PDQ 39' sailing catamaran FOR SALE
David
Too many upgrades in 2008/2009 to list here. Nice boat set up for
Caribbean cruising and since we now own two boats we are highly
motivated to sell.
David Kane
PDQ39cat@ gmail.com
http://www.PDQ36.blogspot.com
Larry
news:5405514c-e166-4f97...@y34g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
A Hundred Seventy Five Thousand Dollars??!
You need to look outside! The marine industry has collapsed!
A Hundred Seventy Five THOUSAND Dollars!
.....for an outboard-powered boat.....
Whoda thunk it?....
--
-----
Larry
If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?
Bruce In Bangkok
>David <dbk...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:5405514c-e166-4f97...@y34g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Check out this PDQ 39' sailing catamaran FOR SALE at
>> http://www.PDQ36.blogspot.com
>>
>> Too many upgrades in 2008/2009 to list here. Nice boat set up for
>> Caribbean cruising and since we now own two boats we are highly
>> motivated to sell.
>>
>> David Kane
>> PDQ39cat@ gmail.com
>> http://www.PDQ36.blogspot.com
>>
>
>A Hundred Seventy Five Thousand Dollars??!
>
>You need to look outside! The marine industry has collapsed!
>
>A Hundred Seventy Five THOUSAND Dollars!
>
>.....for an outboard-powered boat.....
>
>Whoda thunk it?....
Don't complain, the guy is trying.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Larry
news:do4j45dh4g7k3n8oo...@4ax.com:
> Don't complain, the guy is trying.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bruce
> (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
>
>
He's gotta be a broker. Noone is that stupid.
Bruce In Bangkok
>Bruce In Bangkok <decypher...@sig.line> wrote in
>news:do4j45dh4g7k3n8oo...@4ax.com:
>
>> Don't complain, the guy is trying.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Bruce
>> (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
>>
>>
>
>He's gotta be a broker. Noone is that stupid.
A guy down the dock died and his girl friend was left with the boat.
She (actually she was a bit loony) got the idea in her head that the
boat, a 35 year old Amil (the first design) was worth a lot of money.
She tried to list it with an agent, the agent wouldn't list it - she
wanted too much money - she finally hung a sign on the bow.
About 8 months after the guy died she sold the boat for 121,000
dollars - Cash. Two guys from Pattaya came by, saw the boat, asked the
price, went to the ATM and got a holding price, Came back with the
cash a few days later. The girl got a guy to sail the boat to Langkawi
(duty & tax free) where the deal was done and she came back laughing.
You never know :-)
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Larry
> You never know :-)
>
One of my former neighbors came here on probation after being convicted for
working for a drug cartel the Feds finally broke up. He never touched
drugs, never sold/used/way too smart.
No, what he did was to transport MONEY from the USA to various South
American countries, the profits from the drug sales. They had a house in a
nice residential community, gated, nice pool and all, that was literally
full of money! He told me they had trouble getting the garage door to
close at times when more money was coming into the house than the runners
like him could transport out! There was even a nice family living in the
house, or the appearance of a family living in the house, and only a couple
of people, like him, were allowed to go to/from the house, including the
"father" and "mother" of the family, who were also runners. You'd never
know what went on there. I was fascinated listening to it.
I can understand where paying $US200K for a 20K boat would be of no
consequence to these people at all. They regularly used a boat a couple of
times, a very expensive boat, then simply sunk it offshore to dry up the
trail of the DEA tracking it, no matter the cost. It's all part of the
cost of doing business........
I bet her boat is running or was running something like this.....The use of
high speed craft for drugs is only in the movies. They find drugs here in
the damnest looking boats you ever saw, totally out of character....slow,
inconspicuous boats are all fine....
J...@nospam.com
Jeff
> David <dbk...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:5405514c-e166-4f97...@y34g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Check out this PDQ 39' sailing catamaran FOR SALE at
>> http://www.PDQ36.blogspot.com
>>
>> Too many upgrades in 2008/2009 to list here. Nice boat set up for
>> Caribbean cruising and since we now own two boats we are highly
>> motivated to sell.
>>
>> David Kane
>> PDQ39cat@ gmail.com
>> http://www.PDQ36.blogspot.com
>>
>
> A Hundred Seventy Five Thousand Dollars??!
>
> You need to look outside! The marine industry has collapsed!
>
> A Hundred Seventy Five THOUSAND Dollars!
>
> .....for an outboard-powered boat.....
>
> Whoda thunk it?....
>
>
36 a few years ago and there simply aren't any high quality cats under
40' on the market now. And the over 40' cats are going for $400k+ new,
so options are limited. Although the outboard powered PDQs usually go
for a bit less, the 3 foot extensions are worth (assuming you like them)
a premium. So asking $175K is certainly not out of range.
Wilbur Hubbard
news:h2fmj9$s2v$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Yes, those things appeal a lot to the 'trawler' crowd. But, outboards don't
get it for the trawler crowd. Like you they'd rather have twin diesels so
they can do more than their fair share of wrecking the environment.
Wilbur Hubbard
Wayne.B
<wilbur...@thefarm.invallid> wrote:
>Yes, those things appeal a lot to the 'trawler' crowd. But, outboards don't
>get it for the trawler crowd. Like you they'd rather have twin diesels so
>they can do more than their fair share of wrecking the environment.
You can say what you want about diesels but outboards absolutely do
not have the fuel range, durability or alternator capacity for long
range cruising.
sa...@dog.com
It's a SAILBOAT with auxhilary engines, Wayne. It has virtually
unlimited cruising range.
Capt. JG
news:ekin45hc1anjhr7s5...@4ax.com...
True. She's Sec. of State not President. :)
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
She does seem to get around!
Capt. JG
news:vaqn451qc4d8t96tk...@4ax.com...
A Beach Boys song just popped into my head!
Wayne.B
>>You can say what you want about diesels but outboards absolutely do
>>not have the fuel range, durability or alternator capacity for long
>>range cruising.
>
>It's a SAILBOAT with auxhilary engines, Wayne. It has virtually
>unlimited cruising range.
Yes, that's theoretically true. I've owned a lot of sailboats
however, and chartered a few others. They all needed to charge their
batteries, motor in dead flat calms, motor sail in light wind, and get
in and out of harbors against adverse winds. A typical outboard motor
will do that for 6 to 12 hours before running out of fuel, and maybe
500 to 1,000 hours before needing major repairs. I've had some
experience with that also. Then there's the additional risk of
carrying gasoline aboard, the lack of any serious battery charging
capability, and the lower unit pulling out of the water on wave tops.
On the plus side, outboards are usually easier to hand start when the
batteries die, and are easier/cheaper to replace at end of life.
No thanks, not my choice for long range cruising. And yes, I'm quite
familiar with the long history of people who have cruised with no
power at all. This is the 21st century however.
sa...@dog.com
The underlying issue may be that you were a powerboater at heart all
along. Sailboats just maybe aren't your cup of tea, despite your time
sailing. It requires a different mindset. I prefer sailing precisely
because it doesn't involve microwave ovens, widescreen TV, and a
constant rumble to feed them and get where I'm going. If I wanted the
conveniences of home, that's where I'd stay. What harbor took you 12
hours to motor out of? I'd like to know so I can avoid it!
Motoring for my boat with an outboard consumes 1/2 gallon an hour at
WOT. I don't recall the last time I ran at WOT. Possibly once or twice
for short periods since I've owned this boat. I have the 9.9 Yamaha
4-stroke with the low gearing and huge prop, so in mild conditions,
1/4 throttle gets me to hull speed. Motorsailing usually means the
outboard running at idle, which means maybe 70 miles to the gallon. I
have a capacity of 11 gallons. All that said, I don't generally run
the motor except to get in and out of restricted spaces. My range is
limited by how much potable water and food I can reasonably carry, not
how much fuel.
