't need two sets of radios, and you can talk
> to anybody.
>
> Anybody care to converse on the accuracy of that information?
>
> -Jon
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If you aren't rich you should always look useful.
> -- Louis-Ferdinand Celine
Dick
modify a Ham radio or marine SSB radios to transmit on the other bands. But a
Ham radio can easily modified. The marine radio is a different story but you
can buy some that can transmit on any freq. which means they will work on ham
bands. I know this because I have one of them. Ham is lower sideband and marine
is upper sideband. It is easy to tell who is using which radio. The ham radios
are off freq. a little and the marine radios can't scan the freq. to find an
empty frequency. So it is polite to ask the person you are talking to if they
are analog or digital when changing freq. Most cruisers have one radio and have
both licenses. So it is your choice. Either way is easy to do.
Also a ham license in the US may be easy to get. I don't know the cost but in
other countrys you have to get a license for each county you go to and there
will be a fee. The marine SSB that you get here in the US is good all over the
world so you don't have to get one in each country. Also in other countrys like
Mexico the hams have to add a sufix to there call signs when they transmit as a
Mexican station. At sea they use there regular call letters.
Dick
Dick
S/V Morning Star
members.aol.com/seabusines/
sal...@salnick.cac.washington.edu
The following 'facts' presented below are incorrect - you judge the
value of the remainder of the presentation...
1. "Marine SSB radios are digital and Ham radios are analog"
Ham radios are either digital or analog. No flames from other
hams on the fine distinction here - I am trying to keep the
argument simple.
2. "Ham is lower sideband and marine is upper sideband"
Ham radios are lower sideband, upper sideband, both
sidebands, AM, FM, slow-scan TV, etc.
Just guessing, but I think it is unlikely that this individual actually
has a ham license...
bob
WA9BVE
Geoff Blake
: I can't let this one slide by...
: The following 'facts' presented below are incorrect - you judge the
: value of the remainder of the presentation...
: 1. "Marine SSB radios are digital and Ham radios are analog"
: Ham radios are either digital or analog. No flames from other
: hams on the fine distinction here - I am trying to keep the
: argument simple.
: 2. "Ham is lower sideband and marine is upper sideband"
: Ham radios are lower sideband, upper sideband, both
: sidebands, AM, FM, slow-scan TV, etc.
: Just guessing, but I think it is unlikely that this individual actually
: has a ham license...
Or more likely, he has, but doesn't understand it.
Geoff
: > Marine SSB radios are digital and Ham radios are analog. It is illegal to
Dick
>sal...@salnick.cac.washington.edu wrote:
>: I can't let this one slide by...
>
>: The following 'facts' presented below are incorrect - you judge the
>: value of the remainder of the presentation...
>
>: 1. "Marine SSB radios are digital and Ham radios are analog"
>: Ham radios are either digital or analog. No flames from other
>: hams on the fine distinction here - I am trying to keep the
>: argument simple.
>
This is the terminology that hams on the cruising nets that I listen to use not
mine. Hams can spin there dial to the freq. they want so they call that analog.
Marine SSB punch buttons to get the exact freq. so they call that digital.
>: 2. "Ham is lower sideband and marine is upper sideband"
>: Ham radios are lower sideband, upper sideband, both
>: sidebands, AM, FM, slow-scan TV, etc.
>
Marine SSB are lower, AM, and FM too but cruising nets are on freq. that use
lower (ham)and upper(marine and some ham) side band freq. There may be cruising
nets on AM, FM, and slow-scan TV but I have not found them yet.
>: Just guessing, but I think it is unlikely that this individual actually
>: has a ham license...
>
>Or more likely, he has, but doesn't understand it.
>
No I don't have a ham license and I don't think I ever want one.
Dick
Joe Della Barba
wrote:
>The way I understand it, as a Ham I can use a Marine Band Radio on Ham Bands but
>not the other way around. Marine Radios must be Type accepted but Ham does not.
>So if you are a Ham and have a Marine Band License a Marine HF Radio can be used
>for both.
>
>Buster
>
>"Jon V." wrote:
>
This is true. What the messages concerning analog vs digital mean is
that hams are used to tuning by turning a knob to match the frequency
of an ongoing conversation, like and old car radio. Marine SSB sets
are not intended to do this. Depending on the set, you can fine tune
your frequency but it is awkward. Thus in a ham QSO (conversation) you
might mention something like " I will meet you on 14.325, I have a
marine set so can you tune on my signal". Hams use both USB and LSB.
On some marine sets LSB (lower side band) is an option. If you want to
use a marine set on ham bands make sure you get LSB. Good luck!
73 de N3HGB
Joe Della Barba
btw a Kenwood TKM-707 is a great marine/ham radio if you can find one.
Tony McConnell
marine ssb rig, it MAY NOT be used for amateur use. This is a
technicality that doesn't apply to most of us. I must confess
that many keep a 'marine' radio around but usually use their
ham rigs. I don't know about you but my ham rig is a much better
radio than my 'marine' radio, that is kept for compliance sake.
WB
what most people think, most marine radios have better receivers, ie the 3rd
order intercept point is generally above +20dbm. Another key feature is
because there is a lack of gadgets in the IF there phase noise is also
better in most cases. Take your old Collins KWM 2 or Drake R4 and put it
next door to your DSP radio, you will be shocked what you here. Many marine
radios have similar receive charestics to these older radios, they are
cleaner. Transmitter 3rd order IMD is also better, they bias there finals
more efficiently etc etc, it is the only the recent generation of ham
radios, that were as frequency stable. I mean tune across 20 meteres and you
fill find 2 ham stations with state of the art 1hz DSP radios arguing who
is on and off frequency. Marine radios adopted better stability requirements
long time ago. Finally the new generation of ham radios are not battery
compatible, a slight voltage drop most loose the gaurentee of performance.
If i take my wife and many woman as an example, if she had to scream for
help on a ham radio she would be in trouble, the number and complexity of a
simple operation is a problem. Just listen to the Pacific maritime net with
all those YLs who have fluked the license for there OM, wrong sideband ,
lack of understanding of basic procedures and the list goes on and on, yes
they are licensed hams!
Anyway you not comparing apples with apples. The only thing i hate about
marine radios is that lack a VFO knob. Those up down tuning controls just
dont cut it.
Tony McConnell <n3...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3817B6C0...@home.com...
Joe Della Barba
I have found the opposite!
My TS-440 can pick out signals that I could never get on a strict
marine radio. I use the RIT and the IF shift all the time, mainly to
reduce QRM. The 440 also has a crystal oven option that puts it right
on spec with a marine rig. And I heard of someonethat used a 440 as a
marine radio and never got a complaint about freq or modulation.
OTOH, If I wanted a rig that ANYONE on board could use to full effect,
it would be an ICOM M-700, no question. The Kenwood DOES have a fair
VFO knob control.
73
Joe
WB
Joe Della Barba <jo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:381ac356....@news.earthlink.net...