Fischer Panda/Farymann Motor Failures
Geoffrey W. Schultz
4.2 KW generator that has been nothing but trouble. It utilizes a
Farymann single cylinder 3600 RPM diesel motor. The generator has
constantly failed due to a variety of issues. If you're interested in
the history, you can read my original post at:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=Xns9177644D65560schultzultranetcom%40207.172.3.51
In short, the motor suffered from water intrusion two times causing the
cylinder/piston to rust. After a lot discussion with Fischer Panda they
agreed to replace the motor. Much to their credit they FedExed one down
to Curacao where I had it installed almost exactly 1 year ago. At that
point the run-hour meter showed 730 hours. I performed the normal burn-
in and had the valves re-adjusted.
Despite a series of other problems with the generator, the motor ran
fine for the remainder of the year. I kept the boat in Guatemala's Rio
Dulce for hurricane season. It, and all of the other systems were run
every 2 weeks. Upon return in November I tested it extensively at the
dock and everything seemed just fine. In mid-November we pulled out of
the Rio Dulce and headed towards Belize.
Fifteen minutes into the first real usage of the generator it suddenly
quit and made a metallic clanging sound. NOT GOOD! At this point this
engine had a little more than 500 hours on it. I pulled the valve cover
off and found a broken spring and the push rods were bent. Not being a
diesel mechanic I had one look at it in Belize City. While they didn't
tear the engine down, they stated that at minimum that the valves, push
rods, rocker arms, etc had to be replaced. They also stated that there
was a good chance that the valve had hit the top of the piston requiring
the piston to be replaced and that the camshaft may be scored requiring
its replacement also. Their suggestion was to replace the entire
engine.
On the flip side, some have suggested that since this is a single
cylinder engine which shut down immediately, that there's a good chance
that the only thing that needs to be replaced is the valve assembly.
While I realize that nothing can be determined until it's torn apart,
I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this.
Fischer Panda stated that "We have seen 2 to 3 valve spring failures in
the last three years. Both occurred within the first 50 hours of use.
The engine manufacturer, Faryman, was unable to determine the reason for
the failures." The engine carries a 1 year warranty and should be
covered. I provided FP with the maintenance history of the motor (which
I maintain in an extensive database) and they stated that I may need to
provide additional information. I can't imagine what they need...maybe
time stamped photos of me changing the oil...but I sure don't like the
tone of the response.
From what I know, this engine is used by Westerbeke, Kohler, Entec
Volpi, BMZ and others. I would have to assume that its fairly reliable.
However, I had water intrusion in this engine 2 times and the boat next
to me on the Rio Dulce has the same generator and had to replace their
motor, at their cost, for the exact same reason.
Have other people who have this generator/motor seen this or similar
problems?
-- Geoff
Gould 0738
>constantly failed
>In short, the motor suffered from water intrusion two times causing the
>cylinder/piston to rust.
> After a lot discussion with Fischer Panda they
>agreed to replace the motor. Much to their credit they FedExed one down
>to Curacao where I had it installed almost exactly 1 year ago. At that
>point the run-hour meter showed 730 hours. I performed the normal burn-
>in and had the valves re-adjuste
Stop. This story gets very confusing.
They replaced your engine with a unit that had 730 hours on it? Or was it a
brand new engine?
If it was a brand new engine, why did you have somebody monkey with the valves?
Is that part of the normal set-up procedure for a Panda generator? (It may well
be.)
>Despite a series of other problems with the generator, the motor ran
>fine for the remainder of the year.
>It, and all of the other systems were run
>every 2 weeks.
>Fifteen minutes into the first real usage of the generator it suddenly
>quit and made a metallic clanging sound.
How could this be the first real use? What happened to the 730 hours?
>NOT GOOD! At this point this
>engine had a little more than 500 hours on it.
So, are we up to 1230 hours, or is the meter running backwards? :-)
> I pulled the valve cover
>off and found a broken spring and the push rods were bent.
And this is where it gets really confusing.
You had a valve train failure, and this was either on an engine with 1230 hours
or the occurred during the "first real use" of the engine after you hired
somebody to tweak the valves, all depending upon how one chooses to interpret
the conflicting facts supplied.
>On the flip side, some have suggested that since this is a single
>cylinder engine which shut down immediately, that there's a good chance
>that the only thing that needs to be replaced is the valve assembly.
>While I realize that nothing can be determined until it's torn apart,
>I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this.
>
>Fischer Panda stated that "We have seen 2 to 3 valve spring failures in
>the last three years. Both occurred within the first 50 hours of use.