I have the correct long travel bracket, installed properly, and the XL
shaft. I have very little trouble with the prop coming out, regardless
of conditions, and I'm decidedly not a fair weather only sailor. I've
seen countless boats where it would be a problem even in calm waters
because they simply didn't plan the install very well.
I know none of this will convince you of anything, but it does
demonstrate that what you said is a personal opinion based on your own
experience and techniques, and not facts that necessarily apply to
anyone else. Now we have two differing opinions, which makes this a
discussion!
Bruce In Bangkok
<waynebatr...@hothail.com> wrote:
And quite a few of those pure sailors install and engine after they
have been sailing a while.
It is lone thing to "rough it" for a long week end or a two week
vacation but give some thought to setting off around the world where
you will be living on your boat for the next 3 or 4 years.
A cold beer IS nice to have.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
I think that the determining factor is "what kind" of cruising are you
going to do. Coast wise, or "local area" (and I'm using that term to
cover all areas where you know what the weather is going to be, or is
likely to be) is one ball game but setting off for foreign lands can
another.
I'm not arguing one over the other but particularly near the equator
it is quite possible that you will have to motor in order to get
there.
As a couple of examples, I have never had any appreciable wind coming
up the Malacca Straits. Motored all the way, every time. Had a mate
motored nearly a week coming back from India, a year ago. Talk to a
few people who have been up the Red Sea. Most will tell you that they
wish they had a bigger motor.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
cavelamb
>
> The underlying issue may be that you were a powerboater at heart all
> along. Sailboats just maybe aren't your cup of tea, despite your time
> sailing. It requires a different mindset. I prefer sailing precisely
> because it doesn't involve microwave ovens, widescreen TV, and a
> constant rumble to feed them and get where I'm going. If I wanted the
> conveniences of home, that's where I'd stay. What harbor took you 12
> hours to motor out of? I'd like to know so I can avoid it!
>
> Motoring for my boat with an outboard consumes 1/2 gallon an hour at
> WOT. I don't recall the last time I ran at WOT. Possibly once or twice
> for short periods since I've owned this boat. I have the 9.9 Yamaha
> 4-stroke with the low gearing and huge prop, so in mild conditions,
> 1/4 throttle gets me to hull speed. Motorsailing usually means the
> outboard running at idle, which means maybe 70 miles to the gallon. I
> have a capacity of 11 gallons. All that said, I don't generally run
> the motor except to get in and out of restricted spaces. My range is
> limited by how much potable water and food I can reasonably carry, not
> how much fuel.
>
Salty, I run that same motor.
What size prop are you running?
Mine is 9-3/4x6-1/2, but it seems to me to be too small and fast.
cavelamb
> options for mine, but all were 11-3/4" with different pitches. I think
> mine is either 9-1/2 or 11 pitch. The motor has different gearing from
> the regular 9.9 hp, too. Mine has 13:38 gears, while the regular 9.9
> 4-stroke has 13:27 gears The prop on mine looks like it belongs on a
> 60 hp motor.
>
I can't find anything in the documentation that tells the gear ratio.
I can't see .11 difference in gearing would make a huge amount of difference.
I suspect it's all in the prop.
If I could find an 11-3/4" low pitch prop that would fit it, I'd run it and
see what happens. It the engine makes 5k RPM, it would be a keeper!
Heck, I bet the boat would do wheelies!
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
Those are gear ratios. 13 to 38 is significantly lower than 13 to 27,
and it makes a huge difference. Boiled down, those ratios are 1:2.92
vs 1:2.08
The High Thrust motor has a different lower leg to accomodate the big
prop. You may not have room for it.
What is the exact model number of your motor?
Bruce In Bangkok
>I personally wouldn't choose to sail worldwide in my present boat. I
>suppose it could be done, but not by me. People have circumavigated in
>less capable boats. As I pointed out, for me the limiting factors for
>long distance cruising would have to do more with the ability to carry
>enough water and food, not the choice of auxilary propulsion. I know
>of cruisers who have removed the engine rather than replace it when
>the time came. Made more capacity for transporting more important
>things.
True. In fact I am not at all sure how the Pardys were able to pack
enough grub and water into their little 28 ft. boat. I've been aboard
a Lyle Hess Bristol Channel Cutter, essentially the same boat and
there isn't much storage space. I think that they probably eat a lot
of crackers and cheese and never take a bath in fresh water.
And these are deep keel boats. When you take the modern canoe shaped
boats with the bolt on keel I don't know where you'd put anything.
This is probably one of the main reasons why you now see so many 40
foot plus cruising boats - storage space.
Frankly, I don't reckon that removing the engine, just to have a pure
sailing boat, is a smart move. There are too many places where you
really do need an engine. Even in an anchorage. And of course, if you
ever plan on going into a marina - forget it without an engine. and
for all people talk about anchoring out sometimes it is nearly
impossible. Singapore, for example, has only one small boat anchorage
and I can guarantee that after one night you will leave it.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Gordon
Here in Sequim Wa, we have a motorless sailboat delivering organic
veggies to the Seattle market. They've gutted the interior for cargo
space and use a sweeps to go in and out of the marina.
Gotta be green you know!
Gordon
cavelamb
>
> True. In fact I am not at all sure how the Pardys were able to pack
> enough grub and water into their little 28 ft. boat. I've been aboard
> a Lyle Hess Bristol Channel Cutter, essentially the same boat and
> there isn't much storage space. I think that they probably eat a lot
> of crackers and cheese and never take a bath in fresh water.
>
> And these are deep keel boats. When you take the modern canoe shaped
> boats with the bolt on keel I don't know where you'd put anything.
>
> This is probably one of the main reasons why you now see so many 40
> foot plus cruising boats - storage space.
>
> Frankly, I don't reckon that removing the engine, just to have a pure
> sailing boat, is a smart move. There are too many places where you
> really do need an engine. Even in an anchorage. And of course, if you
> ever plan on going into a marina - forget it without an engine. and
> for all people talk about anchoring out sometimes it is nearly
> impossible. Singapore, for example, has only one small boat anchorage
> and I can guarantee that after one night you will leave it.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bruce
> (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
My dear Dorothy has studied Lynn's books and taken her to heart.
Remember, please, that their first boat SERAFFYN was only 24 feet 7.
We learn what we can learn from those who proceed us.
For instance nav and anchor lights.
D has decided we will use oil lights - modified the way Lynn suggests.
A part of a cup of oil per night.
No load on the battery.
And a charming ambiance.
We have the stock electric lights and I'll eventually replace the buulbs with
LEDs. But the oil lamps are a definite keeper.
And the fold-up bath tub from SERAFFYN(!).
(They do stay clean, and they do eat well)
And a lot of the other suggestions they have offered.
(Like Larry's dining table)
Bruce, I agree with you about going engine-less.
But it I have to have a 40 footer and a diesel plant before I can wander off
I'll never have a chance to go.
So, 5600 pounds displacement - AND an outboard.
Richard
Not just the Spanish Main luv,
the entire ocean, the entire wo'ld.
Wherever we want to go we'll go.
Thats what a ship is you know.
Its not just a keel and a hull and a deck & sails,
that's what a ship needs,
but what a ship is... is freedom.
cavelamb
>
> Those are gear ratios. 13 to 38 is significantly lower than 13 to 27,
> and it makes a huge difference. Boiled down, those ratios are 1:2.92
> vs 1:2.08
>
> The High Thrust motor has a different lower leg to accomodate the big
> prop. You may not have room for it.
>
> What is the exact model number of your motor?
