Seek advice on alternator replacement for a Perkins 4-108
jpch...@pechan.com
I think my alternator for my Perkins 4-108 is dead, and have
taken it off the boat. The engine ran fine, but the charging
light--which goes out when charging--never went on and the
ammeter never moved. The belt was tight, and there seemed to
be voltage at the big positive pole on the alternator. The unit
is a Lucas (UK) and I think it has a built-in diode/regulator.
This is a 30-55 amp alternator, which is fine for me (I don't
want a battery boiler). What should I do--get the old one
fixed(who does this)? Buy a replacement Lucas-type with built
in regulator? buy a newer kind with external regulator? Can I
bolt on a car-type alternator like I regularly do in my old
cars--for less than $100 (why not?).
Advice/ideas appreciated.
Phil Childress
Bruce P. Barden
or higher) that the original alternator was, in fact, an automotive
alternator. If you do not require high amperage the logical action is to
get a used automotive alternator, preferably with an internal regulator,
and be happy. But, do be sure that the mounting is correct and the vee
belts line up.
There are those (usually those who would sell you one) who claim that you
need a properly "marinized" alternator but checking the part numbers with
the manufacturers usually shows that the unit in question is simply a
general purpose alternator used on farm tractors or snowplows :-)
(The high amperage alternators do tend to be a bit better built, as well as
a bit more expensive though)
--
-------------------------------------------
Bruce P. Barden
bru...@pacific.net.sg
Singapore
-------------------------------------------
Curtis Johnson
Phil,
If you were happy with the original installation, just have it fixed. I
think most alternators used with the Perkins engines had external
regulators...if so, that may be the first place to begin troubleshooting.
You might consider buying Nigel Calder's book on electrical and mechanical
repair, he'll walk you through the steps of troubleshooting your electrical
system.
Good luck.
jpch...@pechan.com wrote in article <5mbcmg$uoq$2...@kronos.crosslink.net>...
Russell Cannell
On 26 May 1997 07:04:48 GMT, jpch...@pechan.com wrote:
>I think my alternator for my Perkins 4-108 is dead, and have
>taken it off the boat. The engine ran fine, but the charging
>light--which goes out when charging--never went on and the
>ammeter never moved. The belt was tight, and there seemed to
>be voltage at the big positive pole on the alternator. The unit
>is a Lucas (UK) and I think it has a built-in diode/regulator.
>
>This is a 30-55 amp alternator, which is fine for me (I don't
>want a battery boiler). What should I do--get the old one
>fixed(who does this)? Buy a replacement Lucas-type with built
>in regulator? buy a newer kind with external regulator? Can I
>bolt on a car-type alternator like I regularly do in my old
>cars--for less than $100 (why not?).
>
>Advice/ideas appreciated.
>
>Phil Childress
>
>
Replace the warning light bulb & your alt will begin to charge.
Regards
Russell
e-mail rus...@rcannell.demon.co.uk
Young student who has just had the big-bang theory and the
creation of the universe explained to him.
"Ok let's see if i've got it this time..first there was nothing
and then it exploded?"
david johnson
If you are happy with the output just get yours overhauled, it
will be cheaper than new and better than a used one. If it is
the original alternator supplied by Perkins then it will be for
a marine application. There are aftermarket alternators that
have more power and will bolt on with both internal and
external regulators but sounds like you are happy with the
original.
Rod McInnis
Bruce P. Barden wrote:
> It is very likely that unless you had a high amperage alternator ( 50 amps
> or higher) that the original alternator was, in fact, an automotive
> alternator.
If the boat was manufactured for sale in the United State in the last
30 years, and met the Coast Guard legal requirements, then the
alternator would certainly *not* be an automotive style.
>If you do not require high amperage the logical action is to
> get a used automotive alternator, preferably with an internal regulator,
> and be happy. But, do be sure that the mounting is correct and the vee
> belts line up.
