41 foot sailboat - cost of ownership?
ray lunder
pretty good deal on a 41 footer that needs some work. Can anyone
comment on the less obvious costs of owning a boat this size? I do
most repairs myself on smaller boats. Thanks as always.
Steve Lusardi
There are several hidden costs and most people are unaware of them before
they bite. Be very careful about taxes and use charges. These are very
different, place to place. Moorage fees can also bite. Security costs are
location specific and are a real concern. The biggest of all is insurance.
The typical cost is 1.5 to 2.5 % of the insured value per annum. Remember,
good insurance is insurance that pays when claims are made, not the least
expensive premium. Make absolutely sure what your insurance covers, even if
you have to hire a third party to decode the fine print. Do not insure low.
If you do and then make a claim, the value of the claim will automatically
be reduced proportionally. Do not use an estimate of value. Get the boat
surveyed and thoroughly inventoried with photos and receipts and be certain
to submit them to the insurer at the time of signing the contract. By now
you have realized just how expensive this coverage is. You can elect, as
most people do, to assume your property risk yourself. You must not elect to
not insure against liability. This is very foolish, as liability insurance
is affordable. Under the law of the sea, the vessel is firstly responsible
for any caused damages. What this means is when the responsible party is in
question, a bond must be made equaling the claim or the vessel is chained to
a pier until the issue is resolved. This can take years. The costs for this
moorage will be born by you and can easily exceed the cost of the vessel.
Additionally, you may not be allowed either access to, or maintenance of,
the vessel during its impoundment.
If you are thinking about mortgaging the purchase, you will be forced to buy
full coverage insurance of the vessel and you will find that this very
expensive insurance will have a use radius clause which limits your coverage
to say 150 mile radius from your declared home port. Any voyage exceeding
this radius will require specific trip insurance, which may not even be
offered or it will be offered at such a rate that it would not be
unaffordable. Additionally, the mortgage holder must also give specific
permission for the trip. There is a very good reason that only very wealthy
people with lots of disposable income own large boats, even if they build
the boat themselves.
Steve
"ray lunder" <fs...@dyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8tgo35rjotaonhtd...@4ax.com...
Roger Long
"needs some work" didn't come up in the survey. Admittedly, I have done a
number of things that I didn't need to do but the cost of things like
halyards that you find "usable" but at the end of their reliable life is
staggering when all the little things are added up. My rule of thumb for
"good deal" boats is to have an amount equal to the purchase price put a way
in a boat budget at the time you take delivery. Plan on going through it in
the first year.
If you are just buying a boat to leave at the dock or on a mooring and
daysail a couple of times with maybe an overnight thrown in, you can get
away with a lot less. If you plan to sail any distance and want the boat to
be reliable and set up so you enjoy sailing it, you'll be appalled how fast
the money goes into it. But, then you'll smile and realize it's worth every
penny.
A $30,000 boat will cost $30,000 in the first year or two no matter what the
purchase price is.
--
Roger Long
Roger Long
could expect for a 1980 boat. You should multiply these by the ratio of the
product of the beam and length for each boat instead of the length or about
1.75 instead of 1.25.
Purchase price: $15,000
Transport MI to ME: $3,000
Total out of pocket at first sail: about $25,000 (Boat was pretty well
stripped so this is a bit on the high side.)
Value of 5, 7 day weeks of work at local shipyard rates by first sail:
$15,000 (This is why you had better be able to do things yourself!)
I didn't start tracking things until last fall but here is a typical year
after the boat was up and running and in very usable condition:
Misc equipment and expenses: $3,700
Major replacements (things I don't expect to do again) $2,600
Upgrades (Wind Vane, etc.) $6,200
Winter Storage: $2,200
Dockage: $3,000
Insurance: $350 (Plan on double. I've got a good deal.)
Navigation: $420
Fuel: $460
Plastic boat shed: $900
How much could I sell this boat for in today's market? I'd be lucky to get
20 grand for her if I needed to sell her in less than a year. Better be
sure you are buying the boat you want. Moving up is economically very
painful to do.
--
Roger Long
Paul Cassel
You need to specify what sort of work and if you can do it yourself. A
good rule of thumb for any boat is that if in perfect shape, it'll cost
10% of its value per year in maintenance charges if you hire it all out.
How much you'll save if you DIY will depend on the job.
I bought a 42' boat in decent shape needing some minor work. My first
brush was redo the running rigging, I found a bad water tank so I needed
to have a new one fabbed, and the reefer needed re-wiring. The cost of
those modest items (SS tank) was $12k all farmed out to a yard.
Later I found too much water in the fuel so I had the diesel polished -
another $1k. Standing rigging redo after I found a frayed wire at a
fitting (also missed during survey) $5k with me doing most of the work
I can go on. My boat wasn't expensive. Some other guy bought a similar
sized boat with an electrically operated swing keel which got stuck in
the box. I think that one cost about $30k to sort out.
