Thermostat setting
Roger Long
prevent salt precipitation. Putting the new thermostat in today got me
wondering. For auxiliary sailboat service, where there are not that many
operating hours in a season (short up here in Maine anyway), would it be
reasonable to put a thermostat set for fresh water cooling and make
descaling part of each year's layup? The engine would run more efficiently
and I would get more (any, actually) hot water production with the loop
through my hot water tank.
--
Roger Long
RichH
temp. goes over 143-145 deg. F.
Sure you can use a 'hotter' T-stat. But be sure to descale using an
inhibited 'commercial boiler descaling' compound so that you dont
shorten the life of your engine by removing a lot of base metal as
happens when using muriatic, etc. acids. Marine engines dont wear
out, they corrode away from the inside out ... dont use acids to
'pickle'.
Larry
news:47df1a54$0$6137$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
Keel cooler, just like the big boys use. Then you can run Prestone and not
have to worry, right?
I never figured out why sailboats don't all go to keel coolers. They're
perfect for it! Think of all the crap it would get out of the engine
compartment....heat exchangers, seawater pumps, lots of plumbing. I guess
the need for cooling water in the exhaust precludes their use. Too bad....
Roger Long
>
> Keel cooler, just like the big boys use. Then you can run Prestone and
> not have to worry, right?
>
Absolutely! I agree with you 100%. The boundary layer is thick enough back
there that the boat would never feel a keel cooler of the size necessary for
20 HP. It is definitely on my list of things to do but I just got involved
in too many other major projects this winter. I have two unused and capped
through hull fittings right next to the engine and am keeping that area open
for it. That will probably be the centerpiece of next year's work.
--
Roger Long
tsm...@gmail.com
> "Larry" <no...@home.com> wrote
> > Keel cooler, just like the big boys use. Then you can run Prestone and
> > not have to worry, right?
Will you go with a dry exhaust, too?
-- Tom.
Steve Lusardi
Larry is 100% correct here with the keel cooler. I have installed two keel
coolers on my 3-53 Detroit. One is for warm waters and the other for cold
waters. Too much cooling is just as bad as too little cooling. It is
necessary for the water to reach at least 180 F min. I run a 190 F
thermostat. This is to prevent acid build up in the lube oil and the
creation of sludge. I also use a salt water pump that exclusively cools the
exhaust and return fuel to the day tank, so you can use a wet exhaust and a
keel cooler.
Steve
"Roger Long" <str...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47df1a54$0$6137$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Larry
$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>
>
>
A nicely redesigned skeg with cooling tubes inside it seem appropriate
to me. The heat would never get anywhere near the gelcoat to heat the
plastic apart and cause blisters, and the skeg never gets near the
bottom on any sailboat with a fixed keel, anyways, making it an ideal
candidate for heat sink duty. There's plenty of room behind the keel,
in the shadow of the keel's drag, to stand a keel cooling tube off the
plastic, too, just far enough to let cooling water get between plastic
hull and the tubing, but far enough to make it easy to clean out the
marine crap that would love it as a home.
I've always thought pumping seawater INTO the boat to eat the engine
away is just stupid. INSULATED exhausts with proper lagging are safe,
so hot the coking cannot form so they stay cleaner, and the insulation
keeps them from heating up the engine room.
Hell, if we're to run the diesel with a heat exchanger, we need to use
the EXHAUST heat to heat up the INTAKE AIR, making the diesel MUCH more
efficient as hot air is what it's running on in the first place and we
can give it a head start....with the intake heat exchanger.
Remember that wonderful ceramic diesel Toyota invented that ran at 6000F
with NO LUBE OIL and NO COOLING SYSTEM? Boy, that got BURIED in a
hurry! It got way too much mileage and used way to few oil baron
products for the controlling elite, heavily invested in oil.
Let's reincarnate the ceramic diesel, wrap it with a thermocouple pile
below the insulating blanket to recharge the house batteries on waste
heat (Voyager spacecraft still use radioactive decay the same way), put
some titanium tubing in there to heat the hot water tank, and let the
high temperature regenerate the diesel to much higher efficiencies.
What a terrible thought if you own oil stocks....(c;
In that boat, we would never concern ourselves with seawater eating the
engine. The only plumbing to it would be a fuel line.
Larry
a903-073...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> Will you go with a dry exhaust, too?
>
> -- Tom.
>
>
Sure, why not? Every shrimp boat, here, has one....
Larry
@news.t-online.com:
> my 3-53 Detroit
How many thousand hours has your 3-53 got on it?
