I/O Winterizing Checklist
Skipper
process allows a better understand the machinery I occasionally
depend on in remote areas. Professional winterizing service can
be had for around $120 in most areas and that's not bad, or a bad
way to go. I am sure my method deletes some items the pros
include and includes items they omit. My method does allow winter
boating and the cost of re-winterizing is about 5 bucks & 15
minutes. The following methods work for me. Hope there is
something in them for you.
1- Clean & wax hull thoroughly
2- Fill gas tanks, and then add Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer to tanks.
Follow directions on Sta-Bil container. Yes, Wal-Mart carries
it.
3- Lower unit service:
A- Carefully inspect lower unit and prop for any damage:
1- Most prop damage is repairable. (take to prop shop for
repair if needed)
2- Cosmetic repair to skeg can be accomplished by using Grey
MarineTex ($6) or Aluminox ($6), and spray cans of primer &
paint from your local boat dealer (under $10 each).
The process is:
a- Sand by hand with medium grit paper to primer around nicks
using sanding block.
b- Clean surface.
c- Apply filler with ice cream stick & let dry overnight.
d- File and then sand with medium and fine sandpaper (wet or
dry) using sanding block.
e- Spray EOM primer per instructions on can & let dry.
f- Very light sanding to knock off any high spots, then clean
g- Spray EOM paint (light quick taps, always moving, very
light coverage) & let dry.
h- Very, very light sanding. Then clean
i- Spray light finish coat of EOM paint & let dry.
B- OEM lower unit oil change:
Purchase lower unit oil change kit (Wal-Mart, dealer, etc) &
follow included instructions. Dave Brown has an excellent
description of this process in his post 'The Winterizer Post'.
Remove prop if theft problem.
Every other year have dealer pull, inspect, relube, service, and
apply new seals. While you could do this, it's inexpensive
insurance against future problems and obtains a good second
opinion about the health of the drive.
3- Oil change & filter:
A- Warm engine to normal operating temperature using lower unit
earmuffs. Water flow from hose should be very low, as medium
flow will not allow engine to reach needed temperatures. Make
sure you do have some flow at all times. This 'flow check'
can be accomplished by using the Camco winterizing kit in pass
through mode.
B- When normal engine operating temperature is indicated on
temperature gauge, stop engine & water flow. Remove dipstick
and use manual or electric pump to extract oil into a safe
container. Take extra care to insure thin and hard dipstick
pump tube reaches the bottom of engine. Both manual & drill
motor pump kits can be found at most Wal-marts & dealers for
around $10. More expensive pump systems can easily be found,
but if patience and care are utilized, the inexpensive ones
will do just as good a job. Suggest taking old oil to service
station for disposal.
C- Remove old oil filter by putting H/D plastic garbage bag over
filter and another plastic trash sack under filter and spread
out to catch drips. Removing old filter with oil filter
wrench. Place old filter & bag in a safe place out of the
way. Then apply a thin coat of oil to new filter seal, wipe
filter fitting clean, and hand tighten new filter. Do not
overtighten.
D- Replace EOM engine oil using funnel (usually 5 or 6 quarts).
Use dipstick to verify fill level.
This is a good time to check tilt & trim reservoir, belts, hoses,
oil leaks, loose fittings or parts, & the overall cleanliness of
engine compartment. If something looks suspicious, repair or
replace it. Keep that engine compartment sparkling.
4- Freeze protecting engine:
Hoses become harder and more brittle with age. Disconnect and
reconnecting old hoses becomes very problematic when winterizing,
especially for older boats. For this reason, I use the Camco
winterizing kit available from most boat supply catalogs costing
about $30. The Camco kit really simplifies freeze protection of
the engine, and to my knowledge has never failed to fully protect
an engine when diligent care was taken with its usage. The Camco
kit uses 5 gallons of antifreeze. I use .99 cent RV antifreeze
available everywhere and have never had a problem. Total
recurring cost to freeze protect engine is about 5 bucks and less
than 15 minutes including warm-up time.
The procedure:
A- Pull flame arrester from carburetor. Re-warm engine to normal
operating temperature using antifreeze FILLED Camco container
sitting on swim platform or gunwale in bypass mode. Intake of
container is connected to water source and the output goes to
leg earmuffs. Hose pressure should be quite low to allow
engine to reach normal operating temperature. Continually
monitor the clear tubes that come with the Camco kit to insure
water is flowing to the engine and has not been stopped by a
faulty tap. Err on the side of caution when deciding when
proper temperature has been reached, the thermostat MUST be
open. When temperature gauge indicates normal engine
operating temperature and you are convinced that the
thermostat is open, turn the Camco bypass knob to shut off
water and allow antifreeze to drain to engine. Use the entire
5 Gallons. When you get down to the last gallon of
antifreeze start spraying the can of engine fogging oil into
carburetor intake. Try to keep engine RPM steady. Shut down
engine when Camco container is empty. You're engine is now
freeze protected.
5- Plumbing & Air Conditioning Systems:
These must be freeze protected. The procedure varies from boat to
boat and has been fully described in posts from Dave Brown, Peggy
Hall, and others in this forum. I would defer to the experts here.
6- Battery and cold sensitive boat items. Last step in winterizing
is removal of any cold sensitive items stored on the boat and
removal of the batteries. Best place for stored batteries is
heated indoor area where an occasional booster charge would be
convenient.
7- Storage tips:
A- Block trailer if temperatures reach freezing.
B- Winter store with leg down.
C- Use plastic trash bag with tie to protect lower unit.
D- Get good boat cover - annual purchase of cheap plastic tarps are
not cost effective.
E- Heated indoor boat storage is best during winter months. Don't
rule out non-traditional means such as farmers with large barns
or unused manufacturing facilities with adequate security
protection.
F- Protect that boat against entry of pests. Seal hull openings
--
Skipper
Marshfield Mass.
guidelines, I'd have many sleepless nights during hard freezes.
--
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
Skipper wrote in message <3613F4AC...@dtc.net>...
Skipper
>
> Steps 4 and 5 sound pretty scary to me Skipper. If I followed those
> guidelines, I'd have many sleepless nights during hard freezes.
No a real problem. In fact many professionals use the 'bucket method'
which is functionally equivalent. My research showed no case of freeze
damage with this method. Perhaps your search will fair better?
BTW, I did understand your original request would not be met with a
thank you. Just felt the information was important enough to post
inspite of your expective negative comments.
--
Skipper
Garry Heon
Nice imformative post, glad to see it Skip. I do have one question though,
would it not make more sense to dump the Sta-Bil in just before you fuel up?
This would allow the Sta-Bil to mix with the gas while the tank is filled.
You have to remember that most tanks have some kind of slosh protection
built in so the Sta-Bil may not mix while you trailer the boat home, or
run the boat home in my case. I've also used Sta-Bil brand for the last
20 years in every winterize/summerize job. I've never had a gummed carb,
great stuff.
> 2- Fill gas tanks, and then add Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer to tanks.
> Follow directions on Sta-Bil container. Yes, Wal-Mart carries
> it.
>
> C- Use plastic trash bag with tie to protect lower unit.
This I disagree with, maybe. Every time I've seen something wrapped
in plastic it rusts/rots. I most cases the plastic just traps in moisture.
Now for the maybe, most drives sit in the water for 6 - 8 months a year
anyway so would the moisture be a problem.
Garry Heon
Skipper
> Nice imformative post, glad to see it Skip. I do have one question
> though, would it not make more sense to dump the Sta-Bil in just
> before you fuel up? This would allow the Sta-Bil to mix with the gas
> while the tank is filled. You have to remember that most tanks have
> some kind of slosh protection built in so the Sta-Bil may not mix
> while you trailer the boat home, or run the boat home in my case.
> I've also used Sta-Bil brand for the last 20 years in every
> winterize/summerize job. I've never had a gummed carb, great stuff.
Thanks for the tip!!! It really does makes sense.
> > C- Use plastic trash bag with tie to protect lower unit.
> This I disagree with, maybe. Every time I've seen something wrapped
> in plastic it rusts/rots. I most cases the plastic just traps in
> moisture.
> Now for the maybe, most drives sit in the water for 6 - 8 months a
> year anyway so would the moisture be a problem.
Forgot to include that bag should have a 1/2" hole cut in its bottom
corner for moisture (rain, snow, condensation) drainage. This was
covered in a NG thread a couple years ago. I've had nothing but positive
experiences with this method. However, can't fault your caution.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Just for you Skipper,...
> Thank you, Skipper. Your post was most informative.
> --
> Jim Clark
> Custom Yacht Services
As was yours. I can only hope you work hard to put together an
informative post in the future for flamers to devour. Your a class act!
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Just for you Skipper,
> Thank you, Skipper. Your post was most informative.
As was your webpage:
"Custom Yacht Service"
"Have tools will travel"
"Don't be left out in the cold. Schedule winterizing services NOW!"
"Since 1988 Jim Clark ( DBA Custom Yacht Services) has been dedicated to
providing the best possible repair and maintenance service to boaters on
the South Shore of Boston. My philosophy is simple. Make proper repairs.
Do them quickly, and at a fair price. I specialize in Mercruiser engine
and stern drive repairs, but, work on other makes as well. I do
electrical, electronic, sanitation system, and hardware installations. I
am not equipped to service outboards.
Protecting turf, huh? Business must be bad.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> What kind of antifreeze can you buy for 99 cents? windshield wiper
> antifreeze?
You are correct. The last RV antifreeze I used was 3 bucks a gallon.
three times five gallons is $15 bucks. Sorry for the error.
That said, I would be interested in what you charge to winterize? Please
advise where your services differ from the listed items in my post.
...And, have you found a case of engine damage from the bucket method?
--
Skipper
Marshfield Mass.
Here are my concerns,
1. You are afraid to remove hoses because they are hard and brittle.
Don't you think it might be a good idea to replace said hoses?
2. What kind of antifreeze can you buy for 99 cents? windshield
wiper antifreeze?
3. How can you be sure running 5 gallons of antifreeze up the water
pickup will displace any or all the water in the engine? I suspect
most of it will just go out the exhaust without even entering the
engine, even with the thermostat fully open.
4. With just 1 gallon of water left in the jug, that doesn't leave
much time to properly fog the engine before your 99 cent anti freeze
runs out.
5. Many professionals use the bucket or Camco method? Well, many
professionals prefer to use more certain methods and better products
to freeze protect and corrosion protect raw water cooled engines.
6. Thank you, Skipper. Your post was most informative.
--
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
Skipper wrote in message <361412D7...@dtc.net>...
>Marshfield Mass. wrote:
>>
>> Steps 4 and 5 sound pretty scary to me Skipper. If I followed
those
>> guidelines, I'd have many sleepless nights during hard freezes.
