Do I really want to buy a diesel powered boat?
Tarek Korraa
Trophy sportfisher with 220hp Hino's, about 800 hours. The owner turned on
the motors for me, they turned on right away and after a short period of
smoking (about 2 mins), it cleared up. The engines sounded very smooth.
Then I read an article on the internet by a guy called David Pascoe, a
marine surveyor, and he just pans diesels, saying they're only necessary for
boats 36' feet and up, that you don't get the hours out of them that people
believe, not as safe as they're thought to be, that they're incredibly
expensive to maintain and even more so to replace.
He advises very highly to buy gas engines, saying that the money spent on
extra gas consumption would actually be less than the cost of buying and
maintaining diesels. Here's a link to his essay:
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasNdiesel.htm
Any thoughts or experiences on this? What about Hino 220's? He's got me
scared!
Tarek
Lew Hodgett
<snip>
> Any thoughts or experiences on this? What about Hino 220's? He's got me
> scared!
I'm totally unimpressed by your supposed expert's opinion.
Remember Ralph Nader's book, "Unsafe At Any Speed", about the 1960 Corvair?
Those are my sentiments about ANY gasoline powered boat. A gasoline powered
boat is a potential BOMB waiting to explode.
About every month to two months, the local news reports a boat that has
caught on fire, as a result of a fuel accident.
Personally, I absolutely refuse to get on any inboard, gasoline powered
boat.
If you want an eye opener, check with your insurance agent about the cost
difference in premiums for a diesel Vs: a gasoline powered boat of the same
size.
BTW, that boat isn't by chance in SoCal, knew a gut who had one.
HTH
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for pictures
There are no problems, only varying degrees of challenging opportunity
John
>......the money spent on
>extra gas consumption would actually be less than the cost of buying
and
>maintaining diesels.
A lot of folks don't much like Dave Pascoe, because he doesn't
routinely say what people want to hear.
The fact is, that unless you're planning on several hundred, perhaps
over a thousand, hours per year, there is just no way that the cost of
diesels can be justified economically. Initial install, routine
maintenance, operational failure, fuel consumption, overhaul and
replacement cost ---- no matter how you structure the equations, the
diesel cannot justify it's own existence in a recreational boating
environment until you start running 3-4 hours per day, 7/52, and then
it sort of stops being recreational, doesn't it?.
There's a fellow on the Trawler World List who runs a large Tollycraft
with twin big-block Chryslers. He's run these numbers six ways to
Sunday, and just can't find any reason at all to change.
When you input subjective factors, such as a previous poster's
opinions on gasoline powered boats, then the balance perhaps shifts --
that's your individual call. But the fact remains immutable:
gasoline powered boats have been running for a long, long time, and
while the storage of gasoline does require more care than that of
diesel fuel, the great preponderance of gasoline related fires or
explosions on boats can be directly related either to carelessness or
improper maintenance.
Regards,
John Gaquin
m/v Brefnie Queen
32' Luhrs
Lloyd Sumpter
If you're buying a diesel strictly for economy, I'd say it would be
at best a close call. But there's no way they're as dangerous as gas!
I've had diesel in the bilge of Far Cove - can you imagine GAS in the
bilge? No way. And the diesel in Far Cove has been running for 15 years
with little more than filters and an oil change once a year. They're
also easier to diagnose: if they're getting fuel, they run. Simple as
that (barring catastrophic failure, loss of compression, etc.)
David Pascoe has a rep of being, well, contraversial. I agree with
some of the stuff he says, but not all. Ask around the docks: you can
smell the ones with diesels: ask them. One point: I've known LOTS of
people repowering from gas to diesel, but none the other way round (but
Pascoe would argue that he's smarter than all of them!)
Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36
sb1963
fuel is relatively cheap there, so the initial higher investment for a diesel
does not pay out based on fuel economy (at least in a recreational boat). In
Europe (and I think also in Asia), where fuel is much more expensive gasoline
powered boats are almost non-existent. The fuel economy of a diesel balances
the additional initial investment, so if you add the reliability, safety and
long life of a diesel, the decision is a no-brainer.
Tim Chapman
diesel, (not allowed to put it in your car). There are petrol engines in
boats here but they are very much the exception, (being a millionaire helps
ease the burden).
Diesel engines, routinely, maintained simply do not let you down. I think
this is primarily due to the absence of an electrical ignition.
I any many of my peers would have no interest in a boat with a petrol
engine, (perhaps if it had two).
"Tarek Korraa" <kor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OH976.1281$mX.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
bapp...@my-deja.com
I am a firm believer in diesel, some of my arguments may not apply
to you however (the last 2 points):
Petrol (gas) is highly flamable and therefore must be treated
with more care (I have seen a boat "blow up" after a leak developed
in the tank). Diesel is not as flamable.
Petrol engines have a lot of electronics required to run, these
corrode in the salty damp enviornment of a boat leading to a
maintaince nightmare, diesel maintaince is comparatively easy.
In Ireland (where I live) marine diesel is much cheaper than petrol
(about quarter the price - due to the tax system) and then it uses
less of it.
In my area there is no petrol outlet on a marina and carrying that
amount of fuel down a pier is painful!
I realise that the last 2 points may not apply - but check it!
I have seen people unable to sell petrol boats in the last few
years as people don't want to buy them.
I have read the linked site and see that he points to factors
that I probably don't know as much as he knows about, but is seems
like scare mongering to me.
On the total cost of ownership, IMHO he is talking crap! You will
also get more when you sell the boat cancelling out the initial
cost of purchase, and most of the maintaince can be done by yourself
it is so simple.
Bill
In article <OH976.1281$mX.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
LaBomba182
>From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net
>Diesels require more maintenance. Don't maintain them and you'll pay
>bigtime.
What extra routine maintenance do they require over a gas engine?
>D
iesels also like to be used. Don't use them and you'll pay too.
And gas engines like to sit unused?
>Use them frequently (at least once a week to full
operating temperature and
>reasonable load) and maintain them properly (by the book, no exceptions) and
>you'll love them.
>
>Abuse them and you'll wonder where the vacuum cleaner set to full "suck"
>came from that empties your wallet.
>
Same can be said from gas engines.
>Gas engines are much cheaper to buy and maintain. They suck gas like no
>tomorrow though. Expect them to burn almost twice as much fuel as diesels
>for equivalent horsepower output.
>
>Whatever you intend to do GET A SURVEY BEFORE BUYING. That's REQUIRED.
>
>--
>--
>Karl Denninger
Capt. Bill
Justin Thyme
what are your credentials?
Lew Hodgett wrote in message ...
Keith
you maintain a gasoline system properly, it need not be any more
dangerous than a diesel. Diesel will always be safer, but that shouldn't
be the primary decision point. If you're going to use the heck out of
your boat, running it for long periods at a time, diesel will serve you
better. Diesel costs less than gasoline, and has more chemical energy,
thus giving you more mileage per gallon as well. If you're going to
start up the boat and run her for an hour or two at a time, gasoline
would probably be a better choice, for reasons folks have already
mentioned in here. If you've found a boat you like, and it has diesels
in it, no reason NOT to buy it, as long as they are in good shape (read:
SURVEY!) I bet if you found a similar boat with gas engines, it'd be
cheaper, although no guarantee. Good luck!
Karl Denninger wrote:
>
> Diesels require more maintenance. Don't maintain them and you'll pay
> bigtime.
>
> Diesels also like to be used. Don't use them and you'll pay too.
>
> Use them frequently (at least once a week to full operating temperature and
> reasonable load) and maintain them properly (by the book, no exceptions) and
> you'll love them.
>
> Abuse them and you'll wonder where the vacuum cleaner set to full "suck"
> came from that empties your wallet.
>
> Gas engines are much cheaper to buy and maintain. They suck gas like no
> tomorrow though. Expect them to burn almost twice as much fuel as diesels
> for equivalent horsepower output.
>
> Whatever you intend to do GET A SURVEY BEFORE BUYING. That's REQUIRED.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
> http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective Consulting Solutions
> http://childrens-justice.org SIGN THE UPREPA PETITION AT THIS SITE TODAY!
>
> In article <OH976.1281$mX.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> Tarek Korraa <kor...@earthlink.net> wrote:
John
Lloyd Sumpter wrote in message <3A5D4ED8...@home.com>...
>
> One point: I've known LOTS of
>people repowering from gas to diesel, but none the other way round
Of course nobody switches from diesel to gas!!! Duh! If you already
own the diesel engines, you've already passed the single biggest
hurdle to diesel ownership. Almost everything else about normal
diesel operation is competitive with or beats gas, until it's time for
overhaul or replacement. No one argues the operational efficiency of
diesels, only that the initial cost is so damned high that it almost
never is offset by the fuel savings.
Lloyd Sumpter
maintenance I do is fuel filters and oil change once a year, and sometimes I
forget that (ya otta see the oil that comes out after being in a diesel for two
years!). I had the exhaust replaced about 7 years ago, replaced both water pumps
last year, and intend to replace the heat exchanger this spring.
I've ran it without water a few times (various reasons) and overheated it to
the point that the paint was starting to smoke. There's often several months
(usually Nov and Dec) where I don't run it at all, then I'll fire it up in the
middle of winter and go sailing. I've run it WOT for hours on end.
And it's a Universal: with a rep for being, well, not the best diesel money
can buy...(I think things have changed now that they're Westerbeke, though.)
So my experience is the exact opposite of yours: I'd say you can abuse a
diesel, ignore the maintenance, and they still run. Just keep the fuel clean and
the starting battery charged.
The only thing is: parts cost more. Replacing both water pumps set me back
almost $1000CDN (most of that labour). And replacing the engine is basically Not
An Option. (if it was gas, it would have been replaced by a bigger engine years
ago)
Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36
Karl Denninger wrote:
>
> Diesels require more maintenance. Don't maintain them and you'll pay
> bigtime.
>
> Diesels also like to be used. Don't use them and you'll pay too.
>
> Use them frequently (at least once a week to full operating temperature and
> reasonable load) and maintain them properly (by the book, no exceptions) and
> you'll love them.
>
> Abuse them and you'll wonder where the vacuum cleaner set to full "suck"
> came from that empties your wallet.
>
> Gas engines are much cheaper to buy and maintain. They suck gas like no
> tomorrow though. Expect them to burn almost twice as much fuel as diesels
> for equivalent horsepower output.
>
> Whatever you intend to do GET A SURVEY BEFORE BUYING. That's REQUIRED.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
> http://www.denninger.net Cost-effective Consulting Solutions
> http://childrens-justice.org SIGN THE UPREPA PETITION AT THIS SITE TODAY!
>
> In article <OH976.1281$mX.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> Tarek Korraa <kor...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Roberta_bob
Lorenna's little sister.
"Karl Denninger" <ka...@FS.Denninger.net> wrote in message
news:93l7nm$q8h$0...@dosa.alt.net...
