Anti fouling paint
Bruce in Bangkok
the top sides (later I will author a long, forlorn, story about how
not to paint a boat) but for now am wondering what anti fouling paint
to use. The boat has, probably 15 years of anti fouling accumulation
on the bottom so this year we are going to scrape it all off and start
new.
I have been using Jotun commercial (for barges) bottom paint for years
(the kind with TBT in it) and have been getting about 5 years out of
it. But now that TBT based paints are no longer available I am
debating what to use.
At the moment there seem to be three choices (1) Jotun self polishing
paint in various grades depending on boat speed; (2) Chugoku self
polishing, again in different grades and (3) a copper and epoxy mix
that used to be called "CopperBot" but I now believe has a different
name, that is supposed to last ten years or more.
Now, to cut to the chase. Does anybody have actual experience with
current anti fouling paints in tropical waters?
P.S. do not suggest adding TBT to an existing anti fouling paint as a
number of friends have tried that route with extremely variable
results ranging from the paint never hardening to the paint not
sticking. One or two have had good results but the variation from boat
to boat does not seem to fit any pattern. One guy says he mixes ten
percent TBT and it works; another claimed to use 3 percent and the
paint didn't harden.....
Anyone with actual experience that can give me some good advise?
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)
tsm...@gmail.com
> At the moment there seem to be three choices (1) Jotun self polishing
> paint in various grades depending on boat speed; (2) Chugoku self
> polishing, again in different grades and (3) a copper and epoxy mix
> that used to be called "CopperBot" but I now believe has a different
> name, that is supposed to last ten years or more.
>
> Now, to cut to the chase. Does anybody have actual experience with
> current anti fouling paints in tropical waters?
I put CopperBot on my boat in 2001 and then sanded it down and put
Devoe ABC on over it in 2002. Copperbot makes a nice barrier coat.
The good news was that it would stand up to serious sanding the bad
news was that it needed it all the time. Unless you dive the boat
weekly I wouldn't go that route. Pretty much all the serious tropical
cruisers I know use ablatives and most get 18-24 months out of a multi-
coat application. I've used a couple of different Devoe products have
done a few seasons with Interlux. I'm currently into my second season
with Micron Extra. IME, the ablative copper paints work very well for
3-4 months and then get dramatically less effective. However, they
are really easy to clean. By the end of two seasons you'll typically
be down to almost no paint and any that's left will have very little
anti-fouling ability... The Interlux products are more expensive than
the Devoe stuff that I was getting in New Zealand but not notably
better.
-- Tom.
Bruce in Bangkok
>On Apr 13, 8:07 pm, Bruce in Bangkok <b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote:
>> At the moment there seem to be three choices (1) Jotun self polishing
>> paint in various grades depending on boat speed; (2) Chugoku self
>> polishing, again in different grades and (3) a copper and epoxy mix
>> that used to be called "CopperBot" but I now believe has a different
>> name, that is supposed to last ten years or more.
>>
>> Now, to cut to the chase. Does anybody have actual experience with
>> current anti fouling paints in tropical waters?
>
>I put CopperBot on my boat in 2001 and then sanded it down and put
>Devoe ABC on over it in 2002. Copperbot makes a nice barrier coat.
>The good news was that it would stand up to serious sanding the bad
>news was that it needed it all the time. Unless you dive the boat
>weekly I wouldn't go that route.
This is what I had suspected, although an article in Practical Boat
Owner alleged that one boat hadn't scrubbed the bottom in ten years.
I watched a video of the stuff being applied and it is literally just
epoxy and copper dust. They even tell you to keep stirring the can
while you are rolling it on. It is also a minimum of four coats --
sort of a modern day copper sheeting.
I couldn't see how it could be effective UNLESS you scrubbed it pretty
aggressively on a frequent basis.
At the moment I am leaning toward the Jotun as I have used Jotun
before and it did what they said it would and secondly, a mate who is
in Cochin,India at the moment is using it and swears that he doesn't
have any growth at all. He has been at anchor in Cochin for about two
months now so I'll see what his boat looks like when he gets back.