>
Yeah, room for the prop might make a difference (sheepish grin).
Mine is an F9.9 ELRX(B?)
cavelamb
>
> Here in Sequim Wa, we have a motorless sailboat delivering organic
> veggies to the Seattle market. They've gutted the interior for cargo
> space and use a sweeps to go in and out of the marina.
> Gotta be green you know!
> Gordon
How green is your groin???
You could pull a hernia sweeping in something like that!
Capt. JG
news:XO-dnRQ-RZpCAdDX...@earthlink.com...
Well, I have a 30' Sabre, which is certainly offshore capable, but it seems
kind of small to me for any extended cruising. It would certainly be limited
by storage, and at least on the left coast, I'd want (and am glad) I have a
reliable inboard. Even in the bay, an outboard can be nearly unusable if
there's decent chop, which is typical.
Bruce In Bangkok
Much snipped
> Here in Sequim Wa, we have a motorless sailboat delivering organic
>veggies to the Seattle market. They've gutted the interior for cargo
>space and use a sweeps to go in and out of the marina.
> Gotta be green you know!
> Gordon
Some years ago I was showing some commissioning engineers how the
"sailing boats did it" at a harbor in central Java. We watched a 50
ft. sloop come in. A typical Indonesian working boat, sail made from a
blue and white striped tarp, loaded with rattan till the deck was
nearly awash.
To get to the "small boat" anchorage the boat had to enter the harbor,
sail nearly all the way across the harbor and then turn and moor in a
small river.
There wasn't much wind that day and the boats would come in down wind,
turn a bit and reach across the harbor, losing wind all the way. About
the time they got to the creek a sailor would leap over the side and
swim frantically ashore. The sail would come down and the sailor who
had swum ashore with a rope would take a couple of turns around a tree
to snub the boat, the boat would hit the end of the rope and turn into
the creek and drift to a stop. Sort of made you understand that there
was quite a bit to knowing how to handle a boat :-)
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
>"cavelamb" <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
I think I posted a URL for a Hungarian sailing a 27 ft. boat around
the world.
BUT, I had a peep at the boat after he had arrived here from
Australia, i.e., had eaten a bunch of his supplies. Looking into the
cubby from the cockpit there was just enough room to slide in and
sleep. The rest of the time he must have spent in the cockpit as there
was no room below.
It probably highlights that the worst problem in sailing a small boat
isn't seaworthiness it is storage space.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
You don't need a 40 footer. Just get in and go with what you got.
The motor is damned nice to have sometimes though :-)
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
cavelamb
Copy that!
Will do!
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
That's a long shaft, but unfortunately not the High Thrust model. It
would really be worth it to investigate trading it in for the one
specifically designed to push sailboats efficiently and quietly.
Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
A friend of mine has a philosophy "Just go!" and sails off whenever he
gets the urge. Granted he carries out fairly continuous maintenance on
the boat but doesn't let the fact that "he's got one more project to
do" keep him in port. Granted he sometimes sails with second hand
sails, his batteries aren't always new, and he usually has to crank
the anchor in by hand, but he goes. and he always get's there and
back.
He did a six month trip to India last year and is talking about a trip
to Sarawak this season.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Wayne.B
>The underlying issue may be that you were a powerboater at heart all
>along. Sailboats just maybe aren't your cup of tea, despite your time
>sailing. It requires a different mindset. I prefer sailing precisely
>because it doesn't involve microwave ovens, widescreen TV, and a
>constant rumble to feed them and get where I'm going. If I wanted the
>conveniences of home, that's where I'd stay. What harbor took you 12
>hours to motor out of? I'd like to know so I can avoid it!
Remember, my statement was that outboards are unsuited to **long range
cruising**, however we want to define that. We're not talking about
week end cruising, or one or two weeks on Long Island Sound with a
fuel dock every 5 to 10 miles.
You and Wilbur may be the only people I have ever heard of who were
happy with their outboards. Even with inboard diesels most of the
cruising sailors that we see in the Bahamas are carrying extra fuel on
deck in jerry jugs.
sa...@dog.com
I already explained that my range is far more than your absurd and
self serving "estimates", Wayne. You very likely stop at a fuel dock
more often than I do.
Wayne.B
>I already explained that my range is far more than your absurd and
>self serving "estimates", Wayne. You very likely stop at a fuel dock
>more often than I do.
Actually we have a fuel range under power of close to 1,000 nautical
miles, not bad for a 70,000 pound boat with a lot of amenities.
Typically we don't stop at fuel docks at all except for dinghy gas.
Coming north from Florida to Connecticut we'll stop once for fuel. We
could have done this entire Abacos trip from western Florida and back
on on fill up but I decided to add an extra 200 galons at Green Turtle
Cay since their prices were reasonable and I wanted to increase my
reserves.
You may think you're a long range cruiser but I (politely) beg to
differ. We've seen many hundreds of cruising sailboats in the last
month and I can't think of any with outboards. People just don't do
it and there are good reasons.
Lew Hodgett
> We've seen many hundreds of cruising sailboats in the last
> month and I can't think of any with outboards. People just don't do
> it and there are good reasons.
Haven't been following this thread in any detail but the above caught
my attention.
Outboard engines?
After dinghy power and maybe a margarita mixer, what are they good for
other than to start a fire if you are careless?
Lew
Bruce In Bangkok
<waynebatr...@hothail.com> wrote:
There were a couple of long range boats that arrived here using
outboards. One from Hungary and another from Italy. Both boats were
small enough that inboard engines had ever been fitted. While both
boats obviously got here neither owner bragged on having an outboard.
The Italian boat, built by the individual who sailed it out here, is a
super light weight sloop - all sheathed foam and minimal ballast,
light weight aluminum mast, etc., probably is so constructed that an
inboard couldn't be fitted with adding a substantial amount of weight
and the last trip the owner took with the boat, before selling it, I
remember he was complaining about trying to go up wind with only the
motor.
I think it is very much a matter of "horses for courses".
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Capt. JG
news:unjt455a67at2asfq...@4ax.com...
While I tend to agree with the sentiment, I thing you could make the
argument for a cruising boat with an outboard. The significant caveat is
that if there's any pronounced chop, they tend to be ineffective. People
tend to use inboards for things like get-there issues in less than ideal
situations. The no-wind situation doesn't seem to me to be a big deal with
either type of engine.
I'd be interested to hear about Salty's experience on his recent trip, and
if he experienced any situations that made use of the outboard in less than
decent conditions.
I occasionally teach on Colgate 26s. They have an outboard, and it works
quite well, but the transom is low enough to moderate most of the prop out
of the water problems. I taught on a Folkboat a couple of times. It had an
engine well, but the club mounted the outboard on the transom. It worked,
but it was a beast, either interferring with the tiller or had the prop
coming out of the water. I taught quite a bit on a Cat. 27, with an inboard.
It has an even taller transom. I can't imagine having to reach down to deal
with an outboard on that boat.
sa...@dog.com
200 GALLONS for "reserve"!
I could do a circumnavigation with less than that.
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
>"Wayne.B" <waynebatr...@hothail.com> wrote in message
One place I used it was while transiting the race eastbound outside
Fishers Island. The race is a well known "feature" of the area. I was
under sail, but ran the motor at partial throttle just to keep my
speed up for steerage purposes as we rose and fell. It's not a place
to fool around. Wave height was, umm, clearly taller than the cabintop
with a fairly short period. Worked great, and no problem with the prop
coming out.
The entire trip was during one of those Northeast fronts that Wayne
mentioned. I got a lot of practice sailing in <100 foot visibility. I
sailed under the Jamestown bridge without ever seeing it.
