Re: Salt Solvents
Wayne.B
>Does anyone know of a good substitute? Obviously it has to be
>something that doesn't eat (or soften) rubber, aluminum or steel as it
>works.
What you are looking for is distilled white vinegar, available at any
good grocery store for several dollars a gallon. It is rumored to be
the secret ingredient in "Salt Away", concealed by the addition of a
blue dye and a fragrance. You should also flush some down your head
once in a while to remove deposits.
Steve Lusardi
Steve
"Ron" <BigEL...@msn.com> wrote in message news:1clg361m94kkrv2pq...@4ax.com...
> As Wilbur recently discovered, the advice to regularly flush outboard
> motors is pretty important. It slows the internal corrosion caused by
> salt deposits, which bond to metal. Lack of proper and regular
> flushing is what killed Wilbur's old Honda. He might have gotten
> another 5 years out of it if he had been a little better about routine
> care.
>
> Simple fresh water will not loosen and remove those bonded deposits,
> so there are products on the market that mix with the flush water and
> do what water alone cannot. They have names such as "Salt Terminator"
> and "Salt Away". The problem with them is they are damned expensive.
> A gallon of any of them is $35-$50.
>
> By looking at the MSDS for these products, you don't learn much about
> them except that the ph is only very slightly acidic. So when looking
> for alternatives, vinegar doesn't seem to be a contender.
>
> Does anyone know of a good substitute? Obviously it has to be
> something that doesn't eat (or soften) rubber, aluminum or steel as it
> works.
>
> I'm wondering if Simple Green, which is essentially a biodegradeable
> degreaser, or maybe even CLR, which is used to disolve Calcium, Lime
> and Rust scale, might be possibilities.
>
> Ideas?
>
Richard Casady
>As Wilbur recently discovered, the advice to regularly flush outboard
>motors is pretty important. It slows the internal corrosion caused by
>salt deposits, which bond to metal. Lack of proper and regular
>flushing is what killed Wilbur's old Honda. He might have gotten
>another 5 years out of it if he had been a little better about routine
>care.
>
>Simple fresh water will not loosen and remove those bonded deposits,
>so there are products on the market that mix with the flush water and
>do what water alone cannot. They have names such as "Salt Terminator"
>and "Salt Away". The problem with them is they are damned expensive.
>A gallon of any of them is $35-$50.
>
>By looking at the MSDS for these products, you don't learn much about
>them except that the ph is only very slightly acidic. So when looking
>for alternatives, vinegar doesn't seem to be a contender.
>
>Does anyone know of a good substitute? Obviously it has to be
>something that doesn't eat (or soften) rubber, aluminum or steel as it
>works.
>
>I'm wondering if Simple Green, which is essentially a biodegradeable
>degreaser, or maybe even CLR, which is used to disolve Calcium, Lime
>and Rust scale, might be possibilities.
The deposits are not salt, which is readily soluble in fresh, or for
that matter sea, water. The deposits are carbonates, notably calcium.
That is, lime. Acids, including vinegar, dissolve it.
Casady
cavelamb
> As Wilbur recently discovered, the advice to regularly flush outboard
> motors is pretty important. It slows the internal corrosion caused by
> salt deposits, which bond to metal. Lack of proper and regular
> flushing is what killed Wilbur's old Honda. He might have gotten
> another 5 years out of it if he had been a little better about routine
> care.
>
> Simple fresh water will not loosen and remove those bonded deposits,
> so there are products on the market that mix with the flush water and
> do what water alone cannot. They have names such as "Salt Terminator"
> and "Salt Away". The problem with them is they are damned expensive.
> A gallon of any of them is $35-$50.
>
> By looking at the MSDS for these products, you don't learn much about
> them except that the ph is only very slightly acidic. So when looking
> for alternatives, vinegar doesn't seem to be a contender.
>
> Does anyone know of a good substitute? Obviously it has to be
> something that doesn't eat (or soften) rubber, aluminum or steel as it
> works.
>
> I'm wondering if Simple Green, which is essentially a biodegradeable
> degreaser, or maybe even CLR, which is used to disolve Calcium, Lime
> and Rust scale, might be possibilities.
>
>
Simple Green will actually CAUSE MORE corrosion...
White vinegar is recommended.
--
Richard Lamb
Wayne.B
>As I already pointed out, the commercially available products are
>barely acidic. And surprisingly, salt water contains measurable
>concentrations of SALT. Once the salt binds to the metal, fresh water
>will NOT flush it out. I am hesitant to use anything acid based for
>this purpose since it may itself cause corrosion, which is what I am
>interested in preventing, not accelerating.