If you have a diesel engine, and don't have any propane or other
volitile fuels aboard, you could be happy with an automotive
alternator. If you have a gas engine, or carry gas for the dinghy, you
could end up dead.
> There are those (usually those who would sell you one) who claim that you
> need a properly "marinized" alternator but checking the part numbers with
> the manufacturers usually shows that the unit in question is simply a
> general purpose alternator used on farm tractors or snowplows :-)
A marine alternator is generally based on an automotive or industrial
equivalent, so if you compare part numbers of the case or internal
parts, you can come to the wrong conclusion. Can't comment on the type
of alternators farm tractors or snowplows use. But a "properly
marinized" alternator will have a subtle, but very important additional
part: The flame arrestor.
With the slip ring brushes, an alternator won't generate nearly as
much arcing as a motor or generator does. But the odds are that it will
spark from time to time, and there is little you can do to prevent it.
The alternator windings need air for cooling, so you can't seal the
unit to keep out any explosive gases that might be lurking in the
bilge. What you can do, however, is contain the fire to the interior of
the alternator case and not let it spread to the surrounding area. This
is where the flame arrestor comes in. It doesn't look like much,
essentially just a screen over the air openings. But it is enough to
quench the flame front and keep a fire from passing through.
Many people like to save a few bucks and use the cheaper automotive
parts. But you are playing the odds, and making the odds pile up
against you when you do this. A proper marine installation has triple
redundency for safety. First, the marine fuel system parts will prevent
gas from leaking into the bilge in the first place. Second, the blower
will remove any fumes that may have collected if the fuel system does
fail. Third, the marine electrical parts won't ignite any fumes that do
collect.
If you start cheating on the marine electrical, you are relying on not
having fumes to ignite. If you extend the same thinking to the fuel
pump, then you are relying on the blower to remove the fumes when that
fuel pump eventually fails. If you have applied similar cost savings to
the blower, you have now removed all the safety checks, and it is simply
a matter of time.
Please, I encourage you not to replace your marine parts with
automotive parts. If you are adament about it, please don't encourage
other to.
Rod McInnis
Rod McInnis
Russell Cannell wrote:
>
> On 26 May 1997 07:04:48 GMT, jpch...@pechan.com wrote:
>
> > The engine ran fine, but the charging
> >light--which goes out when charging--never went on and the
> >ammeter never moved.
> Replace the warning light bulb & your alt will begin to charge.
A burned out (or otherwise inoperative) warning light can indeed cause
no alternator output, as the "idiot light" (via the ignition) is often
where the alternator gets its "sense" voltage and initial field current.
Another possible explanation would be worn out brushes. They
generally aren't too difficult to change, and shouldn't cost very much.
I would recommend trying to find replacement parts *before* tearing the
alternator apart.
30 years ago, alternator/generator/starter motor rebuild shops used to
be everywhere. But now, cheap imported rebuilts have made the rebuild
shops hard to find. They still exist, though, so you should check
around. Try looking around for places that repair industrial / farm
equipement rather than automotive.
Rod McInnis
jpch...@pechan.com
In article <338aa8d...@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK>, rus...@rcannell.demon.co.uk says...
>
>Replace the warning light bulb & your alt will begin to charge.
>
>Regards
>
>Russell
I haven't been at the boat to check the light bulb.
But an alternator repair shop checked the old Lucas
alternator out, says it's bad, and is estimating whether
they can fix it. They say it has an external regulator
(hidden somewhere on the boat--I didn't see it).
I also checked out automobile alternators. A stock "big ford"
alternator body fits perfectly--just need to drill out one hole.
The cost is $39.95 plus $20 core cost, and about $12 for a
regulator to match. So for $72 I can get a set. One person
(who works for a marine company) e-mailed me that this is against
some safety regulation to use an automobile alternator in a
marine environment. I don't see that there should be any problem
with a diesel--there aren't any fumes near it-- so may go for it,
if the estimate is too high to repair the old Lucas.