Fortunately, most of the time was weekdays, so we didn't have nearly
as many small fishing boats zooming around with no lights or radio. It
was mostly commercial vessels and cruisers who all announced positions
and headings on a regular basis and blew appropriate signals. No
surprises. I did pass ELF (RACING YACHT, CIRCA 1888) in very dense fog
just outside the Mystic River. That was a treat. I was unfortunately
too busy concentrating on the buisness at hand to take a photo of her.
My outboard is on a Garelick mount that raises and lowers it. Pretty
much the entire leg is submerged. It's the XL 25" leg, so that puts
the prop pretty deep. When raised, the motor is still deep enough to
run in very calm conditions. I have to also tilt the motor up before
the prop clears the water.
I have no trouble reaching the throttle. The Yamaha is designed
specifically for sailboats and has a very long tiller with throttle,
shift, and kill switch where you need them. The shift lever is also
quite long, itself.
Jeff
Its a bit ironic that the one thread about my boat, and about a topic
I've pondered often finds me traveling with limited 'net access.
About 2/3 of the PDQ 36's were built with outboards, the rest with twin
18 HP diesels. (A few have only one engine - one has one diesel and one
electric outboard.) Because the outboard is forward of the rudders (and
slightly inboard) they do not come out of the water in rough weather.
Most of the PDQ's have done extensive cruising, mostly on the East Coast
and Caribbean. Many (about 30%?) have been to Bermuda, some are in
South America, and a few have crossed the Atlantic. While not quite
World Passagemakers, they are not weekend cruisers. As it turns out,
some of the most heavily traveled are the outboard (or "classic")
version simply because they are the oldest. The owner of the "39" had
intended to do a circumnavigation but decided to custom build a larger cat.
The question of diesel v outboard comes up often. The market is roughly
split, with a slight edge to the outboards. We went with the diesel
since we knew we would be doing a lot of river/ICW cruising. Some factors:
OB cons:
The outboards are loud when run at high RPM.
The OBs have limited charging - a genset is used by most "classic"
owners (often a small Honda).
The OB doesn't make hot water - a propane heater is employed. These
have been problematical.
The OBs push the boat well but suffer some in rough water, and the top
speed are about a knot less than the inboards. (The diesels can push
against a 35kt breeze with chop at 5 knots.)
Fuel usage (by the gallon) is about double the diesel.
OB pros:
Cheaper, even counting the added expense of genset and water heater.
Easy maintenance
Can be replaced in a few hours for modest expense.
Can be raised for better sailing performance.
Use less space.
In addition, the LRCs (diesel version) were built with skeg mounted
rudders (for beaching) rather than spade, plus have extra deck hardware
etc, and end up weighing about 800 pounds more.
Enough for now - the Steamship is in and I can leech off its wifi!
Jeff - aboard Loki, Vineyard Haven
Vic Smith
<waynebatr...@hothail.com> wrote:
Not quite. I follow this couple occasionally, and they have a boat
similar to the subject boat. Maybe the same without the stern
extensions.
They've been up and down the east coast, and spend a lot of time in
the Bahamas.
From the journal, it appears he loves to hoist sail, but motors fine
when the wind is down.
There are clear advantages of OB's on sailboats, and disadvantages.
I see it as a simple case of horses for courses.
--Vic
Vic Smith
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Not quite. I follow this couple occasionally, and they have a boat
>similar to the subject boat. Maybe the same without the stern
>extensions.
Wayne.B
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>There are clear advantages of OB's on sailboats, and disadvantages.
>I see it as a simple case of horses for courses.
Some say that there are exceptions to every rule, and some say that
the exceptions make the rule. When you look at the compromises that
have to be made when cruising with an outboard such as using a
portable generator for power and heating water with propane, it seems
clear to me that the exceptions make the rule. It can be done, but
it is second best.
Portable generators are an abomination and should be outlawed except
for emergencies. Even the quiet ones are too noisy.
Capt. JG
Here's a boat that gives you even more flexibility and range!
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/S9JMAL3vIiCwz8j0krzeHg?feat=directlink
Bruce In Bangkok
Don't be too sure of that. A friend motored for nearly a week coming
back from India.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Vic Smith
<waynebatr...@hothail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:01:44 -0500, Vic Smith
><thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>There are clear advantages of OB's on sailboats, and disadvantages.
>>I see it as a simple case of horses for courses.
>
>Some say that there are exceptions to every rule, and some say that
>the exceptions make the rule. When you look at the compromises that
>have to be made when cruising with an outboard such as using a
>portable generator for power and heating water with propane, it seems
>clear to me that the exceptions make the rule. It can be done, but
>it is second best.
>
I like the "horses of courses" cliche better. Maybe because I was a
horseplayer for years.
Besides, that "exception proves the rule" is a complete bastardization
of the original science saw, that said "The exception proves out the
rule." Meaning rules have no exceptions.
Except for general rules, rules of thumb, etc, etc, of course (-:
>Portable generators are an abomination and should be outlawed except
>for emergencies. Even the quiet ones are too noisy.
Don't know except from reading, but I've read that a very substantial
number of sailboats have a portable generator, regardless of
propulsion power.
The PDQ owners whose link I posted have a Kiss wind generator and I
think at least 150 watts of solar cells.
I recall him logging about running the gen one night at the wife's
insistence for an A/C respite from oppressive heat and no breeze,
but don't think he runs it often.
Anchorage noise is always argued about. I come down on the quiet
side. But you can't eliminate smaller boats that will run the small
generators. The generators are getting smaller and cheaper.
A better approach might be tackling the question of sound
suppression/redirection.
From some investigation it seems that muffling can be improved, but
there are still other mechanical noises that should be suppressed or
redirected.
Most of the insulating boxes made are for RV's and are permanent
installations.
I saw one post somewhere where a cruiser had dinghied to an offending
boat and found that the Honda generator was enclosed on 3 sides by
portable sound-deadening walls of foam. Unfortunately, the open side
was facing this guy's boat. He went around the boat and found the
other 3 sides were quiet.
I'm thinking an encompassing and collapsible sound shield that would
direct all noise upwards could be designed.
It would have to allow air flow for cooling and breathing, and be
fireproof of course. Not a big deal it seems, even if it had to
assist cooling air with a fan(s). Maybe cone-shaped, big end up.
See, if I could afford to buy a test generator, a few hundred dollars
of materials, and Billy Mays hadn't died, I might become a
millionaire.
Oh well. Anybody here who wants to do it, just go ahead.
My cut is 15% of the gross.
If it comes to market cheap enough (Billy would want it to be $19.95
with a pair of oven mitts thrown in at no additional charge) anchorage
peer pressure would force everybody to use one.
Another option the OB motor manufacturers haven't jumped on is higher
output alternators. Cowling size could be increased to accommodate
them. Then you have your genset running quietly, hanging on the
stern, and water cooled. The cruiser/anchorage market probably isn't
big enough to get them interested.
Anyway, my preference is economical and green. Solar and wind
charging adequate batteries. Not a floating fuel tank.
Until it gets real hot, maybe.
--Vic
Bruce In Bangkok
Hey, I hate to respond to my own posts but.....
Probably the best reason for not having an outboard on a cruising boat
is that outboards are soooooo easy to steal. Off to town in the dinghy
and when you get back.... no auxiliary power... :-)
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
sa...@dog.com
<decypher...@sig.line> wrote:
He could have choosen a better route, or simply waited.
Lots of boats have circumnavigated without a motor at all. Most of
Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
from his surroundings. Microwaves, Widescreen TV's, Hot and cold
pressure water, refrigeration are all OPTIONS. People that climb Mt.
Everest don't have them. People who hike the Appalachian Trail don't
have them. Lewis and Clark didn't have them, and neither did
Christofer Columbus or the Vikings before him.