>
Bad Penny
of squirts in each spark plug hole. Once I hit all 8 with the "clean"
oil I turn the starter for a few rotations. This allows the intake
water pumps to clear while circulating the oil. The transmission
fluid keeps the cylinders damp with clean oil during the winter which
deters rust or just dry metal. I have nearly 2,000 hours on the
engines and they start the minute I hit the key. Clearly this isn't
the entire secret, but I believe it has attributed to the life.
Richard Eriksson
>
> Marshfield Mass. wrote:
>
>
> > Thank you, Skipper. Your post was most informative.
>
> > Jim Clark
> > Custom Yacht Services
>
> informative post in the future for flamers to devour. Your a class act!
>
> --
> Skipper
Skipper, your post contained many common sense items to address, but
the method you describe for putting anti-freeze in the engine block
would leave me pretty nervous also. Considering the investment I have
made in my boats, I think having them professionally winterized is a
small price to pay for peace of mind. Experimenting as a backyard
mechanic can be an expensive education.
Dick Eriksson
Marshfield Mass.
Please bring your boat to me. I would then be happy to quote you a
price to winterize your boat and replace rotted hoses and whatever
else you need. Please reply by email.
--
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
Terry
with mechanical ability and those without. Those without probably should
stay away form doing their own work anyway. Those with will understand the
logic behind what you are recommending and be able to deal with any minor
differences based on model or type.
I have been boating for about 30 years with many different types of boats in
many different climates (read I move a lot). I have always done my own work
and never had a bad experience. In fact I have seen just the opposite where
friends have had their service done professionally (that only implies they
paid someone to do it) and had problems. Not that this is the norm (I'm not
picking on professional service folks) but you do want to deal with someone
reputable. In the DC/MD/VA area there are mobile winterizing companies that
come to you to do the work who may or may not do a good job. Some are fly by
night out for a fast buck. Even if you don't do your own work, use Skipper
and Dave's routines as a guide for what your professional should do. Be
careful!
A couple of other comments on things I have always done in winterizing. One
is to spray down all metal parts in the engine compartment, including the
engine, with a protectant like WD40 (the non-flammable version is
preferred). I also spray all electrical connections and ignition wires with
a spray waterproofing (available from many auto and marine parts sources
including Mercruiser). Purely preventative maintenance. I didn't notice
any mention of lubing all grease fittings in the process. Another important
step. Finally, ventilation... Since my boat stays under a cover, I open all
the hatches and compartments to allow everything to breath. I pull the
drain plug (obviously land stored) and leave it out but put a little wad of
coarse steel wool in the home to prevent rodent entry. You would be amazed
at how small a hole a mouse can get through and how much damage they can do.
Again, thanks Skipper and Dave for the posting the information!
Skipper wrote in message <3613F4AC...@dtc.net>...
Skipper
> Skipper, your post contained many common sense items to address, but
> the method you describe for putting anti-freeze in the engine block
> would leave me pretty nervous also. Considering the investment I have
> made in my boats, I think having them professionally winterized is a
> small price to pay for peace of mind. Experimenting as a backyard
> mechanic can be an expensive education.
Cannot argue with your choice to utilize the skills of professionals at
winterizing time. The 'bucket' method is not for everyone. However,
considering the broad range of characters that call themselves pros,
that course is not without risk.
I do know this; Camco, West Marine, BBB, several marinas, and many
individuals I checked with before adopting this method all said "no
problems or complaints". The chill factor for the area I winterize for
gets as low as -100 degrees in the winter. I have never had a problem
with this method, and it does allow winter boating & remote
winterization BEFORE returning to the frozen north. The process is very
simple. You just fill the container with antifreeze & go. When you've
finished boating, simply pull the boat and find a water tap. Wash down
the hull & trailer. The Camco system flushes raw water as engine gets
to operating temperature and is then replaced by antifreeze. All in
about 15 minutes. Winter boating is great!
Have you ever heard of a real problem or complaint from a user of the
'bucket' method? That is, other than from Rip 'n Dip winterizing
mechanics who view the method as a rice bowl issue? Remember, these are
the guys who poor automotive antifreeze in your engine cooling system
and tell you it's ready to launch in the spring. Ripping hoses and
finding hidden drain plugs IS problematic, even for the pros. Are you
SURE they didn't forget "just one"?
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Please bring your boat to me. I would then be happy to quote you a
> price to winterize your boat and replace rotted hoses and whatever
> else you need. Please reply by email.
High Mass,
Ah, but your webpage stated "have tools will travel". May I inquire
about your average price for single engine Mercruiser winterization
before telling you where to go?
Your friend,
--
Skipper
Skipper
>
> Nice post, thanks! I think the responses will be easily separated by
> those with mechanical ability and those without. Those without
> probably should stay away form doing their own work anyway. Those
> with will understand the logic behind what you are recommending and be
> able to deal with any minor differences based on model or type.
>
> I have been boating for about 30 years with many different types of
> boats in many different climates (read I move a lot). I have always
> done my own work and never had a bad experience. In fact I have seen
> just the opposite where friends have had their service done
> professionally (that only implies they paid someone to do it) and had
> A couple of other comments on things I have always done in
> winterizing. One is to spray down all metal parts in the engine
> compartment, including the engine, with a protectant like WD40 (the
> non-flammable version is preferred). I also spray all electrical
> connections and ignition wires with a spray waterproofing (available
> from many auto and marine parts sources including Mercruiser). Purely
> preventative maintenance. I didn't notice any mention of lubing all
> grease fittings in the process. Another important step. Finally,
> ventilation... Since my boat stays under a cover, I open all the
> hatches and compartments to allow everything to breath. I pull the
> drain plug (obviously land stored) and leave it out but put a little
> wad of coarse steel wool in the home to prevent rodent entry. You
> would be amazed at how small a hole a mouse can get through and how
> much damage they can do.
Hi Terry,
Thanks for the thanks! You are so right with your suggestions. I do
the same things when winterizing but forgot to include them in the post.
My 'Checklist' post is incomplete without inclusion of your tips.
--
Skipper
George Jefferson
:You are correct. The last RV antifreeze I used was 3 bucks a gallon.
:three times five gallons is $15 bucks. Sorry for the error.
pre-mixed anti freeze is not economical if thats what you mean.
I have given up on the rv stuff (propelyne gly) for the engines for
two reasons. If you under-dilute it it is extremely viscous, doesn't
pump well and you risk overheating the engine. If you over-dilute
it it is very hard to tell -- its specific gravity is nearly the same
as water so there is no easy way to test your level of freeze protection.
We use regular automotive antifreeze, carfully catch all the discharge
and as a final step verify the discharge mixture with a sg tester.
--
george jefferson : geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
to reply simply press "r"
-- I hate editing addresses more than I hate the spam!
Dave Brown
> I do know this; Camco, West Marine, BBB, several marinas, and many
> individuals I checked with before adopting this method all said "no
> problems or complaints". The chill factor for the area I winterize for
> gets as low as -100 degrees in the winter. I have never had a problem
> with this method, and it does allow winter boating & remote
This would be an important time to point out that 'wind chill' is a term
used to describe the effect on human skin in a wind. I'm told (by those
scientific types who know such things) that to an engine block, the actual
temperature is what matters. Where I live, we touch -35 deg C and since I've
got over 100 of these babies stored in my care, I'd better have a high
confidence factor in the method I choose (whatever it is).
> Have you ever heard of a real problem or complaint from a user of the
> 'bucket' method? That is, other than from Rip 'n Dip winterizing
> mechanics who view the method as a rice bowl issue? Remember, these are
> the guys who poor automotive antifreeze in your engine cooling system
> and tell you it's ready to launch in the spring.
Uh oh, we're approaching a line neither of us wants to see you cross.
> Ripping hoses and
> finding hidden drain plugs IS problematic, even for the pros. Are you
> SURE they didn't forget "just one"?
I guarantee it.
--
Regards,
Dave Brown
Brown's Marina
http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/
Dave Brown
Why transmission oil, instead of engine oil? For that matter, why not
storage fogging oil as recommended from all OEM's?
Dave Brown
> A couple of other comments on things I have always done in winterizing. One
> is to spray down all metal parts in the engine compartment, including the
> engine, with a protectant like WD40 (the non-flammable version is
> preferred).
If I might pipe in here, WD-40's prime directive is to displace water (WD =
Water Displacing). A secondary benefit is that it also works as a pentrating
oil. It does a good job for what it was designed to do. It is not, however, a
good choice as a protectant as it evaporates and leaves nothing behind to coat.
(the reason that hinge you sprayed with WD starts squeaking again in short
order).
That being said, there are many parts that will do what you want, but unless
you're in salt water, leave the engine be.
Marshfield Mass.
>High Mass,
>
>Ah, but your webpage stated "have tools will travel". May I
inquire
>about your average price for single engine Mercruiser winterization
>before telling you where to go?
>
>Your friend,
>
>--
>Skipper
For you, Skipper, a very special price. $3000 + expenses. I can't
wait to find out where you want me to go. :-)) You'll have to email
though, It's filter time, or Miller time, or something like that.
Skipper
> I have given up on the rv stuff (propelyne gly) for the engines for
> two reasons. If you under-dilute it it is extremely viscous, doesn't
> pump well and you risk overheating the engine. If you over-dilute
> it it is very hard to tell -- its specific gravity is nearly the same
> as water so there is no easy way to test your level of freeze
> protection.
> We use regular automotive antifreeze, carfully catch all the discharge
> and as a final step verify the discharge mixture with a sg tester.
I went the other way, using regular antifreeze for many years. Was told
by other boaters whom I respected that RV antifreeze would do the job. I
declined for years thinking the 'real' stuff provided better protection
with its rust preventing additives.
Finally tried the RV stuff and have had no problems with it. The cost
difference is insignificant. If I had doubts about the RV stuff I'd use
the 'real' stuff also.
--
Skipper
Richard Eriksson
>
>
> This would be an important time to point out that 'wind chill' is a term
> used to describe the effect on human skin in a wind. I'm told (by those
> scientific types who know such things) that to an engine block, the actual
> temperature is what matters.
Beat me to it, I was ready to jump on the wind chill thing.
Wind chill is due to the evaporation of water on the skin.
(We sweat even in the winter). Wind increases the evaporation rate.
When water evaporates, it gives off heat (called latent heat of
evaporation) and results in the skin being cooled. There are some
cheap water evaporator "coolers" advertised as air conditioners
that operate on this principle. Anyway, the boat motor is at air
temperature, not wind chill "effective" temperature.