>The engine manufacturer, Faryman, was unable to determine the reason for
>the failures." The engine carries a 1 year warranty and should be
>covered. I provided FP with the maintenance history of the motor (which
>I maintain in an extensive database) and they stated that I may need to
>provide additional information. I can't imagine what they need...maybe
>time stamped photos of me changing the oil...but I sure don't like the
>tone of the response.
>
>From what I know, this engine is used by Westerbeke, Kohler, Entec
>Volpi, BMZ and others. I would have to assume that its fairly reliable.
>However, I had water intrusion in this engine 2 times and the boat next
>to me on the Rio Dulce has the same generator and had to replace their
>motor, at their cost, for the exact same reason.
>
>
>Have other people who have this generator/motor seen this or similar
>problems?
>
>-- Geoff
The engine is under warranty.
The guy in Belize city would much rather bill Panda for installing a whole new
engine
than for replacing a valve assembly. That may explain the X-ray vision analysis
that the piston is damaged as well.
And we all wonder why products sold with warranties cost as much as they do.
There is *zero* motivation by most repair stations
to do much less than replace the entire engine, system, or whatever. Fifteen
minutes after the warranty expires, these same vendors might easily be heard
advising, "It may not be anything more serious than a valve train repair. Le'ts
take the head off and have a look......."
You sure put a lot of hours on a gen set.
Running a lot of AC?
Geoffrey W. Schultz
news:20030102124245...@mb-fh.aol.com:
>>The generator has
>>constantly failed
>
>>In short, the motor suffered from water intrusion two times causing
>>the cylinder/piston to rust.
>
>> After a lot discussion with Fischer Panda they
>>agreed to replace the motor. Much to their credit they FedExed one
>>down to Curacao where I had it installed almost exactly 1 year ago.
>>At that point the run-hour meter showed 730 hours. I performed the
>>normal burn- in and had the valves re-adjuste
>
> Stop. This story gets very confusing.
>
> They replaced your engine with a unit that had 730 hours on it? Or was
> it a brand new engine?
>
> If it was a brand new engine, why did you have somebody monkey with
> the valves? Is that part of the normal set-up procedure for a Panda
> generator? (It may well be.)
Correct, they replaced the entire engine. They require a valve
adjustment after a 35 hour burn-in.
>>Despite a series of other problems with the generator, the motor ran
>>fine for the remainder of the year.
>
>>It, and all of the other systems were run
>>every 2 weeks.
>
>>Fifteen minutes into the first real usage of the generator it suddenly
>>quit and made a metallic clanging sound.
>
> How could this be the first real use? What happened to the 730 hours?
Sorry, I thought that the previous text provided sufficient background.
I should have said "...first real use of the season..." to clarify.1
>>NOT GOOD! At this point this
>>engine had a little more than 500 hours on it.
>
> So, are we up to 1230 hours, or is the meter running backwards? :-)
That is correct. The new engine only had 500 hours on it, which is why
I said "...this engine..."
>> I pulled the valve cover
>>off and found a broken spring and the push rods were bent.
>
> And this is where it gets really confusing.
> You had a valve train failure, and this was either on an engine with
> 1230 hours or the occurred during the "first real use" of the engine
> after you hired somebody to tweak the valves, all depending upon how
> one chooses to interpret the conflicting facts supplied.
Explained above.
Actually the guy in Belize had no idea that it was under warrenty. He
was looking at the costs of the replacement parts & labor vs a new
motor.
> And we all wonder why products sold with warranties cost as much as
> they do. There is *zero* motivation by most repair stations
> to do much less than replace the entire engine, system, or whatever.
> Fifteen minutes after the warranty expires, these same vendors might
> easily be heard advising, "It may not be anything more serious than a
> valve train repair. Le'ts take the head off and have a look......."
>
> You sure put a lot of hours on a gen set.
> Running a lot of AC?
I live on my boat about 7 months out of the year. The boat was in
Central America last cruising season where the normal low as about 80F
and the highs were in the low- to mid-90s. I run the genset about 2
hours a day to run the refrigeration, make water and charge the
batteries. If it was unusually hot, I needed to run it more. Nothing
unusual about that.
Geoffrey W. Schultz
At this point I have a single cylinder diesel with a broken valve spring
and 2 bent push rods. The valves seem fine. Could the spring breaking
cause the rods to bend or did the timing get off breaking the spring and
bending the rods? I'm just trying to envision what occurred.
-- Geoff
Don W.
I'm not familiar with that particular engine, BUT... the only
way that I know of that valve push rods get bent is for the piston
to impact an open valve. This would imply that the timing between
the crank and camshaft had slipped. This impact will not normally
break a valve spring, although it is not uncommon to bend the valve
stem resulting in a stuck valve.