> Pretty much all the serious tropical
>cruisers I know use ablatives and most get 18-24 months out of a multi-
>coat application. I've used a couple of different Devoe products have
>done a few seasons with Interlux. I'm currently into my second season
>with Micron Extra. IME, the ablative copper paints work very well for
>3-4 months and then get dramatically less effective. However, they
>are really easy to clean. By the end of two seasons you'll typically
>be down to almost no paint and any that's left will have very little
>anti-fouling ability... The Interlux products are more expensive than
>the Devoe stuff that I was getting in New Zealand but not notably
>better.
>
>-- Tom.
Devoe isn't available here, as far as I know and I have had extremely
bad experience with International paint - some people say because
International mixes the paint that is sold here in Thailand.
dougk...@yahoo.com
bottom coating, about half said it worked pretty well... with regular
scrubbing. One of those was a pretty serious racer.
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
> Devoe isn't available here, as far as I know and I have had extremely
> bad experience with International paint - some people say because
> International mixes the paint that is sold here in Thailand.
>
Bummer, Devoe makes good products. The only advice I can give germane
to your location is, what kind of anti-fouling does the Thai military
and/or gov't vessels use? I bet it's TBT. And I bet that a guy who
knows the right people can get some too.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
Bruce in Bangkok
The last time I was in Penang and talked to a chemical shop there the
owner said "I'll keep selling TBT as long as the Malaysian Navy uses
TBT based anti fouling".. So you are probably correct. unfortunately I
can't buy it.
tsm...@gmail.com
> This is what I had suspected, although an article in Practical Boat
> Owner alleged that one boat hadn't scrubbed the bottom in ten years.
I think something else must be going on with that one. Certainly
there is a lot of copper in the paint. Burnished up my boat's bottom
looked like an old pot. But, copper isn't very good against the soft
stuff and once there is even a light coating of that other things
colonize on top of it... On a racing boat where the bottom is buffed
every weekend I'm sure Copperbot would be great but I can't see it
working if never scrubbed. It certainly didn't work for me.
> I watched a video of the stuff being applied and it is literally just
> epoxy and copper dust. They even tell you to keep stirring the can
> while you are rolling it on. It is also a minimum of four coats --
> sort of a modern day copper sheeting.
Yeah, I had it professionally applied by the local dealer and they did
all that. I've even seen a copper sheathing system advertised.
However, traditionally copper sheeting is to keep the worms out; I
don't think they've evolved to eat glass and plastic yet. Fresh
copper seems to be ok anti-fouling but it doesn't last.
> At the moment I am leaning toward the Jotun ..
I've head pretty good things about the Jotun ablatives, too, but
haven't used them myself.
-- Tom.
Jere Lull
> The last time I was in Penang and talked to a chemical shop there the
> owner said "I'll keep selling TBT as long as the Malaysian Navy uses
> TBT based anti fouling".. So you are probably correct. unfortunately I
> can't buy it.
You can't befriend someone in the Malaysian Navy?
--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
Bruce in Bangkok
I met Sonny Levi (google for more information) with the last boat he
built. It was a very 1930's looking motor sailer built in India and
copper sheathed. Sonny told me that the copper worked all right as
long as he got the bottom scrubbed once a month. I watched them clean
the bottom one time and they were using those metal pot cleaners that
look like a handful of lathe turnings and were really going at the
bottom.
Bruce in Bangkok
>On 2008-04-14 08:30:38 -0400, Bruce in Bangkok <b*paige*125@g*mail.com> said:
>
>> The last time I was in Penang and talked to a chemical shop there the
>> owner said "I'll keep selling TBT as long as the Malaysian Navy uses
>> TBT based anti fouling".. So you are probably correct. unfortunately I
>> can't buy it.
>
>You can't befriend someone in the Malaysian Navy?
I probably could if I spent some time in Lamout, the west coast naval
base. Interestingly I met a chap this morning that had a mate who was
in the boat painting business who had some detailed information.
The problems with TBT are, other then it is banned in anti fouling
paints, by international treaty, it is a pretty potent poison, it
doesn't mix with all bottom paints and its reaction varies from paint
to paint.