On land, people crossing the country on foot or on bicycles see and
experience a lot more than those zooming across in Winnebagos,
stopping at night in Walmart parking lots or KOA "campgrounds".
I'm more of a bicycle kind of traveler. I like to be directly in my
surroundings, not perched up high in an enclosure surrounded by glass.
Wayne is certainly welcome to enjoy his boat any way he chooses, but
tio my mind, it doesn't matter how far he travels, because what he
does doesn't sound like cruising to me at all. Just not my idea of it.
sa...@dog.com
<decypher...@sig.line> wrote:
A long shaft sailboat motor is not a very attractive target as the
market for them is miniscule. Much easier to steal, and then get rid
of, the same size motors with short shafts off of RIBS, as well as the
RIBs they are mounted upon.
Dealers don't even like to stock these motors because they are in such
low demand. You usually have to special order them.
Mine would also be "a little awkward" to remove onto a another boat
unless the other boat was a barge with a crane. I would't consider it
much of a target at all.
Bruce In Bangkok
There really isn't much choice of routes between Thailand and India
:-)
>Lots of boats have circumnavigated without a motor at all. Most of
>Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
>from his surroundings. Microwaves, Widescreen TV's, Hot and cold
>pressure water, refrigeration are all OPTIONS. People that climb Mt.
>Everest don't have them. People who hike the Appalachian Trail don't
>have them. Lewis and Clark didn't have them, and neither did
>Christofer Columbus or the Vikings before him.
Of course. Just as many people circumnavigated without sheet winches.
In fact I owned a boat that was rigged with no winches at all, just
exactly as our grandpa had. It also had NO electricity and had cotton
canvas sails.
But I'll bet that your boat uses winches and has synthetic sails and
synthetic lines, and a GPS, and a radio.
This idea that because one is sailing around in a radically
differently designed craft, made from a material that worms won't eat,
painted with some exotic coating that keeps the barnacles off, using
sails that can be put away wet and lines that don't stretch and
winches to allow one man to handle sails without hauling forty miles
of rope, and has a radio so he can summon help when he runs on a
sandbar, and may even has "tow insurance" to pay for a guy to haul him
off the sand bar, is doing the same thing his grandfather was is
ludicrous.
It is a whole new ball game and sailing around in a Tupperware boat
and imagining they are living like John Paul Jones is just
illusionary. How can you make of use of certain products of technology
and ignore the rest and think that somehow you are doing what
Grandpappy did?
>On land, people crossing the country on foot or on bicycles see and
>experience a lot more than those zooming across in Winnebagos,
>stopping at night in Walmart parking lots or KOA "campgrounds".
>
>I'm more of a bicycle kind of traveler. I like to be directly in my
>surroundings, not perched up high in an enclosure surrounded by glass.
Joshua Slocum's book is still available and a replica of the Spray can
be built, just as Slocum sailed her, but how many do you see? For all
the talk about authentic, just like out ancestors did it, sailing, I
don't see many.
>Wayne is certainly welcome to enjoy his boat any way he chooses, but
>tio my mind, it doesn't matter how far he travels, because what he
>does doesn't sound like cruising to me at all. Just not my idea of it.
But until you throw away your GPS, change back to canvas sails and
hemp ropes. Deep six your winches, pull the aluminum mast and
stainless rigging replace with a proper gaff rigged mast and rope
rigging and haul the fiberglass hull ashore to be replaced by a real
cedar on white oak hull, with a laid deck (that leaks) and a manual
bilge pump, all you are doing is saying that the technology that you
use is proper while the technology that someone else uses is not.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
You are talking about all the trouble you went through to get the
motor. The guys that want it just want an outboard. and how much
trouble is it for a couple of guys in a, say 20 ft. fishing boat?
Maybe even three or four guys?
The guy that was murdered down near Langkawi, Malaysia, they came
aboard his boat to get the dinghy. An outboard on an empty boat is
easy money.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
cavelamb
http://tohatsuoutboards.com/Tohatsu-9-8-hp-outboard.html
This model is offered in 3 shaft lengths, to determine shaft length required visit:
http://tohatsuoutboards.com/Tohatsu-FAQ-Shaft-Length.html
or
http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Help.html?Question=Shaft-Length
Vic Smith
I sort of took it he was happy with his OB, and that other people
don't like them. In fact Salty carries radar, so I don't think he
disdains technology.
More about lifestyle choices.
Too many variations to count, but I don't fly. Used to once in a
while to get back to my ship in time after a 72.
But since I don't have to fly, why should I?
Ain't in a hurry. The journey's always been part of the destination
to me. Didn't feel right whenever I flew. I'm here, then there, with
nothing in between.
Anyway, to the real point, the PDQ gives up a lot of room for twin
diesels, and takes on weight. Then there's cost.
There are plenty cruising with OB's and doing just fine.
I don't have a handle on fuel costs.
There are different needs for electrical power, and different
solutions. Fitting a watercooled genset in one of the hulls, for
example, if you just have to have one. Could work.
The genset and tankage wouldn't more than equal
the space of the diesel propulsion in that hull.
I've noticed in many journals cruisers are often in a hurry, even
when there's no real demand for it
Wind pushing you three knots, so you fire up the engine.
Just can't relax for some reason.
Even the fellow in the link I posted.
He does love to sail, but sometimes he cranks up the outboards
to make an anchorage before nightfall when island hopping.
Safety issue, I suppose.
Whatever one's preference, I don't care.
A song lyric comes to mind.
"If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."
Bet that works every damn time.
--Vic
Capt. JG
news:iimu45ph4eep335mk...@4ax.com...
Do you have a problem with following seas potentially drowning the OB? They
can be a problem with inboards.
Bill
How true is this statement!!
The journey's always been part of the destination
> to me. Didn't feel right whenever I flew. I'm here, then there, with
> nothing in between.
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Armond Perretta
>
> Went for a great day sail yesterday ... About 36 miles total ... Ran the
> motor a little ... to get in and out of the harbor, for a grand total of
> maybe about 4 ounces of gasoline ... I wonder how much fuel it would have
> taken a 49 foot Mainship to make that trip? ...
I sometimes notice that even humans with "inferior" equipment (diesel
engines, power-driven vessels, and the like) somehow manage to enjoy being
afloat despite their unenlightened choices. And then there are those who
bother to leave harbor only to return to the exact same location a few hours
later.
Really!
--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare
Gordon
Doing things the old way?
Check the Galway Hookers on this film.
http://www.wliw.org/productions/lifestyle/sailing-channel-theater/cruising-has-no-limits/438/
\ g
Capt. JG
news:7fs3559lhfe5ta3c2...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:51:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jg...@sailnow.invalid>
> but it never seems to happen.
>
> I don't discount the idea that it could happen, so I've tried to make
> everything as sealed as possible including the cover. It would have to
> stay underwater for quite a while for significant water seepage. There
> is one very small drain hole (1/8th inch? on the lowest point of each
> side. I left those open.
>
> Went for a great day sail yesterday. Weather was right out of a Norman
> Rockwell painting. Went out, around Falkner Island, and back. About 36
> miles total. It's really about a 20 mile round trip, but we were out
> to enjoy the day, not run a beeline anywhere. Ran the motor a little
> at about 1/4 throttle to get in and out of the harbor, for a grand
> total of maybe about 4 ounces of gasoline consumed for the day. I
> wonder how much fuel it would have taken a 49 foot Mainship to make
>
Heh... sounds like a great day. 4 oz... that's about a snifter's worth.
I guess I'm fairly ignorant about OBs. I know they have to breathe, so I was
thinking the problem would be with the air intake? With inboards, the main
problem (in an unprotected engine) would be water getting through the
exhaust and killing the engine.