I can't think of a scenario where a piston strike would break a valve
spring. Hmm... Also, I can't think of a scenario where a broken valve
spring would cause a piston strike on the _other_ valve. Something is
very strange here.
Anyone else?
Don W.
Nancy Eilers-Hughes
>
> As readers of this and other forums may recall, I have a Fischer Panda
> 4.2 KW generator that has been nothing but trouble. It utilizes a
> Farymann single cylinder 3600 RPM diesel motor. The generator has
> constantly failed due to a variety of issues. If you're interested in
> the history, you can read my original post at:
3600 RPM sounds awfully fast for a single cylinder Faryman. I don't
know what model you have, but I've run a 30L Faryman for 11 years
(7400lb sailboat) and 1000 hrs with no problems at all. It is
governed at, and specified for, maximum continuous operation of
2800 rpm.
Keith Hughes
Geoffrey W. Schultz
http://www.fischerpanda.com/marine/marineac3600main.htm
-- Geoff
Nancy Eilers-Hughes <keitha...@qwest.net> wrote in
news:3E14C405...@qwest.net:
Steve
brushes are doubled up (this is done with higher quality sets such as
Northern Lights.
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92F7C5F4F839Ds...@216.148.227.77...
RD
wrote:
>I can't think of a scenario where a piston strike would break a valve
>spring. Hmm... Also, I can't think of a scenario where a broken valve
>spring would cause a piston strike on the _other_ valve. Something is
>very strange here.
>
>Anyone else?
Sure.
Spring breaks, piston slaps valve , piston/valve breaks,
pieces rattle round......
What did the plug look like?
Rick
WayneB
you've put your finger right on the problem here. Fischer-Panda will
probably not admit it, but I view that generator as a light duty unit
designed for ocassional usage, not as a generator which is running
500+ hours a year. If you are really depending on having a reliable
generator to support a liveaboard lifestyle, you will be a LOT happier
in the long run if you get a more robust unit, preferably one that
runs at 1800 RPM instead of 3600. If you have the space and can get
the F-P running one more time, it might make a good back up unit to
the main generator. Just my 2 cents worth...
=================================================
Steve
enough into the cylinder that the piston drove it back into the intake port
and broke a hole into the the water jacket.
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Don W.
Without a tear down, no one will ever know. I based my "something
is strange" comment on his assertion that the valves were okay.
For both pushrods to be bent, he had to have both valves hit. Granted
that the second one could have been hit by a chunk of something on top
of the piston instead of the piston itself.
If it was me, I'd just pop the head off and have a look. In 15 minutes
all the mystery would be cleared up. Of course, he's working with a
warranty situation, so has to play by their rules.
Later,
Don W.
> Rick
Geoffrey W. Schultz
spring got under both of the rocker arms and that the push rods got bent
pushing against them?
I guess that it really doesn't matter until I get back down to the boat and
pull the head off. At this point it's just guessing. I was just thinking
that perhaps a simple solution would be to bring down the valves and rocker
assemblies and hope that would be all that was the matter.
-- Geoff
"Don W." <donw...@swbell.net> wrote in news:3E15C076...@swbell.net:
Mel
designs. (farm tractor experience)
Don W.
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote:
>
> Am I correct in guessing that another option would be that the broken
> spring got under both of the rocker arms and that the push rods got bent
> pushing against them?
I'm guessing "no"....
> I guess that it really doesn't matter until I get back down to the boat and
> pull the head off. At this point it's just guessing. I was just thinking
> that perhaps a simple solution would be to bring down the valves and rocker
> assemblies and hope that would be all that was the matter.
One can always hope. It certainly won't hurt anything to have spare valves,
rockers, and push rods on hand when you tear it down. I'd sure give it a
serious look over while its torn apart though. If the piston, cylinder walls,
and combustion chamber look good you could get off for a spring, pushrods, and
new head gasket (Best case scenario!). Good luck.
Don W.
RD
wrote:
>
>
>"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote:
>>
>> Am I correct in guessing that another option would be that the broken
>> spring got under both of the rocker arms and that the push rods got bent
>> pushing against them?
>
>I'm guessing "no"....
I think it unlikely as well.
I also think the mfg's comments about only seeing spring failures in
the first fifty hours is a meaningless data point. It may be accurate,
but it certainly is not indicative of when a marginal spring would
fail.
On another note, it appears Farymann single cylinder diesels were used
fairly extensively in sailboats over the years. It seems they have a
pretty good rep for simplicity and reliability in that application.
Rick
WayneB
>On another note, it appears Farymann single cylinder diesels were used
>fairly extensively in sailboats over the years. It seems they have a
>pretty good rep for simplicity and reliability in that application.