>
> In article <20010111094553...@ng-cd1.aol.com>,
> LaBomba182 <labom...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>Subject: Re: Do I really want to buy a diesel powered boat?
> >>From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net
> >
> >>Diesels require more maintenance. Don't maintain them and you'll pay
> >>bigtime.
> >
> >What extra routine maintenance do they require over a gas engine?
>
> The issue isn't about what other maintenance they require, its about what
> you can get away with.
>
> Marginal cooling will work with a gas engine. Do that with a diesel and
> you'll crack the cylinder head(s) (and get a big bill)
>
> AT LEAST HALF of all diesel engine failurs in boats are due to cooling
> system failures - usually gunked up heat exchangers or coolers. Even MILD
> overheats will trash a diesel. Gas engines can suffer repeated moderate
> overheats without catastrophic damage.
>
> Deferred maintenance on a diesel will lead to catastrophic damage. The
same
> on a gas engine is bad, but not AS bad.
>
> >
>D
> >iesels also like to be used. Don't use them and you'll pay too.
> >
> >And gas engines like to sit unused?
>
> No, but the engine overhaul on a gas motor can be done three times for
what
> one diesel overhaul will require. Among other things few (if any) gas
> enignes in boats are turbocharged - nearly ALL boat diesels are (at least
> in high performance applications)
>
> > >Use them frequently (at least once a week to
full
> >operating temperature and
> >>reasonable load) and maintain them properly (by the book, no exceptions)
and
> >>you'll love them.
> >>
> >>Abuse them and you'll wonder where the vacuum cleaner set to full "suck"
> >>came from that empties your wallet.
> >>
> >Same can be said from gas engines.
>
> You can buy a NEW gas long block for half what a single diesel overhaul
will
> cost. You can overhaul a gas engine three times (two overhauls and one
> replacement) for what it will cost to overhaul that diesel ONCE.
>
> Few marine diesels get to 2,000 hours without problems. The ones that do
> are naturally aspirated, low-power, slow-turning engines - or moderate
> powered ones that are run nearly 24x7 in work boats. Recreational diesels
> often blow up before 2,000 hours. A gas engine will last almost as long.
>
> >>Gas engines are much cheaper to buy and maintain. They suck gas like no
> >>tomorrow though. Expect them to burn almost twice as much fuel as
diesels
> >>for equivalent horsepower output.
> >>
> >
> >>Whatever you intend to do GET A SURVEY BEFORE BUYING. That's REQUIRED.
> >>
> >>--
> >>--
> >>Karl Denninger
> >
> > Capt. Bill
>
LaBomba182
>From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net
>>>Diesels require more maintenance. Don't maintain them and you'll pay
>>>bigtime.
>>
>>What extra routine maintenance do they require over a gas engine?
>The issue isn't about what other maintenance they require, its about what
>you can get away with.
Thats not what your first statement said. You said
>>>Diesels require more maintenance. Don't maintain them and you'll pay
>>>bigtime.
What "more maintenance are you talking about?
>Marginal
cooling will work with a gas engine. Do that with a diesel and
>you'll crack the cylinder head(s) (and get a big bill)
"Marginal cooling" will work in a diesel just like it will in a gas engine. The
engine will run hot at high RPMs but if you slow down it will run cooler just
like in a gas boat.
>AT LEAST HALF of all diesel engine
failurs in boats are due to cooling
>system failures - usually gunked up heat exchangers or coolers.
Do to poor maintenance by there owners. Again this rarely happens out of the
blue. There are symptoms of coolers going bad that a knowledgable owner should
be able to spot. Also while I am not saying you are incorrect, I would still
like to know your source for your statement that "AT LEAST HALF of all diesel
engine failurs in boats are due to cooling
system failures"
>Even MILD
>overheats will trash a diesel. Gas engines can suffer repeated moderate
>overheats without catastrophic damage.
Both statements depend alot on the engine type. A Ford Lehman can be over
heated many times and still run fine. A high output big block gas engine can
not be.
>Deferred
maintenance on a diesel will lead to catastrophic damage. The same
>on a gas engine is bad, but not AS bad.
BS, Deferred maintenance can be catastrophic on any type of engine.
>>D
>>iesels also like to be used. Don't use them and you'll pay too.
>>
>>And gas engines like to sit unused?
>
>No, but the engine overhaul on a gas motor can be done three times for what
>one diesel overhaul will require.
True, but if you maintain the diesel you may
never have to rebuild it in your boating life time.
>Among other things few (if any) gas
>enignes in boats are turbocharged - nearly ALL boat diesels are (at least
>in high performance applications)
First part is true, I don`t think the second part is not true if you include
sailboats and trawlers. And you did say "nearly ALL boat diesels".
>>Use them frequently (at least once a week to full
>>operating temperature and
>>>reasonable load) and maintain them properly (by the book, no exceptions)
>and
>>>you'll love them.
>>>
>>>Abuse them and you'll wonder
>where the vacuum cleaner set to full "suck"
>>>came from that empties your wallet.
>>>
>>Same can be said from gas engines.
>You can buy a NEW gas long block for half what a single diesel overhaul will
>cost. You can overhaul a gas engine three times (two overhauls and one
>replacement) for what it will cost to overhaul that diesel ONCE.
Like I said, if
you maintain the diesel you may not have to rebuild it in your boating life
time. And if you think that is not true, all I can say is that I just got back
from MTU school and the engine hours I can expect to see on the 1150 HP turbo
charged diesel engines that will be in the new boat before they MAY need to be
rebuilt are, now get this 6000Hrs, as in 15-30 years of pleasure use.
>Few marine diesels get
to 2,000 hours without problems. The ones that do
>are naturally aspirated, low-power, slow-turning engines - or moderate
>powered ones that are run nearly 24x7 in work boats. Recreational diesels
>often blow up before 2,000 hours.
BS again. It comes down to proper maintenance. Of course abused and neglected
engines fail prematurely.
>Recreational diesels
>often blow up before 2,000 hours.
By the way what is your real word day to day experance
with diesels that lets you make these kinds of statements? We just rebuilt the
12V-71s in the current boat and they had will over 2000 Hrs on them. And they
do not get day in day out use.
>A gas engine will last almost as long.
Some may, some may not. Most will not if the owner tries your "what you can get
away with." style of maintenance.
>>>Gas engines are much cheaper to buy and maintain.
First part is right. I think we could keep arguing the last. :-)
>They suck gas like no
>>>tomorrow though. Expect them to burn almost twice as much fuel as diesels
>>>for equivalent horsepower output.
>>>Whatever you intend to do GET A SURVEY BEFORE BUYING. That's REQUIRED.
>>>
Well at least you got something right. :-)
Capt. Bill
Glenn Ashmore
marine engines are NOT turbocharged.
And second, as far as longevity goes. I can't say much about marine diesels but I
have a 1979 Mercedes diesel that will roll over 700,000 sometime next month. In 22
years I have done nothing to it other than change oil and replace the rubber.
Third, while I realize that internal combustion engines of any kind don't like
sitting idle, I also have a 30 year old Cummins powered back hoe that gets used
about 4 times a year, gets an oil change every 2 or 3 years and once had a clogged
injector. It still runs fime. (I use the battery out of the Mercedes.) .
The Yanmar 4JH3 is going to cost about twice what a marinized gas engine would but I
consider the difference worth every penny.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of)
at: http://www.mindspring.com/~gashmore
Peggy Carr
I'd go out there on the weekend, I'd put maybe 6 or 8 hours on it, come back
and stop at the fuel dock, put $80 worth of gasoline into the tank. Now I have
a 1991 Bayliner 3288 with twin 140 Hinos. I go out on the weekend and put maybe
6 or 8 hours on it, and then go out the next weekend, and then the next, and
then on the next weekend after cruising I stop at the fuel dock and put $80
worth of diesel into the tanks. The hairs on the back of my neck do NOT stand
up on end when I start up the engines after refueling. If you are looking for
an inexpensive boat and don't intend to put much time on it, gas is okay but
not as safe. At 800 hours on a gasoline engine, you have maybe another 200
hours of "easy running" before you need some major work. At 800 hours on a
diesel you've broken it in.
Think about the kind of boating you're doing: if all you're doing is running
down to the cove for an overnight, or across to the other shore to tie up, gas
is probably fine, and certainly cheaper to buy the gasoline boat. If you're
going to do any CRUISING, and are concerned about safety, diesel is in order.
Peggy Carr
PrinceMyshkin
light.
But consider this. Friend has a sailboat with gasoline fuelled Atomic 4. Loved
that engine, he did. Had it rebuilt too. Added fresh water cooling, electronic
ignition, etc. I'm not talking twenty years ago. This was last year. But after
one too many times cleaning gasoline out of the bilge he ripped that lovely
out and sold it for a mere $400. This was virtually a brand new up-to-date
engine. Then he went to the Annapolis Boat Show and bought on the spot a
Yanmar diesel for about $5,600. This is going into a 1967 boat.
Well, you guys can argue all you want about the relative merits of diesel vs.
gasoline on boats, but there is just no contest. Nobody ever saw a
diesel-powered boat blow up at the fuel dock. These are not cars, people. The
fumes do not dribble away from under the vehicle. They accumulate in the
bilge. Same with your oil leak. You don't drive away from the parking place
and leave it there and dribble it invisibly on the highway. It stays with you.
Not that that has anything to do with diesel vs. gasoline. Just means if you
have an oil leak you must fix it.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Brian O'C
for marine surveyors in the pleasure boat market as I do for house
inspectors. Wait til they do something wrong and try to get it remedied via
suing their EO&E insurance carrier, if they have one.
Hino are about the most bullet proof engines in the marketplace. It is not
un-common for them to go over 8000+ hours provided they are properly
maintained in accordance with the manufacturers spec's. Bayliner and Hino
were a perfect match for years until a financial arrangement was made with
Cummins and US Marine.
Although the inital cost of diesel is greater, I still beleive having owned
many gas powered boats, they are worth the additional capital cost.
You may want to view the following website:www.bocweb.org
Lloyd Sumpter
>
> In article <20010111094553...@ng-cd1.aol.com>,
> LaBomba182 <labom...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net
> >
> >>Diesels require more maintenance. Don't maintain them and you'll pay
> >>bigtime.
> >
> >What extra routine maintenance do they require over a gas engine?
>
> you can get away with.
>
> you'll crack the cylinder head(s) (and get a big bill)
>
as I said, sometimes so hot the paint's smoking, and it's still going
strong.
With the abuse I've given my diesel, a gas engine would have croaked
long ago!
Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36 - no overhauls in 15 years....
LaBomba182
>From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net
>The hell it will. A diesel engine that "runs hot" will crack heads and do
>other ugly things. The amount of heat dissipated on a turbodiesel is VASTLY
>beyond that on gas engines.