Phil
Steve Weingart
In article <5mfk4h$6cm$1...@kronos.crosslink.net>, jpch...@pechan.com wrote:
>I haven't been at the boat to check the light bulb.
>But an alternator repair shop checked the old Lucas
> alternator out, says it's bad, and is estimating whether
> they can fix it. They say it has an external regulator
>(hidden somewhere on the boat--I didn't see it).
>
>I also checked out automobile alternators. A stock "big ford"
> alternator body fits perfectly--just need to drill out one hole.
> The cost is $39.95 plus $20 core cost, and about $12 for a
> regulator to match. So for $72 I can get a set. One person
>(who works for a marine company) e-mailed me that this is against
> some safety regulation to use an automobile alternator in a
>marine environment. I don't see that there should be any problem
>with a diesel--there aren't any fumes near it-- so may go for it,
> if the estimate is too high to repair the old Lucas.
>
>Phil
>
gasoline anywhere, no propane, no alcohol, etc), an automotive alternator is a
good chance at getting dead.
Look up Auto Electric (or farm machinery) in your Yellow Pages, chances are
you will be able to find some old dude who knows how to do what you need.
My local guy has all the parts and for an extra $10 will correctly install the
flame arresting screens on a low cost rebuilt auto alternator making it safe
to use in the boat. He's one of the more popular local businesses all of the
boaters got to him for price relief :-)
It's not a big deal to get it right, but it can be if you don't.
Steve
Chuck Woods
Genstar in Oakland Ca rebuilt my Balmar 135 amp for about $125. It had
been submerged in salt water (oopppps) and Balmar had declared it dead.
Works fine now. Great people and easy to deal with.
Best wishes
chuck
Rod McInnis wrote:
>
> Russell Cannell wrote:
> >
> > On 26 May 1997 07:04:48 GMT, jpch...@pechan.com wrote:
> >
> > > The engine ran fine, but the charging
> > >light--which goes out when charging--never went on and the
> > >ammeter never moved.
>
> > Replace the warning light bulb & your alt will begin to charge.
>
bill smith
Rod McInnis wrote:
>
> Bruce P. Barden wrote:
>
> Please, I encourage you not to replace your marine parts with
> automotive parts. If you are adament about it, please don't encourage
> other to.
>
> Rod McInnis
Bruce,
As usual, Rod has totally nailed it. There is a difference, and it's
important.
So, just one thing to add...
Fix the old alternator. (it's diodes are probably gone)
Take it to a real alternator service company and have them replace the
regulator/diode module. BTW, it's the new alternators that have the
internal regulators, the old ones have the extrenal regulators. if you
have them re-build the alternator, you will probably not spend much
more, and you would get new bearings, brushes, and they will lathe turn
the rings too.
i would not do this usually, but since you seem to be in signapore...
Gen-Star in Oakland, CA
contact john at 510-893-6161
prob. about $75+shipping to repair
$150 to $250 to rebuild
if you can provide part numbers to me via e-mail, i will call john and
get a part price quote. if it's just a diode/regulator, you can easily
do that yourself.
best regards,
bill
jaro...@bellsouth.net
In article <5mbcmg$uoq$2...@kronos.crosslink.net>,> taken it off the boat. The engine ran fine, but the charging
> light--which goes out when charging--never went on and the
> be voltage at the big positive pole on the alternator. The unit
> is a Lucas (UK) and I think it has a built-in diode/regulator.
>
> This is a 30-55 amp alternator, which is fine for me (I don't
> want a battery boiler). What should I do--get the old one
> fixed(who does this)? Buy a replacement Lucas-type with built
> in regulator? buy a newer kind with external regulator? Can I
> bolt on a car-type alternator like I regularly do in my old
> cars--for less than $100 (why not?).
>
> Advice/ideas appreciated.