=================================================
If they were run 500+ hours per year at 3600 RPM, reliability would be
a little suspect in application also. The average sailboat aux gets
used less than 100 hours per year, many are used much less.
RD
No doubt. Many of the posts I saw related to twenty something year old
engines with 2K+ hours on them. I suspect they spent most of that time
around 2000 RPM, but really have no idea of the turn ratio in that
application.
Rick
Geoffrey W. Schultz
news:a91e1v859joa1a9ta...@4ax.com:
There's a huge difference between a cruiser's usage and the typical boat
that you see in a marina. When I primarily did US coastal cruising there
was no need for a genset. The engine drive could take care of my needs.
However, when you have to make water, run the refrig and charge the
batteries, your power demands are quite different. You either have large
solar banks, wind generators, both or a genset with some or all of the
prior. I'm adding a wind generator.
-- Geoff
WayneB
<schu...@ultranet.com> wrote:
>There's a huge difference between a cruiser's usage and the typical boat
>that you see in a marina. When I primarily did US coastal cruising there
>was no need for a genset. The engine drive could take care of my needs.
>
>However, when you have to make water, run the refrig and charge the
>batteries, your power demands are quite different. You either have large
>solar banks, wind generators, both or a genset with some or all of the
>prior. I'm adding a wind generator.
>
=====================================================
The wind generator is probably a good idea, as is a heavy duty
alternator with 3 stage charger if you don't already have one. For
your usage, the more redundancy the better, and with top quality,
heavy duty components. Unfortunately the F-P does not fall into that
category in my opinion, and your experience seems to bear it out.
I have a 3600 RPM generator on my boat that sees about 200 hours a
year of usage but it is a gas engine based on a marinized Kawasaki
motorcycle engine and probably red lined at about 9000 RPM. Your
Faryman diesel is most likely red lined around 3800 tops.
Anjo
wrote:
>Generators that produce 120vac must either run at 3600rpm or 1800rpm if the
>brushes are doubled up (this is done with higher quality sets such as
>Northern Lights.
Couldn't agree more!
Anjo
mail-1
>
>
Joe Della Barba N3HGB
Actually, depending on how you wind them, other RPMs are doable as
well. Some of the big gen sets run quite a bit slower than 1800 RPM. I
recall seeing 1200 and 900 RPM gen sets.
Another "new thing" is to run the gen set at any old frequency and use
an inverter for the final 50/60 Hz output.
I once worked on a boat that had 120 volt DC refrigeration that used a
120 volt alternator off the main engine. This made the whole setup
totally insensitive to engine RPMs.
Fischer Panda
have been posted on the internet regarding his 4kW Fischer Panda generator.
Mr. Schultz originally bought his Panda 4200 in August 1999 - 3.5 years ago.
Our warranty at that stage was 1 year on the engine, 4 years on the
generator and lifetime on the rotor.
We have never failed to respond or assist Mr. Schultz since he has acquired
his generator. The major failures have in our opinion been due to water
intrusion caused by incorrect operating procedures conducted by Mr Schultz -
specifically the over cranking of his generator without closing the sea
cock.
Most marine engines use sea-water in their cooling. The sea-water is pumped
into the heat exchanger (or directly into the engine water jacket) and then
into the exhaust manifold. The engine exhaust gases then expel the cooling
water. If an engine is repeatedly cranked and does not start, no exhaust
gases are produced, and the cooling water will continue to be dumped into
the exhaust manifold. Unless the sea cock is closed, the water will back up
until it enters the cylinder head and eventually the cylinder. An incorrect
exhaust installation can also cause this problem. There is generally not a
mechanical failure which can cause water intrusion. It is for this reason
this type of damage is excluded from warranty coverage by both Fischer Panda
Generators and all major marine engine and generator manufacturers. We have
repeatedly made Mr. Schultz aware of this fact.
To put this matter in some form of perspective, we have summarized, below,
some of the service support that we have provided Mr Schultz over the past
years:.
* September 1999 Generator Sound Shield dropped during installation.
Although we were not responsible for the installation we
changed the capsule and internal mounts free of charge
* August 2000. Generator returned to our factory. Found evidence of water
intrusion. Although no covered by warranty repaired free
of charge
* December 2001 - 27 months into warranty period. Mr. Schultz contacted us
complaining that the generator block was damaged.