Over heating rarely happens instantaneously. If you catch it and slow down
you`r usually OK. You seem to keep making it out that if any diesel ever runs
hot you`re screwed.
>>Even MILD
>>>overheats will trash a diesel. Gas engines can suffer repeated moderate
>>>overheats without catastrophic damage.
>>
>>Both statements depend alot on the engine type. A Ford Lehman can be over
>>heated many times and still run fine. A high output big block gas engine can
>>not be.
>Nobody pulls the kind of power for displacement out of gas engines (except
>for "go fast" penis extensions) that is ROUTINELY pulled out of marine
>diesels.
Yes, but till now you were generalizing. And I have been trying to point
out that you`r statements are not true for all diesels.
>True, but if you maintain the diesel you may
>>never have to rebuild it in your boating life time.
>
>You're dreaming.
>
>The dreams about 5,000+ hours on high performance diesels (which is what all
>but a few in recreational use are) is a MYTH. MOST of these engines will not
>reach 2000 hours without serious problems.
>
>Gas engines are, surprisingly, good for almost the same amount of time (if
>FWC) as a marine diesel in ACTUAL use.
>
OK, lets say you
are right and you only get 2000 hours out of a diesel. Most pirvate boats get
used what 100-150 hours a year. 2000 divided by 100 = 20 years, 2000 divided by
150 = almost 13.5 years. Like I said " True, but if you maintain the diesel you
may
never have to rebuild it in your boating life time." Or depending on your age
maybe I should say for the time you will own the boat.
>>>Among other things few (if any) gas
>>>enignes in boats are turbocharged - nearly ALL boat diesels are (at least
>>>in high performance applications)
>>
>>First part is true, I don`t think the second part is not true if you include
>>sailboats and trawlers. And you did say "nearly ALL boat diesels".
>
>
>Yes, I did. Sailboats and trawlers are not anywhere near a plurality; many
>sailboats have external kickers or gas.
>
>>
I was obviously not talking about
small sail boats with kickers.
>>Use them frequently (at least once
a week to full
>>>>operating temperature and
>>>>>reasonable load) and maintain them properly (by the book, no exceptions)
>>>and
>>>>>you'll love them.
>>>>>
>>>>>Abuse them and you'll wonder
>>>where the vacuum cleaner set to full "suck"
>>>>>came from that empties your wallet.
>>>>>
>>>>Same can be said from gas engines.
>
>>
>>>You can buy a NEW gas long block for half what a single diesel overhaul
>will
>>>cost. You can overhaul a gas engine three times (two overhauls and one
>>>replacement) for what it will cost to overhaul that diesel ONCE.
>> Like I said,
>if
>>you maintain the diesel you may not have to rebuild it in your boating life
>>time. And if you think that is not true, all I can say is that I just got
>back
>>from MTU school and the engine hours I can expect to see on the 1150 HP
>turbo
>>charged diesel engines that will be in the new boat before they MAY need to
>be
>>rebuilt are, now get this 6000Hrs, as in 15-30 years of pleasure use.
>
>
>Oh please.
>
>Tell you what - get a warranty from MTU that is good for 6,000 hours and
>I'll believe you. Until then I say that's a bullshit claim.
You go get a 2000
hour warranty on a new gas engine and I will believe you. That has no bearing
on anything. But the MTUs do come with a 5 year warranty. Tell you what, heres
the name of the instructor at MTU, Heinz to Roxel. Just call him at Detroit
Diesel Corp. in Fort Lauderdale tell him Capt. Bill on Lazarra hull # 46 sent
you. You can call him a liar to his voice if not his face. He`s been with MTU
since the 60s as I recall and with the German Navy before that so I am sure he
would be very interested to hear your views on the longevity of MTU diesels.
Let me know what he has to say.
>Few marine diesels
>get
>>to 2,000 hours without problems. The ones that do
>>>are naturally aspirated, low-power, slow-turning engines - or moderate
>>>powered ones that are run nearly 24x7 in work boats. Recreational diesels
>>>often blow up before 2,000 hours.
>>
>>BS again. It comes down to proper maintenance. Of course abused and
>neglected
>>engines fail prematurely.
>
>> >Recreational diesels
>>>often blow up before 2,000 hours.
>
>> By the way what is your real word day to day
>experance
>>with diesels that lets you make these kinds of statements? We just rebuilt
>the
>>12V-71s in the current boat and they had will over 2000 Hrs on them. And
>they
>>do not get day in day out use.
>
>
>How many is "well over"? :-)
>
Hard to say but
when we got the boat the hour meters were broken at close to 1800 hours each
and we had the boat for over 2 years and 600+ hours and the engines had not
been majored before.
>> >A gas engine
will last almost as long.
>>
>>Some may, some may not. Most will not if the owner tries your "what you can
>get
>>away with." style of maintenance.
>
>That's not my style. It is, however, most owner's style.
But thats not the engines fault.
>>>>>Gas engines are much cheaper to buy and maintain.
>>
>>First part is right. I think we could keep arguing the last. :-)
>
>>
>> >They suck gas like no
>>>>>tomorrow though. Expect them to burn almost twice as much fuel as
>diesels
>>>>>for equivalent horsepower output.
>>
>>>>>Whatever you intend to do GET A SURVEY BEFORE BUYING. That's REQUIRED.
>>>>>
>>
>>Well at least you got something right. :-)
>
>> Capt. Bill
>
>I've yet to see diesels with significantly more than 2,000 hours on the
>meter that don't need rebuilds. And I've looked at an awful lot of boats,
>engines, and such recently while shopping for same.
>
>I can count on the fingers of one hand the boats with more than 2,000 hours
>on the ticker, no rebuilds, and acceptable engine operation.
>
>I'm sure you can find some counter-examples, as I can. The question is what
>you should *expect*, not what you *might* achieve if you are a lucky SOB.
>
I am not going to argue about what say you have seen. But I still say that you
can expect a properly maintained diesel to last years and years with no more
than routine maintenance and I don`t believe that the maintainance is going to
cost that much more than a gas engine. And I don`t think you have to be all
that lucky just diligent. :-) That said, I do believe that for lighter boats
under 36 or so feet used the way most owners do it`s hard to justify the high
initial cost of diesels even though you do get some of that cost back at
resale. And with the new fuel injected gas engines the gas mileage has
gotten better too.
Well, my fingers are tired and I have to take the boat to Ft. Myers in
the morning so I will leave it at this and check in when I get back. And to all
you burglars that cruise the web, I have a monitored alarm system, very nosey
neighbors and a big bad cat so don`t bother coming round.
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
>Well, I dunno ... This thread has sure generated a whole lot more heat than
>light.
>
>But consider this. Friend has a sailboat with gasoline fuelled Atomic 4.
>Loved
>that engine, he did. Had it rebuilt too. Added fresh water cooling,
>electronic
>ignition, etc. I'm not talking twenty years ago. This was last year. But
>after
>one too many times cleaning gasoline out of the bilge he ripped that lovely
>out and sold it for a mere $400. This was virtually a brand new up-to-date
>engine. Then he went to the Annapolis Boat Show and bought on the spot a
>Yanmar diesel for about $5,600. This is going into a 1967 boat.
>
>Well, you guys can argue all you want about the relative merits of diesel vs.
>
>gasoline on boats, but there is just no contest. Nobody ever saw a
>diesel-powered boat blow up at the fuel dock. These are not cars, people. The
>
>fumes do not dribble away from under the vehicle. They accumulate in the
>bilge. Same with your oil leak. You don't drive away from the parking place
>and leave it there and dribble it invisibly on the highway. It stays with
>you.
> Not that that has anything to do with diesel vs. gasoline. Just means if you
>
>have an oil leak you must fix it.
>
>
>
Yes I guess I should have pointed out to Karl that a improperly maintained
diesel my not run but at least it will not blow up you and your boat! And
thanks for the oil leak tip. :-)
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
One more thing, I asked you "By the way what is your real world day to day
experance
with diesels that lets you make these kinds of statements?" and you said what?
Oh yeah, nothing. :-)
Capt. Bill
Tim Chapman
mean 'older' yacht, many of which were without engines.news:93mv8v$cs9$0...@pita.alt.net...
>
> In article <3A5E939B...@home.com>,
> "primary propulsion" engines in cruising and fishing boats, or
"traditional"
> yachts.
>
> (Some slow trawlers also have low-output, normaly aspirated diesels - and
> they too are more tolerant of abuse. )
Jerome A. Schroeder
cruiser. We both live in Seattle. A trip to the San Juans for a few days
cost him $300 bucks in fuel. It cost me $20 bucks. My boat new cost about
$30K, his substantially more. Of course he got there much faster. Big
deal.
Jerry
"Peggy Carr" <peggy...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010111210401...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
Harry Krause
>
> I own a 21 foot diesel powered troller. A friend owns a 25 foot gas powered
> cruiser. We both live in Seattle. A trip to the San Juans for a few days
> cost him $300 bucks in fuel. It cost me $20 bucks. My boat new cost about
> $30K, his substantially more. Of course he got there much faster. Big
> deal.
>
> Jerry
Different strokes for different folks. Some folks like to go slow, others
don't.
--
Harry Krause
------------
I knew it might put him in an awkward position that we had a discussion before
finality has finally happened in this presidential race. -GW Bush
Rick
LaBomba182 wrote:
<<" ... The engine will run hot at high RPMs but if you slow down it
will run cooler just like in a gas boat.">>
And you
replied:
<<"The hell it will. ... The amount of heat dissipated on a turbodiesel
is VASTLY beyond that on gas engines.">>
Which law of thermodynamics has been rewritten? The amount of heat
produced is related to the amount of fuel burned. You must realize this
since you wrote:
<<"Expect them to burn almost twice as much fuel as diesels for
equivalent horsepower output.">>
OK, where is the VASTLY increased number of BTUs coming from and going?
How about taking this thread out of the black magic and voodoo
engineering phase and start putting some real numbers to work. A pound
of diesel and a pound of gasoline both contain about 18K BTUs and if, as
you are convinced, a diesel burns only half as much fuel for the same
output, please explain to the group how all this extra heat is produced
...
The reason so many people are confused about this diesel vs gas thing is
becasue so many people like you are publishing so much nonsense.
Boaters armed with misinformation and fears created by the type of
garbage you have written here are prime targets for unscrupulous
mechanics and boatyards. Ignorance creates the conditions you blame on
the technology.
Rick
JAXAshby
However, gallon for gallon diesel has about 25% heat content (THIS -- and the
lower price per gallon of diesel -- are the real reasons diesel is the choice
of industrial applications).