Capt. JG
news:hbs35598jeuq7sdsu...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:40:10 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
>
They are mutually exclusive?? Sorry Bruce, I couldn't help it!
Capt. JG
news:dje455do5c856qo9c...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 10:43:23 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jg...@sailnow.invalid>
> ample air for the engine. I just made it less likely that a brief
> submersion would kill the engine.
>
Ah... I guess given the relatively light boat, the stern wouldn't be under
that long, even if there was a pronounced following sea. And, of course, if
there's wind, you'd likely be sailing not motoring.
Bruce In Bangkok
>On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:45:24 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
>It would not be a very useful motor for them. It has a very long leg.
>It is not an attractive target for theft because it has very limited
>applications.
You don't think that the local lads are expert outboard boys do you.
All they know is that (1) it is a foreign boat, (2) it has a motor
right there in the open (3) we might be able to sell it and (4) I can
borrow my daddy's boat (as long as we put a liter of diesel in it).
>A couple of guys in a 20 foot fishing boat would likely end up with a
>hernia each, or in the water trying to muscle this thing off my boat.
>I'm not worried. Not in the least. It's more likely that thieves will
>steal the nice car I left parked at the Marina while I am out sailing.
Good Lord! How big is that thing? I thought you were talking about an
"auxiliary motor" and since I've got 40 HP I reckoned that a more
dedicated sailor wouldn't have more then 25 and a couple of the local
lads can handle that.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
>On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:40:10 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
>You are either joking or demented, Bruce.
Nope. Only pointing out that people who enthuse about sailing implying
that is the way they used to do it are either joking or illusionary
:-)
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Wayne.B
> Most of
>Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
>from his surroundings.
That is an assumption that does not wash. One of our favorite
cruising activities is to go out in the dinghy, explore the boondocks,
go into town, meet the locals, try their food, see the sights, etc.
For most people, including us, that's what cruising is all about.
*All* of my arguments center around what I consider to be necessary
for reasonable comfort and safety on an extended cruise - one where
supplies are not located on every corner, and a high degree of
reliability and self sufficiency are very desirable. Of course
everyone has different ideas about what that means, and there are
always budget constraints for everyone - that's why I don't have a
fully crewed mega yacht capable of crossing oceans in style. :-)
This all started of course when I expressed the opinion that ouboard
propulsion is not a very good option for long range cruising. No
offense intended toward anyone, I just happen to think it's true for a
number of good reasons and some personal experiences.
Some interesting discussion points were brought out in any case. It
might be interesting to start another thread on what people consider
to be essential or highly desirable on cruising boats, perhaps broken
out by three or more size ranges: Under 30 feet; 30 to 40; 40 and up,
for example. I'd suggest that we should consider what it would take
for your wife to agree to a 3 month cruise on the boat. :-) For you
guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.
Some possible discussion items:
- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.
- Water tankage and/or water maker?.
- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.
- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc
- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?
- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?
- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?
- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?
- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?
- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.
and so on....
Wayne.B
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:01:44 -0500, Vic Smith
><thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Not quite. I follow this couple occasionally, and they have a boat
>>similar to the subject boat. Maybe the same without the stern
>>extensions.
>
>Oops.
>http://www.tendervittles.net/crew.html
We crossed paths with them a few years ago coming south on the
Atlantic ICW in the fall. They spend a lot of time on the VHF radio
for some reason and everyone within 20 miles got to know the name of
the boat after a while.
sa...@dog.com
<decypher...@sig.line> wrote:
Your girlish hysterics, aside, as I said, it's far more likely that my
car will be stolen while I'm out sailing.
Iguess I don't live in fear as you seem to do.
sa...@dog.com
<decypher...@sig.line> wrote:
And who did that? It sure wasn't me.
sa...@dog.com
My wife has already set the ground rules for that day, which will
come. She wants an Island Packet 370. She prefers it to the bigger
models.
Until we are BOTH ready to actually stop working, we have no need of
that boat, and she loves our present boat for what we do now.
>For you
>guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.
>
>Some possible discussion items:
>
>- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.
>
Portabote, oars, sails and 3.5 outboard. Folds up and gets lashed to
the lifelines lke a surfboard. When we get a bigger boat, I'll
probably get the next size up Portaboat from what we have now. I have
had enough RIBs to know I never want another one.
>- Water tankage and/or water maker?.
>
Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?
>- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.
>
>- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc
>
>- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
>blender?, toaster?, freezer?
>
>- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?
>
>- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
>tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?
>
>- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
>recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
>type/size/switching?
>
>- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?
>
>- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
>AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.
>
>and so on....
>
>
Actually, I look forward to reading whatever this generates. Thanks
for keeping the conversation going, Wayne.
Bruce In Bangkok
Oh, I thought we were talking about a "cruising boat". Remember I said
something about an outboard not being ideal for a cruising boat?
And here you are talking about your "car in the parking lot".
My mistake. I was talking about sailing off to foreign shores and you
were talking about an afternoon's sail.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
<waynebatr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I suggest a criteria for the type of cruising. Maybe, day sailing up
the coast where one stops every evening and spares and supplies are
available. Travel to foreign or remote areas where you are pretty much
on your own for several weeks at a time.
I find storage as being the most important factor in determining boat
size. If "provisions" consists of a loaf of bread and a bottle of
jelly for tomorrow's breakfast and peanut butter and saltine crackers
for lunch because we will stop at "hole in the wall" where they have
that darling little restaurant for supper, it is one thing. If you
aren't going to see land for three weeks it is quite another.
Boat size, depending on use but for a couple my opinion is 35 ft.
minimum and 40 ft. makes a more pleasant living space.
Fridge - Damned nice if you are cruising in tropical areas. On the
other hand I would be reluctant to depend on it for long trips as a
failure could be life threatening.
Water maker - Allows you to sail a lighter boat but failure could be
life threatening. Probably a good idea for long distance but should be
combined with a sensible fresh water management system. In any event
you want fairly large water tanks to allow a water management system
to function.
Water system - for long distance cruising a manual pump system. If you
can build a automatic pressure system for marina use and a manual pump
for off shore you have the best of two worlds.
Stove - LPG. You can get it anywhere, a couple of 9 Kg. tanks lasts
for months. It is easy to light and it cooks good.
Microwave, etc. For marina use only.
Autopilot/wind vane steering - YES! A must have item. the vane
steering works only under sail and the Autopilot works both under
power and sail. I see more and more people using autopilots but I'd
prefer both as many autopilots use too much power for reliable use in
long sailing passages.
Battery bank - House and start batteries that are separate. Size
depends on use.
Auxiliary power - Diesel inboard! Shaft drive with no sail drive or
Vee or Zee drives.
I suggest a Baja Filter. I don't have one but I normally refuel from
jerry cans and let them settle before transferring to the tanks.
Fuel Polishing - I consider a system to "polish" the fuel probably
unreliable however a system to cycle the fuel through a water catcher
is not a bad idea. I have gotten water from both shore tanks and fuel
barges.
Fuel tankage - A minimum of several days steaming. If you undertake a
circumnavigation it is likely you will, sooner or later, encounter
extended periods with either adverse wind or no wind.
Communication - VHF for inshore and a Amateur Band SSB with a modem to
be able to use SailMail during cruises. More and more Cell Phone is
used to communicate with marina's so a multi band phone with a system
for the areas you are visiting is nice.
EPIRB is probably a must although in much of Asia it is going to be
several days before anyone goes looking for you.
Dinghy - Probably the most useful dinghy is an inflatable however if
cruising in tropical climates it should be Hypalon as other material
fails quickly in tropical sun light. A dinghy cover is also a good
idea. With the usual inflatable a 5 HP engine is useful.