DE
Skipper
> Skipper wrote:
> > Have you ever heard of a real problem or complaint from a user of
> > the 'bucket' method? That is, other than from Rip 'n Dip
> > winterizing mechanics who view the method as a rice bowl issue?
> > Remember, these are the guys who poor automotive antifreeze in your
> > engine cooling system and tell you it's ready to launch in the
> > spring.
> Uh oh, we're approaching a line neither of us wants to see you cross.
Uh oh, you are so right!!! Was not thinking of you when I wrote those
statements. Unfortunately, many of us have had dealings with marine
mechanics who will never quite reach your standards. It ain't a black 'n
white world out there.
Kinda reminds me of the old saw; When you find a good mechanic, treat
him very well indeed.
Sincere appologies!
--
Skipper
Garry Heon
snip
>
> Finally tried the RV stuff and have had no problems with it. The cost
> difference is insignificant. If I had doubts about the RV stuff I'd use
> the 'real' stuff also.
Around here I find the opposite. I can go down to my local Napa store
and buy some friendly Sierra anitfreeze mix it down with water and get the
same freeze protection as the RV stuff for less $$$.
Garry Heon
Dave Brown
> I had a bad experience with "professional" mechanics very early on in
> my driving career and haven't fully trusted one since. I'd rather 'do
> it myself' and know it was really done than take a chance on some
> shop. I learned I can buy a lot of special tols and equipment for what
> the pros charge for labor. At least that's my opinion.
And will you be doing you're own surgery in the future as well? ;-)
Dave Brown
> > Uh oh, we're approaching a line neither of us wants to see you cross.
>
> Uh oh, you are so right!!! Was not thinking of you when I wrote those
> statements. Unfortunately, many of us have had dealings with marine
> mechanics who will never quite reach your standards. It ain't a black 'n
> white world out there.
> Kinda reminds me of the old saw; When you find a good mechanic, treat
> him very well indeed.
> Sincere appologies!
Hey, we're back to getting along! ;-)
Now you and Harry kiss and make up too, OK? <BG>
Marcus G Bell
> > I had a bad experience with "professional" mechanics very early on in
> > my driving career and haven't fully trusted one since. I'd rather 'do
> > it myself' and know it was really done than take a chance on some
> > shop. I learned I can buy a lot of special tols and equipment for what
> > the pros charge for labor. At least that's my opinion.
Dave Brown (da...@brownsmarina.on.ca) wrote:
> And will you be doing you're own surgery in the future as well? ;-)
There's a joke whose punchline is "I take it he's you're only child"
which would fit in here.
--
--
Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
Pete Gordley
were and idiot, you told him that you were much more educated than what he
thought. hehe. I just had to tell you that it is nice to see someone getting
flamed that turns the table. Doubt Dave will have much more to say. hehe.
Fan dang tastic!!!
Dave Brown
> he he he !!! That is great, Big Jim. When Dave Brown same as told you you
> were and idiot,
I did no such thing. Please re-read my original post and note the ';-)' at the
end. It grieves me to no end that people are unable to separate the humourous
posts from the serious ones when there is clear indication as to which way it
was meant to go.
> you told him that you were much more educated than what he
> thought. hehe. I just had to tell you that it is nice to see someone getting
> flamed that turns the table. Doubt Dave will have much more to say. hehe.
> Fan dang tastic!!!
For those new to Usenet like Pete, there are acronyms and 'emoticons' which help
convey in text, what would normally be seen or heard in tone during an oral
converstaion.
For example, when using sarcasm (where it isn't obvious) or making a subtle
joke, I usually use a 'smiley' incorporating a semi-colon (instead of a colon)
to denote a wink. eg -----> ;-)
A regular smiley is indicated by a :-), whereas you can show a stern look by
furrowing the brow on the smiley like so ------> >:-|
All of the above are referred to as 'emoticons' (emotion/icon).
As for acronyms, there are a few standards that people use that you should be
aware of. The most common I recall right now are:
AFAIK (as far as I know)
BTW (by the way)
LOL (laugh out loud)
ROTFLMAO (rolling on the floor laughing my ass off)
And of course, marine specific terms such as:
WOT (wide open throttle)
TDC (top dead centre)
BTDC (before TDC)
RPM (revolutions per minute)
If in doubt, and you want to make sure your post is taken as intended, you can
always enclose a description inside brackets.
<running and ducking>
<g> or <grin>
<BG> or <BIG GRIN>
<sadistic smile>
etc.
I'm convinced many a flame war starts from a simple misunderstanding, and
keeping an eye out for such indicators would go a long way to alieviating
unnecessary tension.
I've got a list of hundreds somewhere in my archives, but I think this gives a
good start. Anybody want to add the the list of basics?
--
Regards,
Dave Brown
Marshfield Mass.
Would you consider searching for your list and posting it. I,
for one, would be most grateful. ;-) :-)
--
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
Dave Brown wrote in message
<3617B7B0...@brownsmarina.on.ca>...
Alan Fossum
>Skipper
I have a question about winterizing. I will be doing this for the
first time next weekend. I have a 1976 Slickcraft with OMC stringer
out drive. The engine is a 351 ford.
How do I hook up the garden hose to the outdrive when warming up the
motor? On the old stringer outdrives I don't believe ear muffs will
work. Thanks Al
Marshfield Mass.
and screw on a female/female garden hose adapter so that you can
attach your garden hose.
If there is no such fitting on your stringer, you need to purchase
one from your OMC dealer.
--
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
(stuff deleted)
Skipper
> There should be a cap on the stbd. pivot end cover. Remove the cap
> and screw on a female/female garden hose adapter so that you can
> attach your garden hose.
Alternately, the Camco clear plastic tubing with male connector goes to
this fitting and the garden hose goes to the Camco kit intake fitting.
--
Skipper
Richard Eriksson
>
> he he he !!! That is great, Big Jim. When Dave Brown same as told you you
> thought. hehe. I just had to tell you that it is nice to see someone getting
> flamed that turns the table. Doubt Dave will have much more to say. hehe.
> Fan dang tastic!!!
... and now a word from our sponsors ....
Dave Brown
> Well Dave,
> Would you consider searching for your list and posting it. I, for
> one, would be most grateful. ;-) :-)
My pleasure Jim. It took some digging into the archives of my Warp
machine (a nostolgic one at that). Many are good for a chuckle. :-) I
don't know if I ever kept the emoticon list, but I know there's an
Internet site out there for those with some time to kill.
AAMOF = as a matter of fact
ADN = any day now
AFAICS = as far as I can see
AFAIK = as far as I know
AISI = as I see it
ALTERNATIVE = form is
AS On Another Subject
ATSL Along The Same Line
AWGTHTGTATA? = are we going to have to go through all this again?
AWGTHTGTTA? = are we going to have to go through this again?
BBFN = bye bye for now
BBS = bulletin board system
BCNU Be seeing you ....
BIOYIOP = blow it out your input output port
BNF = big name fan
BOT = back on topic
BRB = be right back (generally used on chat systems)
BTA = but then again
BTW = by the way
BYKT = but you knew that
BYKTA = but you knew that already
CC = conference coordinator
CH = conference host
CMIIW = correct me if i'm wrong
CU = see you
CUL = catch/see you later
CUL8R See You Later...
CWYL = chat with you later
CYL = catch/see you later
DIIK = damned if I know
DNPM = darn near p***ed myself
EOD = end of discussion
EOL = end of lecture
ESOSL = endless snorts of stupid laughter
EMFBI = Excuse me for butting in
FDROTFL = falling down rolling on the floor laughing
FITB = fill in the blank
FOTCL = falling off the chair laughing
FTASB = faster than a speeding bullet
FUBAR = f***** up beyond all reconigition
FUBB = f***** up beyond belief
FWIW = for what it's worth
FYI = for your information
GD&R = grin(ning), duck(ing) & run(ning)
GIWIST = gee, I wish i'd said that
GOK = god only knows
GROK = understand
HHO1/2K = ha ha only half kidding
HHOK = ha ha only kidding
HTH = hope this helps
IAC = in any case
IANAL = I am not a lawyer
IC = I see
IITYWYBAD = if I tell you, will you buy another drink
IITYWYBMAB = if I tell you, will you buy me a beer
ILSHIBAMF = I laughed so hard I broke all my furniture
IMCDO = in my conceited dogmatic opinion.
IMHO = in my humble opinion
IMNSHO = in my not so humble opinion
IMNSHO = in my opinion
INPO = in no particular order
IOW = in other words
JFYI = just for your information
JSNM = just stark naked magic
KCBIWIYWI = keep coming back, it works if you work it
L8R = later
LAB&TYD = life's a bitch and then you die
LLTA = lots and lots of thunderous/thundering applause
LMAO = laughing my a** off
LOL = laughing out loud
LTIP = laughing till I puke
MUNG = mash until no good
MYOB = mind your own business
NICBDAT = nothing is certain but death and taxes
NIMBY = not in my backyard
NIMTO = not in my term of office
NPLU = not people like us
NQOS = not quite our sort
OATUS = on a totally unrelated subject
OAUS = on an unrelated subject
OIC = oh, I see
ONNA = oh no, not again
ONNTA = oh no, not this again
OOTC = obligatory on-topic comment
OTOH = on the other hand
OTOOH = on the other other hand
OTW = on the whole
OWTTE = or words to that effect
PGY = post graduate year pgy-1, pgy-2 etc. used in pgy med.
PITA = pain in the arse
PMETC = pardon me etc.
POV = point of view
PPP = petty pet peeve
R/O = receiver/read only
RIME = relaynet (tm) international message exchange
ROTFL = ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING
ROFL = rolling on floor laughing
ROFLAHMSL = rolling on floor laughing and holding my sides laughing
ROFLASTC = rolling on floor laughing and scaring the cat
ROFLGO = rolling on floor laughing guts out
ROTBA = reality on the blink again
ROTFL = rolling on the floor laughing
ROTFLMAAOBPO = rolling on the floor laughing my a** and other body parts
off
ROTM = right on the money
RSN = real soon now
RTFM = read the "fine" manual
RTFM = read the f**king manual
RTFMA = read the manual, sir (from the military)
SC = steering committee
SICS = sitting in chair snickering
SIG = special interest group
SNAFU = situation normal all f***** up
SOI = stunk on ice
SWAG = simple wild a** guess
SYSOP = system operator
SYT = sweet young thing
TANJ = there ain't no justice (niven)
TANSTAAFL = there ain't no such thing as a free lunch (heinlein)
TGAL = think globally, act locally
TIC = tongue in cheek
TINALO = this is not a legal opinion
TINAR = this is not a recommendation
TINWIS = that is not what I said
TIWTGLGG = this is where the goofy little grin goes
TJATAW = truth, justice, and the american way
TLA = three letter acronym
TPTB = the powers that be
TRDMC = tears running down my cheeks
TTBOMK = to the best of my knowledge
TTFN = ta ta for now
TTMS = talk/type to me soon
TTUL = talk/type to you later
TTYL = talk/type to you later
TTYLA = talk/type to you later, alligator
TWOK = the wrath of kahn (star trek 2)
TYVM = thank you very much
WAMKSAM = why are my kids/kitties staring at me?