However, a diesel has a higher compression ratio (typically about 20 to 1 or
greater) than a gas engine (typically in a modern gas engine about 8 to 1 or a
little less). Higher compression ratio means greater utilization of the
inherant heat of the fuel. Modern gas engines -- in theory -- run about 33%
efficient, and diesel -- in theory -- run about 40%. Therefore the diesel will
produce more waste heat. (Informed sources say the diesel on a sailboat needs
about twice the engine cooling air as the same size gas engine on the same
sailboat)
In other words, a diesel will run hotter.
(Interesting side note regarding fuel efficiency of diesel vs gas is that EPA
records for various cars and pickups show a typical advantage to diesel at
about 20% to 40% -- with about 25% being most common -- as compared to the same
car/pickup with gas engine (which typically has slightly more horsepower)).
Rick
engine cooling air as the same size gas engine on the same sailboat)">>
Did you for one moment think about the fact that a diesel consumes -
note the term "consumes" - much more air than a gasoline engine because
a diesel does not use a throttle plate for power control ... it always
has a full supply of air. The volumetric efficiency of a diesel is much
higher and when turbocharged is very high ...
Unless the engine is air cooled all that air is not for cooling becasue
the engine is hotter ... think about it and if you don't understand it
then look it up before publishing garbage in defence of a junk idea.
Rick
JAXAshby
><<"(Informed sources say the diesel on a sailboat needs about twice the
>engine cooling air as the same size gas engine on the same sailboat)">>
>
>Did you for one moment think about the fact that a diesel consumes -
>note the term "consumes" - much more air than a gasoline engine because
>a diesel does not use a throttle plate for power control ... it always
>has a full supply of air. The volumetric efficiency of a diesel is much
>higher and when turbocharged is very high ...
Nope. Didn't think about that all. Because the discussion was about "cooling"
and NOT combustion ingestion.
Diesel engines need more air circulation for engine cooling than the same hp
gas engine. Not that that is any particular worry, unless of course some idgit
crams a diesel into a tiny space without sufficient cooling air flow. but
*nobody* would do that, would you?
>
>Unless the engine is air cooled all that air is not for cooling becasue
>the engine is hotter ... think about it and if you don't understand it
>then look it up before publishing garbage in defence of a junk idea.
>
>Rick
>
>
Okay. I thought about it. In fact, I though about a very long time ago. And
I thought about it again today. Still same conclusion: diesel engines need
more airflow to cool their hotter running selves.
I guess I didn't think that diesels are junk idea, but if you say so.
Rick
<<"There is more energy in a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gas (by
about 25%) and a diesel runs at a higher compression ratio and is more
efficient, extracting about 40% of the fuel'/s energy .vs. 33% or so for
gasoline.">>
So what does that have to do with your statement that diesels are
costly, hot, and impose unreasoanable maintenance overheads? You are
obfuscating the issue with a bunch of meaningless numbers.
And gallons have nothing to do with anything ... engines produce power
by converting the BTU's in a pound of fuel - a horsepower is equivalent
to about 2500 BTUs - and a gasoline engine, by your own admission,
requires far more BTUs input to produce each horsepower than a diesel so
it follows that more BTUs in to achieve the same horsepower out means
more heat rejection and loss in a gasoline engine than a diesel. To
quote my teenage son - Duh. Now which area of thermodynamics do you have
so much trouble with?
<<"Diesels in most recreational boat applications are also turbocharged
- which greatly increases the heat load on the engine. Very few if any
gasoline engines in boats are turbocharged.">>
Yeah, so what? Gasoline engines in marine applications do not
turbocharge well. Exhaust temps in a gas engine are about twice those of
a diesel and if they were turbo'ed then there would be exploding boats
in sight everywhere each weekend 8-)
What is wrong with turbos? They are a good thing and probably require
less maintenance than the starter or spark plugs on a gas engine ...
have you ever had a turbo'ed anything? A turbocharger doesn't make heat,
it only recovers it from the exhaust and puts it to work in producing
more power from more fuel or the same power from less fuel ...
I wrote:
>>The reason so many people are confused about this diesel vs gas thing is becasue so many people like you are publishing so much nonsense.">>
You wrote:
<<"You're wrong.">>
Everything you write makes my point.
I wrote:
<<"Ignorance creates the conditions you blame on the technology.">>
You wrote:
<<"The ignorance is in your head.">>
Then show where I am wrong and you are right. Simple challenge. Defend
your postion that diesel engines create more heat for the same power
output as a gasoline engine and that turbos "vastly" increase the heat
"dissipation" of a diesel.
Rick
Rick
<<"Diesel engines need more air circulation for engine cooling than the
same hp gas engine. Not that that is any particular worry, unless of
course some idgit crams a diesel into a tiny space without sufficient
cooling air flow. but *nobody* would do that, would you?">>
Well, as a matter of fact I have just spent a great deal of money to
install a sound shield around one of the 65kw gensets on "my" boat. The
shield is as "airtight" as possible, and is within a few inches of the
engine at all points. BTW, it is turbocharged and the turbo is also
inside the enclosure.
Do you have any other point to make?
Rick
JAXAshby
>Well, as a matter of fact I have just spent a great deal of money ...
WOW!! We're impressed!! Lots!
> ... to
>install a sound shield around one of the 65kw gensets on "my" boat. The
>shield is as "airtight" as possible, and is within a few inches of the
>engine at all points. BTW, it is turbocharged and the turbo is also
>inside the enclosure.
That tight enclosure is considered very poor engineering practise, but seeing
as how *you* "spent a lot of money" it's gotta be good, right?
btw, how does it feel to have a fishhook in your mouth?
>
>Do you have any other point to make?
>
>Rick
Were you bragging or complaining about having "spent a lot of money"?
JAXAshby
>The volumetric efficiency of a diesel is much
>higher and when turbocharged is very high.
Not true, rick. You used the wrong word.
When you said "volumetric" efficiency (which has nothing to do with the fuel
used at all) you should have said "combustion" efficiency (which does have to
do with compression ratio, and diesels support a higher compression ratio).
FWIW, "volumentric" efficiency is the rate at which a particular engine
cylinder/valves/air passages actually fills that cylinder as compared to its
potential under WOT. It's a measure of the "smoothness" (if you will) of the
air flow system going _into_ an engine. It is often considered very important
on racing engines, which are usually limited to a particular size for a
particular race class.
Introducing the word (and concept) in this discussion seems to have been
specious on your part, for it tended to obfuscate. Maybe you didn't know any
better?
JAXAshby
Rick, give it up.
1.) you're talking gibberish,
2.) you're cutting and pasting what different people wrote and attributing all
to me,
3.) you are so far behind the 8-ball enginewise it's near to impossible to
discuss anything with you, and
4.) by your own admission you have "spend a lot of money" on your (diesel) gen
set set, which obviously leaves great room to question your objective standards
(ah, let's say that said standards disappeared just before you wrote the check
"for a lot of money")
Rick, can you say "cognitive dissidence"? It means you spent the money and
you're going -- by god -- to convince yourself you made the only decision
possible.
May we suggest you go sit on your boat, mint julip in hand, while you listen to
your 1 cylinder, 20/1 compression ratio engine vibrant your boat while spewing
diesel exhaust out your transom and dream of ways to sell your boat just before
major work engine/genset work is needed. Play your cards right and the boat is
gone before you have to pull out your checkbook (again) to "spend a lot of
money" (as you put it).
"Cognitive dissidence" is the phrase you're looking for.
Lloyd Sumpter
>
> In article <3A627797...@earthlink.net>, Rick <tu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >You wrote:
> ><<"There is more energy in a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gas (by
> >about 25%) and a diesel runs at a higher compression ratio and is more
> >efficient, extracting about 40% of the fuel'/s energy .vs. 33% or so for
> >gasoline.">>
> >
> >So what does that have to do with your statement that diesels are
> >costly, hot, and impose unreasoanable maintenance overheads? You are
> >obfuscating the issue with a bunch of meaningless numbers.
>
>
> Diesel engines are in fact expensive compared to gasoline (roughly three
> times as expensive in a marine environment), hot (absolutely; they reject
> far more heat and require better and more expensive cooling systems) and
> have higher (I did NOT say unreasonable) maintenance requirements -
> primarily due to the additional cooling load.
>
Nonsense. (from someone who's run a diesel for 10 years)
One of the big advantages of a diesel is it's simplicity. Most folks think
it's complicated because they're more used to an ignition and carburators than
DFI. But look at the inside of a carburator sometime and tell me it's not
complicated!
Because of that simplicity, diesels are EASY and CHEAP to maintain. Fuel
filters and oil change: WHAT ELSE IS THERE? Of course, there's impellers,
manifolds, risers, etc., but they need maintenance in a gas engine as well. You
shouldn't have to clean your injectors unless you've neglected your filters.
The simplicity also creates a Major advantage: ease of diagnosis. If a diesel
doesn't run, it's because it's not getting fuel. Period. (as I said, barring
Catastrophic Failure.) Just follow the fuel line down, and fix it. You can do
this on the "High Seas" (I have) since a small diesel leak isn't going to blow
up your boat.
(And yes, my diesel is an "auxillary", but as others have mentioned, a
sailboat spends a lot of time motoring. And since it's non-planing, it often
runs ALL DAY, often after not being run for more than 1/2 hr for months. For
instance, on my last holiday to Desolation Sound, I motored for about 40 hrs)
LaBomba182
>Well, as a matter of fact I have just spent a great deal of money to
>install a sound shield around one of the 65kw gensets on "my" boat. The
>shield is as "airtight" as possible, and is within a few inches of the
>engine at all points. BTW, it is turbocharged and the turbo is also
>inside the enclosure.
I`m assuming you meant airtight except for the air intake for the engines air
intake. :-) Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
>(Informed sources say the diesel on a sailboat needs
>about twice the engine cooling air as the same size gas engine on the same
>sailboat)
Unless those diesels are air cooled :-) that extra air is not for cooling, it`s
for the much larger amount of air a diesel pumps through itself. In other words
it has little or nothing to do cooling and everything to do with breathing. If
that is not true how can a Genset run for years and years and thousands of
hours with a sound shield around it getting it`s air for combustion through a
small opening in the shield that is open to in most cases a hot engine room. If
you choke down the air flow (not to say cut it off) to a diesel it will still
run, and should be cooled well enough if the water cooling system is working
properly, it just will not be running as efficiently or be making as much HP as
it could.
Capt. Bill
Graham
> Rick, can you say "cognitive dissidence"? It means you spent the money
> and you're going -- by god -- to convince yourself you made the only
> decision possible.
Cognitive DISSONANCE.
Introducing the word (and concept) in this discussion seems to have been
specious on your part, for it tended to obfuscate. Maybe you didn't
know any better?
"Cognitive dissonance" is the phrase you're looking for.
Gee your own words just seemed so appropriate.
Rick
then discharged into the housing. I know this will just bug the heck out
of a few folks here but it actually PREHEATS the inlet air flow.
This is the third installation of the system on our boats and the idea
must be really disturbing to the amateur thermodynamicist in the group.