>
>
Distilled white vinegar is less corrosive than sea water.
betwys1
>> The deposits are not salt, which is readily soluble in fresh, or for
>> that matter sea, water. The deposits are carbonates, notably calcium.
>> That is, lime. Acids, including vinegar, dissolve it.
>>
>> Casady
>
> As I already pointed out, the commercially available products are
> barely acidic. And surprisingly, salt water contains measurable
> concentrations of SALT. Once the salt binds to the metal, fresh water
> will NOT flush it out. I am hesitant to use anything acid based for
> this purpose since it may itself cause corrosion, which is what I am
> interested in preventing, not accelerating.
>
>
>
Hmmm....salt is a compound already, which does not particularly bind to
metals. And vinegar is not highly acidic (conc acetic = 2.8pH) and
table salt DOES disolve in fresh water, and to some extent in salt water
that's not saturated.
But you probably mean that a salt and vinegar mix is corrosive - as
you may demonstrate by placing a copper penny in a salt/vinegar
solution. More corrosive (and dangerous) yet is an addition of bleach
to the salt and vinegar. The chlorine that's evolved not only
corrodes the penny but it quickly forms pits.
Alkaline solutions are much less corrosive usually, though a trendy
and dangerous exploding bottle demo involves caustic solution with
some aluminum foil bits to shake into the solution. The aluminum and the
caustic solution evolves gas, which soon goes bang.
Brian W
Larry
news:1clg361m94kkrv2pq...@4ax.com:
> Does anyone know of a good substitute? Obviously it has to be
> something that doesn't eat (or soften) rubber, aluminum or steel as it
> works.
>
> I'm wondering if Simple Green, which is essentially a biodegradeable
> degreaser, or maybe even CLR, which is used to disolve Calcium, Lime
> and Rust scale, might be possibilities.
>
> Ideas?
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid
Sulfamic acid is what is used as descaler in coffee pots, water
distillers and other home boiler products like irons. It's a stronger
acid than vinegar, which is very weak for descaling purposes, but not as
toxic and dangerous as hydrochloric acid eating your hands.
It's quite cheap and readily available:
http://www.amazon.com/Custom-Building-TLSAC1-Sulfamic-
Cleaner/dp/B001AZL24M
It's also used to clean grout, tile, concrete and masonry.
The crystals are easy to store but will amazingly clean its container of
all humidity and become a cake in a week. No problem. It smashes up
back into its fine crystalline form by banging the container on
something hard sealed up, sort of like sugar.
Avoid getting it on you as it will burn skin....eventually....but washes
right off with just tap water.
Buy a little quantity from any grocery store's coffee pot cleaner
section and try it out on a piece of your rubber gasket in the motor.
It won't eat coffee pot seals as it descales the boilers.
--
Global Warming and Creationism are to science what iPhone 4 is to
antennas...
Larry
Bruce in Bangkok
>As Wilbur recently discovered, the advice to regularly flush outboard
>motors is pretty important. It slows the internal corrosion caused by
>salt deposits, which bond to metal. Lack of proper and regular
>flushing is what killed Wilbur's old Honda. He might have gotten
>another 5 years out of it if he had been a little better about routine
>care.
>
>Simple fresh water will not loosen and remove those bonded deposits,
>so there are products on the market that mix with the flush water and
>do what water alone cannot. They have names such as "Salt Terminator"
>and "Salt Away". The problem with them is they are damned expensive.
>A gallon of any of them is $35-$50.
>
>By looking at the MSDS for these products, you don't learn much about
>them except that the ph is only very slightly acidic. So when looking
>for alternatives, vinegar doesn't seem to be a contender.
>
>Does anyone know of a good substitute? Obviously it has to be
>something that doesn't eat (or soften) rubber, aluminum or steel as it
>works.
>
>I'm wondering if Simple Green, which is essentially a biodegradeable
>degreaser, or maybe even CLR, which is used to disolve Calcium, Lime
>and Rust scale, might be possibilities.
>
>Ideas?
Years ago an Australian I knew had some stuff that he said he bought
at a fishing boat place. It was for use in raw water cooled diesels in
fishing trawlers. You disconnected the water inlet and stuck the inlet
in a bucket of this stuff and idled or spun the engine with the
starter until the cooling system was completely full of this stuff.
shut down the engine and reconnect the water inlet. You then waited a
specified amount of time and then opened the inlet sea cock and
started the engine and ran it for another specified amount of time to
ensure that all the "cleaner" was out of the system.
According to the Australian he had used the "cleaner" annually for the
past ten years, in the same raw water cooled engine, and had no
cooling problems to date. He said it was in common use in fishing
boats in Australia. He also said that it was highly aggressive and
while he didn't know whether it was alkali or acidic it burned when
you got any on you.