Finally; lets change the subject name if this thread is going to
continue.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Wayne.B
>Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
>your own food?
No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price. Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.
You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.
Wayne.B
>On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:47:51 -0400, Wayne.B
><waynebatr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, sa...@dog.com wrote:
>>
>>>Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
>>>your own food?
>>
>>No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
>>impossible to obtain at any price.
>
>You cruise in the Sahara desert? LOL
>
The key words are *good potable*.
Have you ever been to Mexico or Central America ? Have you ever had
Montezuma's Revenge (dysentery) ? Remember, we are by definition,
talking about being away from supplies for two to four weeks, maybe
more. We find that our usage is between 5 and 10 gallons per day, per
person using normal amounts. Two people over 30 days would use 300
to 600 gallons at that rate, way more than most boats can carry.
>>Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
>>very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
>>already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
>>going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
>>an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
>>without worrying about draining the tank.
>>
>>You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
>>are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.
>
>There are other ways to supplement fresh water without adding the
>expense and problems of a high maintenence watermaker. I'm not
>surprised by the number of cruisers who think they can't live without
>a watermaker and hot showers.
You and your wife can cruise without showers if you want but not with
us.
:-)
Rick Morel
<waynebatr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Some possible discussion items:
First, let me state that MY WAY is the RIGHT and ONLY WAY...
For me.
YOUR WAY is the RIGHT and ONLY WAY....
For you.
Of course MY WAY and YOUR WAY have to be almost endlessly modified for
an almost endless number of reasons: Money, ability, your/my boat
setup and capacities, etc., etc., etc.
For a bit over 2 years we are a live-aboard, full timer cruiser
couple. The boat is a Pearson Rhodes 41. Not a real roomy 41, she's
long and lean and FAST.
I've lived-aboard and/or extended cruised off and on for a total of
about 8 years.
Having said all that....
>
>- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.
I much prefer a hard dinghy. We have a Sandpiper 8. Power is usually a
small trolling motor or oars. I just got a 2 HP outboard and will use
it for those longer and hurrier trips. Most of the time it's rowed,
except for those places we have to anchor more than about a tenth of a
mile out. When not used it's on davits.
I tried a Porta-Boat and found it much more trouble than it was worth.
I wound up giving it away.
I've had inflatables and my only grip is they really don't row too
well and can be pretty wet in a chop.
We're thinking of getting a WaterTender 9.4. I tried one out and it
has the stability and room of an inflatable, but rows well.
>- Water tankage and/or water maker?
70 gallons in 2 tanks. That's what the boat came with and there's
really no way to add more.
PUR 80E 3.4 GPH watermaker. I wouldn't even consider not having one.
Our cruising is extended stays in out of the way places. I would not
have one if we took occasional weeks or months cruises.
>- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.
Yes for pressure water, hot water and shower-for-two. We have a manual
pump in the galley but it doesn't work. One can conserve with pressure
water. If you can't bring yourself to do it, buy a "water saver" for
each faucet. It screws on in place of the aerator and has a little
rod. You leave the faucet on and when you move the rod water comes
out.
We also have a pressure raw water system plumbed to separate faucets.
One head with a Jabsco toilet going to a Lectra/San. A lot of folks,
including the Princess of Poop, Peggie Hall, bad mouths the Jabscos,
but it's been used ever day for 2 years and another like it was used
every day for 3 years. Never had a problem nor had to rebuild.
>- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc
4 anchors: 45 lb Bruce, 45 lb CQR, 35 lb (I think) Danforth and same
size aluminum Danforth (I think it's 11 lb). The Bruce is the main
one. I swear that thing has a "bottom magnet". We use a dedicated GPS
as an anchor alarm and the Bruce has never dragged. Note too that the
aluminum Danforth sets faster and holds better than the "iron" one. I
don't know why and I suppose it doesn't make sense, but that's the way
it is.
Main anchor rode is 130 ft of chain plus 250 ft. 3/4" line. Secondary
is 40 ft. chain plus 250 ft of 3/4" line.
Simpson Laurence 2-speed manual windless. The gypsy will take any size
chain. In fact the main rode is 30 ft. of 5/16 chain coupled to 100 ft
of 3/8 chain. I think that's the sizes.
>- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
>blender?, toaster?, freezer?
4 burner w/ oven gimbled propane stove, Norcold 110/12 Volt icebox
conversion in re-insulated built in icebox. I would NOT recommend the
Norcold. It doesn't come close to the Adler/Barber I had before.
1,000 Watt compact mirowave, toaster, 110V Haier 1.3 cu. ft. freezer
with decicated inverter.
>- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?
Spot, Ham/SSB radio with modem.
>- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
>tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?
Perkins 4-107 inboard diesel. 40 gallon tank, again that's what the
boat came with and no place to add tankage. We usually carry 20
gallons in jerry cans on deck (I HATE that!). Range is 300 nautical
miles at 6.3 kts to 480 nautical miles at 5 kts, including the jerry
cans.
Standard Racor and inline filters. No polishing system. Oil change is
locking ball valve on oil pan with hose to drop in gallon jug.
To address the ongoing war about diesel inboard vs. outboard: I think
either are fine. An outboard will burn more fuel, but is a lot cheaper
to buy and/or replace. It would take a lot of running to make up the
difference. Some, maybe most, boats would have the problem of the prop
coming out of the water in rough conditions. A longer shaft should
take care of most of this. An old outboard dealer told me one can just
order shaft and foot extensions and put as many together as needed, so
a 4 or 5 or 6 or even 10 foot shaft is not unreasonable.
I had a Morgan 27 with an Atomic 4 inboard. The clutch developed a
problem. I had a 15 HP outboard so fabricated a mount for it. To my
surprise the outboard reached hull speed at about half throttle and
burned the same amount of fuel per hours as the Atomic 4. I eventually
repaired the clutch, but kept the outboard handy in case. I had
decided to sell the boat, but before that decision I thought seriously
about removing the Atomic 4 and going with the outboard.
I would consider a 4-cycle outboard if the Perkins died, but we have
too much overhang, plus the dinghy/davits would have to go. Here goes
another discussion maybe... If the Perkins dies, I plan on replacing
it with a DC electric motor and diesel generator. The motor would
probably mostly be run from the house bank for short periods and
calmer conditions.
>- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
>recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
>type/size/switching?
House bank: 4 golf cart batteris plus 1 deep cycle marine (this was my
trolling motor battery I replaced with a smaller one). 500 Amp Hour
total. I'd like to add 2 more golf cart batteries, but the problem is
room. Engine bank is 2 group 24 marine starting in parallel, with a 10
W solar trickle panel.
Recharging: 600 Watts of solar panels with a Blue Sky MPPT controller;
Air Marine 450 Watt wind generator; 100 Amp Baldor alternator on
engine; Freedom 10 50 Amp charger/ 1,000 Watt inverter.
Inverters: Vector 2,500 Watt, 750 Watt, 450 Watt. The 450 is used for
the flat screen TV and DVD recorder. The 750 is dedicated to the
freezer. The 2,500 is used for the microwave and coffee pot. Note that
the coffee pot takes 70 Amps from the battery, but only takes 5
minutes for a total of 6 Amp Hours.
Generator: 3.5 KW gasoline on cabin top. Yeah, I know. I hate the
thing and always refused to have one. But I bought it last summer so
we could run the marine A/C for my wife. And me too, I have to admit.
It was HOT and this summer seems to be the same. At least it's pretty
quiet. Halfway thinking about getting a Next Gen diesel...
>- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?
Raymarine S1 Wheel Pilot with an old Simrad wheel pilot for a spare.