Rick
Rick
<<"Diesels are more efficient at extracting the energy in the fuel
(their combustion cycle converts more of the chemical energy than the
gasoline cycle does.) But they reject more of the heat too (rather than
turning it into useful work); gasoline engines release less of the
energy available than diesels, primarily due to the lower compression
ratio.">>
I'll repeat it again in case you drifted off earlier ...
If a diesel engine produces X horsepower and burns 1 pound of fuel to do
it and a gasoline engine produces X horsepower and burns 1.5 pounds to
do it (according to your own statements - reality may differ) then the
diesel could not possibly reject more heat to the atmosphere or engine
room than the gas engine ... the diesel only has 18K BTU's available to
begin with vs the 27K BTU available to the gas engine. No matter how
much you would like to think, write, or believe otherwise, if the BTU's
aren't put into the system then they sure as hell aren't going to come
out of it. I'll rephrase my question in the previous post; What part of
thermodynamics DO you understand?
Turbocharging has nothing to do with the discussion ... if the two
engines develop the same horsepower, then the diesel will do it with
less heat input and therefore less heat rejection ... is that beyond
your level of comprehension?
If the original poster wants to put in 100 hp diesels instead of 100 hp
gasoline engines then the diesels will consume less fuel, reject less
heat to the engine room and cooling system and suck less money out of
his pocket ...
I give up ... it is not worth the effort to continue this exchange, you
are completely ignorant of how diesels work compared to gasoline
engines, and have more opinions about the subject than information or
education. And BTW, read your own posts, you contradict yourself
continually ...
I have seldom read such a crock of nonsense about engines as I have read
in your posts. It's a shame that people like you influence the boating
community.
Please, anyone in the group who needs information about your diesels, go
to the manufacturer. Ask your questions there, they will not submerge
you with voodoo engineering nonsense or the ramblings of yacht club
wannabe's.
Rick
Tarek Korraa
much simpler question and now we're talking about BTU's, heat dissipation,
turbochargers and cognitive dissonance. Holy mackerel!!!
I am a reasonably responsible boat owner when it comes to engine and other
maintenance, and I'm sure I can learn to do the regular maintenance on a
diesel should I buy one.
That being said.....
Yea or nay on the diesel? And if yea, what about Hino 220's? Do you like
'em?
Tarek
"Tarek Korraa" <kor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:OH976.1281$mX.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I have a boat in mind to buy with twin diesels, It's a '87 Bayliner 3460
> Trophy sportfisher with 220hp Hino's, about 800 hours. The owner turned on
> the motors for me, they turned on right away and after a short period of
> smoking (about 2 mins), it cleared up. The engines sounded very smooth.
>
> Then I read an article on the internet by a guy called David Pascoe, a
> marine surveyor, and he just pans diesels, saying they're only necessary
for
> boats 36' feet and up, that you don't get the hours out of them that
people
> believe, not as safe as they're thought to be, that they're incredibly
> expensive to maintain and even more so to replace.
>
> He advises very highly to buy gas engines, saying that the money spent on
> extra gas consumption would actually be less than the cost of buying and
> maintaining diesels. Here's a link to his essay:
>
> http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasNdiesel.htm
>
> Any thoughts or experiences on this? What about Hino 220's? He's got me
> scared!
>
> Tarek
>
>
>
>
>
LaBomba182
>I never thought I could get something like this started. It was really a
>much simpler question and now we're talking about BTU's, heat dissipation,
>turbochargers and cognitive dissonance. Holy mackerel!!!
>
>I am a reasonably responsible boat owner when it comes to engine and other
>maintenance, and I'm sure I can learn to do the regular maintenance on a
>diesel should I buy one.
>
>That being said.....
>
>Yea or nay on the diesel? And if yea, what about Hino 220's? Do you like
>'em?
>
>Tarek
>
>
Oh sure, now you actually want us to answer your first question. :-) As far as
the Hinos go, the only boats that I have seen to use them (not that I have
looked) are Bayliners. To some that might be a red flag right there. I intend
to ask a couple of mechanic friends of mine what they know about Hinos and I
will let you know what they say. Capt. Bill
NKlykken
>Therefore the diesel will produce more waste heat. <<
Actually, it produces less waste heat. More of the available energy is
transformed into mechanical energy, leaving less waste heat to dispose of. (
Diesels have a tendancy to run cooler than comparable gas engines.)
>Higher compression ratio means greater utilization of the inherant heat of the
fuel.>
You are absolutely correct. Have a good day.
Regards,
Nils Klykken
St. Pete, Florida
Harry Krause
>
> In article <3A6369B0...@earthlink.net>, Rick <tu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >You rambled:
> >
> ><<"Diesels are more efficient at extracting the energy in the fuel
> >(their combustion cycle converts more of the chemical energy than the
> >gasoline cycle does.) But they reject more of the heat too (rather than
> >turning it into useful work); gasoline engines release less of the
> >energy available than diesels, primarily due to the lower compression
> >ratio.">>
> >
> >I'll repeat it again in case you drifted off earlier ...
> >
> >If a diesel engine produces X horsepower and burns 1 pound of fuel to do
> >it and a gasoline engine produces X horsepower and burns 1.5 pounds to
> >do it (according to your own statements - reality may differ) then the
> >diesel could not possibly reject more heat to the atmosphere or engine
> >room than the gas engine ... the diesel only has 18K BTU's available to
> >begin with vs the 27K BTU available to the gas engine. No matter how
> >much you would like to think, write, or believe otherwise, if the BTU's
> >aren't put into the system then they sure as hell aren't going to come
> >out of it. I'll rephrase my question in the previous post; What part of
> >thermodynamics DO you understand?
>
> You PAY for fuel by the GALLON, not the POUND.
>
Good grief...who let Krazy Karl out of his kage?
Ask Karl to outline his personal ownership experience of diesel-powered boats.
--
Harry Krause
------------
Quotas are bad for America. It's not the way America is all about. -GW Bush
JAXAshby
Maybe -- just maybe, you understand -- it would be better if you knew just a
tad about engines before you opened your mouth.
Because a diesel engine has a higher compression ratio it extracts more of the
heat from the fuel than gasolene. Some of that heat is turned into hp, some
stays heat that must be removed by the cooling system or radiated by the engine
block.
General engineering practise is to consider that a modern gas engine extracts
about 33% of the heat of its fuel as hp, while diesel gets about 40%. The rest
is heat radiation/cooling or unburned fuel (and heat) out the exhaust.
A diesel engine needs more air for cooling than a similar hp gas engine.
Gallon for gallon of burned fuel, the diesel will give about 25% more hp/hour.
Rick
give up on you ...
You scribbled:
<<"Cut this "pound" crap. You put GALLONS of fuel into your boat, not
POUNDS. You PAY for fuel by the GALLON, not the POUND.">>
This shows just how incredibly ignorant you are of how engine
performance is measured.
Performance is measured by plotting the BTU's in vs out in a
heat balance diagram. Fuel consumption is measured and stated in pounds
per horsepower hour (or its metric equivalent). Comparisons between
powerplants is made possible by standardizing units.
Gallons come in many flavors and temperatures. Gallons are meaningless
in performance calculations. You have proven your ignorance with that
"pound crap" statement. You are in over your head in this discussion,
you don't need to keep proving it.
I can see by your lack of understanding and pigheaded resistance to
education how easy it is for the yachtie mechanics to screw the average
boater if you claim to be one of the informed ones.
How many of us here do you need to tell you that your view of heat and
diesels is WRONG WRONG WRONG before you get the point?
Rick
JAXAshby
Graham, how do we know you're a "mouth reader" reading at a snail's pace?
Because you're proud you spell well.
Would you as proud if you knew that "mouth readers" (educators, when polite,
refer them as "sub-vocalizers") have, in fact, a learning disability? That is
they *can't* decode printed words on a page unless they actually mouth each and
every sylable, then listen to each sound, then figure out what it means.
Normal people just look at the tops of the first three or four letters, notice
how long the word is and know what the word is and its meaning.
Mouth readers usually are such slooooow readers that they seldom try to read
for pleasure or understanding new areas. When they try to read for pleasure,
it can take them a week or ten days or even two weeks to read a novel.
Normal people finish a novel the same evening they start it.
Okay, Graham. Go ahead and tell us how educators are wrong, that you don't
really have a learning disability, that 200 words per minute is right and holy,
two weeks to read a novel is better than an evening.
Tell us again how proud you are of your spelling.
Geesh! Some people's kids.
Rick
>The volumetric efficiency of a diesel is much
>higher and when turbocharged is very high.
You wrote:
<<"Not true, rick. You used the wrong word.
When you said "volumetric" efficiency (which has nothing to do with the
fuel
used at all) you should have said "combustion" efficiency (which does
have to
do with compression ratio, and diesels support a higher compression
ratio).
FWIW, "volumentric" efficiency is the rate at which a particular engine
cylinder/valves/air passages actually fills that cylinder as compared to
its
potential under WOT. It's a measure of the "smoothness" (if you will)
of the
air flow system going _into_ an engine. It is often considered very
important
on racing engines, which are usually limited to a particular size for a
particular race class.
Introducing the word (and concept) in this discussion seems to have been
specious on your part, for it tended to obfuscate. Maybe you didn't
know any
better?">>
Volumetric efficiency in a turbocharged diesel will often exceed 100
percent depending on deck pressure. We were talking about the air
requirements for a diesel. Are you really this stupid or are you just
trolling?
Rick
Rick
operate, design and install systems and machinery in diesel and steam
powered vessels. Have done it for many years and have no respect for
fools like you.
If you ever have the chance to board a boat larger than a bayliner you
will see some wonderful machinery and techniques that you probably will
not understand any more than you can comprehend what I and a couple
others here have been trying to tell you.
Rick
JAXAshby
>Jeez ...
[sniiiiiiiiiiip]
ricky, give it up. You're so far in over your head you don't even know what
day of the week is tomorrow. Go back to playing with whatever you were
playing with before you began to think about playing with internet engines and
words like "diesel".
JAXAshby
>Volumetric efficiency in a turbocharged diesel will often exceed 100
>percent depending on deck pressure. We were talking about the air
>requirements for a diesel.
Jesus H. Christ, ricky! Do you have ANY clue what the word "sophist" means?
If so, are you proud to be one?
JAXAshby
>I spent a lot of my employer's money doing what I do for a living -
>operate, design and install systems and machinery in diesel and steam
>powered vessels. Have done it for many years and have no respect for
>fools like you.
ricky, if you draw a paycheck under the pretext of doing something useful with
diesel engines, then you are stealing your employer's money.
Do you sleep well at night?
Yes? Probably you work in the office emptying wastebaskets. For sure no
employer would let you near any diesel with a wrench by mid-morning of your
first day on the job.
LaBomba182
>Good grief...who let Krazy Karl out of his kage?