I mention this as I have tried the vinegar technique and while it
might work if used every time the O.B. was put in the water, from new,
it doesn't work once the deposits have formed. In fact I've taken
engines apart and soaked them in a bucket of acetic acid of twice the
strength of vinegar for days. It did not remove the caked deposits.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Larry
news:fvii365t2j80p349k...@4ax.com:
> Years ago an Australian I knew had some stuff that he said he bought
> at a fishing boat place. It was for use in raw water cooled diesels in
> fishing trawlers. You disconnected the water inlet and stuck the inlet
> in a bucket of this stuff and idled or spun the engine with the
> starter until the cooling system was completely full of this stuff.
> shut down the engine and reconnect the water inlet. You then waited a
> specified amount of time and then opened the inlet sea cock and
> started the engine and ran it for another specified amount of time to
> ensure that all the "cleaner" was out of the system.
>
That describes the descaling process when using Sulfamic Acid. You warm
the engine up first to make sure the heat exchanger is hot, which increases
the chemical reaction between the acid and the scale, perk it in the acid
for a time, then do a seawater flush to get the acid and dissolved scale
out of it into the sea before it eats away too much metal....works great!
--
Just bought a new Smart car - Silver n Black....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obn9TJ6Xtc8
Larry
Bruce in Bangkok
So now it is "Smart Larry"?
As we only have stupid cars over here what is a Smart Car? I had
assumed it was just another gasoline-electric car?
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Wayne.B
>Just bought a new Smart car - Silver n Black....
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obn9TJ6Xtc8
What happened to the old Mercedes diesel?
Larry
> As we only have stupid cars over here what is a Smart Car? I had
> assumed it was just another gasoline-electric car?
>
>
Built by Mercedes Benz and designed by Swatch, the Swiss watch company many
years ago, it's a 3-cyl 4-stroke gas engine completely computer controlled
hooked to a 5 speed computer-shifted manual transmission with electric
clutch. I holds a little over 8 US gallons of 91+ octane gas because the
engine has a 10:1 compression ratio and the cheap stuff will knock....a
negative in 2010 as far as I'm concerned, but that's it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIyUhAUiS3U
Larry
news:fdvk36lvk3r2mfoqf...@4ax.com:
It's sitting on the driveway in its normal position. I think Smart will
replace my Honda Reflex 250cc scooter more than the big station wagon.
I made a deal with my Mercedes mechanic to trade the oldest 220D, which
was rusting out from leaking windscreen and rear glass seals for some
extensive service on the 300TD station wagon (estate wagon, Bruce). It
was a very good deal for both of us.
The 220D has actually gone home to Germany! My German mechanic's friend
wanted it so my mechanic sold it to him and it was put in a
containership and repatriated to Stuttgart where it is, one more time,
going through an extensive restoration as its mechanicals was perfect.
I do miss it, but its time had come. Smart will take half its parking
space tomorrow....(c;]
Americans are not allowed to buy the 73 miles per US Gallon Smart CDi
diesel car. I could have gone to Canada and brought one home from a
dealer up in St Kathrines across Niagara Falls from Buffalo, but it is a
horrible bureaucratic nightmare to get it registered in the USA, even
though it IS on the EPA's list of excluded cars, it being the most fuel
efficient car made.
So, I kept hunting for a sanely colored, extra-nice-condition Smart past
the 2008 start date for US cars. This car is not excellent...it's
perfect! There's not so much as a stone peck in the plastic body
parts!....but that will change. 5400 miles isn't even due the first
major service, but it's going to get it first thing Tuesday morning at
the local Smart dealer....BEFORE the 2-year warranty expires later this
month....
The old Mercedes still has its uses the Smart cannot fill. It's also
very cheap-to-keep with just basic insurance on it and it uses so little
maintenance and free fuel.
I still have the veggie-powered '89 Chevy-chassis V-8 diesel (6.2L) Air
Force Stepvan, "The Sergeant". She can haul anything I'll ever need
and, again, with basic insurance and free fuel to fill its Frybrid oil
heater, it operates for almost nothing and can sit there blocking my
view of the river waiting for my use. Its 16,000 pound massive
hitch/pintle hook can haul off anything I want to put on it.....even
towed a big sport fisherman and its big Chevy pickup up the ramp when
the Chevy couldn't get traction and was near sliding under the seawater
when I showed up....
--
Just bought a new Smart car - Silver n Black....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obn9TJ6Xtc8
Larry
Me
corrosion inhibitor (thiourea?) and surfactants. The tubing in my
expresso machine is all stainless steel on the hot side, silicone on the
cold side. In my outboards, it's running through alloy cooling jackets
in the head and barrels and goodness knows what other metals elsewhere.