Although out of warranty, we shipped a new engine to the Antilles at no
cost to Mr. Schultz. This was done as a gesture of goodwill and because of
the specific damage described by Mr. Schultz. When we received the failed
engine, however, inspection revealed no evidence of engine block damage. It
did reveal a poorly maintained generator with rusted and broken rings,
corroded valves. This damage clearly pointed to water intrusion due to
improper operating procedures. Had we been aware of the true nature of the
failure we may not have sent the replacement engine. We advised Mr. Schultz
of the true nature of the failure but did not receive any explanation as to
the mistaken diagnosis. Although the one year engine warranty has long
since expired (the generator is now 3 1/2 years old) we are continuing in
our efforts to resolve this issue with Mr. Schultz
In our most recent attempts to resolve this problem, we have proposed the
following to Mr. Schultz
1) As Mr. Schultz does not accept our assessment regarding the cause of
his engine failures, we have suggested that he appoint a mutually acceptable
arbitrator to investigate and rule on this matter. We would agree to abide
by the arbitrators decision. Mr. Schultz has rejected this proposal.
2) We have offered to fly Mr. Schultz to Fort Lauderdale, at our
expense, to show him the root cause of his failed engine and explain why the
failure is not covered under warranty. Mr. Schultz did not accept this
offer.
3) Finally in an attempt to resolve this matter, we offered to
exchange the Panda 4200 with an equivalent competitor generator. We offered
a generator other than a Panda because we believe that Mr. Schultz would not
be satisfied with a new Panda. Mr Schultz has failed to respond to our
offer.
Mr. Schultz has also chosen to pursue this matter through the courts. This
is the first time one of our customers has chosen the courts as a method of
resolving a perceived warranty problem. We regret that Mr .Schultz has
chosen this course of action, but we will confidently and vigorously defend
our position if required. However we are still hoping that Mr. Schultz will
come to appreciate our previous efforts in supporting him, and, our
sincerity in trying to resolve this problem.
Tony Rushton
CEO, Fischer Panda Generators
"Geoffrey W. Schultz" <schu...@ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92F74F807C47Cs...@63.240.76.16...
Fischer Panda
* September 1999 Generator Sound Shield dropped during installation.
Although we were not
Schultz
Schultz
Fischer Panda
Schultz
Schultz
news:Xns92F7C5F4F839Ds...@216.148.227.77...
Fischer Panda
Schultz
Schultz
news:Xns92F9797AACE1As...@204.127.199.17...
Fischer Panda
have been posted on the internet regarding his 4kW Fischer Panda generator.
Mr. Schultz originally bought his Panda 4200 in August 1999 - 3.5 years ago.
Our warranty at that stage was 1 year on the engine, 4 years on the
generator and lifetime on the rotor.
We have never failed to respond or assist Mr. Schultz since he has acquired
his generator. The major failures have in our opinion been due to water
intrusion caused by incorrect operating procedures conducted by Mr Schultz -
specifically the over cranking of his generator without closing the sea
cock.
Most marine engines use sea-water in their cooling. The sea-water is pumped
into the heat exchanger (or directly into the engine water jacket) and then
into the exhaust manifold. The engine exhaust gases then expel the cooling
water. If an engine is repeatedly cranked and does not start, no exhaust
gases are produced, and the cooling water will continue to be dumped into
the exhaust manifold. Unless the sea cock is closed, the water will back up
until it enters the cylinder head and eventually the cylinder. An incorrect
exhaust installation can also cause this problem. There is generally not a
mechanical failure which can cause water intrusion. It is for this reason
this type of damage is excluded from warranty coverage by both Fischer Panda
Generators and all major marine engine and generator manufacturers. We have
repeatedly made Mr. Schultz aware of this fact.
To put this matter in some form of perspective, we have summarized, below,
some of the service support that we have provided Mr Schultz over the past
years:.
of charge
Tony Rushton
CEO, Fischer Panda Generators
news:Xns92F74F807C47Cs...@63.240.76.16...
> As readers of this and other forums may recall, I have a Fischer Panda
> 4.2 KW generator that has been nothing but trouble. It utilizes a
> Farymann single cylinder 3600 RPM diesel motor. The generator has
> constantly failed due to a variety of issues. If you're interested in
> the history, you can read my original post at:
>
Ean Kingston,,,(416) 423-3770
wonder if they would be willing to provide me with a course on proper
engine maintainence and operation when it comes time for me to buy an
engine?
Any company that actually replaces a product AFTER the warrentee has expired
will certainly get looked at (by me) as a possible supplier.
sailor
Why don't you solve this like a pragmatic businessman and make him a happy and
quiet customer. I can see why he's pissed off - just from you're "I'm right and
we're gonna win" attitude.
Given that the FP gensets are way overpriced anyway, why don't you act like you
want to solve the problem rather than air all the dirty laundry in public. If
you reported to me, I'd fire you for stupidity.
Personally, I replaced my Onan 7.5 with a Northern Lights 8 several months ago -
because of the FP rumors and because I thought the FP dealer in Newport Beach
was a pedantic dickhead.