>
>Ask Karl to outline his personal ownership experience of diesel-powered
>boats.
>
>
>--
>Harry Krause
I did twice already. So far no answer. He claims to be getting one soon. Why I
don`t know. Because everybody knows that diesels cost a fortune to maintain,
crack heads if they get 20 degrees over there operating temperature and burn to
the water line as opposed to safely blowing up like a gas powered boat.
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
I think jax head would explode if you ask him to think about how a pound is a
pound but the amount of molecules in a gallon changes with the weather. :-)
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
>Cut this "pound" crap. You put GALLONS of fuel into your boat, not POUNDS.
>You PAY for fuel by the GALLON, not the POUND.
You are clueless. A pound is a pound but gallons change with the weather.
That's why they use pounds Karl not gallons. I apologize to jaxashby for
attributing this statement to him and not Karl in my other post.
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
>I think jax head would explode if you ask him to think about how a pound is a
>pound but the amount of molecules in a gallon changes with the weather. :-)
>
>
> Capt. Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
This last post should have been directed to Karl. Sorry jaxashby. Capt.
Bill
Harry Krause
Until a few months ago, Krazy Karl lived in a suburb of Chicago and his
personal boat was a 20' bowrider with a gas engine. Then he moved to Redneck,
Florida, and became an expert on *marine* diesel engines. Without apparently
having owned a boat *with* a marine diesel engine. He's a big fan, though, of
the old-tech GM diesels. Apparently had one as a standby generator for a
land-based business he once owned in Chicago.
--
Harry Krause
------------
We'll let our friends be the peacekeepers and the great country called America
will be the pacemakers. -GW Bush
Rick
pound is a pound but the amount of molecules in a gallon changes with
the weather.
:-)">>
Oh jeez, did you have to add - molecules - to this mix? Now we will
have to read his and the net consultant's posts on how
molecules increase the cost of diesel maintenance and are probably the
cause of 45.7 percent of engine failures in diesel powered planing
catamaran trawlers. ;-)
Rick
Rick
Oops, so was mine but I won't apologize, there isn't much difference
between the two except Karl seems to be off his meds.
Rick
LaBomba182
>In article <20010116025742...@ng-da1.aol.com>,
>LaBomba182 <labom...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: Do I really want to buy a diesel powered boat?
>>>From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net
>>
>>>Cut this "pound" crap. You put GALLONS of fuel into your boat, not POUNDS.
>>>You PAY for fuel by the GALLON, not the POUND.
>>
>>You are clueless. A pound is a pound but gallons change with the weather.
>>That's why they use pounds Karl not gallons. I apologize to jaxashby for
>>attributing this statement to him and not Karl in my other post.
>
>>
>> Capt. Bill
>
>Of course they do Bill.
>
>But when you buy gallons, you buy (and use) them under the prevailing
>conditions.
>
>Notice the next time you're fueling up that you're not buying pounds of fuel
>- you're buying gallons.
>
>When you're looking for relative burn numbers, the important issue is how
>many gallons per hour - because at that instant, a gallon is a gallon.
>
>Does fuel's density change with temperature? Yep. And? The point remains
>that we're not talking about BTUs of fuel in .vs. horsepower out; we're
>talking about the relative use (and maintenance) of gasoline and diesel
>engines.
>
>Since we're talking about two engines under similar (if not identical)
>conditions, the whole "pounds .vs. gallons" nonsense is sophistry rather
>than reality. It is a bald-faced attempt to mask the fact that diesels are
>far more fuel efficient for a given horsepower output *measured in gallons
>per hour*, due to the higher fuel content *per gallon* of diesel fuel (there
>are more pounds of diesel than gasoline in a gallon) AND the higher
>percentage
>of chemical energy that can be extracted in a diesel-cycle engine over an
>Otto-cycle gasoline one.
>
>Further, the fact remains that diesels are preferred in many marine
>applications not for their horsepower but for their torque curve; it is
>torque, particularly at low RPMs, that is necessary to lift a large boat
>onto step. A diesel's torque curve is far better suited to large planing
>hulls. Finally, a diesel is typically designed to run at significant
>percentages of its rated output (75% is not uncommon) on a continuous basis,
>where a gas engine is NOT.
>
>That's not to say that you couldn't design a gas engine that WOULD be
>designed for this use, only that the gas engines currently out there for
>marine conversion are not designed for that use.
>
>As to why I'm buying a diesel fueled boat the reason should be obvious if
>you read what I just wrote - each engine type has its preferred operating
>conditions and design, and the boat I'm having surveyed today (sorry folks,
>have to go to work here) probably couldn't even get on step with gas
>engines, say much less be operated with reasonable economy.
>
>--
>--
>Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net)
>Since we're talking about two
engines under similar (if not identical)
>conditions, the whole "pounds .vs. gallons" nonsense is sophistry rather
>than reality. It is a bald-faced attempt to mask the fact that diesels are
>far more fuel efficient for a given horsepower output *measured in gallons
>per hour*, due to the higher fuel content *per gallon* of diesel fuel (there
>are more pounds of diesel than gasoline in a gallon) AND the higher
>percentage
>of chemical energy that can be extracted in a diesel-cycle engine over an
>Otto-cycle gasoline one.
> It is a bald-faced attempt
to mask the fact that diesels are
>far more fuel efficient for a given horsepower output *measured in >gallons
It`s not being use to mask anything. I
believe it was being use bolster that exact point.
Am I in a the
Twilight Zone here. First you are arguing for the use of gas engines and now
you are arguing the use of diesels!
>Further, the fact remains
that diesels are preferred in many marine
>applications not for their horsepower but for their torque curve; it is
>torque, particularly at low RPMs, that is necessary to lift a large boat
>onto step. A diesel's torque curve is far better suited to large planing
>hulls. Finally, a diesel is typically designed to run at significant
>percentages of its rated output (75% is not uncommon) on a continuous basis,
>where a gas engine is NOT.
No your kidding! Really?
>That's not to say that you
couldn't design a gas engine that WOULD be
>designed for this use, only that the gas engines currently out there for
>marine conversion are not designed for that use.
See above. It also would be pointless.
>As to why I'm buying a diesel fueled boat the reason should be obvious if
>you read what I just wrote - each engine type has its preferred operating
>conditions and design, and the boat I'm having surveyed today (sorry folks,
>have to go to work here) probably couldn't even get on step with gas
>engines, say much less be operated with reasonable economy.
Well, sure, that's one way to end a perfectly good discussion, take my side.
Yes Karl, of course I understand why you are buying a diesel
boat, my post was meant as humor. Just remember to keep an eagle eye on those
temp. gauges. And have your check book out at all times while underway.
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
>Anything over 210 will crack most high performance diesel heads - those that
>are found in yachts, sportfishing and cruising (planing hull) boats.
>
>
Let me get this straight, diesels run at 190 degrees but if they hit 210 they
crack there heads! Get real Karl.
>>>Oh please.
>>>
>>>Tell you what - get a warranty from MTU that is good for 6,000 hours and
>>>I'll believe you. Until then I say that's a bullshit claim.
>>
>> You go get a
>2000
>>hour warranty on a new gas engine and I will believe you. That has no
>bearing
>>on anything. But the MTUs do come with a 5 year warranty. Tell you what,
>heres
>>the name of the instructor at MTU, Heinz to Roxel. Just call him at Detroit
>>Diesel Corp. in Fort Lauderdale tell him Capt. Bill on Lazarra hull # 46
>sent
>>you. You can call him a liar to his voice if not his face. He`s been with
>MTU
>>since the 60s as I recall and with the German Navy before that so I am sure
>he
>>would be very interested to hear your views on the longevity of MTU diesels.
>>Let me know what he has to say.
>
>
>Heh, Detroit Diesel/MTU makes good engines. MTU may have a 5-year warranty,
>but with what hour limit? Any?
>
None. I also
gather you have not bothered to call Heinz to call him a liar yet.
>If you want to claim 6,000 hours go
right ahead. Until those engines have
>6,000 hours on them that claim is interesting but nothing more.
>
>Oh, by the way, you DO know about that stainless steel water pump, yes?
>$2,000 - and not servicable (no replacable impeller)
>
Well once again
you are wrong and in the case on both counts. #1 The pumps is around $2800
#2 The pump IS rebuildable $1100-$1200 A reseal which is about all they ever
need is $3-400. And by the way just to confirm what I already knew I called my
local Detroit Diesel/MTU dealer and talked with their mech. who does their work
on MTUs and asked him about the service life of the raw and fresh water pumps
on a 183 and guess what he said, he had NEVER seen a fresh or raw water pump on
a 183 go bad. He has resealed a few but the last one he REBUILT he only need to
reseal it, but the captain ask him to REBUILD it while he was at it. He went on
to tell me that when he took the pump apart it showed no signs of needing to be
REBUILT. I was tempted to tell him he was wrong that you can`t rebuild one Karl
says so, but he seemed happy in his fantasy world so I just let him continue
on.
>>>How many is "well over"? :-)
>>>
>> Hard to say
>but
>>when we got the boat the hour meters were broken at close to 1800 hours each
>>and we had the boat for over 2 years and 600+ hours and the engines had not
>>been majored before.
>
>
>Yeah? So what. Ask a good surveyor or engine guy - most will tell you if
>they're honest that 2,000 hours is about all you can expect from high
>performance engines before major. IF you get more you're lucky. Many
>people get less.
>
You say you don`t
get over 2000 hours before rebuild and I prove you wrong with real world
experience and your response is "Yeah? So what." Once again I ask you what is
your real world day to day experience with diesels?
>>>That's not my style. It is, however, most owner's style.
>>
>>But thats not the engines fault.
>
>
>Diesels in planing boats require more maintenance than gas.
>
>>>I've yet to see diesels with significantly more than 2,000 hours on the
>>>meter that don't need rebuilds. And I've looked at an awful lot of boats,
>>>engines, and such recently while shopping for same.
>>>
>>>I can count on the fingers of one hand the boats with more than 2,000 hours
>>>on the ticker, no rebuilds, and acceptable engine operation.
>>>
>>>I'm sure you can find some counter-examples, as I can. The question is
>what
>>>you should *expect*, not what you *might* achieve if you are a lucky SOB.
>>>
Not really all
that lucky, just understand the importance of preventative maintenance.
>>
>>I am not going to argue about what say you have seen. But I still say that
>you
>>can expect a properly maintained diesel to last years and years with no more
>>than routine maintenance and I don`t believe that the maintenance is going
>to
>>cost that much more than a gas engine.
>
>I disagree, obviously.
>
>> And I don`t think you have to be all
>>that lucky just diligent. :-) That said, I do believe that for lighter boats
>>under 36 or so feet used the way most owners do it`s hard to justify the
>high
>>initial cost of diesels even though you do get some of that cost back at
>>resale. And with the new fuel injected gas engines the gas mileage has
>>gotten better too.
