rope start diesel
ia...@my-deja.com
It seems quite a common feature of petrol engines (or was in the old
days at least), but not so common in relation to diesels. This is not
surprising, given the extra compression of a diesel you have to
overcome.
My engine's a Kubota of 13.5 HP and around 500 cc. Spoke to Beta
(engine's marinizer and suplier) and Kubota UK; drew a blank, they
didn't think it could be done.
How hard can it be though....
* I figure a diesel has twice the compression of a petrol; means twice
the effort. My engine's a twin though, so the peak torque required must
be half that of a single. Means my engine is about as hard to turn over
as a 500 cc single petrol engine. They used to kick over motorbikes
like this didn't they?
* I've seen a posting from a guy saying he could hand start his Ducati
SINGLE engine, with compression lever closed (my engine's got no
decompression levers).
* I believe there's a small Ruggerini boat engine with emergency rope
start.
My plan would be to bolt on a notched pulley outboard of the alternator
drive one. Then maybe rig up a turning block to give me a clearer pull
at the thing. I throw my 15 stone (210 lb) of blubber into it and hey
presto... chug chug chug.
Am I mad or what? Does anyone else think it's worth going to these
lengths to get an emergency start facility?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Eugene Gruender
>
> I'd like to rig up an emergency rope start for my diesel.
>
> It seems quite a common feature of petrol engines (or was in the old
> days at least), but not so common in relation to diesels. This is not
> surprising, given the extra compression of a diesel you have to
> overcome.
>
> My engine's a Kubota of 13.5 HP and around 500 cc. Spoke to Beta
> (engine's marinizer and suplier) and Kubota UK; drew a blank, they
> didn't think it could be done.
>
> How hard can it be though....
>
> * I figure a diesel has twice the compression of a petrol; means twice
> the effort. My engine's a twin though, so the peak torque required must
> be half that of a single. Means my engine is about as hard to turn over
> as a 500 cc single petrol engine. They used to kick over motorbikes
> like this didn't they?
With a compression release and spark retart!
> * I've seen a posting from a guy saying he could hand start his Ducati
> SINGLE engine, with compression lever closed (my engine's got no
> decompression levers).
>
> * I believe there's a small Ruggerini boat engine with emergency rope
> start.
>
> My plan would be to bolt on a notched pulley outboard of the alternator
> drive one. Then maybe rig up a turning block to give me a clearer pull
> at the thing. I throw my 15 stone (210 lb) of blubber into it and hey
> presto... chug chug chug.
>
> Am I mad or what? Does anyone else think it's worth going to these
> lengths to get an emergency start facility?
I've tried had to start my 30 HP Yanmar 3 cylinder by hand with the
crank. I've locked open the compression release on two cylinders,
cranked it hard as I could with the release on the third cylinder open,
shut the third and have never gotten it to go over the top on that one
cylinder.
I'm skeptical that you'll pull it off (no pun intended) but I'm curious
to see how it goes. Keep us posted.
Gene Gruender
Rainbow Chaser
Gene Gruender
Rainbow Chaser
Steve
mine on several occasions by cranking as fast as I can with both hands, then
drop one of the compression releases to let it start on one cylinder. Once
the engine has go a little more rpm, I drop the other release lever.
I doubt the you could do it with a pull rope because of the mass of the
flywheel in a diesel. And not at all unless you have a compression release.
Steve
s/v Good Intentions
Jon V
> ia...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to rig up an emergency rope start for my diesel.
> >
> > It seems quite a common feature of petrol engines (or was in the old
> > days at least), but not so common in relation to diesels. This is not
> > surprising, given the extra compression of a diesel you have to
> > overcome.
> >
> > My engine's a Kubota of 13.5 HP and around 500 cc. Spoke to Beta
> > (engine's marinizer and suplier) and Kubota UK; drew a blank, they
> > didn't think it could be done.
> >
> > How hard can it be though....
> >
> > * I figure a diesel has twice the compression of a petrol; means twice
> > the effort. My engine's a twin though, so the peak torque required must
> > be half that of a single. Means my engine is about as hard to turn over
> > as a 500 cc single petrol engine. They used to kick over motorbikes
> > like this didn't they?