Fischer Panda wrote:
> Fischer Panda Generators would like to respond to Mr. Schultz' comments that
> have been posted on the internet regarding his 4kW Fischer Panda generator.
> Mr. Schultz originally bought his Panda 4200 in August 1999 - 3.5 years ago.
> Our warranty at that stage was 1 year on the engine, 4 years on the
> generator and lifetime on the rotor.
>
> Blah hacked out .........
Skipper
> You're really stupid to drag this out in public AND admit that he's sueing
> you. Why don't you solve this like a pragmatic businessman and make him a
> happy and quiet customer. I can see why he's pissed off - just from you're
> "I'm right and we're gonna win" attitude.
There's pretty good history over this issue documented in the Google
archives. Believe the consensus was *not* to do business with Fischer
Panda because of poor customer service. Check it out.
--
Skipper
Peter Wiley
>You're really stupid to drag this out in public AND admit that he's sueing you.
>Why don't you solve this like a pragmatic businessman and make him a happy and
>quiet customer. I can see why he's pissed off - just from you're "I'm right and
>we're gonna win" attitude.
*IF* what they say is correct, I can't see how it's all their fault.
It's possible that their customer is one of those people who aren't
worth having as a customer.
Given that they've offered to swap out the genset for another brand,
what more would you want them to do? Give a lifetime guarantee on
something, regardless of how it's used?
I used to run a software consultancy, and had no hesitation in telling
some clients that I simply didn't want their business, because they
were a revenue loss to me. Did me no harm to shed them, either.
As I say, IF what they say is correct, I'd do the same thing. Why
should a company do whatever they can to keep an unhappy customer
quiet, if the cause of the unhappiness is none of their doing? That
direction leads to all sorts of problems.
Peter Wiley
Daniel E. Best
the owner has filed over the years (and for what).
Oz1 wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2003 04:15:28 GMT, ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger)
> wrote:
>
> >I think it was of their making.
> >
> >My analysis, if I recall correctly, is that one of their authorized dealers
> >both dropped the set during installation and then both refused to replace it
> >and did the installation.
> >
> >That, if true (it was an authorized dealer), makes any installation-related
> >problems Panda's, in my opinion, and further makes any attempt to duck same
> >on their part sleazy beyond belief.
> >
> >If they think there's an installation related problem they should get this
> >guy to a dealer who actually knows what he's doing, have him correct the
> >problem(s), and send this guy on his way - at their cost.
> >
> >--
>
> Karl, I haven't followed the story however, from what I gather the
> unit was repaired after the dropping by whomever and was put into
> service.
> If the owner wasn't happy at that stage he should have objected.
> The unit was subsequently repaired at various times free of charge and
> still the owner complains.
>
> It appears to me that the manufacturer is still trying to rectify the
> situation even offering to replace with another unit from a different
> manufacturer but is still getting the cold shoulder from the owner.
>
> Too stuborn for his own good methinks.
>
> Oz1...of the 3 twins.
> I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.
--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://home.attbi.com/~rangerbest/TriciaJean.JPG
Jere Lull
>On 12 Feb 2003 04:15:28 GMT, ka...@FS.Denninger.Net (Karl Denninger)
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>I think it was of their making.
>>
>>My analysis, if I recall correctly, is that one of their authorized dealers
>>both dropped the set during installation and then both refused to replace it
>>and did the installation.
>>
>>That, if true (it was an authorized dealer), makes any installation-related
>>problems Panda's, in my opinion, and further makes any attempt to duck same
>>on their part sleazy beyond belief.
>>
>>If they think there's an installation related problem they should get this
>>guy to a dealer who actually knows what he's doing, have him correct the
>>problem(s), and send this guy on his way - at their cost.
>>
>>
>
>Karl, I haven't followed the story however, from what I gather the
>unit was repaired after the dropping by whomever and was put into
>service.
>If the owner wasn't happy at that stage he should have objected.
>The unit was subsequently repaired at various times free of charge and
>still the owner complains.
>
>It appears to me that the manufacturer is still trying to rectify the
>situation even offering to replace with another unit from a different
>manufacturer but is still getting the cold shoulder from the owner.
>
>Too stuborn for his own good methinks.
>
>
I *have* been following the thread and I think you've gotten the gist.
1) He's trying to get them to fix a 4 year old generator.
2) They've offered to replace it with someone else's brand to get him
out of their hair, even though they have pretty good evidence that much
or most of the problem has been "operator error" (and I suspect lack of
proper maintenance from some of the things the complainer said).
3) He's suing rather than take the offer of a new generator.