>
>> Well, my fingers are tired and I have to take the boat to Ft. Myers
>in
>>the morning so I will leave it at this and check in when I get back. And to
>all
>>you burglars that cruise the web, I have a monitored alarm system, very
>nosey
>>neighbors and a big bad cat so don`t bother coming round.
>
>>
>Capt. Bill
>
>--
>--
>Karl Denninger (ka...@denninger.net)
Capt. Bill
Harry Krause
>
> >Subject: Re: Do I really want to buy a diesel powered boat?
> >From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net (Karl Denninger)
>
> >Anything over 210 will crack most high performance diesel heads - those that
> >are found in yachts, sportfishing and cruising (planing hull) boats.
> >
> >
>
> Let me get this straight, diesels run at 190 degrees but if they hit 210 they
> crack there heads! Get real Karl.
As far as I can determine, Karl has never owned a boat with a high-power
marine diesel. He claims to own a 20' i/o bowrider.
Maybe Karl read an article on marine diesels...
--
Harry Krause
------------
I understand small business growth. I was one. -GW Bush
Tim Marks
laying yours out on the table?
I am hearing alot of words from you that indicate that you took a thermo
course in college, but no evidence of understanding of proper installation,
maintenance, and operating procedures for diesel engines.
"JAXAshby" <jaxa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010115224228...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
LaBomba182
>shut up
>From: "Tim Marks"
>Jax, put up or shut up. Ricky has told us his creditionals, how about
>laying yours out on the table?
>I am hearing alot of words from you that indicate that you took a thermo
>course in college, but no evidence of understanding of proper installation,
>maintenance, and operating procedures for diesel engines.
jaxashby`s AOL profile states: Hobbies: Writing,
Sailing, Exploring, Reading
Occupation: Sales
Personal Quote: "Just do it!"
"Just do it!" ? Gee, I hope NIKE paid you
to use you`r "Personal Quote" jax.
Capt. Bill
Rick
I think he can only dream about doing anything ... the "sales"
occupation says a lot and the quality of his posts say all that remains
to be said.
It is a shame that he and his ilk might actually influence the decisions
of others.
Rick
Jim Lynch
after driving it for a few hours and bumped my bare arm against the
exhaust pipe about 3 feet from the exhaust manifold. I gritted my teeth
waiting for the pain and blister. A few seconds later, I realized I
hadn't done any damage and reached over and touched the pipe. It was
hot, yes, but not nearly as hot as a gas engine would have been. I
know, I've done the same thing on gas engines and have gotten nasty
burns. Diesels run cooler. They are more efficient and produce less
waste heat.
Jim.
JAXAshby
>
>>Anything over 210 will crack most high performance diesel heads - those that
>
>>are found in yachts, sportfishing and cruising (planing hull) boats.
>>
>>
>
>Let me get this straight, diesels run at 190 degrees but if they hit 210 they
>crack there heads! Get real Karl.
>
In talking with a vendor at the Annapolis (sail)boatshow who sold large diesels
to the powerboat market, I wondered out loud about why he took so much effort
to proclaim that his engines had the cylinder head that was integral with the
block (this is very unusual to my experience. In fact, I was aware of it only
because Oufenhauser (sp?) Indy engines did this.). He said the powerboat
market just plain flat out expected a large diesel (used in powerboat) to blow
the head gasket and/or crack the head and he had to build them as one piece to
prove to the buyers that the engine wouldn't pack it in early on.
On sailboat diesels, a cracked head is third behind glazing of the walls (from
idly too much) as reason for high buck engine repairs. Blown injectors from
cruddy fuel is the big #1.
btw, if you accept Pascoe's figures, something between $10 and $20 million a
hear is spent in Ft Lauderdale alone on professional repair of diesel engines
in recreational boats. Even if FtL has 10,000 diesel boats, that's still a
chunk of change/engine to pay the pros for their services every year.
JAXAshby
woman would ever at any time in the past have him He also tells us he "fishes"
for fun.
So. Now we have "Capt Bill" from Florida who takes his screen name from a
1950's song by a dead guy floating around in a 14 foot Alumacraft Model D
powered by an Sea-Horse 18 wearing a captain's cap while he is dragging a
fishing lure bought a K-Mart behind.
But Capt Billy LaBomba DOES know his engines. Yup, he sure does and *he* knows
that oil burners never break down, at least not in the first (or maybe second)
100,000 usage.
So, billy, let me ask you this. How often are you supposed to change the lines
that run between the injector pump and the injectors?
(Maybe you want to check with ricky sluggs? Maybe he knows?)
Tim Marks
about diesels? So far, you have expressed no more experience in operating
and maintaining diesel engines then I learned taking Thermodynamics 201 in
college 14 years ago (read: none). What is your operating experience?
"JAXAshby" <jaxa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010118181124...@ng-cf1.aol.com...
LaBomba182
>an expert....
>From: "Tim Marks"
>Answer the question on the table Jax. Why should we listen to you talk
>about diesels? So far, you have expressed no more experience in operating
>and maintaining diesel engines then I learned taking Thermodynamics 201 in
>college 14 years ago (read: none). What is your operating experience?
>
He doesn't have
time to answer questions Tim, he`s to busy coming up with personal quotes. Like
"Just do it." God that cracks me up! What an original thinker.
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
>>>From: ka...@FS.Denninger.net (Karl Denninger)
>>
>>>Anything over 210 will crack most high performance diesel heads - those
>that
>>
>>>are found in yachts, sportfishing and cruising (planing hull) boats.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Let me get this straight, diesels run at 190 degrees but if they hit 210
>they
>>crack there heads! Get real Karl.
>>
>
>In talking with a vendor at the Annapolis (sail)boatshow who sold large
>diesels
>to the powerboat market, I wondered out loud about why he took so much effort
>to proclaim that his engines had the cylinder head that was integral with the
>block (this is very unusual to my experience. In fact, I was aware of it
>only
>because Oufenhauser (sp?) Indy engines did this.). He said the powerboat
>market just plain flat out expected a large diesel (used in powerboat) to
>blow
>the head gasket and/or crack the head and he had to build them as one piece
>to
>prove to the buyers that the engine wouldn't pack it in early on.
>
Wow, you talked
to a vender. Well, I guess that increased your real world diesel knowledge 100%
then. And how does that back up Karl`s statement? Did you ask at what temp. all
those heads cracked at.
>On sailboat diesels, a cracked head is third behind glazing of the
walls
>(from
>idly too much) as reason for high buck engine repairs. Blown injectors from
>cruddy fuel is the big #1.
>
Actually, I think
you will find lack of proper preventative maintenance is the number one cause
of all of the above.
>btw, if you accept Pascoe's
figures, something between $10 and $20 million a
>hear is spent in Ft Lauderdale alone on professional repair of diesel engines
>in recreational boats. Even if FtL has 10,000 diesel boats, that's still a
>chunk of change/engine to pay the pros for their services every year.
>
See above.
Capt. Bill
LaBomba182
>shut up
>labomba182 -- who lists his occupation as "boat captain" -- tells us that no
>woman would ever at any time in the past have him
One had me for 15 years and one now has had me for 3 so far.
>He also tells us he
>"fishes"
>for fun.
Why, yes I do. Never said I was a charter fishing captain. You need to broaden
your horizons.
>So. Now we have "Capt Bill" from Florida
who takes his screen name from a
>1950's song by a dead guy floating around in a 14 foot Alumacraft Model D
>powered by an Sea-Horse 18 wearing a captain's cap while he is dragging a
>fishing lure bought a K-Mart behind.
The first part is wrong, check the spelling of my Labomba vs. Richies. But it
sure beats jaxas for a screen name. Although it seems to be working for you.
The second is only partly wrong. I think my dad may have had an
Alumacraft, I am sure we have a Sea-Horse 18 once and I do by lures at K-Mart
from time to time. If you want to pay more for the same lure at a tackle shop
go right ahead. But I never wear a captains hat. Except when my girl friend
wants me to play U-Boat commander in bed.
>But Capt Billy LaBomba DOES know his engines. Yup, he sure
does and *he*
>knows
>that oil burners never break down, at least not in the first (or maybe
>second)
>100,000 usage.
Never said that. I think you need to learn to read for content.
>So, billy, let me ask you this. How often are you supposed to
change the
>lines
>that run between the injector pump and the injectors?
Um, lets see, as needed? I carry spares. And you really need to narrow it down
a bit. Like which brand of engine are you asking about?
>(Maybe you want to check with ricky sluggs? Maybe he knows?)
Thanks, I will, unlike you I can still learn from others.
Your Personal Quote "Just do it" God, that cracks me up
everytime. He He He He.......
Capt. Bill
JAXAshby
> >So, billy, let me ask you this. How often are you supposed to
>change the
>>lines
>>that run between the injector pump and the injectors?
>
>Um, lets see, as needed? I carry spares. And you really need to narrow it
>down
>a bit. Like which brand of engine are you asking about?
>
HOOOONK! Wrong answer. Try again.
btw, if you knew even a little about diesels, you would know this.
>
> Your Personal Quote "Just do it" God, that cracks me up
>everytime. He He He He.......
>
> Capt. Bill
boy, you're easily amused. You NEVER heard that quote before? Geesh, you been
living under a rock?
You wanna tell us again why no woman would have you?
btw: ever caught a fish in your Alumacraft?
LaBomba182
>shut up
>From: jaxa...@aol.com
>btw, if you knew even a little about diesels, you would know this.
>
Well I guess you will just have to inlighten me then. Like I said unlike you I
can still learn from others. I did not know there was a set rule for all diesel
engines. I will have to inform my instructor at MTU school about this once you
have posted the answer.
>boy, you're easily amused. You
NEVER heard that quote before? Geesh, you
>been
>living under a rock?
Oh I have heard it. Just never seen anyone lame enough to use it as their
personal quote. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha He He He ........ If that`s an example of
your originality then its no wonder writing is just a hobby with you.
>You wanna tell us again
why no woman would have you?
Sure, if you tell us why yours got rid of you. "Marital Status: D" Although
I don`t quite see how any of this pertains to the topic at hand. Unless of
course it is just your way of trying to steering away from the topic in a
childish way.
>btw: ever caught a fish in your Alumacraft?
>
Yes, I think I did. Again, I am not sure what this has to do with diesels, but
what the hay, at least you are jogging my memory about some fun times I had
with my dad. So keep`m coming.
Capt.
Bill
Harry Krause
What? You caught a fish in a small aluminum boat? And I thought I was the only
one who ever did that.
--
Harry Krause
------------
When I was coming up, it was a dangerous world, and you knew exactly who they
were, he said. It was us vs. them, and it was clear who them was. Today, we
are
not so sure who the they are, but we know they're there. -GW Bush
LaBomba182
>shut up
>What? You caught a fish in a small aluminum boat? And I thought I was the
>only
>one who ever did that.