Anyway, I'm not convinced that the "salt" build-up inside motors is
"carbonates" like scale (which also forms as an opaque white deposit).
When I pulled a motor apart, the "salt" I removed wouldn't even dissolve
in warm white vinegar (4% acetic), so I don't know that sulphamic acid
would work (I didn't try it). I think it might be a complex of
carbonates but also perhaps hydroxides of aluminium, bound up with a gel
of aluminium chlorhydrates, hence the insolubility - even in dilute
acetic acid. If someone can extract some of this salt and dissolve it
effectively in an acid solution or proprietary cleaner that doesn't also
dissolve a piece of aluminium foil in the same beaker, I'd consider
using it. Until then, I'm a bit wary and not convinced it's going to
work. I'm also a bit concerned that anything unknown (proprietary
secret formula) put through the cooling system might affect the internal
anode(s) in the cooling channels in the barrels. Anodes sometime fail
because a layer of corrosion compound forms on the surface, changing the
electrical potential of the sacrificial metal. I think that's the case
with the anode on the leg of my small yamaha - it's still almost shiny
and looks new after 10 years including use in salt water. It's just
not working (and it is an OEM part), further evidenced by some pitting
corrosion on the SS prop shaft, indicating electrolysis. Why it's not
working, I don't know.
Jim
> As Wilbur recently discovered, the advice to regularly flush outboard
> motors is pretty important. It slows the internal corrosion caused by
> salt deposits, which bond to metal. Lack of proper and regular
> flushing is what killed Wilbur's old Honda. He might have gotten
> another 5 years out of it if he had been a little better about routine
> care.
>
> Simple fresh water will not loosen and remove those bonded deposits,
> so there are products on the market that mix with the flush water and
> do what water alone cannot. They have names such as "Salt Terminator"
> and "Salt Away". The problem with them is they are damned expensive.
> A gallon of any of them is $35-$50.
>
> By looking at the MSDS for these products, you don't learn much about
> them except that the ph is only very slightly acidic. So when looking
> for alternatives, vinegar doesn't seem to be a contender.
>
> something that doesn't eat (or soften) rubber, aluminum or steel as it
> works.
>
> I'm wondering if Simple Green, which is essentially a biodegradeable
> degreaser, or maybe even CLR, which is used to disolve Calcium, Lime
> and Rust scale, might be possibilities.
>
> Ideas?
>
1. Ignore it. An outboard engine is not worth the cost of descaling.
By the time scale builds enough to seriously affect the cooling system,
the engine has other problems and should be overhauled or replaced.
Since scale build-up varies by location, if your locality dictates
differently, ignoring it may be a bad idea.
2. If you're the type to spend time/money on descaling, at least ensure
your your time/money is having an effect.
That means measuring the amount of scale being removed.
At least you can see if you're wasting your money on snake oil.
Since I prefer idea 1, the only thoughts I have on measuring are
a. run the descaling operation in a barrel, so the results can be seen
instead of flushed down the driveway.
Any successful descaling operation should result in visible mineral
presence in the descaling solution.
b. use an accurate thermometer to measure for better heat transfer after
the operation, and/or an accurate pressure gage to measure for better
water pressure. These are very tricky due to variables, but if your
system was scaled enough, and the descaling worked enough, you should
see results.
Another caveat to descaling is possible metal removal.
Without valid scientific testing the descaling benefit outweighs loss of
metal, I would hesitate in descaling.
Salt-Away has it's fans for cleaning away external salt, and that is
readily measured, but I'd want evidence it works as a cooling system
descaler for OB's.
Since I trailer, flushing salt out isn't an issue. Muffs in the
driveway and the fresh water hose.
Wilbur has his OB hanging on the transom of a sailboat.
How do the sailboaters and cruisers here with dinghy motors handle flushing?
I suspect many of those don't get flushed much.
Jim - Curious
Bruce in Bangkok
"Cruisers" don't flush, just hang it on the transom.
Surprisingly there seem to be few over heating problems. I had a
second hand Marina 5 HP that I used for a couple of years to go back
and forth to the boat - live aboard, Singapore Straits - and had no
problems for the period. I suspect that it is a case that most live a
boards don't run the engine at full throttle, just put-put back and
forth to shore.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Larry
> Anyway, I'm not convinced that the "salt" build-up inside motors is
> "carbonates" like scale (which also forms as an opaque white deposit).