WDYMBT = what do/did you mean by that?
WIBAMU = well i'll be a monkey's uncle
WMMOWS = wash my mouth out with soap
WTH = what the heck
WYLABOCTGWTR = would you like a bowl of cream to go with that remark?
WYLASOMWTC = would you like a saucer of milk with that comment?
WYSBYGI = what you see before you get it
WYSIWYG = what you see is what
WYSIWYG = what you see is what you get
YAOTM = yet another off-topic message
YAP = yet another ploy
YASQ = yet another stupid question
YATI = yet another trek inconsistancy
YMMV = your mileage may vary
FITB Fill In The Blank....
FYI For Your Information
FUBAR Fouled Up Beyond All Repair
FWIW For What Its Worth
FYI For Your Information
GD&R Grinning, Ducking & Running (usually left at the
end of a mean or digging message)
GROK As in "I GROK" means thorough understanding. From
Heinlein)
GIWIST Gee I Wish I'd Said That
HHTYAY Happy Holidays to You and Yours
IANAL I Am Not A Lawyer
IC I See
IITYWISWYBMAD If I Tell You What It Says, Will You Buy Me A
drink
IMCO In My Considered Opinion
IMHO In My Humble or Honest Opinion
IMNSHO In My Not So Humble Opinion
IOW In Other Words
ISBAB I Should have Bought A Book
ITSFWI If The Shoe Fits, Wear It
KHYF Know How You Feel
L8R Later...
LOL Laughing Out Loud
LTNT Long Time, No Type
NTYMI Now that you mention it
OIC Oh, I See...
OOTQ Out of the question
OTOH On The Other Hand
OTTOMH Off the top of my head
PMJI Pardon my jumping in
POV Point Of View
PPTSPAHS Please Pass The Salt, Pepper And Hot Sauce...used
when I've had to eat crow, my hat, and other
unsavory dishes
ROTF Rolling On The Floor
ROTFL Rolling On The Floor Laughing
SNAMU Situation Normal, All messed Up
SOW Speaking of which
RSN Real Soon Now
RTM Read The Manual
SYSOP System Operator
TANJ There Ain't No Justice
TANSTAAFL There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
(From the S.F. novel "The Earth is a
Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein
TAANSTASQ There ain't no such thing as a stupid question
TFTHAOT Thanx For The Help Ahead Of Time...used
for a favor requested, or an answer or help that
there's no doubt will come, but I want to make
sure the person knows I appreciate their taking their
time to do it.
TPTB The Powers That Be
TOBAL There Oughta Be A Law
TOBG This Oughta Be Good
TTBOMK To The Best Of My Knowledge
TTFN Ta Ta For Now
TTUL (TTYL) Talk To You Later
YGLT You're Gonna Love This ...
YKYARW You Know You're A Redneck When==
WYSIWYG What You See Is What You Get
HAGO Have A Good One
Dave Brown
> There should be a cap on the stbd. pivot end cover. Remove the cap
> and screw on a female/female garden hose adapter so that you can
> attach your garden hose.
> If there is no such fitting on your stringer, you need to purchase
> one from your OMC dealer.
This is another one of those options that were installed almost
exclusively in salt water use areas. I can't recall the last time I saw
one in fresh water and would be surprized if OMC still sells them (these
parts seem to be going extinct rapidly lately). This motor might be a
good candidate for the method I outlined if only to be sure the wtaer
pump was also filled with anti-freeze as these pumps trap water and
freeze over the winter.
My two cents...
Michael J Porter
Dave Brown <da...@brownsmarina.on.ca> wrote:
=>Skipper wrote:
=>
=>> I do know this; Camco, West Marine, BBB, several marinas, and many
=>> individuals I checked with before adopting this method all said "no
=>> problems or complaints". The chill factor for the area I winterize for
=>> gets as low as -100 degrees in the winter. I have never had a problem
=>> with this method, and it does allow winter boating & remote
=>
=>This would be an important time to point out that 'wind chill' is a term
=>used to describe the effect on human skin in a wind. I'm told (by those
=>scientific types who know such things) that to an engine block, the actual
=>temperature is what matters. Where I live, we touch -35 deg C and since I've
=>got over 100 of these babies stored in my care, I'd better have a high
=>confidence factor in the method I choose (whatever it is).
=>
=>> Have you ever heard of a real problem or complaint from a user of the
=>> 'bucket' method? That is, other than from Rip 'n Dip winterizing
=>> mechanics who view the method as a rice bowl issue? Remember, these are
=>> the guys who poor automotive antifreeze in your engine cooling system
=>> and tell you it's ready to launch in the spring.
=>
=>Uh oh, we're approaching a line neither of us wants to see you cross.
=>
=>> Ripping hoses and
=>> finding hidden drain plugs IS problematic, even for the pros. Are you
=>> SURE they didn't forget "just one"?
=>
=>I guarantee it.
=>
=>--
=>Regards,
=>
=> Dave Brown
=> Brown's Marina
=> http://www.brownsmarina.on.ca/
=>
=>
And if you are doing this yourself, you have a service manual and
can presumably count. What is the "bucket method" I keep hearing
about?
Mike
Marshfield Mass.
have to put the boat in the water to change oil and fog the engine.
And I echo your recommendations for engine protection. I don't see
any other good way to do it.
Although I saw one marina using a system like Ol Skipper uses.
The difference was they used what looked like a 100 gallon tank that
also recovered the exhaust water. They kept monitoring the mixture
and added antifreeze as necessary. They ran the engine long enough
to be sure they had replaced all the water with a good antifreeze
mix. The only drawback's I can see are the water becomes more
contaminated as you move from boat to boat, and by not opening the
drains, you aren't removing the rust and crud that settles behind
the drain plugs, and the hoses probably aren't getting inspected,
And if your at a salt water location you should flush with fresh
water first, and it probably doesn't save any time. Aw shit! This
method isn't any good either.
You've been winterizing boats for 20 years or so. Why haven't
you come up with a better way to do it? ;-)
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
Dave Brown wrote in message
<36181DA6...@brownsmarina.on.ca>...
Skipper
> Although I saw one marina using a system like Ol Skipper uses.
> The difference was they used what looked like a 100 gallon tank that
> also recovered the exhaust water. They kept monitoring the mixture
> and added antifreeze as necessary. They ran the engine long enough
> to be sure they had replaced all the water with a good antifreeze
> mix. The only drawback's I can see are the water becomes more
> contaminated as you move from boat to boat, and by not opening the
> drains, you aren't removing the rust and crud that settles behind
> the drain plugs, and the hoses probably aren't getting inspected,
> And if your at a salt water location you should flush with fresh
> water first, and it probably doesn't save any time. Aw shit! This
> method isn't any good either.
The original post was written to show NG readers contemplating their
first self-winterization that the process was actually quite simple and
safe using the Camco kit. The engine freeze protection procedure
basically involved connecting a water hose and then turning a knob.
Skills that most folks wouldn't find too challenging. The described oil
change procedure was also very simple. These procedures are not for all.
And many who understand the procedure still prefer to pay a mechanic to
accomplish this work. Different strokes!
Your statements about rust, crud, & saltwater are scary, but don't
square with my experience with raw water cooling systems. If you know of
a varifiable service problem caused by someones use of the Camco
winterizing kit, please inform us all.
--
Skipper
Peter W. Meek
You attribute a few of these to people, so I thought I'd
add an attribution and a possible addition/correction.
>RSN = real soon now
First saw this in Jerry Pournelle's column in BYTE
magazine -- long before I saw it online. Not saying
he didn't get it from elsewhere, but I've been a
heavy reader in computing from long before he began
writing that column. Generally used in a *very*
sarcastic sense, as in cases where delivery promises
have been broken repeatedly.
>TINAR = this is not a recommendation
I first began seeing this in the conferences on the
BIX (Byte Information eXchange), an early online
service that used to be a part of Byte Magazine's
services. BIX was considered to be a part of Byte's
publishing efforts, so subscribers were prohibited
from "publishing" unauthorized "reviews" of products
in the conferences. Thus all comments on commercial
products by subscribers came to include the wry remark
that "This is not a review," which quickly began to
be abbreviated as "TINAR". BTW, BIX is still in
existence, and mainly populated by people with a
*very* high level of computer expertise. No longer
a part of Byte Mag, though.
--
--Pete
pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
rec.boats caps at:
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/cap-main.html
Alan Fossum
>This is another one of those options that were installed almost
>exclusively in salt water use areas. I can't recall the last time I saw
>one in fresh water and would be surprized if OMC still sells them (these
>parts seem to be going extinct rapidly lately). This motor might be a
>good candidate for the method I outlined if only to be sure the wtaer
>pump was also filled with anti-freeze as these pumps trap water and
>freeze over the winter.
>
>My two cents...
>
Hello Dave, I printed out you winterizing post and will have to go
through it again. (I'm the guy that asked the question about stringer
drives and hooking up cooling).
I did the winterizing last year with the old owners of the boat. They
just pulled the petcocks and then installed rv anti freeze. I plan on
following your recommendations this season.
Will be going up to lake superior this weekend for a couple of dives
then trailering home to winterize.
What do you think of shrink wrap????????????
Al
Dave Brown
> Will be going up to lake superior this weekend for a couple of dives
> then trailering home to winterize.
> What do you think of shrink wrap????????????
I'm a reluctant convert. For most people, it's more economical to build a
frame and buy a good quality tarp that will last for years (all my large
boats are done this way). But for the 16-18 foot boats that won't fit in
buildings this year, it's a quick and dirty option to get me by until I can
put up more buildings. I have experienced-based concerns about the moisture
levels in boats that are shrink-wrapped and would caution anyone using it to
make sure the boat can breathe (a couple of stick-on vents won't do it). I
overcome this by wrapping the boat with the motor in the tilted position thus
allowing the enitre back end to be vented, and still prevent rain/snow from
getting in.
Allen Perrins
Shrink wrap is NOT recommended for boats which have been
coated
with AwlGrip, Imron, or any paint. Moisture trapped between
hull and
wrap causes damage to paint !
Al
Dave Brown <da...@brownsmarina.on.ca> wrote in article
<36197485...@brownsmarina.on.ca>...