What a great, SIMPLE engine!
tsm...@gmail.com
> "tsmw...@gmail.com" <tsmw...@gmail.com> wrote in news:de5c6b84-443a-4b84-
> a903-073516d29...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Will you go with a dry exhaust, too?
>
> > -- Tom.
>
> Sure, why not? Every shrimp boat, here, has one....
No, no, I was thinking that would be a good thing as it gets rid of
pumping of sea water into the boat. The work boats around here don't
seem to spend any time muffling or cooling their exhausts. On a
cruising boat, quiet is a blessing and cooling has some practical
advantages... There must be a better way.
-- Tom.
Roger Long
>
> Will you go with a dry exhaust, too?
>
Probably not. Wet exhaust is nice and quiet and it would be easier to just
add a belt driven pump to feed it than to plumb and insulate a dry exhaust
line into the existing space. Space for a dry muffler would be a problem in
my boat. Dry exhausts always exit through a stack in my experience. I'm
not sure about having sea water rolling or splashing up into a hot exhaust
pipe or whether the raw exhaust, un-cooled and un-mixed with cooling water
might be more objectionable in a following wind if coming out the transom.
--
Roger Long
Bruce in Bangkok
There is a trawler in my marina with a keel cooler and water cooled
exhaust. It has a Gardner engine and the owner tells me that the
original raw water pump is plumbed to the exhaust manifold with an
electric pump in parallel as a backup pump.
Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)
Jere Lull
> Hell, if we're to run the diesel with a heat exchanger, we need to use
> the EXHAUST heat to heat up the INTAKE AIR, making the diesel MUCH more
> efficient as hot air is what it's running on in the first place and we
> can give it a head start....with the intake heat exchanger.
Easier to (re)start, maybe, but denser air gives better efficiency.
Think turbocharger. Though marine units are normally used for more
power, aircraft ones make it possible to fly higher, where the air's
much less dense. Oh, and the good turbos are cooled for better
efficiency.
--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
Larry
b96e-9f5...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> cooling has some practical
> advantages...
I suppose Roger, in Maine, would be pleased to have that hot pipe run
through the cabin with its nice, warm aluminum fins making the cabin so hot
you'd have to open the hatch to cool off....in winter...(c;
RichH
> "tsmw...@gmail.com" <tsmw...@gmail.com> wrote in news:97fba7a7-9815-4410-
> b96e-9f5c52c7b...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > cooling has some practical
> > advantages...
>
> I suppose Roger, in Maine, would be pleased to have that hot pipe run
> through the cabin with its nice, warm aluminum fins making the cabin so hot
> you'd have to open the hatch to cool off....in winter...(c;
Roger
Why not just bite the bullet and install a heat exchanger ... and then
have the best of all worlds including an engine that will last one
hell of lot longer, doesnt need to be 'winterized' (as much), etc.
Typical prices would be $575 / 30 hp http://www.atomic4.com/freshwater.html
OR http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?search=action&category=CFWk&keywords=all&template=Templates/B000_storebuilder.html
... all these designed for ~85 deg. F inlet water and with a 15 degree
'approach' ... hell in Maine, etc. with its cold water you could
probably dump the BTUs from a 50+Hp with one of these.
Roger Long
Why not just bite the bullet and install a heat exchanger ...
Good question.
For most of the advantages of fresh water cooling, it would be the best
answer. I'd like to be able to sail all winter and it will get cold enough
up here for the salt water to freeze in the RW part of the system. I
wouldn't be sailing those days but I wouldn't want the boat in the water
unable to run the engine. Heaters are an answer but electricity is
expensive and it adds another layer of complexity.
Installing a keel cooler on my particular boat would also be a snap compared
to refit of conversion parts due to the working space. I could put in a
separate heat exchanger but it would take up a lot of room. If I end up
taking the engine out of the boat at the same time, I'll probably give a
heat exchanger conversion another thought. Since that would probably be for
an engine rebuild, it would be easy at that point.
Another consideration is that keel cooler maintenance is almost
non-existent. Everything that touches salt is on the outside and gets
cleaned when you scrape the barnacles off.
The Verna lift muffler is a puzzle though that I haven't quite figured out
yet. I've got to be sure that any water remaining in it won't freeze in a
way that blocks the exhaust.
--
Roger Long
Bruce in Bangkok
Even in the day of summer it wouldn't be to turn up your nose at it,
after the sun went down.
Larry
91a04c...@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
> hell in Maine, etc. with its cold water you could
> probably dump the BTUs from a ship with one of these.