>
>
> With a compression release and spark retart!
It was my understanding that the main reason for the retard was to prevent
injury... but it does point out the major difference between gas and
diesel: The gasoline engines will run as long as there is a sufficient
fuel/air mixture and the plug fires after TDC. The diesel needs to have
sufficient speed to heat the fuel/air mixture to cause the engine to fire.
Harder.
I know for a fact that my 1100CC motorcycle doesn't have a compression
release or manual ignition controls. You can kick-start it (if you are
stupid enough). I've done it, even. Once. Of course, that's a four, so it
hardly counts.
> > * I've seen a posting from a guy saying he could hand start his Ducati
> > SINGLE engine, with compression lever closed (my engine's got no
> > decompression levers).
> >
> > * I believe there's a small Ruggerini boat engine with emergency rope
> > start.
> >
> > My plan would be to bolt on a notched pulley outboard of the alternator
> > drive one. Then maybe rig up a turning block to give me a clearer pull
> > at the thing. I throw my 15 stone (210 lb) of blubber into it and hey
> > presto... chug chug chug.
> >
> > Am I mad or what? Does anyone else think it's worth going to these
> > lengths to get an emergency start facility?
I heard a story somewhere (probably here) about a team of French sailors
pull-staring a diesel by wrapping a sheer around one of the pullies and
forming a line out the companionway. New meaning for "chain jerk". I can't
remember the engine size.
People sell small (3-6HP) pull-start-only diesels all the time.
> I've tried had to start my 30 HP Yanmar 3 cylinder by hand with the
> crank. I've locked open the compression release on two cylinders,
> cranked it hard as I could with the release on the third cylinder open,
> shut the third and have never gotten it to go over the top on that one
> cylinder.
I have no direct experience with manually starting boat diesels. I have
push-started diesel cars from time to time, though... and you do learn
something from that.
RPM is the key. If you can't get the engine spinning 60-100RPM (gustimated
numbers), you aren't going to do anything but wind yourself.
From everything I've read about pull-start and crank-start multi-cylinder
diesels, you've got to pop all of the compression releases, spin it as
fast as you can possibly spin the sucker, and release one release. Then
you just hope the cylinder fires, and when it doesn't you try again. If it
does, you bring in the other cylinders.
--
Jon
___________________________________________________________________________
They also surf who only stand on waves.
SAIL LOCO
you would stand, kneel etc. to pull a rope.
"Trains are a winter sport"
Jim McMurray
I'm pretty paranoid about not having the battery to start after
a long sail using instruments/nav. lights.
If you can do it then at least you wouldnt break an arm like a crank
Promises if your unwary.
If you do try it, I would like to know how you do.
Jim
ia...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I'd like to rig up an emergency rope start for my diesel.
>
> It seems quite a common feature of petrol engines (or was in the old
> days at least), but not so common in relation to diesels. This is not
> surprising, given the extra compression of a diesel you have to
> overcome.
>
> My engine's a Kubota of 13.5 HP and around 500 cc. Spoke to Beta
> (engine's marinizer and suplier) and Kubota UK; drew a blank, they
> didn't think it could be done.
>
> How hard can it be though....
>
> * I figure a diesel has twice the compression of a petrol; means twice
> the effort. My engine's a twin though, so the peak torque required must
> be half that of a single. Means my engine is about as hard to turn over
> as a 500 cc single petrol engine. They used to kick over motorbikes
> like this didn't they?
>
--
Cap'n Jim McMurray
S/V Yuyake
1987 O'day 272LE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thomas Kranz
you cranked up the spring and released it all at once to spin the engine
over.
Basically, I think you need some kind of "accumulator" to store some energy.
Compressed air is also an excellent medium for storing energy. Air motors
are light and powerful; so is air-over-hydraulic power running a hydraulic
motor as an auxilary starter.
These are a couple of alternative ideas for you. (So is carrying an extra
battery - grin)
Just thought of another one. Use a winch to crank a couple of gerry cans or
other handy weight ten or fifteen feet in the air through a block on the
mast, running the other end of the line down and wrapping it around your
emergency start pulley - instant big-time assist when you pull it over.