Mark Lenox
Dave Brown wrote:
> I'm a reluctant convert. For most people, it's more economical to build a
> frame and buy a good quality tarp that will last for years (all my large
> boats are done this way). But for the 16-18 foot boats that won't fit in
> buildings this year, it's a quick and dirty option to get me by until I can
> put up more buildings. I have experienced-based concerns about the moisture
> levels in boats that are shrink-wrapped and would caution anyone using it to
> make sure the boat can breathe (a couple of stick-on vents won't do it). I
> overcome this by wrapping the boat with the motor in the tilted position thus
> allowing the enitre back end to be vented, and still prevent rain/snow from
> getting in.
Aren't there solar powered ventilators that are reuseable and can be stuck on the
shrink wrap? I would think that powered ventilation of this type would be
sufficient to keep things dry.
Mark Lenox
Peter W. Meek
>Wind chill is due to the evaporation of water on the skin.
>(We sweat even in the winter). Wind increases the evaporation rate.
>When water evaporates, it gives off heat (called latent heat of
>evaporation) and results in the skin being cooled.
The original wind-chill tables were done with water-filled
balloons in Antarctica. No evaporation there. The effect is
of blowing away the warm layer of air that sits on the surface
of the skin in still air, and replacing it with fresh, cold
air. The cooling is simple conductance from skin to air.
BTW, it is accepted that the original tables have serious
defects, but they are still what is used by the various
weather services as far as I know.
Marcus G Bell
> The original wind-chill tables were done with water-filled
> balloons in Antarctica. No evaporation there. The effect is
> of blowing away the warm layer of air that sits on the surface
> of the skin in still air, and replacing it with fresh, cold
> air. The cooling is simple conductance from skin to air.
> BTW, it is accepted that the original tables have serious
> defects, but they are still what is used by the various
> weather services as far as I know.
Interesting stuff about how wind chill factor is measured. A lifeform
whose body temperature is higher than air temperature might perceive a
windy day at 30 to feel like a still day at 0 because the insulating
layer of air is exchanging with cold air, but that doesn't mean that
if the lifeform were to stop producing heat that it would drop to
0. An object can't get colder than the air temperature, unless it can
give off energy to evaporation or something else. So, all in all,
windchill factor is of monor relevance when discussing freezing point
protection of an engine cooling system.
Richard C. Eriksson
>
> On Fri, 02 Oct 1998 18:12:59 -0400, Richard Eriksson <re...@vptec.com> wrote:
>
> >Wind chill is due to the evaporation of water on the skin.
> >(We sweat even in the winter). Wind increases the evaporation rate.
> >When water evaporates, it gives off heat (called latent heat of
> >evaporation) and results in the skin being cooled.
>
> balloons in Antarctica. No evaporation there. The effect is
> of blowing away the warm layer of air that sits on the surface
> of the skin in still air, and replacing it with fresh, cold
> air. The cooling is simple conductance from skin to air.
>
> BTW, it is accepted that the original tables have serious
> defects, but they are still what is used by the various
> weather services as far as I know.
>
> --Pete
> pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
> rec.boats caps at:
> http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/cap-main.html
Pete,
I think we are talking about two different effects. In the case of
the balloons, the air temperature of the wind would have to be the
effective wind chill temperature as no evaporation and heat loss
occurs. These super cold wind chill temperatures (-100 F) may exist
at high altitudes, but not in temperate climates close to sea level.
I stand by my original (abit simple) explaination and that evaporation
of water (sweat) and the resultant heat loss is the effect called
wind chill. It even works in the summer - a fan blowing on you has
the effect of cooling you - due to more rapid evaporation of water.
Dick Eriksson
Marcus G Bell
> > The original wind-chill tables were done with water-filled
> > balloons in Antarctica. No evaporation there. The effect is
> > of blowing away the warm layer of air that sits on the surface
> > of the skin in still air, and replacing it with fresh, cold
> > air. The cooling is simple conductance from skin to air.
Richard C. Eriksson (re...@vptec.com) wrote:
> I think we are talking about two different effects. In the case of
> the balloons, the air temperature of the wind would have to be the
> effective wind chill temperature as no evaporation and heat loss
> occurs.
If the water-filled balloon is at body temperature and the air is at
anything below that, heat loss occurs.
In still air-
At the surface of the balloon, the air temperature is that of the
balloon. As you get farther from the balloon, the temperature
decreases progressively to that of the surrounding air. The warm layer
of air surrounding the balloon acts as an insulator to decrease rate
of heat loss from the balloon. There is some convection, but heat loss
is by radiation and conduction across the layer. Your skin is covered
with tiny hairs to further decrease convection.
In moving air-
Wind strips away that insulating layer of air, and conduction directly
from the balloon surface to the surrounding air can occur at a greatly
enhanced rate, relative to the still air case. So the rate of heat
removal from the balloon is much greater than in still air. The
surface of the balloon will drop in temperature relative to the
core. So, a windy day will feel colder even if your skin is very dry,
if only because of the greater rate of heat removal from your skin and
attendant drop in skin temperature. This effect can be quantified.
When you think about it, this makes most sense to define wind chill as
a dry measurement, for there's no way of controlling for the moisture
content of "the average patch of human skin".
However, evaporation from moist skin certainly enhances heat removal,
so dry your hands before you go outside in the cold, OK?
Back to the engine cooling system: wind chill factor may tell you
something about how fast the engine will react to a change in air
temperature, but it won't tell you the final temperature.
> These super cold wind chill temperatures (-100 F) may exist
> at high altitudes, but not in temperate climates close to sea level.
Define "high altitude." 1800 feet?
> I stand by my original (abit simple) explaination and that
> evaporation of water (sweat) and the resultant heat loss is the
> effect called wind chill. It even works in the summer - a fan
> blowing on you has the effect of cooling you - due to more rapid
> evaporation of water.
Evaporative cooling certainly works all year round, but perhaps it
isn't what's being measured in the "wind chill factor."
Do they specify wind chill factors in the summer?
Richard C. Eriksson
>
> Do they specify wind chill factors in the summer?
>
> --
> --
> Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
Usually refer to a "refreshing breeze to cool us off" - :-)
I agree with everything you said, Marcus, and the effect is
called convective heat transfer. However, if you are standing
outside in 10 degree air temperature and an approching low pressure
area produces a 20 mph wind of 20 degree air, I suspect the exposed
areas of your body are going to start feeling much colder.
Also consider, on a very hot and humid summer day a fan does not have
much of a cooling affect on you. Why? Because of the inability of the
surrounding air to accept any additional water vapor.
Convective heat transfer is certainly a factor, but one can get
frostbite quickly if exposed to high winds in 20-30 degree
temperatures. This "wind chill" is not convective. (If I am wrong
on this, I am going to have to go get re-programmed).
Dick Eriksson
Richard C. Eriksson
wind chill thingy.
Assume you go swimming on a 90 degree day and the water temperature
is, say, 72 degrees. You feel ok in the water. After an hour or so
you step out of the water into the 90 degree temperature and you start
shivering until you grab a towel and dry off. Why? You *should*
feel warmer if convection/conduction where the only factors.
DE
Bill McKee
Sierra, they sell a biodegradable, enviromentally friendly antifreeze for cars.
At least the advertizing says so.
Bill
Dave Brown wrote:
> Alan Fossum wrote:
>
> > Will be going up to lake superior this weekend for a couple of dives
> > then trailering home to winterize.
> > What do you think of shrink wrap????????????
>
> I'm a reluctant convert. For most people, it's more economical to build a
> frame and buy a good quality tarp that will last for years (all my large
> boats are done this way). But for the 16-18 foot boats that won't fit in
> buildings this year, it's a quick and dirty option to get me by until I can
> put up more buildings. I have experienced-based concerns about the moisture
> levels in boats that are shrink-wrapped and would caution anyone using it to
> make sure the boat can breathe (a couple of stick-on vents won't do it). I
> overcome this by wrapping the boat with the motor in the tilted position thus
> allowing the enitre back end to be vented, and still prevent rain/snow from
> getting in.
>
Del Cecchi
"Richard C. Eriksson" <re...@vptec.com> writes:
|>
|> Pete,
|>
|> I think we are talking about two different effects. In the case of
|> the balloons, the air temperature of the wind would have to be the
|> effective wind chill temperature as no evaporation and heat loss
|> occurs. These super cold wind chill temperatures (-100 F) may exist
|> at high altitudes, but not in temperate climates close to sea level.
|> I stand by my original (abit simple) explaination and that evaporation
|> of water (sweat) and the resultant heat loss is the effect called
|> wind chill. It even works in the summer - a fan blowing on you has
|> the effect of cooling you - due to more rapid evaporation of water.
|>
|> Dick Eriksson
I think wind chill is not due to evaporation but due to "forced convection".
However I can assure you that -80 to -100 wind chills exist in "temperate
climates near sea level" such as my driveway here in Rochester, MN and all across
the upper midwest. Temperatures of -20 to -30 F with winds of 15 to 25 MPH are
not uncommon. The worst I have seen here was -35 F with 35 MPH winds (the day
after a nice 10 inch snowfall). Too cold for boating.
We are at approximately 1000 feet above sea level. Minnesota is short on
mountains.
--
Del Cecchi
cecchi@rchland
Richard C. Eriksson
>
>
> I think wind chill is not due to evaporation but due to "forced convection".
> However I can assure you that -80 to -100 wind chills exist in "temperate
> climates near sea level" such as my driveway here in Rochester, MN and all across
> the upper midwest. Temperatures of -20 to -30 F with winds of 15 to 25 MPH are
> not uncommon. The worst I have seen here was -35 F with 35 MPH winds (the day
> after a nice 10 inch snowfall). Too cold for boating.
>
> We are at approximately 1000 feet above sea level. Minnesota is short on
> mountains.
> --
>
> Del Cecchi
> cecchi@rchland
This is becoming a depressing thread (all this cold, winter stuff).
However, Del, the only way you would get "forced convection" cooling
to -80 to -100 degree "wind chill" temperatures would be if the air
temperature of the wind was even colder than -80 to -100. I doubt
that happens anywhere in Minnesota or Alaska for that matter.
The wind chill is an "effective" temperature due to another process
called the latent heat of evaporation. In any event, it has no
bearing on winterizing an engine.
DE
Skipper
> Back to the engine cooling system: wind chill factor may tell you
> something about how fast the engine will react to a change in air
> temperature, but it won't tell you the final temperature.
If the wind chill factor is -100 degrees the "final temperature" becomes
a bit redundant. THAT chill factor is 'too damn cold' for most of us
and will put improperly winterized engines to a severe test. Whether
-100 degrees Wind Chill or -40 degrees Fahrenheit, who really cares
about the difference? Besides, -100 degrees seems much more dramatic.