>--
>Harry Krause
>------------
>
>When I was coming up, it was a dangerous world, and you knew exactly who they
>were, he said. It was us vs. them, and it was clear who them was. Today, we
>are
>not so sure who the they are, but we know they're there. -GW Bush
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yes, several actually. And it looks like we both have managed to hook the same
jaxass.
Capt. Bill
JAXAshby
>>btw, if you knew even a little about diesels, you would know this.
>>
>
>Well I guess you will just have to inlighten me then. Like I said unlike you
>I
>can still learn from others. I did not know there was a set rule for all
>diesel
>engines. I will have to inform my instructor at MTU school about this once
>you
>have posted the answer.
>
Why don't you try asking ricky sluggs. He claims to work for a company that
uses diesel engines.
It's common knowledge, billy. Common knowledge.
JAXAshby
>What? You caught a fish in a small aluminum boat? And I thought I was the
>only
>one who ever did that.
no, harry, you misunderstood. capt billy said he had the FD model. That's the
"large" aluminum boat.
LaBomba182
>shut up
>labomba182 (what happened to the first 181?) writes:
Well if you know it, it must be common. So inlighten me jaxas.
Capt. Bill
Dene Oehme
>>> How often are you supposed to change the
>>> lines that run between the injector pump and the injectors?
>>>
>Um, lets see, as needed?
>
>btw, if you knew even a little about diesels, you would know this.
Why don't you share your knowledge on the subject with us then.
This news group is supposed to be about learning from each other and
sharing ideas, not trying to prove who's the biggest know-all
without backing it up. I'm a diesel mechanic with quite a few years
in the business and this is the first I've heard of changing
injector lines as part of a regular service schedule. Which engines
are you talking about and under what conditions and running hours
are they changed?
Regards
Rick
only thing he has ever changed is his meds (seems about time for another
change)...
Just for the group, in thirty years of working on diesels from 3 to
33,000 hp I have never changed one except on condition. Then again, if I
had a fool like Jax for a customer (and had no scruples at all) I could
probably sell him a new crankcase every year due to discolored paint and
sub-optimal decal condition. He would trash anyone here who said that
idea is BS.
Rick
JAXAshby
>.. it must be common. So inlighten me
When you bend them, billy. when you bend them
JAXAshby
>Why don't you share your knowledge on the subject with us
When you bend them. The lines are not copper. Bend them back and forth and
little flecks will break inside and jam you injectors. Bent lines won't do it
every time, in fact they will fleck only occasionally and eventually.
Good practise is to change the lines whenever you bend them.
The hammer mechanics in the crowd will tell you they never change the lines not
matter what they did while working on the injectors. However, these are the
mechanics whom their associates call "Bebax" as in the customer will "be back"
for a second and third "rework".
LaBomba182
>shut up
>labomba182 asks (and, for him, rather politely):
>
You commenting on
my manners is almost as funny as your Personal Quote: "Just do it" He He He
snicker snicker.....
>>.. it must be common. So inlighten me
>
>When you bend them, billy. when you bend them
>
Well, you may bend you`rs when you fumble around in the engine compartment of
you`r sail boat, but some of us have learned to be careful when we work or
expansive machinery. God, all of New York City must be embarrassed that you
call it home. Oh, and by the way your Capt. Bill hero worship quotient is up to
9.5 on a 1-10 scale. Keep up the good work and I will sent you the official
"Capt. Bill Is My Hero" members kit.
Capt. Bill
Harry Krause
Is there a ball cap showing that famous smile and two fingered salute?
--
Harry Krause
------------
I don't know whether I'm going to win or not. I think I am. I do know I'm
ready
for the job. And, if not, that's just the way it goes. -GW Bush
Twin Boat
injector. I just take both ends off.
Good practise is not to bend them.
LaBomba182
>shut up
Yes, there are. But unfortunately jaxass will not be getting one in his kit as
they do not make hats to fit pin sized heads.
Capt. Bill
JAXAshby
with:
>>>.. it must be common. So inlighten me
>>
>>When you bend them, billy. when you bend them
>>
>
>Well, you may bend you`rs when you fumble around in the engine compartment of
>you`r sail boat, but some of us have learned to be careful when we work or
>expansive machinery.
So, billy, how do YOU remove an injector?
(Let billy run with this, guys. This is going to be good.)
Let us guess. You watched ONE removed when you took your day and half course
in "diesel" repair at "MTU' (whatever that is).
JAXAshby
>n 25 years of heavy equipment repair i never bent a line to get to the
>injector. I just take both ends off.
>
>Good practise is not to bend them.
maybe you didn't understand the term.
good practice is to replace the lines.
It reduces the "rework" (you know, those times when the customer bitches at
your boss because the work wasn't done right the first time and he had to bring
it back.)
Lew Hodgett
> When you bend them. The lines are not copper. Bend them back and forth
and
> little flecks will break inside and jam you injectors. Bent lines won't
do it
> every time, in fact they will fleck only occasionally and eventually.
>
> Good practise is to change the lines whenever you bend them.
Are you suggesting that high pressure diesel injector lines can be bent when
removed during normal injector servicing?
If so, you have been terribly misinformed.
If you do bend them, you probably shouldn't be anywhere in the vicinity of a
diesel engine, with out without tools, in your possession.
If you do bend them, and attempt to straighten them out, chances are pretty
good that they will break rather quickly after being placed back in service.
Either way, high pressure diesel injector steel fuel line is not an item
requiring replacement on any regular maintenance schedule.
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for pictures
There are no problems, only varying degrees of challenging opportunity
LaBomba182
>shut up
>From: jaxass
Down boy, damn it get down! Yes dear, it`s that damn dog again. Me get rid of
him? Hell he was you`rs first. I thought you got rid of him. Yes dear, I know
this is the third pair of good pants he has ruined. I did shut the gate dear,
he just keeps digging under the fence. Yes, yes, I know. But look at him he`s
such a little clueless thing ("MTU, what ever that is") I hate to call the
pound.
Capt. Bill hero worship holding at a strong 9.6.
Capt. (he`s my hero) Bill
P.S. >You watched ONE removed when you took your day and half course
>in "diesel" repair at "MTU' (whatever that is).
>
What ever that is? Oh you`re making this way, way to easy. "Just do it" He He
He He ..............
Dene Oehme
>>Why don't you share your knowledge on the subject with us
>
>When you bend them.
I can't argue with that if the bend is serious enough but I'd have
to ask... What are you doing bending them in the first place. Also
the original guy answered " when nescesary" which I think pretty
much covers the bending issue and he is definately not wrong in
saying that.
>The lines are not copper.
They'd last a very short time if they were.
>Bend them back and forth and
>little flecks will break inside and jam you injectors.
What's with all this bending??
Dene Oehme
>Twin Boat pontificates thusly:
>
>>n 25 years of heavy equipment repair i never bent a line to get to the
>>injector. I just take both ends off.
>>
>>Good practise is not to bend them.
>
>maybe you didn't understand the term.
>
>good practice is to replace the lines.
But you said you only need to replace them if you bend them. As the
above guy said.... there's no need to bend them anyway, so what's
the issue?
JAXAshby
>above guy said.... there's no need to bend them anyway, so what's
>the issue?
If you can get them off without bending them, great. If you bend them, you
replace them.
The original question "How often do you replace the lines between the fuel pump
and the injectors" was asked of those clowns (billy, ricky, etc) who claim they
are (keyboard) experts in diesel repair.
Because they didn't hardly know the answer -- "when you bend them" -- to a very
simple question, it might be assumed they may not know their head from their
ass reagarding diesels. At the very least, one might assume these keyboard
clowns are woefully ignorant regarding a common diesel understanding.
In other words, it appears billy/ricky/ are either keyboards artists or "bebax"
hammer mechanics.
Most likely? billy has never come close to a diesel and ricky may have been a
mechanic that beat flat-rate time on a job only about one time in ten.
Dene Oehme
>If you can get them off without bending them, great. If you bend them, you
>replace them.
Fair enough but I can't ever remember bending one myself to such an
extent that it would warrant replacing. I suppose some people may
inadvertently put big bends in their injector pipes when working
with them but these same people shouldn't be working on the engine
in the first place.
>The original question "How often do you replace the lines between the fuel pump
>and the injectors" was asked of those clowns (billy, ricky, etc) who claim they
>are (keyboard) experts in diesel repair.
I'm not really interested in the name calling/pissing contest but
when you asked the original question and the guy answered "when
necessary", he was correct even by your definition.
>Because they didn't hardly know the answer -- "when you bend them" -- to a very
>simple question, it might be assumed they may not know their head from their
>ass reagarding diesels.
Maybe, maybe not. Not my concern really. The other point of course
is than when you bend them is definately not the only time injector
lines should be replaced either.
>At the very least, one might assume these keyboard
>clowns are woefully ignorant regarding a common diesel understanding.
It's very easy (and usually incorrect) to make assumptions like
that when you have never met the person or seen their skills in
action though. Either way I'd be prepared to give anyone the
benefit of the doubt up untill they prove themselves wrong which on
this particular thread I don't think they have so far.
Cheers.
Harry Krause
>
> >But you said you only need to replace them if you bend them. As the
> >above guy said.... there's no need to bend them anyway, so what's
> >the issue?
>
> If you can get them off without bending them, great. If you bend them, you
> replace them.
So, you're a clumsy "mechanic." Your problem.
--
Harry Krause
------------
We'll let our friends be the peacekeepers and the great country called America
will be the pacemakers. -GW Bush
LaBomba182
>up or shut up
>From: jaxass
Another post where you invoke my name not once but twice! Keep this up and
you`r Capt. Bill Is My Hero quotient will soon be 10 out of 10.
Capt. (jaxass`s personal hero) Bill
P.S. >Because they didn't hardly know
the answer --
"didn`t hardly know"? Good luck with that writing hobby of your`s.
obfusc...@my-deja.com
back and watch the carnage any longer without jumping in. Does this
jaxass really understand how wonderfully entertaining he is.
OK jaxass I have a technical question for you. If you get the answer
right you will still be a jaxass. If you get it wrong we will know you
are an idiot.
BTW, what ARE your credentials!
Here goes: When do you replace a diesel engine?
There is only one correct answer so think more than 4 microseconds on
this.
Obfuscatorus (The orignal Sophist)
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
JAXAshby
>necessary", he was correct even by your definition.
That is a useless answer. Same answer as the question, "when do you replace a
car engine".
JAXAshby
>Here goes: When do you replace a diesel engine?
>
>There is only one correct answer so think more than 4 microseconds on
>this.
ah ... 1 microsecond, ah ... 2 microseconds, ah ... 3 microseconds, ah ... when
you want to lower your yearly repairs bills by installing a gas engine?