So you really need to specify the boat type, its systems and what sort
of issues you KNOW it has now. I will say with 100% certainty that you
don't know the entire story at this point.
-paul
Jere Lull
Can't comment without seeing the boat. I've seen some that looked rough
but were basically sail-away; others that were even rougher than they
appeared. (All boats that have been sitting a few weeks look rough.)
Your best investment right now is a full survey, and to make any
purchase agreement dependent on you being satisfied with the report. (A
"satisfactory survey" can bring some really bad news.) Part of the
survey is a good ball-park estimate of the boat's value and what
repairs/replacements are needed by priority. Anything that isn't
"immediate", BTW, means if/when you get around to it. (I still have
some items to do from our survey 16 seasons ago.)
Assume the electronics are outdated and/or fried, as will be most
everything that can wear out or simply get old. Frankly, anything like
that which works is gravy.
And get with the owners' group(s)! Usually, a necessary repair is a
real bear, but sometimes it's not so bad when you can get good advice.
(See Xan's bulkhead replacement below for one of the latter.)
--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
Roger Long
>
> A good rule of thumb for any boat is that if in perfect shape, it'll cost
> 10% of its value per year in maintenance charges if you hire it all out.
> How much you'll save if you DIY will depend on the job.
>
And, you have to be very careful that you understand what that is 10% of.
If you went out and bought a new cruising boat just built, you might pay
$200,000. Annual cost will then be $20,000 according to this rule. You can
buy an older boat that is the functional equivalent in today's depressed
market for about $20,000. Annual cost is not going to be 10% of $20,000,
it's going to be 10% of $200,000, or, almost as much as you paid for the
boat. Actually, it will be somewhat higher because an older boat will need
more maintenance and equipment replacement. Dockage cost the same per foot
for a Morris Yachts gold plater and a plywood barge.
--
Roger Long
Paul Cassel
> "Paul Cassel" <pcassel...@comremovecast.net> wrote
>> A good rule of thumb for any boat is that if in perfect shape, it'll cost
>> 10% of its value per year in maintenance charges if you hire it all out.
>> How much you'll save if you DIY will depend on the job.
>>
>
> And, you have to be very careful that you understand what that is 10% of.
> If you went out and bought a new cruising boat just built, you might pay
> $200,000. Annual cost will then be $20,000 according to this rule. You can
> buy an older boat that is the functional equivalent in today's depressed
> market for about $20,000.
I'd like to see the listings of a boat, in good shape, at 10% of it's
original value. Yes, boat prices are down, but they aren't a dime on a
dollar - or I don't think so.
-paul
Roger Long
>
> I'd like to see the listings of a boat, in good shape, at 10% of it's
> original value. Yes, boat prices are down, but they aren't a dime on a
> dollar - or I don't think so.
>
for 15 K. I see ads for new "daysailers" with some cruising accomodations
that are a bit smaller and have less of everything except cosmetic
appearance for a big chunk out of a million bucks. My annual expenses and
theirs will be a lot closer than the price difference.
I don't pay much attention to the new market. Can someone tell me what a
midrange quality 32 footer goes for today?
--
Roger Long
mari...@nb.sympatico.ca
"Paul Cassel" <pcassel...@comremovecast.net> wrote in message
news:Z4-dnSyqY_pLghTa...@comcast.com...
You have received good feedbacks concerning your question.
What I did was to establish the cost of owning a sailboat that has to be
refurbished to a point that I do not know?
The cost of owning a sailboat that is already in ship shape with almost
nothing to be added.
I estimated the cost to ą15% and projected (incl. repairs, maintenance,
depression, escalation, finance, insurance, residual value and etc.) it to
10 and 20 years. In my case because of my age I use a 10 years period.
Then I brought back the resulting figures to their present value in today's
money.
Over here, a 15 to 20 years old boat has to be surveyed every 5 years for
insurance.
All this present value analysis is construed as pure academic BS by many but
it did gave me a good tool for to draw the line.
One interesting thing is that a surveyor can only comment on what he/she can
see.
Last year one member of our club has his 44 foot sailboat surveyed. On his
way South the rudder of the boat came apart and their had to abandon ship
during a bad storm.
hpeer
dougk...@yahoo.com
As others have said, it depends *very* much on what kind of work.
Materials have a way of costing way more than most people think,
especially as the boat size goes up. This can make a "pretty good
deal" suddenly look sour.
The other factoid- time is (of course) money. Unless you really enjoy
the particular sort of work that this boat needs, you are probably
better off working extra hours & buying a boat that is already in good
shape.
Another "cost of ownership" is taxes- you can end up paying sales tax
to your state or a "use tax" which can be a disguised sales tax on
your purchase or a fee based on what the state thinks the boat should
be worth... then you pay property taxes, often in both county & town.