My present thoughts are that I'll probably go with one of the modern
self polishing paints as I don't want to go through all the trials and
tribulations of painting the bottom only to discover that the paint
didn't get hard; or it all falls off.
I do have plans to mix enough paint to do an 8 ft. dinghy. Half with
TBT and half with copper based anti fouling paint. Just to see what
happens.
Roger Long
I set the flush fitting a bit too deep. I figgured that would be that cat's
pajamas but it slimes up and the long slime threads jamb the paddle wheel
just about as fast as bare fiberglass would. No barnacles grow on the ring
but the grow briskly on the bare plastic paddle wheel 1/16 inch away from
the copper.
If I had coppered the whole boat, I would expect to need to scrub it every
month even up here in Maine where fouling is light. I now paint the copper
ring just like the rest of the bottom.
--
Roger Long
Herodotus
I use Jotan and merely add between 5 to 10% TBT - usually 5%. I was
told not to use more than 10 percent as it will affect the drying and
adhesion of the antifouling. It works well for me. Of course some of
the problems people may have experienced may have been applying the
wrong anitfouling ove and existing layer. I know when I started using
Jotan in Malaysia instead of ABC-3, I had to sand back hard and apply
a Jotan primer coat. - But you and they would have thought of that
aspect.
cheers
Peter
Herodotus
Did you try Chulia Street?
Bruce in Bangkok
I'll let you in on a secret. Take the damned speed log transmitter
out, plug the hole and use the GPS. No more barnacles on the paddle
wheel. You do need some penlight batteries but that is easier then
jumping over the side in September to scrape the paddle wheel, or
having to pull the damned thing and sea water squirting all over the
electrics.
Heck, I used to sail from Muscungus bay up to S.W. Harbor with a
compass and one chart. Just head north out of Muscongus bay till you
can't see any land out the port side and turn left. Keep going 'till
you see one of those little white boats and just drift on by and
holler "Where am I?". You may get told, "You're out in a boat", but
most of the time they'll tell you where you are. :-)
Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
>Hi Bruce,
>Did you try Chulia Street?
>On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:30:38 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
><b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote:
>
>>The last time I was in Penang and talked to a chemical shop there the
>>owner said "I'll keep selling TBT as long as the Malaysian Navy uses
>>TBT based anti fouling".. So you are probably correct. unfortunately I
>>can't buy it.
Yup, that's the guy - known as the "Chemical man".
Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
>Greetings Bruce,
>I use Jotan and merely add between 5 to 10% TBT - usually 5%. I was
>told not to use more than 10 percent as it will affect the drying and
>adhesion of the antifouling. It works well for me. Of course some of
>the problems people may have experienced may have been applying the
>wrong anitfouling ove and existing layer. I know when I started using
>Jotan in Malaysia instead of ABC-3, I had to sand back hard and apply
>a Jotan primer coat. - But you and they would have thought of that
>aspect.
>
>cheers
>Peter
I've been leaning that way. Met a fella today who's mate painted boats
for some years and he makes about the same recommendation you do.
I'm beginning to think that the people that had problems were using
too much TBT as much as 10% by volume, or more.
the more research I do the lower down the scale the TBT addition seems
to be. Right now I'm getting recommendations between 3 - 5 % and not
more.
I must have the remnants of 15 years of anti fouling on the bottom so
this time I';m going to scrape it all off, prime and a tie coat and a
couple of coats of bottom paint. Probably be 5 knots faster :-)
Herodotus
<b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:04:13 +1000, Herodotus <peter....@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Hi Bruce,
>>Did you try Chulia Street?
>>On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:30:38 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
>><b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The last time I was in Penang and talked to a chemical shop there the
>>>owner said "I'll keep selling TBT as long as the Malaysian Navy uses
>>>TBT based anti fouling".. So you are probably correct. unfortunately I
>>>can't buy it.
>
>Yup, that's the guy - known as the "Chemical man".
>
>Bruce-in-Bangkok
>(correct email address for reply)
Yes, Mr Ong of Langtrau Traders.