>
correction....(c;
Larry
news:drt1u3160r0j918jq...@4ax.com:
We're all poking fun at this, but out in my yard is a 1988 Chevy stepvan
that uses exhaust heat from a little Honda EU1000i as the cabin heater-
power generator all winter in SC. It hasn't gotten much use this year,
but I do run the EU1000i little suitcase genset INSIDE the van behind a
cabinet in a sound-absorbing box. The cooling air exhausts into the
cabin, 100% recovery there. The exhaust of this little genset is a
3/8" pipe in the middle of the cooling air outlet that exits after
cooling the muffler. I welded a pipe nipple onto it, screwed on a 90
degree elbow with copper tubing fitting nipple on it. A coil of real
copper tubing superheats the air coming out of the box, then exits the
truck through a hole in the deck. The pipe is so cool outside you can
hold it in your hand after it has been running an hour. Exhaust gas is
cool to the touch, but the water drizzling out condensed inside the
tubing is a "bit warm". Water vapor in the exhaust gets distilled and
dumped overboard underneath. I could recover it, too, to supply the
Porta Potti, I suppose.
It's very efficient, but still quite noisy. 1 gallon of regular gas
provides hot air and a kilowatt of electric power for about 4.5 hours
for $3. In no time it makes the van toasty warm and sure feels great
coming in from outside below freezing. There's so much heat you have to
vent some of it by leaving the door cracked open or you'll roast! Sure
puts out a lot of Btu for the money....
In the spring, I store the little genset and fire off the EU3000is
that's mounted outside under a custom aluminum cover on the portside
rear hatch, a full width swing door. The extra power drives the two
8000 Btu air conditioners all summer, while the "gas heater" rests in
storage...(c;
You can't heat with the 3000 as the exhaust pipe doesn't come outside
the cabinet, but is exhausted inside the cabinet in the cooling air
plenum and impossible to get to...dammit.
My Chinese diesel 6.5KW beast has a dry stack above it. Under emergency
conditions, it would be easy to duct the cooling heat into a house
without filling the house with deadly CO2 from the engine. Just dry
stack the exhaust away from the cooling air intake a ways by putting a
pipe over the existing stack 8' above it and let rising air blow it
away.
Declaration from Hurricane Hugo in '89 - "I will NEVER be in the dark,
again!"
Edgar
"Roger Long" <str...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47e0f09e$0$6133$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> The Verna lift muffler is a puzzle though that I haven't quite figured
out
> yet. I've got to be sure that any water remaining in it won't freeze in a
> way that blocks the exhaust.
Here in Norway, just as we are at the dock awaiting the crane to haul us out
for the winter, we turn off the engine water intake thruhull valve and
remove the flexible hose from it and stick it into a can of antifreeze. We
then run the engine until antifreeze comes out of the exhaust outlet and
turns the water in the sea to blue. That way the raw water system is free
from the possibility of freezing and also has protection from corrosion and
also provides lubrication for the raw water pump impeller when you restart
in the spring.
Roger Long
after the boat is hauled. I hook up the intake to a bucket I installed a
through hull fitting and valve in and run the engine for several minutes
refilling the bucket with fresh water from a running hose. This flushes out
the salt. I then stop the engine and drain it (not necessary on all makes),
put about 3 gallons of antifreeze in the bucket and run the engine until it
is gone.
The reason for the keel cooler is that I am crazy enough to want to be able
to leave the boat in the water in running condition so I can sail on nice
days during the winter.
Some people who keep their boats in late just run antifreeze into the engine
after every sail but that seems inelegant:)
--
Roger Long
Ryk
<47e17034$0$4927$4c36...@roadrunner.com>
"Roger Long" <str...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>That's pretty much exactly what I do here although I like to do it on shore
>after the boat is hauled. I hook up the intake to a bucket I installed a
>through hull fitting and valve in and run the engine for several minutes
>refilling the bucket with fresh water from a running hose. This flushes out
>the salt. I then stop the engine and drain it (not necessary on all makes),
>put about 3 gallons of antifreeze in the bucket and run the engine until it
>is gone.
I have a raw water strainer that's easily accessible so I just open
the lid and pour in plumbing antifreeze as the guys are hanging the
slings around the boat to haul. Works like a charm.
>
>The reason for the keel cooler is that I am crazy enough to want to be able
>to leave the boat in the water in running condition so I can sail on nice
>days during the winter.
How will you retrofit a keel cooler if there were no flow passages
cast into the original keel?