:-)
--
Skipper
Paul Kamen
>This "wind chill" is not convective. (If I am wrong on this, I
>am going to have to go get re-programmed).
Right, it's conductive. Think "thermal boundary layer," surprisingly
similar to a frictional boundary layer.
The arguments about it, however, can be convective...
--
fish...@netcom.com
http://www.well.com/~pk/fishmeal.html
-"Call me Fishmeal"-
Skipper
>
> Instead of using RV antifreeze, why not use the antifreeze from the
> company Sierra, they sell a biodegradable, enviromentally friendly
> antifreeze for cars.
> At least the advertizing says so.
Hi Bill,
Interested in learning more about the Sierra antifreeze. Can you provide
a user testimonial and point out a website where additional information
can be obtained?
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Marcus G Bell wrote:
> > Do they specify wind chill factors in the summer?
> Usually refer to a "refreshing breeze to cool us off" - :-)
And what about Heat Index? :-) (oops, forgot the pointy head) - :-)
--
Skipper
Marcus G Bell
> >This "wind chill" is not convective. (If I am wrong on this, I
> >am going to have to go get re-programmed).
Paul Kamen (fish...@netcom.com) wrote:
> Right, it's conductive. Think "thermal boundary layer," surprisingly
> similar to a frictional boundary layer.
> The arguments about it, however, can be convective...
Heh heh.
Blow some of your cooler, wiser air over us, then :-)
Marcus G Bell
> Usually refer to a "refreshing breeze to cool us off" - :-)
> I agree with everything you said, Marcus, and the effect is called
> convective heat transfer. However, if you are standing outside in 10
> degree air temperature and an approching low pressure area produces
> a 20 mph wind of 20 degree air, I suspect the exposed areas of your
> body are going to start feeling much colder.
I agree, because
- if your skin is at all moist, some moisture will evaporate and
remove heat, as long as the wind is not already saturated
- the layer of warm air at the boundary between skin/air gets stripped
away, and conduction from your skin will increase
> Also consider, on a very hot and humid summer day a fan does not have
> much of a cooling affect on you. Why? Because of the inability of the
> surrounding air to accept any additional water vapor.
This does not prove that windchill factor is measuring evaporation. I
can tell you that a cold wind at saturating humidity will feel colder
than cold still air, evaporation or not.
By the way, in the summer, he have a "heat index" which takes into
account the humidity and its effect on evaporative cooling.
> Convective heat transfer is certainly a factor, but one can get
> frostbite quickly if exposed to high winds in 20-30 degree
> temperatures.
Which are, by the way, below 32, the temperature at which water
becomes somewhat frosty. You just need to remove heat from the skin
fast enough for it to get cold enough, deep enough. Probably moisture
helps speed this along, till it's gone and the skin is dry.
> This "wind chill" is not convective. (If I am wrong on this, I am
> going to have to go get re-programmed).
We agree that moist things get colder when dry wind blow on them. I'm
not sure that this is what is being specified by a "wind chill
factor". But hey, we'll get to the bottom of this.
Marcus G Bell
> > Back to the engine cooling system: wind chill factor may tell you
> > something about how fast the engine will react to a change in air
> > temperature, but it won't tell you the final temperature.
Skipper (ski...@dtc.net) wrote:
> If the wind chill factor is -100 degrees the "final temperature"
> becomes a bit redundant. THAT chill factor is 'too damn cold' for
> most of us and will put improperly winterized engines to a severe
> test.
Depending on the actual "non-wind-chill" temperature, of course :-)
> Whether -100 degrees Wind Chill or -40 degrees Fahrenheit, who
> really cares about the difference?
While I'm inside in front of the wood stove, not me. But my engine out
in the shed cares, and suddenly I start to care too. Is 50/50 a strong
enough mix to protect to -40? Was the windchill reading because of 75
mph winds, or light winds and cold temperatures? Should I have mixed
it 70/30? I'd like to test its specific gravity, but it has the
consistency of a 7-11 slurpee and it won't such up into the "turkey
baster". Dang, how am I going to sleep tonight?
> Besides, -100 degrees seems much more dramatic. :-)
Oh, that it do indeed. Take a bow, Mr. Pacino.
Bill McKee
a given temperature. Not evaporative cooling. That is heat of formation,
or how much heat does it take to change state. Water at 32 degrees and in
an ice state as opposed to water at 32 degrees in a liquid state. It takes
energy (calories) to go from liquid to ice, when the ice goes to liquid it
gives up that energy. If you run your car without a fan on the waterpump,
it will overheat as the heat can not transfer from the radiator fast enough
through radiation. While air flow allows conduction of the heat to the air
flowing through the radiator at a much grater rate. In still air at 20
degrees F there is radiative heat transfer from the body at the same rate as
if the wind was blowing at 100 MPH, and a conductive transfer of heat at
some rate, but the wind allows conductive transfer of heat at a much higher
rate. The wind chill factor is what the total heat transfer would be at
temperature in still air. Evaporative heat transfer, from the sweat is a
different item. That is why wind chill is figured from a dry bulb
thermometer.
Bill
Skipper wrote:
> Marcus G Bell wrote:
>
> > Back to the engine cooling system: wind chill factor may tell you
> > something about how fast the engine will react to a change in air
> > temperature, but it won't tell you the final temperature.
>
> If the wind chill factor is -100 degrees the "final temperature" becomes
> a bit redundant. THAT chill factor is 'too damn cold' for most of us
> and will put improperly winterized engines to a severe test. Whether
> -100 degrees Wind Chill or -40 degrees Fahrenheit, who really cares
> about the difference? Besides, -100 degrees seems much more dramatic.
> :-)
>
> --
> Skipper
Bill McKee
Marcus G Bell
> > > Do they specify wind chill factors in the summer?
> Richard C. Eriksson wrote:
> > Usually refer to a "refreshing breeze to cool us off" - :-)
Skipper (ski...@dtc.net) wrote:
> And what about Heat Index? :-) (oops, forgot the pointy head) - :-)
I caught you. I had cast my bait for Richard, but apparently he's wise
to the action of my lure.
Does anyone have the formula for heat index?
Richard C. Eriksson
Marcus, (and Pete), I am wrong, youse guys are right.
Copied the following from a website about windchill:
Cold Temperatures and Windchill
One of the most important but often
overlooked considerations in cold
weather work is the effect of wind
combined with air temperature. The
"windchill factor" can account for about
80 percent of the total heat loss from the
body.
Different combinations of air
temperature and wind speed can present
the same hazards. For example, when
the air is calm and the temperature is -1
degree Celsius the body will feel cool.
The same temperature with 40 km/h
winds can produce bitter coldness. The
wind blows away the thin layer of air that
acts as an insulator between the skin
and the outside air.
The importance of wind speed on cold
weather work can be seen in the chart
below.3 The "windchill factor" is derived
from a mathematical equation and
measures the rate of cooling of warm
objects exposed to given wind and air
temperature conditions. A temperature of
-11 degrees Celsius and a wind speed
of 16 km/h can produce a windchill factor
of 1200 - the windchill factor where
exposed flesh freezes. Yet the higher
temperature of -2.8 degrees Celsius with
a windspeed of 40 kilometres per hour
can produce the same.
1400 is the windchill level for the coldest
month of the year in places such as
Winnipeg. At a windchill level of 2400
exposed flesh freezes in one minute.
If accurate information is not available,
the following can be used as a guide to
estimate wind velocity:
8
km/h
a light flag moves;
16 km/h
a light flag fully
extends;
24 km/h
raises newspaper
sheet;
32 km/h
blowing and drifting
snow
It is important to remember that winds
can be generated naturally or
mechanically. Riding in a vehicle or
standing near an air blower can create
conditions that raise the windchill factor
above the natural conditions thus
causing potential hazards.
I'll be eating my crow for dinner.
Dick Eriksson
Marcus G Bell
> I'll be eating my crow for dinner.
Tastes like chicken.
Bill McKee
Marcus G Bell wrote:
> > Marcus G Bell wrote:
>
> > > Back to the engine cooling system: wind chill factor may tell you
> > > something about how fast the engine will react to a change in air
> > > temperature, but it won't tell you the final temperature.
Your right, the wind chill will allow the engine to cool down fasterm but
it will not go beyond the actual temperature.
>
>
> Skipper (ski...@dtc.net) wrote:
>
> > If the wind chill factor is -100 degrees the "final temperature"
> > becomes a bit redundant. THAT chill factor is 'too damn cold' for
> > most of us and will put improperly winterized engines to a severe
> > test.
>
My brother spent 3 Summers in the Antarctic. He tells about the summer
storms where it got -50f and they stayed inside, but left the Snowcats
running so the engines would not freeze, but did not drive the cat as the
metal tracks would crack due to the cold.
> Depending on the actual "non-wind-chill" temperature, of course :-)
>
> > Whether -100 degrees Wind Chill or -40 degrees Fahrenheit, who
> > really cares about the difference?
>
> While I'm inside in front of the wood stove, not me. But my engine out
> in the shed cares, and suddenly I start to care too. Is 50/50 a strong
> enough mix to protect to -40? Was the windchill reading because of 75
> mph winds, or light winds and cold temperatures? Should I have mixed
> it 70/30? I'd like to test its specific gravity, but it has the
> consistency of a 7-11 slurpee and it won't such up into the "turkey
> baster". Dang, how am I going to sleep tonight?
>
Just set the Antifreeze for the low temperature puls a safty margin. That
shed negates the wind chill.
> > Besides, -100 degrees seems much more dramatic. :-)
The coldest recorded natural temperature on earth was at the Russian base,
near the American base, in the Winter and the Alcohol thermometer froze at
-125F.Now thats TOO cold for a guy who grew up 10 blocks from San
Francisco bay, in Berkely area.
>
>
> Oh, that it do indeed. Take a bow, Mr. Pacino.
>
> --
> --
> Marcus. ( be...@mail.med.upenn.edu )
Bill
Dave Brown
> posted sierra antifreeze to Hotbot and got
> http://www.sierraantifreeze.com/sierra/
It's the product I'm referring to in my post about being 'less' toxic
(propylene glycol).
George Jefferson
:a user testimonial and point out a website where additional information
:can be obtained?
sierra is the same propelyne glycol as the pink RV stuff. Maybe
it has some better corrosion inhibitors, or maybe its just
dyed a different color <g>. It is always full strength
anyway, where you have to read the label on the water system
anti freeze to see if you've bought half water.
--
george jefferson : geo...@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
to reply simply press "r"
-- I hate editing addresses more than I hate the spam!
Marshfield Mass.