Now in his 80's and speaking perfect Oxford English (though I wouldn't
expect that you as an American would appreciate well spoken English),
he has had a very interesting life. His father died when he was 9
leaving his mother to scrape a living for the family unassisted. When
the Japanese occupied Malaya, they set up a medical school at Melaka
and he was chosen to attend. After his 3rd year the British returned
and the school was closed down, thus terminating his medical studies.
Returning to Penang his Doctor friends suggested that, as drugs and
medical supplies were hard to get hold of, he should think of buying
them in Singapore on the black market and smuggling them back to
Penang (the best city in the universe where the most beautiful women
are just that - women) where they would buy them off him.
Subsequently he somehow obtained a military uniform and a weekly pass
(forged or otherwise acquired) and made the weekly round trip by
train. At the time Singapore was a military area and was no go to just
anybody. He went on to found the largest chemical company in Malaysia
and when he reached his 60's retired, handed it over to his sons and
started selling all kinds of chemical supplies from that shop house.
He is an easy person to make any excuse to sit and have a cup of tea
with and just ask questions. The prices of his TBT and other useful
boaties' chemicals is ridiculously low.
I was planning to leave Curacao today bound for Panama and have only
just found out that there is at least an 8 week delay for transiting
the canal. Only 3 yachts are allowed transit each way on 3 days per
week. This delay means that I would have to go hell for leather to
reach your end of the world before the cyclone season starts in
November - and with La Nina.... I am thinking of heading home for a
few months. Damn!!
Asalaam
Peter
Edgar
"Bruce in Bangkok" <b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote in message
news:49d9041k2g0hhfshm...@4ax.com...
> I must have the remnants of 15 years of anti fouling on the bottom so
> this time I';m going to scrape it all off, prime and a tie coat and a
> couple of coats of bottom paint. Probably be 5 knots faster :-)
You make it sound simple but I have taken all the a/f off a 34' boat and it
is not an experience I ever plan to repeat.
I used a paint remover that was guaranteed not to harm fibreglass and it did
not , but this meant it was not all that brilliant at dissolving paint
either.
It left behind some thin residues which I washed off with the thinners
appropriate to the a/f. We used a lot of it and although the job was done in
the open air we were seriously affected by the fumes.
Get a (really) experienced professional firm to sand blast it off in
controlled conditions. .
Roger Long
> compass and one chart.
Me too. Clock and compass over much more of Maine than that. Not even a
depth sounder.
I wouldn't bother putting a speedometer in a boat at this point, but, since
it is there, it's a nice source of amusement for guests and helps better
with sail trim than the GPS. The other useful thing it does is give a
handle on current when there are no pot buoys visible.
Also, if the GPS should go out, my speed guesstimating skills will have been
seriously degraded after these years of navigating with it. My unit has a
distance function which would be helpful if Homeland Security suddenly shuts
down the GPS system some day.
--
Roger Long
Wayne.B
wrote:
>I was planning to leave Curacao today bound for Panama and have only
>just found out that there is at least an 8 week delay for transiting
>the canal.
I'm told that if you use a canal agent the delay can sometimes be
reduced to days. Apparently they reserve slots in advance ($$$). I
know of several trawlers that have gone through recently with minimal
delays.
Wayne.B
<str...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>if the GPS should go out
There is really no excuse for not carrying a spare hand held or two
and a few extra batteries. I use them in the dinghy at times.
Herodotus
So I've heard but both from two agents and 7 yachts who reported back,
this is definitely not happening for yachts. One agent said that
people were even trucking their boats across by road which is
reported to be not a good one. This stopped when the triler broke on
one such trip and the yacht fell off.
Roger Long
>
> There is really no excuse for not carrying a spare hand held or two
> and a few extra batteries. I use them in the dinghy at times.
>
I do but that's not what I was talking about. Someday, the airforce is
going to detect an unidentifiable radar target and turn the whole system off
just in case it is a poor mans GPS guided missile. This is one reason why
the Russians have their own system and the European Union wants to set up a
third. Like the Internet, GPS was originally supposed to be just one of the
toys the taxpayers buy the Pentagon they can turn it off any time they want.
There are also solar flares and other potential disruptions.