> When I pulled a motor apart, the "salt" I removed wouldn't even dissolve
> in warm white vinegar (4% acetic), so I don't know that sulphamic acid
> would work (I didn't try it). I think it might be a complex of
> carbonates but also perhaps hydroxides of aluminium, bound up with a gel
> of aluminium chlorhydrates, hence the insolubility - even in dilute
>
Just like in my water distillers, seawater is BOILING inside the water
jackets of the cylinders the whole time the outboard is running. There's a
thin layer of boiling water soaking up those calories from the hot cylinder
walls that makes it cool the engine.
I've watched the water boil on a video some company made by screwing a
fiber optic high temp camera into the water jacket of a Chevy 350 V-8 head.
Man that thing is just BOILING during normal running! You don't think much
about it until a hose breaks or she blows the radiator cap but every engine
on the road is on the verge of blowing that cap every time you start it.
--
iPhone 4 is to cellular technology what the Titanic is to cruise ships.
Larry
Larry
> Anodes sometime fail
> because a layer of corrosion compound forms on the surface, changing the
> electrical potential of the sacrificial metal. I think that's the case
> with the anode on the leg of my small yamaha - it's still almost shiny
> and looks new after 10 years including use in salt water. It's just
> not working (and it is an OEM part), further evidenced by some pitting
> corrosion on the SS prop shaft, indicating electrolysis. Why it's not
> working, I don't know.
>
We found PAINT insulating the zinc block on a 40hp Yamaha from the chassis
of the outboard foot in that little slot they put it in, here. I polished
off the PAINT so the block touched bare potmetal inside that slot and a few
weeks later that zinc block was eaten half away in summer hot water!
All the pitting of the prop stopped on that day so it must be working now.
Before replacing the zinc, or now that it's not working, polish off the
paint under it to make SURE you have a great ELECTRICAL contact to the
metal of the outboard motor foot. Measure the resistance from touching the
block to touching the prop with a $3 digital multimeter in resistance mode.
It should be near 0 ohms......or it won't work to protect the motor.
cavelamb
recommendation to flush after every use?
Jim
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:03:40 -0500, Jim <**@??.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am not at all convinced that the hose fitting method gets past the
> thermostat, since the engine is not running when you use it. It does
> flush out the leg, though, which I'm sure is beneficial. The passages
> in the engine itself, are where the film is more likely to form and
> harden, due to heat. That's what the Salt-X. or Salt_away is for.
> Fresh water alone won't do anything for that.
>
> I sail in salt water, but keep the boat up a river far enough where
> the water is almost completely fresh, so you'd think that the run home
> each time up the river would remove the salt. I can tell you that it
> does NOT.
>
> For now, I have bought another gallon of Salt-X, which I know works. I
> just don't like the cost. It's still a lot cheaper than not using it.
>
Seems scale build-up is highly related to locality, and probably cooling
system design.
Since you'll probably never find the exact composition of Salt-X, you
might do some simple experiments with old scaled parts and some pans.
Try Salt-X in one and various strengths of acetic or other calcium
carbonate dissolving acids in the others, and do some comparisons.
You can see some ph measurements and dissolving characteristics here, at
the bottom of the article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_carbonate
Though I've done simple chemical tests on liquids, I'm no chemist.
But you're dealing with only a few possible acids, none dangerous if
handled properly.
From the same article, "Solutions of strong (HCl), moderately strong
(sulfamic) or weak (acetic, citric, sorbic, lactic, phosphoric acids are
commercially available."
A ph meter or litmus paper kit will be needed.
Or you could just wing it, and if you see that one of your test subject
acids works as good or better than the Salt-X, use it.
Since Salt-X has presumably covered the liability issue of eating away
engine metal, and you like it, you'd best try to determine which acid it
contains by testing for them.
You'll have to look up how to detect them, and buy some lab equipment.
ph will tell you strength.
Let's say you find the right acid and approximate strength by testing,
and have the main Salt-X components.
Then you want to consider what rust inhibitor/neutralizer, which is a
common descaler component, is probably contained in the Salt-X.
A dose of some type of rust inhibitor/neutralizer right after using your
solution might take care of that.
Probably can't put that in the solution even if Salt-X has done so.
Their tricky chemists probably have some other chemical in there that
prevents the rust inhibitor/neutralizer from being neutralized by the acid.
Hate to say this, but after costing the alternatives as I've proposed,
you'll probably find that Salt-X is a bargain.
But if you go ahead and tinker with it and find you can duplicate Salt-X
results with grocery store vinegar or chemical supplier goods much
cheaper, you can make a lot of people happy.
Or start your own company and make some money.
Jim - Just ideas, and I repeat, I'm obviously not a chemist.
Hanz
Hanz