Would you care to share your information source?
If the pink stuff is the same, I wonder if major automakers approve
it for use in their engines.
--
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
George Jefferson wrote in message
<6ve3u4$96c$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
George Jefferson
:Are you sure about this George?
:Would you care to share your information source?
read the label, they are both the same propelyene glycol.
:If the pink stuff is the same, I wonder if major automakers approve
:it for use in their engines.
I was only half kidding, i'm sure the sierra does have addatives
to make it more appropriate for engine cooling. Wether that
is important just for winter freeze protection is a good question.
Marshfield Mass.
Does the label state weather It's virgin product or if it was
scraped of an airport tarmac? :-)
--
Jim Clark
Custom Yacht Services
Marshfield, Massachusetts
(EMAIL) custom-yac...@worldnet.att.net
(WEB PAGE) http://home.att.net/~custom-yacht-services
George Jefferson wrote in message
<6ve7hq$3so$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
Del Cecchi
>
>
> This is becoming a depressing thread (all this cold, winter stuff).
> However, Del, the only way you would get "forced convection" cooling
> to -80 to -100 degree "wind chill" temperatures would be if the air
> temperature of the wind was even colder than -80 to -100. I doubt
> that happens anywhere in Minnesota or Alaska for that matter.
> The wind chill is an "effective" temperature due to another process
> called the latent heat of evaporation. In any event, it has no
> bearing on winterizing an engine.
>
> DE
Depressing is right. But I disagree it has anything to do with
evaporation or latent heat. Say we have a mass that is exposed to cold
ambient air that is still and we measure the rate at which it cools,
call it dT/dt when the mass is at some temperature, say 98.6 degrees F.
Now plot the curve of dT/dt as a function of the ambient temperature.
Repeat the plotting exercise with an air velocity, rather than still
air. The curves will cross or the cooling rates will be equal at two
different temperatures. The moving air one will be higher. The still
air one is called the wind chill.
I don't think evaporation has much effect at those cold temperatures
because cold skin doesn't have much surface moisture to evaporate. If
evaporation was significant, one could stay warm by sticking saran wrap
to their cheeks.
But I guess I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Besides I
have to go wash my polypros. :-)
del cecchi
Paul Kamen
>...It is a simple fact of physics that, unless you add an
>additional source of cooling (evaporation of water from the
>skin, in the case of wind chill), an object can not get folder
>than the ambient air temperature. Wind may affect how fast it
>gets there ( rate of transfer ) but has NO effect on the
>ultimate temp. -30 in a hundred mile an hour wind is
>still -30 to a piece of cast iron.
There we go with those facts of physics again. Doesn't it depend on the
shape of that piece of cast iron? Consider wing ice or carburator ice,
most likely to form when the ambient tempurature is considerably above
freezing on a humid day. A thermo-aerodynamic effect that has nothing to
do with evaporation.
But you're right about wind chill, and I'm just picking another nit.
Anders Svensson
When being in the army in 74-75, I was taught that "wind chill factor"
is simply the powerful effect of ventilating the the boundary layer of
warm air closest to the body (especially exposed skin areas). The body
has no big problems heating itself, as long as warmth isn't transported
away too fast. There is also a limit to how fast the blood can
transport heat to exposed tissue (like cheeks) and to the extremeties
(hands, feet) so feeling "warm" in general may still lead to local
freezing.
It is known that as long as you can insulate your body well enough,
even *sleeping* in extreme cold can't hurt you, but there are practical
problems if you need to work in extreme climates - you may need to see,
walk and use your hands... - hence the importance of applying "wind
chill" factors to outside activitys.
It is quite possible that evaporation may have some extra effect,
especially under conditions where you sweat (and the army is possibly
one of the few places where anyone otherwise healthy and sane persone
can be made to sweat in -35C...) but that is not what you generally
include in "wind chill".
Engines (I promise!) do not suffer from wind chill... Its a biological
thing, and basically only a problem for fur-less animals lik humans...
--
Anders Svensson, with a smile and a big beard in winter
----------------------------------------
Big Jim <jul...@csi.com> skrev i inlägg
<361ef910...@news.spry.com>...
> On Tue, 06 Oct 1998 15:17:37 GMT, pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W.
Meek)
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 02 Oct 1998 18:12:59 -0400, Richard Eriksson
<re...@vptec.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Wind chill is due to the evaporation of water on the skin.
> >>(We sweat even in the winter). Wind increases the evaporation rate.
> >>When water evaporates, it gives off heat (called latent heat of
> >>evaporation) and results in the skin being cooled.
> >
> >The original wind-chill tables were done with water-filled
> >balloons in Antarctica. No evaporation there. The effect is
> >of blowing away the warm layer of air that sits on the surface
> >of the skin in still air, and replacing it with fresh, cold
> >air. The cooling is simple conductance from skin to air.
> >
> >BTW, it is accepted that the original tables have serious
> >defects, but they are still what is used by the various
> >weather services as far as I know.
>
> I don't really care what is claimed about the original tests. It is a
Marcus G Bell
> >...It is a simple fact of physics that, unless you add an
> >additional source of cooling (evaporation of water from the
> >skin, in the case of wind chill), an object can not get folder
> >than the ambient air temperature.
Paul Kamen (fish...@netcom.com) wrote:
> But you're right about wind chill, and I'm just picking another nit.
He said wind chill was from evaporation of water from the skin. Is
that correct?
Other than that nit, we're all agreed that wind chill has no bearing
whatsoever on what temperature dry cast iron will reach, whether it be
protected or exposed.
Paul Kamen
>He said wind chill was from evaporation of water from the skin. Is
>that correct?
No, not about the evaporation of water from skin (at least, based on my
understanding of what the the tests are really measuring). He's right
about engine blocks, though.
Paul Kamen
>Under isobaric conditions...
But how can you have any wind at all under isobaric conditions? ;-)
Peter W. Meek
>An object can't get colder than the air temperature, unless it can
>give off energy to evaporation or something else. So, all in all,
>windchill factor is of monor relevance when discussing freezing point
>protection of an engine cooling system.
Freezing point protection, yes, minor. But how fast it gets
there (can you leave it overnight; would a "blanket" help),
wind speed might be significant.
--
--Pete
pwm...@mail.msen.com (Peter W. Meek)
rec.boats caps at:
http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/cap-main.html
Peter W. Meek
>I think we are talking about two different effects. In the case of
>the balloons, the air temperature of the wind would have to be the
>effective wind chill temperature as no evaporation and heat loss
>occurs. These super cold wind chill temperatures (-100 F) may exist
>at high altitudes, but not in temperate climates close to sea level.
>I stand by my original (abit simple) explaination and that evaporation
>of water (sweat) and the resultant heat loss is the effect called
>wind chill. It even works in the summer - a fan blowing on you has
>the effect of cooling you - due to more rapid evaporation of water.
I agree, we are talking about two different things,
but "wind chill" in its defined sense, is the faster
cooling due to replacement of a warm boundary layer
by wind. That is the one called "wind chill" and it
is the one reported by weather services.
It is intended to measure the effect on human beings, but
one of the defects that I mentioned earlier is that it
does *NOT* take things like evaporation and air humidity
into consideration. It depends on things like an object
being near human body temperature at the beginning of the
measurement and how much faster it loses heat when a wind
is blowing vs. when it isn't. And as Marcus mentioned, it
has *NO* ability to lower the temperature of an object
below the actual air temperature (which evaporative cooling
certainly does have.)
Peter W. Meek
>I agree with everything you said, Marcus, and the effect is
>called convective heat transfer. However, if you are standing
>outside in 10 degree air temperature and an approching low pressure
>area produces a 20 mph wind of 20 degree air, I suspect the exposed
>areas of your body are going to start feeling much colder.
>Also consider, on a very hot and humid summer day a fan does not have
>much of a cooling affect on you. Why? Because of the inability of the
>surrounding air to accept any additional water vapor.
>
>Convective heat transfer is certainly a factor, but one can get
>frostbite quickly if exposed to high winds in 20-30 degree
>temperatures. This "wind chill" is not convective. (If I am wrong
>on this, I am going to have to go get re-programmed).
You are absolutely correct in all you say about the
effects of cold dry winds cooling you faster. It is
just that that is not the definition of "wind chill".
A real human with exposed, moist skin will cool off
faster than the Wind Chill Tables would suggest. He
would also cool off in a warm dry wind, for which
no Wind Chill factors are defined.
Wind Chill factors were determined by placing objects
of about human body temperature in various winds of
various temperatures and measuring how fast they
cooled. Among the things not taken into consideration
are things like skin moistness, air moistness, the
fact that humans have a pumped recirculation system
internally and have the ability to close down surface
capillaries when the skin is cold.
That said, with all its defects, the Wind Chill Table
does give a good *comparative* way of describing how
cold it will feel when a certain wind is blowing at
a certain temperature. If the weatherman says the
Wind Chill is -40 (chosen because it is the same in
both F and C), you don't want to go out unprotected.
Peter W. Meek
>I'll be eating my crow for dinner.
Me too, but in a different way. I should have read
the whole thread before replying. I apologize for
"beating up on you" after you had already retracted.
Anders Svensson
is hurt by a combination of low temperature and blood circulation
problems. This can happen at temperatures above the freezing point, if
body heat is transported away real quickly - or if excess body heat
isn't moved to some areas like fingers, toes, feet and the outermost
skin layer (that cannot "heat themselves" by muscle shivering) by the
blood vessels. Blood vessels on the bodys surface also contract because
the body wants to preserve heat for survival, and will (if neccessary)
sacrifice some skin (and in extreme cases, toes and fingers) in the
process... All these nasty things may happen in temperatures above
freezing, if circumstances are right (or, rather, wrong).
Your concern is however related to boating in a big way, as the
likeliness of getting both soaking wet *and* exposed to wind is a boat
related problem. This effect may enhance the wind chill factor to a
considerable degree. We all know about the boy scout trick of making a
fridge of a tin box with a wet blanket on, and this evaporation effect
is really dangerous, when it occurs on wet humans in high winds...
--
Anders Svensson
----------------------------------------
Big Jim <jul...@csi.com> skrev i inlägg
<361d4699...@news.spry.com>...
> On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 07:28:21 GMT, "Anders Svensson"
> <anders.-.ei...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >Allow me to put things "straight":
> >
> >When being in the army in 74-75, I was taught that "wind chill
factor"
> >is simply the powerful effect of ventilating the the boundary layer
of
> >warm air closest to the body (especially exposed skin areas). The
body
> >has no big problems heating itself, as long as warmth isn't
transported
> >away too fast. There is also a limit to how fast the blood can
> >transport heat to exposed tissue (like cheeks) and to the
extremeties
> >(hands, feet) so feeling "warm" in general may still lead to local
> >freezing.