--
Roger Long
Roger Long
> There was a time when turning the system off might have been an option,
> but
> theses days GPS is used for too many other things, both public and
> private. They
> really don't have the option any longer.
>
> I don't think it's any more likely then the government shutting down the
> Northeast electrical grid to try and thwart a terrorist attack.
>
Proably right but being independent is part of what sailing and cruising is
all about. Is beign tied into a satellite system and dependent on it
consistent with that? I appreciate the convienience of GPS but I like the
idea of being able to get around without it.
I would also note that aircraft are still required to be able to navigate if
the GPS system goes down. Maybe the FAA knows something that we don't:)
Ten years ago, would you have believed it if any told you that the TSA
foolishness about nail clippers and shampoo would ever come to pass?
--
Roger Long
Wayne.B
<str...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>I do but that's not what I was talking about. Someday, the airforce is
>going to detect an unidentifiable radar target and turn the whole system off
>just in case it is a poor mans GPS guided missile.
Supposedly there is some new invention called a "sex tent" or some
such which uses heavenly bodies to determine position without
satellites or radio waves. What will they think of next ?
:-)
Roger Long
In the days when those were used, some sort of speed determining device was
considered an essential adjunct. It's only practical to get a position a
couple times a day on a small vessel and there are days when you can't get a
position on any heavenly bodies at all. Course and speed are then the
navigational inputs. If a sextant is a back up for GPS than a knotlog has a
place on a vessel as well.
--
Roger Long
Capt. JG
news:dbca04p188pcnc25s...@4ax.com...
Heh. And, for communication, we have sat phones and saxophones, and some
people even have phone sex.
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com
Herodotus
>There was a time when turning the system off might have been an option, but
>theses days GPS is used for too many other things, both public and private. They
>really don't have the option any longer.
>
>I don't think it's any more likely then the government shutting down the
>Northeast electrical grid to try and thwart a terrorist attack.
>
Regardless of whether or not "they" turn of the GPS system, there is
the ever present possibility of receiving a direct hit from lightning
as I have, taking out virtually all my instruments, SSB radio and LCD
monitor with the exception, strangely enough of the laptops.
Electrmagnetic induction can even fry the spare GPS unit in its box
unless of course you have sufficient warning and put all in the ss
oven which would act as a a Fraday cage.
This is why I carry and keep in good order my trusty old sextant.
Peter
Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
One of the great advantages of living in 3rd third world nation is we
have people who are virtually slaves. Paid, but very cheaply paid. And
the best part of it is that any wage that they will work for me is at
least double what they would be working for if they were home.
As an example I can hire a Thai girl to wash my boat for ten US dollar
a day, and she is happy to get it because if she works on a local
construction crew she will be making $5.00. If I get illegal Burmese
workers cut those numbers at least in half.
So we will scrape the paint off the bottom carefully down to the
gelcoat or epoxy and then sand, prime, tie coat and anti foul.
Bruce in Bangkok
It is not safe, I'm told, to operate the dinghy when one is too drunk
to find the way back to the boat without a GPS :-)
Bruce in Bangkok
That is why you want about a 200 foot anchor rode. Let it all out and
you'll be anchored before you run aground........
Bruce in Bangkok
If you are going to go for the sextant then no cheating with the
electronic knot log. You'll have to get one of those reels and a sand
glass for speed.
And a lead line along with some tallow to "arm" it with.
Damn, life is getting complicated.
Capt. JG
news:kcvb04906hsr4ih3e...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:55:30 +1000, Herodotus <peter....@gmail.com>
> accidentally sitting on it or dropping it. Every method of navigation
> is vulnerable in mulitiple ways. Don't overlook plain old user error,
> either. That's a very common failure for most navigation methods.
>
> If you are relying on any single form of navigation, you are at
> greater risk.
Correct... absolutely. Thus, we shouldn't rely on one method of navigation.
Multiple methods and backups are the way to go. Bring the sextant and 1/2
dozen GPS - they're cheap.
Capt. JG
news:61ab04t9iu4bi7n9n...@4ax.com...
If you can find the dinghy, you're good to go. LOL
Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
The dinghy is easy to find - just keep walking until you fall over it.