>Some people who keep their boats in late just run antifreeze into the engine
>after every sail but that seems inelegant:)
Glycol based anti-freeze (the automotive stuff) should not be dumped
in the water. Use ethanol based plumbing anti-freeze. It's cheaper,
more ecologically sound and recommended by Practical Sailor for
winterizing. With the strainer trick it is also not too inelegant, at
least not compared to a snow shovel in the cockpit ;-)
Now I have a question. I am a fresh water sailor and my boat is
directly raw water cooled. The engine is an almost 30 year old Atomic
Four that has run in fresh water exclusively and runs fine. What are
the likely consequences of spending some time in salt water and what
should I do about it?
Ryk
Ryk
<frp82p$5fk$01$1...@news.t-online.com>
"Steve Lusardi" <steve...@lusardi.de> wrote:
>Roger,
>Larry is 100% correct here with the keel cooler. I have installed two keel
>coolers on my 3-53 Detroit. One is for warm waters and the other for cold
>waters. Too much cooling is just as bad as too little cooling. It is
>necessary for the water to reach at least 180 F min. I run a 190 F
>thermostat. This is to prevent acid build up in the lube oil and the
>creation of sludge.
If I recall correctly the SAE recommends an *oil* temperature of
180-210F in order to maintain the quality of the lube oil. The
relationship between jacket water temperature and lube oil temperature
will depend on a variety of factors.
Running high performance engines with lube oil temperatures that hit
180-210C requires frequent changes ;-)
Ryk
RichH
>
> Glycol based anti-freeze (the automotive stuff) should not be dumped
> in the water. Use ethanol based plumbing anti-freeze. It's cheaper,
> more ecologically sound and recommended by Practical Sailor for
> winterizing. With the strainer trick it is also not too inelegant, at
> least not compared to a snow shovel in the cockpit ;-)
BS Ethanol based antifreeze will quickly 'boil-out' of an engine -
thats why it isnt used in automobiles. Use propylene glycol ...not as
toxic as ethylene glycol
>
> Now I have a question. I am a fresh water sailor and my boat is
> directly raw water cooled. The engine is an almost 30 year old Atomic
> Four that has run in fresh water exclusively and runs fine. What are
> the likely consequences of spending some time in salt water and what
> should I do about it?
> Now I have a question. I am a fresh water sailor and my boat is
> directly raw water cooled. The engine is an almost 30 year old Atomic
> Four that has run in fresh water exclusively and runs fine. What are
> the likely consequences of spending some time in salt water and what
> should I do about it?
First, remove several of the exhaust manifold bolts, go into the bore
holes with a dental pick; Then with the pick, COUNT how many full
threads of the block are left. If you can count at least 4 or 5
threads remaining inside the bore holes, then put on a freshwater
cooling system. If less 3 or less, your engine has rotted away
internally and should be used only as a mooring anchor. FWC will
prolong the life of an A4 as you can keep the cooling water
temperature near 180 degrees. Keeping in the engine @ 180 deg. F.
(or hotter) will promote blue/black ferrous rust which is protective
of the cast iron block and exhaust manifold. For salt water cooling
typically you need a thermostat that opens at 135 deg. F as if salt
water goes above ~145 deg. F you will start up humongously scale/foul
the engine (But dont 'pickle' with acid with an already corroded block
or you WILL soon have less than 4 threads remaining --- use a
inhibited commercial boiler descaler such as Marsolve or Rydlyme).
For an old A4 I'd keep the 180 degree T'stat and simply use Marsolve,
etc. in it regularly to 'de-salt' the internals often.
To prolong the life of an A4: never ever let the engine 'dry out' as
that will form 'slab rust' internally ... huge chunks or huge flakes
of rust coming loose from the casting; always store an A4 'wet' ....
50:50 antifreeze/water mix. When commissioning after 'wet' storage,
run the HELL out of the engine for several HOURS (180 deg. F) so that
any ferric (red) rust gets 'reformed' by the hot engine temperature to
ferrous (black/blue) rust which is 'protective'.
Bolt on Fresh Water Cooling systems for the A4: www.moyermarine.com
www.indigoelectronics.com
:-)
Ryk
<1da178f1-d73a-45c1...@z38g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
RichH <rhm...@att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Glycol based anti-freeze (the automotive stuff) should not be dumped
>> in the water. Use ethanol based plumbing anti-freeze. It's cheaper,
>> more ecologically sound and recommended by Practical Sailor for
>> winterizing. With the strainer trick it is also not too inelegant, at
>> least not compared to a snow shovel in the cockpit ;-)
>
>BS Ethanol based antifreeze will quickly 'boil-out' of an engine -
>thats why it isnt used in automobiles. Use propylene glycol ...not as
>toxic as ethylene glycol
Ethanol is no good if you are operating the engine, but should be fine
and more ecologically sound for avoiding freezing damage during winter
storage.
Thanks for the other thoughts on raw water cooling.
Ryk