Sounds like someone more interested in hurting others than getting the
problem solved.
I also suspect the original drop was probably more of a dented enclosure
than anything else. Diesels are pretty tough. You're not going to "bend"
the block or any of the internals; they break first, and that would have
been pretty obvious pretty fast..
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
DS King
> >If they think there's an installation related problem they should get this
> >guy to a dealer who actually knows what he's doing, have him correct the
> >problem(s), and send this guy on his way - at their cost.
> >
From what I've been reading, the problem is three-fold
1- the genset was damaged before purchase and it was not installed properly
2- the manufacturer made an ineffective effort to set things right despite
evidence of operator error
3- neither the customer nor the dealer/installer ought to be allowed to operate
machinery more complex than a toothbrush
>
>
> Oz1 wrote:
> Karl, I haven't followed the story however, from what I gather the
> unit was repaired after the dropping by whomever and was put into
> service.
> If the owner wasn't happy at that stage he should have objected.
> The unit was subsequently repaired at various times free of charge and
> still the owner complains.
In a way I don't blame him if the f#&@ing thing doesn't work right. However, he
does sound like the sort of customer who is best avoided.
>
>
> It appears to me that the manufacturer is still trying to rectify the
> situation even offering to replace with another unit from a different
> manufacturer but is still getting the cold shoulder from the owner.
Irrational behavior all the way around, what do you expect from human beings?
However, as a mild defense of Fischer-Panda, it can be *very* difficult for a
central manufacturer to ensure that all their dealers & field techs are even
competent, much less expert. I spent a good deal of time chasing warranty
documentation and found it enfuriating how many banana-fingered morons are out
there "fixing" high-tech equipment on the corporate nickel. What's worse is that
there is often a bit of good-ol'-boy-ism involved, so it can be all but
impossible to get them out of the loop. Which is one reason why I honor no
warranty but my own, these days.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
TobagoFlyr
fact that he is now suing reinforces that feeling.
I am certainly more willing to consider a Panda purchase in the future after
hearing from the factory on this newsgroup. It shows a lot of guts, and proves
they are not trying to duck and hide.
By the way, the problem as described by Tony Rushton of Panda appears to be
what is going on with my freshwater cooled Mercruisers. Water intrusion
through the exhaust system. I can only hope Mercruiser is as helpful 4 years
down the way as Panda has claimed to be.
Ted Edwards
Chatham Bound
Richard
Got water in the oil, lifter bays, and heads. Ruined the entire motor. No
help from Mercruiser, no help from the insurance company.
Got a different motor, did not buy it from Mercruiser. There was a question
of whether I had maintained it properly, and I admit I was off by a season
replacing he gaskets. It just never occurred to me these gaskets would
fail. When they went, they went big. It was just one weekend cruise, and
the motor was toast.
I can accept my part in it, but it sure seems odd that an experienced marine
motor manufacturer can't design a motor that will keep water out.
Don't see too many Mercruiser parts in my future.
R
<snip>
"TobagoFlyr" <tobag...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030212091743...@mb-mq.aol.com...
Don W.
I'd like to know a little more about your 5.7 litre problem because
I own a 1996 Maxum with the same motor. At what age did the exhaust
gasket fail? When do they recommend changing
them? How did you notice that you had water in the oil?
More importantly, how did water get into your engine from an
exhaust gasket failure?
When I get back to the boat I'll get the engine manual out and see
what it says, but its not available without a trip to the marina.
Don W.
Richard
checked the oil for water every time, and changed on much shorter intervals
than required. I also shimed a flashlight into the valve covers, looking
for gum or crud. Always spotless. My flaw was using an oil that was too
good for the marine market. I was using Castrol 5-50 enhanced fully
synthetic. I was so slick it wouldn't stay on the cylinder walls, lifter
valleys, etc. It just drained off, completely.
I noticed a problem when I was starting up after a night at the dock. Just
that hesitation on initial rollup. Later, there were a few backfires at
cruising speed. I thought it was time to change the distributor. Starting
was a problem, the hesitation turned to a balk, but I still suspected the
distributor. I dropped it off at the (good) FAT for a comp check and a new
distributor -- I couldn't get the cap off, as the screws has siezed. That's
common enough, but I was getting a little worried.
Water gets in from the riser gaskets on the gooseneck to manifold
connection. In short order, sea water can eat a tiny pinhole in the riser,
and the gasket weakens. ESPECIALLY if there is a bad ground in the marina.
Sea water naturally flows down into the engine. Just a few drops can wreck
havok with an engine. Water drains down into the engine into an open
cylinder, valve, piston, whatever is avail. If it's a few drops, it blows
right out on startup. It will get worse as time goes on, but you won't
notice it untill its a way big problem. You'll notice the damage, not the
problem.