Wouldn't be without one! I do like the idea of a wind vane, but I'd
prefer to have my dinghy on davits.
>- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
>AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.
2 Garmin GPS color plotter/sounders, 1 old B&W Garmin chartplotter for
anchor drag alarm, wired to LOUD piezo buzzer, Garmin handheld GPS,
Garmin StreetPilot GPS (which works with nautical charts), Navetec GPS
sleeve for one of the Compaq IPaq pocket computers, Delorme serial
output GPS.
4 laptop computers, 3 Compaq/HP pocket computers, all with Nav
software.
DSC VHF down below, VHF at steering station, handheld VHF.
SPOT Satellite Messenger.
19" flat HD TV, antenna on mizzen, DVD recorder with digital conveter,
auto type AM/FM radio with 5 CD changer.
Would like to have AIS, at least receive only, but too durn
expen$ive!!
>and so on....
OGM LED Tricolor/Anchor light and mostly LED interior lights.
No one should criticize another for his/her choices. We're all
different. I've cruised aboard different sized and equipped sailboats
over the last 47 years, and a few powerboats. My first was a 16 ft
Petral with a gasoline camp stove and D-cell running, anchor and
interior lights. The engine was an old 5 HP outboard. I was 16 at the
time and it was a most pleasurable few months. Could I do it now at
age 63? Certainly! Would I? No, I don't think so.
Rick
Wilbur Hubbard
news:7od6559uj9608m8s5...@4ax.com...
<snip>
>
> My mistake. I was talking about sailing off to foreign shores and you
> were talking about an afternoon's sail.
The trouble with you, Bruce, is ALL you do is TALK about it. . . Over thirty
years at the Bangkok dock? Pathetic, man, pathetic!
Wilbur Hubbard
George Orwell
It's pretty sad when a rapist is allowed to go free!
I figured out what happened to this poor boy. 50% or more of 5% of inmates are raped by the jailers.
Gregory Hall = Cecil Warren = CONVICTED RAPIST!
You've failed to register as a SEX OFFENDER. This is punishable by imprisonment!
http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/flyer.do?personId=35467
Call 1-888-357-7332 to report him. He lives in Islamorada, Florida.
Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it
Gordon
I would guess the Rhodes 41 loaded
probably exceeds that by a bit. So how much time/miles do you have on
it and how is the performance in the slop?
Thanks
G
Rick Morel
> I'm curious about the S1. Raymarine says it is rated to 16,500 lbs but
>I would guess the Rhodes 41 loaded
>
> probably exceeds that by a bit. So how much time/miles do you have on
>it and how is the performance in the slop?
> Thanks
> G
By quite a bit, displacement is 24,000 lbs. I really don't understand
that displacement rating. I always go with if a human can steer it, an
autopilot can. I had a 4000+ on a Coranado 35 and it steered over
12,000 nautical miles with no problems, including 15 ft folowing seas.
A friend put one on his 40,000 lb trawler and it worked fine.
Only a couple thousand miles on the Rhodes, but it's done fine on all
points of sail and under power. Twice the S1 turned off with a
"locked" error. Both times under power while pushing through mud.
Under those conditions it's all I can do to budge the wheel with both
hands.
Rick
Wayne.B
<rmorel@m*o*r*e*l*r.com> wrote:
>For a bit over 2 years we are a live-aboard, full timer cruiser
>couple. The boat is a Pearson Rhodes 41. Not a real roomy 41, she's
>long and lean and FAST.
Classic good old boat ! Looks like you've got it nicely equipped
also.
I just realized today that you are also a member of the "Liveaboard
List". I've been on there a long time but mostly lurk. We have met
some of the other denizens at various times however including the
famous "Norm and Jan" duo from Bandersnatch.
Bruce In Bangkok
>On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:57:47 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
>I sail a lot more than you do, Brucie.
You may, or you may not, however that doesn't change the fact that I
specifically a "cruising yacht", not a day sailor. And you replied to
the post about a cruising yacht by talking about your car in the
parking lot.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Bruce In Bangkok
>On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:47:51 -0400, Wayne.B
><waynebatr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, sa...@dog.com wrote:
>>
>>>Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
>>>your own food?
>>
>>No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
>>impossible to obtain at any price.
>
>You cruise in the Sahara desert? LOL
>
>>Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
>>very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
>>already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
>>going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
>>an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
>>without worrying about draining the tank.
>>
>>You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
>>are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.
>
>There are other ways to supplement fresh water without adding the
>expense and problems of a high maintenence watermaker. I'm not
>surprised by the number of cruisers who think they can't live without
>a watermaker and hot showers.
For fully half the year in the monsoon areas there is little or no
rain. You replenish water supplies by either going ashore and toting
it back to the boat or a watermaker :-)
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
cavelamb
>
> You and your wife can cruise without showers if you want but not with
> us.
>
> :-)
>
How much water does it take to shower you, Wayne?
We are doing ot on 1.5 Gallons for the both of us
and having fun doing it (!).
cavelamb
>
>
> No one should criticize another for his/her choices. We're all
> different. I've cruised aboard different sized and equipped sailboats
> over the last 47 years, and a few powerboats. My first was a 16 ft
> Petral with a gasoline camp stove and D-cell running, anchor and
> interior lights. The engine was an old 5 HP outboard. I was 16 at the
> time and it was a most pleasurable few months. Could I do it now at
> age 63? Certainly! Would I? No, I don't think so.
>
> Rick
>
That was a breath of fresh air.
Thanks Rick.
Post more - please!
Richard
Wayne.B
wrote:
>Wayne.B wrote:
>>
>> You and your wife can cruise without showers if you want but not with
>> us.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>
>
>How much water does it take to shower you, Wayne?
>
Don't know but more than it used to.
>We are doing ot on 1.5 Gallons for the both of us
>and having fun doing it (!).
Yes, I can remember the old sun shower on a halyard days. I thought
they held more like 2 gallons though. We used to cheat and heat ours
up with water from the tea kettle, faster that way. Those days are
over, now it's a 20 gallon electric heater. You need that with a
washer/dryer on board and 2 heads. :-)
Rick Morel
<waynebatr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Classic good old boat ! Looks like you've got it nicely equipped
>also.
>
>I just realized today that you are also a member of the "Liveaboard
>List". I've been on there a long time but mostly lurk. We have met
>some of the other denizens at various times however including the
>famous "Norm and Jan" duo from Bandersnatch.
Thanks Wayne.
Yes, I've been on the Liveaboard List a long time. I used to post
quite a lot but not too much now. Norm and I have gone round and round
in the past, but we mostly agree :-)
I was thinking you were familiar.
Rick
sa...@dog.com
<decypher...@sig.line> wrote:
My car has to be somewhere at all times. At home, at work or at the
airport while I'm gone for a month or two. Owning a car does not mean
you aren't a cruiser, Bruce. I'll bet Wayne owns a car or two. He
doesn't take them on board when he crusies, so Iguess he parks it
somewhere, like I do. Sheesh.
On the other side of that coin, I don't consider most liveaboards who
stay in one place to be cruisers. Your BOAT is in a parking lot full
time. Most liveaboards rarely sail, because daily living has taken
over all the functions of the boat. Too much crap aboard and no where
to stow it.
People who live aboard whjile constantly staying on the move are
cruisers. Your home may be floating, but you swallowed the anchor a
long time ago.
sa...@dog.com
A cruiser with half a brain would take the hint and go elsewhere. I
realize you don't have that option and must do without water for 6
months at a time. Surely you don't walk down the dock and go ASHORE to
get water! What watermaker do you have on board? How often does it
require maintenance? How much water does it provide daily? What powers
it?
Oh... you don't need rain to collect water. Probably not enough to
take long showers, but enough to support life.