Depends very much on your area, but on a 41-footer it's sure to be
more of an issue than a smaller boat. Another point about sales tax...
many states now demand a share of what you should have paid them, when
you move the boat into that state. Florida is a famous example, if you
are cruising thru Flroida and stay more than 30 days they want you to
register your boat with them (which is about $100 IIRC) and if you
stay more than 90 days they want you to pay them sales tax .... no
matter how long ago you bought the boat... although they are kind
enough to allow you to deduct what you paid in sales tax in your home
state.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
Faire dinkum
ongoing costs.
For example, the ongoing costs associated with a 35 foot cruising boat that
is in good condition will be less, perhaps much less, than a 35 foot hard
core racing boat where sails may depreciate over 1-3 years rather than the
longer life of cruising sails. A racer will be pressed harder more of the
time leading to earlier component replacement (blocks, running rigging,
etc.) There are usually costs associated with racing crews (grog, food,
shirts, bail).
I've used a racer as just one example. If a boat will be used for family
fun in the harbour then the recurring costs will clearly be much less than a
boat that is used for extended offshore cruising.
I'm probably not saying anything that you haven't considered if you've owned
boats in the past but there may be some readers who are less experienced.
"ray lunder" <fs...@dyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8tgo35rjotaonhtd...@4ax.com...
dougk...@yahoo.com
> >Winter Storage: $2,200
WaIIy wrote:
> Holy Smokes
Yep; that's what I thought too.
But it's still cheaper than moving south.
DSK
JimB
big elements in the cost of running a new vessel, and the reason why big
charter companies have 3 or 5 year 'yacht ownership schemes' - whereby Mr
Joe Soap owns the boat and takes the financial whack, while they only have
to contribute the running costs.
For a second hand vessel the depreciation element is smaller, and the cost
of commissioning can be lower - if it's inventory has been kept in good
shape. And that inventory of equipment (rigging, motor and all) will
represent about 30% of the value of the vessel . . . so checking it's status
is very important in the total purchase price, and the cost of that first
commissioning.
I bought a 40.6 ft boat in 1996; it was 8 years old, equipment rather run
down, but a quality hull and interior (Oyster). Price, £97,000 after
knocking off an obvious £10,000 for replacement kit. A further £10,000 spent
over the next two years catching up with items which were not detected on
purchase - so, £20,000 commissioning, bringing her up to scratch. Total cost
of purchase - £117,000.
From then on, living aboard 8 months a year and cruising very actively,
doing most labour myself, cost of running the boat (mooring, fuel, running
repairs to maintain value) in northern Europe averaged at £11,000 a year for
5 years, then £8,000 a year in the Mediterranean, average £10,000. (berthing
and hauling costs in the Med were much cheaper than UK)
I then sold the vessel for £97,000 - in good order. Depreciation = £2,000 a
year, then add inflation at 2.5% pa, = £3,000 a year, total depreciation
£5,000 pa. (Opportunity cost at 5%, £6,000 a year, not included.)
Total cost of running the boat without opportunity cost - £15,000 pa, say,
13% of the capital cost of buying and commissioning to my standard.
Just multiply by 2 for $ . . . and fiddle with the capital values a bit,
'cos Europe is an expensive place at the moment.
Where did we go? that's all on my website . . .
--
JimB
Google 'jimb sail' or go www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com
Compares Cruise areas of Europe
"
druid
I'll give a bit of the "other side", since I feel my 36ft Catalina was
pretty economical.
Over 17 years, I did a number of replacements and upgrades, including
fridge, giant holding tank, electronics, sails, engine, roller-
furling... and let a few things "slide", like the upholstery. I'd say
the replacements and upgrades cost maybe $25K (including the new
engine). Spread over 17 years, that's about $1.5K/yr. I budgeted about
$600/yr (ok, make it $1K) for "normal maintenance" like annual
haulout, bottom paint, filters, fuel, etc. I bought her for $55K and
sold for $47K, so that's $8K depreciation.
Moorage is another story. Until the last few years, it was $2.5 - $3K /
yr. Last 3 years it jumped to over $4K (one reason I downsized!).
So what's that all add up to... (where's my calculator?) About $7K/yr
for everything. Not too bad, I'd say... (and you could get away with
less if you found cheaper moorage and didn't replace the engine!)
I'm guessing my Crown 28 will cost more like $4 -$6K/yr, depending on
whether I replace the engine. ;)
Paul Cassel
I'm guessing that stripped means it has reefer, hot / cold running /
pressure. Lacking only instruments and electronics. That's a guess.
I'd guess, based on my last boating experience (lived aboard until 2004)
that this would cost maybe $50k for an equivalent boat in fine shape
with these features. That's a lot more than the 10% you mentioned.
Now sure, you can get a decent boat such as a Cape Dory or Pearson in
about a 32' length for much less than $50k but it won't be in as good a
shape nor will it have modern features like the $140k boat in CW. My
first boat, which I mostly built and lived on for 6 years, didn't have a
reefer, or pressure or hot water. Somehow we managed to survive, but
times have changed. We also had NO radio or other electronics - even
VHF. We didn't miss it, but I can't see cruising around today w/o that.
-paul