If you leave the boat sit for any length of time, I would drain the
manifolds. It's two little plastic plugs under the middle of the manifold,
on each side. It's in the manual. You do have an up to date factor
maintenance manual? I (now) do. I thought I was taking good care of the
engine, but I wasn't up to speed on those gaskets.
R
<snip>
"Don W." <donw...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3E4B1F2E...@swbell.net...
TobagoFlyr
writes:
>Improper installation is the root cause of most water intrusion problems.
>
>That SHOULD be eaten by the manufacturer, including corrections, assuming the
>
>installation of (whatever - engine or generator) is done by someone who is
>FACTORY AUTHORIZED to do so.
>
Yes, you are correct, and Pursuit has been re-doing all affected boats at their
expense. Unfortunately, they had a hard time convincing Mercruiser that their
exhaust system was partly to blame. I understand no failures have occurred
with Volvo and Crusader. Apparently Mercruiser used the same risers as on
their non-fuel injected engines and did not see the problem coming. I tried to
talk to 2 different people at Mercruiser about the issue, and they acted like
they had never heard of such a thing.
Pursuit has since severed relations with Mercruiser on new boats. Part of the
delay has been availability of redesigned parts from Mercruiser. My boat along
with about a half dozen others in the yard will all receive, from
Pursuit/Mercruiser new exhaust systems, risers, and manifolds. Part of this
procedure is to inspect engines for signs of water intrusion. Some boats are
fine, others have failed in the field already. Apparently a lot of what is
going on depends on how they are used.
My boat was put on the hard in November. I was told by Pursuit that when the
engine/exhaust mod kits arrived, they would begin tearing down and replacing
all effected components. At that time they would let me know the status of any
engine damage.
Coincidently, I got the call yesterday, two new engines will be installed by my
Pursuit dealer before the end of March. Inspection revealed enough damage that
my dealer was able to convince Mercruiser it was pay up time.
I cannot say enough positive about my dealer and Pursuits attitude regarding
this problem. They came to me and said they wanted to do this program over the
winter, all at their expense. I was experiencing no trouble whatsoever on my
500 hour engines. Because some customers had lost time out of their summer
season last year, they made it a priority to fix this potential issue.
Do I wish it never happened? Yes.
Do I blame Pursuit? No.
Do I blame Mercruiser? Some. Shit happens, it is how you handle the problem
when it does. But I will go out of my way to avoid Mercruiser in the near
future. They did their best to say nothing was wrong, go away.
Getting back to Panda, I think they did more than what should be expected from
a reasonable customer. And 4 years later they still seem to be trying. I
think it's the lawsuit that sent me over to the other side. But that is just
my opinion.
Ted Edwards
Chatham Bound
Richard
R
<snip>
"TobagoFlyr" <tobag...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030213110623...@mb-cg.aol.com...
Mark Reichow
but I don't want a generator that NEEDS to be repeatedly fixed or
replaced. All I ask is for RELIABLE equipment on my boat. I've got a
1989 "iron beast", a 4kw Kohler with a 2 cyl, 6.7 hp Yanmar on the
front end. It's got over 4000 hrs on it and still going strong. Sure
it's heavy, and it's not as quiet as some, but it's reliable. These
quite generators are VERY quite when they don't work.
John
I'd stay away from that 5/50 synthetic, too light. That lower number
needs to be higher. You get a lot of oil flow out of the light stuff,
but under a load, it probably won't hold out for long. First sign that
it's not working well is ticking from the top end.
Richard
Like I said, it wasn't the viscosity, it was the water. That motor went 100
miles with two quarts of sea water in it. I still belileve synth is great
oil, it just isn't great boat oil.
A similar issue (HL, back me up here) was with Aero Shell, or Mobil Aero.
The engines sat, the oil drained down, and the blocks rusted out. At least
rust and accelerated wear, so bad they had to be replaced early. Big legal
stuff goin' on there, because of, I belileve, fitness for use issues.
Naw, the oil did it's job; performed well under extreme conditions. It just
wans't right for the purpose.
R
<snip>
"Karl Denninger" <ka...@FS.Denninger.Net> wrote in message
news:b2jc6c$hm$0...@pita.alt.net...
>
> In article <177be6e6.03021...@posting.google.com>,
> John <jsca...@parker.com> wrote:
> >
> >I'd stay away from that 5/50 synthetic, too light. That lower number
> >needs to be higher. You get a lot of oil flow out of the light stuff,
> >but under a load, it probably won't hold out for long. First sign that
> >it's not working well is ticking from the top end.
>
> Or banging from the bottom end :)
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
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