Laugh if you will, but some of Rube Goldberg's inventions were really
workable!
- Tom
ia...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8pb2hk$v6p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Terry Spragg
Thomas Kranz wrote:
>
> How about a spring? Some old lawnmowers used a spring starting system where
> you cranked up the spring and released it all at once to spin the engine
> over.
>
How about a spring powered (human cranked!) 'human powered'
helicopter? There's a big prize!
Terry K
> Basically, I think you need some kind of "accumulator" to store some energy.
> Compressed air is also an excellent medium for storing energy. Air motors
> are light and powerful; so is air-over-hydraulic power running a hydraulic
> motor as an auxilary starter.
>
> These are a couple of alternative ideas for you. (So is carrying an extra
> battery - grin)
>
> Just thought of another one. Use a winch to crank a couple of gerry cans or
> other handy weight ten or fifteen feet in the air through a block on the
> mast, running the other end of the line down and wrapping it around your
> emergency start pulley - instant big-time assist when you pull it over.
>
> Laugh if you will, but some of Rube Goldberg's inventions were really
> workable!
LOL! but it works! So does gunpowder in the cylinders. -TK
edgar cove
to be heavy enough to store the energy needed to get it over
compression.
--
edgar (remove nospam from return address for e-mail reply)
Nikki Locke
> I'd like to rig up an emergency rope start for my diesel.
> Am I mad or what? Does anyone else think it's worth going to these
> lengths to get an emergency start facility?
Try an experiment. Bung a large spanner on the alternator drive pulley,
and see if you can turn the engine over. If you can't do it with a
spanner, you probably aren't going to do it with a rope.
--
Nikki Locke, Trumphurst Ltd. PC & Unix consultancy & programming
ni...@trumphurst.com http://www.trumphurst.com/
Geoff Blake
[snip]
: I have no direct experience with manually starting boat diesels. I have
: push-started diesel cars from time to time, though... and you do learn
: something from that.
Generally the "rope" in this case is on the back of the car in front :-)
: RPM is the key. If you can't get the engine spinning 60-100RPM (gustimated
: numbers), you aren't going to do anything but wind yourself.
In the case of small diesels (250 - 500cc/cylinder) you need 200-400rpm to
be sure of a start. The problem is that a cold engine looses heat through
(to) the cylinder head/walls as rapidly as the compression generates it.
Spring starters (discussed here before) spin the engine for one turn or so
but at 600+rpm.
: From everything I've read about pull-start and crank-start multi-cylinder
: diesels, you've got to pop all of the compression releases, spin it as
: fast as you can possibly spin the sucker, and release one release. Then
: you just hope the cylinder fires, and when it doesn't you try again. If it
: does, you bring in the other cylinders.
Yep!
Geoff
--
Geoff Blake geoff (at) palaemon . co . uk linux 2.0.36
Chelmsford g8gnz @ g8gnz . ampr . org sparc - i586
Please, only use the .ampr.org address if you know what you are doing
Intel create faster processors - Microsoft create slower processes
David Smalley
>
> How about a spring? Some old lawnmowers used a spring starting system where
> you cranked up the spring and released it all at once to spin the engine
> over.
>
> Basically, I think you need some kind of "accumulator" to store some energy.
> Compressed air is also an excellent medium for storing energy. Air motors
> are light and powerful; so is air-over-hydraulic power running a hydraulic
> motor as an auxilary starter.
>
> These are a couple of alternative ideas for you. (So is carrying an extra
> battery - grin)
>
> Just thought of another one. Use a winch to crank a couple of gerry cans or
> other handy weight ten or fifteen feet in the air through a block on the
> mast, running the other end of the line down and wrapping it around your
> emergency start pulley - instant big-time assist when you pull it over.
>
> Laugh if you will, but some of Rube Goldberg's inventions were really
> workable!
I was trying to stay out of this discussion but since you've reached
Rube Goldberg I guess it is my turn. IMHO the only truly plausable
method of starting a diesel by hand that did not have both a hand crank
and a compression release is to use a pedal powered generator/alternator
to recharge your battery.