The boat is another matter 'cus all those anchor lights are the same
color...
Capt. JG
We've had this same ongoing problem in the BVIs after many too many. Finally
we got smart and left one of thos hanging lights in the cockpit. That worked
for a couple of nights until all of our drunken neighbors thought it was
such a good idea. LOL
Jere Lull
> We've had this same ongoing problem in the BVIs
<pet peeve>
British Virgin Islands is already plural, so BVI is the correct acronym.
</pet peeve>
Note: I was corrected by a BVIslander the one and only time I did the
same thing.
--
Jere Lull
Xan-�-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
Capt. JG
news:2008041719132743658-jerelull@maccom...
Heh... well, actually I was talking about my BVDs.
Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
An Australian mate of mine recently discovered these flexible strips
of LED's so he bought a blue one and wrapped it around the back stay.
Says it is a world of help in finding his boat at night.
Herodotus
<b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote:
>An Australian mate of mine recently discovered these flexible strips
>of LED's so he bought a blue one and wrapped it around the back stay.
>Says it is a world of help in finding his boat at night.
>
>
>Bruce-in-Bangkok
>(correct email address for reply)
Hi Bruce,
I have a ten foot length of the white diodes which I hang from the
backstay to the topping lift when going ashore at night.
Beats trying to find which of those masthead ligts is yours.
cheers
Peter
Bil
> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:00:44 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
> <b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:04:13 +1000, Herodotus <peter....@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Hi Bruce,
> >>Did you try Chulia Street?
> >>On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:30:38 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
> >><b*paige*125@g*mail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>The last time I was in Penang and talked to a chemical shop there the
> >>>owner said "I'll keep selling TBT as long as the Malaysian Navy uses
> >>>TBT based anti fouling".. So you are probably correct. unfortunately I
> >>>can't buy it.
> >
> >Yup, that's the guy - known as the "Chemical man".
> >Bruce-in-Bangkok
> >(correct email address for reply)
>
>
> Now in his 80's and speaking perfect Oxford English (though I wouldn't
> expect that you as an American would appreciate well spoken English),
> he has had a very interesting life. His father died when he was 9
> leaving his mother to scrape a living for the family unassisted. When
> the Japanese occupied Malaya, they set up a medical school at Melaka
> and he was chosen to attend. After his 3rd year the British returned
> and the school was closed down, thus terminating his medical studies.
> Returning to Penang his Doctor friends suggested that, as drugs and
> medical supplies were hard to get hold of, he should think of buying
> them in Singapore on the black market and smuggling them back to
> Penang (the best city in the universe where the most beautiful women
> are just that - women) where they would buy them off him.
>
> Subsequently he somehow obtained a military uniform and a weekly pass
> (forged or otherwise acquired) and made the weekly round trip by
> train. At the time Singapore was a military area and was no go to just
> anybody. He went on to found the largest chemical company in Malaysia
> and when he reached his 60's retired, handed it over to his sons and
> started selling all kinds of chemical supplies from that shop house.
>
> He is an easy person to make any excuse to sit and have a cup of tea
> with and just ask questions. The prices of his TBT and other useful
> boaties' chemicals is ridiculously low.
Looks like Mr Ong, now 91 years old, will have to move his Liangtraco business to a new address in Penang.
See: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/tourism-driving-out-old-businesses-in-lebuh-chulia
Bil
brucein...@invalid.com
wrote:
in that area and has been renting/leasing it out for generations and
now there is some big money that is trying to make a ton of money by
building a whole neighborhood the rent for which will be much, much
higher.
Re Mr. Ong, the first time I went to find him I couldn't locate the
shop and stopped in at another that seemed to be in about the same
area as his shop was supposed to be. the people there pointed out his
shop on the other side of the road and when I was talking to him I
mentioned that and I got the impression that he owned, or his family
owned, both places and I suspect that Mr. Ong has been making a very
nice piece of change out of the shops all these years.
There used to be a lot of old geezers like him in Singapore. Sit out
front on a broken down chair wearing a singlet, shorts and sandals.
Drive home in a Mercedes 500 :-)
--
Cheers,
Bruce in Bangkok