Phil,
I too had a similar type of alternator go bad on me for one reason or
another. The way I solved the problem was by installing the "Automac II"
external regulator by Weems and Plath (under $200). It comes with
instructions on how to bypass the alternator's existing regulator. If
it's internal, this means opening up the alternator. I had only general
knowledge about such things when I started, but was able to connect it
with no problem. And the instructions list a toll free number which I
found very helpful in answering questions. The unit has a knob on the
front of it which allows me to dial the amount of amps I want out of the
alternator from 0 to full output in the first stage of charging. The
second and third stages are automatic as the battery reaches full
charge, then maintains a floating charge. I'm very happy with it and it
saved me the cost of buying a new alternator.
I have posted an article about the Automac II at my website at the URL
below under "News and Information." The article is entitled "Alternators
and Regulators."
Regards,
J.A. Rogers
Sailaway Cruising Club
http://www.10mb.com/sailaway
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jpch...@pechan.com
In article <5mh8sc$i1g$2...@news.gate.net>, s...@gate.net says...
>
>Like Rod said, unless you have *NO* flamable fumes in your boat (read no
>gasoline anywhere, no propane, no alcohol, etc), an automotive alternator is a
>good chance at getting dead.
>
>Look up Auto Electric (or farm machinery) in your Yellow Pages, chances are
>you will be able to find some old dude who knows how to do what you need.
>
>My local guy has all the parts and for an extra $10 will correctly install the
>flame arresting screens on a low cost rebuilt auto alternator making it safe
>to use in the boat. He's one of the more popular local businesses all of the
>boaters got to him for price relief :-)
>
>It's not a big deal to get it right, but it can be if you don't.
>
>Steve
Just to wrap this thread up from my end, I paid a local alternator shop $151.61 to
replace rectifying diodes, brushes, bearings and
split rings--basically a complete rebuild, and asked
for the old parts, which were in pretty bad shape. My
decision was basically to avoid time and hassle.
The old one had worked well for 12 years, and will be a
15 minute job to re-bolt and connect it. The new one
would have raised problems with size of pulley, re-wiring,
and maybe sparks. The only flamable stuff near my engine
could be propane. I keep dinghy gas--1.5 gallons max--off
the pushpit in a steel can--had a plastic one ooze 5
gallons out a seam once into the cockpit overnight. That
was a bomb which luckily didn't happen!
Just generally, I do think some of this safety stuff isn't
done with proper statistical/actuarial analysis, and that
there is a world full of chiselers out there that want it
that way. For safety, refineries make sure there's plenty of
hydrocarbon over product tank liquid surfaces and no air/oxygen.
Propane can't even burn if it's not between about 9 and 11
percent of the volume of air/propane mix--it's too lean or
too rich. We'd be safe if we stayed in bed. Some people
die in escalators every year, but we keep on hoofing onto
them. There has to be a balance. I still can't see any
"flame-resistant" screens on my old Lucas alternator. And
I have a heck of a time lighting my propane stove with
my galley's spark-making thing.
Phil Childress
JMason
We have a Perkins 4-108, and it is equipped with a Delco 12-SI 94 Amps
Type "N", 2" foot, marked "1105 507Y 94A 9124 12V NEG". Works just
fine, and parts (internal regulator, brush assy, bridge, trio etc. are
very cheap and available everywhere.
John Mason
S.V. Wanderstar - Fast Passage 39
"Freedom, Reason, and Tolerance"
jonatha...@gmail.com
waynebatr...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>I think they came with a Lucas 40 amp
>
If you take your existing alternator to an auto electric shop (check
the web or yellow pages), they can tell you what will match up. The
key factors are the type of mounting foot, the adjustment arm, and the
electrical connections.
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bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
made, alternator. No problems what so ever. Quite obviously the
previous owner had checked, as you say, mountings, pulley size,
adjustment, etc., and worked fine for the 10 years, or so, I owned the
boat.