I have hand started Lister generators literally hundreds of times and
there is NO WAY to start a diesel with a hand rope which only goes
through one or two compression cycles. Sometimes you have to crank and
crank and crank to help her get going.
--
DAVe & Skoshi, '69 Stamas 26'
http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/
terry_...@my-deja.com
with a flywheel designed to take a rope. The manual says to hand
start - be sure to activate the decompressor control first. I have
never had to pull start the engine this way. It would be very
difficult, if not impossible, to pull on the rope as a straight pull is
not possible owing to the engine being tucked under the cockpit a short
distance.
I would think that the use of a a small amount of starting fluid
(ether?) sprayed into the air inlet would make starting much easier,
but this might damage the engine.
I agree, however, that a marine engine should have a second way to
start. But if you can't start the engine - that is what sails (and tow
boats) were made for. LOL
Foster Price
Anyone suggested having a look at www.startwell.com yet (for spring
starters)
Regards - Foster
edgar cove <ed...@nospam.coves.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mt7yYJAP...@coves.demon.co.uk...
Max Lynn
starter, but they apparently work! The only problem I see is that they
don't make a model for the common sailboat engines. Something that wasn't
explained too well, though. Do you have to remove the regular starter to
install these? Sounds like they recommend the use of ether when using
these units. That bothers some people, but I've seen it done pretty
commonly in the higher latitudes and never seen an engine destroyed.
"Foster Price" <foster...@southlanddc.govt.nz> wrote in message
news:96858082...@inv.ihug.co.nz...
Jon V
> Jon V (j...@valesh.com) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> : I have no direct experience with manually starting boat diesels. I have
> : push-started diesel cars from time to time, though... and you do learn
> : something from that.
>
> Generally the "rope" in this case is on the back of the car in front :-)
I wish! No. "Time to time" was actually mainly once. Pre-cellphone (at
least for me) so I was in that "push it or hoof it" mode. I got it
started. I had to manually start it one other time (the first trip was to
the parts store, the next trip was home to re-starterize), and, knowing at
least enough to be considered lazy, parked at the top of a hill...
> : RPM is the key. If you can't get the engine spinning 60-100RPM (gustimated
> : numbers), you aren't going to do anything but wind yourself.
>
> In the case of small diesels (250 - 500cc/cylinder) you need 200-400rpm to
> be sure of a start. The problem is that a cold engine looses heat through
> (to) the cylinder head/walls as rapidly as the compression generates it.
I was guestimating based on my limited push-starting experience. At the
time, I wasn't really all that interested in the more abstract issues of
diesel engine starting RPM. ;-)
But, I figure the circumference of the tire is about 65", and I can't have
been moving even 100"/s (call it 5 MPH). 90 tire RPM. I don't know what
the final drive is on that particular car in 3rd gear (which, IIRC, was
what I needed to use to keep the car from skidding to a stop. Maybe 2nd
did it...). Whatever you come up with, it is closer to your numbers than
mine.
--
Jon
___________________________________________________________________________
The other day I... uh, no, that wasn't me.
-- Steven Wright
ia...@my-deja.com
General opinion seems to be on the negative side.
I do have a dual battery system. This isn't the whole story though,
there's still the possibility of failures in the starter/solonoid etc.
to contend with.
Had exactly this sort of trouble the other day - bad spade terminal
contact on the pre-engager/solonoid thingy. Luckily I was in the marina
and quickly traced it. It does make you think though.
Had a look at that sprung starter site. These are serious(and
expensive) looking units. Smallest (the 'mini') is for 2.5 litre
engine! Maybe we could persuade them to do a micro size.
I do know what it's like to hand start an engine; this being the Volvo
MD1 I junked in favour of the Beta. I suppose I miss the fun of it
most. It's coming back to me now; the run up to speed, the sudden lunge
for the decomp' lever, the furius heaving on the handle trying to keep
it turning over. The first quiet, hollow little knock-knock detonations
growing steadily louder and faster, until it LIVES.