> If that is the case, how come published tables indicate a potential
> for frostbite at temps above freezing? Can't happen without
> evaporation being a factor. The heat of vaporization of water is a
> very large number. A little evaporated water takes a lot of heat.
>
Paul Kamen
>NO!!! Wing ice, carb ice - You are dealing with water
>vapor and conditions of changed pressure. The varing pressure
>somewhat alters the freezing point and the vapor offers
>potential for evaporative cooling.
Um, how can water vapor offer a potential for evaporative cooling? It's
already evaporated, right?
Seems to me that the pressure drop would cause water vapor to condense
out, releaseing heat, not absorbing it. Just like a cloud at the top of a
thermal. But in the case of wing ice, the expanded air is still making the
surface cold enough for this water to freeze on contact. Without the water
vapor I suspect the wing surface would get even colder (but of course, no
ice would form so the phenomenon in dry air is of no concern to pilots).
>Icing is usually a factor in fairly high velocity
>airstreams ( a wing >at 200 mph)
Right, that's why this is under the heading of nit-picking with respect
to winterizing an engine.
Richard Eriksson
>
> On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 07:28:21 GMT, "Anders Svensson"
> <anders.-.ei...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >Allow me to put things "straight":
> >
> >When being in the army in 74-75, I was taught that "wind chill factor"
> >is simply the powerful effect of ventilating the the boundary layer of
> >warm air closest to the body (especially exposed skin areas). The body
> >has no big problems heating itself, as long as warmth isn't transported
> >away too fast. There is also a limit to how fast the blood can
> >transport heat to exposed tissue (like cheeks) and to the extremeties
> >(hands, feet) so feeling "warm" in general may still lead to local
> >freezing.
> If that is the case, how come published tables indicate a potential
> for frostbite at temps above freezing? Can't happen without
> evaporation being a factor. The heat of vaporization of water is a
> very large number. A little evaporated water takes a lot of heat.
Big Jim,
The problem with the evaporation theory as it relates to windchill
is purely definition. I looked up the equation used for calculating
windchill and it does not contain any values for amount of water
or relative humidity, both of which would affect the windchill effect
if it was due to the latent heat of evaporation. The article I read
went on to explain that windchill was caused by "stripping away of
the thermal boundary close to the skin". Now, this was all defined
back in 1940. The cooling effect due to water (sweat) evaporation
from the surface of exposed skin certainly *does* exist. Under certain
conditions it can be very pronounced. It just is not generally
accepted as being the "cause" of windchill and is much more difficult
to quantify due to variables such as amount of water, relative
humidity, barametric pressure, etc. You are right (and so was I) in
the fact that it is a factor - it just is not the accepted explaination
of windchill as defined back in 1940. The best demonstration of
cooling of the human body by evaporation of water is the effect of
a fan on a hot summer day. The fan (wind) increased the evaporation
rate, thereby increasing the cooling rate. When the ambient temperature
is warmer than the human body, cooling cannot be a result of
"stripping away the thermal barrier". If it was, you would feel
hotter.
Dick Eriksson
much more
Richard Eriksson
question to ponder...
As Anders Svensson pointed out in his post, boating on windy, wet
days can make you mighty cold and you should take precautions to
stay dry. Now, why are you colder when wet in the wind than dry in
the same wind? Stripping away the thermal boundry layer? Nope!
Evaporative cooling of the moisture (sweat) from the surface of the
skin? Nope! Convective cooling? Nope. The answer is: ?????
Dick Eriksson
Anders Svensson
clothes, the most likely explanation is a combination of conductive
heat loss and evaporation. Then, water is about 25 times better as a
heat conducting medium than dry air - wich generally explains why
dressed people will (ultimately) die from exposure in 20C water
temperature, but will survive 20C air temperature without problems....
The body heats up the layer of clothing you wear, not the other way
around, and the wind induced evaporation of the wet fabric layer cools
that fabric down quickly - leading the clothing to actually draw heat
from the body in a much faster rate than if the clothes were dry.
If you ever find yourself in this situation, exposed for wind and cold,
and with no dry clothes, you will be in trouble in a very short time.
What you need to do is to get rid of as much water as possible from
your clothes, with as little exposure as possible during that time. If
you don't start that immediately, things can go real bad, real quick.
Anders Svensson
----------------------------------------
Richard Eriksson <re...@vptec.com> skrev i inlägg
<361C84...@vptec.com>...
Richard Eriksson
I agree. In this case the primary source of heat loss is due to
conductive heat transfer, made very efficient due to the intimate
and large area contact of water.
DE
Peter W. Meek
>If that is the case, how come published tables indicate a potential
>for frostbite at temps above freezing? Can't happen without
>evaporation being a factor. The heat of vaporization of water is a
>very large number. A little evaporated water takes a lot of heat.
Two things:
1) There may well be a risk of frostbite at temperatures
above freezing in windy conditions. Evaporation may
account for this. This makes perfect sense.
2) Frostbite may be partly a circulation problem (as
opposed to being strictly an ice-crystal formation
problem). It may occur at skin temperatures above
freezing. I simply don't know whether this is so.
Seems to me that someone just quoted some source
material; is there any information on this aspect?
Sections of Wind Chill tables which are above
32 F (or 0 Celsius) may be marked as conditions
where frostbite is a risk. Also, the tables you
are referring to may be titled as Frostbite Tables
(or even marked Wind Chill erroneously; we have
seen in this thread that a lot of people use
the term without a clear understanding of how
it is derived or defined.) It certainly would
be a case of "wind chill" (an effect) as opposed
to "Wind Chill" (a defined term).
Marcus G Bell
> Anders Svensson wrote:
> >
> > The body heats up the layer of clothing you wear, not the other way
> > around, and the wind induced evaporation of the wet fabric layer cools
> > that fabric down quickly - leading the clothing to actually draw heat
> > from the body in a much faster rate than if the clothes were dry.
Richard Eriksson (re...@vptec.com) wrote:
> I agree. In this case the primary source of heat loss is due to
> conductive heat transfer, made very efficient due to the intimate
> and large area contact of water.
The clothing fabric is very often woven or plush, which is nice when
it is dry as it keeps a warm layer of air around your body, but when
wet it presents an effective surface area to the wind which may be
greater than the surface area of naked skin.
Yes, conduction between clothing and skin is enhanced when water is
saturating the interface. So heat can be conducted directly (through
the water) to the air, since the wind has stripped the insulating
layer of air from around the clothing. But evaporative cooling at the
surface of the clothing factors in heavily.
You can remain warmer in heavy wind with soaked clothing if you have a
layer of non-permeable sheathing over the clothing to reduce
evaporation to almost zero. A plastic garbage bag over a soaked
sweatshirt can make you almost toasty warm. In practice, an outer
material that lets vapor out, but prevents liquid and wind from coming
in, will let the inner fabric liner dry out over time and to further
decrease conductive heat loss as well. Gore Tex.
Richard C. Eriksson
If anybody in this newsgroup goes cold this winter ... well,
they just ain't paying attention.
DE
Anders Svensson
Every little air trapped in between helps with insulating.
Remeber that the first priority in such a circumstance (winter bathing
with clothes on - ouch) is to stop the big chill factor, the air
blowing away your precious body heat - both via convection and
evaporation. So finding a lee (even in a *used* garbage bag) would be
imperative.
The second priority is to help reestablish a microclimate that allows
you to maintain temperature. However nasty it seems to undress at the
moment, wringing out as much water as possible from the clothes you
have on is probably the best strategy, because it will take alot of
your body warmth to dry out that water even if you are shielded from
the wind.
You cannot trust your senses, either, as the body quickly adapts to
temperature differences. Actually, you can feel warm and nice one
moment, and lose conciousness the next. Your buddies may see you act
really strange for some time, but, quite often, the victim himself may
not be aware of his predicament in time to be able to do something
constructive about it.
--
Anders Svensson
----------------------------------------
Marcus G Bell <be...@mail.med.upenn.edu> skrev i inlägg
<6vidod$2k4$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
Dave Brown
Lordy! You boys can sure prattle on when something takes your fancy.
;-)
Marcus G Bell
> On Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:11:31 -0700, Bill McKee
> <bmckee...@remove.ti.com> wrote:
> >Wind chill is a measure of heat transfer. ...
> >.... If you run your car without a fan on the waterpump,
> >it will overheat as the heat can not transfer from the radiator fast enough
> >through radiation. While air flow allows conduction of the heat to the air
> >flowing through the radiator at a much grater rate.
Big Jim (jul...@csi.com) wrote:
> Nice try but wind chill is applicable ONLY to exposed flesh, period.
> Your radiator doesn't know from anything about wind chill. It only
> understands ordinary heat transfer.
Nice try, but ordinary heat transfer from the engine depends on the
windspeed. Hence, it depends on Windchill. Windchill applies to
anything that is losing heat to the air. It's not the final
temperature, it's the time it takes to reach it.
If your airplane engine is going to get too cold to start within an
hour at -20 in still air, the wind will only shorten this time. It
would be wise to be aware of this.
If the engine is already at -20, then we are not talking heat transfer
anymore.
Peter W. Meek
>Big Jim (jul...@csi.com) wrote:
>
>> Nice try but wind chill is applicable ONLY to exposed flesh, period.
>> Your radiator doesn't know from anything about wind chill. It only
>> understands ordinary heat transfer.
>
>Nice try, but ordinary heat transfer from the engine depends on the
>windspeed. Hence, it depends on Windchill. Windchill applies to
>anything that is losing heat to the air. It's not the final
>temperature, it's the time it takes to reach it.
In fairness to Big Jim, while Windchill does affect other things
than exposed flesh, it won't be in quite the same way. The system
was intended to be a way of assigning a similarity between the
way flesh is affected in still air at one temperature versus the
way it is affected by moving air at different temperatures. So
while it certainly can be used as a relative index for any other
thing warmer than the air temperature, it is most useful for
things near normal body temperature, and nearly like the human
body in terms of how fast heat is replaced at the "skin".
But, against Big Jim's position, Windchill wasn't determined with
exposed flesh, but with some standardized objects intended to be
similar to exposed flesh. Unfortunately these objects turned
out *not* to be very similar to exposed flesh, so the Windchill
tables aren't very useful for that either, in any precise way.
They remain a weatherman's shock tool, most useful for giving
a little excitement to an otherwise dull winter weather report.
"Look at those Windchills on the Great Plains!" It gives a
certain sense of satisfaction to someone suffering a freak cold
front during a Florida vacation (45F) to see the Weather Channel
report a Windchill of -20F back home.
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